0:00

You are listening to Sustain Now

0:03

. In this podcast , you will

0:05

learn from successful entrepreneurs

0:07

and scientists about the newest climate

0:09

change solutions to address the climate

0:11

crisis , from food and agri-tech

0:14

over energy material

0:16

innovation to circular economy

0:18

. This non-profit podcast

0:20

is hosted by Frederica . She

0:23

is a tech entrepreneur and climate

0:25

enthusiast . You can find show notes

0:27

and background information on wwwsustainnowch

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. Enjoy the show .

0:36

Welcome back to the Sustain Now . I'm

0:39

excited to have Bas , the founder of

0:41

Fairphone , with us today In this

0:43

episode . Bas takes us on the journey of Fairphone with us today . In this episode . Bass takes us on

0:45

the journey of Fairphone from its humble

0:47

beginnings as an awareness campaign

0:50

to running the biggest crowdfunding

0:52

at that time , to its evolution

0:54

into a pioneering company striving

0:57

for a systemic change in the smartphone

0:59

industry . We will explore

1:01

the core values driving Fairphone

1:03

. We

1:12

will explore the core values driving Fairphone , including accessibility , demystifying technology

1:14

and raising awareness about ethical dilemmas within the electronic supply chain . Bas shares

1:17

insight into the cultural transition towards sustainability , emphasizing the

1:19

power of storytelling and an art

1:21

in driving meaningful change . We

1:24

will dive deep into the challenges facing the

1:26

smartphone industry the importance

1:28

of ownership and the right to

1:30

repair , and the necessity for

1:32

companies to disconnect revenue from

1:34

resource consumption for sustainable

1:36

growth . Bas also

1:38

reflects on the personal journey of leadership

1:40

within Fairphone and the vital

1:43

role of recognizing when to pivot

1:45

roles for personal well-being and

1:47

organizational success . Join

1:49

us as Bas shares his optimism for

1:52

humanity capacity to address

1:54

the climate crisis through social and

1:56

cultural transitions . It

1:58

was a very inspiring conversation which

2:00

highlights the challenges to tackle

2:02

and to embrace the opportunities from the

2:05

path to sustainable . Stay

2:07

tuned for an insightful conversation

2:09

filled with entrepreneurial wisdom

2:11

, passion and a vision for

2:13

a more sustainable tomorrow . Let's

2:15

dive in . Thank

2:25

you so much for joining my podcast today

2:27

, na Welcome .

2:28

Oh yeah , Welcome . I'm happy to be here

2:30

.

2:32

Today , actually , we will chat about a technology

2:34

which lies in our hands every day

2:36

A smartphone developed by the brand

2:39

Fairphone , and Fast is the

2:41

founder of the 10-year-old company . The

2:44

question is how can you make a smartphone

2:46

more sustainable , hence more durable ? These

2:49

questions I would like to discuss with

2:51

Bas today . Starting first , like

2:53

you know , I think you've been a founder for

2:55

quite some time and I read some background

2:58

how you actually went there . It's an

3:00

amazing story . So , when you look back

3:02

on your life , what has been your driving force

3:04

to become a founder and develop a sustainable

3:06

phone ?

3:07

Yeah , it's funny you say that it's

3:10

10 years ago . It's

3:12

11 years ago now already that

3:14

we started a company , but definitely actually

3:16

didn't start as a company . We started as a campaign

3:19

and that was in 2011

3:21

. So we campaigned for two years

3:23

and then we decided to do a company

3:25

. I'm saying that because , you know , just

3:27

going back , it has never been my ambition

3:30

to become an entrepreneur . Ah , okay

3:32

. I've

3:34

been a lot of things . I've studied arts

3:36

, you know . I've done art school . I've

3:39

done mechanical engineering . I've been

3:41

in technology for a very long time Innovation

3:45

using innovation , social innovation , using technology

3:47

in the social cultural context , in the media lab , always

3:50

non-profit . And my

3:52

drive has always been how to

3:54

make technology more accessible

3:56

because it's driving a lot of change in the

3:58

social , cultural setting , our

4:00

economy and all that it's like an important

4:02

driver for , for for culture . Yeah

4:05

, I think I always

4:07

wanted to kind of demystify

4:09

technology . I think that already started

4:11

when I was young . I had

4:13

my screwdriver . If I got a Nintendo

4:16

, most of the kids probably would start

4:18

playing the Nintendo . I took the screwdriver to

4:20

see what's inside the Nintendo and

4:23

that drove me to really look at

4:25

you know , where does technology come from

4:27

? How do we use it ? What kind of effects

4:29

has it on society ? But also

4:31

, do we really need to develop the things

4:34

that we develop ? Because sometimes it's also

4:36

, you know , the critical aspect that lacks

4:38

in the way that we see innovation . So that

4:40

, yeah , so that background of

4:42

my curiosity , combined

4:45

with my criticism towards technology

4:47

, drove to start Art Fairphone as

4:49

a company . And why a company ? Because

4:51

at that moment we were campaigning already

4:53

for two years to raise awareness

4:55

around the problems in the supply chain of technology

4:58

, electronics and phones particularly

5:01

. Yeah , we decided that the best

5:03

way to sustain that , also

5:05

economically , was to do it as a

5:07

company and try to create the impact

5:10

from within the system that we

5:12

were trying to change .

5:14

And that's how I became an entrepreneur . By

5:16

accident .

5:17

By accident it's often like that . Well

5:21

, even reluctantly sometimes , I have to

5:23

say .

5:23

That's probably the best entrepreneurs , because they come

5:26

with purpose and with driving

5:28

force to do something . But what ? Has

5:30

been the sparking idea . If

5:32

I'm thinking about 10 years ago , you

5:35

know there was climate . I think it was

5:37

on the horizon , but for many not really

5:39

clear that you know , sustainability

5:41

, etc . It's only developed , I would say , in the

5:43

last five , six , seven years . Really

5:45

, how did you come on the idea that

5:47

you say , okay , this is something we need to change

5:49

. We need to build mobile

5:52

phones differently .

5:53

Yeah , I think that goes back to the core

5:56

theory of change , as we call that within

5:59

Fairphone and our company . Right , a

6:01

lot of the impact startups or impact companies

6:03

, they start because they want

6:05

to create a systemic change and

6:08

not just , you know , to make a phone or

6:11

not just to make a more sustainable phone

6:13

. We really use that to change

6:15

the system . And I think you know , if you look at our

6:17

theory of change , it's really raising awareness

6:20

, and campaigning is at the core of

6:22

what we do , because there are many problems

6:24

attached to to you know , how technology is made

6:27

, specifically phones . But the problem

6:29

is , if you raise awareness and we , when

6:31

we started fair phone with that thought , you know

6:33

, raising awareness around the conflict , minerals and

6:35

also the labor conditions , sky chain

6:37

and the throwaway culture . It's always good

6:39

to have a like a bad guy or to have a solution , and we didn't have , you know , we didn't

6:42

have either of that . So then the next step and that didn't have , you know

6:44

we didn't have either of that . So then the next step and

6:46

that is that is , you know , that is our theory

6:48

. We say , well , we , we , we show

6:50

how you can do things in a different way , either

6:53

by making multiple phones by doing different

6:55

ways of mining your minerals , but then

6:57

you're not there yet . You also want to show

6:59

that with those things that you do , that

7:02

it's scalable and then you can create a

7:04

bigger impact . So that is , that is , I think , why

7:06

we started at the point where there

7:08

was not awareness around the problem , but

7:10

the problem existed . There is child

7:13

labor in the supply chains of electronics and there's

7:15

all in all supply chains and what we see with food

7:17

, what we see with cosmetics , you know , on

7:19

sustainable cosmetics , effect rate , bananas

7:21

, all these things . You know they started in the 70s , 80s

7:23

. But you have the same problems

7:25

in electronics . It's just not visible

7:28

. And we've closed technology

7:30

as kind of a black box . And I had

7:32

been working in that context already for a while

7:34

. You know open source software development

7:36

. I've been very , very connected with

7:38

what they call the

7:40

makers movement . I think that drove

7:43

very , you know , to do this at a very

7:45

interesting moment where there was no awareness

7:47

yet . But people recognize

7:50

the problems . So once we started opening

7:52

that box of all the problems in the supply chain , people

7:55

oh shit , really , even

7:57

the name , right , fair phone . What is what is unfair

7:59

about phones , right ? So why

8:01

are you fair and others not , and that that just

8:03

makes you think . Then you know that that awareness

8:05

, we try to channel that towards actually

8:08

taking action . And for us that was a product , so

8:10

in a way that was a perfect way to

8:12

you know it was . It was

8:14

also in a marketing sense , very

8:16

nice , because your campaigning

8:19

was was also the the , the promotion

8:22

of the solution , which was the products , and

8:24

then the products showed that things could be done

8:26

differently and we could inspire the industry

8:28

to also join us . So it was a great

8:30

moment in that sense that it wasn't yet on the

8:32

radar because it was picked up by CNN and Al

8:35

Jazeera and all these guys when we started surfacing

8:37

the problems because nobody was talking about it , but it

8:39

is a big issue .

8:41

So , if I understand you right , first you campaigned

8:43

about the problems like

8:46

what kind of minerals you use , how it's getting extracted

8:48

, how actually waste is getting

8:50

produced , and I think the number is enormous

8:53

what kind of electronic waste we

8:55

throw away every year , I think

8:57

. I forgot how big it was , it was insane

9:00

and how much value we actually throw

9:02

away of minerals and materials

9:05

every year .

9:05

Yeah , I think they always compare it with

9:07

Eiffel Towers , right .

9:09

How many Eiffel Towers Exactly ? I forgot how many . Yeah

9:14

, it's a lot exactly . And it's

9:16

actually that you have such a value that

9:18

you throw away every year

9:20

not thinking about that you can actually

9:22

reuse it . I think it's really astonishing

9:25

. So you used like kind of the campaigning

9:27

of the problem to create a momentum

9:30

for that product , but it was not intentional

9:32

. Is that kind of what you're saying ?

9:34

Yeah , actually funny thing is that , like I

9:36

said , we started as a campaign and with

9:38

my open source , open hardware kind of framework

9:41

thinking framework , I thought we're going

9:43

to go to Congo because the

9:46

easiest part is the phone . Why ? Because

9:48

phone is already being made . The hard

9:50

part is to understand what

9:54

I would like to call the dark matter behind

9:56

the phones . What makes a

9:58

product is basically the sociocultural-economical

10:00

context in which we work together

10:03

to create something that we would never be able to do

10:05

as an individual , which is in itself

10:07

already amazing . We are able to make stuff

10:10

from the soil , from the ground , from

10:12

minerals together

10:14

, and we would never be able

10:16

to even understand the complexity of a

10:18

phone as an individual , and still those projects

10:20

are made . So that beautiful kind of

10:22

aspect was also the starting point of surfacing

10:24

. Projects are made , so that beautiful kind of aspect was also the starting point

10:27

of surfacing . And so it was not just only the . You know , the showing the

10:29

problems was also showing the beauty of

10:31

, of what we are capable of together . And

10:33

we used that also

10:36

to create like a platform for

10:38

people to to talk about it . And

10:40

once people started talking and talking , what

10:42

you saw is that people were like , okay , great

10:44

, you know your fair phone and you say you're going to

10:46

build a Fairphone was more like a campaign

10:49

idea to put it into reality . And

10:54

then people really started asking when is that phone

10:56

available ? And then we started

10:58

. I remember Miguel was my intern . He's

11:00

still working at Fairphone as well , so he called the co-founder of Fairphone . But Miguel was just collecting

11:02

the email addresses of people that were interested intern is still working at Fairphone as well . So you call the co-founder of Fairphone

11:05

, but Miguel was just collecting the email addresses

11:07

of people that were interested and we were hitting like

11:09

the 30 40 000 people already

11:11

that sat and we just put a button there

11:14

if Fairphone would be available , would you buy

11:16

it , register here . And people started registering

11:18

. And then we thought , well , you know we

11:21

have to build it now we're out of campaigning

11:23

. We're out of campaigning money , right ? We're out of

11:25

the subsidies , so

11:27

we need to survive on our own . So

11:29

what do you do ? Well , you set up a

11:31

crowdfunding and you start selling phones

11:34

to create a sustainable

11:36

company as well . And I think that it was not

11:38

just because of the financial situation . The

11:40

main reason was because we saw that

11:42

there was that momentum to be able to go one

11:44

step further than raising awareness

11:47

, but actually offering a solution . Yeah

11:49

, and that's when we started the crowdfunding campaign

11:51

.

11:52

And I think that crowdfunding campaign was

11:54

one of the largest , I think at that time right

11:56

.

11:58

We've never talked about it because we didn't want to make

12:00

it about the money at the time . Again

12:02

, what we did is we didn't use a platform or anything

12:04

. We

12:10

just put a button on the website . We , we had a , an e-shop like this . Uh , you know , at the time

12:12

you could just like , I think , like shopify or these kind of big platforms . You just had a shop

12:14

with all the payment providers , everything connected

12:16

to it , already like an etsy , and

12:19

we put the phone , the phone there , and we

12:21

said this is a fair phone and and you can , if

12:24

you pay €325 now , we

12:26

will ship it in half a year probably . And

12:30

people started paying and what happened

12:32

is that within like two , three months , we

12:34

had €7.5 million on our bank account

12:36

and the non-existing

12:39

phones , because we ran

12:41

out of the non-existing phones , because we were

12:43

only going to use 25,000 and

12:46

the non-existing phones were being sold on

12:48

eBay for double the price . So it was a madness

12:50

, right , but we knew that , wow , this is really

12:52

. There is a demand

12:55

for ethical electronics

12:57

, for sustainable electronics . And

13:00

that was also the moment where I turned

13:02

from an artist , engineer

13:05

, designer . I'd been everything

13:07

except an entrepreneur and

13:11

, yeah , it made me like I was at a

13:13

point that I wanted to pay back everybody their money

13:15

Because I thought , like , let's not

13:17

let somebody else do it . We made a point that the campaign

13:19

is successful . People just

13:22

told me , like you have to do this , you

13:24

will never get a chance like this and people that bought

13:26

that phone . They don't expect you to

13:28

do it , perfect , right away , but they

13:30

show that they are committed to what

13:33

you want and that is how

13:35

the crowdfunding started . We

13:41

were at the time .

13:42

I think , at least in Europe , the biggest crowdfunding ever Without

13:44

using a crowdfunding platform .

13:45

Yeah , so it wasn't registered . And we did

13:47

another crowdfunding later for 10

13:49

million , another 2.5 million , so I

13:51

found that I crowdfunded more than 20 million in

13:54

the first couple of years of Fairphone and

14:00

that was also great because we were able to build an electronics company , a capital heavy

14:02

company , without any venture capital or investments

14:04

that was needed . So we

14:06

were very independent and that was great

14:09

to be able to build our own impact

14:11

model and goals and everything

14:13

and keep the brand really sticking

14:16

to that mission .

14:18

I want to come back to the crowdfunding later

14:20

on , but now what strived

14:22

me before what you just said is it's

14:25

fascinating that we can build a phone

14:27

which is so complex , with

14:29

multiple suppliers , people

14:32

, resources in place , that we can

14:34

actually create that together . And

14:36

I would say that that's kind of a connection . You

14:38

know you create connection between people

14:40

, resources , materials , etc . To

14:43

build a product which you know will connect

14:45

other people . And I think one of

14:47

the funny things what I read

14:49

in another interview is that you know you

14:52

actually avoided having your own phone

14:54

.

14:55

That's who you read that .

14:56

Yeah , and I thought that was brilliant like building

14:58

a phone but avoiding having your own phone . I thought you read that yeah , and I thought that was brilliant like building a phone

15:00

but avoiding having your own phone . So

15:03

my question is what does connectivity

15:06

mean to you ?

15:07

It's an interesting one . Just

15:09

to go back to the phone , I did

15:11

like technology , right , I did go into

15:13

technology a lot and I

15:15

knew a bit about phones and how they work

15:18

. But I've always avoided

15:20

phones because , yeah , I thought

15:22

if I go into a phone I'll

15:24

get addicted to this stuff because I'm

15:27

going to be connected all the time , that's

15:29

what I'm going to do and I'm not connected anymore

15:32

with the actual environment I'm

15:34

in . So I was afraid I

15:36

already saw my work addiction

15:38

with emails and everything and

15:41

I thought , well , let's keep that phone out of my

15:43

life as long as possible , because I'm pretty

15:45

sure it will have a negative impact from

15:47

all the stuff it does as well . So

15:49

I think it took me up to Fairphone 2

15:51

to actually have my own phone . I

15:53

used my Fairphone 1 as an MP3 player and

15:56

there was no SIM card in there . Ever , as

16:00

a CEO of a phone company , you need to have your own

16:02

product to show right . So I had it . And

16:05

when I really switched was

16:07

when they tore down

16:09

at the central stations

16:11

in Holland , when they tore down all the phone booths because

16:14

I didn't have any chance anymore to call

16:17

my partner if I'd be late and

16:19

she had to pick up the kids from the daycare because

16:21

I couldn't so and

16:23

I was fed up asking people their phone to

16:26

be able to reach her . So in

16:28

that sense , you know , it brought me something

16:30

as well , the connectivity when you talk

16:32

about it . But yeah , from a symbolic

16:34

point of view , I think what is why

16:37

we chose the phone

16:39

is because it's such a beautiful

16:41

paradox . Right , it's

16:44

the most personal object

16:47

that we have , what used to be cars . They call

16:49

it badge value . You throw your BMW

16:52

key on the table

16:54

and everybody goes , oh wow , you

16:56

know what happens with phones . I think we're getting to the point that

16:58

even that is going to pass , but at that time

17:00

it was really a status symbol , personality

17:03

. You know , I , I , yeah , there's a lot of connect

17:06

with that product in such a weird

17:08

way as an extension of themselves . You know , you get

17:10

panic attacks when they leave the house without . You

17:18

know mobile phone phobia . It's like shit

17:21

, it's a fan when you don't have your phone with you and

17:24

then not in that relationship

17:26

, but not knowing what's happening behind the scenes . Who

17:28

made it ? Where does it come from , all the

17:30

work that goes in ? That is

17:32

an amazing paradox and a lot .

17:34

It's very rich to

17:37

explore as well , even

17:39

from an anthropological , cultural , economical point of view

17:42

and if you look back now , so you

17:44

have it for quite some time now . The phone , how

17:46

do you , how is your relationship now to a phone

17:48

?

17:48

I was able to avoid a lot of things also

17:51

, very , very so what I ? Yeah

17:53

, it took me until like two months ago

17:55

to install WhatsApp on my phone , so

17:57

I still I'm probably

17:59

one of the last to install it , but

18:02

I do have you know , I do use the phone a lot

18:04

and I probably use it too much . On the other

18:07

hand , I also see the benefit of

18:09

it and of course , you know now it's integrated

18:12

in everything . So it's , you know

18:15

, my relationship with the phone . I think is

18:17

quite healthy in that sense that , yeah

18:19

, that I use it for practical

18:21

reasons , but not , you know , I still enjoy

18:24

also the moment and I see , you know

18:26

, being social can be online . I'm

18:28

not saying that you can't have like connections

18:31

online are not useful or

18:33

worth something or valuable , but

18:35

I think I get more value from

18:38

actually meeting people .

18:39

You have kids , right I ?

18:40

have three kids , yeah .

18:41

Yeah , exactly so you know there's a

18:43

lot of discussion right now about phones

18:46

, smartphones with kids , etc . When did

18:48

you give your children a smartphone ?

18:50

Yeah , I think it was Fairphone 3

18:53

, or Fairphone 2 . No , it was Fairphone 2 . I

18:57

have to admit , I also saw them a bit as an

18:59

advertisement opportunity

19:01

.

19:04

How old were they when you gave them one ?

19:06

Yeah , they were . I

19:09

think they were around 13 , 14

19:11

, something like that .

19:12

So actually quite late compared to .

19:14

I don't know how that is .

19:16

I just read about a study . Like 40%

19:18

of all seven-year-olds already have a phone

19:20

.

19:21

Yeah , I think my youngest got the phone before

19:24

that , maybe at primary school

19:26

already . Yeah , so it really depends

19:28

. Yeah , it really depends . My oldest

19:31

kid is already 21 , so what

19:34

does sustainability mean for you personally

19:36

? Yeah , that's a nice

19:39

one , I think . You know , for me

19:41

it's a philosophical matter , right

19:43

, I had this beautiful

19:45

ending slide of a guy

19:48

who was giving a presentation I don't know where anymore , but

19:50

he ended this

19:52

whole presentation about sustainability and everything with

19:54

. Survival is not mandatory , and

19:56

what I really liked about that

19:59

is that I don't think

20:01

nature or ecology

20:03

, whatever , will give a shit about what happens

20:05

, right , because either we go extinct or

20:07

we do this . So sustainability

20:10

to me is a matter of our

20:12

own survival and it's a human

20:14

, more philosophical matter of do

20:17

we want to invest into

20:19

something that's bigger than my own life ? Now

20:21

it's getting more and more . You see

20:23

also the effects in your own life , but sustainability

20:26

has always also been about

20:28

something that's bigger than your

20:30

own life and that

20:32

means that you have to , and

20:34

it's very human to have that kind of problem

20:36

right that you you have to , you know , and it's very human

20:38

to have that kind of problem right , because one of the biggest problem being human dilemma

20:41

is the balance between your self-interest and common interest

20:43

. You know , what's good for me is not always good for everyone

20:45

what's good for everyone . So this , and

20:47

I think we're very well capable of thinking

20:49

about building upon what we've done

20:52

in generations , especially

20:54

when you know in the times that religion , religion

20:56

was very important . We also saw . You

20:58

know that that's that the continuity of time

21:00

and and your own life is is

21:03

part of a bigger thing . And

21:05

the problem now is that we've gone very individualistic

21:08

, very materialistic , and we , we know

21:10

that whole view has become like , okay , what can

21:12

I do in my own time on earth ? And I

21:14

think , I think you know it really comes with a

21:16

lot of cultural trend . You know we need a cultural

21:18

transition to get out of that

21:21

kind of thinking . I think , if you really look and

21:23

there was a quote of guest gus speth he's

21:26

one of the top advisors on

21:28

the ipvc reports and these things and

21:30

and he's been researching the researching

21:32

sustainability for all his life and he said

21:34

, always thought that the biggest

21:37

environmental problems were biodiversity

21:39

loss , global warming , you know that kind of stuff

21:41

, and I thought we could solve

21:43

that with good science , right , but boy was

21:45

I wrong . The biggest top environmental

21:48

problems that we're dealing with are greed , apathy

21:50

, you know , and the likes and

21:52

selfishness . You

21:55

cannot solve that with science . You cannot solve

21:57

that with technology . You cannot solve that with science . You cannot solve that with with technology

21:59

. You cannot solve that with all this , you know , legislation

22:01

, only you need a cultural

22:04

transition for that , and that's why I think of

22:06

sustainability to me is about

22:08

culture , and how do we

22:10

get to a culture of , yeah

22:12

, of , of , of wanting to also

22:15

survive as as , as

22:17

a , as a kind , and I

22:19

think that connection we kind of lost

22:21

. But I'm , I'm hopeful that that you know that

22:23

we can get there , and maybe it's my , my artist

22:25

background speaking there , because I think art has

22:27

also really huge impact

22:29

on , on creating .

22:31

You know that that kind of transition

22:33

, cultural transition that you need in

22:36

order to to , you know , yeah

22:38

, survive so when I , when I hear

22:40

you speaking about it for me , it comes in my

22:42

mind , leaving like a positive

22:45

legacy of your life yeah

22:48

, sure , and I don't want to be inside .

22:49

I'm always , I'm always a bit reluctant

22:52

to , to say to , to be too didactical

22:54

about it , because I I don't . You know

22:56

, a cultural transition doesn't come from

22:59

telling other people how things should be . I

23:01

think we can do that by example and

23:03

we can create stories . Like

23:05

, if you just look at politics , you know

23:07

, in the end , politics is about

23:09

being able to convey a good

23:11

story about the future . Entrepreneurship

23:14

, especially social entrepreneurship

23:17

, is about making people

23:19

believe , or getting people behind

23:22

you , creating a vision or a story

23:24

of something that's not there yet . It's

23:26

about explaining things that , yeah

23:28

, that are about feelings , about value , and

23:30

I think , you know , storytelling in that sense

23:32

is an important element to get to , to

23:35

get to get further , and I , I , yeah

23:37

, I do believe that we get there . And also

23:39

, like I said , so , even the company is

23:42

selling something that's not there yet . That's something

23:44

I've learned . The power of that , the power

23:46

of that story is , is , is huge . Uh

23:48

, we just have to find out the right stories

23:50

in order to , to

23:52

get , to create a collaborative point of thinking

23:55

around survival , because I'm just studying

23:57

other people like you , can't do this because we

24:00

, we won't survive .

24:01

I don't think that's the way how does your yeah

24:03

, you do it . You do , sorry , you do it . It's not the

24:05

only way . The only way , how

24:08

does your life motto fits to that

24:10

? So I was reading it and I was like , if you

24:12

can't open it , you don't own

24:14

it , and I really try to figure out what it means

24:16

.

24:16

But please explain yeah , that goes

24:18

very easy . That goes back to my experience

24:20

as my , you know , as a kid , with the

24:22

screwdriver . Yeah , I , I , you

24:25

know it's , it's . I've . I've had this instance

24:27

where I had my , my son . We're going

24:29

on holiday , the car was fully packed

24:31

, two kids were in the car , one was missing . Everybody

24:34

was ready to go to france and I went into the

24:36

house and bo was , uh , you know , my old kid was

24:38

sobbing . He was crying in the corner of the house with

24:40

his Nintendo in hand . The Nintendo was broken and

24:43

it was quite a stressful moment because the , you

24:45

know , nintendo was the love of his life and

24:47

for me , you know , we keep him busy in the car

24:49

. So I was like shit

24:51

, how are we going to do this ? But look , you know , I have an engineering

24:53

background . So I told , well , I'll fix it

24:55

. I took my screwdriver , screwing , screwing , and at some point

24:58

the the metal dust you know , fell

25:00

out of the screw holes . And if the

25:02

metal dust comes falling out of the screws , you know

25:05

, you screwed up the screws and I found

25:07

out that , and then and you're

25:09

screwed right , you're really screwed if that happens

25:11

. But I found out that nintendo

25:13

does not want me to open that device , so

25:16

what ? They use

25:18

a special kind of screwdriver . So it really

25:20

was symbolic for me around

25:22

why do companies create

25:24

devices where you cannot even

25:26

open it in order to

25:29

fix it ? And I think , if

25:31

you really go back to that cultural

25:33

transition , I think that is needed is that

25:36

need to really re-establish

25:38

a healthy relationship with the products

25:40

that we use . Otherwise you can't expect

25:42

people to use products longer . How

25:44

can you care for a product that you don't give a shit

25:46

about , that you can't even open , that

25:48

you can't own ? And ownership in this sense

25:50

is about not like the property

25:53

side , but really the connection to that product and I think

25:55

symbolically side , but really the connection to that product . And I think

25:57

symbolically it's very important

25:59

to be able to get that screwdriver open of

26:01

the device and feel and explore

26:04

how these products have been

26:06

made and how beautiful it is that we have these

26:08

complex products and the amount of

26:10

effort that went into it .

26:14

So that's where it comes from .

26:16

It is a quote that comes from Very good connected .

26:17

Actually , it comes from a quote that comes from Very good connected actually .

26:19

Yeah , it comes from a quote that

26:21

is from the makers community . Yeah

26:24

, it was a magazine called Megzin and

26:28

it was a maker magazine where they explained

26:30

how to make your own this , on that , on that

26:32

you know all the stuff that you can think about how to make it

26:34

yourself and especially also

26:37

with technology , how to make your robots and

26:39

playing and this and that and their

26:41

motto was if you can't open it , you don't own

26:43

it , because they were already at that

26:45

time and it was when , in the 2000s

26:47

, fighting for the right to repair

26:50

and the right to actually have access

26:52

to the technology that we use so just

26:54

to rephrase it , so for you , you know , like that you can

26:56

actually open a phone , like if you

26:58

take that over to Fairphone .

27:00

If you can open a phone , if you can , you

27:02

know , use the screws , make it open

27:04

and actually exchange elements

27:06

of it and really repair it yourself or

27:08

have the ability to repair , then you actually

27:10

own the product and you can make , make

27:13

it durable . Is that what you think why

27:16

the smartphone industry is broken ? Because

27:18

it's like you don't have the ownership . It's just

27:20

a rental , leasing model

27:22

kind of way that you can lease it

27:24

somewhere from the big companies . You have to give it away

27:26

. You can't really actually do anything with it

27:28

.

27:30

No , I think there's definitely more

27:32

to that . There's a

27:34

system problem in the electronics industry and that's

27:36

also how we approach it . As Fairphone , you

27:39

can make the most repairable phone you want

27:41

and you can make it with all kinds of easy

27:44

exchangeable parts that

27:46

you can use for a very , very long time . But

27:48

if the whole industry is built around short

27:51

cycles , selling as much as possible in

27:53

a very short time , it's very hard

27:55

for a company to survive in that industry . That's for

27:57

sure . But it's also if people don't

27:59

use their phone longer because

28:01

they are pushed

28:04

or also lured

28:06

into buying

28:08

that new shiny model , it

28:10

is going to be a very difficult thing . So

28:12

you can't just make a repairable phone if you

28:14

don't put the context where

28:17

the phones can actually be , where the industry

28:19

is also forced to to , to

28:21

change their way of positioning

28:23

the products and offering support . And

28:26

also you need to , you know , you need to create

28:28

, in a way , a that healthy

28:30

kind of connection with because , yeah

28:32

, with people using the phones and and I think that's

28:34

where again , where storytelling , you know it's very important

28:37

that also showing what we do behind

28:39

the screens and how you

28:41

know how a phone is made . You know

28:43

I told you about the crowdfunding at the time

28:45

that people waited for the phone to be made . We

28:47

were actually showing how the phone was made and

28:49

for them that was like you know , wow , my

28:51

, I see , I see like how

28:53

, how , my , how a product I've never seen

28:55

before , how , how it's made . I see it

28:58

into the whole context of how it comes

29:00

from the ground into this beautiful product

29:02

. And I think all those

29:04

things legislation , making companies move

29:06

, making a product design in a certain way , but

29:08

definitely also the business model that

29:11

you put upon it . Because in

29:13

the end , we know , you get to the sustainability

29:15

philosophical dilemma again . We know

29:18

, as Fairphone , the more phones we

29:20

sell , the

29:22

worse it is for the environment , the

29:24

more phones we produce , sorry . So

29:27

you want to produce as little phones as

29:29

possible . At one side you

29:32

don't want people to buy a phone if they don't

29:34

need it , but on the other side , as a company

29:36

, you need to survive to sell these products

29:39

. So then you know

29:41

, I think sustainability becomes very interesting

29:43

when it becomes a dilemma and a paradox , and

29:46

not so much that win-win everybody

29:48

believes is the only way

29:50

right , because I think win-win is just doing business

29:52

. If sustainability and financial

29:55

pain is just straightforwardly

29:57

a win-win . Great , just

29:59

do it .

29:59

But it becomes interesting when there's a dilemma I

30:02

had the framework founder who's creating

30:04

laptops you know like exactly repairable

30:07

laptops , and he said on

30:09

my podcast I asked him exactly

30:11

about that dilemma and his answer was you

30:13

know ? The answer is we need to half the

30:16

electronic market size . That's

30:19

his ambition . So we need to make the

30:21

market smaller and I think that was a

30:23

very good yeah , I would rephrase

30:26

it maybe a bit into that .

30:28

I think it's a great , it's a very

30:30

great , provocative way of

30:32

putting it . I just think that it's

30:35

not necessarily about the market

30:37

in terms of the revenues

30:39

. It's about how do

30:42

you disconnect the way you

30:44

make money from the use

30:47

of resources . And if you're able to halve

30:49

that or even more , we

30:52

could even make a phone , using it for

30:54

10 years and offering a service to upgrade

30:56

your software after five years and

30:58

keeping it longer . It's in the benefit of people

31:00

because it costs you less and it's

31:02

in the benefit of the company to actually

31:04

make money on

31:07

the software side instead of making a new phone

31:09

. So I think it forces

31:11

you also to think about new ways

31:13

of making money , and that makes it so interesting . When

31:16

you have these conflicting kind of things

31:18

, they always look like a paradox , a dilemma

31:20

. But once you go into it and you

31:22

start mapping your company around

31:25

those dilemmas and

31:27

facts and look at your business model

31:29

, you might find out that there are other

31:31

ways to make money in a way that's much

31:34

more sustainable . As long as you challenge

31:36

yourself to look at these solutions and

31:38

not just find out that you're in a linear

31:40

system , you can't get out coming now to fairphone

31:43

a little bit more in detail .

31:45

So after 10 years , I think you're now

31:47

at fairphone 5 I think that was the newest

31:49

term which came out . Where is the company's

31:51

standing right now ?

31:53

yeah , it's a profitable company , which is great

31:55

in this industry . We sold over half a million

31:58

phones in our total lifetime . We sell around

32:00

, you know , over 100 000 phones

32:02

a year . It's around 150

32:04

people working at Fairphone . We have a revenue of

32:06

around 50 million and we are

32:08

recognized by the industry and

32:10

all the ratings and everything

32:12

as the most sustainable phone

32:15

and also the most sustainable company

32:17

, because I think that's an important distinction , because there's

32:19

so many people that ask me what makes Fairphone different

32:22

from Apple if they make a sustainable

32:24

phone . Making a sustainable

32:26

product doesn't make you sustainable or

32:28

an impact-driven company , and I've seen

32:30

that happening . If

32:35

you have five Teslas in one family

32:37

, you have five sustainable products in

32:39

your family Great , but what does

32:41

Tesla do to prevent that family

32:43

from buying so many cars ? I

32:46

wonder , right , I wonder . I've been in in

32:48

calls with with with the big guys

32:50

and I always wonder like , how much effort

32:52

are they putting into making sure

32:55

that they don't make products

32:57

that are not needed ?

32:58

it's gonna make a follow-up because it's a

33:00

very nice point about the sustainability

33:03

. What makes you actually different is that you actually

33:05

are sustainable as a company . So

33:08

what are you doing then , let's say , different

33:10

. Or what are you focusing as a company

33:12

on sustainability besides the phone ?

33:14

You asked me where the company is right now . Right

33:16

, so we're at that point that

33:18

we actually are still yeah

33:20

, we're doing well , we're doing okay

33:22

, but it's still a small company in this industry

33:24

and we need to grow . So that's what

33:26

I wanted to conclude on that one . Our

33:29

ambition is really to grow the company , not

33:31

just because we want to be bigger , but

33:33

we know we can make more impact . Sure , but

33:35

we also are vulnerable when you stay small

33:37

in this industry . You know you're playing

33:40

with the . We're playing in the most

33:42

, probably one

33:44

of the most competitive industries in in this , uh , in this

33:46

world . So , yeah , so so

33:48

that is , we're doing good , but we need to

33:50

grow even further to to

33:52

survive in this industry

33:54

and how do you want to solve that paradox ?

33:56

and you said once is the business model

33:59

that you actually can , you know , earn

34:01

money as well with other

34:03

parts . I think I saw the subscription model

34:05

you're doing with repairments , etc

34:07

. So how , how do you

34:09

, if you would say like this is the

34:11

three steps plan of fairphone

34:14

and saying like this is how we want to grow sustainability

34:16

, can you share that ? Like , what are the

34:18

three points you think you need to focus in future

34:20

to actually make it happen to grow and

34:23

be sustainable at the same time ?

34:25

yeah , yeah , I think we do that also

34:27

through through setting conflicting kpis

34:29

into the company . Quite proud of

34:31

that , because one of the things that we've done is

34:34

that we embrace the dilemma of this . One

34:36

of the kpis is sell as many phones as possible

34:38

. The other kpi and and also from

34:40

a revenue point of view , make make as much revenue as

34:42

possible . It's great . We show it as a market . You want to grow

34:45

, we need that . So

34:47

it's not an ambition in itself to be the biggest , but

34:49

it's something we need . So we set that as a KPI . It

34:52

also shows impact . But the other KPI is

34:54

that we say we want people to use their phone

34:56

as long as possible . And I can tell

34:58

you that is kind of a bomb in the head

35:00

of a salesperson , because people

35:03

that sell products and salespeople

35:05

at Fairphone what you normally do as a salesperson

35:08

is you sell to your current customers

35:10

. It's the easiest . If there's a new

35:12

product , you throw it out to all the customers

35:14

saying we have a new product , please buy it . We

35:16

can't do that at Fairphone because we just

35:18

want to sell to people that

35:21

really need that phone , because we want them to use the

35:23

phone as long as possible . So

35:31

that's where we also embrace the consequences of that , and

35:33

it pushes us to go into innovations like pair phone as a service

35:35

, because we wanted to try out . Can we make

35:37

money on a

35:39

different way , where we align

35:42

longevity with the way we make

35:44

money ? A service model does that , because

35:46

the longer you use your phone , you get

35:48

a monthly pay and you want people

35:50

to use the phone as long as possible because it costs you money

35:53

. If you have to make a new one , I

35:55

can tell you it didn't work right , it

35:57

didn't work as we wanted . But

35:59

that's why you have to , because we would

36:01

have never done this test if

36:04

we hadn't had that dilemma in the company

36:06

. So how do we want to grow ? So

36:08

your question is we want to grow in a way that

36:10

we try to find out how to

36:12

disconnect our business model as much

36:14

as possible from the user resources while

36:17

also increasing our market

36:20

, and that is super difficult . But

36:22

it's a challenge that we took upon us and

36:25

, yeah , we're doing that . I mean we do grow

36:28

every year and we show

36:30

that we actually have people

36:32

keep their phone twice as long , which

36:34

reduces the footprint of the phone

36:37

with more than 30% . We've done a lifecycle

36:39

assessment on it really external one , they looked at it . We've done a lifecycle assessment on

36:41

it really external one , they looked at it . It

36:43

is ridiculous that if you use the phone twice

36:45

as long that

36:47

you have such a positive impact there's

36:56

no use of . You might even say , just focus on longevity and

36:59

then you have that huge win . So that is the way that we want to grow and

37:01

that involves these kind of dilemmas and you can say

37:03

, well , we have the solution for it . I don't

37:05

. I don't have the solution to

37:08

that dilemma . The only solution I see

37:10

is to make it a part of

37:12

the operating system

37:15

, the thinking of your company

37:17

, so that you are challenged

37:19

to innovate in a way

37:21

that it fits with the future .

37:25

Where are you available right now ? Are you in the whole europe ? Available

37:27

already or even more like ? Is where ? What markets are you in

37:29

?

37:29

oh , we are in the whole of europe , but our main

37:32

markets are , yeah , germany

37:34

. Almost half of our funds go to germany is

37:36

, yeah , something we found out when we did the crowdfunding

37:38

. We didn't expect it , but but germany

37:40

, france , holland and the uk

37:42

, and and Switzerland is funny

37:45

, because they have , I think , the highest fair

37:47

fund penetration . It's a small market

37:49

but there's a lot of fair

37:51

funds that are sold as well in Switzerland . But

37:55

, yeah , those are the main markets , but we only do Europe , not

37:58

the US . We're

38:00

available in Taiwan , okay

38:02

why Taiwan ? Because our team

38:04

is there , our partners are there production

38:07

partners and we wanted to yeah , we

38:09

wanted to see if we also could create

38:11

value , yeah , in the markets

38:14

that we're actually also producing .

38:17

Wow , so quite a journey you have been doing

38:19

and I think it's very interesting that you are so

38:22

openly about the paradox of

38:24

sustainable growth . And

38:26

, you know , is that win-win situation really

38:28

possible to be super

38:30

sustainable in the same time ? On

38:32

super growth , you started as well like

38:35

I think now it's new , it's new product

38:37

lines , right , like is , is . Is that a

38:39

way you want to expand ?

38:40

Yeah , that's one of

38:43

the ways to also diversify

38:47

, to spread

38:49

the risk a bit . If you have only one product

38:51

We've had ones that we had

38:53

two components missing and

38:55

if there's a component shortage in the industry

38:58

, you're lost in line . We're a small company Not

39:01

anymore , by the way , because they

39:03

love us . It's really . It's

39:05

one of the advantages of being in that company that

39:08

even though you're small , you see , in the industry

39:10

people want you to succeed as well , because

39:12

they find it very interesting . It's

39:14

also a way to create revenue

39:16

without having to sell more phones to people

39:18

that already have a phone , so you can actually

39:20

sell additional products and you can . It's

39:23

a's . It's a very business way

39:25

, a business way of looking at it , and it's also , in

39:27

the end , it's . It's also impact right

39:29

, because we , even with the headphones

39:31

, like the ones I'm wearing now they're fully repairable

39:34

have the same ethical supply chain

39:36

that we use for for the phones and

39:38

it's you know , it's also novel

39:41

. We have in-ear headphones , thatear headphones

39:43

that you can just replace the battery within

39:46

half a minute , and in the

39:48

headphone industry that was also

39:50

a bomb , like

39:52

, wait a minute . There goes our business

39:54

model if you start doing that . So

39:57

I think it's nice to have

39:59

an impact also in these accessories market

40:01

for two reasons . One , it's good for

40:03

revenues for us , but it's also to really drive

40:07

change in a bigger industry .

40:09

So you know you're doing this now 11

40:11

years , and I think what

40:13

I learned from you is that you actually stepped down

40:15

as a CEO in 2018

40:17

, right ?

40:18

Yeah , I did . Yeah , yeah , I'm still on the board , so I'm

40:20

still involved .

40:25

But as a CEO it was . Yeah , I hit

40:27

the end of the wall

40:29

. Yeah , you've

40:32

been very open in questions about your mental health struggle and think health struggle

40:34

. I think that's very impressive and my hat's to you that you're

40:36

doing that . If you think about the

40:38

last 11 years and if you

40:41

could roll back and saying like , okay

40:43

, if I have to restart it again

40:46

, what would you do differently

40:48

?

40:48

When I get this question , I always say , well , I would do it . If

40:51

the question is like , would you do it again , I'd say yes

40:53

. Or would you do it , yeah , would you do it

40:55

if you could do it ? If

40:58

you were at the start of it , yes , I'd do it , but

41:08

I wouldn't do it another time because I don't have the energy anymore . I would definitely do

41:10

it differently , but I think the fact that I was like kind of naive also made it that we we got into

41:12

you know that it was not just me but everybody involved and I think the first team

41:15

. Nobody had made a phone ever before and was

41:17

. It was also an advantage for us , but it came

41:19

with a cost in terms of personal health

41:21

, because you know , when you do something you've never

41:23

done before and you do that every day and

41:26

you do that long enough , it wears you out

41:28

. You can't fall back on how you're used

41:30

to the things you

41:37

can't fall back on . Experience is maybe

41:40

, yeah , starting with a as

41:42

a startup , also with several founders who

41:44

are all in the board

41:46

, right , so that you're not the only one with

41:49

responsibility . I took the responsibility as

41:51

a CEO from the start

41:53

, not CEO , but I mean as

41:55

a director of the company for the first five

41:58

, six years alone , up to like a revenue

42:00

of like 20 , 30 million and

42:03

with all the you know , all the cash

42:05

flow problems , all the risks that come with

42:08

everything and also the loneliness that comes with

42:10

it . I have learned that it

42:12

, yeah , that that would have helped

42:14

if I had shared that responsibility

42:16

in a way . I don't know exactly

42:18

the several ways of doing that , but that was

42:20

one of the things that I I would definitely

42:22

do different , no-transcript

42:41

balance

42:47

. I think it's . It's . It's an illusion , I think it's . I . I think if you , if you will not have a very healthy

42:49

work-life balance , I think , right , maybe I'm doing it all wrong

42:51

, but I've have never experienced any people

42:53

who are in startups that that have

42:56

a have that in a healthy way . But

42:58

what you can do is prepare yourself for

43:00

that and build in also

43:02

more strict moments where you can

43:04

ventilate with other people I don't say like

43:07

maybe maybe you should have entrepreneurs

43:09

anonymous to groups

43:11

to talk about all the all , yeah

43:13

, all the the things that that make

43:16

you lonely and it's actually the eo

43:18

organization .

43:19

Do you know that entrepreneur organization ? Oh

43:21

there is yeah , well , I think , I think I would .

43:23

I would have been helped actually

43:25

to to be more part of that . But the problem

43:27

is , I can do .

43:28

I have the time for it and it's

43:30

such pressure .

43:30

you you're flying a plane while building

43:33

it and you don't know , like , how to fly , and that

43:35

is , it is scary and it just gets

43:37

to your health and maybe I should have stopped earlier

43:39

and it's also a thing that I could have done

43:41

as a CEO , or maybe you know

43:43

there's all kinds of things , but I definitely

43:45

went too far . And

43:48

it brings me to . You asked me for a quote as well

43:50

. I love that quote from Dan Horovich

43:52

. He wrote a book . It's

43:54

called the Hard Things , about Hard Things , and

43:57

it's about this right , it's about that track

43:59

you're in as a startup founder

44:01

or something . That's the ball that starts rolling

44:04

and if it goes well , it gets scary , and

44:06

if it goes bad , it gets also scary

44:08

. So it just gets more

44:10

and more pressure , whatever it does

44:13

. And he said , as a startup CEO

44:15

, I slept like a baby . I

44:17

woke up every two hours and cried and

44:20

cried . I think it really

44:22

shows that in

44:26

a certain way , you're going to be torn by private

44:28

life , by family and work

44:30

, this and that , and just be

44:32

prepared for it . I

44:36

think trying to avoid it

44:38

is going to be very hard , but

44:40

trying to give yourself

44:42

support in that is very important

44:45

and I think the naivety

44:48

, naivety , that's everything what's

44:50

this ?

44:50

yeah , I think that's also very important

44:52

to go into . So you're , you're

44:55

, you're half a pair , but you're also quite

44:57

naive about what it actually means .

44:59

Otherwise , I think it's the same with kids no one will get

45:01

kids , oh

45:04

yeah yeah

45:07

, and then and then and then , when

45:09

, when there's good times , you say , well , it's not that

45:11

bad , right , we

45:13

forget easily , we forget easily , but it's

45:15

but , but , yeah , it's for me , for

45:18

me , uh , what one of the things . But so this is , it

45:20

was not just my mental health , why I ? I said

45:22

you know it's enough , I need to stop this . You know , I always

45:24

compare a bit with football

45:26

. Right , if you have 10 little kids playing

45:28

football , they run after the ball and

45:30

they all want to score . I'm

45:33

a bit like that . I love that , I just want to . You know

45:35

the action , I am an actionist . It's

45:37

also the entrepreneurial side of me . You

45:49

just run up to the ball . You want to score . At a certain point I had to be in position . And if you're in position , well , you know it gets

45:51

a bit like why can't I be where the action is right ? You have to stay and wait until

45:53

you , you can be part of it . And once you get into a bigger company and it grows

45:55

further , the company becomes like

45:57

you being on the sidelines when you're

45:59

in the board . It's really felt like it , like you

46:01

know , there's the action is in and everything you

46:03

can scream from the sidelines yeah

46:05

, don't do that . When the shit hits the

46:07

fan , you can

46:10

solve it and and maybe I've done it

46:12

wrong , but it felt like that . So for

46:14

me , for me , that that was , yeah

46:17

, also the point where I said , okay , let's

46:19

not . You know , this is not the the

46:21

phase of the company where I'd like to be in as

46:24

a CEO . I'd love to be at the sideline

46:26

now as a supervisory

46:28

board member . So I am , in a way

46:30

, at the sideline , but it's a totally different

46:32

role and I love that because

46:34

I also can . You know , it's so great to

46:36

see that company grow and

46:39

also even the problems I can actually

46:41

learn from it without you know

46:43

that response of I can't breathe

46:46

because you're in the shit . And

46:49

now , when you look at it from a distance , it's

46:51

very valuable to learn from

46:53

how other people are doing it . And actually

46:55

I found it , I think , the other

46:57

way around . But

47:01

, yeah , it's a nice journey and I'm happy I

47:03

took that step and , like we said , it was not just

47:05

my health , but it was also not the phase

47:08

that I would add most value to the company

47:10

as a CEO .

47:12

And I think that's a big learning to

47:14

know what role to play , as

47:16

you nicely said , in a team and

47:18

to recognize that when does the role

47:20

have to shift to something else . I think

47:22

that's a very very nice

47:24

way to say it .

47:26

Yeah , it's important and

47:28

I think there's other ways . Most

47:30

of the CEOs , especially tech companies

47:32

, are being involuntarily

47:34

leave the company , especially

47:37

when there's investors . I read

47:39

something because I was really like this

47:41

is stupid . You have this image of Zuckerberg

47:44

and this guy and Musk as

47:47

a founder . You have to stay on forever . It's

47:50

really bullshit . If you look at the numbers

47:52

, there's only one out of five founders

47:55

CEOs that are still CEO after five years

47:57

in the company and probably three

47:59

of those four that left are being sacked

48:02

or whatever

48:04

you want to call it . So

48:07

it's also like it's just

48:09

not the reality and I think it's

48:11

important to know that

48:14

things might be different than they

48:16

look and that imposter

48:18

syndrome that you're feeling I

48:22

had that at least a lot especially

48:24

when you're being involved with and and

48:26

uh , you know , and your company's burning

48:28

. That it's not weird to

48:30

have that and that's you know , and

48:33

a lot of people have that , and I think that is

48:35

that that's a valuable thing to know when

48:37

you're in it . That's yeah , that you

48:39

can .

48:39

You can talk about that nice , and I think it's very

48:41

important to be so open about

48:43

it that other side of the

48:45

glory of entrepreneurship is

48:48

also the hardship which comes with

48:50

working hard , but also mental hardship . I

48:53

really like that , how you

48:55

were open and describe it about it . I have

48:57

one last question , because I think I could ask

49:00

a lot of more questions , but I have one last question which I

49:02

ask everyone what

49:09

?

49:09

makes you confident that we will solve the climate crisis . Oh , if it makes you confident

49:11

, well , first of all , does make me confident . Yeah , I think

49:13

so . I'm . I'm an altruist , right . I believe in the

49:16

, in the social capabilities of people

49:18

and I , I truly do . I see

49:20

how much beautiful things we can , and it

49:22

goes back to , also , we are able to make such a beautiful

49:25

, complex product as a phone . We

49:28

should be able to solve that

49:30

problem , right , because we

49:33

have the ingenuity to do so . And

49:35

, in the end , the economic system which is at the core

49:37

of the problem , I believe , is created

49:40

by humans and it's more of a social

49:42

. People think it's more of a social , you know , people think it's

49:44

a . It's like , uh , it's like a financial or almost

49:46

a physics kind of system

49:48

that we put in place , but it's , it's . It's basically

49:50

, you know , a social construct

49:53

so we can change that . I

49:55

wonder if we are , are , yeah

49:57

, fast enough to do that ? But if we're not , then

49:59

you know there's , there's all kinds of shit

50:01

that can happen that will help us to reset

50:03

where we need to be and unfortunately

50:06

, in history , when you look at it , most

50:08

of the resets have been done after there's

50:10

been a global world war . Do

50:12

we let it come that far ? I hope

50:14

not . How do we have the

50:16

means and the tools and the

50:19

mindset , hopefully , to do

50:21

that ? I think we are quite close to be able

50:23

to do it without getting

50:25

into a very disastrous situation

50:28

which is going to be very painful for a lot of people

50:30

but will create also

50:33

a new start to a new world

50:35

. But yeah , it might be

50:37

a very black ending for you , but

50:39

I'd like to go back to that quote , that

50:41

quote that you , that , that

50:43

we , we also discussed what

50:45

I've mentioned before , and that is survival

50:48

is not mandatory . We

50:50

need to want it and I

50:52

believe that we can get to that . But

50:55

you know , I I also believe that that

50:57

involves a sociocultural transition

51:00

, more than a technological

51:02

solution or a legislation

51:05

or you know whatever kind of stuff

51:07

we can come up with , which all post-capitalist

51:10

, neoliberal kind of same same

51:12

nice .

51:13

I think I will leave that to that light nice

51:16

, a little bit dark , but still nice

51:18

. Last quote , and

51:20

thank you so much for joining my podcast

51:23

. It was really amazing speaking with you .

51:25

All right , I was happy to do

51:27

it . Thank you for inviting me .

51:31

Thank you for joining today's episode . You

51:33

can find the show notes , background materials

51:36

and contact details of our guests on

51:38

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51:41

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51:43

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51:45

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51:48

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51:51

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