0:01

This is exactly right. This

0:07

story contains adult content and

0:09

language, along with references to

0:11

sexual assault. Listener discretion is

0:13

advised. Yes,

0:21

your parents have told you not to go with

0:24

strangers, but really, if you have someone who comes

0:26

to you, who's around the same age,

0:28

and who tells you that he has a bag

0:30

of candy, and when you should go with him

0:32

to the circus, you never expect the devil to

0:34

be another child. I'm

0:40

Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author

0:42

and journalism professor in Austin, Texas.

0:44

I'm also the host of the

0:46

historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

0:48

Wicked, and the co-host of the

0:50

podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right.

0:52

I've traveled around the world interviewing

0:54

people for the show, and they

0:56

are all excellent writers. They've had

0:58

so many great true crime stories,

1:00

and now we want to tell

1:02

you those stories with details that

1:04

have never been published. Tenfold More

1:07

Wicked presents Wicked Words is about

1:09

the choices that writers make, good

1:11

and bad. It's a deep

1:13

dive into the stories behind the stories.

1:18

I've been fascinated with the story

1:20

of Jesse Pomeroy in 1870s Boston

1:22

for years. He's the

1:24

boy who murdered kids for quite

1:26

a while before he was caught.

1:29

What does this story tell us

1:31

about crime today? Author Roseanne Montillo

1:33

talks about her book, The Wilderness

1:35

of Ruin, A Tale of Madness,

1:38

Fire, and the Hunt for America's

1:40

Youngest Serial Killer. I

1:43

think our audience, most of us have heard

1:45

of Jesse Pomeroy. It's an infamous story. I

1:47

know very little about it. I know the

1:50

broad strokes, and that's it. So let's start

1:52

with, what do you think the themes are

1:54

that you pulled out of this story that

1:56

would resonate with an audience today? What's important

1:59

about it? You know, I

2:01

actually hadn't heard about him when

2:03

I first ran across them. Even

2:05

though I live pretty close by,

2:07

I just. A few miles down the

2:09

road from where he lived. And

2:11

I think what really resonated with

2:14

me even though the story took

2:16

place in the eighteen and seventy

2:18

slow or and it was It

2:20

was a story about a boy

2:23

who committed crimes the could have

2:25

been plucked out from today's newspapers

2:27

and hi mother tried to shield

2:30

him. Away from what people thought

2:32

of him, a criminal. Some uncle

2:34

needed to be known away in

2:36

a frozen and never allowed to

2:38

be seen by others and never

2:40

allowed to see the light of

2:42

day and up. How everybody thought

2:44

of him a monster but never

2:46

really saw that be to study

2:48

him to see why these things

2:50

were happening and everybody had an

2:52

opinion but nobody really knew what

2:54

was happening, why he was committing

2:56

these crimes. And a funny part

2:58

well no really funny but tragic

3:01

is that everybody had an opinion

3:03

but. No one really knew what

3:05

was happening. It's not like it

3:07

is today nowadays. people have the

3:09

opportunity to win. Something like this

3:11

happens. You have the opportunity to

3:13

go somewhere to have them studied

3:15

by doctors said colleges. As a

3:18

parent, you have the opportunity to

3:20

bring your child and see you

3:22

know what, What makes someone a

3:24

killer? Back in the day, Mrs.

3:26

Pomeroy has no support whatsoever. She

3:28

had no idea what was happening.

3:31

She has no familial support. She

3:33

has. No doctors going to have

3:35

her. She had no idea if he

3:37

was the only one around the country.

3:39

she had nothing. so she really was

3:41

kind of a blank slate and I'm

3:43

so it was difficult for her as

3:45

well and it was no compassion for

3:47

her. You know there was nothing going

3:49

on on. They had never heard people,

3:51

never heard about a child. Committing

3:53

these sort of horrible crimes.

3:56

It's a story that sold, but it's also it's

3:58

a story that's current. Well. Looks,

4:00

I just start with the family with

4:02

the Pomeroy Family. Let's or from the

4:05

beginning, what do we know about them?

4:07

That sort of builds to the profile

4:09

of who Jesse Pomeroy was with all

4:11

the starts. It was a fairly

4:13

poor. Family, it was a

4:15

dysfunctional family, as you could

4:17

say she came from of a

4:20

mother who was someone who

4:22

didn't have a steady job. She

4:24

worked very hard even though she

4:27

didn't have anything concrete to sell

4:29

said to then laundry. She did

4:31

cleaning. She did as much as she

4:33

could because her husband. Wasn't the type

4:35

who worked all the time. he

4:38

was an alcoholic, he was an

4:40

abusive husband and other abusive father.

4:42

Just the also have had an

4:44

older brother Charles. He was would

4:47

you consider a good boy whose

4:49

he was the type obeyed parents.

4:51

She was good at school, she

4:53

delivered newspapers, He. Also

4:55

was born Charles was born

4:57

without any physical defects just

4:59

see On the other hand

5:02

was not just see had.

5:04

Break. From the star. Everything going

5:06

against them. She had sort of what

5:08

they called and class C I and

5:11

he wasn't really a glass, I was

5:13

just in. I'd that she went on.

5:15

Call it A. The subtle have been

5:17

milky complexes so he was always sort

5:20

of bullied for that. She was also

5:22

not just on this kid is he

5:24

compared him to children this age. He

5:27

was knocked out the biggest kid. And

5:29

the group. That's why she likes to

5:31

pick good children were younger than him

5:34

because normally. You put of Minerva regular

5:36

class. He was the one who was

5:38

bullied because of what you've looked like

5:40

and so she was bullied at school.

5:42

but he was also bullet at home

5:45

to Slaughter as soon as he was

5:47

born. Just the and he looked

5:49

different spot or came to believe

5:51

that he was the son of

5:53

a demo so if you get

5:55

bullied at school and a super

5:57

bowl it at home from your

5:59

own father very badly to the

6:01

point when she was don't often

6:03

to going to his room and

6:05

who was beaten very severely by

6:07

his father with themselves in a

6:09

stripped naked and beaten the only

6:11

thing i'd i feel that the

6:13

you're going to know is violence.

6:16

And. Saw and think a. Lot of

6:18

people once ducks nines started

6:21

took that kind of a

6:23

background into consideration. So

6:26

we know the family backgrounds. now.

6:28

when do you think things change?

6:30

For just see the starts, Everything

6:32

in motion. Is there an event

6:34

that happens? You know I

6:36

think when the violence that his father has

6:39

on. Him she starts his own

6:41

violent behavior on the animals. His

6:43

mom had birds, the neighbors had

6:45

birds so which I have read

6:47

enough to know them. Once you

6:50

starting your own violent behavior on

6:52

the animals, that's not a very

6:54

good sign. And. Oh so

6:56

you start with us. So he wanted

6:58

to try his own to see how

7:00

other creatures react to your own violent

7:03

behavior or then can just escalated. From

7:05

there he started hurting birds, he started

7:07

putting little animals and stuff from their

7:09

A Dixie took pleasure and see how.

7:12

These creatures helpless creatures felt

7:14

when he started by a

7:16

leading them. The idea that

7:18

he felt pleasure hurting animals and

7:20

then slowly escalated. From there there

7:23

was a murder near by, a

7:25

bow and one only when Jesse

7:27

was only six or seven years

7:29

old. The murder of for that

7:31

crime was never fall and. And

7:33

a lot of people. That for and tried

7:36

to pin it on him. Old Dell, it's

7:38

that's. The case in that and I

7:40

looked into that. And while it does

7:42

that, Was used to do

7:44

to them a place him out

7:46

of the same cage. sixty seven

7:48

a. Shudder to think that as he

7:50

actually started that early on. not sure

7:53

if he really did. that are not

7:55

even though it's close. Enough to his

7:57

early hunting grounds, but I think he.

8:00

The little bit older when

8:02

actually started. that. See.

8:04

Started right across the river where

8:06

he used to live by starting

8:08

with by a leading young boys

8:11

and you so she was pretty.

8:13

He. Was pretty crafty. One thing that a

8:16

lot of people didn't believe I did.

8:18

A lot of people have a hard

8:20

time. Believing in the children could

8:22

elaborate and come up with plans

8:24

to be so smart as it

8:26

is to calculated to say that

8:28

Jesse was eleven twelve years old

8:30

is an earlier than that and

8:32

say that he wanted to move

8:34

from. Charlestown M go across the

8:37

river and going to Chelsea.

8:39

And. Find himself a boy and

8:42

say you know there is a

8:44

surface nearby, let's go and see

8:46

it and then just attack a

8:48

young boy. And could

8:50

someone? That young be calculated enough

8:52

to do that sort of thing

8:54

in a I don't think people

8:56

want to credit someone with that

8:58

kind of behavior. But I think

9:00

it's plausible to do that. And.

9:03

Know a lot about the victims like hundred

9:05

getting into their lives. Who is he targeting

9:07

besides just young children? Is there anybody specifically

9:09

we can talk about Who can start with

9:12

a young boy early on because he had

9:14

sort of other and will a medium She

9:16

had a certain kind of child the he

9:18

went after you know what I mean need

9:20

is he didn't pick them. At

9:23

random. He had a

9:25

look that he liked. He obviously.

9:27

Didn't pick children were older than

9:29

him. He didn't pick children who

9:31

were taller. Are bigger than

9:33

him. Those he didn't approach because well,

9:36

he was being bullied by those who

9:38

are older and bigger so those wouldn't

9:40

work out. And he

9:43

also picked children. Who were were

9:45

locked children who are t had four.

9:48

Children were pretty so he was. Jealous?

9:50

Yes, Very Jealous. Early

9:52

on he started by molesting.

9:55

Several of them. a handful of them. He

9:57

didn't kill. A couple them right away.

10:00

He started by molested none.

10:02

He started by. And getting

10:04

his sexual gratification from the and

10:06

he started by a torture bring

10:08

Them and then he moved on

10:10

to really escalate into murder and

10:13

what he did to them would

10:15

be stab them right in the

10:17

eyes because he was especially jealous

10:19

of them. so you knew that

10:21

part of that was he knew

10:23

he was never gonna be as

10:25

well loved as well, taken care

10:27

of, as handsome or as pretty.

10:29

As. Them. So he drew out

10:32

the first boy by getting him to

10:34

trust him. Is that right? Yes, he

10:36

drew the first boy by telling them

10:39

say. Usual line he had tmd that

10:41

somewhere in the tell your children never

10:43

to take candy from a stranger but

10:45

part of it was that does young

10:47

boy when you tell someone not take

10:50

any from a stranger you never expect

10:52

the devil to be another child. The

10:54

young both we was only like eight

10:56

years old and the stranger was some

10:58

of was ten years old the it

11:01

year old. Is just I'm a boy

11:03

from a poor family. is just plain

11:05

outside as he does. Every

11:07

afternoon and he's been told not

11:09

to go away with strangers And

11:11

here comes this boy who looks

11:13

no two different things you are

11:15

under and he tells. You that you

11:17

know that The Surface is down the street.

11:20

She's gotta a bag the candy. And even

11:22

though the parents tell their children not go

11:24

away with strangers when it's a child who

11:26

comes at you with a beggar candy and

11:28

he tells you that you can go and

11:30

see the circus. Why? once. You go.

11:33

Parents don't usually worn children

11:35

against other children that tend

11:37

towards children against adults who

11:39

might. Want to do harm to

11:41

others? It odd that time children were

11:43

known to be killers or once you

11:46

do harm to other children as well.

11:48

Nobody really thought of just the or

11:50

anyone else for that matter as someone

11:52

who to go around and do harm

11:54

to other children. So. this little

11:56

boy and that up going would just see

11:58

it and he wasn't killed, Jesse wasn't

12:01

at that level yet but it

12:03

was hurt quite badly and the only thing

12:05

he could remember afterward was

12:07

that he had a glass eye.

12:10

But was he able to say that this was

12:12

a child just a couple of years older than

12:14

he who did this? Yeah, he

12:16

described it as a child but the thing was

12:18

that Jesse was not from the area, he

12:20

had walked there. So

12:22

police looked around the

12:25

area and there was no one that could

12:27

describe, no one knew about a child

12:29

with a glass eye as he

12:31

described it. Nobody was aware that

12:34

there was this boy around the area.

12:36

Jesse came from across the

12:38

bridge. Jesse lived in Charleston,

12:41

he lived in Bunkahill Avenue although

12:43

he was in the papers, people started

12:45

talking and it was then that his

12:48

mother Mrs. Panroyd decided, you know what,

12:50

after a couple of times this happened

12:52

more than once, Jesse started moving around

12:54

a little bit in the area and

12:57

the paper started kind of describing things

12:59

and Mrs. Panroyd figured it out that

13:01

they were talking about her son. Wow.

13:04

So what did she do? She didn't go to

13:06

the police, she didn't go to the

13:09

authorities, she didn't go to a teacher,

13:11

she didn't go anywhere which was, I

13:14

mean as a mother what do you do?

13:16

Do you protect your child or do you

13:18

go to the authorities? Legally

13:20

you have some things to do but morally

13:22

what do you do? So you turn your

13:24

son in, you know what the consequences are

13:26

going to be. So you have

13:29

a legal responsibility and a moral responsibility,

13:31

which one do you choose? Well

13:33

she could have stopped it right there. That's

13:36

why a lot of people ended up being very angry

13:38

with her. People are angry with her

13:40

because she could have stopped the killings that

13:42

happened afterward as well as

13:45

several abusive situations that

13:47

happened even afterward. Instead

13:50

she packed up and she moved to

13:52

South Boston believing that the abuse would

13:54

stop. Instead what happened

13:56

was that she just moved the abuse

13:59

from one place. to the next. Jesse

14:01

didn't change, the location changed. Do

14:04

we have any idea how many children

14:07

he attacked before she

14:10

made this discovery or the newspapers

14:12

starting to put the dots together

14:14

and then they moved to South

14:16

Boston? Three. There were three that

14:18

he attacked for sure. There were two

14:20

that died prior to that as I

14:22

mentioned. This would have been when he

14:24

was really young. He

14:27

would have been six or seven so

14:29

I'm not quite sure about those and

14:31

they're in the city a little further

14:34

out. So he would have had

14:36

to travel a somewhat bigger distance,

14:38

a much longer distance and it gives me

14:40

a little bit of a pause to that because

14:43

he was young. Yeah. You never know.

14:45

You don't know and when you were

14:47

saying that I just looked up really

14:49

quickly to remember you know the six-year-old

14:51

who shot his teacher and

14:54

you know the mother was in trouble with the

14:56

law because of it you know this this gun

14:58

that he had access to and

15:00

he stated clearly from what I remember

15:02

I'm planning to shoot my teacher so

15:05

that is different than what Jesse Pomeroy

15:07

did but it would not have occurred

15:09

to me until that story

15:12

came out you know

15:14

in 2023 that this had happened.

15:16

So Ruth Ann Pomeroy says let's

15:18

move. Is the husband still in

15:20

the picture? No, they divorced. She

15:22

was pretty audacious by the time

15:24

because divorce was not something that

15:26

was very common back then. You

15:29

know she took a risk and she

15:32

divorced the husband. She thought better be

15:34

divorced than married to someone who will

15:36

kill her right. He was on a

15:38

abusive husband. He eat up his children

15:41

pretty badly. He wasn't drunk and so

15:43

I mean many of the choices she

15:45

made were a little iffy but given

15:47

the time and the opportunities that she

15:49

had she also didn't have much of

15:51

a support system. Didn't have any family. She

15:54

didn't have people at the Sun

15:56

School were not with her. Peritioners

15:58

were not supporting. her, she

16:00

was alone. Well, tell me about

16:03

the stakes here. If she had turned him

16:05

in and said, I think

16:07

he's a suspect, what were the facilities

16:09

like for a boy? I know

16:11

this is unprecedented. I mean, that's part of this story. What

16:14

would they have done with him? Well, a reform

16:16

school was an option. He was a child. You know

16:18

what I mean? He was a child. So

16:21

there were plenty of reform school where he could

16:23

have been sent. And there

16:25

were facilities for children where

16:27

he would not have been coddled. That's

16:30

for sure. You know, these were not places where

16:32

you think you'd go and watch

16:34

TV because these things didn't exist back then. So

16:36

he would have been made to work. So

16:39

he would have been made to attend

16:41

meetings with doctors. He would have been

16:43

studied. That's for sure. He

16:46

would have had to attend meetings.

16:48

He would have been punished. But

16:50

there is also the possibilities that

16:52

he would have enjoyed some of

16:54

those punishments because they came to

16:56

a point where the punishments that

16:58

his father was giving him turned

17:00

out to be pleasurable for him. So you

17:03

know, there was a

17:05

time where certain punishments that he

17:07

received from adults turned out

17:09

to be almost pleasant for him. He

17:12

did attend reform school for a while.

17:14

He was in reform school because they

17:17

did arrest him. They did figure out

17:19

after the last abuse that he inflicted

17:21

on a child, they eventually figured out

17:23

who he was. He liked to walk

17:26

along the beaches because he knew that

17:28

there were children there who were playing.

17:31

And he ended up abusing one of the children

17:33

that he found in one of those spots who

17:35

were by themselves. And the child was

17:37

able to identify him. Wow. And

17:40

he was arrested and sent to reform

17:43

school against, you know, his mother's wishes.

17:45

He was in there for almost two

17:47

years. His mother wasn't happy

17:49

about that. They made sure that he came out

17:51

after two years. And you know,

17:53

he didn't mind it. That's the whole

17:56

thing. Jesse Didn't particularly

17:58

mind being in reform. Home

18:00

school because when he came out.

18:03

He. Actually was reformed. He turned out to

18:05

be worse than the time to. He wouldn't.

18:08

She came out more vengeful. He

18:10

came out more disturbed. He

18:12

came out more intent on doing harm

18:14

reform school than work for him. His

18:17

mother after a while was able to get

18:19

him out because she had an. Affair.

18:21

With a police officer was just as

18:23

Crust is. he was, you know, was

18:26

a quid pro quo kind of a,

18:28

you know, And she worked her

18:30

wiles and he works as so

18:32

She came as he came out.

18:34

And let's just say that reform.

18:36

School than I'm worth. Like. I

18:38

said he had time to learn

18:40

skills and su he was mad.

18:42

See he was very mad. Because

18:45

while before what he did was

18:47

abuse that is. Once he came

18:49

out he moved, his deeds escalated

18:51

in his before the kids managed

18:53

to get away from him. Once

18:56

he came out, those kids had

18:58

no chance. While at all, he

19:00

wasn't going to let anyone that

19:02

away with anything. They. Were gonna

19:04

be any witnesses to what he was going to do. So

19:07

if we remove the two children

19:09

who died who you suspect because

19:11

of Jesse's age, he would have

19:13

been six or so. Because of

19:15

the geographic location. It was too

19:17

far flung for him. If we

19:19

remove those two boys, he hasn't

19:21

killed anybody before. The reform school

19:23

is only when he's released. Yes,

19:25

Okay, so that was sort of.

19:27

his triggers is inciting incident I

19:29

think so I think she had

19:31

time to kind of. And plus

19:33

if you wanna call it that,

19:35

he had time. To think about

19:38

things, she had plenty of time

19:40

to. Sort. Of sharpen his

19:42

skills as well. There were plenty

19:44

of boys said he tried his

19:46

hands. on he spent a lot of

19:48

time in solitary confinement as well because

19:51

of lots of things that he tried

19:53

on other boys while he wasn't a

19:55

reform school while he's didn't spend most

19:57

of his time in solitary confinement when

20:00

he was together with other boys,

20:02

he was with kids who

20:05

were, I don't want to say the worst of

20:07

the worst, but you know, these were kids who

20:09

were just like him. And so

20:11

he managed to learn things. He

20:14

also became very much aware of

20:16

how he was seen. And

20:18

so if they were going to call him, if they

20:20

were going to abuse him, if they thought that he

20:22

was mean, he was going to

20:24

be the best of the worst. You know

20:26

what I mean? You thought he was

20:28

bad when he went in? Well, he hasn't seen

20:30

nothing yet. Well

20:51

let's tell the story now chronologically.

20:53

He's released from reform school and

20:55

he's 12 at this point, a

20:57

little bit older. He's 13 and a half.

20:59

Okay. He's released to his mom's care. Is

21:01

she still in South Boston? She is.

21:04

She had opened up a little shop

21:06

where she sold newspapers and her son,

21:08

Charles is a little bit older. He's

21:11

still the good, the good son. You want

21:13

to call it that he goes out and

21:15

delivers paper. So Jesse, Jesse works for them.

21:17

You know, he goes out, they

21:19

sell newspapers, they sell pens, notebooks,

21:21

and so people go there. And

21:24

so the first person who comes

21:26

across, Jesse has grown a little bit now.

21:29

You know, it only looks a little weird,

21:31

but he has grown taller. He has grown

21:33

a little bulkier. And the first person that

21:35

he kills is a

21:38

little girl named Katie Curran. She's

21:40

a little girl from the neighborhood. She

21:42

goes out in the morning one day

21:44

before she goes to school. She tells

21:46

her mom that she's going to buy

21:50

a notebook for school. He's

21:53

supposed to meet Charles who usually

21:55

tends to the shop, but this

21:57

morning he has gone out to deliver

21:59

the newspaper. And. Then decided

22:01

to less just see stay in the

22:03

shop because now you know he's a

22:06

good boy has been reformed and Katie

22:08

instead of meeting Charles she meets Jesse

22:10

hotels or that the notebooks and downstairs

22:13

in the basement is and of sister

22:15

go down and pick one out. you

22:17

know whatever she wants she's. Able to

22:20

go down and pick one herself Well she

22:22

goes down six one of for herself then

22:24

she never clumsy. He. Buries her

22:26

in the basement, the basement, and his

22:28

arm on. Unless you've ever been to

22:30

South Boston, but that's one of the

22:33

East triple deckers. dumb. Obese. And

22:35

they're made of stone and. The first

22:37

and know it's not one of these

22:39

places that he'd likely go to keep

22:41

anything and it's really just a dirty

22:43

place that dab of any really goes

22:45

and know. There weren't any

22:47

notebooks or newspapers or anything

22:49

and just see, just killed

22:51

or enough buried her. Under

22:54

a pile of the dark

22:56

cement phones and lecter. they

22:58

are. The whole neighborhood started

23:00

looking for her. Was. Possible

23:02

could have gone because. well, she was

23:05

a good girl. And her parents

23:07

were divorced so automatically. They

23:10

believed that may be her dad could

23:12

have kidnapped her. And. Broader somewhere

23:14

else moved. irks me. You know the

23:16

police really didn't take the whole thing

23:18

seriously. They felt the maybe she had

23:21

been kinda. even though Jesse was there

23:23

and he just he had just come

23:25

out of reform school. you would think

23:28

that maybe someone would have imagined. That

23:30

there was something slightly suspicious about

23:32

that. You know, just incest them

23:34

out and you have a little

23:36

girl missing the bell? Sit and

23:38

just on. All right there. Nobody.

23:41

Thought of that, the investigation.

23:43

That little know was done automatically

23:45

placed or and the kidnapped area.

23:48

The mom was very desperate to

23:50

say that. You know,

23:52

as much as my husband is a tweet,

23:54

I don't think you would have done that

23:56

door until. Several weeks months later,

23:59

The. Listen. The murder rate on the

24:01

beach. A little boy just he was

24:03

walking on the sidewalk and there was

24:05

a little boy who wanted he was

24:07

four years old little boy cute as

24:10

a button. Again he got jealous because

24:12

chorus that was his name As an

24:14

adorable blonde blue eyed little boy who

24:16

told his parents they she could go

24:18

out. And. Buy some candy. He wanted

24:20

to see a lotta a big boy. And.

24:22

When it's walk down to doors to

24:25

buy candy Just he saw him let

24:27

him down to the beach and killed

24:29

them stabbing him bragging the i saw

24:31

you know reading the I you know

24:34

what I said that Jesse had that

24:36

milky I yeah he's all jealous and

24:38

stab them. Reading the i'm

24:40

in left and right on the

24:42

beach and then she set fire

24:45

to him some really was a

24:47

horrendous crime and on hours later

24:49

a couple of them people who

24:51

had gone to the beach que

24:53

ces found him smile. And then

24:55

you know they felt this time

24:57

around the police had a feeling

25:00

that Jesse had done it this

25:02

time around. Suspicion immediately was

25:04

on him and they arrested

25:06

him so. It's interesting that

25:09

with Td conceals her so well,

25:11

he buries her. What do you

25:13

think motivated him with horas to

25:15

literally display him on a public

25:18

beach so someone was obviously gonna

25:20

find him. would he think what

25:22

happened in between. It's

25:24

funny because Key is the only girl. All.

25:27

The other ones were boys. In

25:29

Kenya, think was a crime of

25:31

opportunity. She sort of of linked

25:33

to them so not sure if this was

25:36

kind of a spur of the moment thing.

25:38

You know, she just happened to be there.

25:40

He just happened to be there as. Well

25:43

she just arrived. yeah

25:45

i mean and also her family knew where she

25:47

was going so yeah you're right he would have

25:49

he would have had to have covered that up

25:51

because these other kids he sort of drew out

25:54

and they were out and it could have been

25:56

anybody who had done it but with katie or

25:58

it would have been a media suspicion. Okay,

26:01

so he is a big suspect

26:03

and they arrest him and he's 13 at

26:05

the time? He's

26:08

older than that. By now he's about 14 or

26:10

so. Yeah, he's, I mean, and now what

26:12

do you do with him? You know, he's

26:14

a 14-year-old boy who's committed and Katie

26:16

no longer after. Mrs. Plummeroy sells the

26:18

building and the man who buys it

26:20

starts to dig in the basement because

26:22

there is kind of a smell coming.

26:25

What do they find? Katie's body. So

26:27

they know that he's committed this crime

26:29

as well. Do you think

26:31

Mrs. Plummeroy ever suspected that after

26:33

his release from the reform school

26:36

that something was happening? Do you

26:38

think she sensed anything like, whoa,

26:40

my kid is not any better,

26:42

he's worse. Yeah, I do. She

26:44

had to know early on you

26:46

just don't go home and find

26:49

these twisted birds in your cage

26:51

and think to yourself, my child

26:53

just happened to be playing with

26:56

these birds that I've cared for, you know,

26:58

for so long and suddenly he strangles them

27:00

and there is nothing wrong with this child

27:02

of mine. You know what I mean? She

27:05

had to have known early on when she

27:07

decided to move that it was

27:09

him who was doing these things otherwise he

27:12

wouldn't just pick up and move your

27:14

whole family somewhere else. She had to

27:16

have known all along. That's why people

27:19

were very upset with her that she didn't

27:21

do something about it. I mean, I don't

27:23

know, what would you do in a situation

27:25

like that? Do what you feel it's

27:28

morally right, it's legally right. What

27:30

do you do with a child that is yours

27:32

and is committing such devious crimes?

27:35

Especially against children. Yes, I mean when

27:37

do you stop being a mother and start

27:40

being a citizen worried about other people?

27:42

You know what I mean? Where do you

27:45

turn for help? People hate you. You don't

27:47

have a husband, you don't have a

27:49

community, you don't have a support system,

27:51

you don't have a family. Where

27:54

do you go for help? You certainly can't turn

27:56

to the internet. There is no

27:58

Google search and engines, where

28:01

do you go? Well, let's

28:03

turn to his arrest. He's arrested.

28:06

What do the police in Boston say

28:08

we should do with this kid because

28:10

this was unprecedented for them? It

28:12

was. And on his trial, he

28:14

was convicted and a lot of people wanted

28:16

him to die in the middle of Boston

28:19

Common. I mean, keep in

28:21

mind that this is the 18thsemenies. Boston

28:24

wasn't kidding around. He was put on trial.

28:26

He was sentenced to die. And

28:29

at the time, do you want to put

28:31

a teenager on the gallows to die in

28:33

the middle of Boston Common? If

28:35

this were your child, would you want to see him die

28:37

just like that? Do you want to

28:40

be known as the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,

28:42

the first state that put a child?

28:45

Because keep in mind that as horrible as these

28:47

crimes are, they were committed by a child under

28:49

the age of 15. Do

28:52

you want to be known as that state

28:54

who does that? On the other hand, what

28:56

do you do with him? Well, during the

28:59

trial, did Jesse admit to anything? Did he

29:01

have a defense whatsoever? No,

29:03

the only thing he did was go

29:05

to court and laugh. The only thing

29:07

he was smirking, he was playing, he

29:09

played with his buttons. He was just there.

29:12

He didn't admit to anything. He just listened

29:14

to what people had to say. And

29:17

doctors said that he was

29:19

a psychopath, that he was sick. It

29:22

wasn't like people were studying the human

29:24

brain. It wasn't as if there weren't

29:27

studies done on criminals. The only difference

29:29

was that the criminals were older.

29:32

People who died in London, people were hung

29:34

all the time. They were all

29:36

older people compared to him. Children

29:39

had never really committed this sort of

29:41

thing. He was such an unusual

29:44

case. Still, he was sentenced to die.

29:46

And the governor at the time just

29:48

didn't have it. And it was hard

29:50

to do that. So he was on

29:52

that road for two years. Until

29:55

his sentence was commuted

29:57

to life in prison. I'm

30:00

not sure there was the better choice though

30:02

in solitary confinement. So it's not just

30:04

like he went to prison where he

30:06

stayed for 53 years. It

30:09

was also in solitary confinement for 53

30:11

years. So I

30:13

mean, you don't place him to hang

30:15

but at the same time, solitary confinement

30:17

for someone I mean by the time he went

30:19

to prison, he was 16 years old. You

30:23

have a 16 year old who's going to

30:25

go to prison for life. Not only that, he's

30:28

going to be in solitary confinement for

30:30

the rest of his days. Can

30:32

you imagine that as well? I'm not sure

30:34

that that sentence is any better than having

30:36

him die. So a lot of people were

30:38

aggravated by that. Which

30:41

is better, to make him die or

30:43

to leave him in solitary confinement for the

30:46

rest of his days? Did he

30:48

write? Did he leave behind any kind

30:50

of writing or anything like that? He

30:52

did. He was a very good writer. He

30:54

read tons of books because eventually

30:57

they were two jail cells that he

30:59

got. He wrote books, he

31:01

wrote biographies, he wrote an entire biography.

31:04

And so he didn't think that it was appropriate

31:06

for him to be in

31:08

solitary confinement of course. He

31:10

wanted to look outside. He wanted an entire

31:13

pardon of course. You know, he wanted to

31:15

be pardoned because he said that as he

31:17

got older, he'd go better. He

31:19

said that the crimes that he committed as a child

31:21

were the crimes of a child. The

31:23

person he became as an adult had nothing

31:25

to do with what he had done as

31:27

a child. I actually don't believe

31:29

that because he was a crafty old guy. He

31:32

tried to escape and he did very

31:35

well. You know, he managed to get

31:37

out of his cell many, many times.

31:40

His warden said that he was a real pain

31:42

in the ass because he managed

31:44

to escape from his cell at least a

31:46

half a dozen times. One time

31:48

he actually had almost made it out

31:51

until a cat gave him away. A

31:53

cat that he had in his cell got spooked

31:56

by a noise that he made and I

31:58

woke the warden. And so he was

32:01

caught. He never made it outside of

32:03

the walls of the prison. And you

32:06

think to yourself, what could you possibly

32:08

do now? Where are you

32:10

going? He was never pardoned. He went

32:12

before the pardon committee several times. He

32:14

was never given a pardon. At

32:17

the end of his life when he was almost 70,

32:19

he was transferred to a hospital

32:21

because he got sick but

32:24

he wasn't happy with that. He just wanted to

32:26

get out. He wanted to get out. By

32:28

then it was too late. Did his

32:31

brother Charles or his mother Ruthanne come and

32:33

visit him ever? Was that even allowed?

32:36

His mother. You've got

32:38

to give it to her. His mother used to bring

32:40

him little files and little things to try and help

32:42

him to get out. Oh gosh

32:44

Ruthanne. Up until she died herself, she used

32:46

to help him. She used to

32:48

bring him food all the time. And in

32:51

that food package, she used to have little

32:53

knives. That really didn't end there for

32:55

two other people as well. And it's kind of

32:57

like, you know what he has done? What

33:00

do you expect that he's going to do

33:02

once he gets out? Do you really think

33:04

he's going to change? I actually thought that

33:07

the time that he had in there

33:09

didn't mellow him at all because

33:11

if anything, if the reform school

33:13

when he was a youngster with

33:15

any indication, time in solitary confinement

33:17

now that he was an adult

33:20

was only going to make him angrier and

33:23

a lot more kind of resentful. You

33:25

know what I mean? I mean, he

33:27

was growing behind solitary confinement. Can you

33:29

imagine what that does to a person

33:32

to kind of embitter him even more?

33:34

And she was trying to help him to escape. What

33:37

were her expectations? That he was going to

33:39

mellow out and go really to Maine and

33:41

become a farmer and grow tomatoes? Do

33:43

you think that Ruthanne blamed herself

33:46

and of course her husband for

33:49

all of this? Or did you think

33:51

that it was nature not nurture from

33:53

her point of view of what made

33:55

Jesse Pomeroy like this? I don't think

33:57

she blamed herself. If anything, I think that's

33:59

it. I don't think she felt that she had tried

34:01

to help him. But I do

34:03

think she blamed her husband. She blamed

34:06

the teachers. She blamed the students. She

34:08

blamed everybody else but

34:10

herself. I don't think

34:12

she saw herself as having moved

34:15

houses as an indication

34:17

that maybe she could have stopped things.

34:19

If anything, she tried to help her son. No,

34:23

I don't think she saw it as

34:25

being at fault at all. No, but

34:27

her husband would have been at fault. Of course,

34:30

how did ultimately his life end,

34:32

Jesse Pomeroy, after all of this,

34:35

he lived to a very old

34:37

age. Yes, I mean, in 1929, he

34:39

was moved. He

34:41

finally left the state prison and

34:43

he was given a reprieve to

34:46

go to the Bridgewater State Hospital

34:49

because he was getting up there in

34:51

age and he wasn't feeling very well.

34:53

He was given a place where he

34:55

could be a little bit more, I

34:57

wouldn't say free, but have a little

34:59

bit more freedom to roam around, to

35:01

commune with other people, to be

35:04

taken care of. But she wasn't

35:06

very happy because, believe it or not,

35:08

in the state prison, he had his

35:10

own two rooms with his books,

35:12

his pens and things like that. At

35:15

the infirmary now, he was going to be taken

35:17

care of. He could roam around

35:19

the area outside. He

35:22

could make new friends. Still wasn't

35:24

happy. He still wanted to

35:26

have total freedom to move around

35:28

like he wanted. Even though he

35:30

died at a pretty good age,

35:33

when he got out to go to the

35:35

state infirmary, he was 68 for

35:37

all intents and purposes. He wasn't old,

35:40

old. He still felt that he could have

35:42

had a few good years left and

35:45

he wanted to spend those years on his

35:47

own. He didn't want to be supervised

35:49

in any way, shape or form. He

35:51

wanted to move. He wanted to

35:53

have a farm. He said he wanted to

35:55

become a farmer. He wanted to grow things.

35:58

Was it true? what he said. But

36:00

he said a lot of things throughout his life.

36:02

It didn't necessarily mean that those were true.

36:05

God only knows what he really wanted to do.

36:07

He was still in fairly decent health.

36:10

I mean, when he was younger, he

36:12

could tell children that he was just a boy that

36:14

could go away together. Now, he was an older

36:16

man. Would you trust

36:18

an older man? Was his instinct to

36:20

kill or to abuse children still there?

36:23

I don't know. Maybe. Probably,

36:26

yes. I would guess. Probably, yes.

36:28

Yeah. Okay. So what is, at

36:30

the end of this, his

36:32

life, what do you think is the

36:35

thing that we can learn the most

36:37

from the story of Jesse Pomeroy and

36:39

the tragedy of a young

36:41

boy who you said was

36:43

very intelligent, but something was

36:45

definitely wrong, whether it was

36:47

nature or nurture, both. Something

36:50

happened and he turned into

36:52

a monster who probably was

36:54

unlikely reformed. What

36:56

do you think the lesson for us is? The

36:59

lesson for me was never

37:01

take people for granted. I mean,

37:03

never underestimate children. If you think

37:06

that there is a problem there,

37:08

I think a lot of people

37:10

underestimated how intelligent and conniving he

37:13

was because even his

37:15

own mother. And I think at

37:17

the time, people were having

37:19

a difficult time believing that a child

37:21

was committing the crimes that he was

37:24

doing. And I think there was a

37:26

huge mistake on their part. People didn't

37:28

believe that someone so young could be

37:30

so conniving. That's not to say that

37:33

children have the capacity, you know what

37:35

I mean, to do horrible things,

37:37

but it doesn't hurt you. If

37:39

you see a problem to just take care

37:42

of it and try and nip it in

37:44

the bud early on, you mentioned that 60-year-old

37:46

boy and it's like, yes, seek

37:48

help if you think that help is

37:50

needed. Also, if you think that there

37:53

is a problem, community. Mrs. Pomeroy didn't

37:55

have anybody to rely on. And for

37:58

me, there was a huge, huge... huge red

38:00

flag. She was by herself. She

38:02

didn't have anybody to seek out

38:04

help from. I think help is

38:07

important. Also, the idea that you

38:09

don't really know whether it is

38:11

nurture or nature. I've tried

38:13

to, all of my books deal with

38:16

that kind of a situation. You know,

38:18

my first book was about Frankenstein, whether

38:20

it was nurturing or nature that made

38:23

out the creature. And

38:25

I'm still seeking out those questions.

38:27

Are we are because of nature

38:29

or nurturing? And even in Jesse

38:32

Pomeroy, we don't really know. You

38:34

know, was it because he was born

38:37

that way or because he was made

38:39

that way? He had a brother. Charles

38:41

turned out to be quite fine. He

38:43

lived in the same environment. He

38:46

also came out from a situation

38:48

from a dysfunctional family. Still,

38:50

he married, he had children. He may not

38:52

have been rich, but he

38:55

still had a fairly decent life. Granted,

38:57

he was not put down. He

38:59

was not bullied. He was not hurt

39:02

by his father. So is that what made

39:04

Jesse who he was? Who

39:06

knows? If

39:16

you love historical true crime stories,

39:19

check out the audio versions of

39:21

my books, The Ghost Club, All

39:23

That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock.

39:26

This has been an Exactly Right

39:28

production. Our senior producer is Alexis

39:30

Amorosi. Our associate producer is Christina

39:33

Chamberlain. Our mixing engineer is Ben

39:35

Talladay. Curtis Heath is our composer.

39:37

Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced

39:40

by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff, and

39:42

Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on

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and on Twitter at tenfoldmore. And

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if you know of a historical

39:51

crime that could use some attention

39:53

from the crew at Tenfold More

39:55

Wicked, email us at info at

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