Episode Transcript
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0:28
Hello Friends were cocoa. Here stand to reason
0:30
is the show of God. You're part of it.
0:33
Thank you for joining me! Eight five
0:36
five to Four Three Nine Nine seven
0:38
Five is the number you can call
0:40
during the live show, which is now
0:42
for me a four to six on
0:44
Tuesday. Afternoon and
0:46
early evening. A Los Angeles time.
0:48
I'm still a kind of i'm.
0:51
Processing. The response to
0:54
my recent solid ground. Ah, it's
0:56
something that I have been putting
0:58
the other for a couple of
1:00
years because of the push back
1:03
on one aspect. Of. The
1:05
story of reality relating to the
1:07
cross or that I've received an
1:09
number of letters. Some very long
1:11
letters were tons of vs. And.
1:14
I've saved all this and the
1:16
my thoughts in musings about it
1:18
over time in a file and
1:20
then pull that fi allowed Decided
1:22
I wanted. Respond. Here
1:24
and try to put together. A
1:27
characterization of Arm of The
1:29
Atonement and what was going
1:31
on there are that is.
1:34
I'm. Affirmed.
1:38
In. Scripture. In. My
1:40
view it seems to me and this is part
1:42
of my own. My.
1:45
Own. Frustration here are
1:47
the it's it with. It.
1:49
It appears. Completely.
1:52
Clear. And
1:55
are ought not be controversial.
1:58
On. As I was talking. The and
2:00
it has to do with the
2:02
anger of the father towards sinners
2:04
that needs to be. Satisfied.
2:08
Appears. Propitiation, whatever worthy
2:10
you want to use. and people.
2:12
Lots of times they choose words.
2:14
They're. Appeased. Really, we
2:16
have to please god as a while. Dig
2:19
trees whatever you want, but the a debt
2:21
has to be paid. We.
2:24
Owe him. And the
2:27
debt has to be paid. So there are different. Ways
2:29
of characterizing this in the
2:32
New Testament, but it's largely
2:34
forensic language that is a
2:37
characterization, but there's also brass
2:39
language. All. Over. The.
2:41
New Testament and The Old Testament
2:43
and the A D of the
2:46
Wrath is satisfied. By. A
2:48
substitute. Jesus.
2:50
Himself, it's interesting as we're talking.
2:54
Just before the show, Amy and I.
2:57
See mention Romans Five. And do you remember
2:59
that passage? You exactly where it's at a
3:01
Me. I want to just look it up
3:04
here and read it. It's Romans Five. It
3:06
has to be doing has has to do
3:08
with we're at odds with God. I think
3:11
the word, his enemies. Ah,
3:13
we were enemies of God before
3:16
Christ came. Romans
3:19
Five Ten Okay, let me just
3:21
get past actually or know Amy
3:23
as the Romans experts are. She
3:25
really was right on top of
3:27
this one. And here's what it
3:29
says: For while
3:31
we. Were. Enemies.
3:36
We. Were reconciled to God.
3:39
To. The death of his son. While.
3:45
We. Were enemies. I.
3:48
Don't know how else to take this. A
3:52
It isn't as if we dislike
3:54
God, but he's benevolent towards us.
3:56
I mean, without qualification. He's.
3:59
The Nice: The over there no
4:01
with this is a hostile relationship.
4:05
Gods. Mad at us because we have
4:07
rebelled against him. He's the sovereign, He's
4:09
the king. It's.
4:12
An enemy relationship. That's.
4:16
What it says here in Romans five
4:18
and in fact is not just like
4:20
I'm isolating versus there is a. A
4:23
line of thinking that. That
4:25
Paul offers. That.
4:28
Is he moves through the Book of Romans.
4:32
Here's. The problem. People.
4:35
Are with out excuse he says that
4:37
twice and Romans one. And
4:40
doesn't matter how you slice it. People.
4:43
Are bad. And.
4:46
Everybody is shut up completely
4:48
under sin. For.
4:51
All of sand. And fallen
4:53
short of the glory of God. And.
4:57
How do you fix that? Because.
5:00
It isn't just that we send and there's
5:02
a in the abstract. I'm
5:04
that's not good. It's
5:07
that we are sitting against
5:10
someone. It's.
5:13
Personal. That's.
5:15
Why in Romans Five here? First.
5:19
Ten it says we are
5:22
enemies. And why
5:24
we were. Enemies. We.
5:27
Were reconcile while we are of you
5:29
know. Against him he moved
5:31
towards us. That's a I mean
5:33
that's what makes the at the
5:36
the The Love Of God so
5:38
incredible. It's easy and
5:40
I'm paraphrasing here from some other place.
5:42
Aromas: It's easy to love people who
5:44
love you. And.
5:46
Who are nice to you? but. God
5:49
shows his love towards us and
5:51
even while we were yet sinners,
5:54
Christ. Died for us. Even.
5:57
While there was this enemy relationship.
6:01
And that's why in Romans of five
6:03
at the beginning you see therefore being
6:05
having been. Justified
6:07
by faith, we have peace with God. Through.
6:10
Our Lord Jesus Christ by the way, notices this
6:12
is not the piece. Of
6:14
God. That's. Different. Piece
6:17
of God is a subjective thing.
6:20
Be anxious for nothing but now
6:22
everything with parents application with Thanksgiving
6:24
Make your request known to God
6:26
and the and a piece of
6:29
God. With. Surpasses
6:31
all understanding showed. Guard your hearts and
6:33
your minds across seas as that's the
6:35
subjective thing. We. Pray
6:37
We put it in God's hands. We let it
6:40
go and then. We
6:42
have a and there's an effective
6:44
element their we feel different. That's.
6:47
Not what star who had to pause referring
6:50
to in. Romans. Five,
6:52
This is peace with God.
6:55
That. Means God is not angry at
6:57
us anymore. Two.
7:00
Groups that were. Hostile
7:02
towards each other, For.
7:04
Very particular reasons we were hostile: A God:
7:07
because we are sinners. God was house interest
7:09
because his God is morally perfect in his
7:11
the sovereign. This been wronged. Those.
7:17
Two groups have been reconciled. There.
7:19
Is no peace with. Each
7:22
other, which is why we rejoice.
7:28
We. Have also obtained are introduction.
7:31
By. Faith into this grace in which we
7:33
stand and we exult in the hope of the
7:35
glory of God. And this helps
7:37
us. By the way, with tribulation that comes
7:39
next week also result in our tribulation. Knowing.
7:44
That. Tribulation brings about perseverance of perseverance,
7:46
proven care to prove a character. Hope
7:48
and Hope does not disappoint. Because.
7:51
The love of God has been poured out
7:53
with in our hearts to the Holy Spirit
7:55
who was given to was the Holy Spirit
7:57
was given to us when we believed. When
8:00
we trusted in Christ. And.
8:03
Then the love of God is poured out. Because.
8:07
The barriers. Have. Been
8:09
removed. While.
8:13
We're still helpless of the right time. Christ
8:15
died for the ungodly for one would hardly
8:18
die for righteous man though perhaps for the
8:20
good man, someone would dare even to die.
8:22
but God demonstrates his own love toward us.
8:25
In that while weary of sinners, christ.
8:27
Died. For us, much more than
8:30
having now been justified by his
8:32
blood, we shall be saved from
8:34
the ras. To
8:37
him. The. Wrath of
8:39
God in my translation of gotta know, tell Us
8:41
To It's not a the original bit. we're a
8:43
where else is there are coming from. That's the
8:45
point. Saved!
8:48
From the rescue him. For.
8:52
While we were enemies. Were.
8:55
Reconciled. To. God. To
8:58
the death of his son. Is
9:00
the death of his son
9:02
that is the means of
9:04
reconciliation. What? Was it
9:06
about the death of the Sun
9:09
that was able to accomplish reconciliation?
9:13
That's the nature. That's the question of
9:15
the atonement. And I answer their question
9:17
from the texts that speak to them.
9:20
It. Was a suffering of Jesus. It is
9:22
impossible for the blood of bulls and going
9:25
to take away sin. Does
9:29
he says when he comes into the world. Sacrifice
9:33
and burn off ratio of
9:35
not desired but a body
9:37
you have prepared for me.
9:39
Behold I have come to
9:41
do your will. Oh god.
9:45
The Father prepares a body for Jesus.
9:47
The incarnations of that body can be
9:49
the perfect sacrifices is the whole point,
9:52
especially of Hebrew. stan. A.
9:55
it i don't know why this is confusing
9:57
the people i am just misses hide I
10:01
can see how it can be distasteful to
10:03
some. It
10:07
just is mystifying to me that it's
10:12
there's such aggressive pushback. I just
10:14
read an email with the person
10:17
was very, hmm, how
10:20
could I characterize this? Let's
10:23
say you use very strong language
10:30
to describe what
10:32
he thought was an inaccurate
10:34
view of God on
10:36
the cross. He actually called it blasphemy and that
10:40
essentially only an idiot, you know,
10:43
a nitwit would believe that would be me. It
10:46
wasn't exactly his words but something
10:48
to that effect. Okay, I'm
10:52
just mystified. I am
10:54
honestly mystified because
10:57
I think the text is so clear
11:02
and this is what I wanted people to see what
11:04
the text actually teaches and have
11:06
that bring them to a deeper and more
11:11
profound appreciation for the
11:14
love of God that
11:17
provided a means of forgiveness at
11:21
His expense. It
11:24
cost God something to forgive us so
11:27
that we could be rescued that
11:30
we could be saved. Anyway,
11:32
I had one other thing I wanted to mention
11:34
to you. It's kind of a commercial and then
11:37
I'll get into some other calls. If
11:41
you haven't read, by the way, the solid ground,
11:43
you go to our website simply titled, Why the
11:45
Blood. If you don't
11:47
receive it on a regular basis in the upper
11:49
right hand corner, it says subscribe. Click
11:52
the button and subscribe. Is that where it is on our website?
11:54
Upper right hand corner, I think it is. Subscribe.
11:56
That means you're going to get stuff from us free. You're
11:59
going to get. These pieces we called Solid Ground
12:01
which is an article by three Thousand Thirty Five
12:03
Hundred Words every other month. And
12:06
by the way, on. Every
12:10
book that I've written, Every
12:13
chapter almost without excess exception came
12:15
from a prior solid ground. So
12:17
what? You're going to get his
12:19
all the good stuff before somebody
12:21
else has to pay for a
12:23
book. Okay, Anyway,
12:27
You can sign up for that, you get solid ground,
12:29
and ultimately monsieur get a one page mentoring letter. Eight
12:33
hundred words. This
12:36
way that I can. And other
12:38
staffers who participate in how About.
12:41
Ah, In writing what we're going to be sending you
12:43
things and a regular basis of you sign up for them.
12:47
And then you will have already received a
12:49
Why The Blood. Which came out
12:51
the first of May. Mrs.
12:57
Okay will do that it in a bit.
12:59
I wanted a mentioned or something and at
13:02
a at us a product we have and
13:04
I don't know what the cost is not
13:06
as I'm not trying to sell products but
13:08
it is for sale. I'm trying to train
13:11
up disciples. A many,
13:13
many years ago I taught a course called
13:15
The Bible Fast Forward. It. Was
13:17
actually the course when I was
13:19
in charge of a program at
13:21
Hope Chaplin her most a beach
13:23
called the Ah Hope Chapel Ministry
13:25
Institute Hc I and it was
13:27
is our way of doing adult
13:29
education. We had courses you taken.
13:31
One of them was the Bible.
13:33
Fast forward that was when I
13:35
met Melinda Penner who was the
13:37
cofounder Standard Recent thirty one years
13:39
ago. And
13:42
I met her in their class. She
13:44
was a student there. And
13:46
this was a class that I
13:48
put together because. early
13:51
on in my christian life i had
13:53
been given some teaching at this crazy
13:55
place called the jesus christ lane bar
13:57
house and kind of a crushing can
13:59
be that I
14:02
lived at for two and a half years right
14:04
after he became a Christian during the Jesus movement.
14:08
And there was a course that
14:11
gave me an overview of
14:14
Scripture that positioned
14:17
the covenants
14:19
of the Old Testament in a
14:21
way that I could understand their
14:23
relationship to Jesus in the New
14:26
Testament. Alright? And what
14:28
I have done in these what eight
14:31
sessions and they're 50 minutes each is
14:35
I give a practical in the same spirit
14:37
of that course that I had that helped me so
14:39
much I wanted to give two
14:41
other students and so this was birthed
14:43
in H CMI Hope Chapel Ministry Institute
14:46
but also we
14:48
revived that course and
14:50
I upgraded it and did
14:54
recordings in a few years back so
14:56
that it would be available on DVD
14:58
and you could watch it there. Maybe
15:01
we got mp3s I don't know if you're so want to listen
15:03
to it but and
15:06
there's a workbook that goes with it and it's about
15:08
150 pages that you print it
15:10
out it's a PDF and
15:12
if you print it out it's basically
15:15
the entire syllabus. You
15:17
don't have to take notes it's all right there for
15:19
you okay and
15:21
it gives a practical historical overview of
15:24
the Old Testament emphasizing
15:26
the unfolding plan of salvation as
15:28
God reveals it through his covenants
15:30
with the nation of Israel and
15:34
in the fulfillment of those covenants in
15:36
the person of Jesus of Nazareth and
15:38
what you're going to get here is
15:40
an understanding of the unity of the
15:42
Bible through God's plan
15:45
of salvation in a
15:47
way that you probably never grasped it
15:49
before all right many
15:52
of you have read the story of reality
15:54
that's great that gives you an overview but
15:56
notice how you go from God man to Jesus
16:00
God, man, Jesus, cross resurrection. Those are the
16:03
five key words of the plot line of
16:05
the story. Well,
16:07
between man, Genesis 3, and Jesus,
16:12
Matthew chapter 1, there's
16:14
a whole lot of stuff. There's
16:16
like thousands of years in the entire history
16:19
of the nation of Israel. And what the
16:21
Bible fast-forward does is it fills
16:23
in that gap with
16:26
theology. And
16:28
it's more complicated because
16:31
the Hebrew Scriptures are complicated. And what
16:33
I try to do is help you
16:35
to understand how these things all are
16:37
woven together. Because if
16:39
you don't understand the covenants of the Old Testament, you're
16:41
going to have a hard time understanding a whole bunch
16:43
of stuff in the New Testament. And
16:47
in this seminar, you'll be able to, here's a
16:49
couple of things that I go over, identify the
16:51
unifying theme of the entire Bible. You'll
16:54
be able to explain five ways
16:57
the Jews are God's chosen people.
16:59
You'll be able to chart the 12 main historical
17:01
events of the nation of Israel, starting
17:04
with the call of Abraham and ending with Jesus
17:06
the Messiah. You'll
17:08
have an historical overview. You know how this
17:10
all fits together. You'll
17:13
be able to list the basic elements of the
17:15
Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, and the
17:17
New Covenant. So those are the key ones. And
17:20
also understand the relevance of those covenants
17:23
for today. And
17:26
also see, and this to me is the
17:28
coolest thing, is see how the events
17:30
and the covenants and the promises
17:32
of the Old Testament come
17:35
to their perfect focus and
17:37
fulfillment in Christ. Which,
17:39
by the way, is what we're talking about a little bit with the
17:42
piece I wrote, Why the Blood, and the blood atonement. It
17:45
didn't just fall out of the sky. There's a
17:48
deep, profound history in
17:51
the practices, the religious practices of
17:53
ancient Israel as
17:55
dictated by God that ties directly
17:57
into Jesus' own
17:59
sacrifice. on the cross. And
18:02
hopefully you see that the Bible presents one cohesive
18:06
plan of salvation. So
18:09
I'm going to mention this more in the future just
18:11
because I think this is an overlooked tool
18:13
or resource for you. It
18:19
is one of the greatest things that ever
18:21
happened to me in my Christian life to
18:23
have the understanding that
18:26
I try to pass on
18:29
in this educational material
18:31
that we call the Bible
18:34
fast-forward. Okay so that's
18:36
available for you. You go to sdr.org and go
18:38
to the store and just
18:40
check that out. I think we have mp3s. The videos
18:43
are there. I don't know how long
18:45
ago we did that. I don't
18:48
think I was completely gray when we did that.
18:50
It was maybe 10 years ago right? I
18:54
did it at my church or a home church in
18:56
Thousand Oaks. They provided the venue in
18:58
the audience and it was great. It worked out. So I
19:00
hope you consider getting that. Alright let's
19:04
take a little break here and then we'll
19:06
come back to our callers on standard
19:08
reason. Do
19:10
you want to become a more knowledgeable
19:12
Christian ambassador without sitting through a formal
19:14
course on apologetics? Well we've made that
19:16
possible for you through our SDR quick
19:18
reference app. Available for free on iTunes
19:20
and Google Play, the SDR quick reference
19:22
app holds a wealth of information summarizing
19:24
what you need to know on a
19:26
range of topics. Learn how
19:28
to defend the faith, see how other
19:31
worldviews compare to Christianity, and master the
19:33
biblical view of morality all through short
19:35
engaging videos. Before you know it you'll
19:37
be well versed on a number of
19:39
important apologetics topics. In Addition:
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The Quick Reference app also includes a
19:44
Bible with text and audio as well
19:46
as some featured SDR resources, all to
19:48
enhance your learning experience. The SDR Quick
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Reference app will equip you to engage
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in thoughtful conversation about the key issues
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of life from classical Christian perspective. Visit
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iTunes or the Google Play Store Today
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and. Download the Str quip reference
20:01
at and if you enjoy the At, make
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sure you give it a five star review.
20:07
Friends. Or be a like this broadcast.
20:09
I know you'll love Hashtag Str asks.
20:11
It's are shorter twenty minute podcast where
20:13
I am paired with a wonderful Amy
20:15
Hall and together we answer the questions
20:17
you send us on twitter hashtag s
20:20
tier. Ask his release twice a week
20:22
mondays and Thursdays and it's only about
20:24
twenty minutes long so it's perfect to
20:26
listen to on your morning jog or
20:28
while driving around running errands or cleaning
20:31
your garage or just plain laughing at
20:33
home. Amy and I tackle your questions
20:35
on theology and ethics and culture. And
20:37
Loss more. Offering our insight on
20:39
the questions you're asking or the
20:41
challenges you face. You can listen
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apple podcasts or wherever you download
20:46
your own shows. Just. Remember,
20:48
send us your questions on
20:50
Twitter Using the name of
20:53
the podcast hashtag of Tier
20:55
asks that hashtag a serious.
21:09
Problem is you're finished the season
21:11
for reality, but we wanted or
21:14
know we're already planning and we
21:16
have been doing it for months.
21:18
The next season of Reality starting
21:20
in September and Southern California, October
21:22
in Seattle, november in Minneapolis with
21:24
February in. Dallas
21:27
barge in Philly? an April? we're
21:29
not sure. Ah, We
21:31
don't have a home. Yeah for the
21:33
and we need a home in the
21:35
South East. Aerial Okay we been in
21:37
Birmingham a number of years. Words: they
21:39
get what Atlanta arm were looking for
21:41
a home. So if you know of
21:43
a church sick hold that least three
21:46
thousand p people. Possess. or
21:48
look an hour or so we
21:50
don't outgrow it right away and
21:52
ah with with a staff that is
21:54
and it is interested in what we
21:56
do and it's really important that we
21:59
have top-down buy-in from the
22:01
staff. It's a big event and it's
22:03
a great feather in the church's cap.
22:06
We'd love to talk with them about
22:08
that event coming up and
22:10
about having a home in
22:13
about a year for
22:16
our next reality. So if you have
22:19
some ideas about that or
22:21
have a church where you're
22:23
interested in that, contact Dawn
22:25
Yell D-A-W-N-I-E-L-L-E Dawn
22:28
Yell at
22:32
str.org. Dawn Yell
22:34
at str.org. And
22:38
all the information that we have for next
22:40
year's reality, it's going to be a focus
22:42
on the Word of God and the theme
22:44
is, It is Written
22:48
and the website will be live
22:50
May 14. Okay, May
22:52
14 realityapologetics.com. And incidentally, we also
22:54
need a Southern California home for
22:56
the fall of 25. Not the
22:59
fall of 24, we got
23:01
that covered, we'll be at
23:03
Biola. But the fall of
23:05
25, we need a home there too
23:07
in Southern Cal. Okay, same idea. Big
23:10
church and
23:13
ideally around 3,000 or something like
23:16
that with classrooms.
23:19
Four breakouts, 10 breakouts is what
23:21
we characteristically have. So take that 3,000 divided by
23:23
10, you see the size of room
23:26
that we have. We need rooms
23:28
that hold 300 people, something like that depending on the
23:31
actual numbers, but you get the idea. Once
23:33
again, Dawn Yell at str.org.
23:35
Alright, let's go to
23:37
Nancy in Ontario, Canada.
23:40
Nancy, welcome to Stand to Reason. Hi
23:43
Greg, so appreciate you taking
23:45
my call. I appreciate your
23:47
wise counsel. Thank you. Question
23:49
for you, could you
23:52
suggest two to three starter questions
23:55
to ask a prospective
23:57
speaker that
23:59
we would be in to a youth retreat.
24:03
So we're just trying to get a sense of
24:06
denominational differences or anything like that
24:08
but more so just with the
24:10
various progressive leanings
24:13
of some how we
24:15
could ascertain. Sure okay this is
24:17
good. So your
24:19
concern is maybe bringing someone in who's
24:21
a little bit too progressive is that
24:24
right? Yeah exactly. Well
24:26
I think a couple
24:28
of really obvious questions. Well maybe here's the
24:31
best way for me to frame this and
24:33
that is the way in the past
24:36
I have suggested things to look for
24:38
in a Christian school, Christian
24:41
University alright and there
24:43
were five things and I mean it used
24:46
to be four then they became five and then they
24:48
changed order a little bit because the culture shifted but
24:50
these are the kinds of things that they're most important
24:52
to find out okay. First is their
24:55
understanding of the gospel okay
24:58
and to put it in simple
25:00
terms is Jesus the only way and
25:03
does that mean you have to believe in
25:05
Jesus? Now this is called exclusivism. Is
25:08
Jesus not only the exclusive means
25:10
to salvation but does someone
25:12
need to actually put their faith in
25:14
Jesus to benefit from Jesus? Because
25:17
there is a teaching called inclusivism that's
25:19
going on. You have religious pluralism that
25:21
says all religions are equally valid paths
25:24
to God. Then you have inclusivism
25:27
which is a it's kind of
25:29
a Christian hybrid of pluralism. It
25:32
says well Jesus is necessary in
25:35
order to pay for sins but you
25:37
don't have to believe in Him to benefit from Him and
25:39
that's the view of the Roman Catholic Church now and
25:41
some others as well. So I'm just you just
25:43
want to find out we're
25:46
training kids right? We
25:48
want them to have the truth the most important
25:50
truth that is the truth of the gospel. What
25:53
is that? What is that truth
25:55
of the gospel? Okay and
25:57
so that that
25:59
would be the first thing. The second thing is an
26:02
understanding of the nature of the of
26:04
the revelation that we call the Word
26:06
of God. Do the
26:08
Bible, do they believe it is the Word of God?
26:10
And if they do believe it is the Word of
26:12
God, what do they mean when they say that? And
26:15
what I'm looking for, and by the way you can you
26:18
can form these
26:20
questions any way you want, but here's the I'm
26:22
just giving you the raw substance. And
26:26
I'm looking for something akin
26:28
to inerrancy. We can
26:31
trust the Bible because God says it so.
26:34
God's speaking through these writers
26:37
and chapter and verse,
26:39
jot and tittle, that kind of thing, the Word
26:41
of God can't be broken, so we can trust
26:43
what it teaches to be the truth. That's
26:47
the view of the Bible that's I
26:49
think really critical. Okay, okay
26:51
the next one, let's see, I have
26:53
one, two, three. The next three are
26:55
kind of cultural issues that are issues
26:57
now. I used to be be concerned
27:00
about theistic evolution and
27:03
I'm not as concerned about that as
27:05
I used to be, all right? And
27:08
it's because other two other things have have
27:11
moved above that in terms
27:13
of primacy. And one
27:15
of those is the the view of
27:19
sex and gender and
27:21
marriage and homosexuality in particular. And
27:24
the problematic view
27:27
is anything that approaches being
27:31
theologically gay affirming. All
27:35
right, and there are tons and tons and tons of
27:37
Christian groups out there that are like that. Okay,
27:42
and we don't want and are affirming
27:45
therefore in this kind of
27:47
flexible sexual category affirming of
27:50
same-sex marriage and then affirming
27:52
of gender dysphoria
27:55
or gender transgenderism maybe.
28:00
dysphoria, that's a problem, but they would say
28:02
the solution is transgenderism. So you don't want
28:04
any of that confusing your kids. They're going
28:06
to get so much of that in the
28:09
world already, wherever they go, they can't avoid
28:11
it. And so we want
28:13
to make sure that they have a clear
28:15
understanding of this, of what
28:18
God's Word says. I have a talk that
28:21
I give, I used to call it, that
28:23
faithfulness is not theologically difficult.
28:27
And I have a little yellow posted tab I'm
28:29
looking at right now on the inside of my
28:31
Bible where, you know, during a show I got
28:33
so frustrated, I just wrote that down. Why are
28:35
people confused on these things? The Bible is very
28:38
clear. Now the talk is called, because that's not
28:40
a very good title for a
28:42
talk, faithfulness is not theologically difficult. I just
28:44
call it five easy issues. And
28:47
those easy issues are religious pluralism,
28:50
abortion, gender, sex,
28:53
and marriage. You know, yes, easy, right?
28:55
Well, they are. Textually, they're easy. And
28:57
I want people to be confident on
29:01
what the Bible teaches about these things because they're
29:04
not ambiguous. And
29:06
so that's kind of part of what
29:08
I'm talking about here regarding these qualifications
29:10
for the speaker. Are
29:12
we on the same page here? Yes, absolutely.
29:14
You got that. We're
29:17
looking for. I do. Yeah. So that's one,
29:19
two, three I got. Yeah. Okay. So the
29:21
odd one, put
29:25
it at the end, just the theistic evolution. It's
29:28
not as weighty as these other
29:30
concerns are. And so the fourth
29:32
one then would be things
29:35
related to very broadly wokeness
29:38
or critical theory. Or
29:41
equity, diversity, equity, and inclusion,
29:43
DEI. I mean, these are
29:45
broader categories, but it's just
29:47
a way of looking
29:49
at the world that is descended
29:52
upon Christianity aggressively.
29:55
And many people have bought into it because
29:57
they care about justice. And so they hear
29:59
the word. social justice and
30:01
they think, well, that's what Jesus was all
30:04
about, which is not true, but
30:06
nevertheless, they care about justice and so they're
30:08
taken in by a counterfeit
30:12
understanding of justice and a worldview that
30:15
is at odds with the
30:17
Christian worldview. And
30:19
that's where, you know, I'm not even sure how to ask
30:22
the question, but it has to do
30:25
with that
30:28
broad category. Critical theory, it shows
30:31
up in race issues, it shows up
30:34
in sexual issues, it shows up in
30:36
women's issues. These are all subsets of
30:38
critical theory, which basically
30:41
pits one group against another and
30:44
the powerful group is always the bad one and
30:46
the weaker group is always the good one.
30:49
I mean, in fact, they can't even be
30:51
bad because they're the weaker group, they're the
30:53
oppressed group. That's why they say that blacks
30:55
can't be, or people of
30:57
color in general, can't be racist. They
30:59
just can't because of
31:01
the power relationship. Anyway,
31:04
so you don't want any of
31:06
that stuff being brought into the
31:08
kids. So those are the five
31:11
things I'd put theistic evolution at the
31:13
very end. But if he's not dealing
31:15
with evolutionary issues and maybe
31:17
he's sympathetic to theistic evolution, I'm not going
31:20
to really fuss about that.
31:22
The other ones are critical in the
31:24
order that I offered and
31:26
that is who is Jesus and the work
31:28
of the cross and what's necessary. Religious
31:31
pluralism, the second one is the
31:33
authority of the Bible. The third
31:35
one has to do with the
31:37
sexual matters, especially homosexuality. And
31:40
the fourth one has to do with critical
31:42
theory and the whole woke business. And then
31:44
the final one is theistic evolution. It's really
31:46
trailing off the back end compared to these
31:49
other four. Got it. Okay.
31:52
And by the way, since this is the foil
31:54
that I use for
32:00
trying to decide whether a
32:03
school is genuinely true
32:05
blue and a safe place to go. I don't
32:07
actually do that. I
32:10
had it on my notes to do a show on
32:12
that or do a commentary on that as I do
32:14
once a year. But I've kind of given up because
32:16
there's too many Christian
32:18
schools that have compromised in a lot of
32:20
areas. So now I
32:22
say, look, don't look for a school
32:24
that's got, when you think about sending
32:26
your kid to a Christian school, don't
32:29
think that this school, though it
32:31
claims to be Christian, is going to be true blue in
32:33
all these areas. You gotta have your guard up,
32:35
okay? Just think of a Christian school as
32:37
a school with a lot of Christians go
32:39
to. Yeah, exactly.
32:41
Okay, make no assumptions. Number
32:44
four, can I just go back to you for a second? Could
32:46
you ask a question related to
32:48
sin in
32:50
terms of, I was just
32:52
thinking you'd said, they're
32:55
wanting justice and they see it as the
32:59
group in power versus the oppressed
33:02
group. Is there a question
33:04
that you can ask specific to, it's
33:07
not an oppressor
33:09
problem, it's a sin problem, or is there a
33:11
way to? I think that, I
33:15
think the way that I'd wanna, I'd
33:18
wanna ask this question is, what
33:20
do you, I guess, and again, I'm just
33:22
off the top of my head, so I may
33:24
wanna work on this, but I might ask something
33:26
like, what is your understanding of social justice and
33:28
the role that it has with
33:30
Christians? That's kind of
33:33
a loaded term. What I
33:35
wanna hear is, I wanna hear, well,
33:37
this is a misleading phrase, because
33:40
in critical theory, social justice is
33:44
the means of salvation. It's
33:46
salvation on this earth, there's not salvation afterward,
33:48
this is the way, but social justice, in
33:51
my view, is just simply paybacks. That's
33:54
all it amounts to, is paybacks. I mean,
33:57
this is what you saw, look, in South
33:59
Africa, had apartheid. for a long time and
34:01
then it got reversed. And now all they did
34:03
is turn the whole thing upside down and entirely
34:05
different. The oppressed group is now in power and
34:07
it's oppressing those that used to be in power.
34:11
And this happens all the time. So
34:13
it just goes from one kind of oppression to
34:15
another. And as I look
34:17
at social justice, I see that
34:20
as the antidote is just
34:22
paybacks. Now, I think there are legitimate ways of
34:25
cashing some of those concepts
34:31
out, but we have to be very careful about it.
34:34
So maybe that's the kind of question just to
34:36
test them a little bit. What are you thinking
34:39
about diversity,
34:42
equity, and inclusion? What's your view? You
34:44
might use that DEI. And
34:48
keep in mind that diversity is for
34:50
diversity's sake. And equity
34:52
means not equal treatment, but equal
34:54
consequence. You don't begin in the
34:58
same place, you end in the same place. This
35:01
is an equitable why because
35:03
they have more than somebody
35:05
else has. So it's
35:07
a distortion of
35:09
equality. And
35:12
you have to surrender. I mean, there's
35:14
a lot of detail involved in these
35:16
concepts now, but you have to surrender.
35:22
Very foundational understandings of liberty
35:25
in order to impose the equity
35:27
that those people have
35:31
in mind on the culture.
35:33
And it's very dangerous. But in any event,
35:35
I mean, people absorb these words and they get some
35:37
of the concepts and they're kind of taken with them
35:40
and they think they're cool. And they don't understand the
35:42
philosophic background and where these things are going and what
35:46
these things are actually teaching. So I mean,
35:48
that's something like that is what I'd ask
35:52
maybe. Okay. So justice and equity, diversity,
35:54
equity, inclusion. They don't talk about critical
35:57
theory anymore. nobody
36:00
teaches that. Well that's nonsense. They
36:19
just do it under a different name.
36:21
I mean it's all over the place
36:23
now everywhere. This is something that
36:25
you're going to hire or is this somebody who's
36:27
just going to speak for an event? Just
36:30
for an event. I see. And where is
36:32
the event at? I see you're in Ontario, right?
36:34
Yeah, just outside
36:37
of Toronto. Well you might
36:39
consider Tim Barnett because he
36:41
lives in town there. You
36:44
know what? We actually have. We have
36:46
no doubt to him. We have reached
36:48
out to him. So that'll be for
36:50
a different event. We have a few
36:52
of them upcoming. So we have
36:55
him on a request as well. I see.
36:57
Okay. Well he's a true blue. And you
36:59
might even check with him because he might know some
37:01
other people in the area that would
37:03
be good candidates for this other event
37:05
that you're planning right now. Okay, fantastic. I
37:07
think you've got him busy running around the
37:09
two countries. But
37:12
I'll see if he has some ideas as well. Yeah,
37:15
okay. I actually had lunch with him
37:17
today. So he's in town. I wanted
37:20
him to come on the show. But he
37:22
said, well, I got my whole family here. And everybody's
37:24
going to be mad at me if I don't take
37:26
them out, you know, wherever we're going. And do the
37:28
fun things that we're planning to do. Say, okay, I
37:30
won't fuss about it. But
37:33
you know, he's learned that I'm sure.
37:35
Yeah, well, he's fun to be with.
37:37
And he's a great communicator. Anyway,
37:39
he'll have some ideas, I'm sure. Or let me
37:41
back up. If he doesn't, if he does have
37:44
some ideas, they're going to be people you can
37:46
trust. Let's put it that way. Yeah,
37:48
okay. All right. Thank you
37:50
for your time. All right. Bye bye. Now. Thanks. Let's
37:53
see. Is it time for another break here?
37:55
Yep. Oh, sorry. I should have pushed your button so she
37:58
didn't click off. Okay, let's take a quick break and then. And
38:00
we'll come back with a couple of
38:02
questions, open mic questions.
38:04
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39:57
we're going to go to some open mic
39:59
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40:01
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40:04
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40:18
So the number that you can call is 857-342-5787. 857-342-5787 or
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But the preferred way according to Amy is
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and then on the
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and then under podcasts live
40:45
broadcast live broadcast and
40:48
then follow the prompts. Okay this
40:50
is from Tom Poitner and
40:52
it's about the covenants. So Tom?
40:58
Hey Greg, Tom Poitner here.
41:01
Hi Tom. I'm from Winfield, Illinois
41:03
and in one of your recent
41:05
STR Ask
41:07
podcasts you had said that
41:09
Christianity is the fulfillment of
41:12
covenantal Judaism. Now I've got
41:14
a dear friend, one of my best
41:16
friends, who along with his family have a real heart for
41:19
Jewish believers and as such they have
41:21
adopted many of the more traditional Jewish
41:25
practices, festivals, strict
41:27
Sabbath observance, Friday nights,
41:29
Shabbat dinners, and
41:31
we've had many discussions with regards to
41:33
their, I'm gonna call it a soft
41:36
conversion to Judaism even though they are
41:38
completely devoted to Jesus and I really
41:40
don't question their belief in
41:42
Christ. All that to
41:45
say my question is is that
41:47
if Christianity truly is the fulfillment
41:50
of covenantal Judaism then why don't
41:52
all Christians embrace truly
41:54
Jewish traditions as my friend has?
41:57
Now I'm pretty sure that your response would
42:00
be that that's because we are under the
42:02
new covenant and not the old one. And
42:04
I think that my friend would say that
42:06
the new covenant did not do away with
42:09
the old covenant or invalidated it anyway, but
42:11
rather it completed it and fulfilled
42:13
it and that we should thus practice Judaism
42:16
as Jesus did. So I'm not
42:18
really sure how best to think about this and
42:20
I would love to hear your thoughts. Thank
42:22
you Greg, blessings. Well
42:25
thanks for that question Tom and it's a
42:27
fair question although the
42:29
response that you offered that you
42:32
anticipate your friend would have
42:35
used is frustrating to hear.
42:37
The old covenant is
42:40
the old covenant. The new
42:42
covenant is the new covenant. The
42:45
way that Christianity is a fulfillment of
42:49
covenantal Judaism is that we
42:52
are entering into the
42:54
reality and the details
42:58
of the new covenant
43:00
prophesied in Jeremiah
43:02
and Ezekiel. And it's interesting the
43:05
way Jeremiah puts the words here.
43:09
The way he introduces it's Jeremiah
43:11
31 and 31 and
43:13
following. And he says
43:15
here, Behold the days are coming declares the
43:17
Lord when I
43:19
will make a new
43:21
covenant with the house of Israel
43:23
and with the house of Judah. Now
43:27
just the fact, I'm just pausing for a
43:29
moment here, just the fact that he identifies
43:31
the covenant as a new one suggests
43:37
a replacement. That
43:39
one, there's an old one that is
43:41
now being replaced by new. Just the
43:44
language by itself suggests that. Okay
43:47
but it's more than just the language of new and
43:49
old. It gets more
43:51
explicit. Verse
43:54
32, Not like the covenant
43:57
which I made with their fathers in the
43:59
day I took them by the hand to
44:01
bring them out of the land of Egypt. Which
44:04
covenant is that? That's the Mosaic. A
44:08
covenant which they broke. So
44:11
that covenant is broken, is
44:14
what Jeremiah is saying here. There was
44:16
an old covenant that I gave to Moses,
44:18
to the people. They broke that covenant.
44:21
I'm going to give you a new
44:23
one. That one's broken. This one's new.
44:27
The covenant which they broke. I'm
44:33
looking for my spot here. Although
44:37
I was a husband to them declares the Lord. But this
44:40
is the covenant which I will make with the house of
44:42
Israel. After those days I will put my law within them
44:44
and on their heart I will write it and I will
44:46
be their God and they shall believe that people etc.
44:49
etc. And
44:51
Ezekiel talks more about that and the giving
44:54
of the Spirit. Now when Jesus at
44:57
the Last Supper had the Last Supper,
44:59
he said, this is
45:01
my body and this is the blood of
45:03
the new covenant which
45:07
will be broken and shed for
45:10
you. He may have said
45:13
for the forgiveness of sins but that's mentioned
45:15
in other passages in the New Testament as
45:17
characteristic of the new covenant which
45:19
is what Jeremiah is
45:21
saying here in Jeremiah 31, 31 and
45:23
following. Now
45:26
when you read the book of Hebrews, the book
45:28
of Hebrews makes it also clear. By
45:31
the way when a thing is fulfilled that means it's
45:33
fulfilled. This
45:35
doesn't become like a way of getting back
45:38
to the old law. Okay,
45:40
well Jesus did get rid of
45:42
the old law. He fulfilled it. Yes, but
45:44
if it's fulfilled then it's fulfilled. It
45:48
does not function in the same way that
45:50
it used to and that
45:52
is the reason the book of Hebrews is written
45:55
to show us that the function of the
45:57
law is different. I should say the function.
46:00
of the law is passé, or the
46:02
law does not function in our
46:04
lives at all anymore. And
46:06
in one verse, I'm just going from memory here, I
46:09
think it says, what is
46:12
talking about the shadow of the things to
46:14
come and that it's passing away. So
46:18
as a way to relate to
46:20
God, the
46:24
law no longer serves that
46:27
purpose. Now,
46:32
what happened very soon after the
46:34
book of Hebrews was written, the temple
46:36
was destroyed. The
46:39
entire mosaic system
46:41
was built around the temple. When
46:44
the temple gets destroyed, that shows
46:46
you cannot keep the mosaic law
46:48
anymore. It's not possible anymore. You
46:50
have to make adjustments as the
46:52
Jews have done. So
46:56
when I say that the Christianity
47:00
is truly a fulfillment
47:02
of covenantal Judaism, we
47:05
are operating in the New Covenant, which
47:07
is a Jewish covenant that the Gentiles
47:09
have been grafted into. So
47:13
it is the next step of
47:15
Jewish covenantal religious practice. You have
47:17
the Old Covenant and then we
47:20
transfer into, forget about Gentiles for
47:22
a moment, just leave Gentiles completely
47:24
out of the picture. What
47:27
we call Christianity is just
47:29
Judaism. It's Judaism,
47:33
New Covenant Judaism, that's
47:35
all. But if it's New Covenant Judaism
47:37
that we're living in, then we're not
47:39
living in Old Covenant Judaism. Now,
47:43
that doesn't mean that there's
47:46
anything wrong with practicing the feasts
47:48
and doing a lot of things
47:51
that were characteristic of the culture of
47:53
Israel, reflecting on and remembering God.
47:56
But they are not obligatory. like
48:01
they were under the Old
48:03
Covenant. They are
48:05
things that still could be practiced. But
48:08
you did say they are strict
48:11
Sabbath keepers. I'm
48:13
not sure exactly about how
48:15
that plays itself
48:17
out. To consistently
48:19
keep the Sabbath, if this is their
48:22
desire, fine. If they're thinking
48:24
there's a moral obligation to do it in
48:26
a very precise way and they are careful
48:29
to do it precisely that way so
48:31
they can fulfill their moral obligation then
48:33
their misunderstanding. The
48:37
relationship of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.
48:40
You want to worship on Friday
48:43
sundown to Saturday sundown and take that day
48:45
off and make that for the Lord? Fine.
48:48
Paul says as much in Colossians. Some people think
48:50
one day above the other. Some consider that I'm
48:52
all the same. Whatever. So
48:59
it's fine to continue
49:01
to practice those things and there are
49:03
satyrs that I know Christian people who
49:05
are not Jewish that
49:08
will practice that and
49:10
Jewish Christians who perform
49:12
satyrs in non-Jewish Christian's homes
49:14
to help them understand how
49:16
the satyr gives a beautiful
49:18
picture of Christ there on
49:20
Passover. That's fabulous. If
49:23
you're viewing it as an obligation though this
49:25
is not that's
49:28
not biblically sound because
49:30
it's not an obligation. That
49:33
system of relating to God is
49:35
now been replaced by a new
49:37
system. In fact, going back
49:39
to the Jeremiah passage, they will not teach
49:41
again each man his neighbor and each man
49:44
his brother saying know the Lord for they
49:46
will all know me from the
49:48
least of them to the greatest of them because
49:50
the Lord for I will forgive their iniquity and
49:53
their sin I will remember no more.
49:56
In other words, there is a complete and
49:59
permanent forgiveness of sin that
50:03
is characteristic of the New
50:05
Covenant. I mentioned earlier about the
50:07
Bible fast-forward. That's
50:11
a course that helps you to see the
50:13
way the relationship is between these
50:15
two. I just don't... it's
50:19
crazy... I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't use that word.
50:21
It just frustrates me when somebody says, oh yeah,
50:23
well Jesus fulfilled the law. That means we have
50:25
to still live in the law. He
50:28
didn't do away with the law. He fulfilled it. Yes,
50:31
the law is no longer effective in our life,
50:33
not because it's been done away with, but because
50:35
it's been fulfilled. And once it's fulfilled, that's it.
50:38
There is no further legal obligation
50:41
that we have regarding that law.
50:45
And when I say Christianity is
50:48
the fulfillment of covenantal Judaism, I'm
50:50
saying that Christianity is the word
50:52
that we use to describe New
50:54
Covenant Judaism. And also we
50:57
have a clearer picture that the Gentiles are
50:59
now grafted into the New Covenant. It's
51:02
always part of the plan right from the
51:04
beginning with Abraham in Genesis 12, but there
51:09
is a much more explicit characterization of that
51:11
plan. My spirit I
51:13
will pour out on all men, the prophecy
51:16
from the book of Joel that's cited
51:18
in Acts chapter 2 and Pentecost Sunday.
51:21
Okay, so these things are, there was a
51:23
progression. You move from
51:25
one to the other. So
51:30
it's funny to me if I say that
51:33
Christianity is the fulfillment of covenantal
51:36
Judaism, that somehow this
51:38
suggests that I ought to be
51:40
arguing we should go back and
51:42
do the old system with Jews.
51:45
Quite the contrary. It's
51:49
the fulfillment of that. It's the next step.
51:51
You go from old to new. Not
51:54
like the one that I gave you when
51:56
you came out of Egypt when I rescued
51:58
you. That one that you... you broke,
52:01
but here's one you can't break. It's
52:04
the New Covenant, a totally different provision.
52:08
The book of Hebrews is a
52:10
remarkable theological
52:14
treatise to
52:16
make this point really clear.
52:20
The point is, the
52:23
oldest is older than the newest is new. You
52:26
have Jesus now who's a better priest.
52:28
He's not a Levitical priest. After the
52:30
order of Melchizedek, you
52:33
have Jesus' sacrifice, which is a better
52:35
sacrifice. It's not the sacrifice of blood
52:37
and bulls and goats, which
52:40
can never take away sin. But
52:43
instead, he says when he comes into the world, sacrifice
52:47
you have not desired, but a body you
52:50
have prepared for me. What
52:54
for? Because the blood of bulls
52:56
and goats can't take away sin. That's the old system.
52:59
Now we have the perfect. When the perfect comes, the
53:01
partial is gone. I'm paraphrasing
53:03
there from, I think, Hebrews 10, but maybe
53:05
I should just look it up. When
53:08
the perfect comes, the partial is gone. It's
53:10
passing away. That's the point. So
53:13
we are just kind of, as Gentiles,
53:17
climbing on for the ride, as
53:19
it were, of the plan
53:21
that God had for Israel all along, to leave
53:23
one behind and to come out with the new.
53:27
And that's why we call it the new covenant. And
53:31
it's contrasted with the old. Now
53:33
Jesus makes a point, obviously, in Matthew 5,
53:36
that you
53:38
can't do away with the law.
53:41
And I remember Jesus is speaking
53:43
under an old covenant system until
53:46
he initiates the new covenant system,
53:50
in one sense, at his last supper, but formally
53:53
at the cross and then
53:55
inaugurating that system on Pentecost.
53:58
So events are strung together. as
54:01
this transition is taking place. Okay?
54:05
And it's Jesus'
54:07
body that is now
54:10
the perfect sacrifice that the blood of bulls
54:12
and goats used
54:15
to at least fill
54:18
in for, so to speak, temporarily.
54:22
And the Jewish
54:24
nation was supposed to move in
54:26
this direction, leaving the old behind.
54:29
Jesus says you cannot, in Matthew
54:31
5, you know, you can't do away with the law.
54:34
He's speaking under that system, but he's trying to show
54:36
the guilt that everybody has. No,
54:39
you can't just get rid of the law. The law makes
54:41
its demand on you, and it makes a bigger demand
54:44
than you thought. Don't
54:46
commit murder. Didn't do that. Do
54:48
you ever call your brother a fool? Yeah. Well,
54:51
then you're going to hell. That's
54:53
what the law demands. That's
54:55
Jesus. Don't commit adultery.
54:57
Haven't done that. Did you ever think about
55:00
it? Yeah, you're
55:03
going to hell. That's Jesus.
55:05
So what he's doing there is he's saying
55:07
the law cannot just
55:10
simply be dismissed. It
55:13
demands, moral demands,
55:15
weigh on you heavier than you
55:17
thought. Now, there
55:20
is a way out, and that's
55:22
when the law is fulfilled through
55:24
Jesus, and
55:27
that fulfillment then moves.
55:30
He keeps the law perfectly
55:32
and then suffers under the law, as
55:34
it were, as the
55:36
perfect sacrifice so that we can
55:39
die to the law. That's
55:43
what Romans identifies.
55:46
Just like if you were betrothed
55:49
or you're married to someone, there
55:53
has to be a death before you can be
55:55
married to somebody else, right, until death do us part. Well,
55:57
that's the way it was with the law. We have died
55:59
to it. the law. Now we
56:01
can be betrothed to Christ in the new covenant.
56:04
Why? Because the law is gone. So
56:07
it's just in
56:09
a certain sense,
56:11
frustrating to hear these kinds of
56:13
characterizations, Tom, of why
56:15
we should keep in the
56:18
old system when that
56:21
reflects, I think, a lack of understanding of
56:23
what the new was meant to do. There
56:26
are many aspects of that that we are free to
56:28
participate in. You're not going to do the sacrifices
56:31
anymore, anything akin to that, because the
56:33
final sacrifice has been made and the
56:35
temple has been destroyed. All
56:37
right, so that's out. You want to keep
56:40
Passover? You want to keep Shabbat? Oh, great!
56:43
Do it! Knock yourself out. You want to
56:45
do Hanukkah? Great! There could
56:47
be all kinds of celebration that one participates in
56:49
if they want, Jewish or
56:51
Gentile. But if
56:53
you make the old law the substance of
56:55
our behavior and relation
56:58
to God, that somehow the new just gets
57:00
added on top of the
57:02
old, then that's confused. The
57:06
new replaces the old, and
57:10
it's able to replace the old
57:12
because the old gets its perfect
57:14
fulfillment in the person of Jesus.
57:16
There you go. Hope that helps, Tom. Thank you
57:18
for the question. Greg Coeckel here for
57:20
Stand to Reason. Give them a hand, friends.
57:22
Bye-bye.
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