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foreign

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[Music]

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speaking where scientists and engineers

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come together to chat about a common

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interest share knowledge and satisfy

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some curiosity I'm Laura and I'm joined

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by Ellie and Antonia to talk about the

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nesting habits of birds what we can

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learn from them and why it's important

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for scientists to know about them now

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before we get into all that quick thing

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to say is that our last two episodes

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involve live audiences from the

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engineering development trust and they

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actually came up with some really great

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ideas for future episodes so of course

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we had lots of suggestions about

0:30

engineering topics I particularly like

0:32

the suggestion about how engineering

0:33

links to other subjects like physics and

0:36

there were some requests for different

0:37

sciency things physics seemed strangely

0:39

popular obviously a lot of physicists in

0:41

the room quite like talking about

0:42

technically forensics and there was a

0:44

requests for earth science and

0:45

artificial intelligence in there as well

0:47

and we've done a little bit on that in

0:48

the past so more to come on those things

0:50

because we were talking a lot about

0:52

things relating to the environment in

0:54

those episodes we had lots of requests

0:55

for things to do with that as well so

0:57

sea levels could be something that we

0:59

talk about in the future definitely and

1:01

depolarization of plastics for recycling

1:03

sounds really intriguing again we were

1:06

talking about lots of energy related

1:07

things as well in the last few episodes

1:08

so lots of requests for things there too

1:10

and as I say we've covered some aspects

1:12

of these before like Renewables nuclear

1:14

we can always find more to say about

1:16

them and we've got lots of other ideas

1:17

on our lists already so we're glad to

1:19

have lots more suggestions to go with

1:21

that so um watch this space or listen to

1:23

the space Maybe to get back to the topic

1:26

of this episode It's All About nesting

1:28

habits of birds Ellie you're a zoologist

1:30

so I guess you know a lot about this so

1:33

what's your favorite bird to talk about

1:34

oh I don't ever think I can pick just

1:37

one bird but we're going to cover a lot

1:40

I think the thing I like most is that

1:42

the breadth of different birds they all

1:44

have different nests they all do

1:46

slightly different things for slightly

1:48

different reasons so I think really it's

1:51

each individual bird is special in its

1:53

own right oh that's a good way of

1:56

looking at it they've all got their pros

1:58

and cons I guess I have a horrible story

2:00

from the weekend about a bird of prey

2:02

that it might come up in this episode

2:04

but it is really a brick room oh no I'm

2:08

telling you to get me off the topic of

2:09

grimness I know you don't know as much

2:11

about this not being a zoologist being a

2:13

chemical engineer instead so uh what's

2:16

your kind of Interest or awareness of

2:19

bird nesting habits so I have lived

2:22

mostly in cities and I don't see a huge

2:25

variety of birds but there is something

2:28

that I've seen not in real life but on

2:31

the internet which I really do question

2:33

how much of it is based in reality and

2:36

how much of it was you know a doctored

2:39

photo or photoshopped and is the lazy

2:42

pigeon nest

2:44

have you seen them I have seen a little

2:47

bit about it but I I've not really heard

2:49

anything about this is it like a thing

2:51

on the internet like a meme I guess it's

2:53

kind of become a meme or like a

2:55

collection of photos that people have

2:58

are gathering together I found some

3:00

great examples

3:01

um and maybe we'll tweet about it later

3:03

or something but

3:04

essentially imagine a window ledge with

3:08

a few odd twigs and then just pigeon egg

3:12

in the middle doesn't feel very secured

3:16

and that is the nest fair enough so not

3:19

really an S just some sort of weirdness

3:21

I guess that could easily be just swept

3:23

aside it does feel like that it does

3:26

feel like was it accidental were the

3:28

Twigs put there on purpose were they

3:30

supposed to what was there more of a

3:33

nest before and it just blew away I feel

3:35

like no

3:36

[Laughter]

3:38

but I'm not a zoologist yeah like

3:41

literally someone is just like here's a

3:43

pigeon here are some sticks I'm just

3:44

gonna take a photo yeah I mean I would

3:46

say if that is a real thing usually they

3:48

have to be outliers because that's what

3:49

the internet kind of gravitates towards

3:51

It's the weird stuff right it's not the

3:53

everyday it's the his this strange thing

3:55

there's like one pigeon is doing I don't

3:57

know I I feel into Minds about this so

3:59

I've definitely been influenced by uh

4:02

meme culture to believe that pigeons

4:05

make really rubbish nests but then on

4:08

the other hand I think they just do make

4:10

really rubbish nests like they're not

4:12

one of the species that is putting in a

4:13

lot of effort now we're going to talk

4:15

about some examples of really incredible

4:17

nests today but these ones they're just

4:21

not up there in the grand bird nest

4:24

ranking system they're not even they're

4:26

not even making the bottom ten they're

4:29

just they're so poor but maybe there's

4:32

also you know if this is an outlier of a

4:34

really rubbish pigeon maybe there is one

4:36

pigeon out there putting in a lot of

4:37

effort uh to make a slightly better Nest

4:40

but I think yeah famously they are just

4:42

rubbish but then does that mean the nest

4:45

doesn't really

4:46

stop them or hold them back from being

4:49

as pervasive as they are as a species

4:52

they they very much are in the cities so

4:56

did they need any better Nest I think

4:58

that's the thing as well if you think

5:00

do they need a better Nest they're

5:02

clearly surviving there's loads of

5:04

pigeons all around the world maybe what

5:06

they have going for them is that they're

5:08

not putting a lot of effort in but it

5:09

doesn't seem to matter you know they're

5:11

eggs are still hatching the younger

5:13

still maturing maybe it's okay that

5:15

their nests aren't very good

5:17

I mean I guess I tend to associate

5:19

pigeons with people right they're a

5:21

pigeon lost near me where people keep

5:23

pigeons and you see as you say you see

5:25

them in cities a lot I don't see a whole

5:26

lot around here they're probably

5:27

competing with the uh seagulls though

5:29

but if they've got all these people

5:31

doing all these things maybe they just

5:33

they don't need to they can just

5:35

piggyback off what humans are doing that

5:37

sounds weird

5:39

there's a lot of

5:41

anti-bird thing on buildings

5:44

will Lobby against you know

5:47

species nesting and covering you know

5:49

historical buildings like the spikes and

5:52

the um barbed wire over fences and The

5:55

netting and all of that sort of thing

5:56

and it's actually been there was a study

5:58

done quite recently I think it was

6:00

mainly magpies but they found that

6:01

magpies were ripping off like plastic

6:03

anti-bird nesting material from

6:06

buildings and using it to build nests

6:08

which is I think possibly one of my

6:10

favorite studies ever okay I think that

6:12

was a news recently wasn't it that's

6:14

quite funny that's fun Counterpoint

6:16

though I've been to sites where they did

6:20

put nesting not nesting netting up to

6:23

prevent birds because they had plant

6:27

equipment as in

6:29

um like

6:30

ventilation and air handling units and

6:34

because they were on the roof they did

6:35

get a lot of bird excrement that they

6:38

then had to clean because then that

6:40

could get into your vents and things

6:43

like that so uh yeah how do we

6:47

live in a nice balance without

6:49

having to deal with all that and also

6:52

not having to uh Force birds out of the

6:56

places where we want to be yeah I think

6:58

there's definitely a balance of like

7:00

some anti-bird measures are

7:03

destructive to bird like birds will get

7:05

tangled in nettings they'll starve

7:07

they'll die which is awful

7:10

but yeah a situation like that where you

7:12

don't want bird excrement in a certain

7:14

area for a certain reason and it can be

7:16

very corrosive I think that's and one

7:18

argument to like protect buildings but

7:20

there are better methods of dissuading

7:23

birds from sitting on a building but

7:25

also they're going to do it I think

7:27

that's the thing as well there is up to

7:29

us to come up with better

7:31

defenses for lack of a better word then

7:34

the birds aren't going to change their

7:36

behaviors

7:37

necessarily like if it's a roof they're

7:39

just going to sit on a roof because they

7:40

don't know any better so yeah but the

7:43

the tangles ones are quite harsh like

7:45

there's horrible images of birds Tangled

7:47

in like netting and things like that

7:48

which is just mean and completely

7:51

unnecessary I think in many ways I've

7:54

heard that we've humans have gotten rid

7:57

of quite a lot of habitat that the birds

7:59

would have used so they're sort of

8:00

adapting to that and this is one reason

8:02

that we put up nest boxes in the garden

8:05

and I've been feeding birds for years

8:07

and we have quite a few trees so we get

8:09

quite a few Birds coming in and it just

8:11

kind of made sense to give them

8:12

somewhere to live as well

8:13

so we have three nest boxes and I think

8:16

the first year we put them up we ended

8:19

up with some

8:20

um blue tits living in them

8:23

and they must have created a nest and

8:24

had babies because I found one very

8:27

young one on the floor obviously not

8:29

alive anymore I thought that's a bit sad

8:30

but it happens I've seen it before

8:33

and then a few days later I saw a

8:36

sparrow coming out with a nest box I

8:37

thought what that doesn't seem right

8:40

so I looked it up and it's a thing

8:42

there's a spiral Colony near us I knew

8:43

this as well but what I didn't know is

8:45

that Spyros will attack the nests of

8:47

other birds and destroy the eggs and

8:49

force the adults out

8:51

oh I'm sorry it's I really like blue

8:53

tits they're like ninjas that's so

8:55

brutal I never thought that of a little

8:58

Sparrow yeah I think it's surprising how

9:00

many of these like Garden Birds species

9:02

are quite feisty yeah I just thought it

9:04

was rude there's so much food and so

9:05

much other habitat around you really

9:07

need to do that you're well fed birds

9:09

like half people in my neighborhood have

9:11

got bird feeders out do they need all

9:13

that food and I feel like they're not uh

9:16

getting rid of the blue tits to then use

9:17

the nest or are they were they then

9:19

nesting in it no they were just being

9:20

bullies yeah pretty much yeah they were

9:23

just I guess you could see it's

9:25

defending the territory right but the

9:26

blue tits come into the garden anyway

9:28

and take food so I don't think it really

9:29

achieved much they're just being

9:31

horrible little birds

9:33

I really never expected of the uh the

9:37

Little Sparrow now I always thought they

9:38

were really cute up until I saw them

9:40

coming out and of what was an invasion

9:43

I'm like maybe not you make a good point

9:45

about nest boxes though I think that is

9:48

such a good way to like support your

9:49

local wildlife

9:51

and if you can have like nest boxes in

9:53

your garden because you'll get lots of

9:54

species as well my boyfriend's parents

9:56

get quite often blue tits nesting in

9:58

their Garden

9:59

it'll things like that great tits come

10:01

in and lay eggs it's really nice as well

10:03

and you can often see the chicks because

10:05

you'll see the parents coming back and

10:07

forth with caterpillars and different

10:09

food for them and you'll see the chick's

10:11

fledge which is always adorable yeah

10:13

we'd had great tips the year after so we

10:15

did some modifications we have a

10:16

specialist blue tip box now with a

10:18

smaller opening The Sparrows can't get

10:19

into oh it's not being used yet but you

10:22

never know but then the other nest with

10:24

the bigger hole that presumably sparrows

10:25

could fit into we ended up with great

10:27

tits and I guess as far as leave them

10:29

alone so yeah we did see little heads

10:30

appearing at the the holes they were

10:32

sort of chooping away asking for food

10:34

and again another bird on the floor this

10:36

one more feathers was a light it was

10:39

right next to a tree and I was out in

10:40

the garden with the dog throwing a ball

10:42

around and the ball nearly hit this

10:44

little bird because I hadn't seen it so

10:46

I went over to pick it up and like did

10:48

we put it back in the nest we looked it

10:50

up again before we did other things like

10:51

yes it's probably okay because it's big

10:53

enough and then a few days later we

10:55

found either the same bird or another

10:56

bird from the nest on the floor and we

10:58

thought we'll just leave yeah I think

11:00

the advice is genuinely if you find a

11:02

baby bird leave it because chances are

11:04

the parents are still feeding it on the

11:06

floor obviously depends how big it is

11:08

and all the rest of it but yeah often

11:11

they will fall out because

11:13

it could be windy or it could be a storm

11:15

or anything but yeah usually leave it

11:18

and monitor it and see if the parents

11:19

come back to feed it yeah the only

11:21

reason we thought it would be a good

11:22

idea to try and help it back in was

11:24

because there are quite a few cats

11:25

around and we didn't want anything to

11:27

get it when it had like no chance

11:29

because it couldn't quite fly it was

11:30

trying so we thought maybe it is best to

11:33

put it home but then it was also looked

11:35

quite full in there so maybe it wasn't

11:37

too crowded yeah oh we didn't get to see

11:40

them fledge unfortunately it was just

11:41

suddenly empty and that was a once they

11:43

fledged it sounds like they don't go

11:44

back they just kind of yeah they'll be

11:46

out then yeah they'll find their own

11:48

places to live in North I guess they

11:49

come back in the garden for food but

11:51

that's it so it's nice to see them

11:53

around but still a bit sad that they're

11:54

not living in our garden anymore

11:57

especially now as it gets towards Autumn

12:00

I'm sure they'll be coming back if

12:01

you've got lots of fat balls and peanuts

12:03

and all sorts on your bird feeder then

12:04

you might even see this year's brood

12:06

return yeah but I guess we wouldn't know

12:08

and uh I mean am I right in thinking

12:11

that they only Nest like I suppose it

12:13

helps to say what's the definition of a

12:15

nest I assume it's when they're gonna

12:17

raise chicks and they need somewhere to

12:19

put the eggs and that's all they're

12:20

using nest for but is that right yeah

12:23

that's what I would say definitely like

12:24

for brooding for laying eggs brooding

12:27

the eggs

12:28

feeding the chicks and then until the

12:30

chicks fledged that would be the place

12:31

where a bird nests I think I would go

12:34

with that definition for the rest of the

12:36

time they're kind of nomadic they'll

12:38

just sleep in different places they'll

12:40

come back to the same place you would

12:42

call that the nest I guess some might

12:44

most birds and this might be a sweeping

12:47

generalization but will have like a nest

12:50

season so they'll have a breeding time

12:53

and then the females all the males or

12:55

sometimes both will then build the nest

12:57

lay the eggs that whole season usually

13:00

in the Summer where food is more

13:01

abundant will happen and then again in

13:03

the winter they'll disperse and go back

13:06

around what do they do in Winter to stay

13:08

warm do they not use the nest then I

13:10

wouldn't have thought so but I couldn't

13:13

say for certain for all bird species but

13:15

largely The Nest is for the raising of

13:17

young I would say it could be wrong so I

13:20

guess in the winter they'll just find

13:21

some other place to hold up and

13:24

and keep warm and dry like a birdhouse

13:26

yeah I mean you do see birds going into

13:29

bird houses occasionally they often

13:31

clear up as well so like blue tits in

13:33

Laura's Garden will probably go in

13:35

earlier

13:36

and do a little tidy round as it were

13:38

and you know eat any spiders or anything

13:41

that's gone in there uh before

13:44

and then they'll come back knowing that

13:46

that Nest box is there knowing that that

13:48

Nest is there they'll probably come back

13:49

each year ah we'll wait and see then we

13:52

did have um a blue tit using it

13:54

occasionally it was definitely winter

13:56

because I could sort of watch like dusk

13:58

it would go in there just before it does

13:59

scary evening and that seemed to be it

14:01

for the night oh like it was using it to

14:03

hide out but again no Nest so I thought

14:06

that was pretty cool it's a bit

14:07

disappointed that it didn't end up

14:08

building an S but also it was the the

14:10

box of the larger hole so it might have

14:12

been attacked by sparrows again oh yeah

14:14

it could have been yeah so yeah um wait

14:17

to see what happens next year now yeah I

14:20

hope they come back yeah but there are

14:21

quite a few migratory Birds near me as

14:24

well like swallows Swift so because I

14:26

live near the coast next to an rspb area

14:28

there are gilimots as well which is

14:30

quite cool

14:33

I think some of the coolest looking

14:36

sea birds we've got in the United

14:38

Kingdom very fancy I have never gotten

14:41

all that close to a gitlyn up but when

14:42

they nest

14:43

um or when they I guess Roost on cliffs

14:46

I'm not sure if they build this I can't

14:48

really see them from where I the viewing

14:50

Platformers they're noisy they're like

14:52

it's like a team of dogs like they're

14:54

barking at each other

14:56

yeah they are loud and they're nest in

14:58

colonies as well so you often get lots

15:01

of gila mats all together yes I wouldn't

15:04

say they really build a nest in the way

15:06

look like a blue tit would

15:08

but they yeah they nest on cliffs on the

15:11

sea you know above the sea on these

15:14

Coastal places in groups and they'll

15:16

probably just lay the egg on the bear

15:18

Rock and yeah incubate it but they're

15:21

they're cool because they

15:23

do it kind of like what a blue tit would

15:25

do but to a much much more extent in

15:27

that they'll be at Sea all year and

15:30

they'll come back to the cliffs in the

15:31

summer months sort of like I guess June

15:33

to August maybe May to September

15:35

depending on the weather

15:36

breed raise the chicks feed them and

15:40

then they'll go off again back into the

15:41

sea

15:42

also for the chicks that is a fun Maiden

15:45

flight because if you fall you're gonna

15:47

get all wet whereas in Laura's Garden

15:49

you might just have a soft landing on

15:51

the grass

15:53

yeah flutter down a bit

15:55

but I guess they can I because I'm

15:57

imagining where the cliffs are a lot of

15:58

rocks underneath so it could be a

16:00

plummet into Doom it could yeah if you

16:02

can style it out and glide out with it

16:04

I'd have no idea if glimmots are good at

16:05

gliding

16:09

maybe one of the the

16:11

adult be able to style it out but I

16:13

think it was your first flight you've

16:14

gotta gotta put some serious flapaging

16:16

yeah probably not so stylish but as long

16:17

as you avoid the Rocks right doesn't

16:18

matter if you get a bit wet you receive

16:20

bird you're a sea bird yeah that's your

16:21

that's your whole point you'll be diving

16:23

yeah I gotta say I'm I feel like I'm

16:25

gonna keep bringing on the Grim news

16:26

about bird deaths and birds attacking

16:28

each other the bird flu is a really big

16:30

problem at the minute isn't it yeah and

16:32

it seems to be particularly affecting uh

16:34

seabirds I've been part because they

16:37

migrate because when they all come

16:38

together they start sharing all these

16:40

viruses that they may not have been

16:41

exposed to a little bit like freshers

16:42

week at University

16:44

the freshest flu of the Birdwell

16:49

differently it's a lot of corpses on the

16:52

beach which like again it was it was a

16:55

bit it's like something out of Ender

16:56

days you started walking and you'd see

16:58

one and then you see another and then

17:00

you look down the beach and realize

17:01

quite how many there were like dozens

17:02

and dozens that is awful yeah it's not

17:06

just coronavirus it's a problem for

17:08

humans or like three pandemics at the

17:10

minute coronavirus bird flu and monkey

17:12

pox I think

17:14

oh God so and seabirds seem to be

17:17

particularly affected I guess one

17:18

because they migrate and also because

17:20

they relying on the scene the sea is

17:22

overfished for them so they don't have a

17:24

lot of food yeah probably also because

17:25

they nest in these large colonies so it

17:27

probably spreads quite rapidly when they

17:29

all come back together I do wonder if

17:31

they spread out do they tend to come

17:33

back to the same place

17:34

yeah I think so I'm pretty sure that you

17:37

have like reports of because they do a

17:39

lot of bird ringing of these sorts of

17:41

birds to see where they're going and how

17:42

far they travel so you can recap or

17:46

rescan the same Birds multiple times and

17:49

see when they come back it's like those

17:51

um famous Albatross oh wisdom

17:54

she's like the best breeding albatross

17:57

in the world and she's really old I

18:00

think she may be over 40 or something

18:01

possibly even older and she's like come

18:04

back to the same island for the breeding

18:06

season

18:07

almost every year she's amazing wow I

18:11

guess there's only like

18:12

you can only ring I can tag so many

18:14

birds right

18:15

yeah there's the rest of it just sort of

18:18

sitting out watching I'm sure we've

18:20

discussed this before in another episode

18:21

like you'd sit in a bird hide and you

18:22

just spend all day seeing what happens

18:24

and that would be like someone's PhD

18:26

potentially my research was just taking

18:29

this field for a year observing what

18:31

happened yeah I mean that is how you

18:34

learn right is you've got to be out

18:35

there watching so yeah you can put tags

18:38

on and I used to sell um animal tracking

18:40

equipment bird tags to researchers uh to

18:43

see where they were going and the data

18:45

you get back is extraordinary I mean

18:47

swallows something like a swallow

18:49

migrate 6 000 miles from South Africa to

18:52

the UK every year I'm back and that's

18:55

not a big bird yeah they're tiny and

18:58

they're flying all that way and they

18:59

don't really stop they like they sleep

19:01

on the wing they eat on the wing they

19:04

don't really land until they again get

19:05

to the UK and build their nests wow

19:08

which is why everyone should gets with

19:09

bricks Swift and swallow Bricks Built

19:12

into their houses they're trying to make

19:13

that a uh like a UK legal requirement

19:16

that new houses will be built with swift

19:19

Bricks Built in is that because again

19:21

loss of habitat that we need to

19:23

compensate for that yeah I mean loads of

19:27

bird species again terrible Doom and

19:29

Gloom but are in Decline due to loss of

19:31

habitat climate change

19:33

etc etc so yeah it's just one sort of

19:36

semi-easy thing that you could do is to

19:38

get a swift brick protect these lovely

19:40

species see that's a very long way to go

19:43

for an environment that we seem to be

19:45

seeing isn't actually all that

19:46

hospitable if we need to manufacture

19:48

ways Birds to live I think you've got to

19:51

remember as well that it's like the

19:52

flipped Seasons because they're coming

19:53

from South Africa if they stayed it

19:55

would be winter and so they're coming

19:57

for our summer and then so they're

19:59

having like a perpetual

20:01

almost a Perpetual summer which makes a

20:03

lot more sense to me yeah I tend to

20:05

think about with someone as being not

20:07

quite as um hospitable maybe it's the

20:10

right words depends depends what you

20:12

like I suppose like here it's kind of

20:15

usually kind of coldish and wet it

20:18

doesn't sound like what I imagine my

20:20

usual summer habitat is maybe it's

20:22

better you know the grass is always

20:23

greener on the other side and that's why

20:26

they never stick around for the winner

20:28

it's also availability so often they're

20:31

they're chasing insects right so that's

20:33

what they're eating so if it gets colder

20:35

in South Africa there's going to be less

20:37

insects so it's worse than coming all

20:39

the way up here to eat our insects for

20:41

us which we appreciate

20:44

I for some reason want

20:47

um this sand Martins migrate are they in

20:50

the same class as the swallows and the

20:51

Swifts

20:52

they are in the same class so much as

20:55

they're like part of that

20:58

autonomic group I don't know how far you

21:01

have to go back but I don't know if San

21:03

Martin's do migrate or whether there's a

21:05

resident

21:06

population in the UK all the way around

21:08

because you hear a lot about the

21:09

swallows and Swifts coming home but I

21:12

don't think the San Martin's migrate as

21:15

much or there might be resident

21:17

population as some of them are great ah

21:20

the reason I ask is because we have some

21:21

of those around here as well and the

21:23

sand banks with the beaches and that is

21:24

quite funny when you walk over to these

21:26

little holes in the sand and a bird

21:28

suddenly flies out

21:32

I assume that unless they maintain those

21:36

like Burrows I guess they are so just

21:38

holes in the sand right yeah yeah it

21:40

doesn't really count does that count as

21:41

a nest or is it absolutely definitely

21:44

cancels in there I could yeah I can

21:46

imagine it would take a lot of effort to

21:47

maintain that if you're not there for

21:48

half a year later if it's collapsed and

21:50

you've gotten all the way from South

21:52

Africa and you're out early knackers and

21:53

you're like I've got nowhere to sleep

21:56

it also seems fairly simple though if

21:59

you are just looking for some sand and

22:01

you just

22:02

drill all the way through and then there

22:04

you go as big as you and yourself it

22:08

doesn't sit you and yourself

22:11

you and your family if they are you know

22:13

nesting as a group or not then it

22:16

doesn't seem too difficult they did just

22:19

manage to fly all the way from

22:21

from another continent

22:24

maybe that's the payoff you spend all

22:26

that energy flying that you keep your

22:27

nest relatively straightforward and you

22:30

just have a little hole in the sand so

22:31

San Martens do migrate so I was yeah

22:34

they come back every year like the

22:36

swallows so they get here then they have

22:37

to go dig out a hole like with their

22:39

beaks I imagine I can't really see how

22:41

it would work or they fly fast enough to

22:44

just

22:45

straight through

22:47

just embed themselves in it and that's

22:49

it like a bird wrecking ball yep no

22:52

there will be doing it with their beaks

22:54

yeah wow but also they come back it's

22:56

the same principle like they come back

22:57

to the same places every year so chances

22:59

are they'll they'll be holes left over

23:01

and they won't have to make too many

23:03

renovations

23:04

unless the sandbanks collapsed see I'm I

23:07

am the doombringer today

23:08

that's all I've got

23:10

yeah well that's I suppose it's the

23:12

thing as well there's more development

23:14

right so if someone decides to develop

23:16

their sandbank their property their land

23:19

then there would be in theory nowhere

23:22

for that particular portion of those

23:24

sammartins to nest which is why we need

23:26

to protect these spaces can serve them

23:28

for

23:29

is that your camera that is my cat she's

23:31

very loud yeah she's looking at me

23:33

demanding more food as always she's

23:35

hearing the word birds like all birds of

23:37

fruit

23:38

food she's an indoor cat everyone she

23:41

cannot attack the birds maybe maybe if

23:43

there was bird nesting would it oh she

23:45

absolutely would if I if you've given

23:48

half a chance she would go for it and I

23:50

think the worst thing or the thing that

23:52

Springs to my mind is that cats don't

23:54

really finish the job they kind of do it

23:57

to to play more than anything and so I

24:00

feel like that would annoy me more that

24:02

it's like this bird has died for your

24:05

very short live enjoyment because no

24:07

doubt you will just wander off and

24:09

forget that you did this and now there's

24:11

just a mess so that's why my cat is also

24:14

in Orca yeah I think it's Thrill of the

24:16

chase a lot of the time like I guess

24:18

sunburns some cats eat the birds they

24:20

kill but a lot of the time it is

24:22

probably just the

24:23

active catching them yeah so I guess

24:26

we've talked a bit about birds in the UK

24:28

or birds that I've seen a lot of funnily

24:31

enough

24:32

I get to get away from that a bit

24:34

Penguins I've seen them in the zoo I

24:36

don't understand them they just smell a

24:38

fish don't get them

24:39

of all the things I thought you were

24:41

going to say after the word penguins

24:43

that sentence was not one of them oh

24:45

yeah they're really cute I mean they are

24:47

but they smell I'm sorry oh they do

24:49

smell no I fully agree with you on that

24:51

one but they're sea birds they eat fish

24:53

I mean they smell like fish it's not

24:55

it's like if you had a curry you'd smell

24:56

a chicken tikka masala for the rest of

24:58

the day I kind of think that would be

25:00

like if I just threw it all over me this

25:01

is what I imagine the penguin just kind

25:03

of bathed in

25:06

but there you go they've got very

25:10

different uh habits for if we talk about

25:12

nesting essentially like how you raise

25:13

your young I suppose is what we're

25:15

talking about yeah I think the famous

25:16

ones are the emperor penguins

25:19

in uh South Pole because they don't

25:22

really build nests because they do it

25:24

all on their feet

25:25

so they'll come together

25:27

they'll breed and then the female will

25:30

lay an egg and the Egg will be laid on

25:33

the feet of the female and then they'll

25:35

do a very kind of shuffling motion and

25:38

pass the egg from the female to the male

25:40

who will have like who will have spent

25:42

the summer fattening up eating loads of

25:45

fish eating loads of squid and then

25:46

they've got like a special

25:48

just gonna call it a muffin top but for

25:51

a lack of a better word

25:52

pout not pouch because that's like kind

25:55

of marsupialy the flap of skin you know

25:58

what I mean yeah the colors the egg that

26:00

protects it from the elements that keeps

26:01

it warm

26:02

and then they'll just the males will

26:04

brewed the eggs and the females will

26:06

toddle off Back to the Sea and they'll

26:09

then spend a few weeks getting all the

26:12

fish getting all the food the males will

26:13

Brew the egg that's when they huddle

26:15

together you see all those lovely David

26:16

Attenborough shots of the male Penguins

26:17

all

26:18

packed together doing the little swirls

26:20

to keep themselves warm in the winter

26:22

and then yeah the eggs will hatched the

26:24

females come back and then they'll take

26:25

turns going to see to keep the

26:28

keep the chick alive ah yeah that does

26:31

sound a bit more cuter than a discussion

26:33

of cats playing with birds and birds

26:36

killing other birds because they can

26:37

yeah yeah but I mean again it's if you

26:40

want Doom and Gloom and you've got Doom

26:41

and Gloom from Penguins because there

26:43

was literally a study the other day

26:44

about how I think it's like 10 000

26:46

chicks haven't made it this year because

26:48

of lack of sea ice so oh not even the

26:51

penguins are safe at the South Pole no

26:53

another effective human activity in an

26:56

area that we don't even go to all that

26:58

often right no it's literally the only

27:00

population is like a few scientists

27:03

studying different things but yeah but I

27:07

mean the the behavior itself is really

27:08

cool and really fascinating the fact

27:10

that they don't they have no trees right

27:12

so they're not like a blue tip

27:13

billionest from twigs and leaves and all

27:15

sorts there's nothing there to build the

27:17

nest from so they've got this adaptation

27:19

of their feet and of their little skin

27:21

flap to keep the egg warm and then yeah

27:24

go back and feed the chick how did they

27:25

develop that habit though of walking

27:29

together with with the egg because

27:31

because they don't just stay in one spot

27:33

they kind of get closer to like

27:36

to see I think if I remember the

27:39

documentary right so they'll their males

27:41

will stay initially in one spot

27:44

altogether and then I think as the egg

27:46

hatches and the chick matures eventually

27:49

they'll they'll go back towards the sea

27:51

to be closer March of the Penguins

27:53

thinking of that documentary was it a

27:56

film or am I mixing it up with Happy

27:58

Feet and getting totally confused

28:02

is sort of like uh I don't know a bit of

28:05

artistic license taken with I can't

28:08

remember it's been a long time since

28:09

I've seen it based in fact but maybe a

28:12

bit entertainment arised it's like

28:14

footage Plus

28:17

story building I guess yeah story

28:20

building oh my God

28:23

no narrative with a bit of fiction I

28:26

think yeah a little bit more

28:29

entertainment than perhaps a David

28:31

Attenborough would

28:32

would be but yeah I haven't seen it in a

28:34

long time someone watched March of the

28:36

Penguins and tweet us and let us know

28:37

what it's like apparently they call it a

28:39

feature of nature documentary so maybe

28:42

we should shouldn't say it is dramatized

28:45

oh okay I'll take it back but then I

28:47

guess it it's up to the uh the viewer to

28:50

decide for themselves and if they want

28:52

to look into it like all scientists do

28:54

so you'd sort of you'd look at one body

28:56

of evidence then you cross-reference

28:57

other Bodies of Evidence right and you'd

28:58

see what is the consensus what do the

29:00

other experts say so if anyone is going

29:02

to go and watch it then tell us how it

29:05

compares to other things that you've

29:06

watched and do you really believe what

29:08

you're seeing it's documentaries I guess

29:10

are only as good as the research they're

29:11

built on not saying that they didn't do

29:14

a lot of research but you can show it in

29:16

a different way I suppose

29:18

yeah absolutely they've got some more

29:21

exciting foreign examples of uh fun

29:24

Birds tell you about so I think I've

29:26

snuck bowel birds in here which I think

29:28

is perhaps slightly cheating but they're

29:30

cool and I wanted to talk about them so

29:32

yeah I have to enjoy it

29:36

um so the male Bower bird

29:38

is out to impress right so he is

29:41

spending quite a lot of time building

29:44

this Bower structure which is all twigs

29:48

and bits of tree and leaves built into

29:52

sort of a an archway or like a little

29:55

tunnel

29:56

and then he'll get different berries

29:58

flowers brightly colored objects that

30:01

you can find and he'll decorate

30:03

his Bower

30:04

in the hopes of impressing a female that

30:07

will be passing through the area

30:10

and these you should all look them up

30:12

because these bowel blood structures are

30:14

amazing when you consider that they're

30:16

built by a bird probably not really that

30:18

much bigger than a black bird

30:20

but what I think is funny about this is

30:22

that you'd think that would be it so the

30:24

battle bird is built his beautiful Bower

30:26

he's impressed the female they've mated

30:28

but then what actually happened is that

30:30

the female will then leave that'll be

30:32

that interaction done and she'll go and

30:34

build her own nest and lay the eggs and

30:36

raise the chicks and wow so it's

30:38

literally just to attract a mate and

30:41

then she does whatever she wants yeah

30:44

pretty much it's a display platform a

30:47

stage wow that is weird so does the male

30:50

battle Bird live in his nest whilst he's

30:53

built it or after he's built it while

30:55

he's building it he'll be there most of

30:57

the time but it's not really like a nest

30:59

where you would like be sheltered from

31:01

predators or be like asleep or be

31:04

resting it's purely like a yeah it's

31:07

purely a breeding a brooding stage a

31:09

display if we're defining in Estes a

31:11

place where to raise chicks it's

31:13

technically not a nest doesn't mean our

31:15

definition yeah exactly it's just

31:17

showing off yeah

31:20

it's like purely decorative furniture

31:23

that does not have great utility yeah

31:26

exactly it's uh Art For Art's Sake as

31:28

they say but I guess if he didn't do it

31:30

he wouldn't have the chance to breed and

31:32

pass on his jeans so it does have

31:34

benefit to his Fitness and benefit

31:36

to him as an individual bird but to the

31:41

actual raising of the young I guess not

31:43

but then they wouldn't exist if he'd not

31:45

managed to impress a female with his

31:46

Bower and it seems like a weird set of

31:50

behaviors to have come about like I

31:51

assume the reason they do this was to

31:54

show that they're competitive to such

31:56

like this is my home and look it's

31:57

really bright which might attract

31:58

Predators but I can successfully defend

32:01

it but whether that actually happens I

32:03

don't know maybe I'm just making that up

32:05

yeah probably less about defense and

32:07

more about the fact that I must be

32:10

really fit and strong if I've spent all

32:12

this time making the biggest tallest

32:14

most elaborate fanciest Bower rather

32:18

than

32:19

yes more about showing off how fit you

32:22

are and how attractive you are and look

32:24

at all these things I've collected for

32:25

you rather than it's essentially

32:27

peacocking

32:28

rather than uh yeah it being like a

32:31

defense strategy so a pigeon wouldn't be

32:34

very good at this opinion would be a

32:36

rubbish

32:39

world but then pigeons don't seem to

32:42

have a problem with creating more

32:43

pigeons so why does the bible bird have

32:45

to go the extra effort I guess female

32:47

bowel birds are just that much more

32:48

Discerning but also I guess maybe it's

32:51

more about

32:53

the availability of resources like they

32:55

live in much more of a forested area

32:58

there's more things out there for them

33:00

to use to build their Bower maybe it's

33:02

part of that or just the fact that

33:04

they've evolved in completely different

33:05

continents different cities different

33:07

habitats different areas

33:10

and this works for the bowel burden what

33:12

works for the pigeon sort of works for

33:15

the pigeon they must lose a heck of a

33:16

lot of eggs I keep thinking about those

33:18

rubbish nests they're just going to roll

33:19

right out right yeah a little little

33:21

breeze and it would just roll away but

33:24

maybe it's less maybe pigeons breed more

33:26

often because I've come at this with

33:28

more of a like a once a year maybe two

33:31

Broods in a season type thing maybe

33:34

pigeons are breeding more all year round

33:36

I don't know the answer to that but it

33:38

could be part of it whereas if they lose

33:40

an egg or it doesn't really matter we'll

33:41

have another one in three weeks but the

33:43

bowel Birds put a lot of effort in

33:44

because this is his only clutch of the

33:46

Year all things to think about I still

33:47

find it a bit odd that you're fit you're

33:50

competitive I don't want to use the word

33:51

fit just sounds a bit odd if you're more

33:52

competitive than other birds because you

33:54

build a fancier Nest I just I guess that

33:56

doesn't resonate with me it's not what I

33:57

look for in a partner

33:59

Laura's not gonna be swayed with jewels

34:02

and gifts your love language is not uh

34:05

is it just called gifts or can't

34:06

remember but you want something else

34:08

from your from your partner so what

34:10

you're saying is if someone walks really

34:13

far to gather some really fancy looking

34:15

stuff you wouldn't care

34:18

like you know it's it's that equivalent

34:20

isn't it the bower the bowel birds are

34:23

trying to find the most like bright

34:25

colorful things and they might have to

34:27

go really far away to find these things

34:29

and they've arranged it in a wonderful

34:32

way they obviously have great strength

34:35

yeah I might be impressed and respectful

34:37

of that but it's not doing it for me

34:39

sorry I hope it's practical I want a

34:43

house is practical okay how about the

34:46

tailor bird then because the Taylor bird

34:48

is what it says on the tin they can show

34:52

they sew their nests together

34:55

with plant material so they'll make this

34:58

slight leaf-like structure and now

35:00

literally there's videos of them online

35:01

you should all look it up a watch and

35:03

they punch their little holes in the

35:06

leaves of their nests and they sew them

35:08

together to protect them from predators

35:11

to make their nests isn't that

35:13

incredible they can so that is yeah you

35:15

think about being a human thing right

35:17

you wouldn't think animals do it too

35:19

yeah I'm very intrigued as to which came

35:21

first but I couldn't find out the

35:24

origins it was very impressive and

35:26

they're tiny as well like people think

35:28

birds are not clever but Taylor birds

35:31

have learned to sew and they are pretty

35:34

small I have a really stupid question

35:36

though so you know when you you're

35:38

trying to thread a needle with so you've

35:40

got your tiny thread and you've got your

35:42

needle and you can't quite get it in the

35:43

hole because your eyesights are great

35:44

can Taylor birds see the end of their

35:46

beak to know where they're putting the

35:48

thread I don't know if they can see it

35:50

but I feel like they would know like if

35:53

you you can see if you picked up

35:55

something with your mouth not that you

35:56

would but you would know that you were

35:58

holding something in your mouth so I

36:00

feel it's the same principle like you've

36:02

got a bit of plant material in your

36:04

mouth you would know that the same way

36:05

that a bird would know that they had it

36:07

in their bee fair enough I think that's

36:09

fair

36:10

it's like we know where our hand is even

36:13

if we aren't feeling it with our other

36:16

hand yeah you closed your eyes you can

36:18

still pick up a pen but how much

36:19

dexterity do you have could you do

36:21

something like you couldn't write it

36:23

with that pen legibly probably I'm gonna

36:25

say I reckon I could with my eyes closed

36:28

I reckon I could write my name probably

36:29

not if the pen was in my mouth but and

36:31

you're not a tailor bird but does it

36:33

have hands so

36:35

but it's like instinct it's not like

36:37

they had to learn how to write so it'd

36:40

be like maybe it's more like equivalent

36:42

to you could walk with your eyes closed

36:45

yeah that's true my guess anyway but

36:47

they they are like you know they've

36:49

evolved to do this so it's not even like

36:51

it's a challenge for them they're just

36:53

capable of it which is

36:55

so cool hmm what what age do they start

36:59

you know like do they have to learn it

37:01

from their parents or is it something

37:04

that innately they'll go it's raining

37:06

it's time to sew

37:08

[Laughter]

37:09

rain being a trigger so I can build a

37:11

little shelter yes I am completely like

37:15

making this up because I do not know

37:17

anything about so the the reason they

37:19

they sew these nests is to keep the

37:22

chicks safe to keep Predators out and so

37:25

it's camouflage so they're building the

37:27

nests from leaves to make it look like

37:29

it's just part of the tree

37:32

so then the Predators won't notice

37:34

and then it'll all just sort of blend in

37:38

I guess it does potentially have the

37:40

added benefit that it could keep the

37:42

rain away keep them more warm they live

37:45

across Asia so as chances are that they

37:47

will

37:48

uh protect them and if you look at them

37:49

they do have what I suppose you would

37:51

call a roof like it does after a lot of

37:54

protection so yeah it probably will keep

37:56

going out yeah because I think I read

37:58

they're in the rainforest I think that's

38:00

why I thought

38:01

[Laughter]

38:03

kind of advice questions about why is

38:04

the rainforest called the rainforest

38:06

does it rain a lot I think we're getting

38:07

a bit off topic now it does rain a lot

38:10

but apparently a single Nest can contain

38:12

between 150 and 200 stitches wow I mean

38:17

I'm obsessed these are I think these

38:19

potentially win for the coolest nests

38:22

or certainly the most elaborate

38:24

construction I guess it might be

38:26

interesting to study this stuff in the

38:28

it's got the wow factor right but there

38:30

has to be more to it than that if

38:32

someone's just spent three years in the

38:33

rainforest observing these birds what's

38:36

the benefit not saying there isn't a

38:37

benefit I'm just curious does there have

38:39

to be a benefit can it not just be what

38:42

do you mean like a benefit to Human

38:44

Society yeah like you wouldn't get

38:46

funding to go at the rainforest to go

38:48

and watch birds for several years

38:49

without some tangible reason because

38:52

this is how well this is how I know the

38:54

grant funding works from my time in

38:55

Academia so they must have to justify

38:57

why they're doing it right I guess they

38:59

go They're going to learn more it's less

39:01

of an engineering outcome in that you

39:03

need it to prove that you can you know

39:05

then build something spectacular is

39:08

you're going to study the bird so you

39:09

can learn more about the birds so you

39:11

could be the first person to discover

39:13

this like imagine being the first person

39:14

to be like I've been to the rainforest

39:16

five years in Asia and I've come back

39:18

and these birds can sew like people

39:20

wouldn't believe you so I think yeah

39:22

that doesn't necessarily have to be a

39:25

benefit I guess also what could be a

39:27

benefit is that now that we know that

39:28

they do this and potentially it's

39:30

certain leaves potentially it's certain

39:31

material that they need it can inform

39:34

conservation practices so if you're

39:37

conserving an area say you had I don't

39:39

know a grant to conserve an area in Asia

39:42

you could Zone in on what could be

39:45

potentially really good for these Barrel

39:47

Birds because it contains the right sort

39:49

of leaves or the right environment and

39:51

you wouldn't necessarily know that had

39:52

you not spent the time in Asia reserving

39:55

these birds learning what they did so

39:56

the more we know about them the more we

39:58

can protect them so I guess it's about

40:00

understanding the effect people have had

40:03

on the planet how we can counteract that

40:06

and I guess the purpose of having these

40:08

intricate ecosystems that have built up

40:10

over hundreds of thousands of years I

40:12

guess yeah absolutely if one part of is

40:14

affected what is the knock-on effect

40:17

Antonia this is basically becoming an

40:19

engineering question if you've got your

40:20

inputs I'm not sure it is I think it's a

40:24

Chaos Theory question maybe because the

40:26

ecosystem is so vast and we don't know

40:31

what effect we can have on something

40:33

else because there are so many ways it

40:36

can evolve from that not to use the word

40:39

evolve in a wrong way but it can develop

40:42

in such a different outcome from having

40:45

the same starting point like you know we

40:48

might affect the tailor bird and then

40:51

the Taylor bird zeness might have had

40:53

some other benefit apart from it being a

40:55

nest for for them but maybe bugs or

40:59

other plants had some side effect from

41:03

that that it can

41:05

Cascade into another effect we just

41:07

don't know

41:08

unless we start studying it exactly so

41:11

then I wonder so if we're talking about

41:12

Chaos Theory it's basically mathematical

41:14

modeling right can we improve our

41:16

understanding of maths by observing

41:19

birds and trying to model what they do

41:21

mathematically the population modeling

41:24

population Dynamics is a huge Zoological

41:26

area I don't know loads about it but

41:29

slightly off topic there was a study

41:31

recently they spent a long time

41:32

observing wild dogs in Africa and then

41:36

they modeled that population that they

41:38

knew so well the long and short of it is

41:40

that they figured out if the global

41:42

temperature rises in that area by more

41:44

than three degrees there'll be total

41:46

population collapse of this of these

41:49

wild dogs because they can they can see

41:52

each year if it's hotter the pups don't

41:54

survive the adults don't hunt as much so

41:58

then they haven't got enough food for

41:59

the pups so yeah all you need all these

42:02

observations to feed these models so

42:04

that you can predict what will happen in

42:06

certain circumstances to the population

42:08

so yeah

42:09

this is why I like long-term studies

42:11

going to the rainforest and observing

42:13

the birds in the first place is so

42:14

important to answer my question it's not

42:15

just about being cool and the first one

42:18

to find a new species I mean there's

42:20

also probably an element of that but yes

42:23

the more info you have the more you can

42:25

do with it right so we can't help stuff

42:27

that we don't know anything about so

42:29

we've got to go out there and and see

42:30

what's going on there you go I gotta say

42:33

though I do like watching the birds in

42:34

my back Garden it's very distracting

42:35

everyone apparently there's proven

42:37

mental health benefits to bird watching

42:40

so if you need a weekend activity

42:43

grab your nearest friend pair of

42:45

binoculars go go watch some birds very

42:48

mindful very calming is that what the

42:50

study said you might have to explain it

42:52

you can Google it for yourselves and

42:54

draw your own conclusions but there's

42:56

definitely evidence to suggest that bird

42:57

watching is good good for your mental

42:59

health well we can do that as a future

43:00

episode how do we know what affects

43:02

mental health and psychology which is a

43:04

field I don't think any of us really

43:05

know much about so it could be a fun one

43:06

to research yeah I'd be interested in

43:09

that I did as much as an as level in

43:12

psychology and in practice exams I would

43:15

either totally get what the question was

43:17

asking and get full marks or totally

43:19

misunderstood it get no marks so it's 50

43:22

50 whether or whether or not I'm going

43:24

to be useful

43:26

well it sounds like you might know the

43:28

most so maybe you can help shape that

43:30

conversation in that case I think there

43:32

are some transferable skills from

43:34

zoology to psychology in the terms of

43:37

using case studies to learn something

43:41

about a wider population

43:43

yeah I could see how that would that

43:45

would

43:47

that would love the animals to

43:48

understand their behavior so in the same

43:50

way you

43:51

um observe people to understand what

43:53

their motivations are for different

43:54

scenarios but it's an interesting field

43:56

because there's a lot more ethics to it

43:58

like watching a bird or any other thing

44:01

in the animal kingdom not too weird

44:05

[Laughter]

44:07

I suppose it's the same thing of like

44:09

influence if you get too close to a bird

44:12

so much that you disrupt their behavior

44:14

then essentially the research is useless

44:17

because you've influenced them in a bad

44:19

way and if you tell someone they're

44:20

being watched then chances are they're

44:23

not gonna respond in the same way that

44:26

they would if they knew they weren't

44:27

being watched but then if you don't tell

44:28

them then you've probably got a whole

44:30

lot of ethical uh implications that come

44:32

with that yeah I feel like we could

44:34

carry on having this uh weird kind of

44:36

cyclical conversation about what

44:37

influence is what

44:40

but uh maybe we can save that for a

44:42

future episode

44:44

so I think what I've gotten out of this

44:46

is that there are many different nesting

44:48

habits of birds and they each fulfill a

44:50

particular purpose so it gives up helps

44:53

that bird fit into its particular

44:54

ecological niche study them and seeing

44:56

how they change their behaviors gives an

44:57

idea of how healthy the planet is and

44:59

how much of an effect we've had on the

45:02

planet as a society and where we've bred

45:04

pigeons for example we've seen our human

45:06

intervention can subvert natural

45:08

survival instincts of what should be

45:10

sensible nest in theory and leeches

45:13

something very weird but then we've also

45:15

shown how intervention in other areas

45:16

can help wild birds to survive in an

45:18

environment that we've had so much

45:19

influence over so our example of putting

45:22

up nest boxes in your garden is one way

45:24

that you can help counter habitat loss

45:25

on that note

45:28

we've enjoyed this slightly weird

45:30

rambling episode and we hope you have as

45:32

well if you have any more suggestions to

45:34

add to the impressive list of the

45:36

engineering developer trust have given

45:37

us for future episodes please let us

45:39

know and we'll see you next time

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[Music]