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for the love of home. We

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are covering breaking news this evening

0:36

at Columbia University here in Manhattan

0:38

where protests against the Israel-Hamas War

0:40

in Gaza have been underway for

0:42

several days. Just after 9 p.m.

0:44

Eastern, the New York City Police

0:46

Department breached Hamilton Hall using a

0:49

truck with a ramp. That

0:51

happened almost 24 hours after

0:53

protesters broke into the building

0:55

and occupied it. The NYPD

0:58

says Hamilton Hall is now

1:00

cleared and so is the tent

1:02

encampment on the south lawn of the campus.

1:04

An NYPD spokesperson spoke to NBC

1:06

News shortly after the officers went

1:08

in. The

1:11

building was very heavily fortified. The

1:13

doorways were blocked by soda machines,

1:16

couches, plywood.

1:19

So there were rumors

1:21

that the NYPD used tear gas.

1:23

The NYPD does not use tear

1:25

gas. We use a distraction

1:27

device. It's a device that's thrown. It

1:29

makes a very loud bang. A stun

1:31

grenade. It's a distraction

1:33

device. It makes a loud noise. That allowed

1:35

our officers to get enough time to get

1:38

through the barricades. Columbia

1:40

University formally requested law enforcement's

1:43

help earlier this evening. The

1:45

week's long demonstration escalated after negotiations

1:48

with school officials broke down. Columbia

1:51

issued a statement saying the following, quote,

1:53

The decision to reach out to the

1:55

NYPD was in response to the actions

1:58

of the protesters, not to... Not

2:00

the cause they are championing. We have

2:02

made it clear that the life of

2:05

campus cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters

2:07

who violate the rules and the law.

2:10

NBC News correspondent Antonia Hilton, who has

2:12

been covering the protests at Columbia, joins

2:14

us now. Antonia, tell us what

2:16

is going on there. You've been there for hours. Hey,

2:21

Steph, it has been a pretty unbelievable scene

2:24

here, although right now what you're seeing behind

2:26

me is the aftermath. We now know from

2:28

the NYPD that there have been about 100

2:30

arrests, 40 of them in Hamilton Hall, which

2:32

is that building right behind me here, that

2:35

protesters have been in about 60

2:37

of them since 12, 30 a.m. last night. And

2:41

what we know from students is that there's

2:43

a mix of student organizers who've been part

2:45

of different groups and movements over the last

2:47

several months, but then also the NYPD saying

2:49

that there are outside agitators, anarchists,

2:51

people who have no affiliation with

2:53

Columbia at all, who were leading

2:55

and part of this movement into

2:57

Hamilton Hall. We saw at

3:00

least two buses full of protesters

3:02

leaving the scene here. And

3:04

now the NYPD is saying that most of

3:06

this operation is over, but we're still hearing

3:09

from student staff, students who aren't

3:11

part of the protest movement, by the way, that

3:13

they are being barricaded by officers into their own

3:15

dorm rooms. They sent us photographs.

3:17

We could see officers right in front of

3:19

the doors making it impossible for students to

3:22

move around campus, even if they were very

3:24

clearly identified as not being part of any

3:26

kind of action or protest here. Everyone

3:30

on all sides of this issue, from

3:32

Jewish students who have long felt unsafe

3:34

on the campus, to pro-Palestinian students who

3:36

have felt that their free speech has

3:38

been maligned by the university, to faculty

3:40

members on all sides and of all

3:42

different kinds of disciplines, there's immense anger

3:45

right now, this feeling that it didn't

3:47

really have to escalate to this point,

3:49

that conversations, negotiations could have gone better.

3:51

An example that keeps coming up today,

3:53

Steph, is Brown University. Brown

3:55

had an encampment. Now the encampment is over.

3:57

It's been packed up. because

4:00

the university actually had a dialogue with the

4:02

students and decided that they would bring questions

4:04

about divestment, questions about their investment holdings to

4:07

a board of governors vote, so that the

4:09

university is at least going to look at

4:11

the claims and concerns of the students involved.

4:14

That's not to say that they necessarily will take

4:16

the action the students demand, but at least they're

4:18

recognizing it through a democratic process. And

4:20

that's what people are referencing here as

4:22

a possibility, an olive branch that could

4:24

have been offered. You know, this

4:26

is now going to be the second

4:28

time the NYPD has entered. Students have

4:30

watched their friends and classmates get arrested, bordered

4:33

onto buses, they describe it as something

4:35

that's incredibly traumatizing. Everyone I talked to

4:37

says that they expect to wake up tomorrow,

4:39

still shaken by all of this, especially

4:41

because we heard in a letter from Manoush

4:43

Shafiq, the Columbia president, explaining the decision

4:45

to bring the NYPD in, that they

4:47

plan to have an NYPD presence actually all

4:50

the way past graduation. So graduation is

4:52

May 15th. They want officers here until

4:54

May 17th. That isn't

4:56

making most of the students that I talked

4:58

to feel safer. It is actually making them

5:01

feel more on edge. And there's more concern

5:03

now than ever that this ending moment, what's

5:05

supposed to be this very happy time

5:07

where people come in from all over the

5:10

world to celebrate at Columbia and get ready

5:12

for graduation, that there's really no

5:14

way that it's going to feel like business

5:16

as usual and that it's going to feel

5:18

celebratory for them. And a lot of people

5:20

are in pain and incredibly frustrated right now.

5:23

But they're in pain because the police

5:25

are there or they're in pain because

5:27

of the prolonged protests. Which

5:29

one is it? It's

5:33

both. For many of the

5:35

students, especially in the undergraduate body,

5:37

there is anger about the NYPD.

5:39

I mean, even students who were

5:41

not part of the protest movement,

5:43

who are not necessarily pro-Palestinian,

5:45

describe the sight of seeing

5:47

the NYPD enter first on

5:50

April 18th as traumatizing, As

5:52

really difficult to see people who they see

5:54

in class, who they know, who they like,

5:56

who they do activities with, getting zip tied

5:58

and facing court. I'm in Kansas,

6:01

not something that made them happy. And

6:03

then for Jewish students who have said

6:05

that they have felt targeted, have that

6:07

they dealt with harassment. They've seen anti

6:09

semitic signs and people protesting from all

6:11

over New York coming to Columbia, Us

6:13

because the cameras are here and they

6:15

could get attention and have their fifteen

6:17

seconds of fame that that's been really

6:19

traumatizing for them as well. That's the

6:21

one thing that people here can agree

6:23

on is this feeling that the administration

6:25

has failed everyone on all sides. And.

6:28

Either you hear it from the students, you

6:31

hear it from faculty and staff that at

6:33

some point that live, the leadership here failed

6:35

to figure out a way to make everyone

6:37

feel heard and feel safe. That there should

6:39

have been a middle points because other schools

6:42

other communities seems have been able to find

6:44

more peaceful ways to get the sun. And

6:46

now here's the second time to the N

6:48

Y P D. As entered, another hundred or

6:51

so people are on their way downtown. Going

6:53

to be facing charges and court summons is

6:55

A is not making any one happy. I

6:57

have yet. To meet a single person

6:59

who's rejoicing about this or necessarily feals

7:02

of fully settled or safe at the

7:04

moment and that that's for different interpretations

7:06

and different political bands. but that's the

7:08

one thing people seem to be able

7:10

to com really in the middle on

7:12

subsistence as looking at it as a

7:15

means such an upsetting seen to see

7:17

on a college campus. On these students

7:19

or these these protesters, I'm not sure

7:21

if they're all students and has a

7:23

broken the law. More.

7:27

Cordons and Y P d The people

7:29

who entered Hamilton Hall absolutely did. They

7:31

are planning trespassing and potentially other charges

7:34

are minor. Felony is even and so

7:36

is who may be involved in that.

7:38

Could be facing very serious legal consequences.

7:40

We already know from the university has

7:42

a plan to expel any students who

7:44

were inside Hamilton Hall and part of

7:46

the breach last night or but we

7:49

also know that is a possibility that

7:51

there are these outside actors who would

7:53

also be facing serious charges that may

7:55

really have nothing to do with Colombia.

7:57

At all and that and settling for

7:59

students. Right here. Hearing that there

8:01

may be this element on campus are

8:03

people who they don't know have any

8:05

familiarity or access to on that they

8:07

might have been a collapsing in a

8:09

way. what has otherwise been a day

8:11

after day of of. Fairly.

8:14

Peaceful protests And it's most of what we've

8:16

seen in terms of the encampments and the

8:18

actions they've done their the students who have

8:20

are they built the library. They've invited faculty

8:23

to come in and give talks, an enchantment.

8:25

This. Has been peaceful and there's this

8:28

feeling even from the pro Palestinian students

8:30

who who were. Advocating. For

8:32

since the still have their voices heard

8:34

and to continue the protests, there's this

8:36

feeling now that things have gone really

8:38

far. who's really responsible for this? And

8:40

how did this campus get out of

8:42

control? How much has taken over campus

8:44

life or classes still going on? Now.

8:49

There were really just virtual options today.

8:51

Students are literally right now says barricaded

8:53

into their dorm room they can't even

8:55

walk to go get themselves foods. Student

8:58

reporters trying to access the studio in

9:00

which they broadcast their radio shows are

9:02

they meet with each other? They're reporting

9:04

that they can't even get into space

9:06

is that they typically have complete ownership

9:08

over. That is how lockdown things have

9:11

been there as night after night been

9:13

protests out on the street. here. People

9:15

have been in public having their voices

9:17

heard on all sides on. This but

9:19

tonight the very large public protests that

9:21

was behind me here was disperse and

9:24

audio message from the and Y P

9:26

D went out making very clear that

9:28

anyone who stayed near the state as

9:30

they got ready to move in was

9:32

going to be risking arrest. Thought we

9:34

had were hundreds of people on every

9:37

side pushing up in front of businesses

9:39

of residential home that apartment buildings screaming

9:41

shame on you screaming at the and

9:43

why Pt all night and refusing to

9:45

leave this space or we saw around

9:47

the corner on another. corner of campus

9:50

some of the people who are out on

9:52

the streets were even part of those who

9:54

arrested on this evening so those numbers that

9:56

one hundred that's reflective of a much larger

9:58

a sort of chaos seen on campus,

10:01

only about 40 of those people are confirmed

10:03

to actually be protesters who are in the

10:05

hall itself. My

10:08

goodness, Antonia, thank you for being there.

10:10

I'm glad you are safe. I want

10:12

to bring into this conversation Carmen Vest,

10:14

retired Seattle police chief, Cedric Alexander joins

10:16

us, former member of President Obama's task

10:19

force on 21st century policing

10:21

and the former public safety director for

10:23

DeKalb County, Georgia. Both are

10:25

MSNBC law enforcement analysts and retired

10:28

ATF special agent in charge and

10:30

former hostage negotiator Jim Cavanaugh. Cedric,

10:32

help us out. Obviously, we could

10:34

not see what was happening inside

10:37

that building. Can you give us an

10:39

idea of what police were

10:41

doing? Well,

10:43

I think from all the indication, I think we

10:45

probably can do a little deductive

10:47

reasoning here and make some real

10:50

good predictions or assumptions that they were

10:52

very plentiful in terms of their approach.

10:55

Once they were inside, I'm quite sure they

10:57

were looking for those who were involved in

11:00

the overtaking of that building a

11:02

couple of dozen or so. And I'm quite

11:04

sure they went through each floor of

11:06

that building as well too to make sure

11:08

that that building was secure. So

11:11

I think we all should be very thankful for

11:14

the fact that it appears to

11:16

have ended tonight without incident. But

11:19

they enter into that building and we saw

11:21

it both from the ground and from they

11:24

went upstairs as well through

11:26

to some elevation, some lateral

11:28

elevation. But they

11:31

appear to have secured that scene

11:33

safely for everyone and without incident.

11:35

Chief Fass, as you look at the video of

11:38

Columbia tonight, what stands out to

11:40

you about how the NYPD is

11:42

responding? Well,

11:45

Stephanie, I saw a lot of empathy

11:47

for everyone involved. This is very reminiscent

11:49

of the protests post George

11:51

Floyd that we had in 2020 where several

11:54

people occupied, particularly in Seattle,

11:56

remembering what tents and a

11:59

lot of people. Their own chaos it went

12:01

on the air. smirk at some

12:03

point you why you want to

12:05

protect were first Lunar free speech.

12:07

I sent two daughters the way

12:09

to college and I can only

12:12

imagine what appears of those students.

12:14

Who are you know in many

12:16

ways being threatened or feeling unsafe

12:18

at school. Are you feeling about

12:20

their children you know officer myself

12:22

included When I when officers are

12:24

wants to take young people to

12:26

jail blaze through does has to

12:28

come up playing with his earth

12:30

has to be effective rule of

12:32

law and it cannot be a

12:34

key out and pandemonium show and

12:36

in some instances well these are

12:38

club and for any ah you

12:40

know asking you to be taken

12:42

as you can see the officers

12:44

have been slow methodical and time

12:46

to i am secrecy due south

12:49

of the have to arrest and

12:51

removed from the seen. Him,

12:53

I know, I'm asking you to make

12:55

a best guess. A former police sandpoint.

12:58

Wow those in now at nine o'clock

13:00

at night. as also on Columbia said,

13:02

it made the decision to make this

13:05

a law enforcement matter early this morning.

13:09

Well you know the said what

13:11

he has together the forces they

13:13

have to make a strategic plans

13:15

He saw was a disease they

13:17

brought out of families of officers

13:19

to secure the area around the

13:21

building and question it was seized

13:23

by the protesters. They brought in

13:25

the emergency service you are they

13:28

bear armored vehicle which has a

13:30

hydraulic ramp silly bypass the barricade.

13:32

Ah the first for the you

13:34

know that the protesters it probably

13:36

barricaded only entrances down here. The

13:38

intelligence officers. Knew that the use the

13:40

bear vehicle with the hydraulic ramp to

13:42

enter the second floor will put a

13:45

whole lot officers in there to bypass

13:47

those barricades and then make the arrests

13:49

and work up the floors to the

13:51

top floor which was the of you

13:53

know co the control center of the

13:55

protesters and they for to some barricades

13:58

there they described in of. No

14:00

turnovers, soda machines and couches and so

14:02

forth. In May the arrests. so then

14:04

they went out and a. To

14:07

be on the tent city that was down there in the

14:09

in the. Grassy area so

14:11

it's a very good strategic plan. Very

14:14

methodical, very professional. This is how we

14:16

want America's police to look. This is

14:18

how we wanted the acts tell you

14:21

know stuff, We'll support free speech and

14:23

you know the students' voices are heard.

14:25

Been notes on the news for a

14:28

week or more. Ah, but. Break

14:30

it into buildings are broken windows

14:32

threaten them to burn of the

14:34

buildings. Downs of. You. Know this is

14:36

burglary and breaking and entering, infrared, some arson,

14:38

You know the police, you know just have

14:40

to get their plan and move. There's no

14:43

real great time to do it. I mean

14:45

it's not a residents per se or the

14:47

people although they're coming so you know at

14:49

night I as you know v the New

14:51

York residents of got a free a traffic

14:53

around this time. it's okay to to be

14:56

a good time browsing need on the clock

14:58

and up all the street so I think

15:00

they are my feet. He gets of a

15:02

plus on this and. We.

15:04

Did see it by the way

15:06

and closing the other day it

15:09

Lapd when they brought out there

15:11

special Unit Lapd did at the

15:13

U S C campuses in the

15:15

same thing and overwhelming Sunflower a

15:17

show of officers. They peacefully surrounded

15:19

carefully slowly that the encampment of

15:21

the officers on the Claws bug

15:24

protesters on the Quad. And.

15:26

One by one they've arrested one of

15:28

the time and walk them to the

15:30

of the police hands. Very slow. did

15:32

a great job. Is a

15:34

and white guy that was Lapd the other day

15:36

and this is N Y P D today so

15:38

I think is is very good example of how

15:41

we have to do this. Now the answers As

15:43

protesters You know it's kind of was. As long

15:45

as the violence in a dangerous gone for a

15:47

while than that's what they're paid to do. So

15:49

I give money plus. they

15:51

call them law enforcement as as

15:53

it is their job to enforce

15:56

the law sadrists deal with this

15:58

next set that supposedly there outside

16:01

agitators there and this is

16:03

a campus building meant for

16:05

Columbia University students. Well

16:08

we've seen a number of these types in

16:10

certainly in recent years even following the death

16:12

of George Floyd and even

16:14

there in Columbia where you have

16:16

these outside sources who are

16:18

not affiliated with the city, with the

16:20

university and their job oftentimes so

16:23

solely is to continue this

16:27

type of unrest in those

16:29

communities. They have to be

16:31

dealt with specifically at

16:33

the point of their arrest I'm quite sure

16:35

they will be identified. Some

16:37

of them may have histories of doing this, some

16:39

of them this may be the first time they

16:42

involve these types of incidents but

16:44

they are identified as those

16:46

oftentimes and I think NYPD has

16:49

already indicated

16:51

they're certain that

16:54

there have been individuals from

16:56

outside the city, outside the

16:58

university community there who

17:00

were involved in keeping this unrest

17:03

going. All right thank

17:05

you all so much Cedric, Carmen, Jim I

17:07

appreciate you helping us out tonight. We are

17:09

going to stay on top of this breaking

17:11

news at Columbia University but we also want to

17:13

get to the other big story of the

17:15

day so we return. We're

17:17

breaking down Donald Trump's intense day in

17:19

the courtroom. A key witness

17:21

takes the stand as the former president

17:24

gets in big trouble for violating his

17:26

gag order. The 11th hour just getting

17:28

underway on a very busy Tuesday night

17:30

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18:19

Ashley for the love of home. Donald

18:29

Trump was back in court for

18:31

week two of testimony in his

18:33

New York criminal trial. Today, a

18:35

critical witness took the stand, the

18:37

former attorney for Stormy Daniels and

18:39

Karen McDougall, who took the jury

18:41

inside the catch and kill deals.

18:44

But the day began with judge Marchelin

18:46

holding the former president in contempt of

18:48

court for several violations of the gag

18:50

order and threatening him with actual jail

18:53

time. Lauren Laura Jarrett has the latest.

18:57

Tonight, former President Trump hit with a $9,000 fine

18:59

at his hush money trial with the judge

19:03

finding multiple violations of the gag

19:05

order prohibiting Mr. Trump from attacking

19:08

witnesses now threatening to throw him

19:10

behind bars, saying jail may be

19:12

a necessary punishment in the future.

19:15

Mr. Trump's attorneys had argued it's

19:17

unfair to hold him accountable for

19:20

reposting criticism others have voiced and

19:22

that certain witnesses like Michael Cohen

19:24

frequently attack Mr. Trump. The presumptive

19:26

Republican nominee later deleting the nine

19:28

posts about Cohen and Stormy Daniels

19:31

that landed him in hot water.

19:33

This game is

19:35

not a reason you need to put up

19:37

a constitution. I'm the

19:39

Republican candidate for President of the

19:42

United States. There's no crime. There's

19:45

no anything here. The former president

19:47

joined in court today by son Eric,

19:49

the first family member to attend. The

19:52

prosecution calling Keith Davidson, the lawyer

19:54

who represented Daniels and Karen McDougall,

19:56

two women who say they had

19:58

sex with Mr. Trump. which he

20:00

has denied. Mr. Trump is

20:02

charged with a low-level felony, falsifying

20:04

business records over his reimbursements to

20:07

Cohen, who allegedly made the hush

20:09

money payments. Davidson testifying

20:11

that after the release of that

20:13

damaging Access Hollywood tape, interest in

20:16

what Daniels had to say reached

20:18

a crescendo. But Davidson only testified

20:20

about dealings with Cohen, not

20:23

offering evidence of Mr. Trump's knowledge

20:25

of the plans. Court

20:28

resumes on Thursday, and there will be

20:30

another hearing on Trump's alleged gag order

20:32

violation. With that, let's bring in our

20:34

panel. Susan Glasser is here, staff writer

20:36

for The New Yorker, conservative lawyer George

20:38

Conway, who is in the courtroom today.

20:41

He's actually wearing a jacket today. He

20:43

is also a contributing writer at The

20:45

Atlantic. Katherine Christian joins us as well,

20:48

former Assistant District Attorney at the Manhattan

20:50

District Attorney's office. She is now an

20:52

MSNBC legal analyst. Emile Cottayal is here,

20:54

Department of Justice veteran and former acting

20:57

solicitor general. George, you were our

20:59

eyes and ears in the courtroom today.

21:01

What stood out to you? Well, I mean, there

21:03

wasn't much that was said about the gag order. It

21:06

was a written opinion, and we didn't actually have the judge read

21:08

it in court, other than to say,

21:10

I ruled 9 out

21:12

of 10 for the prosecution. Why? You didn't

21:14

want to waste time? What? Why didn't he read it? Because

21:17

he wanted to get straight to the trial. And I

21:19

think, you know, a lot of the stuff that we

21:21

just heard about what was in the opinion, we didn't

21:23

actually hear it open court. But

21:25

that obviously was very, very significant because he's

21:27

going to have more to say on this

21:29

next week when the second round of, or

21:32

the third round actually, of

21:34

gag order violations is going to be

21:36

discussed. And I think that, you know,

21:38

it's very significant that I

21:41

think that he mentioned the possibility of

21:43

jail. He's not going to impose it

21:45

for the next series of

21:48

events because it occurred before

21:50

he issued this opinion. But

21:52

I Think he's probably, if I had to

21:55

guess, he's probably going to reiterate next week

21:57

when he probably is going to rule more

21:59

quickly. That way because these violations or of

22:01

piece and nine with the can really help

22:03

themselves or is probably going to say that's

22:06

it the next time your hobbies like I

22:08

would do that. I think the next time

22:10

you're running the risk of of on the

22:12

moon ripped his lip you've you've you've violated

22:14

this like like thirteen times or whenever I

22:16

whenever the numbers gonna base and I'm he

22:18

doesn't have to throw the guy in the

22:20

clink for the entire duration a trial he

22:22

gives you say out and going to go

22:25

in for a couple of hours and see

22:27

I like them see to it again no

22:29

go in for. For five hours and

22:31

so on and so forth. And ah,

22:33

I see if Donald Trump will be

22:35

unwise to test that outs. I mean

22:37

he talking about the all of his

22:40

supporters? Well. Or even today after

22:42

is complaining about how the supporting wouldn't

22:44

be were able to get it. And

22:46

there's nothing obstructing these people from getting

22:49

in the ruling. Five people Fair. I

22:51

mean I think a grossly overstated i'm

22:53

his support him. You know,

22:55

against the score sale. What do you

22:57

think were waiting That was a scam? Order his

22:59

talent and are some find himself in a timeout.

23:04

I do think so. I mean

23:06

I think the first thing to

23:08

say stuff and so today's decision

23:10

really underscores to how accustomed we

23:12

article current and Bowman a criminal

23:14

proceedings I mean really enormous thing

23:16

happened today a former President of

23:18

United States with held in contempt

23:20

of court in a felony criminal

23:23

trial in ten years ago that

23:25

was with an unthinkable seamer in

23:27

here to fight another Tuesday. And

23:30

I think as a judge, was actually

23:32

quite protective of Trump. I'm surprised. how

23:34

much prize for you know i think

23:37

the judge should have gone further and

23:39

imposed a criminal sentence suspended it so

23:41

that he would have to serve and

23:43

and could warned front and say what

23:45

you know this is the conference on

23:47

foot what she will do it which

23:49

are doing his job is on the

23:51

table next time to warning trees something

23:54

somewhat similar to it's a my fears

23:56

donald trump is just gonna do it

23:58

again i mean he seems totally consumed

24:00

all his need to attack witnesses and

24:02

to attack the prosecutor. And,

24:04

you know, indeed, if Trump didn't stay up

24:06

every night tweeting about the witnesses and prosecutors,

24:09

maybe he'd actually be able to stay awake

24:11

during this trial. Susan, give

24:13

us a history lesson, because

24:15

this is not just a

24:17

payoff to cover up an

24:19

extramarital affair, because the infamous

24:21

Access Hollywood tape emerged one

24:24

month before the 2016 election. Can

24:27

you remind us why this has become

24:29

so relevant again in this trial? Well,

24:33

that's right. I mean, you know, you

24:35

make a good point. We thought when

24:37

the Access Hollywood tape appeared right before

24:40

the election, and there was dramatic testimony

24:42

about this in the courtroom today, that

24:44

this was going to be the end

24:46

of Donald Trump's presidential campaign. And

24:49

that, in fact, is what the witness testified.

24:51

There are some amazing text messages from 2016,

24:54

in which he said, basically, Donald Trump is screwed.

24:56

That's not the word he used, but this

24:59

game is over. But it wasn't over.

25:02

And so the legal theory, the case that's

25:04

now being presented in this Manhattan courtroom,

25:07

is that, in fact, it was the

25:09

effort to cover up these stories from

25:11

emerging to the voters in 2016 that

25:15

was the theory

25:17

of the case. That was why Donald

25:19

Trump and Michael Cohen were acting to

25:21

buy Stormy Daniels stories. That's at the

25:24

heart of the case that's being presented

25:26

right now. But these allegations about

25:29

Donald Trump and not just Stormy Daniels,

25:31

but another woman, Karen McDougall, goes all

25:33

the way back to 2011. And

25:36

that's the evidence that they're hearing in the courtroom

25:38

right now. And the timeline

25:40

matters, because, Catherine, the jury

25:42

saw this video of Trump

25:44

himself denying allegations from women

25:46

who publicly accused him of

25:48

sexual assault after the Access

25:51

Hollywood tape emerged. They're

25:54

trying to poison the mind

25:57

of the American voter. Every

26:00

woman lied when they

26:03

came forward to hurt my campaign. The 5%

26:05

of the people think it's true and

26:08

maybe 10% think we don't win. How

26:13

effective do you think that was? Very

26:16

effective. For the prosecution. For the prosecution.

26:18

Because first of all, Rona, the executive

26:21

assistant, said that Trump had

26:23

Ms. McDougall's and Ms. Daniels' contact information

26:25

and she even believed she saw Ms.

26:27

Daniels in the waiting area. So his

26:29

denial of knowing either of them is

26:32

false. If he takes the stand, and

26:35

he won't, but let's say he

26:37

did, this will be a way

26:39

to attack his credibility. His lawyers

26:41

now can't say in summation, he's

26:43

never met these women. Here he

26:45

is on tape, basically testifying to

26:47

the jury, but in the way

26:49

that the prosecution wants the jury

26:51

to see him. George

26:54

reportedly, Donald Trump is not

26:56

happy with his lawyer Todd Blanche.

26:58

Todd is not following Trump's

27:00

instructions and he wants to have

27:03

his own Roy Cohn, who once

27:05

was a hard-charging lawyer, so hard-charging

27:08

that he was eventually disbarred. Shouldn't

27:12

this be a moment, I can't even believe I'm

27:14

asking this, where Trump says, Holy cow, I'm a

27:16

criminal defendant. I better actually listen

27:18

to a lawyer? It's

27:21

astonishing. I mean, he manages to create chaos

27:24

wherever he goes. He manages to create chaos

27:26

among his legal teams whenever he has

27:28

a new legal team. I

27:31

think it would be a big mistake for him to

27:33

get rid of Blanche. I mean, Blanche didn't exactly cover

27:35

himself with glory in the

27:37

argument about the gag order, but it

27:40

wasn't Blanche's fault. It was

27:42

basically Blanche was stuck out there defending the indefensible,

27:44

thanks to Donald Trump. I mean, it's Donald Trump's

27:46

fault. I think, and today,

27:48

Blanche is being put in this impossible

27:50

position. He spent a lot of time

27:53

cross-examining that bank witness, the bank

27:55

witness from First Republic, and

27:58

it was really, really quite pointless. just

28:00

a lot of rehash of the direct

28:02

because I think, I mean, I'm guessing,

28:04

speculating, that the reason why there was

28:06

this lengthy pointless cross examination was to

28:08

make Donald Trump happy. But the fact

28:10

of the matter is, the question, the

28:13

cross I would have asked would have been

28:15

like three questions. You never talked to Donald

28:17

Trump, you don't know what Donald Trump told

28:19

Michael Cohen to do, you have no basis

28:21

to conclude that Donald Trump told Michael

28:24

Cohen to lie to you and to the

28:26

bank about what

28:28

these companies and these payments

28:30

were for. And that should have been the

28:32

cross. When he fires Todd Gledge, he might look to hire you.

28:34

Neil, what do you think? Don't think

28:36

so. Yeah, no, I agree with

28:38

George. I mean, first of all, I think everyone,

28:41

including Donald Trump, should have access to a

28:43

great lawyer, it makes the system better. And

28:45

I think it's very important for someone like

28:48

Trump to have a lawyer who's independent enough

28:50

to tell his client when he's over the

28:52

line, as he's been on, for example, violating

28:54

the gag order. I don't

28:56

know Blanche, but he has, as George

28:58

is describing, a really almost impossible path.

29:01

I mean, Donald Trump is any lawyer's

29:03

client from hell. I mean, he has

29:05

a lot of strong opinions, he has

29:07

a lot of wrong opinions, and neither

29:09

of those attributes lend themselves to a

29:11

helpful legal defense, which is why you

29:14

see sooner or later, every

29:16

lawyer, or almost every lawyer that's worked

29:18

for Donald Trump, seems to be like

29:20

A, under indictment, like Eastman or Jeffrey

29:22

Clark or Rudy Giuliani, or they quit.

29:25

I mean, just today's death, another law

29:27

firm, LaRocca Hornick, which had represented Trump

29:29

for a long time, sought

29:31

to withdraw from their case, representing

29:34

Trump earlier, Joe Tachapino did,

29:36

I mean, the list goes on and on. Katherine,

29:39

I have to ask about something else. Harvey

29:42

Weinstein is actually going to be in

29:44

court tomorrow in New York, his

29:46

New York rape conviction was overturned. Can

29:48

you explain where things stand? Well,

29:51

he's gonna get a new trial. So the Court

29:53

of Appeals did not say he was innocent, he

29:55

did not say he's a good guy, said the

29:57

trial judge made mistakes, put too much prey on

29:59

him. judicial allowed the prosecutors

30:01

to put too much presidential

30:04

information before the jury. You're

30:07

only allowed to impeach

30:10

a tax on his credibility on

30:12

cross-examination for prior bad acts that

30:14

goes to their dishonesty, their credibility.

30:17

The trial judge did not just

30:19

allow basically everything the prosecutor wanted

30:21

to ask. So can he go free until

30:23

this new trial? No. His

30:26

lawyers will probably request that bail be set.

30:28

I predicted whoever the judge is because

30:31

that judge is no longer a judge, will

30:33

not set bail. So he's going to stay

30:35

there. And remember, he was convicted in California too. He has

30:37

a whole other case. So yes, there's

30:39

going to be a do-over for the case, but

30:42

he's not going anywhere. Susan, I owe you

30:44

an apology. I'm out of time. Please come

30:46

back soon. But I have to ask quickly

30:48

before we go, George, did Trump

30:50

see you in the courtroom today? You guys know each

30:52

other. He did. He

30:54

did? Yes. And? Well,

30:57

I had a block break and he was

30:59

walking down the center aisle to go out

31:01

for the break. And I happened

31:04

to have a seat right on

31:06

the aisle on the right-hand side. And I'm

31:08

just sitting there and he's walking toward me

31:10

and then he looks and he sees me

31:12

and he gives me this kind of stink

31:14

eye. Yeah, hey, James. This stink eye.

31:16

And I kind of just think, hey.

31:19

I didn't wave. I thought about doing the Caitlin Clark thing,

31:21

but that would have been, I took a little too much.

31:24

I behaved. But no words were exchanged. I

31:27

gave him a little grin and he walked

31:29

off. He didn't say anything. I didn't

31:31

say anything. My goodness. Very

31:33

well behaved. We're both very well behaved people. Okay. That's

31:36

not true for anybody. Susan, I am sorry. We

31:39

did not have more time. George, thank you,

31:41

Catherine. Thank you, Neil. Always good

31:43

to have you here. When we come back,

31:45

we're going to head back to Columbia's campus

31:47

where police have entered Hamilton Hall and taken

31:50

protesters into custody. The latest on this breaking

31:52

story. We need 11,000 people. We need 10,000

31:54

people. We

32:03

are following breaking news this evening. The New

32:05

York Police Department says about 100 people

32:08

have been arrested at Columbia University

32:11

after demonstrators broke into a

32:13

campus building overnight. Police

32:15

say the tent encampment on the university's

32:17

South Lawn has also been cleared. We

32:19

are back with NBC News correspondent Antonia

32:21

Hilton just outside the campus. Tell

32:24

us, what is the scene there right

32:26

now and help us understand the significance

32:28

of Hamilton Hall? Why did

32:31

demonstrators choose to break into that

32:33

building? Well,

32:36

Steph, right now it's eerily quiet

32:38

and you're looking at the aftermath.

32:40

Just a couple dozen officers hanging

32:42

out outside the massive crane that

32:44

had been used by officers to

32:46

enter through a window. That

32:49

is gone now. We watched buses and

32:51

buses of protesters getting carted downtown who

32:53

are certainly facing some charges. They

32:55

are gone now. We're

32:58

hearing from people that they're still barricaded

33:00

in their dorm rooms. Student journalists are

33:02

barricaded in their newsrooms, unable to

33:04

travel and to move freely within their campus.

33:07

So that feeling of tension and in

33:09

some cases fear is still very much

33:11

present. This

33:13

is a very symbolic moment and

33:16

this is a very symbolic space

33:18

because of the parallels between what's

33:20

happening right now and 1968. Hamilton

33:24

Hall is a critically important space

33:26

here at Columbia and

33:28

not just because classes are held here. Important

33:31

administrators and faculty have their offices

33:33

in this space and students have

33:35

come to know and love this

33:37

building but also because it's been the focal

33:39

point of protest first during the Vietnam War

33:41

than again in the 80s and in the

33:43

90s. Students

33:46

have used it much in the same

33:48

way we saw the protesters use it

33:50

last night. They enter, they

33:52

barricaded themselves back in the 1960s

33:54

and then after several days the

33:57

NYPD moved in and

34:00

And in some cases, there was

34:02

sort of a similar scene playing out. In

34:05

their case, it was hundreds of people arrested. And

34:09

they at one point, you

34:11

know, even ransacked a dean's office.

34:14

And you know, there are these kind

34:16

of immediate, obvious physical parallels here. But

34:18

I think also it's a strategic one

34:21

where the people who are behind this

34:23

movement here at Columbia, they want you

34:25

to compare what's happening right now, the

34:28

questions, the concerns and the

34:30

sadness that many Americans feel

34:33

about the current conflict unfolding

34:35

in Israel and Gaza.

34:37

They want you to draw parallels to the moment in 1968

34:41

and all the moral questions that students were

34:43

raising back then. And so what

34:46

better way in their view than to use

34:48

this building that's already seen as this space?

34:51

I mean, when you enroll at Columbia, you

34:53

become a student here, you are taught about

34:55

the protests that happen in this hall. Even

34:58

people celebrate those movements, even

35:00

though in the moment, if you look at the coverage of

35:02

what happened in 1968, those protesters weren't

35:04

celebrated at that time, the university looks

35:06

back on them very fondly. And so

35:08

often what the protesters have been telling

35:10

their friends and their sort of fellow

35:12

classmates in the encampment is that, you

35:15

know, in the long run, we'll

35:17

be looked at as the good guys. We

35:20

may be criticized for what we've done here. But

35:23

ultimately, this is a step, a way to bring

35:25

attention and to talk about something

35:27

happening on a global stage. And so,

35:29

you know, we'll see how people feel

35:31

when the morning comes now, Stephanie, but

35:33

the weight of sort of the global

35:35

pressure and national eyes on Columbia is

35:37

certainly present right now. Antonia,

35:39

thank you so much for joining. I appreciate it.

35:44

When we return, Project 2025 has

35:47

laid out what they want in

35:49

a second Trump term. But now

35:52

we are hearing straight from his mouth

35:54

in a very revealing interview with Time

35:56

Magazine, the editor-in-chief joins us next in

35:58

the eleventh hour. There

36:10

has been a lot of speculation about

36:12

what a second Trump term could look

36:14

like, but in a new sprawling interview

36:16

with Time Magazine, the former guy said

36:19

exactly what he wants to

36:21

do if he wins. That includes, are you

36:23

ready for this? Time

36:26

red states to prosecute women

36:28

who violate abortion bans, firing

36:31

any U.S. attorney who refuses to

36:33

carry out his orders to prosecute

36:35

someone, and a mass deportation

36:37

program led by the military both at

36:39

the border and inside the U.S. If

36:42

these things sound familiar, it could be because

36:44

they line up with the priorities of Project

36:46

2025. The far-right

36:48

program stacks the Trump allies who

36:51

have written the 900-page playbook for

36:53

a second Trump term. Here's a

36:56

passage from that plan, quote, Prioritizing

36:58

border security and immigration enforcement,

37:00

including detention and deportation, is critical

37:02

if we are to regain control

37:05

of the border, repair the historic

37:07

damage done by the Biden administration.

37:10

For more on this, I want to welcome Time

37:12

Magazine Editor-in-Chief Sam Jacobs. Sam,

37:15

this is a stunning piece. What

37:18

stood out to me most, Trump

37:20

says he was too nice when

37:23

he was president. He didn't

37:25

get done what he wanted to do. So

37:29

how should we think of how he'll conduct himself

37:32

if he worked to become president again? Well,

37:34

thank you, Stephanie. Because I'm going to say, not a

37:36

lot of people would call those four years Mr.

37:39

Nice Guy time. Well, I think that's

37:41

the important thing about the moment that we

37:43

are experiencing right now is we keep

37:46

looking backward and we keep looking at

37:48

the present. So we're looking at what

37:50

happened over those four years and this

37:52

daily conversation about the trial, all

37:54

of that is standing in the way of

37:57

getting a clear vision of what the president,

37:59

former president, says he would do if

38:01

he were our next president. Isn't that

38:03

maybe why he'd want to sit down

38:05

and give you 90 minutes two

38:08

days before his trial starts? Why? Because

38:11

here you and I are talking about the

38:13

vision Donald Trump will have instead of us

38:16

talking about Donald Trump, criminal

38:18

defendant facing 80 plus charges.

38:21

That's the man who's going to be on

38:24

the ballot. So while we can speculate about

38:26

what his motivation is, our role at time

38:28

is to be of service to our readers,

38:30

of service to our viewers and say, here's

38:33

what the president himself says is

38:35

going to happen. Donald Trump can feel

38:37

former president, the former president. He remains

38:39

a president just like we would say

38:41

President Obama or president. So when we

38:43

say the president, the president

38:45

is Joe Biden. Donald Trump,

38:48

Donald Trump seems like such a familiar

38:50

figure because he's in our face every

38:52

day and it could seem like he

38:54

doesn't change. But what I think is

38:56

really important is for us to understand

38:58

how the context around him has completely

39:00

changed in the decade that he has

39:02

been in our public consciousness day

39:04

after day after day. So you can look at

39:06

the courts, you look at Congress, you look at

39:09

the people who are surrounding him in his administration.

39:11

You know, he didn't have a team of rivals

39:13

coming in when he entered the White House in

39:16

2016, but he did have people who came

39:18

from completely different regions of the Republican Party.

39:21

Look today at the people who will be

39:23

coming with him. It's a completely different set

39:25

of people, completely different set of ideas. And

39:27

when you talk about Project 25, 2025,

39:29

what we see is an intellectual

39:32

and legal framework that has been

39:34

developed around the former president, building

39:36

an entire conception of what

39:38

it would take for him to get done,

39:41

what he wants to get done. That's completely

39:43

different. So is it fair for us

39:45

to assume, I love that you're making

39:47

this point because we talk about Project

39:49

2025 almost every night here. And right

39:51

now it's not an official Trump document.

39:53

It's not. It hasn't been

39:55

endorsed by him. But based on everything he

39:57

said in this interview, does it seem that

40:00

his goals are directly aligned with what

40:02

it says in those 900 pages, which

40:04

are as far right

40:06

and Christian nationalist as a guess. I

40:09

would say Donald Trump's goals are aligned with Donald

40:11

Trump, and there are now people situated, the Stephen

40:13

Millers of the world and others who have spent

40:16

a long time figuring out how can we best

40:18

enact that vision. That's very different than the environment

40:20

that we saw while he was in the White

40:22

House. Yes, but Donald Trump changes depending

40:24

on who's supporting him. Donald Trump was

40:26

once a Democrat. Donald Trump

40:29

was once loose and had an open view

40:31

on abortion and now look at him. So

40:34

Donald Trump changes based on who's going to

40:36

put him in office. And the ability for

40:38

Donald Trump to get done changes based upon the

40:40

people who are around him. This

40:42

is very different. He talked about firing

40:44

U.S. attorneys who will not,

40:47

who will, who won't, excuse

40:49

me, he talked about firing U.S.

40:51

attorneys who are unwilling to prosecute

40:53

people that he wants to see

40:56

prosecuted. What would his

40:58

Justice Department overhaul look like? Because I

41:00

think people hear something like that in

41:02

passing, but that would drastically

41:05

change what our three separate but equal branches of

41:07

government look like. And that's just one little example.

41:09

I think that's one piece of it. You look

41:11

at the Justice Department, you look at things like

41:14

enforcement of impoundment, you look at things like Schedule

41:16

F. These are things that maybe are just interesting

41:18

to people sitting inside the beltway, but they could

41:20

have a huge impact on the policies and politics

41:23

of our government. And Donald Trump has spent a

41:25

long time and the people around him trying to

41:27

figure out, well, if I want to do this,

41:29

how do I do it? So the DOJ is

41:31

just one example of all of these places where

41:34

we see what we call in the article,

41:36

the rise of what would be an

41:38

imperial presidency. His theory of the

41:40

presidency and the people around him and what

41:42

they want to do with it is different

41:44

than what we've seen since Nixon. And what

41:47

they think they can do is completely rewrite

41:49

the rules of how the president has worked.

41:52

For his supporters, this is wonderful. And for those who are

41:54

not going to vote for him, I think it's very important

41:56

to understand what he wants to get done and understand that

41:58

he now has an ability to... to put this

42:00

vision into place that he hasn't had before. What was

42:03

so interesting to me today, I mean, this

42:05

is an extraordinary piece that you all have

42:07

put together. This afternoon, Trump's

42:09

team seem to be pushing out some

42:11

of the content as well as the

42:14

Biden campaign. I

42:16

think this interview is a roadshot test

42:18

and shows where everyone is along the

42:20

spectrum and it gives everyone an opportunity.

42:22

Hillary Clinton shared this as did the

42:24

Trump campaign to each say, look at

42:26

this interview and see what it tells

42:28

you about what Donald Trump would do as president. It's

42:32

a snapshot of our

42:34

country. Take the same piece of

42:36

information and some people say it one way

42:38

and some people say it another. An

42:41

amazing, amazing piece. Thank you so much for

42:43

joining me tonight. I really appreciate it. More

42:45

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43:19

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angie.com. That's A-N-G-I, or

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download the app today. An

43:54

update to that breaking news on

43:56

Columbia University's campus. We are getting

43:58

our first look inside. Hamilton Hall,

44:00

where demonstrators broke in and barricaded

44:02

themselves last night. Pictures just in

44:05

show shattered glass and furniture tossed

44:07

throughout the building tonight. New York

44:09

City police cleared out the building

44:11

and arrested about 100 demonstrators on

44:13

campus. They also cleared the tent

44:15

in campus, which was on the

44:18

South Lawn. We're going to

44:20

continue our coverage tomorrow. It

44:23

has been a long night. And on that

44:25

note, I wish you a good night. Ari

44:27

Melber is up next. We'll look back on

44:30

Trump's criminal trial today. And from

44:32

all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News,

44:34

thanks for staying up late. We'll see you at the

44:36

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