Episode Transcript
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to our table thank you it's an honor
2:50
then if you've never done anything like this
2:52
before together that's really nice
2:54
thank you for saying yes nice
3:02
i like it we have made you a brunch
3:05
because this is the earliest one we've ever done
3:08
it's 11 o'clock uh so
3:10
we've made you american pancakes just means
3:12
they're thick and fluffy really really soft
3:14
scrambled eggs with chives and conse
3:17
tomatoes with chili creamed onions and
3:19
garlic some berries here
3:21
and crispy bacon and mushrooms and
3:23
maple syrup so you can mixy
3:26
matchy she really goes for
3:28
it with breakfast stuff yeah i like
3:30
to kind of exercise this muscle in a
3:32
while breakfast they're
3:36
lovely so no mum any suggestions
3:38
on like like would would one have all
3:41
of this on my i'm i'm just gonna
3:43
have eggs and mushrooms she's very much what
3:45
she's really going at is why have you
3:47
made sweet things and savory things at the same
3:49
time she doesn't really please i think it's i
3:51
want them to contaminate i love sweet and savory
3:53
so i'll do it together i think they go
3:55
together oh i'll do it in chess i'll start
3:58
with the savory and then i'll like I
4:00
wanted to do it. Yeah. I'm
4:05
having pancakes, bacon and a bit
4:07
of maple syrup and possibly a couple of berries.
4:10
That's the winner. That is the winner. That is what you
4:12
did to me. Yeah. This is what
4:14
you always come to. Oh, are we a pancake man? But
4:16
I love, I normally love pancakes with bacon.
4:19
I'll put a couple of soshes on
4:21
it with fruit, blueberries. Yes. And then
4:23
I'll make sure it's both. No
4:26
soshes each other. Soshes in
4:29
berries. Soshes in berries.
4:31
Soshes in berries. Soshes in berries. Soshes
4:33
in berries. Soshes in berries. Let
4:36
me ask you this then. We're very cosmopolitan
4:38
then. Richie, would you
4:40
have steak and like
4:43
a piece of sea bass on the same plate? Would you serve
4:45
the first? I'd serve the first. I probably would. I'd
4:48
serve the first. I'd like that. That's a good
4:50
man, Katie. That is nice. That's a good man. That's
4:52
a good menu. I'd like to have a few things
4:54
off the menu because I'll get a bit of a
4:56
sous- Me too, because I like to have
4:58
a little bit and then another little different set up.
5:01
There you go. And then another little different
5:03
structure and order. Yeah. No.
5:06
Do you know what else? I think you do, that I find really alarming. We
5:23
like to get our little blue carrier bag of snacks
5:25
on the shop for the evening and he
5:27
eats the chocolate first, then the crisp.
5:29
Oh, never. And I'm not going to
5:31
go first. I'm never going to go first. No, but I have
5:33
a little bit of chocolate and a crisp and a chocolate and
5:36
a crisp. I'm back again. I'll mix it up because I like
5:38
the savoury and sweet. Which
5:41
is really weird to your teeth because they're
5:43
already savoury and then you're putting melted sweets
5:45
stuff. Can I honestly? Do
5:48
you put your chocolate in the fridge? No,
5:50
I can't have hard chocolate. No,
5:52
no, it's the same with cakes and things like that.
5:56
I can't have a cold cake. I have to have
5:58
it in room temperature. We put our
6:01
chocolate biscuits in the fridge. Freezing? In
6:03
the freezer, yeah. No. No. No.
6:07
No. No. No, it's just
6:09
a lot of things. No.
6:11
No. When we started
6:13
freezing the grapes, because we were like, oh, I like
6:16
that. We were like, we're going to quit chocolate and
6:18
freezing grapes is just the same replacement and we'll eat
6:20
those. No. Well, that's a
6:22
little sweet snack. That's why we're here. Yeah. It's
6:24
not the same thing, but it's not chocolate. No, someone is
6:27
probably like, Craig David taught me that. Well, freezing
6:29
grapes. I went to his house once for an
6:31
interview and he had bowls of chocolate everywhere. And
6:33
I said, how come you've got bowls of chocolate
6:35
everywhere? He said, because if it's everywhere, I don't
6:37
want to eat it. Really? And
6:40
then he brought out what he does. He was just loads
6:42
of frozen grapes. So I was like, okay, crazy. Yeah,
6:44
but it's not the same. No, it is
6:46
kind of Craig David. Craig David, sorry.
6:48
Lying. Whatever date is when it's Tuesday
6:50
or Wednesday, whatever day we're doing. Not
6:53
a one face. But where did you find
6:55
each other? How did you meet? It was so, this
6:57
is how long ago it was. It was BBM. Do
7:00
you remember? Blackberry. Blackberry messenger. Oh,
7:02
I didn't know what you were talking about. I was like,
7:04
what? I don't think you had a Blackberry. BBM was basically
7:06
the beginning of WhatsApp, wasn't it? It was like instant.
7:08
Yeah, or the old MSN. Like, that's how it progressed.
7:10
So it was a while ago. How long was it?
7:13
How long? What was it? It was the
7:15
Olympics. Do you remember? Yeah,
7:19
it was 2012. It was 12 years ago now. Wow. So
7:22
my friend was dating his friend, but it was like casual.
7:25
And then you asked for my BBM pin.
7:28
Oh, I'm a mid-nauties love kid. What's your
7:30
BBM? I'm not giving him my pin. I
7:33
will give it to him. He's quite nice. Pin
7:35
worthy. And at the time, where were you
7:37
both at in your life? I was a
7:40
builder then. Yeah. I was
7:42
doing a build. Yeah. Did you just hit it
7:44
around here? Yeah, in Essex, just down the road. Yeah. I
7:46
was like, what's your pin? I was like, what's your pin? I
7:48
was like, what's your pin? I was like, what's your pin? I'm not giving
7:50
him my pin. I
7:55
grew up in Loudoun. I grew up in Loudoun, yeah. Did you know who
7:58
Kate was? time
8:00
right yeah I was. So were you
8:02
playing that bit cool? To be fair no
8:04
I didn't if I'm on issue I knew I knew
8:06
a little bit because what happened to
8:08
it at the time when it all come out
8:10
because it was all in the papers etc but
8:12
I was so into my football things like that
8:15
I didn't really I went on social media I
8:17
went on none of that really I didn't read no
8:19
newspapers anything like that so I just took
8:21
it with Pincher sort of oh yeah it's a girl
8:24
that's had a bad accident yeah and that that was
8:26
as far as I went. Was that quite nice for
8:28
you Casey that you didn't know loads of
8:30
stuff about you and yeah I think so
8:32
and my career was different back then I'd
8:35
made sort of like observational documentaries and
8:37
it was funny because we got talking
8:39
and I was just about to go to America to
8:42
make a stem cell documentary and I was going to
8:44
be away for like three months so
8:46
I kind of said to him I'm going away
8:48
but it's not like he approached me romantically
8:50
really I think it was more like friends
8:53
yeah at the beginning and then we had this high
8:55
school relationship where we spoke every night on
8:57
the phone while I was away oh
8:59
it was like time difference for us both and
9:02
then I would wake up and I'd fallen
9:04
asleep on the phones and it was just
9:06
like pen pals it was just like mates
9:08
then I came back from America and I
9:10
thought oh he's a good-looking guy who probably
9:13
has met someone else and not really said
9:15
that to me and then annoyingly
9:17
I had to have an unplanned operation in
9:19
my nose and I had to have a rib removed
9:21
and I was gonna need a walking stick and
9:23
I was like this is not sexy is
9:30
when you're shaving the upper five actually
9:35
said to you I was like look actually this is
9:37
probably a bad time in my life to meet someone
9:39
so you should go and live your life cuz you're
9:41
so young and just leave it and
9:43
then you were like no everything
9:46
that could go wrong basically
9:55
went wrong because I had to have the
9:58
tissue in my nose stretched with this thing called
10:00
an osmosis expander, which is like a grain
10:02
of rice that when it touches moisture it
10:04
stretches and then it stretches tissue. Mine ripped
10:06
through my nose and made like a big
10:08
hole in my nose. So I was like,
10:10
oh my God, I've met this guy, I've
10:13
got a hole in my nose, the
10:15
flouriest walking stick I could find with black crystals on.
10:17
You had an insect that had something up for
10:19
you. But you came to visit me, didn't
10:21
you, in hospital? Before that, that was when the
10:24
first two months I actually come to my brother's
10:26
wedding, didn't I? Oh God, in Greece. And
10:28
that's when your nose split out from his in
10:31
Greece. It was hot. So I've only known her
10:33
two months. Yeah. I've been introduced
10:35
to the family. You went to Greece, you did the
10:37
trip. Yeah, she come with me because my brother's wedding
10:39
in Greece. Yeah. But then within
10:41
two, three days, they burst, their nose. Oh,
10:43
it happened in Greece. Yeah, because you have
10:46
to have the expander in for like six months.
10:48
Right. So before you have a skin
10:50
graft. Yeah. You poor thing. Were
10:52
you scared? Were you freaked out? Well, it was quite
10:54
early on with us. So I just thought, do you
10:56
know what? I'd rather this ended because it's too stressful
10:58
and it's not really what young people do when they
11:00
date. This is like when you're married to
11:02
someone and you're old and you look after each other, you
11:05
know, and it was like skipping a relationship. You
11:07
could always keep doing it the other way around. Yeah,
11:09
that's a couple of decades. You know, you seem like
11:11
two young love birds who have just started dating. Yeah.
11:14
I'm like, you're starting now. Yeah. Yeah.
11:17
I suppose the upside of that, which is possibly
11:19
an odd way to put it, is that you must
11:21
have felt very safe with him. This is what I
11:23
was thinking. Yeah. So he's that enduring at
11:25
the beginning of a relationship. I don't know.
11:28
Most women I know. I don't know if men feel the same
11:30
way, but definitely for female friends, it's
11:32
always about feeling safe with, like, you know, emotionally
11:34
safe. You know what I mean? And if someone's
11:37
going to keep coming back when you're going through
11:39
all that stuff, you must think, no, this one's
11:41
a proper actual, I mean, Keeper
11:43
sounds ridiculous because it's beyond that, but
11:45
there's proper deep connection. Yeah. And
11:48
so earlier, it was also the days of blockbusters.
11:50
Like that was our thing we used to walk,
11:52
because I lived in Chippewa. Yeah. Blockbusters still around
11:54
in 2012. Yeah. It was quite a
11:56
bit. It was exactly like that. It was actually a bit of a
11:58
surprise. And
12:02
we would walk to, I lived in Hammersmith and we'd
12:04
walk to Chis at High Road to Blockbusters and
12:06
I remember it got really bad with my nose but
12:09
it was like an open purple hole and I was
12:11
limping because of my wrist and I said to him,
12:13
look, I know we normally go to Blockbusters but if
12:15
you go to Blockbusters with me now, everyone's going to
12:17
stare and it's probably going to be embarrassing for
12:19
you. You go to Blockbusters, I'll wait here.
12:22
And then you were like, if you don't come,
12:24
I'm not going to rent the video. So how
12:26
did things change in your life then, Kitty, when
12:28
this became a real relationship? Did
12:31
it change the way you approached everything, having that kind
12:33
of... It was quite cringe
12:35
what we did because we were paranoid about
12:37
like, well, you're not really in that world
12:39
and you didn't really want to be. Yeah.
12:42
So we told everyone a fake name, do you remember
12:44
that? What of your boyfriend? Who
12:47
told everyone his name was James, which
12:49
is not really very secretive because that's your
12:51
middle name. So moving into
12:53
that world, you had trepidation
12:55
about it, like being with somebody who
12:57
was like, you know, has a platform and
13:00
is visible really on TV and all of that.
13:02
Did you have real trepidation about that? I was
13:04
so naive at the start, because I
13:06
didn't like I said, I didn't have no social
13:08
media. I weren't in that world at all. So
13:11
I didn't really have a vision or I
13:13
didn't really have a thought of what to expect really.
13:15
I was literally going in with a blank canvas. That's
13:17
quite good, maybe. Yeah, so that was better. So I
13:19
didn't have no perception of what it's going to be
13:21
like. What about the juice to treat that was? We
13:25
read that you know, Jason Bay
13:27
or yeah, yeah, I keep thinking I'm going to do that
13:29
and then chickening out. How
13:32
hard is it juicing for like five
13:34
days and training seven? Yeah. And you
13:36
walked into the wall. You
13:38
can go for seven days. We just said, we don't
13:40
have a day. So we and it was
13:42
like a press thing where they were going to leave
13:45
be journalists there, but we didn't realise until we landed
13:47
in Portugal that there were journalists as well. And we'd
13:49
never been like you never went to red carpet events.
13:51
We never got paparazzi together. I used to go to
13:53
work things on my own with my sister and
13:56
we told everyone his name was James. So
13:58
and the other people there. lovely Beverly
14:00
Knight and her husband. Oh
14:02
yeah, I love him.
14:05
So then she was there, some other,
14:07
we met JB, Chloe. You
14:10
love JB from JLS? Yes
14:13
I do. They were really nice.
14:15
So we were in this really lovely group
14:18
of really nice people but a couple of
14:20
people that wrote for like Hello Mag and
14:22
OK Mag. So you write with the press?
14:24
Yeah. So they call Beth Knight's husband James
14:26
1 and you James 2. Oh I've
14:29
got it, my room. What do we
14:32
call master James? It's
14:34
not me. It's not actually your name.
14:36
He's not there anyway because he's
14:38
never been away with journalists. And
14:42
then they're doing like five or five football, bearing
14:44
in mind he's not eaten for like four days. James,
14:46
pass the book. James, he's flanking everybody. James,
14:50
I'm called James, you know, sorry.
14:57
I tried to use my middle name once when I was
14:59
a kid which is Denise. I'm called Andrew Denise Margarete
15:01
and I just hate being called Andrea because no
15:03
one could ever remember it. Exactly the same thing happened.
15:05
People go Denise, Denise! I was like oh, Denise, no.
15:07
And last thing I want to say is my name's
15:10
not Denise. I
15:12
don't see where that really is. It's not my name. It
15:15
was one of those lies that we were too far
15:17
in but we regretted and we were like this doesn't make
15:19
you private or anonymous in any way. It doesn't
15:21
make you the wrong name. So
15:24
after that trip did we go back? Beth
15:26
Knight, still call she James. No! She
15:29
does. She knows. She knows now though,
15:31
doesn't she? She does. She knows now.
15:33
I don't know. Beverly Knight for the
15:35
record, his name is Richard. I
15:38
heard me saying it. One
16:00
thing that really interests me about you, Katie,
16:02
is that you turned such
16:05
adversity into quite
16:08
powerful advocacy and real
16:10
activism. You know, there's a million people on
16:12
social media who kind of
16:14
say, you know, mother, activist, and they
16:17
just mean they shout at people on social media. But you
16:19
actually do some really interesting work
16:21
and quite brave and powerful work. And
16:23
actually listening to just your story together,
16:25
I'm really getting the sense that you
16:27
are so determined. You're a very forceful
16:30
determined woman, but you are, aren't you?
16:32
You must be. I was stubborn growing
16:34
up. Yeah. Yeah. How did you make
16:36
that bridge? Because that's a big bridge.
16:39
Um, I feel like all
16:41
of us in our lives search
16:43
for our why. And, you know, I
16:45
feel like it's more common to get
16:47
your why more towards the end of
16:49
your life, actually. And I suppose you never
16:51
find it on a sort of mediocre day
16:54
when everything's going well. No purpose, right? Yeah.
16:56
Yeah. And that understanding of like, what is
16:58
the point of me? Why am I here?
17:00
Like deep down, who actually am I? So
17:02
I always feel like I
17:04
had this unique experience where I found
17:07
my why really early twenties. And I
17:09
think it's quite rare to see that.
17:11
So it made me realize what the
17:13
point of my life was and what I'm supposed to be
17:15
doing. I mean, I have, I have a faith as well,
17:17
but I wasn't raised as a faith. Right. So I
17:19
had this thing of I surrendered and understood what
17:21
I should be doing with all my time. And
17:24
that is why I built a charity and
17:26
I do a lot of stuff in prisons,
17:28
that kind of foundation. Yeah. Tell us about
17:31
that work. So that was for me,
17:33
I had to go out the country
17:35
for treatment. And you think of people
17:37
going to America, you know, think of
17:39
innovation to be out there. It was
17:41
only in Europe in France. So funny
17:43
story, my mum and dad, their house
17:45
was on this, this first documentary I
17:47
made when I was a contributor of the
17:49
subject of the documentary. My beautiful
17:51
face. Yeah. So mum and dad live in
17:54
a really small village. And that's where I'm
17:56
brought up. Everyone knows everyone. Hampshire. Hampshire. Yeah.
18:00
You love it, we still go back
18:02
there don't we? Yeah I love you want to go down
18:04
there. We go back there and regress to children and just
18:06
sit on the sofa eating. But
18:08
yeah so everyone recognised the exterior of
18:11
mum and dad's house and people started
18:13
putting like tenors through the letterbox and
18:16
my mum and dad they're quite strict, look at old school
18:18
mother. She's got farmers, your dad's got
18:20
farmers. My
18:22
mum is like a school teacher
18:25
and they were like you can't take that
18:27
money that's fraud, you're a disability benefit, you've
18:29
got to bank the money. But
18:31
the money kept coming into like the thousands. Oh
18:33
my goodness. So they were like you need to
18:35
make the bank account charitable status and then what
18:37
we'll do is if there's another big burn injury
18:40
in the news or you know or
18:42
a big catastrophe where there's a house fire or
18:44
something we'll just give that money to those people
18:46
to go to France. Right. And
18:48
it never stops like there's public support
18:51
and then we just formalised
18:53
into a trustee board with
18:55
actual volunteer staff and then we built our
18:57
own rehab centre here so no one has
18:59
to go to France. You have your own
19:01
centre? Up north, yeah. Not in London, no
19:03
way. Yeah, that's incredible. That's amazing. That
19:06
really is and I can't believe that
19:08
people were just giving
19:10
to you in that way and just felt
19:13
that they had to do something. Well you know
19:15
all those cliches of like when you're
19:18
in dire straits and you lose faith
19:20
in like mankind, just look for the
19:22
helpers? Yes. And you do see
19:24
that don't you when you see these big things in the news and
19:26
you're like oh what's happened to the
19:28
world? You have to focus on the helpers I
19:31
think. Yes. And I saw from
19:33
my own eyes there are a lot of people
19:35
out there who want to do things anonymously and
19:37
do really good things. Yeah, look for the good.
19:39
Yeah, so like you get to meet a lot
19:41
of those people and it does open your eyes doesn't it?
19:44
Yeah, there's a lot of good people. Even though there really
19:46
are. There really are a lot of good people out there.
19:48
There really are and it's really easy to forget. And
19:51
I think that the message you know you talk about
19:53
social media actually, the message we get again and again
19:55
all the time right now is that everything is broken.
19:58
The whole country's fractured. everybody
20:01
hates each other and you know since Brexit it's
20:03
all been a nightmare and everybody's like you know
20:05
and you could be forgiven for thinking
20:07
that is the only thing that's true that if
20:09
you really get out there I just made
20:11
a show I was just gonna say going
20:13
all around the country and kind of looking
20:15
at different communities and bringing communities together through
20:17
food through feasting and there's
20:20
like these unbelievable stories these pockets of
20:22
communities all around the country where people
20:25
are doing the exact opposite of being
20:27
broken they are fixing themselves fixing each
20:29
other looking after each other holding each other I
20:32
did one of them with mum in the old area that we grew
20:34
up in Labrick Grove and I was
20:36
really nervous to go there just thinking oh god I
20:38
don't want to see I don't be reminded how gentrified
20:40
Notting Hill is thanks I don't need to know my
20:43
area has been completely taken over and we just found
20:45
the complete opposite and it was really uplifted. Oh my
20:47
goodness. It filled our soul. I mean I
20:49
spent three months filming and three months crying.
20:52
Getting people to go oh
20:54
my god you're so amazing.
20:56
You can't listen to what people tell
20:58
you about an area or a situation you need to
21:00
go and witness for. I did
21:03
a show in prisons with it as well. I know
21:05
I was so interested in it. Now
21:08
can I ask because you do so many
21:10
different types of things within your broadcasting and
21:12
obviously as a broadcaster I know that it's
21:15
not easy to get things made it's not easy to
21:17
get things that you want made but it feels like
21:19
everything that you do get made and is put out
21:22
you have a proper connection to and then
21:24
I don't know maybe you fought to get
21:26
made a bit. So with the jailhouse mum's
21:28
impossible to make programmes in prisons in the
21:30
UK because Minister of Justice just blocked you
21:32
for access. Like the prison, they didn't want
21:34
to show what's going on but the Minister
21:37
of Justice is so strict. So
21:39
I was just working in prisons anyway I've been working
21:41
in prisons for like what three years do you think?
21:43
Three years yeah. Really doing what? Again
21:47
it was the thing that I hadn't thought about doing
21:49
so I was working with Women's Aid and a lot
21:51
of the women's and the refugees had actually
21:53
come from prison and I realised there
21:55
was this big connection with women being victims
21:58
and ending up in prison. not
22:00
the right place for them. And
22:02
then this one prison contacted me that they named
22:04
a wing after me when they were doing this
22:06
project about women that inspired them. And
22:08
they're like, would you come in and meet the women
22:10
that had done this project? So I felt like, I've
22:13
got to be honest, I did feel like it's not
22:15
something I would have thought to do, but I felt
22:17
like I had to, because I felt bad to come
22:19
and- Because they renamed it off, yeah. Yeah, and I
22:21
felt like here's a group in prison that are trying
22:23
to move forward and better their lives. And if I
22:26
reject them, will that put people backwards? So
22:28
I did go a little bit like sort of
22:30
not that excited, and I ended up
22:33
getting on so well with the women,
22:35
and they have so many stories, so
22:37
many shared emotions. Were you surprised by the
22:39
types of women and the kind of people that you-
22:41
The variation, yeah. And just
22:43
everyone's someone's daughter. Yeah. We've got two
22:45
girls, haven't we? Everyone started out as
22:47
a little baby, the mother of somebody.
22:51
And then I just started going back and they were
22:53
telling me how they struggled to get speakers for International
22:55
Women's Day, because no, everyone wants to be paid.
22:57
So I was like, well, I'll do that. I make
22:59
lots of money to incorporate stuff. I can come and
23:02
do a talk in a prison. It's not gonna kill
23:04
my schedule, you know? And I've just been
23:06
going back for years. And now usually there
23:08
will be bags and the presents and- And
23:10
so I don't feel like they're surprises you take from what
23:12
they- Well, like getting in bags for late night. Like
23:15
Christmas, because it's so hard. You can't
23:17
have anything with alcohol,
23:20
peripheral, any preservatives in.
23:22
You can't have anything sharp glass. So we were going
23:25
around all these shops, getting all different beauty
23:27
things and reading all the ingredients.
23:29
And you take little present bags. Then
23:31
International Women's Day, he dethorned 50
23:34
roses by hand. Come on, Richie.
23:37
Come on, Richie. He's
23:39
like the silent hero of life.
23:41
Keep being kind. You're
23:43
up behind the line. He dethorned- How
23:46
many roses? 50 roses. 50
23:49
roses a.m. before the kids got up, because he had to do
23:51
the school run as a- Yeah. Who is this man?
23:53
Where did you find that? Please, I'm now gonna
23:55
go for my pen. I'm a kid. I'm also
23:57
a kid. I'm giving you pen. I'm
24:00
in the reaction. Sort of de-sawn these and
24:02
take the kids and you talk de-sawn roses
24:04
and lovely little presents. Yeah, and then
24:06
we're just doing different workshops and stuff with them, but
24:08
it's the same what you said about your show. Like
24:11
everyone in prison, I
24:13
mean, to say somebody's a bad person, I'm not sure
24:15
I actually believe in that concept anyway. There's like
24:18
this tiny percent of the prison population that
24:20
can't be rehabilitated, but it's so tiny. No,
24:23
do you know, this is making me think
24:25
of Dennis, the cornworm boxer.
24:28
I have this company called Ropes,
24:31
which is getting as many people to
24:33
skip as possible. And when we
24:35
first started, it was locked down. So I just took
24:37
a load of ropes out and a few of my
24:39
cousins into my phones and went to a square,
24:41
Gillette Square and Hackney. And there were all these
24:43
kind of old gentlemen of the area. A
24:46
lot of them are judged immediately. And I
24:49
took skipping ropes down. Half of them just
24:51
grabbed the ropes, skipping, having a great time.
24:53
But one of them was absolutely incredible doing
24:55
crosses, everything toothless. Seventy five years old. And
24:58
I said to his friend, how come he's
25:00
so good? And they said, because he used
25:02
to be a Commonwealth boxer. It's the coordination.
25:05
Yes. And actually, for a moment, he didn't
25:07
look like a man that had been sleeping on the streets
25:09
or sitting in that square for 20 years. He looked
25:11
like an eight year old boy. And he was like,
25:13
God, I haven't done this in decades. And he could
25:15
still do it. So I think
25:17
it's so important to see us before the
25:19
things that we do or the things that
25:21
happen to us. Who were we? We were
25:23
just this being. Yeah, not exactly. We
25:26
are not what happens does. I mean, we
25:28
are. But there is there's also this innocence
25:30
in all of us. Yeah. So I just
25:32
love the idea that all the judgments just
25:34
went in. Yeah. No, I mean, we're all
25:36
like, what's one decision today or one accident
25:38
away from going to prison or a home. Yeah.
25:42
Something happening to you with your work disappear.
25:44
Yeah. All of a sudden, you know, your two mortgage
25:46
payments late and then you're there and then you've got
25:48
to live. Happens to people all the time. And there's
25:51
joy in there as well, because we're able to know
25:53
them all. It's quite funny. I've known for years and
25:55
I when I saw them in the sales, like, yeah,
25:57
I'll be back with it. We do like park running
25:59
then. So I was like, I'll be back for part one
26:01
next month. Hopefully I'll see you all then.
26:03
And they're like, Katie, we've got life. We'll be here
26:06
for 38 years. Yeah. Oh
26:08
my God. You say that all the time and
26:10
you say it again. Yeah, but we'll see you
26:12
next week. We'll meet again. Yeah, we'll see you
26:14
next week. I
26:17
was on another day. So we can laugh about
26:19
it. We're having a lot exactly. Yeah, there is
26:21
joy. There is hate in there. You've been to
26:23
men's prison as well. You've got, not as an
26:25
inmate. No, not as an inmate. He's very,
26:28
very terrifying. So
26:31
you volunteer. Exactly. What do you do then? Same
26:33
sort of work. The same sort of thing,
26:35
yeah. Just helping them. Just mental health. Mental health.
26:38
More mental health. I know you think, I know for me, after
26:41
my brother died and I was really, I was 25
26:43
when my brother died, it was really sudden. And
26:46
I was side swiped
26:48
by accident gap. But you know, I was depressed. I
26:50
went through all sorts of stuff. And one of
26:52
the things I started doing, that
26:54
really helped me, was working
26:56
as a volunteer at an
26:59
HIV and AIDS hospice. And
27:01
there was something just about seven outside the door and
27:04
meeting people who
27:06
needed connection. It
27:09
helped me so much. I mean, obviously
27:12
the infrastructure and all of the work that was happening
27:14
in this centre was called the London Lighthouse. It was
27:16
just off-lover. Do you remember the Lighthouse? Amazing, of course.
27:18
The most incredible place I used to do one
27:20
or two days a week there. Just
27:22
getting out of bed and going down to
27:25
the end of my road and going to
27:27
that place once or twice a week, changed
27:29
everything for me. Good perspective. Yeah, because I
27:32
just was literally kind of paralyzed by
27:34
the shock of loss and
27:37
death. And just connecting with
27:39
other people who needed some
27:41
humanity. It's funny
27:43
because whenever I'm interviewed about projects and things
27:45
like the Jow House Mums, I'm like, I
27:48
had these ambitions and if I wasn't with
27:50
you, I couldn't do them. Because
27:53
I'll come home with my crazy ideas and
27:56
I'll be like, you know, I've been to prisons in the UK. He's like,
27:58
yeah. about going
28:00
to America to do this series and I won't be
28:02
able to use my phone much and it'll be different
28:04
times different what do you I mean you can do
28:06
pain yourselves I know you can't do braids but you'll
28:08
be fine with it and
28:12
I can get some more hair bits. How
28:14
long were you a while doing that? It
28:16
was more like two three week blocks at
28:18
a time. And
28:21
how is it for you and Katie goes away especially when
28:23
you know she's going to do something that hardcore? I
28:26
know to be fair, it's something she's always
28:28
wanted to do so I support her fully
28:30
in what she wants to do so I
28:32
always worry about is she going
28:34
to be safe out there? Is anything going to
28:37
happen to her? Is it a bit too much
28:39
for her mental health taking more problems other people's
28:41
problems on? Yeah. But I'll
28:43
just support her what she does I know she wants to do it.
28:46
Does she have to be stopped sometimes? Do
28:49
you have any advice for this bit on her? There's
28:53
no way that's happening. There's no stopping her. Once
28:56
she gets an idea in her head or I
28:58
might announce it you might just agree with it
29:00
and go yeah. I'm a focus either. I
29:03
love that. In our
29:05
career, sorry not our career, in our industry you sort
29:07
of have to be that bloody minded and you have
29:10
to be so focused on what it is you want
29:12
to make and why as you were saying the why
29:14
of things we started talking about that a lot intent
29:17
but why are we doing this? It's not
29:19
about just being on screen it's like but
29:21
why? Yeah. I think it's everything. And
29:23
there's so much energy you have to give it
29:25
because like you said it's very hard to even
29:27
get things commissioned and funded so when you do
29:30
then you don't rest and go oh it's
29:32
happening you think no I've got to make a success of it
29:34
now. Yeah. Because there's even more
29:36
pressure but I can never relate to when
29:39
other people who are married say oh will
29:41
your husband let you do that or do
29:43
you dread ask and I'm like well our
29:45
relationship is like we encourage each other and
29:47
wherever he wants to do something if I
29:49
can enable it I will and vice versa
29:51
I know I've got that support too. Yeah.
29:54
Yeah I know it's just a weird. What if it's family? Yeah.
29:57
What if it's family? Yeah. Yeah.
30:00
But I think it's a bit... It's
30:02
an insect though, isn't it? I know
30:04
the stuff you like to do, so I
30:06
don't encroach on that time. I make sure
30:08
I'm with the kids and then I know
30:10
you'll reciprocate the energy. You know
30:13
what's interesting to me about that actually, and this was something
30:15
I've been thinking about quite a lot recently, is that quite
30:17
a lot of women I know who work
30:19
still feel guilty about
30:21
going to work and not being
30:24
with their children all the time. My mum... I never
30:26
imagined a life that I would just be
30:28
at home. I mean, I think if you want
30:31
to do that and you're able to do that, then more power to
30:33
you to do it every once. But to
30:35
me, working parents, that's how I grew
30:37
up. How do you play the rent? And you said your mum
30:39
was a teacher. I never really gave up. My mum was a
30:41
teacher. So you both
30:43
saw the same thing, someone getting up, marking books,
30:45
going out every day. You went to work. I
30:47
came and cooked. This is how I let's cook.
30:50
We had one car. So one person was walking,
30:52
one person got to go with the other parent.
30:55
We walked home from school to an empty house, had
30:57
our own key on a string. Yeah.
30:59
And I had a great childhood, you know, it was brilliant.
31:01
But it was just everything was
31:04
logistical and like both parents had to work.
31:06
Yeah. For me, it's given me a real
31:08
drive, the expectation that I can get out
31:10
in the world and do anything and be
31:12
a mother and have friends and,
31:14
you know, be many things at
31:17
many times. We're all multifaceted individuals,
31:19
hopefully. Do you know what was amazing for
31:21
me, right? Because our eldest, she's going to
31:24
turn 10 on Thursday. She's really into like
31:26
writing and poetry. And she wrote this poem
31:28
about Rich, right? And it's what you start
31:30
to realise how your kids observe you and
31:32
know. They know your kids know who you
31:34
are. Don't they? They know what you do,
31:36
like good and bad. And the
31:38
poem ended with, thanks for
31:40
always having mums back in everything she
31:42
does. And we were both like,
31:44
oh, my God. I was touching when you said
31:47
that. She obviously sees it, doesn't she? They're like
31:49
little sponges, isn't they? Of course. And that's beautiful,
31:51
because that's what she will expect in a relationship.
31:53
That's what we were talking about. Yeah. And
31:56
this whole shallow side of life,
31:58
you have to engage in the shallow side. side
32:00
of showbiz to promote your project and get people
32:02
to watch them write. But sometimes those events can
32:04
be awful where you know people are looking over
32:06
your shoulder for the better person to talk to.
32:09
Oh I can't stand it, you talk to them
32:11
and they're like yeah. And it's just like, it's
32:13
a little bit soul destroying. Absolutely. I feel like
32:15
for you, you hate them and they're like, so what
32:17
do you do? And then it's like, well, he does
32:19
everything, you know. But if it's not a thing that
32:21
they can't put in a box or that it doesn't
32:24
help them, it's not going to further down the head.
32:27
It's interesting because actually every person
32:29
you meet and speak to helps you if you
32:31
let them in. You let them in. Because you
32:34
know you don't know what you're going to love
32:36
in that human city. That fucking question, what do
32:38
you do? Because I've been working
32:40
for a long time, I didn't get so much what do you do.
32:42
I got what are you up to at the moment? I'm
32:46
there. You've done
32:48
nothing. My fault. You're
32:51
like, I'm here having anxiety. I'm
32:54
having a panic attack in front of you. I'm
33:02
going to see that you did about, you know, taking
33:05
shame off aging and how every year is a
33:08
gift and all these things that we know. But
33:10
it's very different to apply them to your thinking
33:12
and your living. But watching my
33:14
auntie turn 60 and my
33:16
mother turn 60 last year and they are both
33:18
not only in the most successful times of their
33:20
entire careers, which is unprecedented,
33:23
but also joyful and grateful. And, you know,
33:25
we've lost people when you get to these
33:27
ages, you lose people. Important
33:30
pillars of your life go like that in
33:32
a second. And it's so strange
33:34
how you can't take that and then just know
33:36
that aging is a gift. Yeah. Of course you
33:39
do sometimes. But then I still I do still
33:41
have a lot of fear about being
33:43
in the decade of my 40s. How
33:46
do you guys feel about it? You've done it.
33:48
You're about to. I'm excited. Yeah,
33:51
I thought it was on really good now. Over the
33:53
last five years, I've really started we started living. We
33:55
have. Yeah. And live in the last five years. And now
33:57
I just want to see what the next. I'll try to.
34:00
I mean, I just
34:02
feel like for me,
34:05
I think maybe it's slightly different from
34:07
men because I think
34:18
the women, the shame is like your worst
34:20
is in your appearance and only
34:22
use is attractive. And that's really
34:24
what the message is coming from society. So
34:26
I've already dealt with all that when I
34:28
was in my 20s. It was
34:30
like rapidly aging anyway. So I'm like,
34:33
whilst you're worrying in your own little
34:35
world about being another 12 months older,
34:37
someone's whole world has just stopped somewhere
34:39
and they don't have that privilege. It's
34:41
over. Everything's finished. You know, they've had
34:43
their terminal diagnosis in their 30s or
34:45
whatever it is. So I always feel
34:47
like, how dare I, who am I
34:50
to not lap this up and live?
34:52
And I think, especially in this
34:54
industry, you meet so many men and women
34:56
that have just started their career in their
34:58
60s and their peak time. This one's probably
35:00
at 55. So you never know what's coming
35:03
up. And we're all one form phone call
35:07
away from some life changing job or,
35:09
yeah, I think it looks different of
35:11
like, do you remember being young?
35:16
And you thought like, your mum's friends
35:18
were old and they were 40. Yeah,
35:20
you remember them friends when they
35:22
all turned 30 and they were actually like, they wanted to kill
35:24
themselves. And we were like, yeah, totally. Yeah.
35:27
I think people dressed just
35:29
for it and more like
35:31
formal clothes.
35:33
Women looked more formal. The
35:35
parents, the parents, like 42. Yeah.
35:38
I think we're turning 40 a
35:42
really lucky time because there actually has been
35:44
a massive shift. And as broadcasters, female broadcasters,
35:46
Katie, I feel like I'm only just fucking
35:49
beginning. I don't feel like, yeah, I would
35:51
not be working at this age. And I've
35:53
never felt more successful already
35:55
for more. I totally agree. And
35:57
I feel like it's a long slot. as
36:00
well. So I'm like, you know, you can feel
36:02
sort of everything's going well, then actually you can
36:04
have a quiet period where you feel like you've
36:07
gone backwards as well. But I feel like the
36:09
older I get the more my boundaries come in
36:11
place, the more confident I get. So it's only
36:13
a good thing. Like going backwards will be catastrophic
36:15
for me. So when you talk about boundaries, do
36:18
you mean about what you prepare to do? What
36:20
are the things that you say yes to,
36:22
things you say no to, things you work
36:24
towards? I think it's also worrying about upsetting
36:26
people. So that kind of like slims down
36:28
the no's and makes more yeses, you know,
36:30
and realizing, oh they hate you
36:32
anyway. So just say no. I
36:34
can't really say.
36:37
Whether they hate me or love me or whatever, I
36:39
don't want to do that. You do
36:41
enough things, you do things enough times that you're not into.
36:44
To understand it's like I would rather
36:46
be at home reading a book
36:48
or getting ready for the next thing that I really want
36:50
to do. They spent two days as a bunch of people
36:52
I don't want to be with, doing something I don't want
36:55
to do. And trying to find an opinion about something I
36:57
don't care about. But
37:00
this comes into, my
37:02
friend said to me last year, she went, maybe next year
37:04
you won't be on screen so much. I was like shut
37:06
the fuck up. I'm dead, that's so
37:08
unfair, that's mean. And then this year
37:10
I was like, maybe I won't be.
37:12
And what would that look like? I just have
37:14
a bit more of a life and, you
37:17
know, well, I know you like
37:19
affirmations. Oh yes, I've
37:21
got my affirmations list, I was thinking, I wonder
37:24
if you... Do you like them as well then?
37:26
I can't live without them, they changed my life.
37:28
What's a powerful word of the past? What
37:31
you say, what comes out of your
37:33
mouth and lands out in the universe,
37:35
has power and anything. What you say
37:37
inside your head to yourself has power
37:39
and energy. I'm always saying to her,
37:41
change the language. Yeah, because it's like
37:43
the soul shows on the body and
37:46
you think people are picking up on it. And absolutely
37:48
they are picking up on that energy and that fire.
37:50
Because you're putting it out there, whether you say it
37:52
or not, even if you're just thinking, you think, oh
37:54
no one knows. In fact they do because they can
37:56
feel it in the air between you and them. And
37:58
you know we were shifting it when we were... I do not chase,
38:00
I attract, what belongs to me will
38:03
simply find me. I
38:20
do like that and I do think it's true
38:22
because you can over-seek and then you feel disappointed.
38:27
I already have because then
38:29
it's also it's like that's in live it that's living
38:31
in the not have isn't it which is like a
38:33
frequency you put out I don't have I don't have.
38:36
Well you always talk about this in
38:38
our marriage and becoming parents it's like
38:40
the more happy you get the more
38:42
the book the goalpost changes your happiness
38:44
just creates more and more expectation right
38:46
actually more pressure instead of saying I'm
38:49
freaked out I'm worried I'm worried we
38:51
say I'm very curious about
38:53
how this might turn out. I'm
38:56
in the car instead of
38:59
that I'm a bit nervous it
39:01
would have been like okay I think I'm quite
39:03
curious about today and there's something that comes like
39:05
oh I wonder what will happen. But it's quite
39:07
nice it's just one word shifts your
39:09
whole energy and therefore your perspective and therefore
39:12
your expectations. We try and do it with
39:14
the kids don't we? Oh that's good they're
39:16
not interested. They
39:18
will get amazing times
39:21
when they always just go
39:23
you know my mum and dad used to do
39:25
affirmations with us. How is raising daughters guys?
39:27
I actually love raising daughters. You
39:29
wanted a son then? I did want a son originally I did want
39:32
a son. I don't know why I don't know whether I
39:34
grew up that stereotypical oh we have a boy we've been
39:36
taking football. We can do this with him but having two
39:39
little girls doing their hair her
39:41
house is a much better atmosphere. Nice
39:44
energy. It's like you feel the energy and the love.
39:46
Did you grow up with lots of women? Yeah my
39:48
brother got one brother one sister put loads of aunties.
39:51
I can tell this is what it's about is that
39:53
you've got like a total like like
39:55
son of many many women. You've
40:00
got that man of good
40:02
women, right? What
40:05
do you hope for in this next part of your life?
40:08
Well, I suppose for me, before
40:11
lockdown, I would always answer that
40:13
question with professional ambitions. And
40:16
I just think actually the only thing that got
40:18
me through lockdown was family and thinking, thank God
40:20
I'm not one of those people that doesn't have
40:22
my health, you know, having it. So I don't
40:25
always want it to be this long thing of like, I'm going
40:27
to do this and take over the world. Because I don't know
40:29
at the end of the day, what does any of that really
40:32
mean? It's just kind of
40:34
like self-fulfilling ego, really. You know, I want
40:36
to provide for my family. I want to
40:38
financially be able to give my kids,
40:41
you know, health education. But
40:43
I suppose it's just to stay
40:45
close as they become teenagers. And I
40:48
don't think I think I've been a good mum. I do. I
40:51
have some regrets at the beginning where
40:54
I probably took a lot of jobs and I feel
40:56
like I missed out on some stuff. And
40:58
that is a thing that sort of fits with me.
41:00
But in the last sort of like seven, eight years,
41:02
I've been very present. So I want to make sure
41:05
like the teen years I'm there because that's
41:07
when my life started to unravel. And
41:09
I was quite a rebellious teen. So I am
41:12
quite apprehensive about how this is going to go.
41:14
The teenage years. I'm not going to lie. I'm
41:16
not going to lie. It's hard. You're worried about
41:18
meeting your teenage self. Well, yeah.
41:20
I mean, I literally gave birth.
41:22
And my mum was like, yes,
41:24
so I kind of understand everything.
41:27
And I'm really sorry about everything. I
41:29
just realized I've got this responsibility, this new
41:32
love that I've never felt. My
41:35
mum said to me, she was being awful one day. My
41:37
mum went, what? And
41:40
she went, wow, just thinking you get the children you deserve.
41:45
Whatever. I
41:47
mean, that's why you were a scented
41:50
angel. Thank you so much for coming
41:52
to our table. It's
41:56
so nice to have you two here. Do
42:00
you like pancakes? Yeah, that
42:02
was superb in pancakes. I
42:05
don't want you to do any other interviews with Katie. I want this
42:07
to be the only one you want to do. Not
42:11
everybody's as fabulous as us. Why do
42:13
I always have this much fun written on? I
42:15
want you to know that. Katie,
42:18
thank you for coming. Thank you
42:20
for coming as well, Katie. Yeah, you're welcome.
42:24
I'm so sweet and you've become rich. I
42:30
don't feel like this. So
42:36
I think we might have to put in
42:38
a request to just clone Richie's
42:41
for many, many people often down the country.
42:43
So many women I know could do with the
42:45
Richie's. So many people could do with the Richie's.
42:47
It's just got the nicest energy, just like easy
42:50
going, but like solid, like just the
42:52
proper, proper salt of the earth. Good
42:54
human being. We love that. I don't
42:56
think there's many people in the country
42:58
who don't know who Katie Piper is
43:00
now. Right. A really quite well-known
43:02
woman. Yes, yes. And everyone knows so much about
43:05
her story. It's probably quite, you know, it's exposing
43:07
people know the hardest shit you've been through. Yeah.
43:11
Everyone knows about the first one. I'm so impressed
43:13
by her actually because she turned that,
43:15
that could have been her only story.
43:18
Yeah. That could have been the only
43:20
thing people knew about, but she took that and turned
43:22
it into power and positivity.
43:24
I care. I love
43:26
for others. I love the fact that she, the
43:29
work that she does, I didn't really know about
43:31
all the work from the foundation. I thought that
43:33
was so interesting. And the work that she does
43:35
with women in prison, I think is even more
43:37
fascinating. Well, this is interesting because she does so
43:39
many different documentaries about so many different topics that
43:42
are all very much rooted in what she believes
43:44
and what she cares about. But she does a
43:46
lot of work that no one knows about. Yes.
43:49
There's a lot of work that's unseen. Yeah. And
43:51
she just, she gives the shit. She gives
43:53
the shit. She really gives the shit. It's
43:56
the earliest anyone's ever come over. I quite liked having a brunch. I liked
43:58
having a brunch. I mean, you... You
44:00
managed quite well with the sweet and savoury being
44:02
near each other. Obviously.
44:04
But you had
44:06
your little dirty mate Richie
44:09
pouring maple syrup over his mushrooms. I thought
44:11
I saw at one point maple syrup
44:13
on the bacon and the mushroom.
44:15
But not on the mushroom. But
44:18
then, a little insight from everyone. When
44:20
Katie and Richie were leaving and we were putting
44:22
their boxes together because we give everyone a couple
44:24
words to take home. I think they had two
44:26
sweet boxes right? Pancakes, bacon,
44:29
fruit, syrup, fine. And
44:31
then Mum was like, just stick the mushrooms in there. Me and
44:33
Katie looked at each other horrified. She was
44:36
like, I'm trying to raise my kids right, Andy
44:38
Oliver. So I gave them a separate mushroom
44:40
box and a separate roast tomato box. And that's
44:42
how it should be. So nobody needs to worry.
44:44
That's how it should be. The sweet didn't touch
44:46
the savoury for too long. But it's a particularly
44:48
rainy Tuesday morning and again we say thank you
44:50
to Staring It Up to have beautiful
44:52
new people coming to our home and shine the
44:55
light. Let the light pour in. Check
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out the new documentary Freak Naked, the
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