0:03

On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly,

0:05

we have a New York baseball doubleheader.

0:08

Later in the show, a s I Senior writer Stephanie

0:10

Apstein takes a look at how the Mets turned their

0:12

team and their culture around to

0:15

produce a surprisingly good and surprisingly

0:17

functional season so far. But

0:20

first, s I Senior writer Tom Verducci

0:22

joins me to discuss his sit down with

0:25

Yankees slugger Aaron Judge during

0:27

his history chasing season. I'm

0:29

your host John Gonzalez from

0:31

Sports Illustrated and iHeart Radio.

0:34

This is Sports Illustrated Weekly.

0:42

Tom Verducci, Welcome back to Sports Illustrated

0:44

Weekly. Hey, good to be here. All

0:46

right, So you wrote a fantastic piece

0:48

on Aaron Judge, who's having a really excellent

0:51

season. The Yankee slugger is chasing home run history.

0:53

You start the piece with an

0:55

anecdote on August twelve, and at

0:58

bat facing Red Sox petcher Nathan of All the

1:00

changeup on ball one, we judge to lead

1:02

it off as we go to the third,

1:04

one to nothing. Tell us why that pitch on

1:06

that at bat was so important and

1:09

how it helps explain the season Judges having

1:11

well. First of all, Aaron Judge was really

1:13

gracious with his time. Doesn't do a lot of

1:15

sit down interviews, so given that opportunity,

1:18

my challenge was to really, if you will, kind

1:21

of get inside of his head. Right. We can all see

1:23

the physical ability that he has, but what is

1:25

it about Aaron Judge that's making

1:27

this season so special? So I

1:29

chose that pitch because to me, it's the

1:31

intersection of all these experience in the major

1:34

leagues, everything he's done physically to prepare

1:36

himself. Now he's in a situation

1:38

where everybody knows he's the most dangerous hitter

1:40

in baseball. He sees so few

1:43

actual good pitches to hit. An amazing

1:45

thing is when he gets them, he's hitting him for home

1:47

runs. So this was kind of entree

1:49

into the mindset, the preparation,

1:51

the intuition, if you will have Aaron Judge to figure

1:54

out, how is it that this guy still

1:56

is hitting home runs when pitchers know they

1:58

can't afford to make mistake as So that was

2:01

a window up against Nathan of Aaldi the Red

2:03

Sox where he did take the split figure change

2:05

up for ball one down and away and

2:07

his sense and it's a little more than sense,

2:09

but I'll say, his sense told him the

2:12

next pitch was going to be a fastball up and in.

2:14

That's exactly where it was. Swallow

2:18

there, deep west center field. Hit

2:20

us hot, let us far, let

2:22

us got out of the ball park, and

2:24

once again he didn't miss it. I mean, sometimes

2:27

hittors get pitches they're looking for and they foul

2:29

it off, they popped it up, they hit it hard to the shortstop.

2:32

This guy hit it on a parking garage in the left field.

2:36

Yeah, he hit that pitch thirteen

2:39

point eight miles prior, harder than any ball

2:41

hit all season by any right hand batter

2:44

on up and end fastball. And as you said, he crushed

2:46

it out of Fenway. And it's so cool that you got to sit down

2:48

and talk to him about how he studies

2:50

the game, how he does his homework on pictures like

2:52

this, and I'm sure for him it was nice for him

2:54

to do that against the Red Sox in Boston. He gets a little

2:57

extra enjoyment out of that. At the time that

2:59

we were recording home runs through the

3:01

first games, so he's chasing this

3:03

record. He had some thoughts on the record

3:05

and who holds the real one? Right? He

3:08

did and question all of us as fans

3:10

of the game, really ask ourselves all the

3:12

time, ever since the steroid era kind

3:14

of blew up the record book,

3:16

what is the record? What the official record

3:18

obviously seventy three home runs by

3:20

Barry Bonds. But it's interesting

3:23

since testing for p E. D s has

3:25

been a place since two thousand three, no one

3:27

has even hit sixty home runs.

3:30

So in the minds of a lot of people, the

3:32

authentic record, if not the official

3:34

one, is the sixty one by Roger Marris in one.

3:37

So I was curious to think, what does

3:39

Aaron Judge think about what the record

3:42

is? And

3:45

listen, he grew up as a fan of the Giants,

3:48

but he said, seventy three is seventy

3:50

three. It was done. Whatever that arrow

3:52

was, that's what it was. You still have to go out there and

3:54

do it. So in his mind that is

3:57

the record. But he was quick to

3:59

point out, have to bring this up. The

4:01

American League record is sixty

4:03

one hit yet

4:06

way back there, and

4:13

he said, I've got a shot at that. And

4:15

boy does he yeah, he really does.

4:17

There's so much going on for him, Tom, and as you said,

4:20

he doesn't do a lot of these interviews. I think it's really cool

4:22

that you got him to sit down and and discuss

4:24

this, because there's the on field component where

4:26

he's chasing this record or records

4:28

depending on how you you know, what your perspective

4:30

is on it. And then there's all the stuff

4:32

swirling around him and the club and the contract

4:35

extension that he was offered started this

4:37

season, turning down a massive contract

4:39

extension that created some tension between

4:41

him and the Yankees, right because the Yankees went public

4:44

with the terms, which it seemed like Judge was

4:46

not exactly thrilled about. No, you're

4:48

absolutely right, and that's what Judge told

4:50

me, he said, Listen, I thought those conversations

4:52

talking about the contract negotiations were

4:55

private. And as you mentioned, right

4:57

before Opening Day was played, the

5:00

Yankees not only announced that Judge had

5:02

turned down this contract offer, but they gave

5:04

the terms of that deal, and

5:06

it was about thirty and a half million dollars per

5:09

year over seven years, would have made Aaron Judge

5:11

on average annual value, about

5:14

the highest paid

5:16

player. Obviously, he found that unsatisfactory,

5:18

but he didn't like the fact that this offer came in at

5:20

the last minute and then was made public.

5:23

Now, he said, told me, Listen, I had a

5:25

chance that I wanted to to make a big deal out of

5:27

that and go all negative on team

5:30

dates, front office, fan base, he said,

5:32

But you know what, I decided, I want to turn

5:34

that into a positive. I'm still playing for

5:36

the New York Yankees, no matter what the contract situation

5:38

is, at least for two I'm

5:41

gonna make the best for this. And he's

5:43

done nothing but add to his

5:46

value and who knows how much

5:48

farther north that number is going. But

5:50

there's that phrase, Hey, he bet on himself, He's

5:53

gonna cash it big. Yeah.

5:57

I love that you bring up the better on himself part,

5:59

because everybody would think about it

6:01

that way, at least those of us who follow sports that are

6:03

not professional athletes would say, oh, he he bet

6:05

on himself. But you talked to him about this and

6:07

you wrote that the easy angle is that he bet on

6:09

himself. But Judge told you he doesn't see it that way,

6:11

right. Yeah. I love that response. I thought

6:13

it was really interesting. He said, it wasn't a gamble.

6:16

I'm not betting on myself now. It speaks

6:18

to his supreme confidence. But he

6:20

said, listen, I'm still playing for the Yankees.

6:22

Whether I signed a deal or not. Talking about two

6:25

season that didn't change. And

6:28

I think he's at a point in his career

6:30

where he is so confident in himself.

6:33

And the one thing I have to point out here

6:35

is that one of the reasons the contract offer

6:37

wasn't bigger was because Aaron Judge

6:39

has been hurt a lot in his career. But

6:42

Aaron Judge went a great detail explaining

6:45

to me why that no longer applies

6:47

to him. He said a lot of things with his training,

6:49

both before games and after a games,

6:52

and he feels like his body is very

6:54

different from what it was in his younger days.

6:57

So part of his confidence, Yeah,

6:59

he's a great hit or he knows it, but it's

7:01

also knowing he has a lot of confidence in the way

7:03

his body now is responding to the

7:05

grind of a season. Because he said, yeah,

7:08

he's some people would say you're taking a gamble,

7:10

what if you get hurt, But it seemed

7:12

to me and Aaron explaining this to me, that he's

7:14

so confident in his routine

7:16

right now, he wasn't worried about getting hurt

7:19

at all. So he's staying healthy. Obviously

7:21

a big deal for him and his season, and it's

7:23

going to help with the contract and those numbers, as you

7:25

kind of alluded to, or just ticking up, ratcheting

7:28

up. Another thing I found really

7:30

interesting about the piece, and it was so smart

7:32

that you pointed this out, is that he's having this historic

7:34

season and he's staying healthy and he's

7:37

hitting the ball crushing at a time when it's become

7:39

really hard to hit a baseball. Through three

7:41

quarters of the season, the collective

7:43

league batting average is the fourth lowest

7:46

since nineteen hundred, which just like absolutely

7:48

blew me away. Tom. Did you spend much

7:50

time reflecting on that or did Aaron Judge

7:52

spend much time reflecting on that with you? That he's having

7:55

such a successful season at a time when many of

7:57

his peers are not. Yeah, we talked

7:59

the law about, especially the velocity

8:01

in the game that you see on a nightly basis.

8:04

That used to be maybe the closer for

8:06

the other team was a guy who threw really hard upper

8:08

nineties. Now you see it from one through

8:10

nine. In terms of the innings of a game. The

8:13

number of pitches thrown a hundred

8:15

miles or more just in the

8:17

last three years has tripled,

8:20

and a swing in a miss one the two again

8:22

for strike three, and the amount

8:24

of spin in the game today has gone up. There's

8:26

more breaking pitches now than fastballs.

8:29

That's the first time it's ever happened in baseball history.

8:31

As you mentioned, it's harder to

8:33

get a hit in today's game that it's ever been since

8:35

the mount was lowered back in nine So

8:38

judges doing this at a time where I

8:40

think it's harder to hit than ever

8:42

before. Now. One thing he did tell

8:44

me about how to combat that. A lot

8:46

of times before a game, he'll go in and hit

8:48

against a high velocity machine. This

8:51

is a pitching machine that cranks the ball up as high

8:53

as a hundred and ten miles per hour.

8:56

And what they'll do is they'll put some softer,

8:58

dimpled baseballs in there, because you're gonna

9:00

get jammed. And even as good as error

9:03

judge is coming in that hard, you're going to

9:05

get jammed. So you get in there

9:07

or train your eyes and your muscles to hit

9:09

against something that's actually even faster than

9:11

what you'll see in the game. And he said that's

9:13

really helped him. He's done this the last couple of years

9:15

to help slow down this extreme velocity

9:18

we see in the game. You

9:23

mentioned that he doesn't give a lot of these interviews,

9:26

and yet he gave an interview to you,

9:29

and you've got so much good stuff. I mean, all these

9:31

anecdotes that you were throwing at me right here are

9:33

fascinating for me. Not to do the

9:35

like two inside baseball here, but get

9:38

a little inside baseball on the media with me. Like

9:40

what was he like to interview as a subject? Well,

9:43

he was great, first of all, because he's

9:46

a very him. He's a gentleman. He talked to me

9:48

about his parents, both of whom are school teachers,

9:50

and he said that's where he gets this really

9:53

incredible respect he has for other

9:55

people, even empathy. He's he's great

9:57

with kids. He has a foundation that reaches out to a

9:59

lot of kids and provides education

10:01

opportunities for them. But it's I'm

10:03

all about just treating people. And I think Aaron

10:06

Judge, especially this year, has so many

10:08

demands on him, yet I

10:10

think it doesn't really affect who he

10:13

is as a person. Yeah, I don't

10:15

think he loves talking about

10:17

himself. It's probably not his favorite subjects.

10:19

So I'm glad he gave me that opportunity to kind

10:21

of dive into what makes him tick. Um,

10:24

but he's more about team and again about

10:27

really other people rather than talking about

10:29

himself. If you want to sit down and talk to Eric Judge about

10:31

his teammates with the team, he'll go out all day. So

10:34

I was happy he gave me this time because he is

10:36

a fascinating study. Uh. And one

10:38

of the things I really wanted to get into is the fact that

10:40

you know, it wasn't like this guy came out of the gate

10:43

like some phenomen You know, he had won

10:45

seventy nine his first year. He struck

10:47

out almost half the times he came

10:49

to the plate. So what you're seeing

10:51

now is the evolution of a great

10:53

hitter, not one who is necessarily

10:56

born from day one of the big leagues that way.

10:58

Yeah, from a reporting perspective, From

11:00

a journalism perspective, I love that you got this access,

11:03

but just also from a fan consumer perspective

11:06

like this is this is a really fantastic piece

11:08

and you've got some really good time with him. I want

11:10

to ask you, though, where you think

11:13

all of this ends up on two different fronts. Let's

11:15

start with the record or records

11:17

your perspective, where do you think he ends up home

11:19

run wise this season. I think

11:21

he does hit number sixty two. He's

11:23

not gonna get seventy three. But at

11:26

first I was very skeptical because I

11:28

thought the closer he got, and the more

11:31

there is less help than the Yankee lineup

11:33

for him, the fewer pitches he would

11:35

see to hit, which is true,

11:38

but I'm continually blown away by the fact that

11:40

when he does see something, he's

11:42

hitting it out of the ballpark field.

11:46

Going back looks

11:50

number Nickels,

11:53

it is sort of Barry Bonds esque,

11:56

maybe not quite to that extent, but his

11:58

ability not to miss the rare

12:00

pitch is just incredible. So that's why

12:02

I think he could still get this done. I

12:05

think the longest he's gone this year without a home run

12:07

is nine games, so he's been very consistent.

12:09

Listen, I think it's not a done deal, but I

12:11

think he does wind up hitting number sixty two,

12:13

And obviously that's American League record,

12:16

the Yankee franchise record, and especially

12:19

in this day and age, that should be celebrated

12:21

big time. It

12:25

will be celebrated, probably by his

12:27

bank account as well. I'm wondering

12:30

what you what you think happens there after

12:32

the season. As you wrote, the Yankees offered him thirty

12:35

point five million per year, which sounds like a ton

12:37

to me. But then, as you know, did

12:39

eleven players make more, including two on

12:41

his own team, he's gonna get paid. What kind

12:43

of numbers do you think he's looking at? Yeah, and also

12:45

I think you have to besides all the home runs he hits, talk

12:48

about the impact that he has at the gate, right

12:50

off the fielding on the field. He is

12:52

one of the rare baseball players who I think

12:54

to walk down any street in America and people know who

12:56

he is. Of course, he's six ft

12:58

seven, so that helps, but he

13:01

does have this star quality about

13:03

him. He is a drawing card. So

13:05

when you sign Aaron Judge, you're getting great

13:07

offensive production, a guy you could play center field

13:10

at six ft seven, But you're also getting

13:12

a guy who will sell tickets

13:14

and draw eyeballs to your regional sports

13:16

network. So the investment in Naron

13:19

Judge is going to be big, but I think the return is just

13:21

as big. So where the number goes,

13:23

I think now you're looking at over thirty

13:25

five million a year, probably again, maybe

13:28

seven. Maybe he gets the eighth year now because

13:30

he has now played two straight years fully healthy

13:32

playing and almost more than nine of

13:34

the Yankees games. He's proven that where

13:36

he goes, I still think he winds up at the Yankees. I

13:39

think in his heart of hearts, you know, this is the only

13:41

organization he plays for and wants to continue

13:43

playing for them. But as

13:46

I imagined, he was a Giants fan growing up. The

13:48

Giants certainly need a new star

13:50

out there in that ballpark in San Francisco.

13:52

You've got the New York Mets looming if they

13:54

get bounced in the playoffs early. Maybe Steve

13:57

Colin wants to get the biggest

13:59

star he can get his hand ends on who is Aaron

14:01

Judge. Listen, there's going to be it's the

14:03

top of the market. Only the richest teams

14:05

can afford him. But I do think what all of

14:07

said, and it's gonna be between thirty five and forty

14:09

million a year. Yes, so much

14:11

going on. It's so fascinating to watch

14:14

him this season and then into the off season.

14:16

But as he said, as he told you all that other

14:18

stuff is why he has an agent. Read his excellent

14:20

piece about Aaron Judge on SI

14:23

dot com. It's really good. So much access,

14:25

so many things in there to unpack. Tom Verducci,

14:27

you killed it. Thank you, cool stuff, Thanks

14:30

for having me. After

14:35

the break, we take a look at how the Mets have stopped

14:37

being while the Mets and

14:40

have found success this season. Stephanie

14:43

Epstein, Welcome back to Sports Illustrated Weekly. Thanks

14:46

for having me. Great to see you again. We're

14:48

about to discuss something, frankly, stuff

14:50

that I would rather not making a filly native

14:53

talk about. This feels criminal. I've

14:55

debated whether or not I should file an HR complain

14:57

about this, but we're making an exception because you're

15:00

the author of this piece. You wrote a story about

15:02

the New York Mets. Essentially the

15:04

Mets not being MLB's

15:06

biggest and most consistent fail son, which

15:08

is what we've known them as for quite some time.

15:10

I like, personally stuff when they're more of a joke,

15:13

but they haven't been this season. As we record this,

15:15

Atlanta has essentially caught them in

15:17

the NL East, and we will discuss

15:20

if the Mets are gonna end up metsing in the

15:22

end. But still on the whole macro

15:24

terms, this has been a good season for them. Yeah,

15:27

they've played great, and even the fact that Atlanta

15:29

has taught them. It's not the Mets

15:31

haven't really played badly. Atlanta has just been playing

15:33

great. So you mentioned in your piece you start

15:35

with an anecdote and it involves

15:37

new owner Steve Cohen and President Sandy Alderson,

15:40

and it certainly helps the Mets in their metamorphosis.

15:43

That Cohen is extremely rich,

15:45

exceedingly rich even by billionaire standards,

15:48

and you start the piece with Cohen giving everyone a

15:50

raise at Alderson's request. Why

15:52

is that significant? I think that

15:55

this is sort of how the Mets should always have been behaving,

15:58

right, like this is the biggest mark it in the

16:00

country and they

16:02

should should act like it, and

16:05

over the past several decades

16:07

they have not really. I mean, I guess the past decade

16:09

is more accurate because it was after

16:11

the made off scandal, which the

16:14

Crevier, the Mets, the Wilpons were heavily

16:16

invested in, that they really stopped

16:18

being able to make payroll almost They were taking

16:20

out loans from the league, and it

16:22

became sort of a sort

16:24

of a silly situation where like scouts

16:26

were getting pulled off the road because they didn't want to

16:28

pay for their expenses. Good Morning, The

16:30

New York Mets shut out from new funds from

16:32

Major League Baseball. Sources tell the New York Times

16:35

the league is not willing to give any new substantial

16:37

loans. They were really starting to nickel and dime things.

16:39

And you know, these are the New York Mets.

16:42

They should be. They could be on par

16:45

from in a lot of ways with the New York Yankees. And

16:47

so I think we get an owner like Steve

16:50

Cohen who has the money that he has, and he shows

16:52

up and one of his first act is to spend it on

16:54

the people who worked there. I think that says

16:56

to your employees, Okay, this might be a little bit different.

16:59

Pay your people more. Ends up working out

17:01

great. Otherson told you that it improved morale.

17:04

You mentioned the previous owners.

17:06

How bad was morale under the Wilpons

17:08

post Bernie made off scamp. I

17:11

think it just started to feel ridiculous a lot

17:13

of the time, Like why didn't they have Old

17:15

Timer's Day before the last this year?

17:17

Because it's expensive to have all Timers Day

17:19

you have to pay for you have to pay for it, and so

17:22

they didn't want to do that. Like why didn't the retire numbers you have

17:24

to pay for it, and so some of these,

17:26

some of the places that they cut costs I think felt

17:29

ridiculous. And the Wilpons, you

17:31

know, it was not a totally bad ownership

17:33

experience. You know, they made they made it

17:36

to the World Series. They

17:38

the team was interesting, but I think

17:40

by the end it was starting to feel like a pretty a

17:42

pretty bad marriage.

17:46

So things are obviously going much better now than

17:48

they were then, but you wrote that even under

17:51

Cohen's new ownership, they still have some

17:53

old mets to them. Cohen's first GM was

17:55

fired. Jared Porter sent explicit unsolicited

17:57

text to a female reporter. Zack Scott

17:59

reply paced him. He was fired for allegedly driving

18:02

under the influence after a team fundraiser. We

18:04

should note that Scott was acquitted. One

18:07

review of workplace culture led

18:09

to the firing of the heads of the legal

18:11

and HR departments. The players were

18:13

no better. Francisco Lindor reportedly grabbed

18:16

second baseman Jeff McNeil by the throat

18:18

last year, and then Lindour, Javier Baiez,

18:20

and Kevin Pollar began booing

18:22

fans when they were playing well, which, honestly stuff.

18:24

I thought it was hilarious. That was like the first

18:27

thing the Mets had ever done. When I was like, hey, good job

18:29

Mets. But clearly they had a lot to

18:31

do to change the culture, right,

18:35

it was too silly. Francis Pilndor told

18:37

me he felt like it was an unprofessional organization

18:40

last year, and I think you can see

18:42

that in the way a lot of people involved with the

18:44

behaved. So what what changed them with

18:46

the culture this year? Obviously

18:48

they're doing well. They meant at top the NL East

18:50

all season. We mentioned that the Braves

18:52

are closing in on them, but there had to be a pretty

18:55

significant shift in the way they operated. Yeah,

18:57

it's a few things. One is that just the players

19:00

are older. They've added some

19:03

sort of like notable adults in that

19:05

clubhouse, so there's not a lot of people who, you

19:08

know, Buck sometimes likes to talk about eliminating sympathetic

19:11

ears, like there are not a lot of people in that room

19:13

anymore who will listen to

19:15

you patiently while you're ripe about how

19:18

your life feels hard because you got in late on a

19:20

charter flight. There. Buck

19:23

basically he once saw that players at a previous

19:25

team we're sort of browsing in the clubhouse,

19:27

and he came in and said, oh my god, did the did the checks

19:29

bounce? You guys are like, well, he was

19:32

like did did? Surely

19:34

you're not the only reason you could be behaving

19:36

like this is because you're not getting paid millions of dollars

19:38

to play baseball game, right, And they were like, well,

19:41

we'll know, and he was like, okay, then I don't want to hear it. And

19:43

so that you know, there's like a little

19:45

bit of a red ass quality to that. That is probably

19:47

not that he's able to leaven with

19:50

other uh the other ways

19:52

he interacts with them, But I do think that

19:54

that attitude of shut

19:57

up, play better has been really helping to

19:59

them. And then there is also

20:02

it just helps to have the most funny you can just go.

20:04

You can buy the best players, you can buy the best

20:06

equipment you can you can

20:09

do kind of whatever you want that you think will

20:11

help. In the second year of owning the team,

20:13

poem and so I think that he's found his

20:15

footing and they're they're

20:17

pretty willing to drop cash on things that

20:19

they think will help. I

20:23

like that attitude from Buck Shall Walter. I'm wondering

20:25

what you make of him. I got to cover him

20:27

in another life a long time ago, because I'm

20:30

old, but I always liked Buck shall Walter, and

20:32

I like that approach where he's sort of no nonsense

20:34

on that front. Yeah, I can see why

20:36

sometimes his act gets tired at teams

20:38

where he sort of wears out as welcome. But I think he's

20:41

pretty much the perfect manager for this group

20:43

because I think they had they had

20:45

like some babies in the clubhouse last

20:48

year. There were there was not enough accountability.

20:50

There was people were focusing on the wrong

20:52

things, and he doesn't have patience

20:54

for that. And he also has a pretty

20:56

good way of empowering veterans

21:00

to speak up in moments like that. So

21:02

there's you don't get the sense that

21:05

that sort of thing is acceptable because

21:07

the manager doesn't doesn't put up with the coaches

21:09

don't put up with it, and the veteran

21:12

players don't put up with it. And so you know, I was talking

21:14

to Taylan Walker about this, and he said, the

21:17

stuff about the thumbs down and the fake hitting

21:19

coach and the rat raccoon, all the nonsense

21:21

from last year, none of that would have gotten

21:23

this far because Buck would have sniffed that out immediately

21:26

and put a stop to it, so we wouldn't the media wouldn't

21:28

even have heard about it because it wouldn't

21:30

have gotten pasted him. He doesn't spend a lot of time

21:32

in the clubhouse because he thinks that's the player's room,

21:35

but he does manage to have his finger on

21:37

the pulse. It's it's a pretty good balancing act.

21:39

I think he does. It's done a really good job,

21:41

and I think he does a good job to have listening to

21:44

these guys. I think he's been criticized in the past for

21:46

being maybe ruling with too much of an iron fist,

21:48

being a little bit too much with pain, But here

21:51

he's very good at checking in with his

21:53

veterans. When the team is going to make a roster move.

21:56

Very often the veteran players will know about

21:58

it before it happens, and so they can prepare it for

22:00

it. If you know, if they're gonna send somebody down

22:02

or release somebody, he tells the players

22:04

beforehand so that they can be ready

22:06

to cush on the blow on the clubhouse. And I think getting

22:09

that level of buy in from your veteran's important.

22:14

And you would mentioned it's not just buck too right.

22:16

I mean, there there are adults

22:18

in the room. I like that you wrote

22:20

that Max Scherzer leads to professionalism

22:22

parade. Tell us about Max and the professionalism

22:25

parade. Max is very He's

22:27

a big accountability guy. A lot of these guys are big

22:29

on accountability. And I asked him

22:32

when that became important to him, and said he

22:34

had had a really good season

22:37

when he was with the Diamondbacks and he

22:39

sort of thought like, Okay, I've kind of got this figured

22:41

out. And then the next year he was one of the worst

22:43

pitchers in baseball. And that made

22:46

him realize that if you for one second

22:48

think you know what you're

22:50

doing this game, will we'll turn

22:52

you upside down. He realized that you really have

22:54

to every day figure out what

22:56

you've done right, what you've done wrong, what you can do better.

22:59

You have to focus on those small

23:01

steps and he has tried to bring that to his

23:03

career ever since. And so he does things like

23:05

after an outing, you

23:07

know, this is Max chers or he's a fairly intimidating guy.

23:10

He's you know, so he could intimidate

23:12

his teammates, but he pulls them all together, the other

23:14

starting pitchers after he comes out of a start,

23:17

and he says, what did you guys see like good and

23:19

bad? Tell me what you saw, because in that

23:21

moment, he says, is when you can best learn from

23:24

whatever happened. And so they've

23:26

got this sort of adorable little tradition now where as

23:28

soon as the starter comes out of the game, the

23:30

other starting pitchers swarm him and they talk about

23:33

his outing, and they feel

23:35

comfortable saying what they think he did well,

23:37

what they think he didn't do well, because if

23:40

you can say that to, you know, this future Hall of Famer

23:42

on your staff, surely you can talk to David Peterson

23:45

about what he needs to work on. And so

23:47

that sort of willingness to have your performance

23:49

taken apart and to look for what can

23:52

be better. It sets an example.

23:54

But it also he's vocally saying

23:57

this is what we should be doing. So all

23:59

that sounds good. Time should be

24:01

good. They're playing well, they're getting along,

24:03

there's no drama, and yet they are

24:05

still the Mets not exactly great

24:07

with the media. They had agreed to make front office stafforts

24:10

available to you, and then didn't You got Alderson

24:12

but not Cohen. Cohen isn't Will Pond,

24:15

but he also has some problems to tell us

24:17

about his day job and why it's a

24:19

bit dodgy. Sure, I mean, nothing is

24:21

is just one thing right, Nothing is

24:23

just simply, very simply bad. And

24:26

I think Steve Cohen has gotten to the point

24:28

where he can be as successful as

24:30

he is because he has some business

24:33

practices that pump up against

24:35

lines or sometimes allegedly crossed

24:37

them. So for example, his firm settled

24:40

basically the largest insider

24:42

trading case in history, paid the largest

24:44

fine for that. However, he was not personally

24:46

accused of wrongdoing, and he has denied

24:48

personal wrongdoing, but he did

24:51

oversee a firm that admitted

24:53

to wrongdoing. There have been very scrievances

24:56

filed against him for gender discrimination in

24:58

the years since then. They have settled all those, even

25:00

says they have denied wrongdoing. But

25:03

he does bring his own baggage, and

25:06

you know, the team continues to

25:08

make some sort of goofy mistakes, like the way they handle

25:10

the media can be kind of ridiculous. I mean,

25:13

he he did oversee the organization when they

25:15

were firing two successive general managers, so

25:17

it's not It's not as easy as

25:19

just bringing the guy with the money and things get easier

25:21

it takes some time, I think, to rebuild a culture,

25:23

and it seems like they are

25:25

doing that, but it is worth remembering who

25:28

the people are at the helm and they

25:30

are rebuilding the culture. But as you mentioned,

25:32

they do still make the goofy

25:34

Mets mistakes, like how they handle the media,

25:36

sometimes even their own media. They still

25:38

have a bit of an uncomfortable relationship with their

25:40

broadcasters, right, and they whine about Gary

25:42

Cone and Keith Hernandez and Ron Darling.

25:45

How's that received? Yeah, So

25:47

if for people who have people who have

25:49

not watched the Mets broadcast, the Mets broadcasters

25:52

are, if not the best in baseball, then top

25:54

two. And part of the reason that

25:56

they are such a great watch is

25:59

it they're pretty candid about what they're seeing, and

26:02

often that means the Mets will make a mistake

26:04

and the broadcasters will talk about it for the next three innings.

26:06

Why Jason

26:09

were because he's a fool, That's why.

26:11

And so if you are met,

26:14

you might not appreciate that. Fans love it because

26:16

they really learn about the game, but the Mets

26:18

are like, this guy is on my team plane, why does

26:21

it sound like who's rooting against me? And so every

26:23

year. A couple of times a year there's

26:25

some little issue

26:28

where they start right, but it's it's pretty passive

26:30

aggressive. They don't usually get into it physically, although

26:32

that has happened, but for the most

26:34

part, they just start kind of complaining that

26:36

these guys aren't nice enough for them. And one

26:39

thing I thought was really interesting is that that hasn't happened

26:42

this year. And it's not just because they've

26:44

been playing better. It's not just because of the sort of

26:46

accountability culture. It's

26:48

because buckshow Walter muted the TVs in the clubhouse,

26:51

so they just can't hear Yeah,

26:54

just why would we Why would we let this be a problem.

26:56

We don't need to watch the game with the volume on. We know

26:58

what's happening, so they just they can't hear it. If

27:01

only they had thought about sticking their fingers in their

27:03

ears sooner, all the problems would have gone away.

27:05

I love that, all

27:10

right. I want to end this by asking you the very questions

27:12

that you pose at the beginning of the piece

27:15

and the nutgraph. Our attitude, personnel

27:17

and money and one competent season enough

27:19

to erase decades of dysfunction stuff,

27:21

But simply can this possibly continue.

27:23

Can the Mets avoid being the Mets

27:26

in perpetuity? We're gonna see.

27:28

They've made it through most of the season this way, and

27:30

that's something they hadn't done in a long time. Things

27:32

are looking up, but I

27:34

think for most fans it's what you do

27:36

in the playoffs that matters, and so that will be the ultimate

27:39

Beside. Yeah, I'm over here acrossing

27:41

all my fingers and toes that they returned

27:44

to form. But we'll say, read her

27:46

very good piece on the no good because I'm required

27:49

to hate them the Mets on SI dot com.

27:51

Excellent piece. I might dislike the Mets, but

27:53

I love having her on. Stephanie Epstein, thank

27:56

you for this, Thanks for having Meg.

28:08

Sports Illustrated Weekly is a production of Sports

28:10

Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For

28:13

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visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

28:18

or wherever you get your favorite shows. And

28:21

for more of Sports Illustrated's best stories and podcasts,

28:24

visit SI dot com.

28:26

This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly was produced

28:28

by Jordan Rozsieri, Jessica you r Moski,

28:31

and Isaac Lee, who was also our

28:33

sound engineer, our senior

28:35

producers are Dan Bloom and Harry sward Out.

28:38

Our executive producers are Scott Brodie and

28:40

me John Gonzalez. Our theme

28:42

song is by Nolan Schneider. And

28:44

if you've stuck around this long, we leave you

28:46

with this. Did you expect

28:48

this? I mean, I know that a lot of people had high hopes

28:51

for the Mets coming to the season, but they are still

28:53

the Mets, and so far, so good

28:55

for them through almost the entire season. Yeah,

28:57

I don't think I expected it. I thought there

28:59

was a chance, given the sort

29:02

of some of the personnel that they added, but I

29:04

don't. I didn't expect them to play like

29:07

this and to play to do it so undramatically,

29:10

and I'm not sure they did either.