1:59

around the world interviewing people

2:02

for the show and they are all excellent

2:04

writers. They've had so many great true

2:06

crime stories and now we want to tell you

2:09

those stories with details that have never

2:11

been published. 10 Fold War Wicked presents

2:14

Wicked Words. It's about the choices that

2:16

writers make good and bad. It's

2:18

a deep dive into the stories behind

2:21

the stories. What

2:24

would it be like to interview a

2:26

serial killer? New York Times bestselling

2:28

author Jillian Lauren knows. Her

2:31

haunting account of confronting Samuel

2:33

Little is detailed in her book Behold

2:36

the Monster. It's an amazing story

2:38

and in our chat Jillian explains

2:41

how she convinced Little to tell her

2:43

where one unknown victim was

2:46

buried. I read

2:49

an article that said that Samuel

2:51

Little has been underreported because

2:54

he's black. Do you think that that's

2:56

right? Do you think that this is some sort

2:58

of racism within how we report

3:01

on serial killers that they are the typical

3:03

white male? I

3:04

think that is a piece of it.

3:06

I think a larger piece of it is that

3:09

because his victims were.

3:10

You know there's this concept

3:13

that is not mine but I use

3:15

it and have

3:17

sort of popularized it recently

3:19

being less dead. You

3:21

know that there are certain victims that are more dead

3:24

and certain victims that are less dead

3:26

and victims that are less dead were the victims

3:29

that were cherry-picked by Sam Little

3:31

because he knew that people

3:34

wouldn't listen, wouldn't care. They were

3:37

largely women of color. Sex

3:40

workers, not all of them, often

3:42

addicted. Marginalized

3:44

women who lived on the fringes of society

3:47

who you know in a sense

3:49

were considered less human already

3:52

and when a quite beautiful

3:54

co-ed goes missing on spring

3:56

break that person is

3:59

the most dead. It'll make all the front

4:01

page news. And even

4:03

Sam's conviction for

4:06

three murders in the 80s didn't

4:09

get all that much coverage. It

4:11

wasn't until this second round

4:13

of jailhouse confessions where he really

4:16

showed the world who he was, stopped professing

4:18

his innocence, that he was

4:21

exposed for who he was.

4:23

And anyone started to take interest.

4:25

Well, let's do a very short

4:27

summary of Samuel

4:29

Little before we really can get into

4:32

the victims and then your relationship with him.

4:34

Sam Little was,

4:37

as I have been told by his family,

4:39

trouble from the day he was born, because I

4:41

think a lot of we want to know their stories

4:43

because we're looking for the wise. He

4:46

was molested by a member of his family

4:48

when he was four years old. He

4:51

wound up in a reform school,

4:53

the boys industrial school, at

4:55

the age of 13 for stealing a bicycle

4:58

for 19 months. And it was a

5:00

famously abusive place.

5:03

And he sustained

5:05

a lot of head trauma there. He began

5:07

boxing there. He wound up spending

5:10

until he was 25 in

5:13

and out of institutions,

5:15

the Ohio State Reformatory,

5:18

which you will know from Shawshank Redemption.

5:21

So when he got out of

5:23

there, he wanted to be a pimp. He

5:25

wanted to be a gangster. He wanted

5:27

to be a fighter. He was a middleweight

5:30

boxing champ in prison. And at

5:32

that time, that was a funnel

5:34

sometimes to the professional fights. And

5:38

it turned out that he really just

5:40

needed time to find his true passion,

5:43

which was murder.

5:45

How did that start for him? He's

5:47

obviously out and free at some point.

5:50

Is there some sort of a trigger for him

5:52

that changed everything? Like

5:55

many serial killers will hear in

5:57

an early interest in pornography or violence.

6:00

pornography. And in Sam's

6:03

days, so we're talking

6:06

about 1954, that he

6:08

was going into dime stores and stealing

6:10

two detective magazines. And he

6:12

started to read about strangulation.

6:14

And he got fixated

6:17

on it and it had always been fixated on

6:20

necks. Since a

6:22

little girl in his fifth grade class who

6:24

was stuck up was mean

6:26

to him and she had a long neck and he

6:29

fantasized about strangling

6:31

her, fantasized about strangling his

6:33

teacher. And he was unable

6:36

to have sexual

6:38

relations without strangling

6:41

a woman. It wasn't until he

6:43

was almost 30 that he killed

6:45

his first victim, but

6:48

he had been thinking about it and

6:50

building up to it all that time. Eventually

6:53

the girlfriend he was with, her

6:55

name is Jean, she was 30

6:58

years older than him. They

7:00

were together for 15 years and she was

7:02

a master shoplifter and they

7:04

drove around the country together

7:07

and she would shop list

7:09

and he would sometimes shop

7:11

list by date, but mostly she would

7:14

to support them. And then he'd go out

7:16

at night and solicit sex workers or,

7:19

you know, a vulnerable woman at a bar. Ultimately,

7:22

what is the number of victims? I know it varies

7:25

based on what he says, what the police said, what he

7:27

was convicted on. What are the number of victims that

7:29

we think it is before you meet

7:31

him? It was only three.

7:33

He was convicted

7:34

on three DNA hits,

7:37

three case-to-case hits

7:39

that the cold case special

7:41

section in Los Angeles Police Department

7:44

had a grant from the Department of Justice

7:47

to screen cold case evidence. And

7:50

they were screening evidence from the 80s

7:52

and that's how they got these hits.

7:54

The number of official concessions

7:57

that he gave to the FBI and local police.

8:00

jurisdictions is 93. The

8:04

current number of salts

8:07

is 62 and those were cleared or cleared

8:11

by exceptional means. I

8:13

had no idea, no

8:16

idea. Let's go back.

8:18

He's been convicted and what happens?

8:20

Do you see the story and you think,

8:22

wow, this is an opportunity to get

8:24

into somebody's head who really is

8:26

depraved and to try to figure out

8:29

what happened and if you can help in any

8:31

way, you write him a letter, reach out to

8:33

him and when did that happen? Well, the story

8:35

found me. I was working on a mystery

8:38

novel and I scored

8:40

an interview with this famous police

8:43

detective, Detective Mitzi Roberts,

8:45

who if anyone's a fan of Michael

8:47

Connelly and I think everyone's a fan of Michael

8:49

Connelly, the character of Renee Ballard

8:52

is based on her. She's a tough

8:54

interview to get. She's a tough interview

8:57

to do too. And so

8:59

I was interviewing her about some

9:01

historical LA crimes, just

9:03

about procedure, about her

9:06

career in general. At the very end

9:08

of the interview, as I often do

9:10

try to end an interview on a

9:12

high note, I said, what are you the

9:15

most proud of? She said, I'm proud of them

9:17

all but I did catch the serial killer

9:19

once and I was like, I

9:22

buried the lead, you know? And

9:24

she said, I'm not the one asking the

9:26

questions here. And so

9:28

she told me about Sam, how

9:31

she found him, about

9:33

the national manhunt

9:35

for him, because he was transient

9:38

so they had to locate him and no,

9:40

he was still out there killing or not.

9:43

I was fascinated by both the forensics, the

9:45

detective work that went into it and

9:48

also she told me that, you know,

9:50

she'd gone on this cross-country trip

9:53

talking to detectives who

9:55

all thought they had cold cases

9:58

that really looked like Sam. online,

12:00

they start letting the cars in at 9.30 and you'll get a number

12:02

and then wait. Bring

12:07

quarters because you're not cool

12:09

if you don't bring quarters. All you

12:12

can have is quarters in a clear

12:14

bag. Quarters, key fob

12:16

and your glasses prescription and

12:18

some photographs. Okay, now you have

12:21

to explain all of that except the key fob and probably

12:23

the photographs. In

12:26

order to bring glasses or anything,

12:29

I have to show my prescription. Oh,

12:31

wow. Okay. What about the

12:34

quarters? Well, the quarters are for the vending machines.

12:37

So the answer is it was a contact

12:39

visit and that is not what

12:41

I was expecting at all. When

12:44

I, you know, they're like, just go to B block. Okay,

12:46

so I walked through

12:48

the California desert. It is 110 degrees in the

12:51

shade out there. There's

12:55

a real filling of biblical kind

12:57

of punishment to this prison,

13:00

you know, mile high fences

13:02

with concertina wire and the guard towers

13:05

and the big cages you walk through. All

13:07

of that I was expecting, but

13:10

I was not expecting to walk into a

13:12

room where

13:13

there were just tables

13:16

and chairs and families

13:19

sitting there like, you know, inmates holding

13:22

their babies and, you

13:24

know, an area for the kids to play with Legos

13:26

and a photo booth and vending machines

13:29

all around microwaves. I

13:32

was really surprised. I had fully

13:34

expected the, you know,

13:37

like glass, you know, hand

13:39

on the glass with the phone and

13:41

there was that in the corner, but there

13:44

was something front and center.

13:46

I was also always being recorded. Was

13:49

that the case for everybody or just in this

13:51

case? It's the case for everybody.

13:53

Everyone's always being recorded. There's,

13:55

you know, 19 cameras in that room.

13:58

In this case, I didn't know. that

14:00

I had inserted myself into the middle of a

14:02

federal investigation. So just

14:04

as cops, federal,

14:09

Texas Rangers, local

14:11

cops are about to

14:14

try to crack this guy, this journalist

14:16

shows up. I think the Texas Ranger

14:19

James Holland, who is one of the main

14:21

players in the current Sam

14:23

Little investigation that's still

14:25

ongoing. So Sam Little sits

14:28

down across from you. You have a contact visit,

14:30

which was terrifying. No, he doesn't

14:32

sit down. He's already sitting. He's in a wheelchair.

14:35

Oh, yeah. I was looking at the door that other inmates

14:37

were coming in and out of, but

14:40

there must have been like a special door

14:42

for his disability because he

14:44

rolled up behind me. Oh, wow. Okay,

14:47

so he had been convicted of three.

14:49

Had he confessed to any others at this point?

14:52

Well, there were attempted

14:54

murders that, you know, got played down

14:57

to kidnapping and assault in San

14:59

Diego. He was acquitted in

15:02

Florida, in a Latchua, Florida

15:04

for the murder of Patricia

15:06

Mount because they said there was like a lack

15:09

of physical evidence. And then

15:11

there was a failure to indict by a

15:13

grand jury for the murder of Melinda Lapprie

15:16

in Pascagoula, Mississippi. So he

15:18

had never confessed to anything.

15:21

He always just said, you know, DNA

15:23

doesn't prove that I did anything.

15:26

It just proves that I was there. Also, there was

15:28

so much evidence destroyed there. You know,

15:30

he murdered in the South and a lot

15:32

of that evidence was destroyed during

15:35

Hurricane Katrina. You know, he professed

15:37

his innocence until the moment

15:39

that he didn't. What is his demeanor?

15:42

Is he aloof? Is he friendly? What's

15:44

he like? Always friendly.

15:46

Was it 78? But,

15:49

you know, my feeling

15:51

about him was like that he looked like

15:53

a ghost. There

15:55

was just an

15:58

absence to him.

17:51

She

18:00

said it was like that. It was like I can't

18:02

believe this happened. He had that

18:04

attitude to Sam Little. Absolutely.

18:07

I mean when you say like I got a parking ticket,

18:09

I have a great example. I had a

18:11

conversation with him where he

18:13

said, you know, all sins are equal. I'm forgiven.

18:16

He believed, you know, he was right with Jesus.

18:18

He was saved. He was forgiven. Thought

18:22

all you needed to do was ask. Every

18:24

time he killed somebody, he asked to be forgiven.

18:27

He was forgiven. That's St. Paul. That's the

18:29

Bible. And I was like, I don't

18:31

agree with you. And

18:33

he said, that's Jesus. That's

18:36

the Bible. And I said, you

18:38

know, I think even there's a hierarchy

18:40

in the Bible. And

18:43

he goes, no, killing is no different from

18:45

stealing a cookie from the cookie jar. I

18:48

was like, well, there are like the pen commandments.

18:51

So let's say

18:53

one, number one. And he couldn't

18:55

get it. He didn't even know the first commandment.

18:58

And it's just like Jesus is not your apologist.

19:02

But it's complicity bias,

19:04

right? Like he found justification

19:08

for what he wanted. He wanted and he

19:10

took. There was no question

19:12

that that was what he deserved

19:15

and that God made him that way. You

19:18

know, I said, well, it sounds like

19:20

you were lonely. I said, no, I

19:22

was hungry. I didn't ask

19:24

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22:57

What did he say his motivation was? Could

22:59

he articulate anything at all about what

23:02

was going on in his screwed up minds during

23:04

all of this? Love, you

23:07

know, he said, you know, everyone has

23:09

it wrong about me. I don't hate women. I love

23:12

women. All I ever wanted them to do was

23:14

cry in my

23:15

arms and then,

23:16

you know, and then they snub me. Then

23:18

they turn away from me and then they turn their

23:20

noses up, you know, and they're

23:23

snobby bitches.

23:25

Was he enamored with you? Do you think?

23:28

No, I don't. I think

23:30

he didn't want to be alone. I think he wanted a friend

23:32

and, and, and he wanted a journalist.

23:35

And then, you know, I think by the time he

23:37

started confessing, I don't

23:39

think it was his impulse. His

23:42

impulse was attention. I mean,

23:44

you know, he had all these detectives

23:46

coming, you know, bringing him oranges

23:48

from Florida, bringing him barbecue

23:51

from Kentucky, just flattering,

23:54

flattering, flattering him, getting these confessions

23:57

out of him, trying to match their cold

23:59

cases. He was having the time of his life.

24:02

He was getting McDonald's milkshakes,

24:04

he was getting to talk to this journalist,

24:07

he was just really having a good time,

24:10

but then he started to feel

24:12

the effects of the

24:14

same, get the fan letters

24:18

and people paying for

24:20

traces of his hand. It's disgusting.

24:24

It's disgusting. And

24:27

once he started to get that,

24:29

then he started to really enjoy it and play

24:31

to it and start to

24:34

get into the ego place where he was

24:36

just like, I did this thing. I

24:40

did the most in the world, I was the best.

24:43

I did this in the shadows.

24:46

No one, they just said I was a petty

24:48

thief and the whole time I was a murderer,

24:50

I fooled them all. How

24:53

does the first confession to you happen?

24:55

And then the rest just spill out? Yeah.

24:58

Once the dam broke. I

25:00

mean, it was always a back

25:03

and forth and he would mess with

25:05

me. But how the

25:07

first confession happened was I'd

25:10

been sitting with him in total

25:13

for over six hours and I was just like, this is

25:15

it. If he keeps bullshitting me, I'm

25:18

out. I don't have this kind of time. I'm missing my

25:20

kid's soccer game. I'm not going

25:22

to sit here and listen to how innocent

25:24

he is and how they

25:26

done him wrong. He started to tell a

25:28

story about this woman and get lost

25:31

in his own mind. He stopped

25:34

himself and he said, I want

25:36

a TV. And I said, I

25:38

want things too. He's

25:40

like, are you going to get me a TV? And

25:42

I was like, I don't know. And

25:44

he was like, I drum those yellow nails

25:46

on the table. And he was like, you got me.

25:49

Okay, you got me. What

25:51

do you want to know? Do you want to know about the first

25:54

one? And then he just started

25:56

this real like incantation

25:58

of murders. I mean, It was like 13 that

26:01

first day. Wow.

26:03

I was just

26:06

keeping my eye on the ball at

26:08

that point. I was like, there is no

26:10

room here for sentimentality or her

26:13

or shock, just remember every

26:15

single thing he says. Remember every single

26:17

thing he does. Did he know everybody's

26:20

name? He knew almost no one's

26:22

name. Because they were anonymous

26:24

to him. Yeah. He didn't

26:27

spend enough time. The murder

26:29

that I solved from bottom to

26:31

top was a woman named Alice.

26:34

He knew her name. He remembered her name because he

26:36

thought it was a pretty name. That was actually

26:39

one of the things that helped us saw that

26:41

case. Tell me what happens

26:43

with Alice, when it happens and where and all

26:45

that. In the middle

26:47

of this nationwide investigation,

26:50

we're hit with COVID, Black

26:53

Lives Matter protests are happening.

26:55

Cold cases got really put

26:57

to the side for a while. I

27:01

had all the confessions and

27:03

all this information. I

27:05

just decided to start really

27:08

exploring them in depth one by one. Just

27:10

the same way I was exploring these women's

27:13

lives, but meeting their families

27:15

by walking their footsteps. I

27:18

began to follow his confession.

27:23

He gives very specific directions

27:25

that he drove. If you're

27:27

not in Los Angeles, none of this is going to make sense to

27:30

you, but I can just say that basically

27:32

he was saying he left the body under an underpass

27:36

on a street that was on its way to the beach,

27:38

except that was in North South

27:40

Street and here the beach is west.

27:43

It's the east-west streets that go to

27:45

the beach. You don't get more west than this beach.

27:49

I found the place he picked her up. I

27:51

found the liquor store. She went and

27:54

I could not find the

27:57

place that he said he dumped his body.

28:00

I just started thinking about things

28:02

that didn't often gel in his confessions

28:05

and one of those was how long he

28:07

drove Because he drove so much.

28:09

I mean his cars were where he killed He

28:12

drove from one city to another,

28:15

you know, almost every day. It's

28:17

not every three days He

28:19

was always on the move so

28:22

he had a weird concept

28:25

of driving and time and And

28:27

also this is when he was on crack when

28:29

his mind started to get a little more adult

28:33

and it was possible that he took a turn

28:35

he didn't remember and He

28:38

said he was going to Dominique College

28:41

And then it started to occur to me that you

28:44

know, everything was right about it Except

28:46

if you took this one turn you'd

28:48

be going to Long Beach Long

28:50

Beach is south from here. It's

28:53

not the beach It's

28:55

a town called Long Beach and

28:58

in this town There's a college

29:00

called Cal State Dominguez once I

29:02

brought in the scope of where I was

29:05

looking I found some articles

29:07

that seemed to match his

29:10

confession and I went to the place

29:12

and Confirmed the details

29:15

and then I called detective

29:17

Rick Jackson. I really thought I that

29:20

I had enough I I just condensed

29:22

that I mean that case took me probably

29:24

six months Well, cuz

29:26

he didn't always want to talk about it

29:29

It was a lot of me going back to him

29:31

and saying it couldn't have been this I

29:33

called detective Rick Jackson who is

29:35

the original template

29:38

for the Harry Bosch character in the

29:40

HBO show And he's

29:42

retired now and he's sort of a mentor of

29:44

mine It's always good to have if

29:46

you can have a cop call for you So, you

29:49

don't sound like the crazy

29:51

person calling the tip line, you

29:54

know, like I solved I solved

29:55

a murder

29:59

He was like, give me a minute. He

30:02

called Long Beach and he

30:04

called me back in 20 minutes. He

30:07

was like, you sitting down? Yes,

30:10

they have this case and it is

30:12

still open. The

30:15

victim is identified and

30:17

her name is Alice Denise Duval.

30:20

Well, you could have knocked

30:22

me over with a feather.

30:24

I was like, well, I know that doesn't confirm

30:27

it. He's like, yeah,

30:29

he pretty much does, kiddo. You

30:32

solved a murder. I'm very

30:34

close with their family now. It was

30:36

just a cold case at that point.

30:39

Did they do any DNA? Yes. Then

30:41

of course, yeah. When I say

30:44

solved a murder, then I always have to clarify,

30:47

I can't solve a murder. I'm not a detective,

30:49

but that I did walk into Long

30:52

Beach Police Department and give them

30:54

all the information, the drawings

30:56

I had, the articles, the

30:58

overhead maps, the historical overhead

31:01

maps, all that, and the confession.

31:04

Then they were able to run

31:07

a YSCR DNA

31:09

and they got a partial,

31:12

and they cleared the case. What was

31:14

Sam

31:14

Little's reaction when you

31:16

told him this? That, well, I

31:19

took your information and I went and now, you're

31:21

connected to this case. Were you able

31:23

to tell him that? Yeah. I was on the phone

31:25

with him. Did he freak out? What was his reaction?

31:28

He said he was like, you did good. I

31:30

think you did good, honey. Oh, gosh.

31:33

You did really good. What was

31:35

that? What does that mean? Is that he's

31:37

trying to be a father figure to you and

31:39

bolster you so you'll continue to speak with

31:41

him, or did he want to help really

31:44

in a twisted way? No. He wanted

31:46

all the benefits of helping.

31:49

I mean, it felt like he wanted to help because he

31:51

cared about the victims or their

31:54

families. He wanted

31:56

recognition. He wanted that recognition.

31:58

Also, he wanted to be seen. as a good guy

32:01

who wanted to help. No. So

32:03

this is one case. Over

32:06

the span of how long, how

32:08

many people did he confess to

32:10

killing, to you specifically? Well,

32:13

there was a point at which the

32:15

Texas Rangers asked me if I could

32:17

back off my conversations

32:20

with him about the murders

32:22

because it was such an intense investigation.

32:26

You know, he could tell a wingnut

32:28

story, but if he tells a wingnut

32:30

story to me and then I call in

32:33

with it, you know, then that just gives

32:35

them a whole bunch of other details

32:37

they have to investigate if

32:39

they think they've already got it. They were like,

32:42

you know, don't contaminate the investigation,

32:45

you know, by solving these yourself. You

32:48

know, so there was a time that I

32:50

did back off it when it was during

32:52

the really heavy confessions. So,

32:54

you know, I would say I got probably 36

32:57

or 37 detailed

33:01

confessions out of him. I mean,

33:03

that's amazing. Is this something he would

33:05

have done with anybody

33:08

or any journalist who would have given him

33:10

the time and the patience to sit

33:12

there and listen to him eventually? Or do you

33:14

think it was something between the two

33:16

of you that made him feel

33:20

valued, whether it was a value

33:22

for you? You know, your value was not

33:25

his wonderful stories. The value to you was getting

33:27

answers for victims, helping law enforcement

33:30

and, of course, the book. Yeah, and

33:32

understanding, trying to understand,

33:34

you know, how we're always trying to understand

33:37

these egregious and aberrant

33:39

people who seem, you know, inhuman.

33:42

You know, he did have great stories,

33:45

but yeah, I was doing this to

33:47

keep him talking. I was doing this to

33:50

get the book. I was doing it to get the end of the

33:52

story. I was doing it because at this time,

33:55

by that time, you know, I was so

33:57

committed to the victims. It just...

34:00

I feel like that I've been living with

34:02

them for so long, every

34:04

minute of every day, just in my thoughts

34:07

and in my dreams. I was really

34:10

committed to doing everything I

34:13

can to restore their names,

34:15

restore their humanity, to try

34:17

to give them a voice. I

34:20

mean, I can never give them back their voice, but

34:24

I thought it was a worthy effort

34:27

to try.

34:28

How does this relationship

34:30

ultimately end? Or

34:32

the confessions, do they wind

34:35

down? Naturally, I know the Rangers said back

34:37

off. Do you ever return to that? I

34:40

do return to them. That was

34:42

when I started to look more

34:45

deeply into the confessions,

34:47

and that was when I was solving the Alice case

34:50

and trying on a couple of

34:52

others. I mean, it's still ongoing.

34:56

How it ended, his confessions

34:59

got more confused. There were so many,

35:02

I think. They had less value to me

35:04

at the end. I knew he was

35:06

going to die at some point, and

35:09

I thought, would I be comfortable?

35:11

I would keep a list of questions. I'd

35:14

be like, if this is the last time you get to talk

35:16

to him, what are the things

35:18

you think are the most important to

35:20

know? You're never going to get every last bit

35:22

of information out of him. We'll

35:24

be left with whatever we get here now. I

35:27

got a text at about five

35:30

in the morning on December 30, 2020,

35:34

and it said, pick up your phone. It

35:36

was from one of the detectives involved in the case,

35:38

and an hour later, I got a call from

35:41

the prison and the individual

35:44

on the phone told me that Sam Little had

35:46

died of complications from

35:48

COVID and were sorry for your loss.

35:51

And I just didn't know what to say to that.

35:54

I was like, no, don't apologize to me

35:57

for this, or feel like I need comfort.

36:00

It was just kind of this sort of shocking

36:03

feeling of quiet because I'd

36:05

been so hypervigilant. You know,

36:07

I carried my phone and

36:09

a reporter's notebook around

36:11

the house with me and a little

36:13

side purse because God forbid I'd

36:16

be outside with the dogs and miss

36:18

a call from a detective or from

36:20

Sam. If I missed a call,

36:23

then I'd get punished for

36:26

days. So, you know,

36:28

he was just very controlling

36:30

in that way. I don't think anyone

36:32

could have done it. No. Well. I do

36:35

think I have an understanding that you let

36:37

them tell you who to be. You

36:41

know, I let him tell me what

36:43

he sort of needed and then I became

36:46

that. Are the police grateful

36:48

or are they annoyed or sometimes

36:50

both, your involvement in this? Yes. I'm

36:54

saying yes or yes on all of that. Okay.

36:57

I think that I've had every

36:59

kind of experience with law

37:02

enforcement on this. There is

37:04

a general resistance to the press from

37:06

law enforcement. It tends to be an insular

37:09

community. So that's

37:12

a classic. You know, there's always

37:14

going to be a back and forth, you know, especially

37:16

when you're talking to the FBI, you know,

37:19

they really have very specific questions

37:21

you can ask and I'm monitoring

37:23

you and you have to go through

37:26

a lot of people. So, you

37:28

know, I think that many

37:30

of the cops were incredibly gracious

37:33

with me. Like I wouldn't say grateful. They

37:35

were gracious. They helped me. I

37:38

had a question for them, you know,

37:40

how to look at something or how to understand

37:43

something. And

37:45

they were very supportive for

37:47

the most part or wouldn't

37:50

talk to me at all.

37:51

So, Sam Little does one last thing

37:53

before he dies. And I know that it

37:55

must have been a shock to you. He

37:58

leaves you everything. in

38:00

his will. Yeah. He left me all

38:02

of his possessions. I mean, that must

38:04

have just been like, what the hell? Yes.

38:08

But I knew that he was naming

38:11

me as next of kin because

38:13

I wanted to donate his brain to

38:16

these neuroscientists at UC Irvine

38:18

and at Stanford. And

38:21

he also knew that. And then, you

38:23

know, it was the middle of COVID when

38:25

he died. There were meat trucks at the coroner's

38:28

office, that his paperwork wasn't

38:30

in order. And, you know, by the time

38:32

I could have gotten his brain, it

38:34

was useless. So that was like a

38:37

real shame. But I did

38:39

know that that was going to happen.

38:41

I just, I had hoped it would happen differently.

38:43

You know, I was trying to make a silk purse

38:45

out of a sousier. I'm like, listen, you guys,

38:48

I'm not being a ghoul, but this brain needs

38:50

to be kept at this temperature, you know,

38:53

until we work this out. But,

38:55

you know, they

38:56

weren't willing

38:58

or couldn't comply at the time. So

39:00

yeah,

39:00

I was so surprised

39:03

when the boxes of his stuff showed

39:05

up. And then I tell

39:07

this one story about Sam that I think really

39:10

encompasses, you know, how

39:12

many levels he was always working on.

39:14

So at the very end, our

39:16

last conversation before then

39:19

he went to the medical

39:21

unit and I didn't talk to him again for 10 days

39:23

before he died. He was like, you

39:26

know, you sent me ramen, but

39:28

you didn't send me a hot pot or just

39:30

like these other bitches, you know, how

39:32

popular I am right now. Do you know how

39:35

much I can make from, you know,

39:37

just drawing my hand for

39:39

somebody? And

39:41

then I got a letter in the mail from the

39:44

prison and I opened it and he left

39:46

me $1,097 something

39:50

cents. And I

39:53

was like, he had this money

39:55

all along. He had all this money all

39:57

along. What did all of that

39:59

mean? ultimately, I mean, just to end

40:01

this, why did he do that?

40:04

What did that symbolize to you?

40:06

He was always on the make.

40:08

You couldn't trust him at

40:10

all. I could never trust him. I could only

40:13

trust that

40:16

whatever barter I offered him at whatever

40:18

time was valuable enough for him

40:20

to hold up his end to the bargain or I'd be gone.

40:22

Blabbing your whole story

40:25

to another reporter, Robbe gone. Clearly,

40:28

another illustration of a transactional relationship.

40:30

That sounds like a terrible thing for

40:32

me to say. Transactional relationship sounds

40:35

so cold. But you are,

40:37

in your book, are allowing

40:39

people to understand just a little bit more

40:42

about someone who affected

40:45

so many people and caused

40:48

terror for people. And

40:50

you also, this work, while I know

40:52

it has gone into a book that

40:54

you benefit from, this work

40:57

has helped close chapters for families,

41:00

hopefully moving forward because, as you said, this

41:02

is an open investigation. That must feel

41:04

gratifying to a certain extent. But

41:07

it also has to be still, is

41:09

the stink off of you yet from Sam

41:12

Little and spending all that time listening

41:14

to everything he had to say? Never.

41:17

It really was the story of a lifetime

41:19

in some ways. I was

41:22

so scared of that story, that story you wait for,

41:25

but are scared of. I was sure I couldn't do

41:27

it. I

41:30

didn't feel equal to it. I

41:32

was so overwhelmed by all of a sudden dealing with all

41:34

this law enforcement

41:37

and legal issues and

41:40

having my record sipping. I

41:44

thought this is going to be the one

41:46

I can't do. It's

41:49

going to be the one I fail. In

41:52

many ways, I made many mistakes.

41:55

And those are all there in the book too. But

41:58

I do think that it's a... journey

42:00

and yes we do want to see inside

42:03

the mind of monsters you

42:06

know and we also want to see into

42:08

the heart of humanity. I

42:11

hope that I can both bring attention

42:14

to the issue of violence against women

42:16

and the dismissal of violence

42:19

against women particularly marginalized

42:21

women. That is my great hope. If

42:35

you love historical true crime stories

42:38

check out the audio versions of my books

42:40

The Ghost Club, All That is Wicked, and

42:42

American Sherlock. This has been an

42:44

Exactly Right Production. Our Senior

42:47

Producer is Alexis Amorosi. Our Associate

42:50

Producer is Christina Chamberlain.

42:52

This episode was mixed by John

42:54

Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

42:56

Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

42:59

Produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

43:01

Kilgariff, and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked

43:04

Words on Instagram and Facebook at

43:06

Tenfold More Wicked and on Twitter at

43:08

Tenfold More. And if you know of a historical

43:11

crime that could use some attention from the crew

43:13

at Tenfold More Wicked email us at

43:15

info at tenfoldmorewicked.com We'll

43:19

also take your suggestions

43:20

for true crime authors for Wicked

43:22

Words

43:24

at tenfoldmorewicked.com

43:26

We'll also take your suggestions

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43:30

Words.

43:39

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44:06

Ghosts aren't real. At least as a journalist,

44:08

that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd

44:10

things happen in my childhood bedroom, but

44:12

ultimately I shrug them off. That is until

44:14

a couple of years ago when I discovered that

44:17

every subsequent occupant of that house is

44:19

convinced they've experienced something inexplicable,

44:22

including being visited by the ghost of a faceless

44:24

woman. And it gets even stranger.

44:26

It just so happens that my wife's

44:29

great-grandmother was murdered in the house next

44:31

door by two gunshots to the face.

44:33

Is the ghost somehow connected to her murder? I

44:36

decided to go where no son-in-law should

44:38

ever go, digging up a cold case and

44:40

asking questions no one once answered. And

44:43

the guy who did the killing? It might have been my wife's

44:45

great-grandfather. This is a podcast

44:47

about family secrets, overwhelming

44:50

coincidence, and the things that come back

44:52

to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story on

44:54

the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

44:56

You can binge all episodes ad-free right

44:58

now by joining Wondery Pub.