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Allstate Baron Casually Insurance Company in Affiliates North Peculanoi. Welcome

1:09

to the Elisa Childers podcast where we

1:11

equip Christians to identify the core beliefs

1:14

of historic Christianity, discern its counterfeits, and

1:16

proclaim the gospel with clarity, kindness, and

1:18

truth. And I've just had a wonderful

1:20

conversation with my friend Bobby Conway, who

1:23

is coming out this week with a

1:25

new book called Does Christianity Still Make

1:27

Sense? A former skeptic responds to today's

1:29

toughest objections to Christianity. And I

1:31

am very excited about this. I haven't had the

1:33

chance to read the book myself yet, but I

1:35

know Bobby really well and I've talked with him

1:37

on the podcast before at length about his story

1:40

of growing up not in the Christian

1:42

world at all and becoming

1:44

a Christian through the ministry of Greg

1:46

Glory, becoming a pastor, but then going

1:48

through some really significant doubt. And

1:51

so he writes about that. This is sort of his

1:54

autobiography, an intellectual autobiography, I think is what

1:56

he called it. But we talked through a

1:58

little bit about his story. We talked through

2:00

a lot of the things that

2:02

we're seeing in church culture right now, like

2:04

a lot of the scandals, the moral feelings,

2:07

the hypocrisy. We talked

2:09

a bit about the rise

2:11

of the nuns, which are people who

2:13

don't identify with any particular spiritual identity,

2:16

but yet still kind of hold some kind

2:18

of vague spirituality and how we can reach

2:21

that group. I think that Bobby

2:23

is a pastor who has got a pastor's

2:25

heart, especially toward people who struggle with doubts,

2:27

and he's got some great advice for churches

2:30

and for pastors about how to engage people who

2:32

are going through doubts and who might even have

2:34

questions, because as Bobby points out in today's episode,

2:36

which is a highlight for me, there's a difference

2:38

between a question and a doubt, and there's a

2:40

lot more of an emotional component to a doubt.

2:43

So I really hope you get a lot out

2:45

of this conversation. And so here is Dr. Bobby

2:48

Conway. Well, Bobby, always great

2:50

to have you on the show. I loved when

2:52

we got to sit down at Cross-Examine Instructor Academy,

2:54

I guess a couple of years ago now. And

2:57

we talked through a good bit of your story. And I'm

2:59

so excited to hear that your book is finally coming out,

3:01

because I think back then you were maybe

3:03

in the process of writing the book and it was

3:06

a long way off, but it's coming

3:08

soon. So for anyone who

3:10

maybe had missed that episode or isn't

3:12

familiar with you, tell us a little

3:14

bit about yourself. And I'd also

3:16

love for you to give us like a thumbnail sketch

3:19

of your story, because I know we, I do want

3:21

to recommend to everybody who's watching and listening to go

3:23

back into the archives and listen to that episode where

3:25

Bobby goes really deep into the ins and outs of

3:28

his story of walking through doubt and

3:30

addiction, all sorts of different things. But

3:33

give us a thumbnail sketch of that just as we

3:35

start. So we have context for who you are. And

3:38

then we'll get into this, this awesome book that's coming

3:40

out. Yeah, you bet.

3:42

And thank you for having me on. And

3:45

it's good to be with you again on

3:47

your thriving program. I'll say what

3:50

happened in my life was

3:52

totally unexpected. To think

3:54

that I would end up being in gospel

3:56

ministry, I would

3:58

have just laughed hysterically. I

4:00

grew up in California, never heard

4:02

the gospel till I was 19, and

4:04

a teammate that I played baseball with

4:07

took me in college to hear Greg

4:09

Laurie, and I just resonated

4:11

with him because very few times I went to

4:13

church, I didn't understand

4:15

what was going on. It was very

4:18

confusing, and I just found myself

4:20

like a fish out of water. I

4:22

was struggling because I had collected

4:25

a lot of guilt through just

4:28

living promiscuous, you

4:31

know, drugs, alcohol, stealing,

4:34

lying, I mean, you just name it. I

4:36

mean, cheating, I was a

4:38

scrub brush. I mean, I just, I

4:40

didn't have a good value system. I

4:43

was going to high school in Northern California,

4:45

about an hour south of San Francisco. I

4:48

also spent a lot of my growing up

4:50

in Southern California, but at

4:52

this time, after leaving Northern California, it was

4:54

really dark up there. There was not a

4:56

lot of talk about Jesus, and I went

4:58

down to Southern California, and then there

5:01

I'm back where I spent some of my

5:03

early years growing up, and man, all of a sudden I just

5:05

felt like I was bumping into Jesus

5:07

people everywhere. You

5:09

know, there was a big presence of this,

5:11

and I found myself really drawn to this

5:15

pastor, Craig Glory, because he gave me the

5:17

answer to two questions I was looking for.

5:19

What do I do with my guilt, and

5:21

what's the purpose of my life? And

5:24

I found that Jesus eradicated my guilt

5:26

on the cross through placing my faith

5:28

and trust in him, and that he

5:30

came to give us life and life

5:32

abundantly. And it wasn't just this easy,

5:34

you know, beginning journey for me.

5:36

I struggled for about a year and a half

5:38

with several relapses of, you know, hey, I'm going

5:40

to quit on this day, God, I'm going to

5:42

quit on this day. I'm going to stop here.

5:45

And it just didn't work. And

5:47

then finally, you know, I go into recovery, and

5:49

I would do over 400 meetings

5:52

in one year of

5:54

sobriety. And at

5:56

that point, I just came alive

5:58

for the Lord. And I was

6:01

totally uneducated. I couldn't even

6:03

pass the test to get the military. Cheated my

6:05

way through school. And

6:07

I fell in love

6:10

with learning and reading because it was my

6:12

way to get to know this God who

6:14

saved me. And so I started reading and

6:16

studying and consuming. But what I

6:18

ended up doing is I threw my addiction

6:21

without even seeing it into studying.

6:24

And that would send me on an obsessive journey

6:26

where I would go and get my bachelor's

6:28

degree and then go to a four-year master's

6:30

degree and then go get two doctorate's degree.

6:33

Well, somewhere along the line, I was

6:37

so locked in that I was

6:40

doubting this wonderful Christian faith

6:43

that I believed

6:45

in that transformed my life. And

6:47

that's what led me to end up

6:50

writing, does Christianity still make sense? Because

6:53

I thought I might be an apostate

6:55

as I was inching up against the

6:57

edge of leaving it all as I

6:59

was wracked by doubts. And

7:02

I think that's what we're seeing. We call it

7:05

deconstruction, but really in so many cases what it

7:07

is is apostasy. And apostasy is –

7:09

my best understanding of the word is

7:12

somebody who has professed faith in Christ

7:14

and then walks away from that. And

7:17

you call yourself a near apostate at certain times,

7:19

which is why I think your story is so

7:21

intriguing. And especially this book is so interesting. I

7:23

haven't had the chance to read it yet. I

7:25

look forward to reading it. But I

7:28

think we're living in a time where we're

7:30

seeing this sort of mass exodus, this

7:33

deconstruction happen. And

7:35

a lot of that ending up in apostasy.

7:37

And I think there are a lot of

7:39

books that apologists are writing to

7:41

the people who are deconstructing, saying basically things

7:44

like, here are some intellectual reasons to not

7:46

leave the faith, right? Here's X, Y, and

7:48

Z as why Christianity is true. And then

7:50

you have other people sort of like, my

7:52

book is more for the church to understand

7:54

deconstruction. But I think that

7:56

from what I'm reading about your book, it's kind

7:59

of like, you know, Kind of hitting

8:01

the bullseye of talking to the person

8:03

who's experiencing those doubts honest doubts who

8:05

might be a neuropostate like you were

8:08

But it's not just the intellectual reasons, of

8:10

course, that's all interspersed I'm sure knowing you

8:12

but there's there's a real emotional component to

8:15

it as well and and a lot of

8:17

that involves your story I

8:19

remember hearing you talk several years ago, Bobby

8:21

about when you were working on one of

8:24

your PhDs You were reading a lot of

8:26

Nietzsche and and some of this like dark

8:28

more dark philosophical stuff What what effect did

8:30

that have on your soul as you were already,

8:32

you know You're a Christian and you've maybe at

8:34

this point struggled with some doubts Like what affected

8:36

did some reading some of that stuff have on

8:39

your face? Well

8:42

at certain points Assurance

8:45

that I'm longing for I and

8:48

I can remember going to bed What

8:51

it was just fears overwhelming me like, you

8:54

know in my brain I mean, I'm the guy

8:56

that I'll sit outside sometimes and I'll You

8:58

know I'll envision my brain or

9:01

something on a Out in the grass in front

9:03

of me and i'll go there's a three and a half pound of

9:05

mass And that's what I got to work with to figure out the

9:07

cosmos above me And then i'll go okay

9:09

I'm, okay Because you know, my brain is is not

9:11

my mind and then I resolve the tension

9:13

that i'm feeling But there there are

9:15

things that I I can remember laying in bed going,

9:17

you know, i'm Going at

9:20

rapid speeds on a chunk

9:22

of dirt And I

9:24

just need to know that i'm sustained that

9:27

someone holds all this together and

9:31

my My sense

9:33

of of scare was overwhelming. Um,

9:35

and I think some

9:37

of that has to do with just you know

9:40

There's there's the intellectual doubts and there's the

9:42

guy that's prone to anxiety and always was and that

9:44

was part of why I turned to addiction

9:48

To swage the inner angst. So

9:50

i'm you know, i've always been a little bit of a tortured

9:52

soul I guess you could say Um

9:55

and the the creative side and and

9:57

it's that can be a tormenting to

10:00

an individual, but I do

10:02

feel like the thought that troubled

10:05

me was I committed to the Christian faith

10:07

at a young age, and

10:09

I did so without studying

10:11

all the different worldviews. So

10:13

how can I be sure I gave myself

10:15

to the right worldview? Like what if I would have

10:18

went to another setting and I

10:20

would have heard a solution to my guilt and purpose,

10:23

would I have given my life to that? And

10:25

so I didn't have the kind

10:27

of assurance that I wanted, and

10:30

so that made me

10:32

obsessive in search

10:34

of answers. But

10:37

what I didn't realize

10:40

is how much God can

10:42

use doubt and even a level

10:44

of deconstructing to become

10:46

the making of an apologist, because

10:49

I would find myself having

10:51

to think to walk

10:53

away from Christianity is

10:56

only to walk into

10:58

another worldview where I'll inherit

11:00

another set of unforeseen doubts.

11:03

So I would try to envision what

11:06

would be my existential angst if I

11:08

was a Buddhist or if

11:11

I gave myself the new age or atheism.

11:14

And I would just think about all of this, and

11:16

then when God would bring me

11:18

out, it was like an

11:21

amazing gift that my thorn became,

11:23

and it was

11:25

the rose that offered color to

11:28

how beautiful our worldview is in comparison

11:30

to all the other worldview options that

11:32

are out there. Well, that's

11:34

interesting that you said something that kind of

11:36

perked my interest. You said that a little

11:39

bit of deconstructing can be good if it

11:41

leads to a good place. And I'm curious

11:43

to know your definition of deconstruction, because as

11:45

you may or may not know, in our

11:48

book, Tim and I define it as a

11:50

postmodern process of rethinking your theological beliefs, but

11:52

not regarding scripture as a standard. And we

11:54

realize not everybody defines it that way. That's

11:57

the definition we put forth and defend. And

12:00

I'm sure that's not what you mean when you say a

12:02

little bit could be good. So talk a little bit more

12:04

about that. Like, what do you mean when you say deconstruction?

12:07

I just said that nobody's confused about what you're saying.

12:11

Yeah. Well, I think for me,

12:14

um, the way that

12:16

I'm using the term and, and I

12:19

know there is a debate on that and I'm,

12:22

I'm very open to, you know, being

12:24

a little bit more formal and even

12:26

though usage of the term. Uh,

12:28

but I did feel like in

12:31

the middle of it, I was

12:33

rethinking through so much

12:35

of my experiences, like Francis Schaeffer, uh, the

12:39

Christian apologists who died in 1984. He

12:41

told his wife, Edith, I have to go

12:43

back and rethink my

12:46

entire Christian faith. And

12:49

I think what he was experiencing was

12:51

just, you know, this angst. He

12:54

was wondering if he got it right. And

12:56

so he found himself fine

12:58

tuning some of his thinking.

13:00

And so for me, deconstructing

13:03

is not me using the

13:05

term like Jacques Derrida or

13:08

thinking in terms of

13:11

a post-modernity, um,

13:13

or, you know, Michelle Foucault, uh, leotard,

13:16

any of these types of thinkers, it's much

13:18

more of just, Hey, I

13:20

was constructing a faith as

13:22

a Christian. Uh,

13:25

and I was wondering if I was

13:27

in the right house. Yeah. Yeah.

13:29

So some of the walls

13:32

started coming down, but because of the

13:34

confusion, uh, in post-modernity

13:37

and with deconstruction as

13:39

a very, you know,

13:42

big term, especially, uh, you

13:45

see deconstruction happening

13:47

all over the place, uh,

13:49

in our world, it's probably not

13:51

the best term, uh, for

13:54

me to even use as a Christian, but

13:57

for the sake of the,

14:00

emotional experience, your world just feels

14:02

like it's coming apart and you

14:04

feel really undone

14:07

and insecure in a

14:09

time of existential angst and going

14:11

through a dark night of the

14:13

soul. Yeah, that's helpful. It's

14:15

always helpful to define terms and yeah,

14:19

that's really helpful. In your book, you

14:21

take on a lot of really kind

14:23

of explosive topics I would say. They're

14:25

talking about church scandals, the hypocrisy that

14:27

a lot of people see among the

14:30

leaders of the churches, people

14:32

using God's name to oppress others,

14:34

things like racism, why does God

14:36

allow evil. I wonder,

14:39

you know, if all of these,

14:42

I don't know if you would call them

14:44

triggers or things that could propel someone into a

14:46

crisis of faith, what do you think is the

14:48

most, or if there is one that you

14:50

would say is probably the most relevant one

14:52

for right now, what would you say it is?

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16:35

I think it would be tough

16:38

to put any one point on

16:40

this, because I

16:42

can envision different situations. But

16:44

I do think that there are

16:46

some themes that we can

16:49

see. And let's just

16:51

say that the

16:53

form of deconstruction in

16:55

my own experience that I would be

16:58

referring to, it would be doubt that's

17:00

doing something about considering

17:03

the questions that are haunting

17:05

the person. And therefore, sometimes

17:07

when you do something about it, you

17:11

modify, you change, you alter

17:13

some positions that you once had. And

17:16

I think what can happen for some

17:18

people is they can be

17:20

put in too tight of a denominational

17:24

doctrinal box. And

17:27

I think that what we think is really positive is

17:29

a true way to kind of squeeze

17:32

into this a video that captures right out of our Go to

17:34

Remove AAA on our consciousness and under

17:36

Teachers, but there are Consumer Rights Rights

17:38

activists that were running this

17:40

company, whether it's Virginians, if

17:43

they're in a particular place oramp- More than die It exactly

17:45

does that. You know, everything that's going on. So

17:49

expect your own idea and what needs

17:51

it. So in other

17:54

words, it's a traditional doctrinal box. And

17:57

they're only told, you know,

17:59

a handful of years. viewpoints and

18:01

they're not led to understand that

18:03

there are others that are part

18:05

of the Christian faith that hold to this.

18:08

So, for example, I was talking

18:11

to a caller on pastor's perspective,

18:13

a national syndicated radio show to

18:15

call in, where I

18:18

answer questions with my teammate, Brian

18:20

Broderson. And the

18:22

caller said, hey, I'd never even

18:25

heard there were other options as it relates to

18:27

the tribulation. I

18:29

was always a pre-trib, and that's all I ever

18:31

heard. And then she heard me

18:33

talking about leaning toward being a post-trib, and

18:36

she wanted to know more about that.

18:38

And I said, I think it's

18:42

ethically imperative that pastors –

18:46

they don't just teach their

18:48

own one way of everything, but

18:50

they're honest about other views because

18:53

if you have an analytical thinker

18:55

that thinks outside the box,

18:57

well, they might buy into

18:59

your viewpoint at your membership class. But

19:02

then as they start to grow and they

19:05

go down the road and then they start

19:07

coming across alternative positions that blow up some

19:09

of the positions that were given to them,

19:12

then they start to struggle

19:14

with doubts. And that's what happened

19:16

to me. So I think we

19:18

need to figure out a way

19:21

to rethink discipleship for the emerging

19:23

generation, that instead of thinking

19:25

for them, we teach them how to

19:27

think. We let them know the different

19:29

views that are out there. And

19:31

what I told my kids, I was like, look,

19:34

I want you to love God, love people, celebrate

19:36

the gospel. That's great commandment and

19:38

great commission, living, and then enjoy

19:40

learning. Don't try to conquer it. Know that there's

19:42

lots of viewpoints that are out there. Take

19:45

your time feeling those viewpoints out, and

19:48

don't commit too quickly because if

19:50

you do, you'll read something down the

19:52

road that will blow up the committed

19:54

view that you had prematurely, and you

19:57

can start the doubt. Well, this was some of the

19:59

stuff that was happening. happening to me. And I

20:01

think this happens to a lot of people,

20:03

especially in these

20:06

more legalistic denominations. So

20:08

that's one thing that I

20:10

would share. And we could talk about others of

20:13

course. Yeah, no, that's a really

20:15

good one. Because in of course, doing research

20:17

for our book, we had to listen to

20:19

countless deconstruction stories and just kind of live

20:21

in that hashtag and that world for a

20:24

year or more actually that more

20:26

than that. But what that

20:28

is something I really observed in a lot of common

20:31

threads. Every deconstruction story is different, but there

20:33

are common threads that you can find that

20:36

seem to be quite common among the deconstruction

20:38

stories. And one of those was just what

20:40

you've described where maybe they grew up in

20:42

a particular denomination. And you know,

20:44

you mentioned eschatology. That's a big one. Maybe

20:47

it's the age of the earth. Maybe they

20:49

were taught that there's this one specific view

20:51

of the age of the earth and everything

20:53

else is liberal or past date or something.

20:55

And then they find out, oh, there are

20:57

Christians who actually believe this or

20:59

something a little bit slightly different than that. And

21:02

it blows up their worldview because they so

21:04

conflated maybe what would be a secondary issue

21:06

with the actual gospel. Now secondary issues can

21:08

touch on gospel and you got to think

21:11

through all that stuff through. But

21:13

I was also reading, I was just looking up the

21:15

book so I could make sure I get the name right.

21:17

And I didn't have time to look it up, but it's

21:19

Mars and I believe is his name, the historian who wrote

21:21

about the fundamentalist modernist

21:23

split. And although

21:26

I get, I'm sympathetic

21:28

to a lot of the more conservative side of

21:30

that, of course, because I think we're seeing a

21:33

repeat of that with progressive Christianity. But one

21:35

of the things where it seems like they

21:38

made eschatology a primary,

21:41

the pre-millennial view became like

21:43

primary alongside the gospel. And I

21:45

think that potentially has set up some

21:47

people now today to think

21:49

that one very specific view

21:51

of eschatology is the only

21:54

one that is an acceptable view for a

21:56

Christian. And of course, as people

21:58

who believe in objective truth, there is

22:00

only one correct one, but there are different views

22:02

because people are trying to get to what that

22:04

is. And it's not easy. I mean,

22:06

anybody who does a deep dive into eschatology, I

22:08

think will come out a lot more humble about

22:10

their view as I did, certainly, because

22:13

I kind of grew up that way. You know, carry

22:15

Chapel roots, it was like pre-mill was the view. And

22:18

I still have a hunch that may be

22:20

right. But yeah, when we can slate

22:22

a lot of these things, you

22:24

can be a Christian and have a different

22:26

view than pre-millennialism is the point. And

22:29

I think when people don't realize that, then they

22:31

have to not only wrestle with what

22:33

are these other views, but then they

22:35

have to wrestle with what is primary,

22:37

because they weren't really taught that either.

22:39

And so I think that's a really

22:41

good observation you've made about that. You

22:43

talk a lot about

22:46

mental health, and the role

22:48

that that plays with maybe going through certain kinds

22:50

of doubts. And I've thought a lot about this

22:52

too, because even just thinking about it from a

22:55

personality perspective, because I

22:57

remember way back over

22:59

10 years ago, being in the church

23:02

that I wrote another gospel about that ended

23:04

up going progressive, and all

23:06

of the discussions were leaning toward progressivism. And I

23:08

remember even wondering back then, like, is

23:11

this even just a personality thing? Because I

23:13

am so bent toward truth and

23:15

wanting to know what's objectively true, or

23:18

is it seemed like that was considered immature

23:21

or unenlightened or, and it

23:24

was just even a personality trait or a mental,

23:26

you know, a state of your mind, talk about

23:28

mental health and what you think

23:30

how that all relates with doubt and walking

23:33

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25:28

know, it's interesting. You take,

25:30

for example, how one's

25:33

personality makeup can impact them with doubt.

25:35

So if you have a people pleaser that

25:38

struggles pleasing people, and then you're living

25:40

in a culture where we're supposed to

25:42

be tolerant of others, well, how many

25:44

people pleasers are out there? And

25:47

they're moving toward progressive Christianity in the

25:49

name of people pleasing. So

25:51

that can be a temperament

25:53

that somebody has when

25:56

it comes to People

25:58

with anxiety and... Fear at one

26:00

of the things that they want is

26:03

they want the sense of certainty that

26:05

everything's gonna be okay and and you

26:07

know. People. That struggle with

26:09

anxiety in a in a in a

26:11

deep kind of way. I mean, they

26:13

contribute to Rome worry on a daily

26:15

basis, you know? attack? I would

26:17

worry so much in my life elisa

26:19

that if I wasn't worried worried I

26:21

would begin to worry that are not.

26:23

Worry is like you know you got

26:25

a frog wonder set was that suffered?

26:27

Yeah right. You

26:30

know, cause I've I've joked at times you can

26:32

call me that you know, pastor, panic or the

26:34

panic faster. You

26:36

know in amusing a little bit

26:39

of hyperbole but it did this.

26:41

Enter Turbulence can think for a

26:43

anxiety and people and then they

26:46

start. To struggle. With.

26:49

Trying. To assuage that and I

26:51

can go to dangerous places. but

26:53

I think the temperament that that

26:55

identified in my previous book doubting

26:57

towards date on that. Certainly it

26:59

is how I'm wire but I

27:02

think I've noticed this in other

27:04

doubters as well. There's

27:06

a turret type of doubter that to

27:08

get stuck and I call him. Or

27:11

her the obsessive analyzer so

27:13

you can have somebody that's

27:16

obsessive. But. They might not

27:18

be obsessing on doubts. That

27:20

they can be obsessing on you

27:22

know, Wonder Bread or on Netflix.

27:24

But then you can have. Somebody.

27:27

That and analyzer. But.

27:29

They don't obsess so they can unlock. So

27:32

I think of somebody like of William Lane

27:34

Craig. Highly

27:36

analytical, clear

27:38

thinker, and.

27:41

I. Think that he's able to just enough

27:43

unlock. At the end of the day

27:45

he put systems in place and project

27:47

as emails that board of you know

27:49

he he's he's got, his process is

27:51

in place and any is wonderful that

27:53

what he does. but then there's the

27:55

person that is both an assessor or

27:57

in and that's kind of your added.

28:00

In. Coupled with. A

28:03

highly analytical person and.

28:06

You. Can get lost so much in

28:08

the weeds that you can't unlock in

28:10

your constant. It's like the person that

28:13

always keep storm down to make sure

28:15

that the stoves turned off. What?

28:18

He or she knows the stoves turned off, but.

28:21

You keep doing the same thing

28:23

over and over again. In the

28:25

person that's an obsessive analyzer can

28:27

get really stuck. And then

28:29

if you stay stuck long enough

28:31

because the doubt means to be

28:34

in two minds and you can't

28:36

live in two minds for long,

28:38

eventually you'll have to make a

28:40

decision. But if you're. Into.

28:42

My isn't it splits the

28:44

mine. Now you're going to

28:46

get secondary emotional issues because

28:49

the mental torture of not

28:51

being able to be saddled

28:53

about your bullies. If your

28:55

belief matters to you, if

28:57

it's an intimate believe now

28:59

you will go from obsessive

29:02

analyzing to a sense of.

29:04

Anxiety. About the whole deal.

29:07

To feeling like a sham because

29:09

you have questions, to wondering if

29:11

you're secure enough to really be

29:13

able to open up with others,

29:16

to feeling like your. You've.

29:18

Been abandoned or godforsaken

29:20

A to feeling fearful

29:23

about your future and.

29:25

It can lead them to depression.

29:28

Aunts. And. It took me

29:31

to the place. I mean I have

29:33

been suicidal ideation out in up in

29:35

counseling an anti depressants so when I

29:37

talk about this is is like there

29:39

is This was. This. Was a

29:41

man that my wife and kids saw

29:43

is totally sold out. The Jesus. That.

29:46

For several years they started you to see.

29:49

A politeness and me and sitting

29:51

out on a porch at night.

29:53

Trying. To figure lived out. And.

29:56

I'm just an emptiness in

29:59

a hollow. to me, but

30:01

the search was real. But I was

30:03

reading literally hundreds and hundreds of books.

30:06

I became so obsessed that I learned

30:08

to triple speed audible books. I mean,

30:10

I obsessing. I

30:12

mean, I did a sabbatical for 90 days. I went

30:15

through over 100 books, many

30:18

classics. But for every

30:20

book that I would read to chase down a

30:23

set of doubts, I would

30:25

collect another dozen or 20 doubts.

30:27

So the snowball got so

30:30

big that it was crushing me. And

30:32

I it's like the myth of Sisyphus, where he's trying

30:34

to push that gigantic boulder up. I'd

30:36

have these flickers of hope where I think I'm going to get

30:38

this boulder of doubt off of

30:40

me. And then another challenge

30:42

would come in and I'd roll back down

30:45

to the bottom. And it was that process

30:47

started bringing me to the end of myself.

30:49

I was absolutely gutted by it. All

30:59

right, we're hitting the pause button one

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32:56

know, a lot of people listening to

32:58

this have friends and loved ones who

33:00

are in a process that sounds a

33:02

lot like what you've just described you

33:04

walked through. So I

33:06

think you're uniquely positioned to answer the

33:08

question that is asked to me night

33:10

after night when I go and speak

33:13

in churches about things like

33:15

deconstruction and doubt and progressive Christianity and

33:17

all the things. Inevitably,

33:20

I will have at least one older

33:22

couple come up to me and say,

33:24

you know, my adult child is in

33:26

deconstruction. How do

33:28

we respond to them? How do we

33:30

navigate that relationship? Because in some cases,

33:32

it sounds like, you know, in your

33:34

case, you weren't necessarily shutting your family

33:36

and friends out. In some cases, people

33:39

are because they've already decided their beliefs

33:41

are toxic or harmful. But

33:43

the question that they always ask is, how do I navigate

33:45

this relationship? How do I keep my child in my life?

33:48

So I'd love to ask you in those

33:50

darkest moments when that snowball, you know, when

33:52

that boulder is about to crush you, how

33:56

are you hoping the Christians in your

33:58

life will respond to How,

34:00

you know, maybe was there someone in

34:03

your life that responded really well? Or maybe

34:05

somebody who can remain nameless who didn't

34:07

respond the best? And, you know, how

34:09

did those Christians in your

34:11

life help you or hurt you in

34:13

that experience that you were going through?

34:18

You know, I've shared with you before

34:20

about having a relapse with alcohol after

34:22

23 years of sobriety. And

34:26

some of the pain that my

34:28

family went through with the

34:30

church leadership, you know, I chose to

34:32

resign. I could have stayed put. But

34:36

we just didn't feel really loved well

34:38

in it. We're just kind of looking

34:40

at the relapse instead of

34:42

like, well, what led to that? What was going

34:44

on? You know, where

34:46

was your mindset? I want

34:48

to say this for the people who didn't

34:51

hear the first time. You immediately confessed to

34:53

your elder board that you had relapsed. Yeah.

34:56

Yeah. I mean, it might have been within

34:59

four or five days or something like that. Yeah. And

35:03

I did. I went. I talked. And

35:05

it was just it was very disappointing

35:08

because for

35:10

me, I couldn't imagine. I mean, if somebody had

35:12

a relapse, first off, I just said, man, you

35:14

know, that's amazing. God gave you 23 years without

35:16

a drink. That's something. Let's

35:19

let's remember what he did and he can do it

35:21

again. And then let's talk about what made you turn

35:23

that way. You know, and you know,

35:25

it's been said before, if you got a bottle in one hand

35:27

and a gun in the other, take the

35:30

drink. And there's some people

35:32

that get to a place that

35:35

for me, when that happened,

35:39

I hate to say it, but Jesus wasn't

35:41

enough in that moment from where I felt

35:43

because I had wanted some kind of a relief to

35:45

the torture that I felt on the way. And

35:48

sometimes the Lord lets us sit

35:50

in that and he doesn't come to our rescue. Now,

35:52

he is enough, but it didn't feel like it in the moment.

35:55

Now, I Didn't have a gun in one hand and a bottle in

35:57

the other hand. The

36:00

only other but it's of the point is

36:02

is sometimes people get that kind of a

36:04

place in you know take the drink it

36:06

that's where your but hopefully we can help

36:09

you see the Jesus not now as it

36:11

relates to the my doubts and how that

36:13

was handled. I

36:15

think that they did a great job. The

36:17

people that were my life at the church

36:19

when I was going through that at that's

36:21

where I would say I felt like there

36:23

were space to talk. With

36:26

them and I really appreciate that and

36:28

so I feel like in the name

36:31

of just being objective or you know

36:33

yet one season which is tough and

36:35

another season but. And. You.

36:38

Know, I think that and my wife and

36:40

my kids. they didn't really know what to

36:42

do. And. It was very

36:44

lonely to be honest with you with my.

36:47

Wife. Likes his and even with

36:49

church leadership and that's. Partly

36:51

because I feel like. I.

36:54

Was thinking at a level that.

36:57

That. They're not even really thinking about

36:59

and I don't mean that in a derogatory

37:02

way, but it would be unfair to fasten

37:04

my doubts to them at because I don't

37:06

think that they will would have been equipped

37:08

to handle that. Are And so

37:10

that was, Painful. To

37:13

because I did. And then when I

37:15

did share my doubts, I found myself.

37:19

Feeling. Worried that. That.

37:21

The my doubts my be contagious. Yeah

37:23

so like progressive Chris Jones I think

37:25

that they want their stuff to be

37:27

contagious are like a shin. A lot

37:30

of them to say join party of

37:32

just you know getting. I

37:34

was scared to death of leading anybody

37:37

a stray. I and I didn't see

37:39

what I was experiencing upon anybody so

37:41

that made it all the more lonely.

37:45

I so relate without because when I was going

37:47

to my. And pretty significant period

37:49

of doubt myself I was the same way.

37:51

I think there are people who were surprised

37:53

when I finally told the story cause they're

37:55

like late. I knew you during that time

37:57

but I didn't talk to people really about.

38:00

The weekends at the same reasons you mentioned,

38:02

I didn't want to lead anybody else history.

38:04

I didn't want anybody else to have to

38:06

be going through the the horror that I

38:08

was going through inside of my own heart.

38:10

So I didn't talk to a lot of

38:13

people about it. and I think that I

38:15

really relate with that. So you know you

38:17

eat in a in a book. you do

38:19

talk about moral, moral failure, and hypocrisy and

38:21

I can happen on all sides on what

38:23

do you think? It's so vital, especially given

38:26

our current cultural moment right now. to acknowledge

38:28

that there is hypocrisy in the church. The

38:30

dirt on a lot of again deconstruction stories. You

38:32

go back into the history a little bit and

38:34

there's a pastor who you know slept with the

38:36

secretary or are you know youth pastor who was

38:39

it turns out was abusing a lot of the

38:41

kids in the youth group or something along those

38:43

lines on. What's. That what's the

38:45

role that we can play And acknowledging why is

38:47

that so important? In

38:50

it is so scary when you. Think.

38:53

About how much of. This.

38:55

We're seeing right now in particular in

38:57

the sexual moral failings. It's just as

38:59

astonishing to me at least the when

39:01

I look in the news and are

39:04

you know it just the christian leaders

39:06

that are happening. I mean I just

39:08

read yesterday about a pastor in North

39:10

Carolina The got the fight with the

39:12

guy mcdonalds and try to stick his

39:15

head in the fryer flour and I'm

39:17

thinking boy that's not a good look.

39:19

You know the local pastor try to

39:21

drink the dude said. In. In

39:24

the french fries fryer? I mean,

39:26

there's There's just a lot of.

39:28

Instability right now. but I think

39:30

God's exposing a lot right now.

39:33

I really do. I think that he is

39:35

exposing a lot of secrecy, a lot of

39:37

darkness, a lot of sin. In

39:40

it feels like the church. At.

39:43

Times it looks like the church. She

39:45

knows it dying. But I think what

39:47

we need to always remember is. The.

39:50

True Church of Jesus Christ isn't

39:52

shrinking at all. It's expanding and

39:54

growing. Yeah, what's. Getting.

39:56

eliminated is a lot of

39:59

false Christians that really

40:01

just kind of become a

40:04

sore for people to

40:07

look at. Now that's not to say that authentic

40:09

believers don't mess up. Lord knows

40:11

we do, but there's a

40:13

difference between, you know, when you

40:15

see some of the seek on just

40:17

a long secrecy and cover

40:20

up stuff and there's, there's

40:22

a lot of stuff of deception. It's

40:25

really sad. I mean, on so many

40:27

fronts, God has brought down. So

40:30

many leaders. Now I know someone could say, well, you

40:32

had a relapse and I'd say, yeah, I

40:34

hate it. Uh, but my, I set out

40:36

just to see if I could have

40:38

a glass of wine or two, like a

40:40

normal person and drink. And

40:43

it actually snuck up on me. I

40:45

didn't even, I didn't even

40:47

intend to get inebriated when it

40:49

happened. It just absolutely

40:53

just climbed over me. And I thought, wow.

40:55

And I was told when I was 21,

40:57

when I got clean that when you quit,

41:01

uh, you might stay away from alcohol, but that

41:03

that alcoholism, if you, if you pick up

41:06

a drink someday, it'll be like, uh,

41:08

picking up where you would have been. Had you never

41:10

stopped. And, um, and,

41:13

and that was a scary thought for

41:16

me to realize because the, the, the

41:18

relapse that, that, that one

41:20

night was really hard. I mean, I

41:22

was trying to manage stuff, uh,

41:25

for about six months. But I

41:27

wasn't trying to like be, I

41:29

wasn't trying to be evil and go out and,

41:31

you know, hook up with women or I was

41:33

actually trying to cope with a lot of, a

41:36

lot of anxiety in my life and, and,

41:39

and we had things going on without going

41:42

into detail, but there were just some, some

41:44

trials that were going on with, with

41:46

kiddos and stuff that, oh, just the

41:48

depression in our family was so bad.

41:51

And it doesn't make it right. But I do

41:53

think that there's a difference. Oh,

41:55

yeah. Between people who are just knowingly

41:58

going out and sleeping with secretaries and

42:00

going to prostitutes and

42:03

then somebody who's trying to not...

42:05

Yeah, exactly. And then, but

42:08

I hate that it happened, but

42:10

what God can do is He's good

42:12

enough that when we do have these moral

42:16

failings in our life, He's so good that

42:18

He can come along and He can even,

42:21

you know, take the broken and turn it into

42:23

beautiful and He can help

42:25

us with this. And I think as

42:27

it relates to, you know,

42:29

the whole situation with

42:32

doubt, there's

42:34

just such

42:37

a level of people's

42:40

hypocrisy that some people just put their

42:42

hope and stock and trust in people

42:44

so much that when there is a

42:47

scandal, then these people,

42:49

you know, walk away. Well, if

42:51

you leave the church because of

42:53

a scandal, well, you were

42:55

never really following Jesus to begin with.

42:57

We have to follow Jesus because moral

43:00

lapses will happen all the time. We

43:02

see it replete in the Scripture. We

43:05

see it with leaders today. Moral

43:08

failings doesn't, you know, mean Christianity

43:10

isn't true. It just means Christianity

43:12

makes the best sense for what to do

43:14

with people when they morally mess up to

43:16

look for the cross. Yeah, that's a

43:18

great point. And I just want to reiterate, too,

43:21

I think there's such a huge difference between what

43:23

happened with you and then what we're seeing happen

43:25

with some of these scandals because what typically, you

43:27

know, I've had my dad on the podcast to

43:30

talk about his alcoholism. And he

43:32

had a very similar long

43:34

stretch of decades of sobriety

43:36

and then relapsed. Now,

43:38

I think that's been now like 30 years now,

43:41

that second one. But he went through

43:43

that as well. But the difference between what happened

43:45

with you and with my dad is that there's

43:47

humility about it. There's, oh, my

43:49

goodness, forgive me. There's confession. There's,

43:51

you know, and not everyone confesses as quickly

43:53

as you did within a week or two.

43:55

But That's the point, though, is that you're

43:58

saying, look, We're

44:00

all sinners and when we send the bible

44:02

says confess if we confess or since his

44:04

faithful and just to forgive our sins and

44:07

you know they're even could be greater degrees

44:09

of send that involve other people that would

44:11

involve a lot of on you know maybe

44:13

it's about how to call with a restoration

44:15

that could happen over years but what we're

44:18

seeing with the scandals is that you have

44:20

these i'm narcissistic passers that are preying on

44:22

other people and everybody just covers it up

44:24

for years and years and years and and

44:27

gaslight to the victims and you see all

44:29

this stuff going. On in that's a whole

44:31

different category. on in the in, and sometimes

44:33

sadly those things he can be conflated like,

44:35

oh, will you be left with alcoholism see

44:37

are just like everybody else. but aren't we

44:40

all? I mean, my goodness. And so I

44:42

think that I'm it's it's the cover ups,

44:44

it's the continual patterns that never get dealt

44:46

with and end when really? because the bottom

44:48

line is speaking. Sure, you can keep every

44:50

everything in place and the money coming in

44:53

and all that stuff on. So I think

44:55

it's really good that you talk about that

44:57

in your book because we do see a

44:59

lot of. That I'm in the church

45:01

right now and I think that really

45:03

can cause. People. Who wouldn't

45:06

have otherwise fallen into an extreme thing

45:08

of doubt to to fall into that

45:10

I'm You're to write about this group

45:12

that's on. Don't identify with any religion.

45:15

You know you've heard people say I'm

45:17

spiritual, but not religious. These are being

45:19

called the nuns. Not and you enlighten

45:21

a nun in a convent, but nuns.

45:24

And oh, in each other words, those

45:26

who don't really hold a specific spiritual

45:28

beliefs on what she eats kind of

45:30

this new demographic group. What's your take

45:33

on that group? Yeah,

45:36

I mean what's really encouraging

45:38

at least, is the new

45:40

atheism that was kind of.

45:43

Taking. A lot of media

45:45

attention. Writing a lot of books

45:47

by you know, the Four Horsemen?

45:50

are you in? Of lot of

45:52

people were walking away from christianity

45:54

as a result of that, but

45:57

I think we're seeing the bankruptcy.

46:00

Well as that entire movement

46:02

and it as. We

46:04

know we're still left with

46:06

people searching for more now.

46:08

People might not be ready

46:10

to identify as Christian but

46:12

what this tells me as

46:15

are open to. Spirituality.

46:18

And Christianity is obviously his a

46:20

spiritual belief system so it does

46:22

give me hope. I think I

46:24

would. It it does seem

46:27

like you're going to have a better chance

46:29

of. A conversation

46:31

of relating on some things with

46:33

the person who is at least

46:35

open to. You. Know spirituality?

46:37

Ah, but then there are

46:39

people. Sometimes it will fall

46:42

into that category. The just

46:44

don't want to classify themselves

46:46

in any way. But. I

46:49

think after all the new atheism movement

46:51

to see only what five percent still

46:54

remaining atheists at so on that side.

46:56

But the big news that we keep

46:58

hearing about for last three, four five

47:01

six years is these nuns. Those.

47:03

Without a religious affiliation, but

47:05

they still see themselves interested

47:08

in spiritual. And. There's.

47:10

A lot of people that are around us that

47:12

are like that and. They. Are.

47:15

Often, you know, They.

47:17

Don't want christianity because of the moral?

47:20

a straight jacket that they feel like

47:22

they're gonna be a you know it

47:24

experiencing and it's gonna take some time

47:26

because of were living in a culture.

47:29

Where people think that they've been

47:31

freed up. ah, you know thou.

47:33

They can express themselves, but. The.

47:37

Media. Politics in other government

47:39

schools that they're not telling us

47:41

about the consequences, they're just talking about

47:44

the freedom, new gear going experience

47:46

when you just sexually do whatever you

47:48

want, when you just let go

47:50

of everything at. Work. Deconstructing

47:52

ourselves as is as much

47:54

as a country and we

47:56

don't even realize we're or

47:59

org erect. Our own gallows and

48:01

we're going to hang from. It's him.

48:03

There's consequences and one of the benefits.

48:06

Of living the way that I did when I

48:08

was a kid at the drugs alcohol from a

48:10

security is. I just don't buy it when I

48:12

hear about how much fun people are having and

48:14

stuff like that I'm like now yeah yeah I

48:17

mean it. in. And you think about the young

48:19

generation like you really want a man sunday that

48:21

just doesn't know how to say notice sexual impulse

48:23

You really want to person that you can't trust.

48:25

You really want somebody that. You.

48:28

Know is just unfaithful to you that

48:30

has no sense of self control in

48:32

his life? Is that the kind of

48:34

person you want? Because the way we

48:36

talk, that's what you're going to get.

48:38

Just liberal know you know any borders,

48:40

live without any Bauhaus. People.

48:43

See Christianity is something that they need

48:45

to. Tear down because Christianity's the

48:47

oppressor in a depressed as people that

48:49

far from that. Let's get God's eyes

48:52

for on a. Deep. There would

48:54

never have been an Std had we

48:56

follow God's perspective. Think about that. Yeah,

48:58

I'm here. We. Would have trust We

49:00

wouldn't have that strengthen our relationship from cheat

49:02

on each other. We would be breaking down

49:05

the family A would have self control. The

49:08

I think that's pretty does a pretty good things that

49:10

God has in store for us. Less.

49:13

Crazy that that he could get your gadgets. I

49:15

got a little a fire in your bones on

49:17

that costello. Man yeah. I like as. Well

49:21

I also hot and my studio. Sweater

49:26

on the I go toward the end of

49:28

the book, you silly you know. One thing

49:30

we haven't really talked about in this episode

49:33

is that you are a pastor. He has

49:35

her church and you provide some pastoral words

49:37

for churches and who are wanting to love

49:39

and encourage people who are struggling with doubt.

49:42

So what is maybe one absence at the

49:44

Christians can take on right now toward this

49:46

goal of making a turtle place it's more

49:49

hospitable to doubters. Yeah,

49:52

I think that we need to

49:54

listen more, you know? I brought

49:56

my pastoral team together and. ask

49:59

them the share one word that

50:01

they have in this

50:03

year for people to think about, that

50:07

they can tack on to, that they would love

50:10

to live out. And I wanted the pastors

50:12

say a word that they

50:14

would love to see materialized

50:16

in our church. And the word

50:18

that I had was, listen.

50:21

I said, some of

50:23

you guys just go out and you meet with

50:25

somebody and you talk the whole time. I

50:27

said, and then you leave thinking it

50:29

was a great time, but the person's totally drained

50:31

and just met with you because they just listened

50:33

to you talk for an hour. You didn't ask

50:35

any questions. I said,

50:37

let's be the kind of

50:39

church that listens to people's

50:41

stories, that walks with

50:44

people in their stories, that gets

50:46

people to open up. I think

50:48

that we have to let people

50:50

know that it's okay

50:54

to process your doubts with

50:56

us in a church. But

50:58

some churches can come across so rigid

51:00

that people be scared to bring it

51:02

up. So what I do every week

51:05

is I end my message and

51:08

we have 20 minutes of live Q&A

51:11

because I want people to ask questions. So I'm

51:13

in the hot seat for 20 minutes and

51:16

I said, you can ask me questions

51:18

about philosophy, history, your doubts, our culture,

51:20

marriage, whatever it is. This

51:22

is your time. And part of

51:25

the reason for doing that is we're creating

51:27

a culture that says it's

51:29

okay for you to ask

51:31

whatever's on your mind. And

51:33

when somebody does bring something up,

51:37

that would be church uncomfortable, call

51:39

it. I

51:41

just celebrate that moment and I just

51:43

look for that because we're trying to

51:46

create a community that we belong. And

51:48

I tell people all the time too,

51:50

we need to realize everybody in our

51:52

church has arrived through that door and

51:55

we've been shaped by mentors, teachers,

51:58

books, coaches, our parents, our families. pain,

52:00

our traumas, our addictions. We've

52:03

all been shaped differently. And to think that

52:05

somebody could go to a one hour membership

52:07

class, and then we can

52:09

check it off the list and think

52:12

that they're just like us is really

52:14

naive. The culture

52:16

gets customization everywhere. We

52:19

customize your order. We

52:21

customize your cars. We customize your

52:23

clothes. And it's

52:25

still going on to people and Michael's just

52:27

to kind of help them get it clicking

52:33

toe toe. We

52:37

just want that. Thank

52:44

you. I

52:47

got through the whole point step by step.

52:49

I am the only person living the

52:51

right place to go close. You're

52:53

closed, but the church, the

52:57

discipleship center called

52:59

the church. We need to customize discipleship. We

53:01

need to ask instead of sending 30 or

53:04

Christians who've been Christians for 30

53:06

years through basic Bible

53:09

study methods for the 15th time,

53:12

we need to customize and figure out

53:14

where people are at, hear their stories

53:16

and, and, and work with them so

53:18

we know what their wounds are. So we know what

53:20

their doubts are. So we know where they need to

53:22

grow theologically. So that is

53:25

what true shepherding is. And I think when we shepherd

53:27

the church in this kind of way, it will

53:29

be a place where people will love to be

53:32

amongst the herd. I'm so

53:34

happy to hear you say that about, well,

53:36

everything that you just said was great, but

53:38

especially about the Q and a, because in

53:40

our deconstruction book, that's exactly what we're telling

53:42

churches. You've got to start doing a Q

53:44

and a after your sermon because people need

53:46

to know that it's okay to ask any

53:48

question. And it's also okay to know that

53:50

not every pastor knows every answer. And what

53:52

a great opportunity if you don't know the

53:54

answer to model the humility to say, you

53:56

know what? I don't know. Come back next

53:58

week and I'll have a. better answer for

54:00

you. Or, you know, let's

54:02

invite more discussion on that question. I

54:04

think that, I just hope

54:07

that more postures will follow that

54:09

example of what you're doing because I think

54:11

it's so crucial, especially right

54:13

now, Bobby, when everybody has access

54:16

to social media and so many

54:18

different opinions, many of which are

54:20

just like, you know, in the

54:22

deconstruction hashtag, like propaganda, outright,

54:25

prove demonstrably false information,

54:28

to be able to say, look, it's okay for you to

54:30

bring all the questions you might have.

54:32

I mean, it would be so naive

54:34

to think that young people in your

54:36

college group haven't seen a whole bunch

54:38

of TikToks that week that are dismantling

54:40

Christianity. You need to be able

54:42

to welcome that question, like, hey, I saw

54:44

this TikTok that made this claim. How do

54:46

we process that? And I wonder

54:49

if, you know, maybe many pastors are intimidated

54:51

by that idea, but I would just encourage

54:53

any pastor listening, don't be intimidated, just try

54:55

it. And it's okay to say you don't

54:57

know, and then you can learn along with

54:59

your congregation if it's something that you don't know

55:01

the answer to, but at least you can process

55:03

it together. So I'm so thrilled to hear you

55:05

say that, Bobby. Well, as we come to the

55:07

end of our discussion here, is there anything else

55:09

you would like to let everybody know about the

55:11

book? Is there any kind of

55:13

pre-order or what can we be looking for in

55:15

the coming weeks as we're approaching the release date

55:18

of the book? Yeah,

55:20

absolutely. The book

55:22

releases April 24th, and

55:25

so I'd love people to check it out. You

55:28

can pre-order it as

55:30

of now, from what I understand. It's

55:32

being published by Tyndale. I wrote it

55:34

as kind of an intellectual biography. And

55:37

so I start the

55:39

first part off where it's just a biography

55:41

where, you know, I give

55:43

people a story and the story's mine, and

55:45

I just try to be vulnerable. I lay

55:47

my heart out there. I

55:49

share how I went from non-belief

55:52

to belief to questioning my belief

55:54

to belief again. And that's

55:56

kind of that journey. And then I try to

55:59

identify. some of the, you

56:01

know, biggest objections that people have in

56:04

our culture today to Christianity. And

56:06

then I keep trying to use a lot of

56:08

story to carry people through. So they're fast-moving chapters.

56:11

They're short chapters. There's

56:14

also a companion small

56:16

group guide that was

56:18

created, where my son Dawson, who's

56:20

a Gen Z'er, and he's very

56:23

articulate, Tyndale brought both of us

56:25

up, and we did a father-son

56:28

small group series for the

56:30

local church. And we've designed it

56:32

in such a way that people can

56:34

learn how to start talking more

56:37

openly and being honest. And we're just

56:39

giving them these big questions. And then,

56:41

hey, they can talk. Have you ever

56:43

struggled with this? And what does this

56:45

look like? And I think

56:47

to your point, if pastors won't be intimidated, they

56:50

can even go through a book like this with

56:52

their small groups. And then they

56:54

can be teaching some of these points to

56:56

their church. And then they can do some

56:58

Q&A stuff on a broader scale. And

57:00

they don't have to feel the pressure to answer

57:02

all the questions. While I feel like this is

57:04

part of my calling to do this, I still

57:07

bring up teammates to do

57:09

it with me. I don't

57:12

want people to think that I'm the only

57:14

one that does it. And I think it's

57:16

great to bring up some lay people that

57:18

are well-equipped and let the body see that

57:20

they can do it. Because if they just

57:22

see us answering questions, well, that's what we

57:24

get paid to do. That's what we're trained

57:27

to do. So bring up some gifted lay

57:29

people and celebrate what

57:32

God has done in their life. And you

57:35

know that honestly, I love watching other

57:37

people succeed and seeing God use the

57:39

gifts of other people in the church.

57:42

That's what makes it so much fun. And

57:45

I don't want all the pressure of things falling

57:47

on me because I, if I'm

57:49

being honest with you, I sit down and go, man,

57:51

I'm 50 right now. And I'm

57:53

thinking, Lord, if I

57:55

potentially live 30, 40

57:58

more years, how am I not going to jack this? thing

58:00

up again. Like, like, I get, like

58:02

somebody wants to, what do you fear

58:04

the most? And I said, Well, outside

58:06

of God myself, I mean, that

58:09

I get overwhelmed, like, how

58:11

many circumstances could go wrong? Like, Lord, please help me

58:13

to never go into the dark night of the soul

58:15

again, keep me out of there. So I'd ask my

58:18

other requests to be pray for

58:20

me because I'm just trying to figure

58:23

this thing out one day at a time. And I

58:26

want to help people that are hurting. And I want to

58:28

help doubters. And I just want people to know that I

58:31

went out into the deep waters. And I

58:34

truly believe that Christianity still makes sense. And

58:36

I think it makes the best sense of

58:38

all the worldview options on offer. I

58:41

love it. And I love that you've mentioned

58:43

bringing up, you know, support, support staff on

58:45

those Q&A's because, you know, Bobby, when we

58:48

do apologetics events together, and, you know, like

58:50

class examine instructor Academy, and those are some

58:52

tough questions people ask. And in those moments

58:54

when somebody brings up like the evolutionary paradigm

58:57

as it relates to the bacterial flagellum at

58:59

the bottom of the marine layer, I'm really

59:01

glad that Jay Warner Wallace and Greg Coekle

59:03

are up there because I just looked at

59:06

them and I know they'll know, they'll know,

59:08

but I don't know that stuff. So that's great.

59:12

Where can people connect with you online,

59:14

Bobby? Yeah, they

59:16

can, you know, subscribe at my

59:18

YouTube channel Christianity still makes sense.

59:21

The book's called Does Christianity still

59:23

makes sense, but the YouTube channel

59:26

and the podcast is called Christianity

59:28

still makes sense with Dr. Bobby

59:30

Conway. So they can check those

59:32

out and you know, help

59:34

us get the word out. You know, we want

59:36

to help people like you do to stay

59:40

in the Christian faith. Good. I

59:42

want to thank my guest Bobby Conway.

59:44

Be sure and pick up the book

59:47

Does Christianity still makes sense, a former

59:49

skeptic responds today's today's toughest objections to

59:51

Christianity. And if you want help getting

59:53

better training to help yourself be able

59:55

to respond to some of these objections,

59:57

check out Southern Evangelical Seminary who's also

59:59

a sponsor on the podcast. You can

1:00:01

go to ses.edu.elisa, download a free ebook,

1:00:03

see what SES has to offer. I've

1:00:06

been a student, whether for credit or

1:00:08

auditing, for 10 years

1:00:10

now at SES, and I'm so thankful for SES and

1:00:12

all the great training I've had there. So check them

1:00:14

out. And as we pursue Christ, let's

1:00:16

remember to keep a sharp mind, a soft heart, and

1:00:18

a thick skin. We'll see you next time. Always

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