0:02

This is a global player original

0:04

podcast.

0:08

Welcome to Sweeney Sports. It's a podcast

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series where I get to interview people who've

0:12

done serious stuff with their lives

0:14

and then got into trouble. Big trouble.

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I'm not here to lecture them about that.

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I'm kind of a professor of big troubleology

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myself. I've got history. with

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the Church of Cytology, North

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Korea, Donald Trump, Vladimir

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Putin, Tommy Robinson, and

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the Russian army. I'm

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here to find out what it feels like to

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be in the deep doo doo,

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how you survive it, and then how the

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hell you get out of it. If

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you've been in trouble, you're not alone.

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So come along for the ride. You

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might learn some new tricks. You might

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have a laugh. but one thing is sure

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the best stories aren't told by

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the well behaved.

1:00

And once

1:02

you've listened to the interview, you can hear what I

1:04

really think about is in Sweeney keep

1:07

stalking. Find that exclusively

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on global player.

1:14

Today's guest is Chris Atkins.

1:17

Chris was an outstanding freelance TV

1:19

producer. working at the very top

1:21

of this game, making programs that made

1:23

good trouble, the BBC Panorama

1:26

and Channel four. Then

1:28

his passion to make a documentary overcame

1:31

his common sense, and he fell

1:33

in with some bad people. And

1:35

one day, he was convicted for

1:37

tax fraud, sentenced to five

1:39

years and ended up in onesworth

1:42

prison. listening to the howls

1:44

and groans of his fellow prisoners.

1:47

Chris,

1:48

that very first night in prison.

1:51

You were in trouble ever so deep.

1:54

How did you handle it? I'm not sure I did handle

1:56

it, John, to be perfectly honest with you. handly

1:58

implies I was sort of

1:59

in some way kind of on

2:02

top of what was, you know, going on. I wasn't,

2:04

I was sort of underneath what was going on.

2:06

So It was more a

2:08

question of your survival instincts kicking

2:10

in and adrenaline just flooding

2:12

through your system and it's your constant kind

2:14

of fight or flight mechanism really go

2:16

into overload, and and

2:18

you're just trying to get through it sort of minute by minute

2:20

really. I'm a laps Catholic. And

2:23

so I think I might have prayed.

2:26

Okay. You're laughing at me. Oh, Robert. Yeah.

2:28

Listen, I I know Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But

2:31

I think I or the other thing I would do is

2:33

when I'm afraid I there's some

2:36

there's an old girlfriend of my next girlfriend,

2:38

but she was in some kind of gang show.

2:40

And one of the things that it was, well,

2:43

I feel fade, I wish her

2:45

happy tune. Yeah. Did

2:47

you do some known? What's odd

2:49

about that situation is you'll

2:53

also overcome with relief. And that's I

2:55

know this sounds extremely odd, but I just

2:57

waited over four years to get the trial.

2:59

And the trial itself was horrendous experience.

3:01

I actually often say that the trial was much,

3:03

much worse than prison, even though I was going

3:05

home every night. And also, for four and a half years, I'd had

3:07

this crushing uncertainty because I didn't know what was gonna

3:09

happen. And even though I'd been convicted

3:12

of all counts and I've been sentenced to quite a

3:14

long time in prison. At least I knew my fate.

3:16

And when you've lived in a period of intense uncertainty

3:19

and then you finally get closure, there's

3:21

just this instant flooding

3:23

of relief that goes through your system. So it's closure,

3:25

but it's a disaster for you. But at least I

3:27

know what the disaster is. And I I always

3:29

say, like, uncertainty is the biggest killer in

3:31

this game. And I saw

3:33

this after I've been in prison for quite a while. I got

3:35

to know lots for the prisoners. A lot of whom were on

3:37

Remind. meant they were inside, charged

3:40

but not convicted in a waiting trial. And

3:42

and they'd come back from court having just been convicted

3:44

of sentence with this huge, great smile on their

3:46

face. And that would happen over and over and over again

3:49

because it's like I I know my fate, you know,

3:51

and at least I could start counting

3:53

the days until I could get out and it would

3:55

all be over. it's like an emotional response

3:58

rather than a a rational response, but

4:00

it there was certainly a feeling

4:02

of relief and closure. And I had the best

4:04

night sleep I'd I'd had in weeks that

4:06

first night inside. So what are we listening

4:08

to and what are we smelling when you're

4:10

inside ones worth Nick? Just to give you some

4:12

context, ones worth is a very, very old prison.

4:14

over sort of built in, I think, the eighteen fifties and hadn't

4:17

really had much maintenance kind

4:19

of repair work done to it since it's

4:21

a massive Victorian Gothic structure.

4:24

It's falling apart. The people

4:26

inside are falling apart in a sense that there's a

4:28

huge number of people that have very serious

4:30

mental health problems And Oh, this is a big thing.

4:32

Yeah. So there's a lot of people in prison

4:34

who ought to be In some kind of

4:36

Yeah. No. I'm not even in an Uni bin particularly

4:39

just audited to have psychiatric treatment

4:41

and worked. And especially that first wing,

4:43

so the first wing I went into was nicknamed

4:45

Beirut. because it was so kind of

4:47

troubling to be in. And so

4:49

there was a lot of people there had mental health

4:51

problems. There was a lot of people there who were

4:53

drug addicts and had been arrested and then

4:55

hadn't had their fix, so they were clocking

4:57

though going through their withdrawal. What's clocking

4:59

mean? Clocking is is when people are coming

5:01

down, coming off drugs, and they they

5:03

haven't had a fix. So that sends them

5:05

pretty wild as well. So what do

5:07

they do? They they they go scream and

5:09

shout and kick the door a lot,

5:11

basically. and that's what the people in mental health problems

5:13

are doing. And some people have mental problems

5:15

and a clocking, so they kick it even louder.

5:17

So I'm just sitting there like a sort of rat in a

5:19

hole. Absolutely terrified. listening

5:21

to this kind of cacophony of

5:24

madness of several hundred people just

5:26

echoing through this sort of huge, you

5:28

know, old decrepit prison wind. Did

5:30

you feel shame? Did I feel shame?

5:33

I'd sort of rinsed out my shame

5:35

during the trial. in a

5:37

sense. You know, in the trial, there's there's nowhere

5:39

to hide, you know. So you're there, you're

5:41

in the witness box, and you've got a very skilled

5:43

prosecutor. kind of ripping you and you

5:45

asshole every day. And it's sort of, you know,

5:47

so the shame had kind of

5:49

gone by that point because it'd all come out. It'd all

5:51

been in the daily mail. So there there wasn't anything

5:54

left shame me about really. I was I was

5:56

glad it was over. I was glad the

5:58

trial was over. And I'm like, I could at least start,

5:59

like, looking to how I make the best for

6:02

myself in this place. And I was thinking a lot about my son,

6:04

so I had a very young son at the time. He was

6:06

almost four at that point. So was coming to terms

6:08

with the fact that I wasn't gonna be in his life very much for

6:10

the next while. That was the hardest thing.

6:12

That was by far and away the hardest thing. Yeah.

6:14

How

6:14

did you deal with it in terms of

6:16

you? Did you say to

6:18

yourself okay, this is tough,

6:20

Chris, but you're gonna get through it. Did

6:22

you say something like that? Yeah. I mean,

6:24

there were there were times where you thought you wouldn't get

6:26

through it, but you don't sort of

6:28

have choice but to get through it

6:30

if that makes sense. I mean, I wasn't the kind of

6:32

person to think about topping myself

6:34

for anything. So if you're

6:36

not gonna do that, you've got no choice but

6:38

to get through it, which sounds insane. But

6:40

that is literally the time you can't stop the time

6:42

passing. When I've got inside these horrible prison

6:44

fellows in I'm gonna scrawl some graffiti on there,

6:47

which says they can lock the locks, so they

6:49

can't stop the clocks, which is one

6:51

of the most sensible things I sort of said

6:53

to me in my entire time in prison. No. Time

6:55

will go forward. You will get to the end of your

6:57

sentence. You will be released. That is going to

6:59

happen. So you've just gotta sort of it tight and wait for

7:01

it. There's also you've got a rich

7:03

sense of the absurd. Mhmm. And so there

7:05

must be was there a moment when

7:07

some measure of of the comedy --

7:09

Mhmm. -- situation like punch

7:11

through. Almost immediately. And

7:13

before I went inside, you know, I'm

7:15

working media like you and actually

7:17

written a book before years years ago to sort

7:19

of go with the film. What's that? I've never heard of what

7:22

It it was called taking liberties. I made a film called

7:24

taking liberties in two thousand seven. documentary

7:26

about the erosion of human rights, some of the Blair

7:28

government. And I wrote a book to go alongside

7:30

it. And I dated authors, you

7:32

know, I I was in the media world, so

7:34

a lot of data at all that's Yeah. I know exactly.

7:36

So my best friends are authors actually. So

7:39

I so people said to me that you've

7:41

gotta write about this. This terrible thing has happened in

7:43

your life, but use it know, usually

7:45

experienced to sort of write about it

7:47

and and to see what prisons really

7:49

like. And someone texted me the day before I

7:51

went inside a quote from May West.

7:53

which is always keep a diary because one day

7:55

the diary will keep you. So I

7:57

went inside with sort of pen and paper and a

7:59

a notebook. In fact, that actually confiscated my

8:01

notebook because I went in. I thought it is as

8:03

a weapon. So I had to bend, but no paper. So

8:05

I soon got some paper and started writing down

8:07

everything because it was so darkly comic.

8:10

what prison was like. It's sort of it's so dysfunctional.

8:12

It's like a dystopian faulty

8:14

towers. It was so mad that I

8:16

was like, I'm gonna have to keep note

8:18

of this because I won't remember all the crazy

8:20

details when I get outside. From day one,

8:22

really, I was writing it all down.

8:32

It's

8:41

like porridge. or is it? Not in the

8:43

slightest. I think So we all know the

8:45

porridge is for the great sitcom. Of course. With

8:47

with Ronald Barker and who is

8:49

a lovely chap who passed away very,

8:51

very, very young. Back

8:53

in sale. Yeah. As as Godba.

8:55

And mister McKay, there's Mister McKay, there

8:57

were there were two screws. So there was a nice one

8:59

in last mister Baroque was a

9:01

sweet screw. Yeah. Yeah. And then there

9:03

was mister Baroque, who's a

9:05

Scottish sort of environmentally Scottish

9:07

reference. Yeah. A panic to racial

9:10

derotype. So what it's a we'd

9:12

all watch Polish, you know,

9:14

and we'd watch short shot redemption and we'd watch

9:16

all shows set in prison. So that

9:18

was my only kind of contact really

9:20

with that world before I went inside.

9:22

So I thought it was gonna be a bit like that and

9:24

it it couldn't have been more

9:26

different. In porridge, they get the doors get open

9:28

every morning. They go out and exercise

9:30

or, you know, watch TV or go to the kitchen

9:32

where they have all their their fun shapes.

9:34

In one's worth, you just locked in your cell all day.

9:36

Now everyone pretty much everyone is

9:38

locked in their cell all day long. The cell in

9:40

Porridge is really quite big. Yes. Well, I had to

9:42

film camera in there, didn't they? So, you

9:44

know, the the cell in Wadsworth was designed

9:46

for one person and was housing. too.

9:48

So you're in a tiny tiny sweat box,

9:50

which is about six foot by

9:52

twelve foot. There's a toilet in

9:55

there. and a sink and that's it and that's where

9:57

you eat and that's where you go to the

9:59

bathroom and that's where you live, that

10:01

is where you are stuck for twenty

10:03

three plus hours a

10:05

day, which to me was just remarkably

10:07

insane. And I thought, well, no wonder that

10:09

prison is completely mad. If they're

10:11

stuck in this box, although you're just not allowed out to

10:13

do anything. and the other prisoners. Were

10:15

it your first prisoner, your first fellow

10:17

prisoner? White was very lucky with my first

10:19

cell mate in that he wasn't completely

10:21

insane, which was quite rare on that

10:23

wing. So he was like an old time.

10:25

In fact, he was actually slightly out of porridge.

10:27

He was a proper old timer. who had been

10:29

in and out of, you know, prisons all his life.

10:31

So he knew the ropes and he could

10:33

see straight away, I was just sort of fish

10:35

out of water, rabbit in the headlights.

10:37

H noodle class -- Yeah. -- barely

10:40

terrified slip of a

10:42

film director. It's dumbled into

10:44

prison. And he sort of right away clocked

10:46

what I was like. and sort of

10:48

took me under his wing to make sure I didn't

10:50

kind of drown in my first few days, and I'm very

10:52

very grateful for that. Right. You're locked in

10:54

the box twenty three hours out

10:56

of twenty four. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes

10:58

more. Sometimes you wouldn't get out at all. How did

11:00

you deal with that? And how did you push against

11:02

them? Well, first of all, I didn't

11:04

mind too much because I was recovering

11:06

from the trauma of the trial. I

11:08

hadn't eaten during the trial. I'd lost my app

11:10

and great stress people often

11:12

lose their appetite. So I was

11:14

eating and I was sort of sleeping and

11:16

I was sort of drinking lots of tea. and like

11:18

Brexit had just happened and it was all over

11:20

the news and like there was this huge,

11:22

like, momentous thing happening in

11:24

public life. And I'm a news junk I was

11:26

just watching the news a lot and kinda catching up because

11:28

I missed all of Brexit because I was so obsessed with my

11:30

trial. So so the

11:32

first few days weren't so bad

11:34

on that But then after all, you're like going off. We've got a fucking get

11:36

out of here and it's like, well, good luck with that. So

11:38

what I ended up doing was I realized

11:40

that the prison was

11:42

so short starved and so

11:44

underfunded that they actually needed

11:46

other prisoners to

11:49

help keep the place running. So what I started

11:51

to do was get prison jobs. and I

11:53

started basically sucking up the officers and

11:55

offering to help in any way I could.

11:57

And after a few weeks, they started saying, actually, yeah,

11:59

could you help us with this, help us with that admin?

12:01

And it was really simple task. But

12:03

that meant I could get out of my cell

12:05

and I could do some jobs and I

12:07

could get a shower and I could get a phone call and

12:09

some exercise and like see

12:11

something that wasn't the inside of my cell.

12:13

And and, you know, the busier you are,

12:15

the more time passes. I

12:17

have to the way I explained it people is, you know, if

12:19

you're working in a bar, we've all worked in bars, right,

12:21

order a shop or something. And if there's no

12:23

customers whatsoever, you're

12:25

watching each second go by. But on a busy

12:27

Friday night, the bars packed five hours goes like

12:29

that, doesn't it? So it was like that

12:31

for me when I was on my own in a cell

12:33

looking at the walls. time passed very, very

12:35

slowly. The busier I got,

12:37

the quicker time passed. And

12:39

actually, for my book, it was really interesting because I

12:41

was getting to see all these different corners of the

12:43

prison and seeing even more ludicrous

12:45

aspects of how the system wasn't

12:47

working. Give us a flavor of how

12:49

dysfunctional things are inside prison.

12:52

I mean, god, where do I mean, you've you've written

12:54

a great book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A bit of a stretch,

12:56

which is really funny. Yeah.

12:58

And also, it's dark as

13:01

well. And it's funny. It's funny and dark.

13:03

That sort of reflects the

13:05

the the place I was in. I mean, god, just

13:07

to give you some examples, one

13:09

of the jobs on the first jobs I got was

13:11

I was asked to sign the register. So

13:14

I was put on the side of the wing. So any

13:16

prisoner who had a job or was lucky enough to get on

13:18

a call would have to pass by me. And

13:20

I would tick their name off as they

13:22

went. parts, which is a

13:24

nightmare because a lot of them are sort of eastern

13:26

European. A lot of Ukrainians, actually. When you Eastern

13:28

Europeans, these extraordinarily complex names,

13:30

they didn't speak any English. So I was fucking fired

13:32

where they were. I thought this is a really

13:35

stupid job to give to another prisoner because I've just

13:37

been convicted of crime of dishonesty. I'm an

13:39

inmate as well. And so I could just

13:41

pretend someone was here and they weren't. And they could jump

13:43

over the fence and and escape. Yeah.

13:45

I'm in charge of this really important position. So

13:47

it was kind of bonkered stuff like that. The the

13:49

way that jobs were allocated was really mental.

13:51

So there was a guy few doors down for me

13:53

who was no touristy, sexist,

13:55

races. homophobic, transphobic,

13:58

and they put him in charge of the qualities. He

13:59

was a prisoner. He was a prisoner who

14:02

was put into trying to reduce

14:04

discrimination in the prison he was the

14:06

biggest racist on the wing. And that was like happening every

14:08

day. You know, people would do anything together as

14:10

well as kind of the porridge aspect came in the dark

14:12

humor. People would just do anything to get out

14:14

their selves. And so they would sign up to

14:16

anything. So there was a an an an

14:18

alcoholic synonymous group that would meet

14:20

regularly on my wing. But the main

14:22

group of people who went there were Muslims. because

14:24

they realized it was the way they could get out of their cells and all

14:26

go and hang out with their mates. And of course, Muslims

14:29

will tea total. None of them have junk in their lives, but

14:31

they'd all droop off to AA. so

14:33

they could just get a few hours out there sell. It

14:35

was just sort of bonkers. Did you go to

14:37

AA? Bunkers stuff like that. You know, I didn't go to

14:39

AA because I'd actually quit drinking.

14:41

I certainly for that first month when

14:43

I was inside. I was

14:45

climbing the walls for a drink. Don't

14:47

get me wrong because I've been the only way I've got through

14:49

my trials to drink my way through it. you

14:51

know, I work in media. No. It's it's it's

14:53

not a huge secret to know that people in media like a

14:55

drink. So and then to go to completely

14:57

nothing. And also, I was smoking a lot for when

14:59

inside. I was taking a lot of steeping pills sleep. So

15:01

all that I went kind of cold turkey

15:03

on. So yeah, whenever there was

15:05

like an advert for echo falls on

15:07

the telly, I would just go.

15:09

really wanna drink, but you couldn't get so yeah. Crackle

15:11

heroine if you want to, but you couldn't get so

15:13

many long. So I had no choice. And then

15:15

after a month or two, I stopped craving it it

15:17

went very, very quickly. Was there a moment when you

15:19

realized that actually that you're gonna

15:21

get through this? It's

15:22

just you see time passing

15:25

and I

15:26

found that Wadsworth was so crazily

15:29

dysfunctional. And once I was out

15:31

myself, I was witnessing this

15:33

sort of Pantamonte mine of the

15:35

absurd, really, on a daily basis,

15:37

that it was so

15:39

kind of there was so much going

15:41

on And I was kind of getting involved in as

15:43

much of it as like, because I ended up doing like ten

15:45

different jobs and I was sort of meeting the governor and I

15:47

sort of just I just kind of made myself straw,

15:50

narrowly busy and useful to them. But I

15:52

suddenly found time was just

15:54

passing. I'd suddenly go, you know, you'd be thinking

15:56

one day I'm never gonna get out of here. This terrible my life's

15:58

over that I'm never gonna get at. And then you suddenly

16:00

go, oh shit, it's November. Do you see what I mean? And

16:02

suddenly it would be, like, canteen would happen

16:04

every week. Canteen is where you'd get delivered

16:06

the stuff you order from the prison shop, and you'd

16:08

suddenly find Canteen was happening like

16:10

that. And Canteen meant another week had gone

16:12

by, or you'd be watching the apprentice

16:14

like weekly serial TV shows

16:16

were good because they would get they would kind of draw you

16:18

through time. It's really odd. So you'd always watch the x

16:20

spectrum apprentice and stuff like that. Like, oh, shit.

16:22

The apprentice Oh, you know, and that'll be

16:24

another week of gone by. So I I did

16:26

suddenly find us when I've done three months, and I'm

16:28

probably only gonna spend about seven or eight months

16:30

in ones worth. So I'm nearly halfway through my time

16:32

in ones worth. You see what I mean? So -- Yeah. -- people have

16:34

got on five years, you know, but you start

16:36

to break it down. Do this with anything like

16:38

laps. You see, don't take on the big

16:40

amount in your head break it down. So it's

16:42

like five years, you're gonna serve half of that in

16:44

custody. So, yeah, I instant did two and a half

16:46

years in custody. And of that, I'll probably only

16:48

do about seven, eight months in a nasty closed

16:50

prison like once worth. And the rest of that time will be

16:52

open prison, which is like a lot easier.

16:54

So I was very busy. I

16:56

volunteered as a a listener. What's a

16:58

listener? Being listener was a big part of my time

17:00

inside. And again, it was a big part of me kind

17:02

of getting through it. So they're like

17:04

Samaritans but in the jail. Mr.

17:06

Meredith's realized a quite a while ago, it

17:08

was very difficult for prisoners to

17:10

call them up and use their

17:12

service because your

17:14

phones are up in a very public place on the

17:16

wing and you call them up and say, look, I think

17:18

I'm serious. Everyone's overhearing it. It's

17:21

not confidential. So what the Americans did is they started a service

17:23

whereby they would train trusted prisoners

17:25

within the jail into being

17:27

kind of like in prison therapists almost.

17:29

and then you would be a do like a face to face

17:31

session with a prisoner who was suicidal

17:33

or self harming or just losing

17:36

their mind. And so I did a month's

17:38

very intensive training, and then I sort of did like

17:40

a probation thing with a very experienced

17:42

listener who's another prisoner. And then, yeah, there was

17:44

then on call sometimes

17:46

you do twenty four hour shifts, which meant I could get caught

17:48

up at three in the morning by a prisoner who was thinking

17:50

of killing themselves, and you get locked in a

17:52

cell with them. This is a mad part.

17:54

is it's not the end of the phone. You get locked in a cell like we are

17:56

now. The officer shops the door,

17:58

locks it, so he locked in, and then you like,

18:00

we're okay. What's on your mind? And they they tell me what's

18:03

troubling them. Tell us the story that you your

18:05

book with. So I was working as

18:07

a listener, which meant I'd be called out four, five times

18:09

a day, sometimes in the middle of the night.

18:12

and that was quite strange because I would go to sleep. I had

18:14

a cell mate then and we'd sort of watch Tali

18:16

and say no no no and go to sleep. And then

18:18

I'd get woken up at two in the morning by

18:21

an a shiny light in my eyes. Going, we've got

18:23

a classic one for your next

18:25

door, Chris. Can you come and do a listen? That's what

18:27

they say, do a listen is go for a

18:29

listener session. So I go, boom, boom, my flip flops, boom, my dressing up.

18:31

I'll be in my pants, so let me get dressed. And I

18:33

go and sit with them. And normally, they just wanted

18:35

a chair or they wanted some tobacco,

18:37

whatever. but sometimes you get people who in

18:39

the middle of psychotic episodes who

18:41

were just absolutely, you

18:44

know, sweating their madness out in front

18:46

of you. and this guy was just obviously

18:49

completely off his rocker. Should he want you a

18:51

small guy? No. He's absolutely enormous.

18:54

And I He wanna talk about quantum

18:56

mechanics. So I said, okay. We'll talk about quantum mechanics

18:58

because, you know, I actually studied physics at

19:00

Oxford. And so I know a bit about quantum mechanics, we

19:02

talked about, you know, Heisenberg's uncertainty

19:04

principle and wave particle duality in this. And

19:06

I just thought with people having a psychotic

19:08

episode, just talk about anything, just to let

19:10

the the madness subside. And

19:12

I thought of thought that he he

19:14

was, and he said, he sort of said to me, and I just wanna

19:16

taste something else. And I leaned in and

19:18

leaned into me. And he said, send me a song. I'll

19:20

slit your throat. And I was like,

19:22

officer, this person is

19:25

over. And is the officer

19:27

there? No. They're outside the door. There's if there's

19:29

a lively one, you say, fucking,

19:31

like, stay outside the door, please. And

19:33

they come and take him away, which they did on

19:35

that occasion. Sometimes they'd have gone off for a faggot cup of

19:37

tea and you're like, come back. Didn't you

19:40

sing? I would have tried did not sing. By that stage, I've

19:42

been doing it for several months. So

19:44

I was seeing people who were

19:46

having very, very violent mental

19:49

break accounts on a kind of hourly basis. And

19:51

I saw people who were self harming. I saw

19:53

people before after suicide

19:56

attempts. And I got completely normalized

19:58

If I was confronted with that now, I would lose my

20:00

shit and run away. But it's so

20:02

weird. You become very violent. You must do when

20:04

you're sort of reporting on wars and off. see

20:06

one dead body freaks you out. You see

20:08

twenty. It's your job. It's the

20:10

injured that'll upset me, not the dead. There

20:12

you go. So you become desensitized to

20:14

a huge number of things. and you

20:16

adapt. So I I adapted to that and I

20:18

was like, oh, sling sling it up,

20:20

mate. I don't wanna go right to

20:22

bed. what are the officers like?

20:24

Because they're in prison too. They are.

20:26

And we would joke sometimes.

20:28

It's like, you know, you'd say, dude, I've

20:30

got five years. you've got a life

20:32

sentence. Yeah. I'm getting out.

20:35

And I did feel sorry for a lot of

20:37

them. I know most of them were really

20:40

dedicated, honest, hardworking men

20:42

and women's, a lot of women working as

20:44

officers who were doing extraordinarily difficult

20:46

work in terrible circumstances

20:48

Not well paid. Terrible paid.

20:51

And you you sort

20:53

of all mucked along together really. So there wasn't

20:55

a sort of damon us in the porridge kind

20:57

of working together against the system. Like, they

20:59

thought the system was fucked as well. They thought

21:01

it was totally underfunded and

21:03

people were being locked up who didn't need

21:05

to be there. and there wasn't any mental health treatment

21:07

for them. And they're just

21:10

these these people were being crushed. The

21:12

prisoners were being crushed. they became

21:14

more damage that went out and committing more crimes. The

21:16

officers could see that for themselves and we could

21:18

see that. So there was a kind of

21:20

camaraderie there. And as I said, I made a decision

21:22

very early on to be a complete screw

21:24

bit and just do whatever they

21:26

wanted within reason. And in a terms

21:28

by the way, screw bit It's

21:30

a technical term for someone who's just sort of

21:32

helping out the officers. So some of the kind of the prisoners will be

21:34

always a bit of a screwbitch. But I was like

21:36

totally cool with that because I got a bigger cell,

21:38

I got better food, I just

21:40

got a far easier time in

21:43

there. because I was working for them and

21:45

helping out, often doing pretty minor stuff, but

21:47

also as a listener, I thought I was doing something

21:49

that was really really worthwhile and was helping

21:52

these people. did it also help you? It's usually

21:54

yeah. God, yeah. I mean, it just makes you a

21:56

lot less judgmental. Like, when I first got inside, I

21:58

would see some of these nuts walking

22:00

down the wing and I go, oh my god, stay away, you know,

22:02

get the cross in the garlic out, never want to

22:05

set foot in this guy's path

22:07

ever. they're terrifying. But then once you then

22:09

with that same guy two months later, you start doing

22:11

a listener session with them and you sit down with them and

22:13

you realize they were abandoned as children or you

22:16

realize they've got ADHD or

22:18

you realize their wives just left them or you

22:20

realize they have some problem that they're not

22:22

getting support with. You start I mean, just

22:24

builds empathy on a huge huge scale and you think God you

22:26

poor fuck it. Why are you here? Did

22:28

you become a nicer person

22:30

because of I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

22:32

Yeah. Definitely. the jury's still out on

22:34

that. I leave it as well

22:36

as to to decide that. But I

22:38

definitely yeah. I felt develop

22:40

a much, much greater understanding for people

22:42

who are really are at the bottom of the

22:44

barrel of light chances.

22:47

And people would say God, you to me, you must feel really

22:49

unlucky. And I'd say no in here, I feel like the luckiest

22:51

man alive because I've got my

22:53

privilege. I've got my chance

22:55

in life. I've got a support network. I've

22:57

got a family and friends to go back to. I'll

22:59

probably be able to do work when I get

23:01

out, but I'm gonna be okay. All

23:03

these people in here have none

23:05

of these. fortunate things in their life that I do, and they're just

23:07

gonna remain fucked and stuck in

23:09

the system.

23:24

How did you

23:26

do with missing your son? Well, you can't.

23:28

That's that's almost the one thing that

23:30

you can't sort of

23:33

mitigate. So like we

23:35

talked about missing white to

23:37

take a silly example, like missing white.

23:39

After a month, you stop caring. I

23:41

got inside and I was like, my god, am I drinking instant coffee? Oh, you

23:43

know, after a month, he's still quite like instant

23:45

coffee. So, you know, you know, my mattress was horrible

23:47

sleep on it first. After a while,

23:50

didn't mind at all quite looking forward to going to my bed, get a good

23:52

night sleep. So you you you adapt

23:54

and change to everything except missing your

23:56

children. So that that remained

23:59

horrible on day one and it was horrible until the

24:01

day I left. It doesn't they never kind of

24:03

got any better. The

24:05

the one thing that

24:07

it was though is sort of stopped me losing my

24:09

mind, there was almost the way I'd say

24:11

to myself, look, you've got to keep your shit

24:13

together because you've

24:15

already done him a huge wrong

24:17

by going away and abandoning him as

24:19

a father. You can't compound

24:22

that by losing your

24:24

mind and being an even worse

24:26

father. You know what I mean? You've got to keep yourself

24:28

together for him so that when you have

24:30

a visit or when you talk to him on the phone or

24:32

when you do whatever with him, you

24:34

are a good functioning father for that short amount of time.

24:36

And when you get out, you're a really good

24:38

functioning father. Like don't lose your mind

24:40

because he needs you. he'll still need you.

24:42

So that was definitely a kind of a sort of wake

24:45

up call to myself to not like

24:47

plumber into sort of self pity

24:49

depression or anything. The

24:51

other thing is that in the middle of this, I was

24:53

writing to you. I could send you emails and

24:55

you wrote me kind of letters back in

24:57

your system. And there was

24:59

to be honest, I think it's the funniest letter I've

25:01

ever received in my whole life, which

25:04

is ice screening,

25:06

and I'm listening to the fellow prisoners, and

25:08

I self harm, people scream

25:10

and groan, and I'm sitting

25:13

in my cell, and I'm

25:15

thinking life is pretty wretched. And I

25:17

switch on the tele and there's this

25:19

awful clip show on channel five

25:21

when things go wrong on tele. And

25:23

there's you guessing on about

25:25

losing a example of the church of Scientology yet

25:27

again. And I said to myself, you know,

25:29

Chris, well, it's not that bad. You could be

25:31

fucking sweetener. Yeah. I think I said, I and I

25:33

thought my career was on the kids.

25:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

25:37

Yeah. That's a lot. But it was it was and

25:39

I actually had a dinner party

25:41

that weekend, and I read it out to

25:43

John Not the war surgeon and his missus and

25:45

a couple of other pals. Every

25:47

single person around the table was crying

25:50

of laughter. but also also

25:52

an aberration of the what you

25:54

were doing, which is in this dark, dark

25:56

place. You were

25:59

rules you were -- Yeah. -- being on the bright side

26:02

of life? Well, looking on the bright side, looking on the

26:04

funny side as well. And I think in a

26:06

way that helped, if I'd gone to

26:08

a less I've gone to

26:08

a more ordered prison or prison that was better

26:11

run, I probably wouldn't have got through

26:13

it as well as I did. It was because it

26:15

was such an extreme of

26:18

misery and dysfunction. It produced

26:20

this kind of deranged

26:23

comedy on a on on a

26:25

daily basis. So you you you were kind of able just

26:27

to kind of keep laughing. It was very very

26:29

odd just sitting in this prison ring with all this

26:31

kind of claim going on. And then

26:33

because you you only got five channels. Like, you don't get

26:35

Netflix inside. You know, the Daily Mail would be furious.

26:37

So I watch channel fight for the first and

26:39

only time in my life. and

26:41

there's like when TV goes bad, and there pops up fucking John

26:43

Sweet. You know, I was like, I

26:45

know it. And he goes, oh, so I told

26:48

the g, and I was like, oh, god. Here

26:50

we go. So until this again. So that's right.

26:52

I'll put that in my letter. If you

26:54

could, would you sentence the editor

26:56

of the Daily Mail to

26:58

a weekend once with? I think absolutely. I think, look,

27:00

one of the things that permeates the

27:02

public debate about prisons is this is

27:04

the holiday camp myth.

27:07

is this varsical notion

27:09

that prisons are are really

27:11

soft. They're really easy and

27:13

people go there and they're not

27:15

really punished. and look, they're bad

27:17

people they've done wrong. They need to go to

27:19

prison and suffer. So that

27:21

means that whenever the system or

27:23

any politician dares to try and

27:25

do something, vaguely progressive

27:28

in order to try and fix the

27:30

problems that people in prison have. The

27:32

daily mail starts squealing

27:34

from the rooftops. This is all like Holiday Camp.

27:36

And the measure gets shelved. And the consequence of

27:38

that is prisons failing their jobs to do any

27:40

kind of rehabilitation people walk out of prison and immediately commit more

27:43

crime and create more victims. So

27:45

it it's hugely self defeating by

27:47

the Daily Mail. Think that they're sort of being

27:49

somehow being tough on crime. to

27:51

have an approach to prisons

27:53

that in and of itself makes crime worse. That's

27:55

what the Daily Mail does. And

27:57

they just love these stories. son does

27:59

it as well. The kind of, you know,

28:01

lags living it up in prison things.

28:03

The It's just total fantasy. So,

28:05

yes, I think that the edge of the Daily Mail and

28:07

the sun and and the spreads and

28:09

stuff, should all go and spend a week

28:11

in Wadsworth. And I think they'll come out and they're

28:13

gonna go, oh my god, okay. Right. What have

28:15

been writing about prison so far is

28:18

complete dribble. because it's terrible for the officers as well. The officers haven't

28:20

done anything wrong. You know, officer

28:22

mental health is a huge crisis.

28:25

There was a spike in

28:27

officer's suicide during the

28:29

lockdown because the officers having to deal

28:31

with such horrendous problems inside

28:33

during the pandemic know, an officer

28:35

killed himself while I was in Wadsworth, you know,

28:37

that we all were locked up while the officers went on for a day

28:39

at his funeral. So it's it's

28:42

it's it's terrible for the officers as well, having to deal with this sort

28:44

of trauma of what's happening in prisons. And it's

28:46

also awful for the prisoners, which means that they'd

28:48

go out and commit more crimes. It's

28:50

not all bleak. Tell us about the singing. Oh,

28:52

I joined choir. I mean, I

28:54

joined anything. And if anything, if there was

28:56

an option to do something, that

28:59

wasn't sitting your cell. I always said yes to it.

29:01

One, it got me out myself, and two, it was just

29:03

all good content for my

29:05

book. So there was a

29:07

a choir that And

29:09

again, you're

29:09

like I mean, the cynicism I

29:12

mean, the cynicism is really quite joyful. Isn't

29:14

it? You're never like, oh, gosh. This

29:16

is a really good line from the book. It

29:18

was I mean, and it was absolutely awful and

29:20

some things that were very, very, very bad that

29:22

would happen in the prison, I was like,

29:24

look Patty's awful back I'm

29:26

great seeing in my book. And and but

29:28

that's this kind of media sort

29:29

of mentality, isn't it? It's not just

29:32

believes it leads. It's yes. If it believes

29:34

it leads, but it's also, like,

29:36

this I didn't do this. I

29:38

didn't create this prison

29:40

and run it this badly. But at least I can do

29:42

a self and I wasn't

29:45

actively making anything worse. If anything I was

29:47

trying to help, I was doing listening to

29:49

work and I was doing other stuff. But yeah,

29:51

I was by helping people, I was also getting

29:53

content from my book. And I, you know, I'm very, very

29:55

sort of open about that. Tell me about the singing

29:57

then. So so one of the things that I

29:59

sort of signed up to It just looked

30:01

absolutely insane was a

30:03

choir, which was called, but I'm not shitting with you,

30:05

John. It was called the liberty choir,

30:07

okay, which is a prison for

30:09

choir. in a jail seemed to be a remarkably

30:11

ironic contradictory title. And

30:13

it was very popular

30:16

amongst lots of the people who were

30:18

doing kind of like drug rehab

30:20

courses. And it was they were kind of encouraged to

30:22

do it it was this idea they got out of their selves

30:24

and they went and did some singing, it was sort

30:26

of introducing themselves to sort of art

30:28

and culture and

30:30

letting them themselves in a way that wasn't sort of

30:32

beating people up with self harming or selling drugs. You

30:34

know, there's lots and lots of sort of

30:36

research and stories of people who

30:40

through music or through any form

30:42

of culture really. They sort of see

30:44

AAA world that they didn't really know

30:46

existed and maybe help steer them away from

30:48

crime, you know. So I would sort of go along

30:50

to this and sing as well, and they

30:52

would sing a price tag by Jesse

30:54

J. And then we'd cut to

30:56

Gloria by Vidal d. And it was

30:58

so it's this really mad eclectic sort of mix of songs.

31:00

And then they had this award ceremony

31:02

for the Office of the Year Awards

31:04

in the Prison. So I went and wrapped

31:07

Jesse Chai in front of, like, two

31:09

hundred boot faced officers in in

31:11

the middle of a prison chapel going, is

31:13

this really happening? you know,

31:15

it's so surreal. But I've had to say

31:18

yes. So the charity is run by good people.

31:20

Yeah. And I what's it what's it's

31:23

it's It's MJ's liberty choir. So it's in and they do it

31:25

a whole bunch of prisons and they go with liberty

31:27

choir dot co dot u k. Something like that.

31:29

Yeah. Yeah. People can Google it and people can

31:31

Google it. They need some money. They can donate and

31:33

they can go and sing and sign up, go

31:35

and sing in a prison. So

31:37

you blast. So people from out cycling Absolutely.

31:39

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so I I

31:41

would go in and there'll be these it was mainly

31:43

women, but some men who would come in, and

31:45

they're all volunteers, and they would come and they

31:47

would sing along with the prisoners as well. And then the idea is that

31:49

when the prisoners get out, they get

31:51

released, they can go along and do

31:54

the weekly sort of singing

31:56

rehearsals with the choir out

31:58

in the outside world. So it's a

31:59

way of kind of giving prisoners

32:02

something to sort of engage with and

32:04

do when they get out that isn't going

32:06

back to crime. And it's a way of just treating people

32:08

as a human being, and rather than

32:10

a piece of scum, which is how the

32:12

system treats And it's a way of saying to them, look, you know, there there is a

32:14

path that that isn't back to crime.

32:16

Were the people there were good voices?

32:18

No. No.

32:19

I mean, that we I

32:22

mean, some some did and some

32:24

were terrible, but it it didn't matter. I mean, I'm I'm

32:26

no great singer, but III let it. It was

32:28

it wasn't really about that. It was

32:30

about freeing yourself from the drabiness

32:32

of of prison

32:33

life.

32:47

What was your

32:50

darkest moment? What was your best moment?

32:52

Darkest moment first? My

32:54

taught me just a moment. I think probably quite

32:56

a few. I think it

32:59

it's always when you think it's going to get much,

33:02

much better than it doesn't. So

33:04

oddly enough, it was kind of when I got to

33:06

open prison. So I only did nine months in

33:08

Wadsworth, and then I had to do twenty one months

33:10

in Open Prison. So the book is all

33:12

about Wadsworth. that was only like a third

33:14

of my time inside. But that's the

33:16

intense that's the intense time. But

33:18

that's like the bar on the Friday

33:20

night. okay. It was after I'd I'd got stuck

33:22

in and I was doing all these jobs and I was

33:24

a listener and I see in the choir and doing

33:26

God knows what. I was so busy.

33:29

Time was flying by. And I

33:31

was writing all this stuff for the book and it was just

33:33

like, oh my god. Like, you couldn't

33:35

believe what was happening each day. then when get open

33:37

prison, time slows right down again.

33:39

It's suddenly the bar, it's six o'clock on a

33:41

Monday and there's no customers, you know,

33:43

watching the clock. So

33:45

on and because I didn't have that intensity

33:48

anymore, I didn't I kind of lost track

33:50

with my friends, so I made some really good friends in

33:52

Wadsworth because it was so mad and so

33:54

intense. I suppose I can compare it to being in a

33:56

war zone. And in war, what happened? Soldiers

33:58

formed these bombs that like last last

34:00

forever. There's an intense camaraderie.

34:03

and then you get to open prison and there's none of that.

34:05

So you kind of slightly get lost there. So

34:07

I think actually my darkest moments were open prison because

34:09

I was like, fuck. I've

34:11

got through ones worth and you think, oh, well, I'm done now and you're

34:14

like, shit, I've actually got even more time in

34:16

open. And there's nothing really

34:18

to to do.

34:20

So that I kind of

34:22

withdrew into myself a lot more.

34:24

And so open bizarrely, it was open

34:26

business at my darkest

34:27

moments. And your best moment.

34:29

getting

34:29

out.

34:30

I mean, I'm kind of looking

34:32

at coding. If there's an experience, it was a pain

34:34

in the ass throughout. So leaving, I

34:36

think, was was definitely the best

34:38

bit. which was the twenty eighth

34:41

of December twenty eighteen. What I

34:43

can remember the date? You miss Christmas and you see

34:45

Christmas? Yeah. They wouldn't let me out early

34:47

in time Christmas. But I was like, you know what? I'm winning. I don't care.

34:49

Like, everyday is Christmas day. Abel's like, oh, it's

34:51

really awful. They wouldn't just let you out. And I was like,

34:53

look, it's a British girl justice system. Like, they

34:55

don't do sort of kindness. They don't go,

34:58

alright, out you go for Christmas day. God

35:00

bless you. You know, it's not like that

35:02

in prison. you

35:04

know, you're getting out on that day, you're getting out on that day, but I didn't care. You

35:06

know, I was going home to be with my son and

35:08

I was I was gonna start living

35:11

my life again. So, yeah, I'd say the end. The end was definitely

35:13

the best bit. And your relationship with your son

35:16

is good? I'd never better. I mean, it

35:18

was it it maintained and

35:20

that is almost all down to my ex Lottie

35:22

Mogarque, the novelist. She was fantastic throughout

35:24

and she'd sort of said on day

35:26

one like we're not gonna let

35:28

this be us. You know, you're not gonna

35:30

lose your relationship with your son.

35:32

So she would bring him to visit every

35:34

opportunity. I would do phone calls all the

35:36

time. I do letters and drawings and stuff backwards and

35:38

forwards. And then the advantage of open

35:40

prison is suddenly they can visit you for a lot

35:42

longer and also you start getting

35:44

days out so

35:46

I can start going home on home leave and I get to stay out overnight

35:48

with him. So as time went on, the

35:50

amount of time I spent with him got

35:52

great and great and greater. So

35:55

it meant that when I got was released, it wasn't like you haven't seen your dad for two

35:57

and a half years. It was like I was

35:59

getting more increasingly involved in his life during that

36:01

last period of open

36:04

prison. and he moved back in with me and it was like I've never left.

36:06

Kids are amazing like that. Kids are they're

36:08

they're they're so resilient. You know, he wanted his

36:10

dad back, but it wasn't like

36:13

wasn't like an acclimatization phase where we kind

36:15

of got to know each other again. It was

36:17

like, right, you're back now. Let's let's let's get on

36:19

with it. Let's hope it's fun. there'll be some of

36:21

the a small group of people listening to this who might be in trouble, who

36:23

got a serious expectation of going to

36:26

prison. Mhmm. What would your

36:28

advice be? It's funny I

36:30

get approached by people all the time on social

36:32

media to Instagram and in Twitter.

36:34

I get messages from people. I

36:36

I don't know. You know, I've never followed them. I don't

36:38

know who they are in their oh, my dad's going to prison.

36:40

I'm going to prison. My wife's going to prison. But, you know,

36:42

they sort of and they sort of asked me this. And

36:44

I come back to that point I made right at

36:47

the start. you know, uncertainty is the worst

36:49

bit. I I do say that that the the

36:51

fear of it is more crushing than the thing

36:53

itself. And it certainly was to me and a lot

36:55

of the people I knew And actually, you know, once you

36:57

get inside and you start getting on with it, I mean, yes,

36:59

prisons are horrendous. They're horribly

37:02

underfunded. They're very sort of

37:04

violent, dark, dangerous places,

37:06

but you can make the best

37:08

of it. People always worried

37:10

about violence. Everyone always says, God, what are you worried about getting beaten up? And I think

37:12

that's a big part of when people have been faced with

37:14

prisoners. They're worried about being attacked. And it's

37:16

like, as long as you kind of stay out of

37:18

people's way,

37:20

it's quite straightforward to go through prison without ever getting

37:22

into any kind of violent trouble. And I certainly

37:24

didn't. I mean, I was sort of threatened a few

37:26

times, but you could just sort of stay

37:29

up people's way. you were not only useful to the screws, but you

37:31

also used Absolutely. You wrote them letters. III

37:34

made myself invaluable to my

37:36

fellow prisoner.

37:38

And I would say this to anyone who's listening who is maybe

37:40

going inside and sort of is, you

37:42

know, has some level of education.

37:44

He's like, that is a rare

37:47

commodity in prison. A lot of

37:49

prisoners are illiterate. A lot of the system

37:51

works on old paper forms. So if you

37:53

can sit and write things out for people, whether it's a form to

37:55

try and get that trainers, whether it's to try and apply for a visit

37:57

for their try and get some chewing gum or

37:59

whatever it is. You've always got to

38:01

fill in a bloody form. So I

38:03

would do that. I would

38:05

say just to people, I would write I would write

38:07

their skills and forms out or their

38:10

applications or whatever, then word would get around. So people would

38:12

just turn up at my cell and

38:14

say, Chris, you fill this in for me? Could you write this letter for me? And I would always

38:16

say, yes, never ask for anything in

38:18

return. And that just meant I was just kind of a

38:20

useful person on

38:22

the wing. So I never

38:24

really got any shit from people

38:26

because I was I know I was a listener and

38:28

I was helping the people who no one else

38:30

would help. And then I was helping the officers as well. So they would sort of keep an eye on

38:32

me. So I would say, like, let make

38:34

yourself invaluable. Throw yourself

38:36

into it. and you probably

38:38

won't get any shit for people, and

38:40

you'll find the time passing quicker

38:42

than you imagined. So I'm

38:44

I'm at Vaslav Havel

38:46

in ACH when he was in and out

38:48

of prison. A year later, he becomes

38:50

president of Czechoslovakia. But I asked him

38:52

what was prison like, and he said, well, listen, you know,

38:54

I'm

38:54

in prison and my cell mate says, hey, you're a

38:56

rightsayer. I've got problems with my woman and

38:59

the handle writes him a

39:01

beautiful love letter. Mhmm. And the guy says that that's

39:04

fantastic boss. Thank you. I've

39:06

got trouble with my appeal. And that's

39:08

what I've read says fantastic appeal

39:10

to the judges. And then

39:12

the prisoner says, listen, I'm

39:14

reporting on you for the secret police,

39:16

what should I write? And how

39:18

was it? Thank you. This is

39:20

an interesting problem and

39:22

have all starts dictating.

39:24

And then word gets out that

39:26

everybody inside

39:28

prison knows that Havel will write you a great lesson. And then

39:30

really quite quickly, he started

39:32

running or not running,

39:34

but doing a lot to undermine the

39:37

secret police system, and the prisoners were nice to

39:39

him. Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as undermine

39:40

the secret police, but I certainly Well,

39:43

you would like Britain's Britain's comedy checkers

39:46

on that. Yeah. Yeah. Not yet. But the

39:48

Yeah. The but but

39:50

no. Certainly, I used that.

39:52

it it wasn't deliberate at first, but it

39:54

was just a way of kind of making

39:56

friends with people. And do you think

39:58

one of this huge like eighteen stone,

40:02

you know, I get lumbers into my cell and says, oh, would you worry.

40:04

Look at my mom. I was like, I don't know why I left it to

40:06

his mom. You know what I mean? But then that guy is

40:08

never gonna cause me any trouble and actually might get

40:10

me out

40:12

of it. There was one time at the at the survey, which is where

40:14

you go and get your food. And and I was on

40:16

like the calmest wing. By the off I moved

40:18

off to Beirut quite with you your

40:20

new wing called? It was it was h wing,

40:22

but there was a corner of it. Oh, copy. We're gonna hate

40:24

me if I say this, but there was a corner of it

40:26

that was known as little hamster.

40:28

because that's where all the bankers and lawyers and white collar

40:31

criminals, including the film producers I might add

40:33

ended up. And I used to live. I live in

40:35

the house. I live near there's

40:37

no one who's because quite a few people that had come from

40:40

Hampster. So it was quite it was we'd

40:42

like to do the crossword and listen to classical

40:44

German. you know, try and sort of

40:46

drown out the noise. But I I would go to the

40:48

survey, which way you got your food. And I think I picked

40:50

up an apple and I was supposed to take a

40:52

chocolate bar or something like that. There's like this a lot of trouble happens over food

40:54

in prison. And there was a guy who was in

40:56

charge of handing this stuff out said, no,

40:59

you're not supposed to have the

41:01

chocolate pie supposed to have an apple. It looks like the apple had like, you know, magnets coming out of it

41:03

basically. And I said, I don't want the fucking apple. It's disgusting.

41:05

I'll die if I eat that. I'm gonna take

41:07

the chocolate pie. and

41:09

you got very upset at all. I'm gonna come and find out what I'm gonna sort you

41:11

out and find out where you live. And there's a witness by a lot

41:14

of people. And as I was going back to myself, I think at

41:16

least three or four,

41:18

like, really hard and gangsters came over to me. He said, Chris, do you wanna sort

41:20

them out? Do you wanna sort them out? We'll go sort them out?

41:22

because I'd help them with their letters or their admin or

41:24

their apps or whatever. And I was like, no.

41:26

Don't don't go and do these boys just having a hard day.

41:28

I mean, I think I didn't end doing a listener session

41:30

with the guy a month later, and he was quite a

41:32

troubled individual. So but but

41:34

that was it was quite comforting to know that

41:36

if if ever there was even the slightest threat

41:38

towards me, there were people who had my

41:40

back purely

41:42

through admin. basically. So coming back to your question, I would just

41:44

say to people, you know, make

41:46

yourself useful. Yes. So

41:48

the the whole goal of this show

41:52

is to talk about people in trouble. As far as my guess go, you've

41:54

hit the lowest of the low. Oh, thank

41:56

you. Yeah. I I do try. I

41:58

would aim my aim low, but don't be in

41:59

the middle. so boring.

42:02

But also, you got out of it. Yeah.

42:04

And you and you did it by being nice

42:06

to people even though you won't admit

42:08

that. Yeah. You did. No. I think And and and and

42:10

also, you know, you can always find something to

42:13

laugh at and try and avoid sort

42:15

of self pity and

42:17

going kind of oh, this is wrong. It shouldn't have happened and all that

42:19

sort of stuff. And was just like, well, no one no

42:22

warns to that. But but if you

42:24

can sort of just approach with a smile on your

42:26

face, people

42:28

People

42:28

are warm to that more. Good. Thank you.

42:30

Chris Atkins are coming on soon. Thank you, John.

42:36

Thanks for listening to this episode of

42:38

Sweeney Chokes. You can hear what I really think

42:40

about. And then Sweeney keeps

42:42

talking. Find

42:44

that exclusively. on global player. Listen

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and subscribe now.

42:48

Until the next time. Goodbye.