0:04

welcome to the sports science dudes. I'm your host, dr jose antonio, with my co-host, dr tony ricci, um find us.

0:10

You can find us on spotify, apple podcast, rumble and youtube.

0:14

Our special guest today is dr jay dawes.

0:17

He's an associate. Are you an associate or full professor?

0:20

um, I am an associate for another few months, I think.

0:22

Oh he will soon be a full prof of applied exercise science at Oklahoma State University the Oklahoma State Cowboys, it is.

0:33

So Jay has worked as a university athletic performance coordinator, strength coach, personal trainer and educator for about holy shit years I know, joey, it's shocking buddy I.

0:48

I feel like I've known you longer than 25 years.

0:52

Yeah, you've known me about that long so, holy geez, okay, well, we're all getting old, son of a bitch.

0:58

Um, jay also frequently coaches and provides sports science support to numerous elite and professional teams, as well as law enforcement and we'll talk about law enforcement, fire and military groups.

1:09

His main research interests are focused on improving the health, fitness and human performance for the tactical athletes, first responders as well as sport athletes.

1:18

Now, before we get to Jay, tony we were talking before jay came on about the issn conference.

1:25

I want to promote it in june 18, 19 and 20 just so people know that is a tuesday, wednesday, thursday, so it gives people the opportunity to take the entire week off, which I think, which most people are doing, and it'll be in beautiful bonita springs, florida, at the hyatt.

1:41

So, um, if Jay happens to show up, which you know, you have kids right.

1:46

I do, you know they would love it, because the hotel has a slide, it has a lazy river and if you walk through the woods you hit the beach.

1:55

Um, and in fact that's what most of the adults are doing, so they won't even be at the conference.

2:00

I was gonna say like that all sounds really good to me, not just kids.

2:03

But um, you know another thing?

2:07

Um, did you know that?

2:09

And I was finding these uh interesting things about oklahoma.

2:13

Um, do you know most college students can't even find oklahoma on a map?

2:17

Did you know that? It's right in the middle?

2:19

I'm not really sure. Well, it's like just go a little north of the radar right, go north of the red river and there you are.

2:24

I'm not really sure. Well, it's like you got a pretty good chance of hitting it.

2:27

Just go a little north of the radar right, go north of the Red River, and there you are, exactly.

2:30

I've spent a lot of time there and actually it's one of my favorite places because I find it to be some of the best people in the country.

2:36

And I mean that, man, the Oklahoma people are good people, man, true.

2:40

I mean, I'll tell you what. We moved away for about 13 years and you know, leaving your home state and then coming back you get a different appreciation for it.

2:49

But yeah, as you said it's, you know, the people here are pretty hard to beat.

2:52

They really are like just good down home.

2:54

People Wait, you were.

3:06

You moved to Corpus Christi, texas, for another three years, back to Colorado for six years and then Oklahoma in 2019.

3:14

Were you always trying to get back to Oklahoma?

3:17

Was that the plan? No man.

3:19

So, honestly, I actually did my master's and PhD at Oklahoma State.

3:23

So, you know, back 26-7 years ago, I mean, the dream job was to actually work here.

3:29

And then I was told like hey, not many people actually get to work at their alma mater.

3:33

So I kind of dismissed that a little bit and so, yeah, I mean, when we were in Colorado for the last stint that I was there, I kind of thought that was gonna be the last stop on the J-Dawes train, honestly.

3:46

And then, lo and behold, the opportunity came up here and you know, I grew up about 40 minutes from here and our family farm is out there.

3:55

So you know, it's one of those things where it's out there, and so you've got a chance to come back home and we actually live on a farm now so I have a proper compound and uh, yeah, it's, it's been good you know going and when you, when you're trying to get a job in academia, things like hey, you can't, you probably won't get a job at a place you got your degree.

4:18

Um, one of the ones I ran into way back when, in fact, myself and jeff stout was once you work in industry, they'll never, never let you back in academia.

4:26

There's all of these sort of weird. These are the unwritten rules of academia that someone has made up and people believe in.

4:32

It's like it's such BS. It's like wait a minute, if you're the best person interviewing, then they're going to take you, whether or not you got your degree there.

4:39

Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but both you and Dr Stout are back in academia.

4:43

Yeah. So, it's funny how that works out.

4:48

That's the one thing we talk about universities a lot is.

4:50

Somebody at one point said man for smart people.

4:53

You know, sometimes we don't always know everything we think, and it was like we're not smart people, we're content experts.

4:57

There's a big difference.

5:00

We're content experts and we are skeptical, curious and persistent, exactly.

5:07

Hey, you know, before we get to some of the cool stuff you do, did you know?

5:17

And I don't know if this is true but you're an Oklahoma native.

5:20

Watermelon is officially declared a vegetable in Oklahoma. Is that true? That is something I was not well aware of.

5:24

I actually have to dispute that. Well, I'm looking at my roots and all, but I'm like I'm. They actually have to dispute that.

5:27

Well, I'm looking at my roots and all, but I'm like I'm not sure how I feel about that.

5:29

It does have seeds, so it has to be a fruit right.

5:33

I'm tracking with that, tony Exactly, and I didn't know this the name Oklahoma comes from the Choctaw Indian words for people and red.

5:42

I didn't know I'm not getting the red part.

5:45

Is it red dirt out there? I mean red what? Oh, we definitely have a fair amount of red dirt oh, okay, very cool.

5:51

Okay. Well, the audience is learning some fun stuff about oklahoma, but we want jay to edify us on.

5:58

It seems like you focus, at least academically, on looking at the tactical athlete population.

6:04

Is that correct? Yes, for sure. Okay, tony and I we've had actually a few guests who talk about the tactical athlete stuff.

6:12

We had Annette, which I think wait a minute, wait a minute, is Annette?

6:16

Is she moving to Oklahoma? Not only is Annette moving to Oklahoma.

6:20

We just helped out with a walkthrough on her house, which is about a few minutes from our house.

6:26

Fantastic. Yeah, I've already warned her.

6:28

I'm like, look like so when I'm out on my farm, you're going to have to realize you're going to see some stuff.

6:33

I may be cruising across the yard in like cowboy boots and, you know, shorts, but whatever, it's great.

6:43

You know what that sounds like Florida, but in oklahoma it's not dissimilar, actually believe it or not.

6:49

So there's more red dirt here, less than we need, uh, there needs to be like an oklahoma man meme, the way there is a florida man meme yeah, that's, uh.

6:59

That's a good retirement plan for me, bro all right, let's, uh, let's talk tactical athlete stuff.

7:04

Um, I guess, first for people who don't follow the category you know academically, or even just they're interested in it, define it for the audience so that it's you know, because it seems like we're putting together such different occupations yeah, for sure.

7:21

I mean, I think you know the the easiest way to explain it is you know it's the occupational athlete, so it's people who have physically demanding jobs.

7:28

But more specifically, when we talk about tactical, it's going to be that first responder military space.

7:33

So, looking at your law enforcement officers, firefighters, paramedics and military soldiers are really the primary group when you talk about the tactical athlete now I'm going to take a uh, I guess a football analogy.

7:50

If we go back to and you're aware of this history, if you go back really to the 1970s, there wasn't really strength conditioning for football, and then it wasn't really and I don't know if I have my dates perfectly correct wasn't until the late 80s, early 90ss, when the University of Nebraska college football team decided you know what Lifting weights seems to be good?

8:08

Yeah, we seem to get bigger and stronger.

8:12

So this is kind of interesting. So fast forward to now.

8:15

Every college program lifts weights, right, even the rowing team, the cheerleading team everybody lifts weights.

8:22

We know lifting weights is good for you. Leading team everybody lifts weights, we know lifting weights is good for you.

8:28

However, it's become so specialized that now you just have strength coaches for football, but even strength coaches for positions in football, strength coaches just for swimming, strength coaches just for track and field, and so the reason I'm bringing that up is when you look at the tactical population let's take military versus police, where you're doing different things I mean, I'm not even sure you can, I'm not even sure they're comparable.

8:50

So the tactical athlete strength conditioning community realized that really we got to separate these instead of just using this big generic term.

8:59

We're dealing just with police or law enforcement.

9:02

We're dealing just with military. Do you understand sort of where I'm coming with this?

9:06

Yeah for sure. Well, I mean, I think that's the thing is.

9:08

You know, if you look at it in general terms, like we're teaching them to function better as human beings, is really what it gets down to.

9:15

And I think you know the one thing that is very consistent across all those different occupations is you kind of have to be ready for anything, because anything may happen.

9:26

I mean, you know, I'll say this there's different, there's different constraints and there's different things that you would account for, such as, like you know, with a soldier, for instance, so they may have some degree of certainty about when they're going to go on a deployment, what their schedules may or may not look like, at least you know a little bit further advanced than maybe a law enforcement officer might.

9:46

Because, like I said, with a law enforcement officer, like as soon as they suit up, you know for the day, like I mean they could be in the fight for the life that afternoon, or they may be, you know, simply just pulling people over.

9:57

And you know writing, you know traffic tickets, so it's one of the things like the demand is so highly variable that I mean, kind of the stance was like, if you have to be ready for anything, we have to train you for everything.

10:08

And so you know, if you look at those different occupations, there are going to be some essential job tasks that are going to cross over between all the groups, like, for instance, like victim extraction, right.

10:21

So if you have a downed soldier, civilian firefighter, whatever it may be, you've got to be able to, you know, pick them up and drag them from point A to point B just to get them out of harm's way.

10:33

So that's going to be pretty consistent across the board.

10:35

So you know, across the board, some element of strength is going to be important.

10:39

You know, if you look at like a firefighter versus like a law enforcement officer, like, so a firefighter is going to, I mean, on the job, they're told you don't run, right, because you know, if you run on the wet stuff, there's a good chance you're going to slip and fall.

10:51

That's not a good Makes sense. Yeah, if you're an officer, then you know there is a good chance you're going to have to have a quick anaerobic burst where you're doing like quick sprints to, you know.

11:07

You know, maybe grab somebody who's not super compliant or willing to, you know, be be detained.

11:10

So it's a little bit more of an anaerobic job versus. You know, on the firefighting standpoint it's certainly anaerobic but it's a little bit more sustained durations and things like that.

11:15

And and that's kind of a wild generality, because you could always say, well, what about in this situation?

11:19

And you'd be right. I mean, it's one of those things where I think one of the easiest ways to explain is like, if you look at tactical athletes across the board, they're all going to have their specialty areas that you have to do a little bit more individualized training for.

11:32

But, similar to a sport athlete, we're training to be an athlete first and, with that being said, they almost need to be like the Catholics to some extent.

11:39

You don't need to be exceptional at anything, but you got to be pretty good at everything all the time in order to be operationally fit.

11:47

So I'm glad you said decathletes and not CrossFit people.

11:52

I'm not allowed to comment one way or the other. Yeah, and I think that's.

11:58

I think honestly, one of the reasons people gravitate to that style of training is because they do do a lot of diversity within the training, and which I mean certainly I would advocate for diversity within the training.

12:08

I think you know there's obviously you know, as long as you're following scientific principles of you know the basics like progression, overload, um, you know cyclical load demands and stuff like that.

12:19

So isn't that a little much?

12:21

When you explain this to, let's say, firefighters, I mean a lot of this must be like uh, jay, you're talking your vocabulary, we don't really care, we do not use that vocabulary okay.

12:35

So I mean it's so.

12:38

That's the thing is like. That's the good thing is like I have a good, you know, obviously a pretty decent base of friends that are not in the academic space, and it's okay.

12:47

I need to talk to you in human language.

12:49

That makes sense, you know.

12:51

So it's like, hey, dude, to keep you like more fit for what you have to do on the job and to make sure you can actually enjoy retirement.

12:56

Here's the things that I think are going to be important for you. Right.

13:00

Is there a? I mean, are there incentives that are built into these occupations to stay in shape?

13:05

Because I mean the average OK, the average person who's not in any of those occupations?

13:10

The individuals we would see the most are law enforcement.

13:13

We really don't see firefighters, we don't really see military, but we see law enforcement.

13:17

Yet it would seem that there's not an incentive to stay in shape.

13:22

Is that changing? Or you know what are your thoughts, oh man?

13:27

it's the wild west, honestly.

13:29

I mean it's awful to say, but I'll just say it.

13:35

If you walk into an agency depending on the group a lot of times it's like walking into a Walmart.

13:41

I mean you're going to see a, basically a cross section of the whole population.

13:46

You're going to be seeing some super fit people and you're going to see some people that got some stuff to work on and you know, as far as that goes, a lot of it is going to be agency, dependent on how much emphasis they put on fitness and how much they value it.

14:02

I think I think conceptually, everybody values it.

14:05

You know one of the things I've said in the past like they value it to a point but you know not enough to invest time, energy, effort or finances into it.

14:12

So that that is the challenge.

14:15

It's like you know some some agencies are willing and able to put those funds into it and others are not.

14:22

And I think you know that's the biggest challenge I've had is like you know you walk into some groups where you know they do have a lot of good resources and they can invest, you know, more money into keeping people fit for duty and things of that nature.

14:35

And then you know others where I mean they're scrambling just to, you know, fund the basics basically.

14:40

So, yeah, I mean it's more important.

14:44

Basics basically.

14:49

So, yeah, I mean it's more important. You know it is incentivized in some groups and others that's not so.

14:52

I will say this at once so to kind of back everybody up if they're not familiar with this process.

14:54

So like looking at law enforcement in particular, so a lot of times law enforcement officer, will you know, they become a pre-hire.

15:02

They go to an academy where they're cadets, they go through training where I mean typically they spend anywhere from 16 to 27 weeks training in order to become a law enforcement officer.

15:12

There's a huge element of fitness involved with it to where they're trying to get them as fit as they can.

15:17

So a lot of times when they leave academy they may be in the best shape of their life and then, unfortunately, a lot of agencies, that's where it stops Right.

15:24

So from that point forward, a lot of agencies don't have mandatory fitness tests.

15:29

A lot of them don't require really for you to pass any kind of, you know, fitness assessment to maintain job proficiency after you've completed Academy and, honestly, one of the main reasons for it, like, from a legal standpoint.

15:46

It's a disaster trying to put that in.

15:49

But you said from a legal standpoint it's a disaster.

15:52

Why is that? So well, all right, so let me pose a question.

15:56

So how many pushups do you need to do to be a good officer?

15:59

Yeah, oh, I don't know more than three, but less than 100.

16:31

no-transcript.

16:36

Funny and and I kind of alluded this when we were talking before but you know the whole like sport science aspect of all this and trying to look, okay, what are your minimum level thresholds and cut scores for job proficiency.

16:47

I mean you're really trying to say like, okay, it's not, let's take our top 10 and go get them right.

16:53

It's like, okay, how it's? How bad can you be and still do the job?

16:58

And it is insanely hard to get to that number Really.

17:03

Yeah, because people can be pretty bad and still do marginally okay, but obviously the job benefits being more fit, no question, I want to know how bad you could be.

17:15

How about this With aerobic conditioning?

17:18

Is there a mile time run or a 12-minute run, or is there a way to assess that?

17:23

Normally we'll do a mile and a half run, I mean, and honestly, like it's nothing exceptional, like I mean, if you're hitting like average scores for your age and sex.

17:31

But you cannot use age and sex, by the way, for well what are you using occupational standards?

17:36

But you can use that to us like, uh, to estimate vo2, but if you're in that range, you're probably going to be okay on most things.

17:44

Um, interesting, sex or no, no's as far as creating an occupational standard, because now it becomes even a bigger legal issue, because now you're discriminating well, I would imagine too, then, jay, like that, that we run into the same problem with assessing weight, right?

18:00

or? Oh yeah, because and I say this with care and concern not to mock anyone, but in what you've said regarding being prepared for the unexpected, that's very hard to do when you're not close to your factory weight in bet, when, when things really hit the fan, you know and you're not close to the weight.

18:20

That way you function optimally, you fatigue quick and things go really bad, really fast.

18:26

So well, I mean, I think that's the thing, tony, like yeah to your point.

18:29

I mean there's nothing about these jobs that are conducive to health and fitness.

18:33

I mean I mean, I mean one you know, in addition, you know, to the fact where a lot of times you know, even though you have to do things that are really physically demanding, and you know a lot of times they go from zero to hero the reality of it is like there is a lot of sitting around time, and you know the other aspect of that is that you're under load.

18:52

So when you're doing those things, I mean you'll have anywhere from, you know, 20 to possibly 40 to 60 pounds of gear on your body that it just creates more physiological burden.

19:02

So it doesn't. It doesn't help performance any.

19:05

So I mean, like to your point, if you're already unfit before you get that stuff on, it's not going to make life better once it's on.

19:12

Yeah, it's challenging. Yeah. So now and I will say this like I mean I can definitively, I mean we've got all the research to show you like more fit people tend to be better on tasks.

19:22

But the problem with it is you have to go like, okay, what is the on all these different occupational tasks, like what is the minimum threshold we're willing to accept, and then looking at those profiles and like, okay, at a minimum you need to be able to do this in order to be proficient.

19:37

So and one more question.

19:40

I'm sorry Go ahead. In most cases is this set by the.

19:43

So, for example, is it, is it um municipality, is it state or it's not federal right?

19:51

So, for example, you're what you what you're saying regarding well, we can't do this.

19:55

Or, legally, this is that legislated, in most cases locally or at a state level, or where is that law coming into?

20:02

play. It's usually different for every group, okay, yeah, and every agent.

20:06

So I mean even in Stillwater, for instance, like we've got the Stillwater Police Department, we've got the Oklahoma State Police Department, we've got Payne County Sheriff's, so we have three different groups that function together, but independently as well.

20:21

Okay, now, granted, on those, there is no occupational standard for fitness once they graduate Academy, but each one of those bases are kind of left to their own devices to choose, if they want to do that, what that number would look like.

20:35

Yeah, so it's not mandatory, got it Well to get to get like one of my first experiences after I left the NSCA.

20:42

So, joey, I know this, you know we started the tactical program there and it was great and you know we worked with a lot of you know high-end operators and SWAT folks and then went out to work with you know people who were not really at that level yet, necessarily so like more general duties and stuff like that.

20:59

And there was a group of pre-hires that sued a training academy because they couldn't do 22 push-ups so they weren't allowed into the academy and so they all were females.

21:16

It was found that it was actually considered potentially discriminatory because there was no reason that they the number 22 was kind of arbitrarily set.

21:25

You know, usually with a lot of those things like they, they kind of go to the chief.

21:31

They're like okay, how many push-ups can you do? That's the minimum standard.

21:33

So not really.

21:37

That's kind of a joke, but but I mean a lot of times the, the number, is kind of arbitrary.

21:41

So there's, I mean they could say you know what, 30 sounds like a good number and that's what they said.

21:46

But I mean, as soon as you go into court the question is like okay, is this?

21:49

Is it absolutely necessary for you to do this number of pushups to do the job Right?

21:53

That's where it falls apart. So in this situation these females were not able to do 22 pushups.

21:59

They sued, ended up selling out of court for a pretty large sum of money.

22:02

They sued, ended up selling out of court for a pretty large sum of money, were allowed into the training academy and, upon graduation, were granted hours toward pension and advancement as well.

22:15

You know, and the commander asked me hey, is 22 pushups unreasonable?

22:18

And I was like well, it's not, but I can't prove it makes you a good officer.

22:21

That's the problem. Right, right. Like Joey said, three to three to a hundred.

22:26

Right, I mean. I mean.

22:28

The fact of the matter is I don't even know how you would set up a randomized, controlled trial to examine that.

22:35

We have tried, and I will tell you this right now, like and again at some point I may change my mind, but as we are right now, today you're trying this, we've, we've uh, I mean we've done different things.

22:50

So basically, I mean we have ran officers through a series of fitness tests and a series of occupational tasks.

22:53

Um, with that being said, you know, I'm I'm not an officer, so I'm not the expert as far as that goes, like I'm an expert in physiology and strength conditioning and all that.

23:02

So for every one of the occupational tasks, we had four independent officers as subject matter experts rate performance on every single test, and so in that we were trying to find consensus on, okay, what's good, what's good, what's bad.

23:17

And once you tell me what's good and what's bad, it becomes kind of a math game at that point.

23:20

But one of the things we found was like there's kind of a wide variability on what's considered good and bad, even within the SMEs.

23:28

Like, for instance, we did a victim drag, so we decided what the victim drag needed to be.

23:34

So this was with a patrol agency, and so in order to set up that assessment, we had to know three things.

23:40

So what was the weight of the dummy, how far do you need to drag them, and then what time is acceptable?

23:47

And so with this particular group, the average weight of the officer was 205 pounds, so like duty belt gear, and all that was about 225.

23:56

So we thought, okay, that's reasonable to say you may have to pull one of your colleagues out of harm's way, makes sense, makes sense.

24:03

They really didn't like it, cause at that point, yeah, they were using 120 pound dummy.

24:09

Oh well, yeah, which I get it Like I understand, not liking it, but like, okay, the reality is like this is probably more reasonable.

24:15

So we set the weight at 225.

24:20

We determined that from the center of the intersection to the, for the median to the shoulder of the road was 8.54 meters.

24:28

So we set that at 8.54 meters and then it just got down to time.

24:33

So it was like, okay, what's a good time, what's a bad time?

24:35

So we had people drag somebody that distance everywhere from 3.8 seconds to 18.4 seconds, and it was deemed that everybody passed.

24:45

So I'm like so, as long as you're, I guess, somewhere between almost four seconds and 18, you're sweet, I guess.

24:53

So, yeah, so I mean, so that's what becomes kind of the challenge is like it's really hard.

24:57

I mean how? So the other I guess the other part is like you know it's, what are the what, the constraints of the situation, right?

25:02

So I mean, if you, I mean if you're under fire or you've got, you know it's what are the constraints of the situation, right?

25:05

So I mean, if you're under fire or you've got, you know, a car racing down the interstate, you probably need to move them faster than slower.

25:10

If that's not happening, you got a bit more time, so you kind of almost have to go to worst case scenario.

25:14

But again, there's a lot of worst case scenarios that could be plausible.

25:18

So yeah, it almost seems like and I don't know how many people are doing what you're doing, but you just have to collect enough data on literally thousands of individuals and you're basically going to create.

25:30

Okay, it's sort of like the old height weight charts that insurance companies would have.

25:35

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you're this height or weight, you will not live as long as this height or weight, and it's not perfect, but it could be okay in certain situations.

25:46

Right, none of these are ever perfect, I guess you know it's true. I guess the analogy would be the nfl combine.

25:50

You have guys, you know these big guys who run.

25:53

I mean, some of these big guys are running 4.7 seconds and they're over 300 pounds.

25:58

But I always say, well, but can he block?

26:01

I mean, that's not, that's what I'm asking. Yeah, exactly, he might be fast running straight ahead, but he's still got to block.

26:08

Yeah, and I think that's the challenge. I mean there's so many other factors that go into it.

26:11

So, like I mean, in a you know defensive tactics and arrest control scenario, so if you're fighting, basically you know it's not always the strongest person is the one that has the best skills, that can, I mean you can overcome a lot with skills.

26:23

Now, granted, you know, the more fit person in general terms is going to have, you know, an advantage in a lot of ways if the skills are commensurate with the person who's less fit.

26:32

But, yeah, I mean trying to help guide and steer that it's a challenge.

26:38

So if you we're going to wave the magic wand and you are the boss, okay, you're the boss, you get to decide and you are going to train.

26:48

Let's say, uh, uh, it's Stillwater police, the city, yep, and you get to train them.

26:54

And the chief of police is like you know what, you're the boss, you get to train them.

26:56

What would you focus on? Knowing the population in terms of you know muscular endurance, muscular strength, aerobic fitness, et cetera, et cetera, in terms of you know muscular endurance, muscular strength, aerobic fitness, et cetera et cetera.

27:11

So what would you focus on? Yes, all that, well, and that's that's actually the cool thing, man.

27:14

It's like we have a great relationship with Stillwater PD and we do a lot of work with them, and you know and again, there's some of the folks down there that they, they don't really need need me.

27:23

It's just like a hey, just like hey, I need a few tips, I'd like to knock some rough edges off, what can I do?

27:27

And for those folks, we'll try and give a little bit of extra guidance and different things that they can do to kind of help them out with different problem areas and stuff like that.

27:35

And then there's others that have a little bit more to work on. But, yeah, I mean it really, to some extent, all of it is really what we need to focus on.

27:43

I think it's just like anything else. It's like your SWOT analysis, like, okay, what's your biggest threat?

27:47

And that's the thing we need to hit first, and a lot of times kind of the mantra is health, fitness and performance.

27:55

So number one is like okay, from a health standpoint, are you a healthy human being?

27:59

Right, because if you're not a healthy human being, everything else is going to be a problem, you know.

28:05

So let's just work on like, let's become a healthy human being first and then, once you're healthy or healthier, we're going to start building some capacity on that, which is your fitness.

28:14

And then, from the performance standpoint, you know a lot of that is their.

28:18

You know their specific tasks and things that they're trained to do, but you know some of it is doing.

28:22

You know more your speed, agility, you know work and things like more specialty type stuff.

28:27

Um, but yeah, I mean it's really just trying to build that foundation.

28:31

Now the irony of it is I'm saying like, okay, we want to make sure a healthy human human being first before we go into these more advanced things.

28:39

But still, the reality is like on any given day, you might literally be having to throw hands and get somebody to the ground to make sure that you may be in a full on like Reco Roman wrestling match, but you're not fit or healthy and but you're still gonna have to do it because that's your job.

28:54

So that's where that's where it gets really challenging.

28:57

So, like you know to some extent, like I have to make sure that you're as reasonably prepared for this as possible, but at the same time, from a I don't want.

29:05

I don't want to get you hurt in the weight room. I mean, if you get hurt out in the world trying to save yourself or somebody else, that's a little bit easier to tolerate versus okay, jay did something dumb in the weight room and got you hurt well, that's what you get for putting him on a swiss ball and having them squat with one leg I'm not gonna do that a third time.

29:24

That's funny. So what projects do you have going on now in terms of this specific population, and are you also doing any projects that are not related, you know, specifically to tactical athletes or the tactical population, as some would say?

29:38

Yeah, I mean, I still do a little bit in sports. You know, I think that's the cool thing is that when you look at both populations, you know there's definitely that crossover element to it, you know.

29:47

So you know a lot of things that we do in the sport community.

29:50

You know we're trying to take those higher level strength edition concepts and bleed them over into the tactical space with.

29:55

You know all the different challenges they may have. But yeah, we have, we have several groups right now that we're working with.

30:00

You know some of that is trying to help stand up some in-house wellness programs.

30:05

So, looking at it from a physical fitness standpoint on my end of it, nutritional and then also trying to actually incorporate mental health.

30:16

So we actually work with a lot of, like mental health professionals and things like that that are helping provide services for those folks.

30:23

And you're really trying to look at that holistic approach where you're blending everything together.

30:27

So those are some big, big projects that are going on right now we have, so we're doing some additional work with the DOD.

30:36

That's looking at some long story short physiological measuring type things, which it always sounds really cool.

30:44

It's like I really can't talk about it. It makes me sound cool.

30:46

It's probably not that exciting, but let's just assume it's super top secret and it's awesome.

30:52

And then also we're in the process of creating a tactical athlete readiness program.

30:58

So basically for your pre-hires, so for people who, before they go into a academy, it's to help get them as fit as possible so they can actually survive academy training.

31:10

So this is like NFL combine training yeah.

31:14

So I mean that's one of the things that I mean. If you look at like training academy, like a lot of academies have a pretty decent I don't want to say washout, but I mean a lot of times injuries are pretty high in training academy.

31:25

Yeah, that's what I've heard. So that makes sense to prep in advance, right?

31:28

And that's and that's exactly. It is like you know one it's it's probably one of the most stressful times in their career as far as, like you know the.

31:35

You know when I say that we look at day in, day out, just the amount of.

31:40

I mean you're you're trying to pass your coursework, you're, you know, doing a lot of physical work at the same time and you know there's no guarantee you're gonna have a job.

31:47

So you're, you know, basically you're just trying to survive that process.

31:50

I mean it's like it's like army basic training to a point.

31:53

And you know some groups it is very much like that was more paramilitary style, where you're actually living in house at the location for you know the 27 weeks and you know whatever it may be.

32:04

So you know during that timeframe there tends to be a lot of injuries just because of the stress, and you know communal living and you know things like that.

32:11

So you know, in part, what we're trying to do is reduce the number of injuries that are seen so that actually translates to more officers on the streets, cause I think that's the challenge, like a lot of times.

32:22

It's a lot of times we look at that one injury but we don't think about the downstream effect of it.

32:27

So you know that one injury that they see in academy, I mean it, can cost a organization I mean usually from the groups I've worked with anywhere from one hundred eighty to two hundred thousand dollars per person.

32:39

So you lose five people, you just lost a million bucks for aid.

32:42

So if you lose five people, you just lost a million bucks for you know state.

32:47

And so if they get injured, you know they a lot of times they'll recycle and go back to the next training academy.

32:51

But you know, sometimes, depending on the severity of the injury, it may be a couple before they can get back in.

32:55

You know, in the meantime that leaves them short-staffed, so that's fewer people out in the public on the roads and doing the job.

33:03

So now you know you've got officers who are already on duty having to pick up extra shifts, and you know they're.

33:09

And again, with with those professions like sleep is always a massive issue, you know trying to eat healthy, maintain your fitness, so if you're having to pick up extra shifts, that doesn't help anything, you know.

33:20

So again that kind of leads to, you know, burnout of.

33:23

You know your people who are already your incumbent officers, who are already boots on the ground, so yeah, so basically it's one of those things where I mean, like anything else, if you can influence the pipeline and make sure that they're coming out healthier and able to endure better, then hopefully that influences the culture and the you know, the whole organization.

33:40

Yeah, Do you ever get questions about diet or supplements?

33:44

What do they ask you?

33:47

Oh man. I guess, before he ends that, how is their diet in general?

33:52

How would you describe it? I mean it's like again, it's like the general population.

34:00

You've got some people who are really, really dialed into performance eating and you've got some folks that are kind of on the state fair diet.

34:06

I mean wait, you mean the state fair.

34:10

They have those big jerky legs. I mean that's protein, that's that's good, yeah, but I mean, when you mix with cotton candy, that's a problem you got fried oreos too.

34:18

Don't forget those, and I mean, I mean that that's the thing about it is, and I think that's and, joe, I think you were on the board of directors for the NSCA when we originally came up with the tactical athlete concept and doing all that and you think, oh man, everybody's got to be super concerned about this and obviously they want to be occupationally fit.

34:36

But I mean it's just, I mean, honestly, it's like people that smoke, it's like, ah, you know, if it happens to me, it happens to me and me and you know.

34:48

So I mean, but yeah, you get varying levels of concern really, so it's it's.

34:50

I think the thing I love the most about this space is it's kind of the perfect blend between high performance and kind of like personal training.

34:56

Right, it's kind of that in-between space.

34:59

I think, because you get a dude like me. I'm like I'm 47, I can still do everything I did when I was 20.

35:03

It hurts more, takes longer to recover, but I can still and I it.

35:06

And I think you know you've got, you know, people like that who are still trying to maintain and, you know, get through the career and, you know, be successful.

35:14

And you know, then you got you know other people that you know they've let some things go and you're trying to get them back, you know, back on board.

35:20

But yeah, but from a nutritional standpoint, man, I'll be honest, there's a few things that I can't even say on your podcast that are they're actually pretty shocking actually.

35:30

Well, hypothetically, Super funny, but yeah, I can't say it on here, darn.

35:36

But yeah, I mean you'll get pretty diverse questions that come through.

35:45

Really, I mean you've been in the nutrition space long enough to know what.

35:49

What you deal with, I mean expect anything.

35:52

I mean we're, I'm, pretty fortunate so with our lab at Oklahoma state we have Dr Jill Joyce, who she's a registered dietitian.

35:59

So if there are any questions that go beyond, like you know, just general nutrition education, I can refer them to her and they can get a little bit more dialed in with stuff.

36:09

But yeah, I mean you know the general question, you know how you know, do I need to focus on macros or calories?

36:15

You know, do I need to? You know how many should I be getting?

36:17

And and quick plug, issn, like the position statements, are a really good resource because I usually like, hey, this is going to give you some general ideas, this will get you in the ballpark.

36:27

If you want to refine it, you can kind of tweak and play with it, but but yeah, I mean you do get some showstopper stuff.

36:33

I mean well the the irony of it is that it's probably the same questions we've been asked for the last 30 or 40 years.

36:40

They just keep getting recycled yeah, for sure.

36:43

Well, I mean and that's the thing man is like you start, you know, and I used to think about all these crusty older strength coaches when these questions like why they're so angry about stuff like, oh, because it's literally the same, it's just it's like, oh, because it's just it's, it's cyclical, is what it is right, right it's.

37:00

Yeah, I mean, it's true, when you're in the category long enough, after, after a while, you're like holy shit.

37:06

I wonder if people are learning anything, because I heard this when, like, ronald Reagan, was president.

37:13

Well, but I think this is the funniest thing about it too.

37:16

I mean, when Reagan was president, I mean, if you had an egg a day, there was no question you were going to die.

37:21

Yeah, exactly, and that's the superfood I'm like, all right well somewhere between that again.

37:28

So you talk about someone who deserves to sue, and it's the egg that's true.

37:36

The egg has been lambasted more than any other food.

37:38

Maybe milk is a close second people beat the crap out of milk, you know.

37:43

But I just have a quick question, jay.

37:46

So it'll offer, but it's not related to it. But I would imagine too, in recruitment for these jobs I got to think there are regional disparities and and what I mean by that is particularly how first responders are viewed right and certain areas.

38:00

Now it's really it's not that many people want to go into it, but I would think in Oklahoma I think it's my best guess is it's a little bit more appreciated, rightfully so, and the attitude toward the first responder police officer is probably better than in some places.

38:16

So are the departments there okay in recruitment?

38:21

Are they able to generate enough? candidates.

38:23

Yeah, honestly, no, I mean mean everybody's struggling right now.

38:27

Uh, we'll say this again, by and large, like everybody, and again, not just shameless plug, but everybody that I've worked with here in Oklahoma has been amazing, I mean they're great people, I know beings you know want to do the right things yeah so as far as um, you know the general climate and culture for law enforcement here, I mean it is reasonably law enforcement friendly.

38:48

But you know, if you look at the overall selection pool that they're trying to get, I mean it's a shallower pool.

38:54

I mean, you know again, because there has been so many negative things toward officers over the years.

39:02

And you know, and then you know, with that being said, you know not to use the C word but COVID.

39:05

You know, with that, you know we've got students that are coming into university.

39:11

So with our ROTC program, like, one of the things we saw is their resistor training age was significantly lower than the previous classes that came through, which kind of makes sense because they were at home Makes sense yeah.

39:24

Yeah, so the bad thing about it is they're not quite as fit as some of the previous groups that were coming in.

39:30

And now we've got fire, police and military trying to get the same pool of fewer people.

39:35

So it's really creating.

39:38

I mean, it's really almost. I would venture to say it's a public safety, national security issue at this point.

39:47

Well, I know, inida, we love law enforcement, um, because you know why they actually enforce the law here yes, as does oklahoma, and that's why I asked at least you know, because in some areas it's been quite challenging.

39:59

I know that recruitment and no one wants to to become involved with it anymore.

40:03

And and then on top of that you know the the pay isn't always great in some big cities where it's very hard to live to begin with, but I was hoping that wasn't the case where you were.

40:13

But I would imagine that the recruitment opportunity is still probably better than they are in a lot of other areas.

40:18

I think Tony's referring to his former home of New York City.

40:22

Yes, Well the home that I've always you know, avoided and spent half my life away from.

40:28

So that's. I mean yeah, I mean like you said there, you know, obviously regionally and geographically there's gonna be some challenges.

40:35

Yeah, I think you know in general terms in the South, you know people tend to be a little bit more law enforcement friendly.

40:41

Yeah. I think some of the challenges like in the South I mean all the other things that go along with health disparities in the South- yeah, true.

40:49

So those are some of the things that we try and kind of work through.

40:51

But yeah, I think you know to both of y'all's point, like when you're looking at the recruitment process, it's harder on everybody now.

41:02

So I think that's kind of the other part of trying to make sure that, okay, the people that do actually show up, let's make sure you can get through training.

41:09

Great point. And that you can, you know, get to that point, because I mean, you know, again, from a public safety standpoint, this creates a way bigger issue than you know.

41:19

Just hey, we can't find, you know, good recruits.

41:21

I mean it's a significant challenge as far as our society in general.

41:30

Yeah, yeah, but it holds greater value, for what you are doing is to make sure they're physically prepared helping out and mentally prepared prior to academy to the best of their capacity to ensure less dropout and greater success rate.

41:39

So it's even more important what you're doing there now.

41:41

Yeah, we sure hope so, and I think the other part of that too is of that too is like looking at it across the occupational lifespan because you know, again, in general terms, people in these populations don't tend to have the same life expectancy as people who are in the general population.

41:54

So, if you look at age and sex, matched people in these professions don't tend to live as long, wow, and that's probably for a whole variety of different issues.

42:03

But you know, I think if you look at it from a stress standpoint, you know, it's a good friend of mine one time said he's, so he's an officer.

42:13

He said Jason, the thing you don't understand.

42:15

He said when you are in the parking lot, if you drop your bottle of water and you pick it up, you just pick it up.

42:20

If you got a uniform on and you pick it up, you vulnerable and you're a target.

42:26

So you're just always like hyper aware of everything going on around you. Right, and I really hadn't thought about it that way before.

42:29

But he said, yeah, you're just, you just have to.

42:31

He said you know you can't play the what if game all the time.

42:34

So what if x happens? What if z happens?

42:37

He said that keeps you safe, but it also keeps you kind of amped up.

42:40

So yeah, you know yeah, mentally that's very, very taxing and has to have like negative sympathetic influence after a while and stress and really challenging on the body and mind Definitely.

42:52

Yeah, and that's you know. And again, from the fitness standpoint, I mean, you know, with fitness and nutrition, you know we certainly can't undo everything the job is doing to them, but we can certainly make a pretty significant impact.

43:02

And then I think it's you know, the better you go into those stressful situations, the better you're able to moderate and tolerate those stressors.

43:09

So Well, Jay, next time I see you're going to have to fess up as to what those nutrition things are that you can.

43:15

I am highly curious.

43:20

It doesn't work. Barnyard animals is all I can tell you.

43:24

Okay, I cannot tell you. Okay, I cannot wait Now before we let you go.

43:29

What conferences are you going to? If someone wants to find you, are you speaking to NSEA or ACSM or any of the other ones?

43:37

I'm actually. The next conference I go to is NSEA National, so I'll just be there hanging out, actually, so no speaking.

43:41

Is that in Vegas or? Florida. It is in Baltimore this year.

43:47

Oh, that hasn't been there in a while it has not so?

43:49

Yep, so it'll be baltimore this year and then, uh, the nsa tactical event.

43:52

I'll be there as well. Where is that being held?

43:55

So that will be. It's a great question.

43:58

I think norfolk maybe, but I'm not okay, this coast this year yeah so, but those are, I mean honestly great events to go to.

44:04

Uh. But yeah, I mean if for anybody listening, I mean if you found anything useful, or I mean not useful you just want to tell me how terrible it was.

44:10

Like I'd love to chat and try and redeem myself.

44:13

I'm happy to do that. Here come the emails.

44:17

Okay, his email is jno.

44:20

Yeah, exactly J, inadequate at.

44:30

I mean, before I let you go, it's almost as if the space you're working in it reminds me of where sports nutrition was back in the 90s, where it was sort of like, well, we kind of really don't know, we're just kind of trying to figure this out, and it takes a while before you even can put your hands around the category, because there's well one, there are legal restraints that you have that we did not have.

44:50

So it's really tough. Yeah, I mean yeah, I think to that point like that's the thing I love about the most is.

44:56

I mean, it's one of those things where I wake up at three in the morning and think I've got the solution and then by six I'm like that was dumb.

45:02

No, but I think that is the thing. And certainly we need more people in the research space, in the practical application space, coaches, that are helping kind of push this stuff forward, cause I mean it is everybody learning from one another and I think that's been the fun thing for me is like learning from those populations, I mean, cause I don't do their job, so they, they know their job better than anybody and I'm just trying to do what we can to help compliment it and make it better.

45:29

But yeah, it's, it's a fun area, it's, it's exciting, it's emerging, if I mean, and again, if anybody has an interest in getting more into that space, I'd be happy to talk to them more about it, at least.

45:39

What not to do from my personal experience.

45:41

So hey, you know what, knowing what not to do is is important too.

45:45

So a lot of time, man, yeah, yeah.

45:47

Yes, sure, so it is Dr Jay Dawes, oklahoma state cowboy.

45:51

Hey, it's been great to have you on the sports science dudes.

45:54

Uh, tony, I don't know if you have any final words for Jay before we let him go.

45:57

Great. I just uh, real interesting and I and I think what we really got out of this several things, but the work's important and it's needed and you're doing some great stuff out there for them, jay, because, um, again, we got to keep them healthy, um make sure if they get there, they graduate and can fulfill the job duties.

46:15

So this is. It is both national security and safety involved, so great work out that way yeah, thank you, jay, appreciate it.

46:25

You a you enjoy Oklahoma, the one state no one can find on a map.