The ocean refuses empathetic ethics based on sameness with us humans. What does the urge to save nature — in certain ways — reveal about us and our desire? In the fifth episode of Ocean Wants, our host, speculative writer Ingo Niermann talks to Eva Hayward, historian of science and faculty member of the Department of Gender and Women Studies at the University of Arizona.

Ocean Wants is a series of ten podcasts that playfully explores how nonhumans could like our planet to be. Conceived and hosted by Ingo Niermann, Ocean Wants was commissioned to celebrate TBA21–Academy’s tenth Anniversary.

Commissioned and produced by TBA21–AcademyConceived, hosted, and edited by Ingo NiermannMusic composed and arranged by Ville HaimalaIntro read by Joan JonasCredits read by Staci Bu SheaSound edited by Robin MichelProduced by Ingo Niermann and María Montero Sierra