0:01

Hub and Spoke. Audio

0:04

Collective. I

0:10

have to tell you something. Have

0:14

you started watching it? Something insane.

0:17

The three body problem? It's true.

0:22

What about all of us? This

0:27

Netflix sci-fi series is based on

0:29

a trilogy of novels by Chinese

0:31

writer Liu Zixing. There's already

0:34

been a Chinese TV adaptation,

0:36

but now comes the mega

0:38

lavish American one that internationalizes

0:41

the original. That

0:43

original, the source material, was almost

0:45

completely set in China. The Netflix

0:47

series still has a Chinese backstory,

0:50

but much of the action takes place in the

0:52

UK. With a multi-ethnic

0:54

and multi-national cast. They

0:57

are coming, and there's nothing

0:59

you can do to stop them. This

1:04

show has very much been translated

1:06

for the screen. In fact, it's

1:09

a translation of a

1:12

translation. The first translation? That

1:15

was when the novel appeared in English. This

1:19

is the 2015 Hugo Sci-Fi Awards. Dr.

1:22

Langrin, could you announce the

1:24

winner? The category is Best Novel. And

1:27

Hugo goes to the Three Body Problem.

1:32

If you couldn't quite make that out, it's

1:34

because the guy making the announcement is a

1:36

long way away. In the International Space Station.

1:39

And no surprise, in

1:41

light of the subject of this podcast, the

1:44

award goes to the Three Body Problem. To

1:47

receive it is someone who's there

1:49

on behalf of Liu Sashin, the

1:51

writer, the novel's English translator, and

1:53

someone who's a key player in

1:55

the rise of Chinese Sci-Fi, Ken

1:58

Liu. So we're

2:00

kind of witnessing a historical night tonight.

2:03

We've had two translated works when Hugh goes,

2:06

I don't know if that's happened before, but I do

2:09

know that this is the first translated novel ever to

2:11

win one. So.

2:18

Ken Liu goes on to make his thanks to a bunch

2:20

of people, and then he pivots. Okay,

2:23

so that's me, and now I'm gonna read

2:25

the author's remarks, and it's very emotional and

2:27

a little bit embarrassing for me because, as

2:30

you will hear, he praises me, his remarks.

2:34

It's very not Chinese to

2:36

read, praise about yourself, but

2:38

as a translator, I sort of had the duty to

2:40

read what he wrote. So. So

2:44

I'm going to do so. All

2:47

right. Good evening, ladies and

2:49

gentlemen. Winning this award is a great

2:52

honor to me, and the event itself looks

2:54

like science fiction. As a

2:56

faithful science fiction fan, I've read many

2:58

Hugo Award winners, many of which

3:00

have been translated and published in China, while

3:03

others I had to read in English, in

3:06

English original. For

3:08

me, the Hugo Award is a vision in the distance.

3:11

I see it's light, but it has never

3:13

occurred to me that I might have something to do with it.

3:16

And then a spaceship appeared, which

3:18

carried my novel across the vast space between

3:20

two languages and cultures, and flew

3:22

right into this bright vision. The

3:25

spaceship is Ken Liu. With

3:27

its profound knowledge of Eastern Western cultures, and

3:29

through his heart and industrious work, he

3:32

has made a translation of this novel a work

3:34

of near perfection. As

3:36

a non-English- Wow, that really is high

3:38

praise. No wonder Liu feels a little

3:40

cringy reading it out to

3:43

that audience. And this book, already

3:45

popular, is really about to take

3:47

off, with the help of Barack

3:49

Obama, who raves about it. Also,

3:52

matters Mark Zuckerberg, and many

3:54

others. So

3:58

what's the significance of this- when

4:00

a major sci-fi award gives its top

4:03

prize for the first time to

4:05

a translated novel. There's a

4:07

book that wasn't written in English, a

4:10

book that presents a vision of the

4:12

future. Is it

4:14

a future that's specific to that non-English

4:16

culture, to that language it's originally written

4:19

in? Are

4:21

the fears and obsessions of

4:23

the writer and the characters

4:25

specific to that culture, or

4:27

is it humanity in general? From

4:34

Quiet Juice and the Linguistic Society of

4:36

America, this is a subtitle. Stories

4:39

about languages and the people who speak them. In

4:42

this episode, the sci-fi

4:44

of another language. The Three

4:46

Body Problem

4:58

Lydia Imano-Liedu first put me on to the Three

5:00

Body Problem. She'd read

5:02

the entire trilogy, and she had questions

5:04

about how these books became so popular

5:06

all over the world. So, she went

5:09

to see someone who knows all about this. Wellesley

5:12

College Professor of Chinese Literature

5:14

Ming-Wei Song In

5:17

2006, Ming-Wei Song

5:19

gets a manuscript from a

5:21

friend. It's the

5:23

story of humanity's potentially dooming

5:26

encounter with this technologically

5:28

and otherwise advanced alien

5:31

civilization. So, Professor

5:33

Ming-Wei Song dives into the Three

5:35

Body Problem, he starts reading it,

5:37

and he's just blown away. I

5:40

was at that time already totally convinced

5:43

that the Chinese science fiction was

5:45

as good as the science

5:48

fiction in any country. And

5:50

over the next few

5:52

years, Liu Sishen's trilogy

5:54

becomes huge. When the

5:56

first volume was published in China, there

5:59

were four books. fans who love it, but

6:02

the sale was not that good. When

6:05

the second volume was published, it

6:07

began to get more readers.

6:10

And when the third volume was

6:13

published, by that time, it's

6:15

like a national sensation. Ming

6:17

Wei Song is really excited, not

6:19

just by this, but by a

6:21

whole lot of other Chinese sci-fi

6:23

he sees coming out of China

6:25

around the same time. So

6:28

he starts promoting Chinese sci-fi

6:30

at academic conferences. He's inviting

6:32

Chinese sci-fi authors to events

6:34

where they'll get exposure. He

6:37

even gets involved with translation projects

6:39

to bring Chinese sci-fi to the

6:42

US. But he knows that the

6:44

attention the genre was getting from him and a

6:46

handful of other academics in the early 2000s was

6:49

not enough to elevate its profile

6:52

to an international phenomenon. You

6:54

need Obama. You

6:56

need Mark Zugerman. And

6:59

you need Ken Liu. Ken

7:01

Liu. That's the translator. Yeah,

7:04

that's right. And almost everyone

7:06

I spoke with, Patrick, agreed

7:08

that Ken Liu is the

7:10

key to changing the profile

7:12

of Chinese sci-fi, both in

7:14

China and internationally. I

7:16

met Ken Liu at the sci-fi

7:19

literature conference, ReaderCon. He

7:21

was one of the guests of honor, and

7:23

he agreed to give me a few minutes

7:25

between his last panel and his dinner. Ken

7:28

and I sat across from each other at

7:30

the dining table in his Marriott suite, just

7:32

a few floors up from all the ReaderCon

7:34

action. And I have to say, Patrick,

7:36

I was a little nervous to meet Ken because

7:39

he has this reputation for

7:41

being intimidatingly smart and productive.

7:44

But people also say he's very

7:46

kind and approachable. I mean,

7:48

just to give you a taste, here's the

7:50

booklet that all ReaderCon attendees got, and here

7:53

are just some headlines. There are

7:55

a few articles written about Ken Liu, if you want to read some

7:57

of them. Oh, right, yeah. Here's the first one. It says, where

7:59

do I go? as Ken Liu, Find the

8:01

Time. Yup. This is an

8:03

article focused entirely on where Ken Liu finds the time,

8:05

to do all of the many things that he does,

8:08

yes. Then there's another one that

8:10

says, phenomenally good at not being

8:12

nice. Yup. Wow. So

8:15

that just gives you a taste of what this

8:17

community thinks about Ken Liu. So

8:19

when I sat down with him, I asked him

8:21

this question that he says he gets asked

8:24

very frequently. And that

8:27

question is, what is Chinese sci-fi?

8:29

How is it different from American

8:31

sci-fi? Yeah, I gotta say, I would ask

8:33

that question myself. And I hate to disappoint

8:35

you, Patrick, but he says there

8:38

isn't really a straight answer to that

8:40

question. It's really complicated. The

8:43

basic conflict, if there's anything unique

8:45

about China, it says China

8:47

has undergone modernization in

8:50

the last three decades that took the

8:52

West something like 300 years to go

8:54

through. There's a lot of concern

8:57

Ken told me about the idea of

8:59

things spinning out of control.

9:02

The pace of change in China

9:04

is just accelerating too fast, and

9:06

that the economic and social

9:09

gaps there are just

9:11

getting wider and wider. And

9:13

those are all themes that you'll find in

9:15

Chinese sci-fi today. I think

9:17

most of my fellow Ernlephone

9:20

readers didn't really know

9:22

there was a large body of interesting sci-fi

9:24

being written in China, and that we're

9:27

exploring very similar topics as the rest of

9:29

us, but from a different perspective, from

9:31

a different approach. Ken doesn't

9:33

actually have any formal training

9:35

in translation, though he

9:37

does have a law degree from

9:39

Harvard, he has a background

9:42

in computer programming, and

9:44

he is a critically

9:46

acclaimed novelist. No wonder

9:48

people ask where he gets the time.

9:51

Lydia tells me that Ken got

9:53

into translating almost by accident. He

9:55

translated a friend's story from Chinese

9:57

into English just as a favour.

10:00

The translation won an award, and

10:02

after that, translation became a regular

10:04

side gig for Cannes. His

10:07

only condition when he translated something was he

10:09

had to like it. There's a

10:11

story about a future where humans

10:13

have been able to change their

10:15

perception of time to increase productivity.

10:18

A story about a city that's a machine.

10:21

There are stories about physics, about love,

10:23

about pain, all sorts of

10:25

stories. It was because

10:27

of that body of work that

10:29

Ken Liu was eventually approached to

10:31

translate the three-body problem. That

10:34

really is amazing that they would get

10:36

a guy who's not trained as a

10:38

translator taking on this book that

10:40

is starting to make some seriously big waves.

10:43

Yeah, and I think what makes

10:45

Ken particularly good at translating is

10:48

that he's Chinese and

10:50

he's American, and he straddles

10:52

both cultures. Also, he's

10:54

a lawyer, so he was able

10:57

to walk writers through the submissions

10:59

process to help them get legal

11:01

rights to their work. It

11:04

was almost like he was their agent, right? All

11:07

of that makes a huge difference for

11:09

writers. Let me give you an

11:11

example. There's this one writer, Tang Fei. She

11:14

got a Ken Liu translation back in 2013. Her

11:18

story, Call Girl, was then

11:20

published in Apex Magazine. It

11:23

was only after that that she

11:26

started getting published in China. Wait

11:29

a minute. She doesn't get

11:31

published in her own native

11:33

language until her story is

11:35

translated and published in English.

11:39

I think I understand the power of Ken Liu

11:41

now. Hello. Hi. Hello.

11:47

I actually called up Tang

11:49

Fei recently to talk to

11:51

her about this. I

11:54

don't speak Chinese, and she doesn't

11:56

really feel comfortable speaking English, so

11:59

her friend translated for us. Based

12:01

on this publishing experience, she thinks that

12:03

it's kind of important

12:14

to have your stories translated

12:16

and introduced to people from

12:18

other countries because it represents

12:20

a kind of international acknowledgement.

12:23

So Patrick, this is obviously troubling

12:25

for some people. The fact that

12:27

it takes having your work published

12:29

in the US or winning a

12:32

big award here to somehow become

12:34

more relevant in China, I mean

12:36

it's eventually what happened with three-body

12:38

problem. You know, it was big

12:40

in China but it didn't get

12:42

really really big until it won

12:44

the Hugo. And I asked Teng

12:46

Fei if she thought this was

12:48

a problem for Chinese sci-fi. She

12:55

said no. She thinks that this

12:57

is kind of like giving the story

12:59

a second life because it means you

13:01

can rethink what is embedded in this

13:04

story. What is she talking

13:06

about there? Is she talking about like how

13:08

the story gets translated or how

13:10

the audience is reading it? I think

13:13

she's talking about both because of course when you

13:15

get a translation, your story

13:17

is exposed to a whole new

13:19

audience but the translation process itself

13:22

also changes the story.

13:25

Let me introduce you to another person

13:27

here because at this point it's not

13:30

just Ken Liu doing translations of Chinese

13:32

sci-fi. Crystal Huff

13:34

is an editor for the

13:37

Beijing-based organization Future Affairs Administration

13:41

and they work on editing translations

13:43

between Chinese and English.

13:46

So Crystal told me about a situation

13:48

they were in recently where they had

13:50

to go back to the Chinese author

13:52

and point something out to him. This

13:54

is what Crystal said to the author.

14:00

genders of, you know, there are only

14:02

men and only cisgender men and only

14:04

heterosexual cisgender men, as far as I

14:07

can tell in this story. Can

14:09

we talk about this?

14:12

Like, I know that in

14:14

some cultures, like, it's not necessarily

14:16

noticeable if a story is entirely

14:19

all straight cisgender men, but

14:21

it is noticeable in my culture, particularly right

14:24

now. And it is noticeable

14:26

for me as someone who is

14:28

not a straight cisgender

14:30

man. Wow. That's quite

14:32

something to say to a writer, to

14:34

get the writer to make such a

14:37

fundamental change, like changing

14:39

the gender of the characters.

14:42

It is a big change. And

14:44

in this case, the author was

14:46

okay with Crystal making that change

14:48

in the story. And it's

14:50

a difficult one because there are a lot of

14:52

cultural things there, and trying to

14:55

take those nuances in

14:57

and respect them and also make

15:00

sure that the story that

15:02

is the result

15:04

of the translation process is

15:06

something that people from my

15:08

culture would be excited about

15:10

is something that is a

15:13

hard line to walk. Do

15:22

you ever wonder if there's some

15:24

sort of cultural value lost in

15:26

trying to bring up these things,

15:29

make these changes? Oh,

15:31

absolutely. I worry that I am

15:33

Americanizing things or that I am

15:35

crystallizing things. I worry that

15:38

I am, that I

15:40

am inserting myself into a situation where

15:42

I shouldn't be. And

15:44

that's something Crystal has heard from writers because

15:47

they've been in a situation several times where

15:49

they've asked the writer to make a change to

15:52

make the story work for an American audience. And

15:54

the writer has said, no, you

15:57

know, making changes like that, changing the

15:59

gender of characters. obviously changes the

16:01

story a lot and I think

16:03

that translation process and the reworking

16:05

process is part of the reason

16:07

why Chinese sci-fi has done well

16:09

here. How

16:17

long has Chinese sci-fi been around? Did

16:20

it even exist on the Chairman Mao? That's

16:24

coming up in a minute. How

16:30

long has it been? How long

16:32

has it been? How long has

16:34

it been? John

17:00

Quincy Adams and the surprisingly

17:03

saucy Warren G. Harding. Winston

17:06

Churchill's possibly nude, probably

17:08

apocryphal White House encounter

17:10

with the ghost of

17:12

Abraham Lincoln. There

17:15

are fabulous episodes on all these

17:17

which you're going to love however

17:19

much or little like me you

17:21

know about America's presidents. Your

17:24

hosts are Howard and Jessica Dory. Howard's

17:27

a history blogger. Jessica has a

17:29

very nice line in irreverence. They

17:32

know how to tell a well-researched story

17:34

and they have great guests too. I'm

17:36

working my way through the entire back

17:38

catalogue of plodding through the presidents

17:40

and I hope it never ends.

17:43

Listen and subscribe wherever you're listening

17:46

to this. The

17:50

history of sci-fi in China, it's markedly different

17:53

from say the history of sci-fi in America.

17:55

Ming Wei Song, the

17:57

Wellesley professor, he told Lydia that

17:59

modern- sci-fi beginnings in China

18:01

coincided with the last days

18:04

of the country's final dynasty,

18:06

the Qing dynasty. It

18:08

was right around the start of the 20th century. It

18:11

was like the darkest moment

18:14

in Chinese history. The

18:16

last decade of the imperial China

18:19

before revolution was about to

18:22

break out. That

18:24

looming revolution in 1911

18:26

came down to what many saw as

18:28

a failure by the Qing dynasty, a

18:32

failure to modernize China and to

18:34

guard against foreign powers. And

18:36

the people, writers, reformers,

18:39

began to envision all kinds

18:42

of futures. Well,

18:48

you can either have a better

18:50

political system or very,

18:53

very advanced technological

18:56

progress. That's what

18:58

we call the origin of the

19:00

Chinese science fiction. In those

19:03

early days, sci-fi was mostly

19:05

a utopian vision of what

19:07

China could become if it

19:09

went through the social and technological

19:11

modernization that writers

19:14

and reformists felt it

19:16

so desperately needed. They

19:18

envisioned a future China that could be

19:20

a world power, a highly

19:23

educated country that the world is

19:25

paying close attention to, a leader

19:27

in everything from new weapons to new

19:29

medicines, and a nation

19:31

with a multi-party system. The

19:38

fortunes of sci-fi really ebbed and

19:40

flowed during the 20th century. At

19:43

times, Chinese governments embraced

19:45

its idealism and utopianism

19:47

and packaged it into

19:50

propaganda. At other

19:52

times, it was suppressed because

19:54

its foreign influence was supposedly

19:57

polluting Chinese culture. Of

20:00

course Patrick, I'm fast forwarding through

20:02

a lot of history here, but

20:04

by the early 2000s, homegrown

20:07

science fiction really wasn't

20:09

a big part of the culture. There

20:12

certainly were writers who were

20:14

writing sci-fi, but they were mostly

20:16

sharing their work online. There was

20:18

really only one sci-fi magazine at

20:21

the time, it still exists today

20:23

by the way, but

20:25

that was about to change. And

20:28

the change came dramatically as Liu

20:31

Sichin and other sci-fi writers got

20:33

book contracts with major publishers and

20:35

Chinese readers really took them up.

20:38

And then the rest of the

20:40

world did with that explosion of

20:42

translations, not just into English, but

20:44

into dozens of languages. Now

20:47

the Chinese writers have won these awards and

20:50

all of this international fame. Where

21:07

are we at? What's the scene like

21:09

back in China for the sci-fi? It's

21:12

definitely a much bigger part

21:14

of the mainstream today and there's

21:16

a ton of commercial interest in

21:19

the genre as well. I

21:21

spoke about this with Regina Kangyu Wang.

21:24

She's with a company called StoryCom,

21:26

which is based in Beijing and

21:28

works to find and commercialize Chinese

21:30

sci-fi. Our life is

21:33

science fiction now because more and

21:35

more of the technology

21:38

have been achieved and they come to

21:40

real life. So it's

21:43

easier for people to relate to

21:45

this kind of change. So

21:48

we think science fiction

21:50

will be the future

21:53

popular genre

21:55

in not only literature

21:57

but also movies, games.

22:00

and other media platforms. Regina

22:02

told me there are a

22:04

lot more publications, magazine, publishing

22:06

houses geared towards sci-fi now.

22:09

You're more likely to find big

22:11

sci-fi events in China. China put

22:14

in a bid to host a

22:16

future Worldcon. That's the largest sci-fi

22:18

conference. But Regina also told

22:20

me there's definitely a bubble here. And

22:23

as for the future of Chinese sci-fi,

22:25

who knows? And

22:27

Patrick, there's one other thing. And

22:29

that's sci-fi's relationship with

22:32

the Chinese government. Right.

22:37

I mean, in the past it seemed like

22:39

the government couldn't really make up its mind.

22:42

Like, did they want to co-op

22:44

sci-fi as a way of talking,

22:47

you know, utopian way about the future?

22:49

Or do they

22:51

want to suppress it because it could

22:53

be a codified critique? To

22:57

answer this question, I think it's important

22:59

to think about where China is today

23:01

and where it sees itself in the

23:03

future. You know, obviously there are a

23:05

lot of eyes on China today as

23:07

this rise in global power. Its

23:10

economy is only second to that of the

23:12

US and it's catching up. Chinese

23:14

president Xi Jinping has this ambitious

23:16

plan to make China a global

23:19

power by 2050. He

23:21

wants his country to be a leader

23:23

in next generation technologies like

23:25

artificial intelligence. And

23:27

one thing I heard from Americans

23:30

who have been exposed to the

23:32

Chinese sci-fi community is how present

23:34

Chinese government officials are at all

23:36

things sci-fi in China, including at

23:38

events that are hosted there. There

23:41

really seems to be a belief that the

23:44

genre can be tapped into to make

23:46

that vision for a new future

23:48

China come true. At the

23:50

same time there's an

23:53

interesting tension here because A

23:55

lot of Chinese sci-fic seems to be

23:57

a warning about where China is today.

24:00

Heading What it means for

24:02

China to be developing so

24:04

quickly that what is it

24:06

costs the comes with that

24:08

sort of progress. Or.

24:16

How did the twenty so five

24:18

riders get around that censorship rules

24:20

in China to go to be

24:22

riders who test amount because that

24:24

they are after all worried about

24:26

the idea of where the country

24:28

my beheaded. Writers know

24:30

that there are some things you

24:32

just can't say, right? Like this

24:34

lovely professor mainly son told me

24:36

that predicting the future of Hong

24:38

Kong for example, He won't

24:41

pass. You can't do that.

24:43

But now everything is so

24:45

black and white cells and

24:47

some things that are too risky

24:49

to say explicitly The raiders

24:51

mates suggest implicitly their messages

24:53

that. Are somewhat obscure because

24:55

raiders are playing this little dance

24:58

that sensors and just Amy Patrick.

25:00

Just imagine having to translate that

25:02

and the translators the responsibility to

25:04

the reader to help them understand

25:07

what the writers saying but also

25:09

their responsibility to the rider you

25:11

know and not making obvious the

25:13

thing that the writer didn't want

25:16

to make obvious in the first

25:18

place. That's something that can loot

25:20

deals with a lot. When.

25:22

They when they engaging be so

25:24

cold hidden messages they're easily codable

25:27

by attorneys reader, and they're intended

25:29

to be easily dakota bovine readers.

25:31

So for me, the challenges in

25:33

those cases? how do I make

25:36

the totally messes explicit enough for

25:38

an anglophone reader to be able

25:40

to decode it without. Being.

25:42

Embedded in the context, give me

25:44

a couple examples of assistance. I

25:48

see and unfortunately the reason as you're in

25:50

China would they say is you know what

25:52

I'm talking about I know what I'm talking

25:54

about that actually. Making. It explicit

25:56

and talking about it as well as as

25:58

in trouble and that's. basically what some of

26:00

these are about. So

26:03

Patrick, the literary community is

26:05

very protective of itself. And

26:07

that's why Ken couldn't give me

26:10

any specific examples of the types

26:12

of hidden messages that he struggles

26:14

to translate. And that

26:17

self-protection is especially necessary

26:19

now that Chinese sci-fi

26:22

is receiving attention internationally.

26:25

Because for a long

26:27

time, before Chinese sci-fi was

26:30

getting the attention that it's getting today, I

26:32

think it was easier for writers to get

26:34

away with the sort of commentary

26:36

that might get them in trouble today. It

26:39

is true that a lot

26:42

of Chinese sci-fi isn't about

26:44

China. Just like

26:46

we don't expect an American sci-fi

26:48

author to write exclusively about America,

26:51

the same is true for China. And

26:53

that's the point that Ken Liu wanted

26:56

me to walk away with from our

26:58

conversation. I think the big danger is to

27:00

say, when we read a Chinese

27:03

science fiction story, it's about censorship. We say,

27:05

oh, it's just about China's censorship. It's about

27:07

how China is a very dystopic place. Or

27:09

we read a story about authoritarianism. We say,

27:11

oh, this is very much about China's political

27:13

system. But I would say that the warning

27:15

is that's very dangerous to think that it's

27:18

only limited to China. The

27:20

kind of conflicts and forces and

27:23

darkness that Chinese writers are writing

27:25

about are, in fact, dangers everywhere.

27:28

And it's much more interesting and fruitful

27:31

to not view these as somehow uniquely

27:33

Chinese, but rather as warnings to all

27:35

of us. OK, I get

27:37

that point. There's no way that

27:40

any literature that wants to have

27:42

itself considered seriously should

27:44

just be reduced to allegorical

27:46

interpretation. The idea is that they

27:48

kind of speak to everybody beyond borders. And that's

27:51

the point of literature. But I've got

27:53

to say that it would be foolish

27:56

simply not to consider the context.

27:58

I mean, how can we do that? Can we

28:00

walk away from the fact that. These

28:03

writers are Chinese. They have lived

28:05

of sudden time in a certain

28:07

place and thus gotta be reflected

28:10

in one way or another in

28:12

what they've written. I

28:14

think they would. I'll say that.

28:16

Their upbringing and the fact

28:19

that they're living in China

28:21

today say much influences. Their.

28:23

Writing and their work. But.

28:27

I think. Can we

28:29

use planes? That. Particularly.

28:32

Science Six Cents is not

28:34

just about one culture one

28:37

race, but rather manatee at

28:39

large. I understand

28:41

your skepticism. But I

28:43

think that's a point that can be

28:45

applied, not just to tie nice and

28:47

Six and that American Science fiction and

28:50

Germans and six And and all kinds

28:52

of sensitive and. Video

28:58

him on. Alito is a

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