0:15

Pushkin. This

0:34

is Talk Easy. I'm stud Fragoso.

0:37

Welcome to the show

0:51

today. I'm joined by writer, director,

0:54

and actor Pamela Adlin.

0:56

For the past four decades, Adlin has

0:58

been a staple on American television.

1:01

As a child actor, she appeared on programs

1:03

like The Facts of Life, Night Court, and

1:05

The Red Fox Show. Then, in

1:07

the Ninetiesline emerged as

1:09

a voiceover artist, where she became widely

1:12

known for her iconic portrayal of Bobby

1:14

Hill, a wide eyed preteen, on

1:17

the animated series King of the Hill.

1:19

In the show's thirteen season run, she

1:22

voiced over two hundred and fifty episodes,

1:24

winning a Primetime Emmy in two thousand

1:26

and two. By then, Adlin had come

1:29

to terms with her career as a sought

1:31

after voiceover actor, bouncing from

1:33

one animated show to the next. But

1:35

then something unusual happened.

1:38

A second act. As a forty year old

1:40

mother to three, Adlin returned

1:42

to the screen. She was a series regular

1:45

on Californication alongside David

1:47

d'covney, and a recurring feature in

1:49

Louis, where she also served as a producer.

1:52

She then parlayed that success into

1:54

her own semi autobiographical

1:56

FBEX series Better Things. The

1:58

show, which Adlin starred and often

2:01

directed, was beloved for its messy,

2:03

unvarnished portrait of single motherhood,

2:05

which also happens to be the subject

2:07

of her latest project, Babes,

2:10

starring a lot of Glazer and Michelle Buteaux

2:12

has best friends and potentially soon

2:15

to be mothers. Here's a clip from

2:17

the trailer, Wait,

2:20

hold up, think you, thank you, thank

2:23

you?

2:23

Today I saw a baby being born.

2:25

Oh I'm so proud.

2:26

You don't judge me.

2:28

Amidak

2:36

dawn a crisis.

2:39

I had sex.

2:40

I was on my period, So you can't get pregnant

2:42

on your period.

2:43

Girl, girl stop, girl, used

2:45

up.

2:46

We went to the same school, We learned the same ship.

2:52

La am I pregnant? Yeah?

2:56

Single mom, she may

2:58

not keep the baby choice

3:01

right right?

3:02

Single, You

3:05

don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

3:08

I have your back, no matter.

3:09

What you think. I can do this right yes,

3:14

yeh yeah

3:19

yeah. That

3:22

was from the new film Babes, opening

3:24

in theaters across the country Friday,

3:26

May seventeenth. It's Adlin's

3:28

future film debut, although it

3:30

hardly feels like a first time filmmaker, given

3:33

her years directing Better Things. The

3:35

film is everything we've come to expect

3:37

from Adlon's work, warm,

3:40

funny, deeply honest, especially

3:42

in its unflinching portrayal of child

3:45

bearing. And so today we start

3:47

with Babes, a reproductive comedy

3:49

for twenty twenty four America. We

3:51

also talk about growing up in a creative family,

3:54

the oddness of being a child actor,

3:57

the intensely personal nature of her work

3:59

over the past decade, her newfound

4:01

mission to mentor women in the industry

4:03

through a production company, Slam Book

4:06

Ink, and finally, what she

4:08

still loves about motherhood. This

4:11

is our Mother's Day Special with Pamela

4:14

Adline. Enjoy Pamela

4:29

Adline. Hi, nice to meet you.

4:31

Nice to meet you too.

4:32

This is the first time we've met. Yeah, how do

4:34

you feel about doing interviews?

4:39

I really I think that I need.

4:41

I tend to lean into them a little

4:43

too much and use

4:45

them therapeutically. But now

4:48

I'm just feeling like there's so

4:50

many people in the world who are so much

4:52

smarter than me and have more interesting

4:54

things to say. You know, what are you gonna

4:56

do with me?

4:57

We're gonna have you on the show, and

5:00

we're gonna have fun and by the way, I

5:02

feel like you're short changing yourself a little bit here.

5:05

That used to be my name, small change his

5:07

small change. Hey kids,

5:09

strange, we were waiting for you with the hell will you? And don't

5:11

be giving me no shit because I'm in no mood. I

5:14

don't like your attitude. You're digging what you're

5:16

saying. Dude. I was ready to be cool, but

5:18

you really blew it. Now you got me all on glude. It's

5:21

Paul Gordon.

5:22

That was great.

5:22

That was a musical I did when I was fifteen

5:25

called Backstreet Greetings from Venice

5:27

Beach. It's all stuck

5:29

up here.

5:30

You know. I actually have a lot of what's

5:32

stuck up there on this page.

5:35

You do, I have a lot of it. I have a

5:37

lot of it.

5:37

Well, see, we're.

5:38

Gonna work through it.

5:40

We're gonna work through it surgically.

5:43

With love and care. Can we start with your

5:45

feature film directorial debut. It's

5:47

a movie called Babes. It is fittingly

5:50

coming out on the heels of Mother's

5:52

Day Weekend. You were

5:54

offered this film while wrapping

5:57

the last season of Better Things.

5:59

Yeah.

6:00

After six years of writing,

6:03

starring, producing, show running

6:05

your program on FX why

6:08

did you luck to make a film and the dead

6:10

of summer in New York City instead

6:13

of say, take a nap.

6:17

You know, when we first started

6:19

the movie, we were going to be shooting it in

6:21

the fall in New York City, like everybody's

6:23

fantasy, and it just turned

6:26

out that we got Michelle Buteau

6:28

and she was we had to kind of like

6:31

rush her through because she had to

6:33

come back to la to start shooting her

6:35

show. So that's what

6:37

happened. You know, you accommodate,

6:40

and what we got

6:43

was this incredible superstar

6:46

in the making, like about to

6:49

explode and ignite, and

6:51

the chemistry between her and Alana

6:54

was perfect, and she

6:57

just brought so much to the to the film. It

6:59

was like extraordinary.

7:01

So the two of them, Michelle and Alana

7:03

kind of came of age in New York doing stand

7:05

up comedy together. In the movie,

7:07

they played two childhood

7:10

best friends, Eden and Don,

7:13

who've also grown up in New York. Don

7:15

is now married and with a kid, and

7:18

Eden is still like single

7:21

and a little more carefree, but then decides,

7:23

after getting pregnant from a one night stand,

7:26

to keep the child and become a mother.

7:29

The film feels more like an

7:31

unmarried woman or girlfriends than

7:34

a standard episode of Better Things.

7:37

What was your entry point into this?

7:39

I can't fucking believe you're saying those.

7:41

So you and I are like of the same

7:43

tribe, I think, So okay,

7:46

going from Better Things to making

7:48

Babes was only a shift

7:50

for me because you

7:52

know, a lot of people were asking was

7:54

it different, you know, directing Better

7:57

Things to directing Babes as

7:59

a feature, and there was no difference.

8:01

It was just, you know, I do

8:03

what I do over there, I do what I do over here.

8:06

The biggest difference is that there were

8:09

so many people whose opinions

8:12

count and matter in

8:15

this indie feature world,

8:17

you know, the money people, the

8:19

producers, everybody who's involved

8:22

on Better Things. I was pretty

8:24

much, you know, insulated

8:27

they did because

8:29

I had proven myself

8:32

in that realm and so like,

8:35

I realized something

8:38

when I came back from shooting

8:40

the movie and my youngest

8:43

daughter, Rocket, who was

8:45

nineteen at the time, and she looked at me

8:47

and she said, mom, you know, and I was gone for three

8:49

months, and she's said, what

8:53

did you get out of that? What was

8:55

that like for you? And I was like a who

8:57

are you? Magic child?

9:00

Asking me this perfect philosophical

9:04

existential question.

9:06

Honestly, I think she could host the show.

9:08

I swear to god.

9:10

The swapper in you would love her a

9:12

Mother's Day special totally.

9:15

And she said, what did you get out of it?

9:17

What was your takeaway? What did you get from it? And

9:20

I said that I really know what I'm doing

9:22

and.

9:23

What about the experience told

9:25

you that.

9:26

The way I do things, the

9:28

way I like to execute

9:30

a story, the way I see

9:33

things, Yeah, in my head, it's

9:36

for me. And it made me excited

9:39

about new projects

9:41

that I am pursuing

9:43

now. It's really hard

9:45

to get a movie made and

9:48

you know, Josh n'llana wrote this movie and

9:51

they were able to get it financed and get

9:53

it off the ground. And then they

9:56

came for me because they

9:58

like what I do and like that's my

10:01

thing, and my

10:03

thing is probably your thing. If I like unzipped

10:07

your head, like she says in Baby Ray Dear,

10:09

and went in there rummaged

10:12

around.

10:12

Please don't do that.

10:13

I would I

10:15

would find I just know what's in

10:17

there. I would find like all the references

10:19

and.

10:20

How much trauma can you see?

10:21

Yeah, I can feel it. I

10:24

feel it.

10:24

Anything stick out to you.

10:26

I don't know, there's some family stuff

10:28

in there. Yeah, yeah,

10:31

that's right here.

10:33

If I were doing this episode on Mother's Day. Yeah,

10:35

it's the perfect Mother's Day programming

10:38

because you've made this show better things

10:41

that I think is maybe the most compelling

10:43

piece of art about motherhood that I've

10:45

ever seen on television. And this new film again

10:47

speaks to We'll

10:50

talk about it in a second, but I want to stick with the movie.

10:52

This is like quite a time to

10:55

be releasing a comedy

10:57

about reproductive rights. Looking

11:00

up the stats this morning, Like, as of recording,

11:02

there are twenty one states

11:05

that either ban or restrict the procedure

11:08

earlier pregnancy than the

11:10

standard set by Roe v. Wade, which was overturned

11:13

in twenty twenty two. Did the

11:15

horror of this moment, like the insanity

11:17

of it? Did it make you

11:19

want to tell a story where we could somehow

11:22

possibly laugh about how ridiculous

11:24

this is?

11:25

Well, we were in New

11:28

York City. I was in prep when

11:30

it.

11:31

Was repealed, Yeah, June of

11:33

twenty twenty two.

11:34

And I was like, are you fucking

11:36

kidding me? As the mother

11:38

of three girls and

11:41

the daughter of a woman who had

11:44

you know, had to have a back alley abortion

11:46

in the fifties who made

11:49

the choice to have her kids

11:51

when she wanted to have her kids, like

11:54

she had that before she had my brother

11:56

and then before she had me, So

11:59

that was the time that was right for her. And

12:01

I remember the year before

12:05

I was shooting season five of Better Things

12:07

and we're shooting outside of Planned parents hood

12:10

a scene with Diedrich Bader and

12:12

Mikey Madison and somebody

12:15

from Jessica Whites from the ACLU

12:17

called me and said, can you get on an emergency

12:20

zoom about f whatever?

12:23

You know f women. I

12:25

remember I was driving in my car and

12:27

all these women would come their squares

12:30

would come up and they would be like, you

12:32

know, my name's Laura, and I'm a

12:34

nurse. And I had my abortion

12:36

here because I was still going

12:39

through school and I wouldn't

12:41

have been able to finish. And now I have

12:43

three kids and I am so grateful

12:46

for the care that I got. And then other people

12:49

who were telling their stories and it's like, you

12:51

can't even imagine

12:53

the madness. So for me, I'm

12:56

sitting there going I'm gonna be

12:59

directing this film about

13:01

these two best friends, one who's having

13:03

her second baby and one who gets pregnant

13:06

and makes a choice. And

13:08

my first thought is, I don't want

13:10

this to be weaponized in any way. I

13:13

want it to be about the

13:16

choice, and it really is,

13:18

and I think that message comes through.

13:20

I hope it does.

13:21

What did you mean by you didn't want it to be weaponized?

13:24

Well, this is the thing when you're making

13:26

something, if you're doing a show, or making a

13:28

movie, or writing a book, or painting a

13:30

painting, making a record album,

13:33

everything can be weaponized because

13:36

if you put it in your point of

13:38

view, then people will

13:40

say, well, you didn't say this, you didn't mention

13:42

that. And I

13:45

think that the mistake that

13:47

people make and are

13:49

making is being

13:52

guided by fear of

13:54

what people are going to say about

13:56

the thing that you make or do, and

13:58

you're not. My only fear is

14:00

that it's not going to be of

14:03

a standard that you and I would

14:05

want to watch and engage in.

14:07

Talking about quality, yeah, yeah.

14:09

You want it to be good. So if

14:12

you live in fear and you say

14:14

you pull back on a story or

14:17

pull back on something in a

14:19

scene with a character, then

14:22

it's going to be half asked and

14:24

it's going to be bad. Right, So

14:27

you know, make a choice, make

14:29

a strong choice.

14:30

So you said that in making this movie,

14:32

there were more voices in the

14:34

room than there were on Better Things. Right,

14:37

how do you listen to your voice when

14:39

there's a bunch of other people chiming

14:41

in? It's hard.

14:44

It's hard. You

14:46

call upon your archangel Michael

14:48

to form a pink bubble of protection around

14:51

yourself?

14:52

Is there a certain way in which you do that? Do

14:54

you change your voice? Do you call upon something?

14:56

I learned how to kind

14:58

of separate and keep my

15:02

thoughts and keep my wits

15:04

about me and for the listener.

15:07

You did do wits in quotes.

15:09

Oh shit, I

15:11

can't believe you just called me out on

15:13

air quoting. But I did.

15:15

It's an audio media, I did.

15:17

I'm sorry. I learned how to

15:19

do that when I was making Better Things.

15:22

It's interesting because I put there's

15:24

a quote in my show

15:27

in season four where I do

15:29

this like monologue about menopause

15:32

at the end of it. And when I'm on Jessica

15:34

Barden's show, I say women

15:37

should be brothers to each other. And

15:39

I say it again, women should be brothers to each

15:41

other. And I

15:43

remember, you know, reading comments

15:45

on social media, and I remember people talking

15:48

to me in interview and saying,

15:51

why would you say that? Why would you say

15:53

women should be brothers to each other. It's

15:56

the opposite, women should be sisters

15:58

to each other. And I'm like, no, you're

16:00

not paying attention because

16:03

brotherly love is a

16:05

warm hug. Sisterly

16:08

love is something new

16:10

that people are coming to, which

16:13

you.

16:13

Did have brotherly

16:15

love. You were the second child,

16:18

right, yeah, in your family. You

16:21

grew up seventies between

16:23

New York and California,

16:25

bouncing around. Your father

16:28

was a screenwriter and producer on shows

16:30

like The Jeffersons and mash Your

16:33

mom, who's British, worked as

16:35

a travel agent or reporter, a whole bunch

16:37

of other odd jobs. In your show

16:39

Better Things, you talk about the

16:42

pancake theory of child

16:44

bearing. Can you explain it for

16:46

listeners? And do you believe it? As

16:49

the second kid?

16:50

Basically, the first child

16:53

is the burnt pancake.

16:54

Thank you for that.

16:55

You're the first Yeah,

16:58

basically you fuck them up because

17:00

you don't know what you're doing. The second

17:02

kid you get the nice brown great,

17:06

but it's a little light, and then the third

17:08

kid golden brown

17:10

perfect. You know, my daughters

17:12

always say when they were kids. They were

17:15

like, first is the worst, second

17:17

is the best, Third is the one

17:19

with the treasure chest.

17:22

I love that. Can I ask you as like a young

17:24

kid, whose idea

17:27

of work or like a career between

17:29

your parents made the most sense

17:32

to you.

17:33

Well, that's a great question. It

17:35

was always instilled in me and my brother

17:38

that you work. There's just no question.

17:41

My mother's mother did many

17:43

things, and she supported the family, and

17:47

so did my mom because my dad

17:49

was he was a writer, and he was

17:51

getting he was working, but

17:54

he was struggling. He was always

17:56

struggling. My mother was the one

17:58

who was always working. And

18:00

then I started working as

18:02

a teenager and I

18:05

made real money working in television,

18:07

and then I started supporting my family,

18:10

which was like a crazy thing.

18:12

So originally I wanted to be a lawyer,

18:14

and then I really wanted to be an actor. But

18:17

I think I really always wanted to be a

18:19

producer and a writer and a director.

18:21

Behind the scenes.

18:23

You start working really early as an actor.

18:26

There's Grease too, The Facts of

18:28

Life, The Red Fox Show.

18:30

I'm looking for huge, huge,

18:34

I'm ruggish runs. I'm huge.

18:37

I don't want none.

18:38

I don't want to Scott cookies, and I don't want to know.

18:40

If you can see your school play Saturdays,

18:42

tell you about me. Oh,

18:45

the notorious criminal has got people locking their

18:47

doors and pulling out their shades. I'm

18:50

not a bad I'm not a good kid,

18:52

but I'm not public.

18:53

Any number one.

18:54

Why you in so much trouble?

18:56

Most I was just spray painting

18:58

one of the subway tunnels. They called it

19:00

defacing public property.

19:02

I call it arts.

19:03

I dude, I'm a street artist.

19:05

That are good for

19:07

that.

19:08

Well, I still were a couple other things.

19:10

I figured it.

19:14

I might have broke into a few payforms,

19:16

and I maybe sort of hot

19:18

wired this car and I drove around a

19:20

little.

19:21

I may go all the way to Miami.

19:25

You've called all those roles in the past vaguely

19:28

gender dysphoric. Yeah, can

19:30

you walk us through the like reverse

19:32

TUTSI, like process in which

19:35

you came of age as a child actor.

19:37

It's so funny because you

19:39

don't realize it. And then one

19:42

day a few years ago, I was like, oh, I

19:44

totally did like Reverse

19:46

TUTSI.

19:47

Right, because that movie came out in nineteen eighty two, so

19:50

kind of around this time.

19:51

Yeah, when I think about it, I track

19:53

it. I was doing like all these

19:56

movies and shows like Night

19:58

Court, like Gender Reveal,

20:01

the Ace Bandage, the Ace Bandage on

20:03

the Red Fox show, The Bronx

20:05

Zoo, you know, selling drugs

20:07

and being called into the principal's office

20:10

Ed Asner. I just was kind

20:12

of like, you know this, we

20:14

use the word androgynists in the day.

20:17

Tomboy was what I always was.

20:20

And what did your voice sound like? Then?

20:22

Really high?

20:25

My voice was so high. My

20:28

voice became more mannish now

20:30

than it was. I could have used it.

20:32

Then when did it lower?

20:33

I guess when my balls drop.

20:36

Yeah, but it's funny because

20:38

I kind of forgot about

20:40

like that whole part of my

20:43

career. And then you know,

20:45

I just was being like a little dude,

20:48

you know, and I felt really comfortable

20:50

there.

20:51

You were fine with that.

20:52

I loved it. I didn't like being a

20:54

girl.

20:55

Why was that?

20:56

I don't know. I just felt more comfortable

20:59

in Trouser's you

21:02

know. I felt like my strength was

21:04

taken away, like David and Goliath,

21:06

if I was like made to feel

21:08

like a girl, like I just always really

21:10

wanted to be with the guys,

21:13

and I saw my brother being

21:16

like a guy and like I

21:18

wanted that. Yeah, so I did like all

21:20

that on camera stuff, and then I

21:23

wasn't getting jobs.

21:24

Right, I'm trying to like trying

21:26

to place it for people. You're seventeen years old.

21:29

You're trying to picture me at seventeen.

21:30

Sam, You're trying to get

21:33

this whole show canceled that I think, No,

21:35

I'm trying to imagine the situation you

21:37

were in at seventeen. I'm sure you were lovely at

21:39

seventeen.

21:40

I had short hair, I was going to PCs

21:43

in Manhattan.

21:44

Okay, And you've just made a

21:46

quarter of a million dollars on

21:49

the Facts of.

21:49

Life when I was sixteen, Right,

21:52

you.

21:52

Get a condo, a car,

21:55

you help out your parents at

21:58

that age. I mean being seventeen

22:00

is hard enough at that age,

22:03

Like, how did you make sense of helping

22:05

your parents out financially? Did that feel

22:07

good? Was that something you liked doing or

22:10

did it feel like some kind of burden?

22:13

The Facts of Life was financially

22:17

great for me, and it

22:19

wasn't great for me

22:22

mentally. I felt

22:24

like besides, you

22:27

know Eve Branstein who was the casting director,

22:30

and Kim Fields and Mindy Kohane

22:32

that I was an unwanted guest.

22:36

It felt uncomfortable and I felt sad,

22:38

and I didn't understand what the money

22:40

was and the impact

22:43

on kind of feeling unwelcome

22:47

was really depressing.

22:49

Which is a feeling I think a lot of teenagers

22:52

have at that time. Yeah, just not on

22:55

the facts of life scale.

22:58

Yeah, it was hard for me

23:00

because you know, I was sixteen years old

23:02

and I worshiped that show and

23:05

everybody on it. I think that

23:07

they were trying to breathe new life into the show,

23:10

and a lot of people were

23:12

like the bodies. There

23:15

was just a trail of dead bodies, and

23:17

I have good company, Like it was me

23:20

and Molly Ringwald and Felice

23:22

Shackter and George Clooney McKenzie

23:24

Astin.

23:25

So maybe you want to be with those bodies.

23:27

Yeah, they destroyed all of us. They were like,

23:29

we don't want any new people. But

23:31

it did give me financial

23:35

fiduciarily things,

23:38

and it helped my family until

23:41

they eventually went bankrupts.

23:43

Well, that's what I wanted to talk about, because after your

23:45

parents go bankrupt, it's

23:47

my understanding that you and your father actually

23:50

started writing together as a way

23:52

to repair your relationship. Is

23:54

that how it happened.

23:55

You know, I guess that I was always writing.

23:58

I was always creating,

24:00

and I was writing poetry,

24:03

I was writing songs. I was doing all that kind

24:05

of stuff. And then I started writing

24:08

to kind of, you know, navigate around my

24:10

relationship with my dad and to open

24:12

up communication with him. And then

24:15

we started kind of doing business

24:17

together, and I bought the option on a book that he

24:19

and his partner wanted to get and it

24:22

was like such a great

24:25

palette cleanser for my

24:28

childhood and living under his roof,

24:30

which was not so fantastic.

24:33

What were those writing sessions like?

24:35

So I did this one

24:38

thing where like I wrote

24:40

this script which was about

24:42

like a daughter with her father

24:44

and her father's writing partner. And

24:47

in the scenes it

24:49

was me making fun of my dad, like

24:52

trying to point out, like you know, and

24:54

then he freaked out whatever, and

24:56

he was looking at it

24:58

and giving me dead eye. But

25:01

then at the end he was dying laughing because

25:04

he knew that I got him. I do want

25:07

to say something about my dad that I

25:10

haven't really talked about, which is that

25:12

he or maybe you know it, because you

25:14

know, a lot of shit toward the end

25:16

of his life because he wasn't he

25:19

couldn't get hired as a writer, and

25:21

so he started doing these storytelling

25:23

workshops and going to people's

25:26

homes and you know, and

25:28

basically kind of teasing

25:31

the writer out of people who

25:34

didn't know how to tell their story.

25:36

Sounds like someone I know.

25:38

That's so cool. I love that.

25:40

That makes me want to cry.

25:44

He and he was very passionate about

25:46

it, and I remember like that

25:48

he was so proud to

25:50

be coaching people and

25:54

you know, reinventing yourself. That's something

25:56

my dad said for the first time ever.

25:58

I think he invented it because I

26:01

never heard it before my dad.

26:03

In the nineteen nineties. I don't think people were saying it that

26:05

much.

26:05

I don't think so. So

26:08

props to my old dust

26:10

Mop my podcast.

26:13

Ask you, why does that get you emotional

26:15

thinking about.

26:16

That, because you just pointed

26:18

out the sinew between

26:20

me and my dad, the lineage. When

26:23

I think about it and how I grew

26:25

up with my dad, you know, creating

26:27

games in my living room

26:30

and his friends. Yeah, and I would

26:32

go fall asleep to clickers and

26:34

then like creating all these games and

26:36

game shows. And you know, when I finally

26:39

got to be on a game show. Hollywood

26:41

Game Night was my first game show. I

26:44

was out of my mind. It

26:46

was like the greatest moment of my life. I'm

26:48

like, this is my legacy,

26:51

you know, and so realizing

26:54

that my dad was doing that and I'm

26:57

That's a big part of what I

26:59

do when I'm creating is coaxing

27:02

people's stories out. And when I'm working

27:04

with actors who are background

27:06

actors. You know, some people call

27:09

them extras, we call them background. In

27:12

England, they call them

27:14

SA's supporting

27:16

actors. Yeah, it's

27:19

really cool, it's really respectful.

27:21

They also would call all the roles

27:23

you had as a kid trouser rules.

27:26

That's right. They were full on trouser. So

27:28

going back to doing all the boy on camera stuff

27:31

and then starting to do

27:34

when I couldn't pay my rent and things

27:36

were bad, voiceover

27:39

like saved me. And it was

27:41

always these boys. So like

27:43

my first big campaign, I was young Kevin

27:46

for seven to eleven.

27:47

What sound like, Hey Dad, I've got

27:49

a big thirst for a big gold because I'm always

27:52

on the go.

27:52

Can I borrow the car?

27:57

Oh

28:00

scared the shit out of me. Oh

28:04

my god. We never had anyone that young on the show.

28:07

So I was doing like all the boys,

28:10

and then.

28:10

How do you do that?

28:12

Was that?

28:13

No, how do you do that? Like physically?

28:15

Like how do you go there? Can

28:19

you demonstrate? Like how the hell do you do that?

28:21

I don't even know? Me shall

28:23

be, I don't,

28:25

I don't know.

28:26

It's just like do you have such a range?

28:29

I started doing like I when I

28:31

kind of track it, I track it back to

28:33

like the cartoons,

28:35

like the Acme cartoons, and you

28:38

know, Snagglepuss. I remember

28:40

Snagglepuss was the first voice that

28:42

I ever like. I was like, oh my god,

28:45

that's incredible. Exit

28:48

stage lived. We've been ousted,

28:50

dismissed by you even

28:53

like I loved that shit, like I would try

28:56

to imitate. I wish i'd practiced

28:58

so you guys would be more impressed with me.

29:00

But whatever, everyone's very impressed.

29:03

But I started going in and

29:05

doing like all these boy things, and

29:07

then I became known for having

29:10

like a natural boy voice.

29:12

My voice just settled into

29:15

that place, and so I

29:17

would joke that I was the cleaner

29:20

like Harvey Keitel in pulp

29:22

fiction, you know, because

29:24

they would you know, hire young

29:26

boys to do parts and

29:29

they would go through three rounds, and

29:31

they would go through puberty.

29:32

Bye, They'd get older.

29:34

They'd get older, and I would

29:36

come in and then I'd finish the

29:38

show. They'd be like, Okay, we're keeping her.

29:40

They'd get older and you'd stay the same.

29:42

The balls never will drop with this

29:44

lady.

29:49

After the break. More from Pamela

29:51

Adlaw. So

30:14

we talked about you as an actor. We've talked about

30:16

how you started writing. I want

30:18

to talk about the first time you directed

30:22

before we get into better things. It's

30:24

nineteen eighty six, you're twenty years old.

30:27

Madonna has just married Sean Penn,

30:29

and she's about to release her new record,

30:32

True Blue. Of course to

30:34

do that, you know, when people put out an album,

30:37

they like to put out music videos

30:40

for that album.

30:40

Yeah, this was the height of MTV, right,

30:43

And.

30:43

So she puts a call out on MTV into

30:46

the Wild and asks

30:48

for submissions. Can

30:50

we take a look at that promotional video

30:53

that she released in nineteen eighty six?

30:55

Oh my god, Wow,

30:58

this is a professional setup.

31:00

So she wants you to make the video for

31:02

her new song true Blue.

31:04

Go ahead, come

31:06

on, made my videos.

31:09

Make my video contest. Anyone

31:11

can enter.

31:12

All you need is a camera and a vision.

31:14

I'm thinking true Blue,

31:17

loopacuffic sailors.

31:19

Yes, beautiful, all beautiful.

31:22

Yeah, show me your legs more legs, Oh yeah,

31:24

oh good, buss a good yeah.

31:27

Way squeaty more ways

31:30

yeah a beautiful Yeah.

31:33

I love it.

31:34

I love it, dang ton.

31:36

If you make the winning True Blue video,

31:38

Madonna will personally hand you a director's

31:41

feed of twenty five thousand dollars

31:43

in cash, and MDV will world

31:45

premiere your video from coast to coast

31:48

and plus check out these works a Levi's

31:50

five to oh one blues wardrobe, cassio

31:52

musical equipment, and enough TwixT candy

31:54

bars to pay off the entire guys.

31:57

So grab any movie or video camera,

31:59

go high budget, low budget or no

32:01

budget, shoot your vision and sink it

32:03

to Madonna's True Blue and send

32:05

it to Madonna's Make My Video

32:08

Contest. You are of MTV seventeen

32:10

seventy five Broadway, New York, New York,

32:13

one zero zero one nine For everyone

32:15

who's ever watched a video and said

32:18

I can do better.

32:19

I can do better, I can do better.

32:21

Come I dare you? Come

32:24

on? That's

32:28

so funny? Oh

32:31

my god, that's crazy.

32:33

What do you make of that.

32:36

I just can't believe, like all the stuff

32:38

that used to be on TV is

32:40

such bad quality kills

32:43

me. It kills me.

32:46

Oh my god. I don't know how big of

32:48

a Madonna fa anywhere. But like you, as a

32:50

twenty year old directing, did

32:53

the job make sense to you?

32:55

Like?

32:55

Did you enjoy it? Did it seem like,

32:57

Okay, I should this seems like something I should

32:59

do.

33:00

I loved it because it

33:02

was a part of you

33:05

know, being like on the fly and

33:07

making fixes. And the

33:10

way I work is very organically

33:12

with the people and the materials

33:15

around me. So it definitely

33:17

was a good bouncing board

33:20

for where I am now.

33:22

I was just trying to imagine, like you as

33:24

a kid, imagining

33:27

the idea.

33:28

Yeah, I was nineteen nineteen.

33:30

Yeah, one day maybe wanting

33:32

to direct.

33:33

Maybe I could never let myself

33:35

think that big You couldn't.

33:38

Why was that?

33:39

This is like when I talk to people now

33:42

and you know, mentoring

33:45

or just you know, throwing random

33:47

ted talks around as I

33:49

am want to do all the fucking time.

33:52

It's yeah,

33:55

what does it sound like?

33:57

I just gave one to the guy who drove me over here.

34:00

I'm like, what's your intention with law school.

34:02

He said, oh, I never thought of that, because

34:05

we're driving over here, George, and

34:07

he said he's going to law schoo in the fall. And

34:09

I said, what law are you going to study?

34:12

And he said, you know, I'm just going to figure it

34:14

out when i'm there. And I said,

34:16

how about when you are

34:19

going there, because like, I

34:21

have an attorney, my entertainment

34:23

lawyer, and he's great, and

34:26

I'm always like trying to find like a loophole

34:28

in my divorce agreement, which is awful.

34:30

And he said, oh, well, I loved

34:33

family law when I was in law school. But

34:35

I said to George, I was like, you

34:37

know, find the most the way you can

34:39

make yourself the most viable

34:42

because the world is getting

34:44

like we're becoming obsolete

34:46

as we all know.

34:48

Listener, she looked right into my eyes as she

34:50

said.

34:50

That, but we have to find a way

34:52

to make ourselves viable.

34:54

And it's like, how can you get

34:56

across more than

34:59

one different law? Like

35:01

if you're in the business, like what would

35:03

you do? So what I say to people

35:06

is like I wish I wasn't so myopic

35:09

when I was coming up because I just

35:11

thought, oh, I'm an actor, That's that's

35:13

all I could be, right, I wouldn't

35:16

try to improve myself in other areas.

35:18

And I was just kind of waiting

35:20

for the phone to ring, but really

35:23

being myopic. So I

35:26

wish I had not waited.

35:29

And I looked at other people who

35:31

stopped, and like Jodie Foster,

35:34

who was like one of my heroes, and

35:36

she stopped and she went to fucking Yale. I

35:38

was like, you could do that. Like

35:41

this is like such a revelation to

35:43

me. So it hit

35:46

me a few years ago all

35:48

of those little things that I was doing while

35:51

I was growing up, coming up,

35:54

waiting for acting jobs.

35:55

Playing a series of characters you've called the kick

35:58

around side characters, the little Raccoons,

36:00

the guest stars.

36:01

There you go. But all of the other

36:03

things like making the MTV

36:06

video for Madonna and

36:09

doing the documentary and all of

36:11

the songs.

36:12

And all of having three kids.

36:15

But this was even before that, This was

36:17

my teens through my twenties. Oh yes, I

36:20

had a camera attached me the whole time. And

36:23

so then when I

36:25

looked back, I was like, oh, I was always

36:28

doing it. I just didn't dare

36:30

think bigger in a professional

36:32

sense.

36:33

You had the pieces of the puzzle. You just didn't know

36:35

what the puzzle look like.

36:36

Yeah, I had the bricks. I

36:39

had all the bricks, and I didn't think

36:41

they were valuable. I just thought it

36:43

was like things that I would do,

36:45

like hobbies that I would do, and just

36:47

I think that I want to be

36:50

of use.

36:51

I was thinking you mentioned loopholes,

36:54

and the first thing I thought of was, she should talk

36:56

to my mom, who's a divorce attorney.

36:58

Wait, I

37:02

would she talk to me? She would talk to Yeah,

37:06

what's your mom's name.

37:07

Teresa Terry? So

37:09

you have three kids by the time you're like thirty

37:11

seven years old.

37:12

Oh, yeah, thirty five and.

37:14

All this work that we've been talking about,

37:16

all of this folding into and leading

37:19

up to better things. In

37:21

twenty thirteen, you went on a podcast. I

37:23

think it was your first podcast. It was with Mark

37:25

Marin, And there's

37:27

two quotes here that I've just been like sitting

37:30

with all week and I have to like ask

37:32

them what year was that? Twenty thirteen. Yeah.

37:35

He spent a lot of time asking you about about

37:38

motherhood and your ideas about being

37:40

a mom and all that, which of course would

37:42

turn into better things. And

37:44

he said, do you think having kids

37:46

is a good idea, and you said, I

37:48

don't recommend it. He said,

37:51

it's so adorable at the beginning. And

37:54

now I'm a chair at the end of my teenager's

37:56

bed that she throws her clothes on at the end

37:58

of the night. And now I'm thinking, you don't

38:00

even need to connect to my mom, because

38:03

you too are the same person, because I remember

38:06

her saying that.

38:07

Oh my god, word for word, that's

38:09

good.

38:10

When you hear that quote. Now, yeah, like

38:12

a decade removed, what do

38:14

you think it's absolutely true?

38:17

I mean it's not.

38:18

It's just not easy. You know, moms

38:21

are allowed to say things now,

38:24

you know, that's a new thing, and people

38:26

are talking about like lady

38:28

things in a more open way,

38:31

like you.

38:31

Know this new movie, I mean, especially in this new movie.

38:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's definitely.

38:36

That's so funny. Was that really twenty

38:38

thirteen?

38:39

Yeah? Yes's crazy. So can

38:42

I just on record, yeah, you do recommend

38:44

kids or you don't.

38:45

I don't think it's a necessity at

38:48

all. It just kind of happened

38:50

to me. It wasn't something that

38:52

was something I was reaching for.

38:55

And I'm a very loyal,

38:58

dutiful person and I,

39:00

you know, come from an English mom and

39:03

my parents are from a more

39:05

If I say conservative, my mother wants

39:08

to kill me. It's just like conventional

39:11

conventional. So one of my

39:13

best friends, Jonathan, and I

39:16

were like neck and neck. We're a month apart.

39:18

He's June ninth, I'm July ninth, and like,

39:20

you know, you go to school, you go

39:23

to college, you meet somebody,

39:25

you get married, whatever, and he was

39:27

doing like all of those things and I was

39:29

doing it, and I'm like, what are we doing? And

39:32

you're gay, so you've already jumped

39:34

the shark of this whole conventional

39:37

way we were brought up. I

39:39

don't know. I just kind

39:42

of fell into being a mom.

39:44

It was always naturally like taking care of people,

39:47

but it wasn't something that I sought out.

39:50

And right before I walked in here,

39:52

one of my daughters called me and

39:55

it was like a big deal. That

39:57

five minutes that we spent on the phone

40:00

was everything. And I could cry right now

40:02

talking to you about when

40:05

your kid calls you and says what

40:07

do I do? Then you're like, oh,

40:10

this is what I was put here for.

40:12

I love that because hearing that to me is

40:14

like that's clearly the foundation

40:17

of better things.

40:18

Yeah, I thought you were going to say, hearing

40:21

that is the foundation for everything

40:24

that I'm damaged from from my childhood

40:28

mom.

40:29

I am sorry for this podcast, and you

40:32

do have my number, but I will give you PAMs. I

40:34

don't have it yet, but you can just call her.

40:36

Yes.

40:37

The other quote from that interview, and it's the reason

40:39

I want to bring it up while we talk about better

40:41

things, which is at the end you

40:43

say, moving forward, I

40:45

just want to say yes to more things. I'd

40:48

like to not be bitter about my divorce or

40:51

how hard it is with my girls. I

40:53

just want them to be happy, and I

40:55

want to be happy. I like working,

40:57

and so I'm going to say yes more this

40:59

year, like hearing that now

41:01

like eleven years removed. Can you

41:03

imagine that what you would eventually say

41:05

yes to would be your

41:07

own show in Better thae Things three years

41:10

later.

41:11

Wow, that

41:13

is so cool. That is so cool

41:15

to think about that. That's

41:18

incredible. Good job, way

41:20

to do your homework, really

41:22

good. That's fascinating to me.

41:24

I still would like to be not

41:28

bitter about my that

41:31

thing that you said, and

41:33

also, you know, when

41:35

you have kids, Dna

41:38

said, knows.

41:39

She's not the Mexican one. Oh shit,

41:41

but go ahead.

41:44

Terry knows. Listen

41:47

your Mexican, you're Italian. And

41:49

then you're total like straight down

41:51

the middle brow white line.

41:55

Cool.

41:56

I'm a nightmare on every application.

41:59

Wait, what was I saying? That's so funny?

42:02

Yeah, that was. It's very

42:04

interesting because I didn't believe in

42:06

myself enough to be this

42:09

of the show. It took me a minute

42:12

before like the window

42:15

was opened, and I didn't believe

42:17

in myself.

42:18

How did you jump through it?

42:19

You only have certain windows

42:21

of opportunity in your certain

42:24

amount tim so the

42:26

timing this was the

42:28

time to jump through the window

42:31

and to say, okay, stop

42:33

judging yourself, you know.

42:35

And I was looking all around and I was I was

42:37

comparing like other shows

42:40

and other people, and I'm like, nobody's going

42:42

to want to watch a show with me as

42:44

the star. That's just never

42:46

gonna work. It's never gonna happen. And

42:48

I had to finally get over that. So

42:51

there's certain things that I

42:54

would have to get over. And you're

42:56

really making me realize that,

42:59

you know. Once I started my show, like I'm

43:04

the star and the director

43:06

of the show, and so I have to look at the monitor,

43:09

and it was like that time

43:12

that I'm looking at playback and I'm like, oh my

43:14

god, I used to have a jawline,

43:16

and now I actually don't. This

43:19

is so fucked up, Like all

43:21

those other shows that were animated,

43:24

you know that weren't animated, had

43:27

my beautiful jawline.

43:31

And then all of a sudden, I'm

43:33

starring in my show and I'm like, wow,

43:36

okay, So you have to get past

43:38

that. And it doesn't matter. When

43:41

you, as a woman, stop

43:44

being so freaked out about

43:46

how you present yourself, what you're wearing,

43:48

what your hair looks like, what your face

43:51

looks like, what your jawline looks like. Then

43:54

it doesn't matter, because

43:56

it's your confidence that puts other

43:59

people at ease.

44:00

When you started making the show, you said, I had

44:03

to go back to the bones of my life. I

44:05

wanted to make a show about the developmental stages

44:07

of all these women, myself, my

44:10

mother, and my kids. Did

44:12

doing that feel scary

44:14

at the.

44:14

Time, I mean, I

44:16

was so in deep in

44:19

country, as they say, like with

44:22

you know, being a single mom with the

44:24

three girls, with the aging

44:27

mom, like I was the sandwich. That's

44:29

when I first heard this expression the sandwich

44:32

generation. But I

44:34

was able to lean on what

44:37

I had and all this richness

44:40

around me because of the way I

44:42

saw, I saw everything. When

44:44

when when I realized

44:47

I remember this one moment that my mother

44:49

walked into the kitchen and I was like, oh Jesus,

44:53

she just was saying something.

44:55

And a lot of people can relate

44:57

to this when they have like an elderly parent

45:00

who says the same story over and over, or

45:03

they start talking about Verizon

45:05

or their phone company or you know, home

45:08

depot, and it's like, I have

45:10

a friend that we used to talk about. He's like, when

45:12

my mom starts talking, I want to drive

45:14

my car into a brick wall.

45:17

And so one day she was just saying something

45:20

and I just kind of like tilted

45:22

my head and looked at her, and I

45:25

realized, this is funny. If

45:27

I can take myself out

45:29

of it, take yourself

45:31

out of the feeling of like feeling

45:34

hurt or anxiety or anything,

45:37

those things are always going to be your

45:39

golden kernel of

45:41

what you can create.

45:45

You know, it's different for a painter

45:47

and a musician than it is for a

45:49

writer and a creator in

45:52

television and film.

45:53

When you're in your twenties, you use

45:56

writing to help repair your relationship

45:58

with your dad when you made better

46:00

things. Did turning your mom

46:03

into amuse have the same effect?

46:06

Absolutely?

46:07

And did she like being amused?

46:09

Absolutely? She

46:11

loves it. She loves being,

46:14

you know, part of any conversation. So

46:17

even if it's an episode where

46:19

like the episode where Phil Munchausen's

46:22

herself and breaks her foot

46:24

on purpose so she could my

46:26

mother was dying laughing, she

46:29

is known as the inappropriate laugher. She

46:32

thinks it's all fantastic. There

46:35

is a quote because

46:38

my dad was, you know, he was struggling,

46:40

struggling, and then when the

46:43

things started happening very positively

46:45

about better things like and how

46:47

it was being received, and the

46:49

show would get picked up and picked up. I

46:52

remember one day she looked at me and she said, it's

46:54

a good thing your father is not alive

46:56

to see this.

46:59

When people talk about the show, they

47:02

use an assortment of adjectives

47:04

that I think we mutually find really

47:07

embarrassing, where it's like

47:09

brave, I'm actually

47:12

not even gonna go on.

47:12

I think you know that, you know the other ones, which

47:15

words, yeah, it was

47:17

it was real, real, raw,

47:20

brave, vulnerable,

47:22

all the all the things that

47:24

make people people basically.

47:27

Yeah, like this term anti

47:29

hero?

47:31

What is that?

47:32

You mean? Human? And also

47:35

when they call women badass,

47:38

that makes me ew like

47:40

women have always like,

47:42

it's not a new thing. All these

47:45

badass women? What

47:47

the fuck is a woman like? That is

47:49

like saying ATM machine. That

47:52

is like saying free gift. You

47:54

don't you don't have to say badass

47:56

women? Thank you? You

47:58

get me?

47:59

And now concludes pamelist

48:01

ted talk.

48:03

There you go.

48:03

But one of my favorite scenes from the show, maybe my favorite

48:06

scene from the show, does tackle

48:09

quote women of a certain age

48:12

in a way that is tender and

48:14

candid. I thought maybe we

48:16

could watch it together for a second.

48:17

Oh my god, I'm so excited.

48:19

Okay, this is from season three.

48:22

Do you want to do it for me?

48:23

This clip is from season three,

48:25

episode ten of Better Things,

48:28

Show me the magic.

48:30

Here we go.

48:31

It's my actual job, groceries.

48:36

Stop asking my eta. You're supposed

48:38

to be taking care of our kids. Leave me alone.

48:40

Put down your phone.

48:42

I can't.

48:43

I gotta put my clothes back on.

48:44

It's so cold, aren't you freezing?

48:46

I'm hot all the time.

48:47

Oh you know some people say don't take

48:50

anything, and other people say you have

48:52

to take something otherwise

48:54

you'll get the bad thing right right, right, right right

48:56

if you don't take like hormones

48:59

or whatever.

49:00

I'm gonna check it out.

49:01

Plant. No, try the progester of It's

49:04

plant based. It works great. Literally,

49:06

It's the only reason I'm saying right now, it's all you

49:09

have had kids, and that means you've

49:11

had a hormone in you that protects you as you get

49:13

older. I haven't had any kids, what so

49:15

I'm at a higher risk.

49:17

God, finally something

49:22

no one else is on anything but me. Well,

49:25

I'm not.

49:28

Say the hardest part about going through all this

49:30

is that you realize too on top of it all,

49:33

you no longer exist as a woman.

49:35

You're like literally invisible to people.

49:37

No, I love being invisible.

49:39

It's like I have a superpower, let

49:41

my errands and go about my day and nobody bothers

49:44

me.

49:44

But how about that You don't realize how much juice

49:46

you used to get from it. That's what breaked

49:49

me out, you know what I mean? Like that day

49:51

I walked into Starbucks and the two cute

49:53

young chicks were getting all the juice and

49:56

then I realized, I

49:58

like that juice.

49:59

You've gone through a whole day and

50:01

nobody's like engaging with you. And it's

50:04

not just guys, it's girls.

50:06

Use I

50:08

think that the problem is that nobody

50:10

is talking to anybody.

50:12

There has to be.

50:13

Some kind of outlet for women and people

50:16

because we are all so busy.

50:18

We have to compare notes, right, because the pressure

50:20

builds up and this this

50:23

lets the puss out.

50:27

People who aren't sharing.

50:28

Women don't talk to each other.

50:31

Wow, that's one of your favorites.

50:34

Yeah, that's so cool.

50:37

Yeah, that's really cool watching

50:39

that now the subject

50:42

of what they're talking about and thinking

50:44

about the show, like having that kind of

50:46

conversation in a TV show. There

50:49

just hasn't been that many that I have done

50:51

that before or since.

50:54

How do you hold that like that kind

50:56

of that conversation.

50:58

Well, I mean I cast

51:00

all these incredible women to

51:02

actors and they

51:05

were all very open to talking.

51:08

And it was Chris Summer, Rachel

51:10

True, Rebecca Mets, Judy

51:13

Reyis, and you

51:15

know, we were able to talk.

51:18

So like I would sit us on the stairs

51:20

and say, you know, is anything going on

51:22

with your bodies or whatever? And so we had

51:25

organic conversations. And when

51:27

we were sitting around that table and

51:29

had the camera kind of roving around,

51:32

it kind of felt like you're

51:34

a fly on one of the bushes and

51:37

you're listening to these women, you

51:39

know, really share intimacies with

51:41

each other and frustrations

51:43

and unload. And

51:46

then the house that we're at is like

51:48

a really safe space and we are

51:51

just all open and free and

51:53

everybody's like just

51:55

sharing, sharing, talking,

51:58

and then the men come home early.

52:02

It's kind of like dropping a steaming

52:04

hot shit in a beautiful

52:08

fresh oonie in the shell.

52:10

Is that how you would describe this podcast?

52:16

I love this podcast. Talk

52:19

easy, No, But it's just

52:22

like I love that I

52:24

want people to talk the way they talk,

52:27

right.

52:27

You know, when we were watching that right now, I

52:30

was thinking that conversation is sort of

52:32

the epilogue to Babes,

52:37

Like it's the conversation that the

52:39

two women and Babes in their thirties, new

52:41

mothers, they wouldn't be having, but

52:43

it's the one they may have one

52:46

day, And it's the one that

52:49

I remember hearing as a kid.

52:52

You do, yeah, I mean then that's why

52:54

I yeah, I did, And

52:56

I did as as the oldest son as the burnt,

52:59

broken, dilapidated pancake. Yeah,

53:01

I did. And that's probably why I chose

53:03

that scene to play together, because

53:06

that that thing they're getting at, not

53:09

feeling useful, invisible,

53:12

I don't know, it's just just devastating.

53:15

Yeah, and also because we

53:18

weren't brought up like you were,

53:21

akin to that conversation you heard

53:23

it. I never heard anything like

53:25

that.

53:25

You never heard that from your mom?

53:27

No, No, I didn't

53:29

hear a lot from my mom. My mom was not She

53:33

was like, she told me never to shave my

53:35

legs.

53:36

My mom said the same thing to me too.

53:38

But.

53:40

I had to. I looked like sasquatch.

53:42

It was crazy. I was ten years old. It was

53:44

bananas. But yeah,

53:47

I would have really been

53:50

grateful for that. And so you

53:52

playing that for me makes me so happy

53:54

that that's out there, that people

53:57

can look at that.

53:58

The last line in that scene is

54:01

them going having these conversations.

54:04

Yeah, in full view, it's important,

54:07

like we need to do that. Yeah, I

54:09

was thinking the way you made better things, and

54:11

even some of this new movie there

54:13

seems to be like this proactive

54:16

quality to it, where

54:18

like things happen in your life that

54:20

are not particularly pleasant,

54:24

and then you turn and transmute

54:26

them into art over

54:28

and over and over again. And I wonder now

54:31

that you don't have the show.

54:35

Because you know the quote I used to say, bad

54:37

for my life, great for my show.

54:40

Now that you don't have the show, I put it all.

54:43

This is my question where

54:46

besides our podcast.

54:47

So a lot of people, like a lot of

54:49

people in my life, like my friends, are

54:51

like, oh my god, that you don't have

54:53

better things going on right now. I

54:56

got a whole folder

54:58

of ideas

55:01

for a reboot or a movie

55:03

of better things. But the

55:06

truth is, it's just going to morphine

55:09

to the things that I do, whether

55:12

it's I'm adapting something

55:15

that somebody else wrote or directing

55:17

something. I keep everything

55:20

and anything that's awful

55:22

or funny or any

55:25

kind of observation that I make,

55:28

I like to remember it. So, I

55:31

mean, I've been keeping a journal since I'm nine years

55:33

old, so I just call it brain

55:35

bits like my dad used to. It's

55:38

going to end up somewhere.

55:40

Yeah, it won't be for not Oh

55:42

yeah.

55:43

Also, you know, kind of my

55:45

brand was failure and getting

55:47

punched in the stomach, and I made

55:49

a whole show about it.

55:51

You want a Peabody.

55:52

There you go. And so now

55:54

it's like I know the way I

55:57

do things and the way I want to infuse

55:59

the next things that I do. So it's

56:02

like I'm starting over again. And

56:05

even though I have that beautiful

56:07

show, I have that whole five season of

56:09

Better Things, and now I have Babes

56:12

coming out, I'm really excited

56:14

to keep working and using.

56:17

All all that's happening in life.

56:20

Really just the Better Things file like

56:23

Better Things is just it's my brain.

56:26

I adore it.

56:26

Thank you.

56:27

The last thing I have about the show. We've

56:30

been talking about your life

56:32

and how it's informed the art and how

56:34

it shaped the art. Why

56:36

did you change? You're directed

56:38

by credit on the final episode.

56:42

Oh my god, you notice everything. That's

56:44

so cool. I don't

56:47

know. It was just like reclaiming a part

56:49

of myself.

56:50

What did you want to reclaim?

56:52

You know? That name, my born

56:55

name, you know, came from my

56:57

parents, and it just was just

56:59

a little something that I really wanted

57:02

to do. Boy, I had to make an argument

57:04

to the DGA for that one.

57:05

So now I'm gonna tell you you

57:07

changed to Pamela seagal adline.

57:10

Yeah, I put my born name

57:12

back in between. I kind

57:14

of thought I was going to like keep

57:16

going with that, but now I'm back Tom

57:19

Ladline with Babes.

57:21

It's okay that you didn't continue on with

57:23

that name change for Babes. But

57:26

as we go, this focus

57:28

and this like renewed

57:30

interest in mentoring young

57:33

women and young women of color and helping

57:35

them become directors or

57:37

work in the post production process of the film industry.

57:39

All of that, why is that something

57:41

you want to do in this moment

57:44

on the heels of the labor

57:46

strikes of last year, the larger

57:49

conversation about pay inequity in Hollywood,

57:51

the met Too movement, all of it.

57:53

Has all of that delivered you to this new

57:56

mission statement with this production company of

57:58

yours.

57:59

You know, as somebody who looks

58:02

around and sees everything like

58:04

you. I will be cradling him

58:07

after the podcast, a very

58:09

platonic, mentory, ted

58:11

talk loving way. But

58:15

you see the inequity

58:18

of the jobs, and I just think that people

58:20

don't know what jobs are available. So

58:23

it started becoming very clear to

58:25

me that we needed

58:27

to tell people what the jobs were

58:30

on sets, in post in production,

58:33

because when a lot

58:35

of kids are growing up, depending on where they

58:37

are. They don't think

58:40

outside any box other than

58:42

boys are going to play football,

58:45

be a doctor, a baseball

58:47

player, go to law school. And

58:50

it's just the bar is so high

58:52

to be a professional any of that.

58:55

And I just think that people don't know about

58:58

the jobs that are available in the

59:01

industry. And like when I

59:03

was coming up, like everybody in post was

59:05

like an old white dude and they

59:07

just hand those jobs over to each other.

59:09

And when I started working

59:11

with women in post,

59:14

it was a huge, you know, head

59:17

cracking open moment for

59:19

me and just

59:21

pushing back against these walls,

59:24

you know, being like, I mean, this term

59:26

gaslet is so overused

59:28

now, but just men

59:31

don't just this kind

59:33

of.

59:35

Seventy one say that.

59:36

I'm trying to think of the word when boys

59:40

think they're better than us and they're not.

59:43

Can you do it as a teenage voice?

59:44

Though boys think they're better than

59:46

us and they're not.

59:48

I was good? How would Kevin say

59:50

it?

59:50

Boys think they're better than us and they're

59:53

not.

59:54

Even though I am one and

59:57

Bobby Well, I don't believe

59:59

that boys are better than anybody

1:00:01

or girls.

1:00:02

Everybody's the same. And that's

1:00:05

all I have to say.

1:00:06

Talk easy, with Sam Fragos,

1:00:09

So I say good night, potify.

1:00:14

That impressive range that you just

1:00:16

demonstrated to close

1:00:18

us out since it is Mother's Day, yes,

1:00:21

can you tell me when you were a kid

1:00:24

before bed, who was the first

1:00:26

person to teach you about dialect

1:00:29

and voices?

1:00:31

My mom?

1:00:32

Can you share that with us?

1:00:34

My mummy when she would tuck

1:00:37

me in, she would do

1:00:39

voices with me. And you

1:00:41

know, she had all these dialects, all

1:00:43

these English dialects, and you

1:00:46

know she taught my brother and I and

1:00:48

now my kids all know the name of

1:00:50

the longest longest town

1:00:53

in Wales, I think, which is clamferpetwingeth

1:00:56

go Candatil.

1:01:00

Would take me ten years to figure that.

1:01:01

Out and it's just in there and all my kids

1:01:04

know it. And she would speak

1:01:06

with a Scottish brogue and she would speak,

1:01:08

you know, with an Irish accent. She would speak

1:01:11

in all different English dialects and she

1:01:14

was really brilliant. You know.

1:01:16

My dad always was kind of like thirsty

1:01:18

to be a performer, and he

1:01:21

would when he was a producer on the AM

1:01:24

New York which is now The Today Show

1:01:27

before it was Dave Garaway, he would be

1:01:29

Eli the Elf every year, and

1:01:31

my mother would call in as missus Claws,

1:01:34

saying, I'm very disappointed in the ELI

1:01:37

and it's just like this cool

1:01:40

thing that, Yeah, my mom

1:01:42

did that.

1:01:43

This whole career you've made out of voice work. Do

1:01:46

you think she saw something

1:01:48

in you before you could?

1:01:51

Yeah, she did. She always

1:01:54

said to me, you were

1:01:56

made for the world. She

1:01:59

always made me feel that I

1:02:01

was kind of on

1:02:03

the outside and something was

1:02:06

going to happen. I don't know. She always

1:02:08

made me feel like I was special

1:02:11

and I was going to help. And like from

1:02:14

the time that we walked on

1:02:16

a bus in New York City when I was

1:02:18

a kid, and there

1:02:20

was a man sitting next to my mom

1:02:23

and I took my mother's hand

1:02:25

and I took his hand and I put them together.

1:02:28

And then I think she didn't like it so much.

1:02:34

You were made for the world.

1:02:35

Ah, hey, that's what my mom

1:02:37

thinks.

1:02:38

I think you've kind of proven it. That's

1:02:41

so sweet.

1:02:42

It makes me cry. I'm gonna go home and

1:02:44

hug my mom tonight.

1:02:47

Pamela Adlin, what a way to spend

1:02:50

Mother's Day together.

1:02:51

What'd you get me?

1:02:52

I got you this podcast? There you go.

1:02:55

Oh, and my mother's cell

1:02:57

phone number.

1:02:58

Yes, Terry, I'm coming

1:03:00

for you.

1:03:01

Was this that right?

1:03:02

Yeah? This was great?

1:03:04

This was great.

1:03:05

Was it okay for you?

1:03:06

Yeah? It was okay for me. Pamela Adlin,

1:03:10

thank you for coming.

1:03:10

On, Thank you for having me.

1:03:13

All right, wow, we did

1:03:15

it?

1:03:15

Call me if you need anything. If the editor

1:03:18

says we need her to say Penis.

1:03:47

And that's our show special

1:03:49

thanks this week to Court Barrett and Mason Harris

1:03:52

at IDPR. I also

1:03:54

want to thank Neon Films and of course,

1:03:56

our guest today, Pamela Appline.

1:03:59

If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to share

1:04:01

it on social media. If you can, also leave us

1:04:03

a review on Apple, Spotify, wherever

1:04:06

you do your listening. If you'd

1:04:08

like to check out Pamela's new film, Babes,

1:04:10

It's out in theaters this Friday, May

1:04:12

seventeenth. If you'd like to hear more

1:04:14

episodes like this one, I'd recommend

1:04:17

our talks with Natasha Leone, Abby

1:04:19

Jacobson, Jrod Carmichael, and

1:04:22

Nick Krawl to hear those and more.

1:04:24

Pushkin Podcast listen on

1:04:26

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

1:04:28

wherever you like to listen. You

1:04:30

can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook,

1:04:32

Instagram, at Talk easy Pod Talk

1:04:35

Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok.

1:04:37

Our executive producer is Jennick Sabravo. Today's

1:04:40

talk was edited by C. J. Mitchell and

1:04:42

Sean Fitzgerald. It was mixed

1:04:45

by Andrew Vastola, who

1:04:47

was taped at Spotify Studios here in Los

1:04:49

Angeles. Our music is by Dylan

1:04:51

Peck. Our illustrations are by Chris

1:04:53

Schenoy. Photographs today are by

1:04:55

Julius Chew. Graphics are

1:04:57

by Ethan Sinca. Also want to thank

1:05:00

our team at Pushkin Justin Richmond,

1:05:02

Kerry Brody, Jacob Smith, Eric Sandler, Keira

1:05:04

Posey, Jordan McMillan, Tara Machado,

1:05:06

Owen Miller, Sarah Nix, Malcolm Gladwell,

1:05:08

gre Con and Jacob Weisberg.

1:05:11

I'm San Fragoso. Thanks for listening to the show.

1:05:14

I'll see you back here next week with a new

1:05:16

episode featuring Hacks co

1:05:18

creators Paul Downs and

1:05:21

Lucia and Yellow. Until

1:05:23

then, stay safe and

1:05:26

so