0:00

Um, how are you? Most

0:05

people answer that question with fine

0:07

or good. But

0:11

obviously it's not always fine and it's usually

0:13

not even that good. This

0:17

is a podcast that asks people to be honest

0:19

about their pain. To

0:22

just be honest about how they really feel.

0:26

About the hard parts of life. And

0:30

guess what? It's

0:32

complicated. I'm

0:35

Nora McInerney. And

0:37

this is terrible. Thanks

0:39

for asking. It's

0:42

almost like that Pandora's box of like, are we

0:44

sure we want to go there, Nora? Like, are

0:47

we sure we want to open that door in

0:49

the back of my brain, like past the dust

0:52

and the cobwebs? Are

0:55

we actually gonna

0:57

hit that Willy Wonka red button and

0:59

blast into that space? If

1:04

you've been listening to our show

1:06

since the beginning, you might recognize

1:09

that voice from our seventh episode,

1:11

titled Unbroken. That

1:14

voice belongs to Sarah Super, a

1:16

rape survivor who lived through many people's

1:19

worst nightmare. In February

1:21

2015, Sarah was moving

1:23

on from a breakup with her ex-boyfriend,

1:25

Alec Neal. She and

1:27

her mother had gone to Mexico for

1:29

a girls trip and Sarah returned to

1:31

her St. Paul, Minnesota apartment feeling

1:34

refreshed and peaceful. She

1:37

didn't know that Alec Neal had been hiding

1:39

in her closet waiting for her to return.

1:42

She didn't know that he had a knife and a sheet. She

1:45

didn't know that after she unpacked and got ready

1:47

for bed, he would rape her,

1:50

cut her, and that she would escape

1:52

with her life. And that he

1:54

would flee and that she would find herself

1:57

in a legal system that shames and silences

1:59

victims. and that she

2:01

would be the one to break that silence

2:04

and make the space for others to do the same.

2:07

She didn't know that she would become a

2:09

voice for survivors of sexual

2:12

violence. In

2:14

2015, Sarah was profiled in

2:16

the Minneapolis Star Tribune, which

2:18

is where I first heard her story. I still

2:21

remember putting down the actual newspaper and

2:23

rushing to find a way to contact her

2:26

and let her know what her story meant

2:28

to me. And I wasn't the

2:30

only one. A bunch of

2:32

survivors reached out to me at that point. The

2:35

stories that struck me the most were the

2:38

people who I had grown up with,

2:40

the people who I'd gone to college and high

2:42

school with, and the women

2:44

in my life who I knew as these precious

2:46

little girls. And now to hear them and

2:51

reconnect with them after so many years

2:53

over this experience of

2:55

violence that we shared. And

2:58

so it was those people that I just felt like

3:01

this is happening to so many of us. And

3:03

it made me grateful to have

3:05

spoken out, but there's also been

3:07

so many experiences that I feel like I've

3:09

had to deal with because so many

3:12

people are learning about sexual violence and

3:14

how to respond to survivors at

3:17

my expense. When

3:23

I broke the silence, I think there was

3:25

actually in some ways an illusion that I

3:27

was being really supported. And I

3:30

certainly wanted to carry on with my

3:32

life, and I don't really even know

3:34

what support would look like because there

3:36

are not enough kale salads and bubble

3:38

baths to heal anyone from their sexual

3:40

assault. And this is a huge myth

3:43

that self-care heals trauma. It's

3:45

a total denial of understanding

3:47

what trauma is and how

3:49

traumatic experiences happen. And traumatic

3:52

sexual violence happens in the context

3:54

of a relationship. So it's not

3:56

necessarily romantic relationship, it's just the

3:58

relationship between two. to living

4:01

human beings, right? It could be strangers,

4:03

it could be family members, it could

4:05

be school and student, it could be

4:07

whoever it is. It

4:09

happens between people as

4:12

human beings. And so to say

4:14

to a person that you can heal in

4:17

isolation is to actually negate

4:19

the fact that the damage that's done

4:21

is the damage that's been done

4:24

between people and that what

4:27

you really actually need, I think, is

4:29

for people to rebuild your sense

4:31

of trustworthiness, that people are worth

4:34

trusting, that the world is ultimately

4:36

good and that people, that

4:39

you are deserving of being loved. I

4:45

ended up running into people,

4:47

you know, six months, eight months, nine

4:49

months later, and just in the grocery

4:51

store at a movie theater. And it's

4:53

like, it's at that moment where it's

4:55

awkward and they have to bring up

4:57

the fact that they didn't say anything

4:59

and they'll say something like, Sarah, I've

5:01

been following your story and thank

5:04

you for what you're doing. And it's

5:07

nice and you're glad that they at least

5:09

acknowledge the fact that they know. And at

5:11

the same time, it's like, I don't wanna

5:13

have to be reminded of this everywhere I

5:15

go. And I can

5:17

say that if you knew me previously

5:20

as a human person and you

5:22

knew this happened to me, it's

5:25

almost as if to say that you're

5:28

consuming this as a story, as if

5:30

following my story is like, what's next?

5:32

You know, chapter three, Alaket

5:35

sentence, you know, chapter four, break

5:37

the silence day. It's

5:39

like, it's actually my life. I'm

5:41

a real person, this really happened to me. Why

5:43

do you think people don't say anything? I

5:46

think most people have said, I didn't know what

5:48

to say or I didn't know what to do.

5:51

And so I would like

5:53

to create a culture where survivors of sexual

5:56

violence can say what has

5:58

happened to them. And... get

6:00

the support and the reaction that they

6:02

deserve, which I think is an outpouring

6:05

of validation and compassion. And

6:07

so I have actually kind

6:09

of taken it on myself to try

6:11

and teach some people that it's important

6:13

that you say something because your silence

6:15

feels like apathy. And it's

6:17

the same apathy I felt from my perpetrator while

6:20

he assaulted me. So it's

6:22

a powerful feeling. When

6:25

Sarah says that she took it upon herself to

6:27

teach people, she really took it upon

6:29

her self. Sarah created

6:31

an organization called Break the Silence,

6:34

which held events where other survivors

6:36

could come and break their own

6:38

silence about what they had survived.

6:41

These were calm, holy, and

6:44

heartbreakingly full spaces where

6:46

anyone could stand up and tell their story

6:48

no matter where or when or how it

6:51

happened and be met with ears

6:53

and hearts that were truly listening, with

6:56

eyes that didn't look away even when they

6:58

were filled and overflowing with

7:00

tears. Where

7:02

survivor stories were not met with

7:04

silence but with the same sentences

7:07

over and over. You are

7:09

strong. You are courageous. You

7:12

are inspiring. I believe

7:14

you. I stand with you. And

7:18

I watched for years as Sarah showed

7:20

up for survivors in this way and

7:22

in many others, from protests

7:25

in the freezing cold to

7:27

media appearances to building America's

7:30

first ever permanent memorial to

7:32

survivors of sexual assault, a

7:34

literal monument in

7:36

Minneapolis. Today

7:39

the nation's first permanent memorial to

7:41

survivors of sexual violence will be

7:43

dedicated in Minneapolis. It's located at

7:45

Boom Island Park. I spoke with

7:47

Sarah Super, a victim survivor who

7:49

spearheaded the effort about the memorial

7:51

and the dedication. It's

7:54

the first of its kind in the United

7:56

States. And for those who haven't seen it,

7:59

Sarah didn't just... like the silence, she

8:01

made sure to keep making noise. Because

8:04

Alec Neal was convicted and sentenced to

8:06

12 years in prison, but someday

8:09

he would get out. And

8:11

when we first spoke in 2016, this

8:14

was a very big, very real

8:16

fear. I fear the

8:18

day he gets out. Because

8:21

it wasn't just rape, you know, because

8:23

that night was going to keep

8:25

going. And I escaped whatever else

8:27

he had planned, but there are,

8:29

you know, signs, the

8:31

duct tape that he filled

8:34

his car with and left in my closet.

8:36

And the notes that he wrote, I mean,

8:39

one saying, I'm going to gut you from head

8:41

to gut you with a G. I'm

8:44

going to gut you from head to toe. I just,

8:47

you know, he left these notes.

8:49

Yeah, in the closet that he

8:51

was hiding in and

8:55

face masking gloves and bedsheets. You know,

8:58

I asked the police when they're getting

9:00

all this stuff. I'm like, what are the bedsheets for,

9:02

you know, and thinking maybe he

9:04

would have raped me on his own clean bedsheets.

9:06

And I don't know. Yeah, I have sheets. Why

9:08

would you bring me? It's

9:10

like, I probably asked the same thing. Yeah.

9:13

And their response was usually to carry

9:15

a body. When

9:17

we talked in 2016, Sarah told us

9:19

that Alec would have to serve two

9:21

thirds of that 12 year sentence, which

9:24

put his release date somewhere around

9:26

2023. In 2016, that felt like kind of

9:33

a long way off. But in the summer

9:35

of 2023, when I ran

9:37

into Sarah at a human resources conference,

9:40

the date had come and gone. Alec

9:43

was free. And Sarah was at a

9:45

human resources conference in a branded

9:48

polo shirt, totally out of

9:50

context for how I and many

9:52

other people knew her as

9:54

synonymous with her rape and

9:57

with the work of supporting survivors of

9:59

sexual violence with her organization Break

10:01

the Silence. And

10:03

I was out of context too. I was a speaker

10:05

at the event wandering around an expo floor

10:07

and we both glitched a little. What are

10:10

you doing here? What are you doing here? How

10:12

have you been? And Sarah

10:14

told me that she had been good, that

10:17

Alec had gotten out of prison and that

10:19

she had stepped away from Break the Silence,

10:22

the organization that she had founded

10:25

and dedicated her time to since 2015.

10:28

It was entirely a job but

10:31

also not a job. It was

10:33

unpaid, it was volunteer, it was

10:35

self-directed, totally self-motivated. I don't think there was

10:37

ever a person who would have said like, oh,

10:39

I'll do that and I'll do it for free

10:41

too. And so I could never

10:43

step aside and I never felt like

10:45

I was able to opt out

10:49

or necessarily to... At some point

10:51

it became so significant

10:53

and so public that I felt like

10:56

it was hard to even slow the pace

10:58

down or just to like, hey everybody, Sarah

11:00

needs a break. I

11:02

really wasn't able to do that. And it also

11:05

would go against kind of my

11:08

inner instinct and drive to

11:10

actually slow down. But the

11:13

workload was... It

11:16

wasn't like a job description. It

11:18

really was me interacting

11:21

with the world and namely

11:24

survivors of sexual violence who had never

11:27

gotten the support they deserved and

11:29

actually feeling like, okay, I have

11:32

time, privilege, money, energy, a personal

11:34

story, a personal connection to do

11:36

something with that. And so I

11:39

did a lot of things. I was an

11:42

event organizer, I was a

11:44

volunteer manager and recruiter.

11:46

I fundraised $700,000 plus

11:48

to build a memorial to

11:50

survivors of sexual violence that's now

11:52

constructed in Minneapolis. I

11:55

was a lobbyist at the Capitol as a

11:57

volunteer for five years trying to pass a

11:59

law. Law in Minnesota, which got passed

12:01

in 2021. I

12:04

organized a choir for a few years of my

12:06

life that I felt like would be healing for

12:08

survivors to just be able to sing. I

12:11

was an activist that I organized

12:13

protests and public demonstrations, and then

12:15

also just like an

12:18

educator. I wanted to have a social

12:20

media presence that I thought gave people the information

12:23

they needed to support survivors in their life.

12:27

And in all of these accomplishments, Sarah

12:29

also had a paying job, a

12:32

career as a training consultant. So

12:34

Sarah would work during the day for her job

12:37

and at night and weekends

12:40

at her calling. I'm actually

12:42

proud. I really feel like it was truly

12:45

like movement oriented. It wasn't like, oh, we're

12:47

a nonprofit and we're going to set our

12:50

strategic plan for the next three years. And

12:52

here's what we're going to execute. It

12:55

was like, oh my God, this story in

12:57

the newspaper just hit and now we're going

12:59

to do this. You know, hashtag me too

13:01

went viral. And the next day

13:03

we had a launch petition to eliminate the

13:06

criminal statute of limitations to reporting

13:08

sexually violent crimes in Minnesota. And so it

13:11

was that fluidity that I think allowed

13:13

us to get so much done. But

13:15

also another way of seeing that is

13:17

saying like, oh, there really weren't boundaries here. Oh

13:20

yeah. And I mean, all of that, all

13:22

of those things that you listed, they are so impressive.

13:24

They are so many things to be proud of. They're

13:27

also such big things to

13:29

do on top

13:31

of having a job

13:33

that pays you being someone's

13:36

daughter, someone's friend, being

13:39

a person in the world and also working

13:43

through your own traumatic

13:46

experience. Yeah. And

13:48

I was even, as I was thinking about talking

13:50

to you today, I was thinking about how

13:52

it's actually

13:54

easy. I would almost

13:56

find it easier to

13:59

rerecord that. episode where

14:01

I'm it's easier for me

14:03

to tell my rape story than it is

14:05

to talk about Break the Silence. Like

14:08

it's easier to tell people what happened

14:10

to me on that personal level where

14:14

I feel a sense of solidarity and

14:16

connection. It's harder for me to talk

14:18

about Break the Silence where I felt

14:22

really alone. Like there

14:25

are so many people who know the wounds

14:27

of rape and sexual violence. There

14:29

are very few people who know what

14:32

it's like to go through the court process.

14:35

You know talking to people about like what

14:37

is it like to write a victim impact

14:39

statement is one example of like I'm privileged

14:42

to get to that to

14:44

have that experience but

14:46

I'm also it's

14:49

isolating and I would say that

14:51

is true tenfold around leading an

14:53

organization based out of

14:55

a personal traumatic experience that's also deeply

14:57

connected to all of this pain and

15:00

trauma and so it

15:02

was really hard for me to do the work

15:05

based out of my own trauma and being

15:07

in in a spotlight in a way. You

15:09

mentioned it's easier to tell the

15:12

story of your rape than

15:14

it is to tell the story

15:16

of you know Break the Silence

15:19

your organization and I think for

15:21

me there's just so many more

15:23

expectations of like

15:25

how does one lead a nonprofit

15:27

or how does one do professional

15:29

work and I

15:31

don't have those expectations tied to

15:34

healing and surviving. That

15:36

like I really see there's so many different

15:38

paths of how to heal and how to

15:40

move forward and so there's a

15:42

like a gentle part of me that says

15:46

you know you're still here and that's

15:49

powerful that's a resistance

15:51

that's a perseverance

15:54

that takes strength. The

15:57

part of me that looks back and sees

15:59

the profession work is

16:02

the critic that says, you

16:04

should have been more timely in that, you should have

16:06

been more on top of this, you should have been

16:09

managing those donations

16:11

differently. It's

16:13

literally the critic of how do you

16:15

judge someone's work rather than how do you

16:17

judge just living a

16:20

life with gentleness. This

16:26

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I

16:28

am in a rewatch right now

16:30

of Real Housewives of New Jersey,

16:32

and I'm specifically on season four.

16:35

Season four is when Teresa Giudice and

16:37

her brother, Joe Gorga, are

16:40

experiencing conflict. Joe suggests they go to therapy,

16:42

and what does Teresa say? I don't need

16:44

therapy. We don't do therapy. And

16:46

while I was watching, I thought, oh my God, that was

16:48

me. Therapy has

16:50

been transformative for me. It

16:53

is an hour of my week that I look

16:55

forward to because therapy has helped me

16:57

sort out all the

16:59

stuff in my brain. It

17:02

has helped me identify what's most

17:05

important to me. It

17:07

has improved my life in every measurable way. If

17:09

you are thinking of starting therapy, give

17:11

BetterHelp a try. It's totally

17:14

online, so you don't have to go anywhere. You

17:16

just fill out a brief questionnaire, you get

17:19

matched with a licensed therapist, and you

17:21

can meet a few. You can

17:23

switch at any time. No big deal. Learn

17:27

to make time for what makes you happy

17:29

with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/ttfa

17:32

today to get 10% off

17:34

your first month. That's betterhelp,

17:37

help.com/ttfa.

17:51

I want to tell you about one

17:53

of the most intriguing podcasts I've listened

17:55

to in a long time. Nobody

17:58

Should Believe Me is a signal. award-winning

18:00

investigative true crime podcast

18:03

about Munchausen by proxy. It's

18:06

by author Andrea Donlap who looks at

18:08

Munchausen by proxy through the intimate lens

18:10

of those who lived it along with

18:12

some of the top experts in the

18:15

world. The New York

18:17

Times called it a rich and harrowing chronicle

18:19

of the condition. It has more than 5

18:21

million downloads to date and only some

18:24

of those are from me. You'll

18:27

consistently see it on the charts in

18:29

Apple because it's incredible.

18:32

You can listen to all episodes of the

18:34

first three seasons. Right now it's

18:36

very bingeable and very important. Go

18:38

find it. Nobody should believe

18:40

me wherever you listen to podcasts.

18:51

It's not as though you

18:53

started out and said, how

18:57

can I make this a big

18:59

and all-consuming organization for me

19:01

personally? I

19:05

honestly, thinking back to it,

19:07

I was 26 when I was raped

19:09

and when I was 25 I felt like

19:13

old in a weird way, which

19:15

is hilarious 10 years ago. I

19:19

remember that the time

19:21

between college and that moment

19:23

before I was assaulted, it

19:26

felt long and strenuous for

19:30

really a sense of crossing a

19:32

threshold or my soul's threshing

19:34

of really thinking of what am I

19:36

going to do with this liberal arts degree?

19:40

I had attempted three master's programs

19:42

and I only finished one of

19:44

them. I

19:46

would literally any master's program that

19:49

didn't require a GRE, I was applying

19:52

to. It

19:54

was no standardized testing for me. I

19:59

learned something. every piece of it. And

20:01

I chose to drop out when it didn't

20:03

feel like it was the right fit anymore.

20:06

But by the time I finished

20:08

my master's in human resource development,

20:10

I landed like a dream job.

20:12

Hadn't been county, I was doing

20:14

internal training, learning and development work

20:16

there. And within four months

20:18

of getting the job, I was raped. And

20:21

it's just one of those moments where you

20:23

see yet another person, often

20:25

most often a woman, have

20:28

their career kind of derailed

20:31

by these experiences that happen

20:34

in private spaces. And I

20:36

really connect to that actually, I really

20:38

feel like my experience of sexual violence

20:40

was a professional derailment from the life

20:42

that I was like setting out to

20:44

lead. And so all

20:46

of that work that came

20:49

from it really wasn't, it wasn't,

20:51

I was already satisfied professionally, it

20:53

wasn't about becoming the finding meaning

20:55

and purpose, like I had meaning

20:57

and purpose in my work. I

21:00

was more responding to the thing that

21:02

I heard that was

21:04

surrounding me that others weren't hearing

21:06

and weren't noticing. Yeah, I literally

21:09

wrote while you're writing, it's like,

21:11

this was an interruption to your

21:13

life that then became

21:15

a huge part of

21:17

your life, like became your life in a lot of ways.

21:20

Yes. It was one

21:22

of those moments where I'm like, okay, I'm really doing

21:24

this work around, you know, supporting sexual assault survivors. Why

21:27

wouldn't I want to get paid for it full

21:30

time? And so I ended up working

21:32

in this field as like working

21:34

for the nonprofits that already existed,

21:37

and also running my

21:39

own stuff on nights and weekends.

21:41

And so it truly

21:43

became everything I wasn't

21:45

did. Or rather like

21:47

your life, like became your life in a lot of

21:49

ways. Yes. It was

21:52

one of those moments where I'm like, okay, I'm

21:54

really doing this work around, you know, supporting sexual

21:56

assault survivors. Why wouldn't I want

21:58

to get paid for it? full time. And so

22:01

I ended up working in

22:03

this field as like working for

22:05

the nonprofits that already existed and

22:07

also running my own

22:10

stuff on nights and weekends. And

22:12

so it truly became everything

22:15

I wasn't did, or

22:17

rather like what I did is also

22:19

who I was. And it

22:22

damaged me. Tell me

22:24

about that. Well,

22:28

I really suffered significantly and

22:30

frequently from migraines, which had

22:32

never impacted me. So there

22:35

was literally a physical barrier

22:38

to often doing the work where it

22:40

was like my body wasn't allowing me

22:42

to just look at a

22:44

computer or look at my phone. The

22:47

week after, so the memorial was

22:50

built and we had a dedication

22:52

ceremony that happened virtually because it happened

22:54

in the fall of 2020 in the

22:56

midst of the pandemic. And

22:59

a week after the

23:01

dedication ceremony, when

23:03

everything felt like, you know, the

23:05

publicity was kind of done, if it, you know,

23:08

it's just minimal, but it was done. And

23:10

it felt like, okay, this project is like over

23:13

in a significant way. I

23:15

developed like a heart problem, or like

23:18

I started having this like irregular heartbeat.

23:20

And I found myself in like a

23:22

cardiologist office, doing a stress

23:24

test and wearing one of those like heart

23:26

monitors for a few days. And, you

23:29

know, it just was almost like my

23:31

body was pushing through, pushing through, pushing

23:33

through. And then again, what I know

23:35

so many people experience when it's the

23:38

time to rest, or the time of

23:40

relief, your body's like, whoa, what,

23:43

what have you been doing, you know? So

23:46

I just like a very physical

23:48

level, there was a lot of physical

23:52

pain. But emotionally, it

23:54

just, I felt so vulnerable

23:56

and so

23:58

unprotected. And I

24:01

don't want, there were so many

24:03

people who supported me and loved me through

24:05

this. But

24:08

it doesn't stop like the wrath of social

24:10

media, you know? And I didn't have like

24:13

a staff person being like, oh, this next

24:15

email might be hard for you to read.

24:18

Like no one softened anything for

24:20

me. I

24:22

just felt like any mistakes that were made would

24:25

still be a reflection of me. Many

24:28

inadequacies. And

24:33

it took a long time to feel like myself

24:37

actually again. There's

24:40

no training program

24:43

that tells you when

24:45

you open yourself up or are sort

24:47

of exposed to this much of the

24:49

world, voluntarily or

24:51

not, how to handle it. Yeah.

24:55

And I'm sure you've experienced that. I

24:57

mean, just the sense that you're

25:00

doing something well and it snowballs

25:02

and how to

25:06

be seen by so many people, how to

25:08

be in relationship to like an abnormally

25:10

large number. Yeah, it's not

25:12

normal. Like you're not,

25:16

I don't know a person who's like

25:18

very well equipped for that.

25:22

And I think you

25:24

said it like takes, it took a

25:26

long time to feel like yourself.

25:31

Who did you feel like? Honestly,

25:33

I think of like a LinkedIn headline

25:35

like Sarah Super Rape Survivor, you know?

25:38

Like that's who I felt

25:40

like. I'm a person

25:42

who's compelled to do good in the world. But

25:45

I also feel like I was

25:49

doing good in the world. Like by

25:51

being a human being in relationship to

25:53

others who has an emotional

25:56

bandwidth to show up for friends

25:58

and family and colleagues to. to

26:00

participate in public discourse and

26:03

read the newspaper without feeling

26:06

like if I do or if I turn on the

26:08

news, it's not gonna enable me to do

26:10

my work that day. Because

26:12

so there's just, it's a tipping point

26:15

of emotional exhaustion. I

26:18

hear often, and I bet

26:20

you do too, I hear from people

26:22

who've been through something similar to what I've

26:24

been through who say, now

26:27

I wanna make something, now I need to do something,

26:30

and I need to turn it into something else. And

26:34

every time a person approaches me with

26:36

that conviction, with

26:39

that sense of passion, I

26:41

almost always ask them, what

26:44

if you didn't? You

26:47

know? Like what if surviving

26:50

was enough? Yeah, yeah,

26:53

I mean, the desire to make

26:55

something can be a really great

26:57

source of feeling. If

26:59

I could give some advice, I guess I would

27:02

say, don't necessarily make

27:04

something that you can

27:07

measure, right? Like make a

27:09

connection. And I think

27:12

that's probably the most life-giving part of this story

27:15

for me has been the people

27:17

that I've now connected

27:19

to and that I resonate with

27:21

and who are able

27:23

to kind of hold

27:26

the suffering when that shows up for me

27:28

in a way that feels supportive. People

27:31

will reach out and you said there

27:33

wasn't a buffer or enough of a

27:35

buffer, there might not ever be enough

27:37

buffer for the kinds

27:39

of inputs that you're

27:41

receiving with this work. And

27:45

it's an honor to receive

27:47

somebody's story to be a safe

27:49

place for somebody's story. And

27:52

it can also be a really

27:55

re-traumatizing experience. Like,

27:59

how did you... take care of

28:01

yourself and your healing while also,

28:03

you know, stepping into

28:05

a pool of trauma every

28:07

day. Yeah. It

28:09

wasn't really the stories that re-traumatized me. It

28:12

was, I guess, two

28:14

things. One is when someone

28:16

felt like they desperately needed me and

28:18

I couldn't offer that. So

28:21

that was really painful where they're like, Sarah,

28:23

I need to meet with you. I need

28:25

to talk to you. And like, I

28:27

can't manage that right now. So

28:30

that was really heavy for

28:32

me and also critique, you

28:34

know, or just saying like, I don't

28:37

like this or I think you're doing

28:39

this wrong. And just

28:41

having that come from lots of different

28:43

angles, you know, obviously unsolicited by a

28:45

lot of people sometimes I don't even

28:47

know in spaces that I don't even

28:50

participate in necessarily. Those

28:53

were really hard. And you

28:56

know, survivors feel very differently. Our

28:58

experiences are different. Our needs are

29:00

different. And so the idea that

29:03

I could be everything for

29:05

everyone is clearly impossible. But

29:10

the expectation that I set for myself was

29:12

like, oh, I don't want to cause anyone

29:15

pain and I want everyone to feel included

29:17

and invited into this and that everyone can

29:19

feel supported. And like, I still kind of

29:21

feel that way. It's

29:23

hard for me just to be like, no, I'm just going

29:25

to, you know, the people who don't like my work and

29:28

just, you know, ignore it. And

29:30

I think so much of it, the critique is

29:32

also from there's still so

29:35

many gaps and there's still

29:37

so much work to do specifically on

29:39

this issue that I see that isn't

29:41

being done or isn't being fulfilled. So

29:45

their anger and their frustration is really is righteous

29:48

and valid. It's just I

29:50

wasn't able to hold

29:52

that. Yeah,

29:54

to hold that and also to respond to

29:56

a need that. Not

30:00

unless and inexperienced.

30:03

That is kaleidoscopic. In

30:05

a way that. Reflects

30:08

back. The.

30:10

Experiences every person who

30:12

is coming into contact.

30:14

With this wife. And.

30:17

I can kind of feel the weight of

30:19

that, even. Just. Having you

30:22

talk about it too.

30:24

Which. Is like you are

30:26

this person who has that

30:29

deep. Need to do good in

30:31

the world to make those. Connections

30:33

and. When.

30:35

You do things out of that

30:37

that. Really genuine

30:40

desire and. Can't.

30:43

Make every single person has

30:45

be like that's really. Difficult.

30:48

Yes, that is a very. Hard

30:50

saying it's you know anything of be

30:53

hard if you were getting paid to

30:55

do it. but I think it's even

30:57

harder when it's. A

30:59

labor of. Love and

31:02

responsibility. like I dag, we've got

31:04

a sense that felt like responsible.

31:06

To or. Other. Survivors.

31:10

Yeah. And I think I

31:13

feel responsible because they think what

31:15

break the silence dead So so

31:17

unique and so it felt like

31:19

a place where survivors could reach

31:21

out. And it wasn't It wasn't

31:23

a victim advocate agency right? Like

31:26

it was an act. A place

31:28

with a crisis line we were

31:30

offering to go with people to.like

31:32

an order for protection or restraining

31:34

order. Ah we didn't have like

31:36

support group meetings we were doing

31:39

this really. Kind of

31:41

flexible thing and. Yeah.

31:44

It's just a it was.

31:46

It's obviously way beyond me.

31:50

But. There really wasn't another organization or

31:52

infrastructure that I've seen that says

31:55

done it and fulfilled that need

31:57

for survivors who aren't necessarily in

31:59

crisis. They are. You. Know

32:01

it's It's a really painful

32:04

journey and. I. Think

32:06

if you ask the regular person how

32:08

to someone heal from rape, they've still

32:10

say. A really good therapist

32:12

in a lotta self care. Which

32:16

I think is just a misguided

32:18

notion of what it actually means

32:21

to to take a stand. And

32:23

this is. Very.

32:25

Much a cultural and political. Issue.

32:28

And. That's perpetuated by a

32:30

lack of you justice and

32:32

accountability and healing and nuanced

32:34

understanding of trauma so. There's

32:37

There's plenty of work to do, This

32:44

show is sponsored. By better help. I

32:46

am in a real watch right now

32:48

of Real Housewives of New Jersey and

32:51

I'm specifically on Season four. Season four

32:53

is when Teresa Giudice and her brother

32:55

Joe Gore got are experiencing conflict. Joe

32:57

suggests they go to therapy and what

33:00

is Teresa say? I don't need therapy,

33:02

we don't do therapies and while I

33:04

was watching and I thought oh my

33:07

god that was me. therapy has then

33:09

the transformative for me. It is in

33:11

our of my week that I look

33:14

forward to. Because therapist helped

33:16

me to sort out all

33:18

the stuff in my brain.

33:20

it has helped me identify

33:22

with most important to me.

33:25

It is improve my life in every

33:27

measurable i. If you are thinking of

33:29

starting therapy, give Better Health a try.

33:31

It's totally on line so you

33:33

don't have to go anywhere. You

33:35

just fill out a brief questionnaire

33:38

you that matched with the licensed

33:40

therapist and you can meet a

33:42

few. Isn't switch it any time.

33:44

No big deal. Learned to learn

33:46

to make time for what makes

33:48

you happy with betterhelp Visit betterhelp.com/tts

33:51

A today to get ten percent

33:53

off your first. Month. That better

33:55

help eg. L P.com site

33:58

Tts say. I

34:10

want to tell you about one

34:12

of the most intriguing podcast says

34:14

listen to in a long time.

34:16

Nobody should believe me is a

34:18

signal Award winning investigative true crime

34:20

podcast about Munchausen by Proxy. It's

34:23

by author Andrea Dunlop, who looks

34:25

at Munchausen by proxy through the

34:27

intimate land of those who lived

34:29

there, along with some of the

34:31

top experts in the world. The

34:33

New York Times called it a

34:36

rich and harrowing chronicle of the

34:38

conditions. It has more than five

34:40

million downloads today and only some

34:42

of those. Are for me.

34:44

Feel consistently. See it on

34:47

the charts in alcohol because

34:49

it's incredible. Isn't listen to

34:51

all officers. Of the first three

34:53

seasons of Right Now is very

34:55

binge, evolve and very important Go

34:57

find it. Nobody should believe me.

34:59

Wherever you listen to podcasts. When.

35:09

People say oh it's a therapist and

35:11

self. Care? What do you want? to?

35:15

Tell them What Is it? rally? I

35:17

think it's every interaction. People

35:20

use that back an age

35:23

old adage, time heals and

35:25

that's just not at altruist

35:27

trauma. In fact in nature

35:30

of trauma is a timelessness

35:32

is distorted sense of then

35:34

and now and. While.

35:37

It's not the passage of

35:39

time that I think skills.

35:41

Because healing isn't linear. I

35:43

do think time allows for

35:45

a survivor to have more

35:48

and more interactions with other

35:50

people other responders for other

35:52

people. The to. Either be

35:54

part of the healing are part of the

35:56

harm, and I'm I'm hoping that we're moving.

35:58

Towards a world where. The longer

36:00

the more time that passes,

36:02

the more Seeley interactions people

36:04

have, which means more healing

36:07

overall. But I really think.

36:09

It takes friends and family and

36:12

communities to show that they care

36:14

to take this pain seriously to

36:16

validate the harm that's been done.

36:19

I think there's a need to

36:21

in, oh, transform our justice system

36:23

so that perpetrators can take accountability

36:26

without having their human rights denied.

36:30

There's so many ways in which. We've.

36:32

Just gotten it wrong and

36:34

and such a lack of.

36:37

When. You compare what victims need to

36:39

what they get or what other options

36:42

it says. It

36:44

says peaceful when we say it. A lot

36:46

of therapy in a lot of says care

36:48

what I hear his. You. Take care of.

36:50

Yourself. Or yeah, it's year

36:52

like pull yourself up by your

36:55

bootstraps kind of mentality. You got

36:57

this and actually played by passing

36:59

the responsibility on to you, the

37:01

victim. I as a community member

37:04

get to wash my hands of

37:06

any responsibility of of stepping up

37:08

and being a. Part. Of

37:11

the solution. It's. Obviously so

37:13

much easier to be a bystander and.

37:16

Yeah. That's how oppression and and

37:18

violence drives is when people just

37:20

sit back and don't think it's

37:22

it's their. Place. Yeah,

37:25

that's for other people. You

37:28

side is something that I

37:30

just. Pictured. Is

37:34

such a perfect summary of. Your

37:37

identity being almost. Flattened into

37:40

a link din Us tagline

37:42

by there's if there's not,

37:44

if there's some things or

37:46

better visual than that, I

37:48

don't know what it is.

37:51

Sarah super survivor rape

37:53

survivor. And. I.

37:58

Hate that for you. And I

38:00

also have to admit that that

38:02

work and. That's. A

38:06

title and headline. Converged

38:08

even for me. even for a pursue knows

38:10

you in real life. And

38:14

it you know, like I actually get

38:16

guess I. Didn't

38:18

know what you actually did for work. Or

38:21

a. Have.

38:24

Any like I know like Sundance as

38:26

any a ballroom dancing but. What?

38:29

Is the process or is there an

38:31

inflection point where like I. Have

38:34

to step away from this. And

38:37

how does that? Cel. At

38:40

originally I felt. Very. Strange.

38:44

Like. That. Reflex of like.

38:46

Something's. Happening on Facebook or Instagram

38:49

and I'm clueless to it. But

38:51

it's a crisis and I need

38:53

to find out what it as

38:55

are like. there's an emergency, something's

38:57

burning on my phone and I'm

38:59

just ignoring it as actually really.

39:02

No. Actually, It's

39:05

okay, you know it's not as a that there

39:07

was an emergency. it was that moment of quiet

39:09

of like. We. Pass

39:11

that bill or of we

39:14

built that memorial and I'm.

39:17

That. I had this ability to to

39:20

actually step away. From.

39:25

So. I guess originally their Salt

39:27

Lake. this. Strange. Quiet

39:29

and also that strange reflex

39:32

of like something's happening and

39:34

I'm missing it. Then

39:37

it was kind of an

39:39

identity crisis of like oh

39:41

i. I mean. I

39:44

felt. In many ways

39:46

proud of things I had accomplished,

39:48

but in a very stereotypical sense

39:51

of like a career trajectory that

39:53

I had been said mean of

39:55

the first eighteen years of my

39:57

life. This these accomplishments. Didn't.

39:59

Add Q anything you know it won't

40:01

Nothing changed for me. No one called

40:03

me up and said he a salaried

40:05

and in Minneapolis I when I are

40:07

you for this exciting new job in

40:10

New York City. Years of like knowing

40:12

did that and I'm. I'm

40:14

it was okay, but it really

40:16

was. It

40:18

was a sense of like has this

40:21

work then slowly seen or. What

40:24

can I offer? I. Have

40:26

all these. Skills. And

40:28

contacts in. A

40:31

Literally just like energy enthusiasm. Where

40:33

do we put it? And.

40:38

And frankly, I have then. Questioning.

40:41

That I think that's kind of still a.

40:44

A question that that lingers in clumps

40:47

up. Quite.

40:49

Frequently his by I think there's

40:51

a few different places where. After

40:54

taking a few years of what

40:56

I deem as a break, I

40:59

would say there are places where

41:01

I'm noticing I'm I'm being drawn

41:03

into and. And

41:06

it feels right to me. and

41:08

it doesn't actually. It

41:10

doesn't center. Around being a

41:12

rape survivor or talking about

41:15

sexual violence. How

41:17

did you make. The. Decision

41:19

or. A. Yeah,

41:21

hundred you make the decision to step

41:24

away from that work. And.

41:27

Winter that happen. I mean. To.

41:29

Some degree I would say. I didn't step away

41:31

until I felt like things were. Done.

41:35

Am are there. There was some

41:37

level of completion that the the

41:39

Statute of Limitations still that pass

41:42

in Minnesota had taken five years

41:44

or five legislative sessions to lobby

41:46

that the Memorial to Survivors of

41:49

Sexual Violence took five and a

41:51

half years to work with local

41:53

government and fundraise Am and construct.

41:55

See that through. It

41:58

so it was in and. Though I felt

42:00

like things were complete, that I felt like I

42:02

was able to step aside. And

42:05

sep away. One. Of the sad

42:07

part for me with the feeling that. That.

42:11

Find me stepping aside. There wasn't

42:13

someone like taking the reins? Are

42:15

that? Because this wasn't I had

42:18

never made it into a paid

42:20

position. That it wasn't

42:22

something that I wish for someone else

42:24

to do for free and. And

42:28

selling away by me stepping.

42:30

Aside. I

42:33

was stopping a lot of the work

42:35

from what was happening and mean into

42:37

just and I'm not trying to. Take

42:39

too much credit, but I just. By. Creating

42:41

an unsustainable place by creating something

42:44

unsustainable for even myself. It didn't

42:46

allow or invite anyone else to

42:48

take it on, and nor would

42:50

I want them to have taken

42:52

it on in the same way.

42:56

What? Has it been like. To.

42:59

Figure out. Who

43:02

you are now. I'm

43:04

still figuring it out. They

43:07

are I would save. And like last year's

43:09

the your he became a woman is like

43:11

a lot of sense as a just like

43:14

owning more of who I am and making

43:16

big choices for myself. I'm. I

43:20

feel like I'm getting clearer. but

43:22

I do feel like. One.

43:24

Thing I settled on his life as a

43:26

lot more than just. What we contribute.

43:30

And. I do feel that. Contributing.

43:33

Is very important. Like I want

43:35

to be in a constantly

43:37

learning consent but also happy

43:40

and healthy. And. I

43:42

think there is a dissonance that

43:44

sometimes shows up between the desire

43:46

to improve the world and the

43:48

desire to enjoy the world. More.

43:52

Often I think I tend towards improving

43:54

it and at the expense of enjoying

43:56

it. and I. Am.

44:00

Maybe. The balance isn't that everything sits at

44:02

that standstill equilibrium, but that it actually kind

44:04

of ebbs and flows in. There was a

44:07

part of my life leading break the Silence

44:09

Atlas really dedicated to improving the world and

44:11

now I'm and more of a phase where

44:13

I'm just enjoying the world and maybe I'm

44:15

in a swing back the other way and

44:17

another time. But. I'm I think

44:20

I'm finding out what it is to. To.

44:23

Have a job that. That.

44:25

Feels balance to me. I get

44:27

to work with good people and

44:29

I get to do volunteer work

44:31

that brings me joy. And I'm

44:33

dancing. I do yoga. I teach

44:35

yoga. In this of these stairs

44:37

I'm becoming that multi dimensional person

44:39

that I was before I was

44:41

assaulted. Sometimes like

44:43

the worst thing that happens. To

44:45

you be times. And needs

44:48

to become like truly the headline

44:50

in your life. It is the

44:52

most important thing that somebody can

44:54

know about. You at certain points

44:57

in time. For. A

44:59

certain amount of time, I

45:01

have a friend doctor and a roster. Who's

45:04

I? Ah, psychologists to. At

45:07

has told me numerous times as at the. Time.

45:10

Like you mentioned, he knows is not

45:12

just time passes, it's it's it's what

45:14

you do with that time and what

45:16

you do in that time and and

45:19

how other people usually net time and

45:21

how other people treat you with happens

45:23

in that time and eventual. You

45:25

were at. Some people

45:27

like what? Was the headline is

45:30

like a footnote. Or you know,

45:32

a page. It's not like though

45:34

it's not the name of the

45:36

book anymore And. It doesn't

45:38

mean that Bnl, it's not important,

45:40

it just means that. It's

45:43

not ever. That's right. Anything

45:45

to. I'm at the dedication

45:47

ceremony. For the Survivors memorial.

45:50

Try to bird spoke and one of

45:52

the things she said was. That.

45:54

You cannot. Tell the story

45:56

of what happened to me without telling the

45:58

story of my server. They will and I

46:01

think about that from just my sense

46:03

of like. I'm not.

46:06

Sarah. Super Rape survivor I'm

46:08

Sarah Super Rape survivor who

46:10

said das their says and

46:12

now is doing this this

46:14

unless you know and that.

46:18

It's. Just it is. A part of

46:21

this story is that I've integrated. But

46:23

it's not the end of. The story.

46:27

For. Almost exactly nine years from

46:29

the night I was raped. but

46:31

last February I was preparing for

46:33

the person who raped me to

46:36

get out of prison. so it

46:38

was very much a part of

46:40

my. Consciousness A part

46:42

of my. awareness of of

46:45

not as what happened to me but

46:47

also the fear of what else could

46:49

happen to me and. And.

46:52

Honestly, that's fear once again, like.

46:55

Confronting the fear of death

46:57

Or confronting our own mortality.

47:01

Inspired of the of action of

47:03

Just Like. This is short

47:05

and we don't know what's in

47:07

front of us and there are

47:09

things that I want out of

47:11

life that I am no longer.

47:14

I'm. Willing. To be

47:16

so patient for and. It.

47:19

Does it sparks a lot of chains and

47:21

in one of those things is Ill just.

47:25

Stepping away from one thing

47:27

in order to experience another.

47:29

Noom I think like. It's

47:33

important for people to be

47:35

reminded that. Their.

47:39

Lives, their value, their identity, their

47:41

story in the world is more

47:43

than just the worst. Thing that

47:45

they've been through. Are

47:47

the worst thing that's happened to them? That.

47:51

You don't have to sort of lop

47:53

off all of your branches like the

47:55

giving tree and that. You.

47:57

Can be proud of what you've given him.

47:59

proudly. You've done. And.

48:02

Have that Bns. You. Know.

48:05

Yeah, and you don't have to

48:07

put yourself down to the stump.

48:10

right? Like maybe just the apples

48:12

that come back. Every year is

48:15

a beautiful guest. The

48:17

through a straw man. just the

48:19

apples. just the you. just the

48:21

shade? Yeah, no. Yes,

48:23

yes is. The. Say just being there

48:25

your your existence is the guest in

48:27

a lot of ways you know? In.

48:30

A lot of when they would have. Been a

48:32

short book by the Pacific.

48:36

It the boy sadness eight avoid was happy and

48:38

so is the tree or guess. Since

48:41

shoots closely. Boundaries hates

48:43

Sounder Yeah, I'm I'm

48:45

really. Sustainability. Sustainability. I am

48:47

really proud of you Sarah and I'm really happy for

48:49

you and I'm really excited about your life for you.

48:51

Think. You. I'm

49:13

Nora Mcinerney. This has been

49:15

terrible. Thanks for asking. And

49:17

if you feel like you are the

49:20

giving tree, I hope you know that

49:22

your existence isn't. That

49:24

the shade is enough that whatever

49:26

you do wherever you are right

49:29

now, it's all wanna. Thank

49:32

you to Sarah Super for being a part

49:34

of our very first. Season and

49:36

what is for now Our

49:38

last season. When I

49:40

say that we are taking it in

49:43

indefinite hiatus after April Second twenty. Twenty

49:45

Four. A mean Indefinite

49:47

in the way that dictionary.com

49:49

defines it without fixed or

49:51

specific limits, not clearly defined

49:53

or determined, not precise or

49:56

exact if you are listening

49:58

to this on Apple. As

50:00

a subscriber or on patria and

50:02

ah we are going to keep.

50:04

Making. Bonus. Episodes through

50:07

at least August summers

50:09

you ah. Paid

50:12

for a year up the fronts,

50:14

in which case if we shut

50:16

down either of these things, you

50:18

will be reimbursed. Automatically for

50:20

whatever remaining on your

50:23

subscription. This. Is

50:25

an independent podcast produced by Feelings

50:27

and How Our Team Is Myself,

50:29

Marcel Mail Keeble, Clear Mcinerney, And

50:32

Grace Very or theme music is by

50:34

Joffrey and Lamar. Wilson. We do have

50:36

a daily show called it's going To

50:38

Be Okay. Reading get. A five

50:40

minute episode every weekday to start your day

50:43

with the opposite. Of a doomed scroll

50:45

and there are links to other

50:47

places that you can connect with.

50:50

Me or us in our

50:52

show description.