0:00

Hey, sounds like a cult pod. My name's Audra

0:02

calling from New York City and I'm definitely

0:04

a Swiftie. And I think one culty aspect

0:07

of the fandom that has felt different in the past

0:09

two or so years is the fan obsession

0:11

with the Easter eggs. It used to be that people kept

0:13

an eye out for like her nail polish

0:15

colors or the capitalized letters

0:18

in an album's lyrics pamphlet just to see

0:20

who a song might be about or what the vibe of the

0:22

next album might be. But now it

0:25

feels like people are obsessed with dissecting

0:27

everything she does down to

0:29

like

0:29

the name and release year of

0:32

a piece of clothing she wears or the number

0:34

of vowels in one of her tweets. And just

0:36

enough of the conclusions people draw end up having

0:38

merit to keep people looking for clues

0:41

in increasingly more places. So it's

0:43

just taking up more and more of these people's time and

0:45

it's super culty. Hi, my

0:47

name is Avery. I'm from Denver, Colorado.

0:50

I think the way that the Taylor Swift cult has

0:52

changed since eras is I think

0:54

people are really realizing and feeling

0:56

nostalgic about how Taylor Swift and

0:58

her music has been present

0:59

through their entire lives. I went through

1:02

elementary school, middle school, high school,

1:04

college, and now even post-grad with

1:06

Taylor Swift. She's had new music

1:09

through every phase of my life. So she

1:11

feels like a fixture. Hello, I'm Helen

1:13

from Brooklyn. And I think the cultiest aspect

1:15

of a post-eras tour Taylor Swift is

1:18

definitely the outfits. To say nothing of the

1:20

willow cloaks. And I mean, anytime

1:22

there's a cloak involved, you know, it's pretty culty.

1:25

But the fact that this woman had us all dressing up not

1:27

just for her concert, but just as excited

1:29

to dress up for a movie theater experience

1:32

is unheard of in my opinion. Hi, this is Mimosa

1:35

from Finland. And as I am

1:37

from a country where eras tour is

1:39

not coming to, I have seen

1:41

how much effort Swifties have been putting

1:44

into just getting the tickets and

1:46

being able to attend. So it feels like

1:48

the tour itself has become bigger than

1:50

life. My name is Maeve. I'm from

1:52

Washington, DC. A lot of millennials

1:55

had children and they

1:56

now have little minis Swifties

1:58

running around who were just. born

2:00

into it and I've never known a world

2:02

without Taylor's socials. I think a new

2:05

cult-y thing that I've noticed but maybe

2:07

not necessarily one of the scary ones which do exist.

2:13

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a

2:16

show about the modern-day cults we

2:18

all follow. It's me, hi,

2:21

I'm the problem, it's me, your host

2:23

Amanda Montel, author of the books

2:25

Cultish, the language of fanaticism, and the

2:27

forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking

2:30

which will be published on April 9th. Every

2:32

week on the show you're gonna hear about a different group

2:34

or group

2:34

that puts the cult in culture

2:37

from SoulCycle to the Supreme Court

2:39

to try and answer the big questions. This

2:41

group sounds like a cult, but

2:44

isn't really.

2:54

Oh

2:55

my god, where

2:57

to begin? The cult of Taylor Swift.

3:01

There was a second one I was considering

3:04

doing this bonus part two introduction

3:06

using only Taylor Swift song

3:10

titles and lyrics because there are

3:12

so many now but then I decided

3:15

against it because I don't want to pander

3:17

too much to the Swifties during

3:19

this episode and I also want even

3:22

those outside the cult to be able to understand

3:24

what I'm saying so in the end I

3:26

decided that might not go over all too

3:28

well with

3:30

the jokes. Okay, it was high

3:33

time, some might even say overdue that a cult

3:36

of Taylor Swift part two episode hit

3:39

the airwaves because our cult of Taylor Swift

3:41

part one episode was recorded

3:44

and posted right as

3:46

Taylor's Midnight's album was coming out. I mean back

3:48

then we were thinking like how much bigger could this

3:50

cult even really get? How much

3:52

more power even is there for Taylor

3:55

Swift to claim? How much more charisma

3:57

can she generate? How much more fanaticism

3:59

and

5:59

I can't believe these in my opinion. I'm

6:02

gonna pop fear.

6:10

Now for those who maybe haven't listened to

6:13

the original Sounds Like a Cult, Cult of Taylor Swift

6:15

episode, I'm gonna re-air it this

6:17

week because there have been a lot of requests

6:19

to cover this cult recently. People think,

6:22

I don't get it. I'm rubbernecking

6:24

at it. I feel like I cannot question

6:26

this cult because it's so powerful

6:29

and Swifties are so devout

6:32

if you even ask a respectful

6:34

question like, hey, what's all the fuss

6:36

about? You will be met with an extreme reaction.

6:39

And so this part two bonus is here whether

6:42

you are an unabashed Taylor

6:44

Swift stan, a proper Swiftie,

6:47

whether you're a closet Swiftie, that's

6:49

a term I've heard bubbling up in private

6:52

conversations I've had with folks in the

6:55

wild, or whether you're absolutely

6:57

sick of Taylor Swift and don't understand

6:59

this cult whatsoever. Hopefully these

7:01

next 15 minutes will shed some light. I

7:03

myself did not go to the eras tour, but

7:07

I did have a friend of mine fly

7:10

from New York to Los Angeles

7:12

for 48 hours and spend $2,000 she didn't

7:15

really have to attend the IP.

7:18

She did procure me one of those coveted

7:20

dark blue sweatshirts at the merch

7:23

table and I like it and feel represented

7:25

by it because it's very subtle

7:27

Taylor merch. It doesn't have her face on

7:29

it. It has Taylor Swift written in very very

7:31

soft matte black letters on the front. It's

7:33

a sort of if you know you know piece of merch,

7:36

which means that outsiders or haters

7:39

won't necessarily clock it as Taylor Swift merch,

7:41

but insiders will and I

7:44

like cozying up to proper

7:46

Swifties because I like to be able to softly

7:49

interrogate them about their fanaticism because

7:51

not all Swifties are created equal. They all have

7:53

their slightly different denominations,

7:55

level of extremism, and I like learning

7:58

about what Taylor Swift means to them. While

8:00

I did not attend the Aeros tour myself,

8:03

I did watch the full concert on

8:05

YouTube, and the most curious part about

8:07

the concert to me was how

8:10

very, very different the energy

8:12

was on stage versus off

8:14

stage. Off stage, Swifties

8:17

are going absolutely ape

8:19

shit. They're like whipping their bodies

8:22

around, turning looks to

8:24

the gods, whether they're dressed up as

8:26

a full blown Christmas tree, as a nod

8:28

to the fact that Taylor grew up on a Christmas tree farm,

8:31

to speak now era

8:33

purple halter dress. There's a

8:35

whole sort of like Lord of the Rings-esque

8:38

universe to pull from when it comes to

8:41

the aesthetic, the rituals, and watching

8:43

Swifties in the audience truly gives

8:45

me the same feeling as when I watch videos

8:48

of Pentecostals speaking in tongues. And

8:50

what's going on physiologically is the

8:52

same. There is this dissociative

8:55

aspect when you get lost in

8:57

a religious group language

8:59

ritual like that. It puts you

9:02

in a state of escape, in a state

9:04

of transcendence, and in a really vulnerable

9:06

state where a leader could potentially

9:09

have great influence on you. Then

9:11

I look at Taylor Swift on stage, and

9:14

she is cool as a motherfucking

9:16

cucumber. She does not miss a beat.

9:19

On to these sort of bestie moments where she's

9:22

addressing the audience and her very casual,

9:25

charming girl next door. I know you

9:27

girl type of way. It's perfected.

9:30

It is flawless in a way

9:32

that feels robotic, but the followers

9:34

do not care. They are

9:37

in the presence of their exalted queen. They're

9:39

all engaging in this collective ritual, and

9:42

it makes people go fucking bonkers.

9:45

So that juxtaposition of someone sober

9:47

as a judge on stage, having

9:50

this command over followers

9:52

who are losing their shit, I mean,

9:54

it's the secular evangelical tent revival

9:56

of 2023.

9:59

Speaking of that juxtaposition of energies, I

10:02

kind of want to lead by quoting

10:04

a New Yorker journalist named Amanda

10:06

Petrusik, who attended the Eris

10:08

tour and wrote a review of it

10:10

that I really admired because it

10:13

provided outsiders or even haters

10:15

a window into what this event means

10:18

to attendees, but it was also really generous,

10:20

it wasn't snarky at all, and I want to read

10:22

a couple quotes from it. So Petrusik's

10:24

review says, from afar, Swift's

10:27

fans possessiveness appears both mighty

10:30

and frightening. Still, the

10:32

intensity of her fandom manifests so

10:35

differently offline. Swift's

10:37

performance might be fixed, perfect,

10:41

but what happens in the crowd is messy,

10:43

wild, benevolent, and beautiful. Swift's

10:46

fandom is tied to the primal urge to

10:48

have something to protect and be protected by.

10:52

In recent years, community, one

10:54

of our most elemental human pleasures, has

10:56

been decimated by COVID, politics,

10:59

technology, capitalism. These

11:01

days, people will take it where they can get

11:03

it. Swift often sings

11:06

about alienation and yearning. She has

11:08

written many songs that describe her devotion as

11:10

punishment to be endured. She believes

11:12

that the force of her affection will push

11:15

people away, but her fans

11:17

have remained. They have buoyed

11:19

her. In turn, she has given them

11:21

everything. I

11:23

love those lines, and what

11:26

Amanda Petrusik is really speaking about there is that

11:28

Swift sings so much

11:30

in her lyrics about feeling

11:32

rejected, especially by romantic

11:34

partners in her life. A partner's love

11:36

is conditional or only there for a weekend,

11:39

but her fans' love is

11:41

relentless. They wouldn't leave

11:43

her no matter what she does, and that

11:46

creates a kind of parasocial

11:49

codependency between Taylor and her

11:51

Swifties that I think is felt on both sides.

11:53

What the eristaur really showed

11:55

us is that Taylor Swift has

11:58

built an incredibly robust religious

12:00

world that provides not just one

12:02

aesthetic and set of traditions, but

12:05

in collection of them. So there's now

12:07

an energy, a uniform, a set

12:10

of sacred texts for anyone,

12:13

no matter what you're going through in your life. And

12:15

by anyone, I mean mostly an audience of

12:17

young women whose emotions

12:20

have been historically belittled,

12:22

dismissed, and are now validated

12:25

in this explosively meaningful

12:27

way by a woman who's kind

12:30

of taken over the fucking world. She

12:32

also provides them a space,

12:34

whether online or in person.

12:37

And of course, when you connect in person, that's a whole

12:39

different kettle of fish. And in those massive

12:41

stadiums, followers can develop

12:44

their own set of community rituals,

12:46

like the exchange of friendship bracelets at

12:49

her concerts or dancing in

12:51

a Midsommar-esque circle,

12:53

all wearing the same outfits like Swifties

12:55

were captured doing in the movie theaters during

12:57

the showings of her heiress tour film.

13:00

And the role of Taylor Swift as a quote

13:02

unquote cult leader is partially

13:05

that of a deity. People definitely

13:07

worship her on the level of God. But I

13:10

think it's actually more influential

13:12

and more profound than a deity because

13:15

she has mastered the art of making

13:17

the parasocial one

13:20

sided plural you feel

13:22

like the singular you she interacts

13:25

with her fans just enough but not too

13:27

much. She's not like a God who you pray to

13:29

but doesn't directly answer you actually

13:31

can go see her in person. And as

13:34

perfect and literally

13:36

staged as she is, she does

13:39

sometimes actually listen

13:41

to her fans prayers like

13:43

the demands from Swifties that she make cruel

13:45

summer a single her energy

13:48

is like bestie meets nurturing

13:51

parent figure meets prophet

13:53

style savior meets of course

13:56

musical entertainer and music has such

13:58

a profound physiological effect

14:00

on our bodies and minds. I mean,

14:02

if that isn't culturism,

14:04

I don't know what is. And because

14:07

she's become so good

14:10

at passing off money-making

14:13

endeavors as like angelic

14:15

little tokens of generosity

14:17

for her loyalist fans, she's

14:20

able to turn every ritualistic

14:23

moment that comes to pass into a merchandising

14:26

opportunity, whether it's releasing

14:29

a film of her concert

14:31

or collector's edition vinyl covers.

14:34

But what's fascinating also about Taylor

14:36

Swift is that unlike certain cult

14:38

leaders whose charisma is like really,

14:41

really specific, and their

14:43

style of delivery is so sort of like

14:45

peculiar and eccentric that it's not for

14:48

everyone, Taylor Swift is kind

14:50

of neutral enough that fans

14:52

can project whatever they want onto

14:54

her and actually think that that's the most

14:57

underrated part of her appeal. One

14:59

of the reasons why I love talking to

15:01

individual Swifties is that there is such

15:04

a range of fans from those so-called

15:06

closet Swifties to full-blown

15:09

fanatical gaylers. That's one of

15:11

her sort of more like conspiratorial fan

15:13

sects who are absolutely convinced

15:16

that Taylor Swift is queer and constantly

15:18

dropping hints proving that, the way

15:20

that, you know, legit conspiracy

15:23

theorists are always interpreting random

15:25

events as proof of their convictions that

15:28

some dark evil elite is secretly

15:30

controlling the sociopolitical order. It's kind

15:32

of like a soft pastel-y version

15:34

of that mentality. And the way that you engage with

15:36

Taylor Swift has so much to do with your

15:39

own individual identity. I

15:41

love learning like when did any individual

15:43

Swiftie fall in love with her music? Was it

15:46

all the way back with her original country albums?

15:48

Was it not until 1989? Not until

15:51

folklore and the pandemic? What's the wildest

15:54

thing they'd potentially do in defense of their

15:56

idol? What's the wildest thing that they have done?

15:59

Have they had relationship? damaged by getting

16:01

into fights over Taylor Swift. Recently

16:03

at a birthday party I met a

16:05

Kayler in person which is a

16:08

subsect of Gayler that specifically

16:10

thinks that Taylor Swift and her friend

16:12

Carly Kloss were at some

16:15

point in a romantic relationship and

16:17

I asked her like is there anything

16:20

that could convince you that this

16:22

theory about Taylor Swift is not true and

16:25

this person who seemed like an otherwise

16:27

like pretty reasonable individual I'd never met her

16:29

before but you know she was at this normal

16:31

birthday party having normal conversations she

16:33

both based admitted nothing could prove

16:36

to me that I'm wrong about this unless

16:38

Taylor Swift showed up here and told

16:40

me herself. It was like shockingly

16:43

delusional and it's not it's

16:45

not a big deal or anything because the

16:47

conspiracy theory on the table here and

16:49

the characters that we're talking about are not

16:51

like religious extremists political

16:54

extremists it's Taylor Swift it's

16:56

low stakes but the cultish belief

16:58

behind it is very similar

17:01

even if the aesthetic and the cinematic universe

17:04

so to speak is not. I've been

17:06

looking into irrational belief

17:08

for the past two years because of my new

17:10

book The Age of Magical Overthinking and

17:12

I understand that this Swiftie

17:15

was in large part motivated by confirmation

17:17

bias she had decided on a conclusion anything

17:20

could be construed as an argument supporting

17:22

that conclusion and one of the reasons why no proof

17:25

could matter to her is because this

17:28

Taylor lore is a belief that

17:30

makes her feel seen it

17:32

makes her feel less alone it's that

17:34

thing that Amanda Petrucic said in her review

17:37

engaging in this belief makes her feel protective

17:39

of Taylor Swift and also

17:41

protected by Taylor Swift and

17:44

I don't think Taylor ever would come forward

17:46

and dispel the belief because she doesn't

17:49

want to do anything to disturb whatever

17:51

gives people that feeling in part because I think

17:53

it would mean she'd be losing a fan obviously

17:56

as audience members we can't ever know

17:58

Taylor Swift's

17:59

truth

17:59

whatever that even means,

18:02

no matter how much the public, you know,

18:04

attempts to dig and speculate

18:07

about her private life, who can really

18:09

know, but I do want to present a

18:11

secondhand data point that might

18:14

provide some food for thought. I have a friend

18:16

who used to be an entertainment journalist like 10-15 years

18:18

ago and right at the very very beginning

18:21

of Taylor Swift's career, my friend went

18:23

on tour with her for a very short period of time

18:25

in order to write an entertainment cover story

18:27

about her. This friend of mine is queer,

18:30

non-binary, could potentially have a lot

18:32

of validation to gain from Taylor

18:35

Swift being queer, and so I

18:37

asked like, do you think Taylor Swift is gay? My

18:39

friend said from what I observed, absolutely

18:42

the fuck not. Trigger warning

18:45

for any Swifties who like don't

18:47

want to hear even the mildest

18:49

form of criticism from someone who

18:51

spent a little bit of time with her, actually this isn't

18:53

even criticism, it's just that what my friend said is

18:55

that Taylor Swift was extremely

18:58

people-pleasing and vanilla.

19:01

Her favorite food at the time was literally

19:03

vanilla ice cream, and that's

19:07

not a negative judgment necessarily because

19:09

I was thinking, some people think of vanilla

19:11

as plain, but vanilla as a

19:13

flavor isn't actually plain,

19:16

it is a flavor. In fact, it's

19:18

a flavor that everybody likes because

19:20

you can either just have it, be sort

19:22

of mild and delicious, or you

19:25

could add a million toppings on it, whatever you

19:27

want, cookie crumbles, rainbow sprinkles, whatever.

19:29

And this I think

19:32

is the ultimate cult leader quality, which

19:34

I think Taylor Swift actually comes by pretty honestly.

19:37

It's that ability to make everybody

19:39

feel like she is speaking uniquely

19:42

to them, that no matter who you are, she

19:44

is your flavor. She wants

19:46

her fans to feel loved

19:49

and for them to love her. She's

19:51

a chameleon, a shapeshifter, a mirror

19:54

with just enough flavor that doesn't

19:57

feel dishonest

19:58

or creepy.

19:59

to stay, vanilla, to maintain

20:02

her power. She can't get too political

20:04

even when certain fans want her to, which

20:06

I actually personally think is probably good

20:09

because think about when celebrities

20:11

stray too far outside their lane into politics,

20:14

she can get culty on a whole other level. Taylor

20:16

Swift stays in her lane.

20:18

She just like

20:20

is driving a monster truck through it.

20:22

Again, a lot of artists are too

20:24

specific, but not Taylor Swift.

20:27

She's the exact leader each of

20:29

her fans wants her to be. At least

20:32

that's how she appears. And that's

20:34

why her stand-up dynamics can turn as zealous and

20:36

religious as crusaders because a threat

20:39

to any single Taylor Swift song or

20:41

belief or behavior is a threat to their

20:44

identity. As you might be able to tell, I

20:46

have been thinking a lot about this stuff

20:49

because the first chapter in my new book is

20:51

called Are You My Mother Taylor Swift? A Note on

20:53

the Halo Effect, which is a cognitive

20:55

bias that plays a significant

20:57

role in the sort of cycles of celebrity

21:00

worship and disrondment that we see

21:02

in our culture right now. It's truly one

21:04

of my favorite chapters. It talks not only

21:07

about how we worship celebrities

21:09

and then knock them off their pedestals as soon as

21:11

they quote-unquote betray us, but also

21:14

how those tendencies connect

21:16

to our relationships to our own parents. This

21:18

chapter is like analytical in pop culture, but

21:20

it's also deeply personal. I talk

21:23

about my relationship to my own mother in it.

21:25

So no matter where on the celebrity

21:28

stand spectrum you fall, I think

21:30

that the book might appeal to anyone

21:32

listening to this episode. These cultivoracious

21:36

stand dynamics are just endlessly

21:38

fascinating to me and I do feel like I was

21:41

able to express them best in that chapter.

21:43

So anyway, I just wanted to tell

21:45

their identity. As you might be able

21:47

to tell, I have been thinking a lot

21:49

about this stuff because the first

21:51

chapter in my new book is called, Are You My

21:53

Mother, Taylor Swift? A Note on the Halo Effect,

21:56

which is a cognitive bias that plays

21:59

a significant role in the world. in the sort of cycles

22:01

of celebrity worship and disrondment

22:04

that we see in our culture right now. It's

22:06

truly one of my favorite chapters. It talks

22:08

not only about how we worship

22:11

celebrities and then knock them off their pedestals

22:13

as soon as they quote unquote betray us, but also

22:16

how those tendencies connect

22:18

to our relationships to our own parents. This

22:20

chapter is like analytical and pop-cultry, but

22:23

it's also deeply personal. I talk

22:25

about my relationship to my own mother in it.

22:27

So no matter where on the celebrity

22:30

stand spectrum you fall, I think

22:32

that the book might appeal to anyone

22:34

listening to this episode. These culty

22:37

voracious stand dynamics are just endlessly

22:40

fascinating to me and I do feel like I

22:42

was able to express them best in that chapter.

22:45

So anyway, I just wanted to tell

22:47

you about it. The book is called The Age of Magical Overthinking

22:49

and it doesn't come out till April 9th, but it's available

22:52

for pre-order now. Anywho,

22:55

I hope you enjoyed this little updated analysis.

22:58

Thank you so much for listening and now

23:01

I am going to be re-airing our

23:04

classic now year old episode,

23:06

I cannot believe it's only been a year, on

23:08

the Cult of Taylor Swift.

23:22

The views expressed in this episode, as with

23:24

all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely

23:26

host opinions and quoted allegations. The

23:29

content here should not be taken as indisputable.

23:31

This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

23:34

Hi, I'm Ashley from SoCal and I think the cultiest

23:36

thing about Taylor Swift is how she has glues,

23:39

references and puzzles in her post

23:41

on social media and how her fans

23:44

immediately scramble to try and figure out

23:46

what her next album is going to be. Hi, my name is

23:48

Nicole and I am from Chicago. Her

23:50

fans are unable to admit that sometimes

23:52

she is in the wrong and I think that

23:55

her fans are constantly wanting

23:57

to victimize her and view her

23:59

as an understatement. instead of someone who's already

24:01

won the game 10 times over. Hi,

24:04

I'm Layla and I'm calling from California. I think

24:06

the cultiest thing about Taylor Swift is how carefully

24:09

curated her image is and how her brand

24:11

changes so drastically depending on what quote-unquote

24:13

era she's in. You know, you see snake emojis and dark lipstick

24:16

and think reputation, pink and butterflies

24:18

are lover, cardigans and forests

24:21

are folklore, and fans play into these aesthetics too, so

24:24

with every new album, you have people totally revamping their Instagram feeds. It's

24:27

like cultiness squared because you have the cultiness

24:29

of categorizing yourself into niche aesthetics on social

24:31

media and then the cultiness of having

24:33

that brand

24:34

be dictated by celebrities.

24:36

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about

24:39

the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Isa Medina and I'm

24:41

a comedian. I'm Amanda Montel, author of

24:43

the book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism. Every

24:46

week on our show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that

24:48

puts the cult in culture from crypto to the

24:51

skincare industry. To try and answer the big question,

24:54

this group sounds like a cult, but

24:56

is it really? I

25:02

can safely say I have never been more intimidated

25:04

to cover a topic than the cult of Taylor

25:07

Swift. No, I completely agree. I think this one's

25:09

scary. I mean, even just mentioning Taylor Swift in

25:12

our episode, The Cult of Celebrity Stands. Season

25:14

one. Season

25:16

one was scurry. Scurry, but

25:19

I do feel at the end of the day, since

25:21

I am a low-key Swiftie, we are going to be providing a

25:24

full 360 analysis of the situation.

25:28

I have at times, not

25:30

identified as full-blown Swiftie, but have really

25:32

connected with her music. Like when

25:34

I was 20 years old and

25:36

living in Brooklyn during the fall time, that's when I was really

25:38

pounding red, the original red

25:41

release. And I really identified with

25:43

it then, but that's the thing about Taylor Swift's fundamentalism,

25:46

is that I often feel like you're not allowed

25:48

to be a casual Taylor

25:50

Swift listener. That's so true. I like

25:52

that you called it fundamentalism. Because at the end of the

25:54

day, I mean, all of her songs and all of her albums are just so

25:56

worth it. relatable.

26:00

I mean, they're either about being a certain age,

26:03

falling in love, getting your heart broken. Those

26:05

are all things that we can relate to and

26:07

if we can't relate to them, we make up

26:09

scenarios thinking

26:11

that we're in love and then we listen to the music

26:13

and romanticize our lives. That's what I did in high school.

26:16

I like never had a high school relationship,

26:18

but I suppose listening

26:20

to Fearless was sort of my first introduction

26:23

to what being young and in love felt

26:26

like. Oh for sure. I mean the first time I

26:28

like really really listened to Taylor Swift was after

26:30

I broke up with my freshman year boyfriend,

26:32

LOL gay. And I

26:35

listened to the song Back to December as

26:37

if like he had broken my heart. I

26:39

ultimately did break up with him because I didn't

26:42

want to be with him, but he was hot

26:44

and cool and then went on to date another hot cool

26:46

girl. So I was like still salty about the whole situation.

26:49

My only serious romantic Tristan

26:51

high school is also with a gay man. Wait,

26:53

no that one wasn't gay. Oh the gay

26:56

guy I dated was my college boyfriend.

26:58

Sorry. Sorry. I lost my virginity too. Yeah,

27:00

I lost my virginity to a gay guy. I

27:03

always say I should have known he was gay because every time

27:05

I asked him to go down on me, he was like, yes queen. The

27:08

high school one was straight and we only did

27:10

like hand stuff. You're

27:14

so right. Taylor Swift is a populist

27:17

cult leader queen. Yeah, she's able to

27:20

appeal to the lowest common denominator

27:22

of basic and as

27:24

our cult of weddings guest Gia Tolentino

27:27

astutely put it it feels so good to

27:29

be basic. It does. Much

27:31

like Disney adults Taylor Swift is actually

27:33

the perfect sounds like a cult

27:36

topic because on the surface it seems

27:38

really low stakes and really innocent. She's

27:41

just a pop star who's worshipped by all

27:43

these sort of twee young women.

27:46

But underneath the surface it

27:48

gets incredibly fanatical, incredibly

27:51

culty in a way that sometimes

27:54

sends a shock through my system the way that

27:56

I will sometimes watch like Nexium

27:59

documentaries and Jones. documentaries and be like,

28:01

this is frightful. Yeah,

28:03

for sure. And I think that's because a lot

28:05

of Taylor Swift's fandom and cult

28:08

following is in their feelings.

28:11

Taylor Swift gets them into her cult

28:13

in a place where they're feeling very vulnerable, in

28:15

a place where they're feeling like they don't

28:18

know what to do next. And then they listen to Taylor's music

28:20

and they're like, you helped me get

28:22

through the darkest moments of my life

28:25

and now I owe you my life. The way

28:27

that you describe that is absolutely accurate

28:29

and is utterly symmetrical

28:32

with the way that people have spoken about Keith

28:35

Ranieri when they first got involved with Nexium,

28:37

Heaven's Gate when they first got involved with Marshall Applewhite

28:39

and Bonnie Nettles, the founder of that cult. The stakes

28:42

for the cult of Taylor Swift and Swiftie are obviously

28:44

much lower and the consequences are different. But

28:46

the fanaticism is the same. That

28:49

makes sense. That's happened to me. I have

28:51

to check myself because I can become

28:53

such an obsessive fan that that's why I really

28:56

am not a 100% cult

28:58

fan of anything because the tides could turn and

29:00

it could become my whole life. So even when

29:02

Taylor's version of Red came out and

29:05

All Too Well came out, I was kind of going through

29:07

a little something myself. And I listened

29:09

to All Too Well so much. It helped me get

29:11

through that. And then I started going on YouTube

29:14

and watching videos of her and watching all of her fandom

29:16

overanalyze every move she made. I was like,

29:18

I need to step it back. Yeah. Being

29:21

a host of this podcast, you can notice when

29:23

you're starting to trip and fall too deeply

29:25

into a cult. But I think what you're getting at is the fanaticism

29:28

of Taylor Swift fandom, which parallels

29:30

the fanaticism of so many destructive cults, is

29:33

really motivated by us as humans

29:35

not wanting to feel alone. And Taylor Swift

29:38

really helps people feel like they are a part

29:40

of something larger than themselves and that they're not the only

29:42

person going through something. But it's so funny

29:45

because like, I don't even get a toe

29:47

in the door in cultie communities. I have been conditioned

29:49

to be so skeptical and so cynical. And when I

29:51

watch YouTube videos of

29:54

hardcore Swifties reacting to her album

29:56

drops, for example, and I'm so horrified and I'm

29:58

rubbernecking and I'm treating it like true crime.

31:59

I mean there's her persona,

32:02

the cult of her personality, and then there's her whole

32:04

flock of hardcore Swifties, and then within

32:06

that fan cult there are different denominations

32:08

and irrational beliefs and conspiracy theories

32:11

that people dedicate hours and hours

32:13

to unpacking and defending. For example,

32:15

there are whole subgroups of her fandom

32:17

called Kailers and Galers

32:20

who are constantly sharing clues pointing

32:22

to Taylor Swift being queer, and we

32:24

don't have time to dig into all of the weeds of

32:27

that, so we just want to warn y'all that we

32:29

might need to do a part two of this episode because

32:31

as we were saying even though Taylor Swift is just

32:33

a pop star, we could low-key describe the

32:35

whole story of Heaven's Gate in an hour more

32:38

easily than the cult of Taylor, also because

32:40

the Heaven's Gate members are dead and won't come

32:42

for us. Yeah, exactly. That's one

32:44

aspect that is less scary. There are parts of the Taylor

32:46

Swift cult that she leans into intentionally.

32:49

Obviously, it's been so amazing for her career

32:52

that people's love for her goes way beyond

32:54

music, and I think that's because she's been around for just

32:56

so long. We grew up with her and it's a whole aesthetic

32:58

and identity that comes with rituals like hunting

33:01

for Easter egg clues about future songs,

33:03

which she puts in her posts, and hierarchies

33:05

like being blessed to come to one of her private listening

33:08

parties. I mean, there's even a Starbucks drink,

33:10

and there's also uniform we can all kind

33:12

of recognize like chunky sweaters and

33:15

side braids and heart-shaped sunglasses

33:17

and cups of tea and cats. I was actually going

33:19

to say that if you're in the cult of Taylor Swift,

33:21

it's mostly that like you're obsessed with cats. Yeah,

33:24

the same way that she is. I love cats. I love red lipstick.

33:27

It's giving Christian modesty blogger

33:29

vibes. That is exactly

33:31

it. Yeah, and this is

33:33

such a genius marketing technique because it comes

33:35

back to that idea of the identity template

33:37

that we touch on all the time, where in

33:40

this particular time in history when there's

33:42

at least the illusion of so

33:44

many options for who to be

33:46

and what to think, it just feels so comforting to have

33:49

this guiding light like I'm a Swiftie and

33:51

this is how Swifties act and other Swifties are

33:53

my tribe and followers can become dependent

33:56

on that identity to feel whole which is I

33:58

think part of why they're so protective of. Of course

34:00

you want to not have a million options and

34:03

just follow your leader I don't even know what deodorant

34:05

to use these days, you know But her fans

34:07

really do worship her as this enlightened leader

34:09

If you combine the most popular

34:11

girl in school with your best friend and a mythical

34:14

goddess That's how people feel about her and

34:16

her song Yeah, there's also like this elitism

34:19

where if you don't get her songs or if you don't think

34:21

they're good then there's clearly something profoundly

34:23

Wrong with you.

34:24

I felt that way about when people didn't like

34:27

the movie everything everywhere at once You just

34:29

don't get it. I feel that way about that movie too. I'm

34:31

in the cult of that movie Yeah, me too and bagels

34:33

everything bagel everything bagel. It all comes

34:35

back to it It always goes back to bagels or

34:38

bad bunny for me It really always just

34:40

goes back to bad money But watching videos

34:42

of Swifties analyzing her lyrics

34:44

is fascinating because it feels like Bible

34:46

study and people are over

34:49

analyzing it trying to figure out

34:51

what their God's real message might have been

34:53

and I feel like her lyrics like The Bible

34:55

to Christians or Disney movies to Disney

34:57

adults are like a scripture by which they

35:00

live their lives They're just next-level

35:02

inspiring because they relate to our love lives

35:05

and it's like do I think Taylor Swift's music

35:07

is good some of it Yes, absolutely,

35:10

and it should be okay only to like some of

35:12

it or not at all Do I think even

35:14

her best songs are worthy of some of

35:16

this fanaticism for me? No,

35:18

but I also know that it's

35:20

not just about the music It's about that feeling

35:23

of being part of this passionate community.

35:25

That's so much bigger than yourself And that's

35:27

possibly the most transcended experience emotionally

35:30

that a human can have beyond falling in

35:32

love with one other person because you're literally

35:34

in a giant group of people who are

35:36

all bonding over the feeling of being

35:38

in love with the same person and that

35:40

comes with jealousy and Competition for attention

35:42

like who's the best cult member who's the best Swiftie? But

35:45

those feelings will still always come second

35:47

to the much bigger and more Spiritual calling

35:50

to unite over this one brilliant all-knowing figure.

35:52

Yeah, the difference though Is that Charles Manson

35:55

knew all his followers personally and

35:57

Taylor Swift doesn't know any of these

35:59

Although she does claim to lurk

36:02

the internet for what everyone is saying,

36:04

that is part of her genius, is that she's so

36:06

good at making every one of her followers

36:08

feel like she does know them.

36:19

I'm a viva calling for help and the

36:21

stands worship at their feet.

36:35

And they will buy all eight versions of folklore,

36:37

spend

36:38

every waking hour theorizing about her

36:40

next move, and they will dogpile on

36:42

anyone who dares to criticize her. And

36:44

she will encourage it by sending gifts or inviting

36:46

fans to her house, so everyone gets even

36:48

more frenzied and desperate because of that

36:50

tiny chance that she'll notice them. My

36:53

name is Amy, I live in Northern Virginia and

36:55

I am a hardcore Swissie. You'll

36:57

often hear the jazz like our lord and

37:00

savior,

37:00

Taylor Allison Swift, worshiping

37:03

at the altar of Taylor Swift during the church.

37:05

Taylor

37:05

seems totally guilty of these because

37:08

I think it's funny because I'm like a human, but

37:10

the deification

37:11

is definitely

37:13

culty.

37:16

So let's get some background on

37:18

Taylor Swift. Who is she? Where did she come

37:21

from? Pennsylvania, we talked about this, is a really

37:23

alien place.

37:24

Yeah, yeah, crop circles, crop

37:26

circles, the Amish. Taylor Swift was famously

37:29

born in 1989 after

37:31

a group of aliens dropped her into Pennsylvania. No,

37:33

I'm just kidding. But she was born there and

37:35

she has this America's sweetheart persona.

37:38

She places a lot of emphasis on her family and her

37:40

wholesome origins, but she doesn't mention

37:42

Pennsylvania a lot because when she was young,

37:45

as soon as she decided she wanted to pursue music,

37:47

her family was like, okay, girlie, let's

37:49

do it. And they moved the whole family

37:51

to Nashville. They helped her pursue music,

37:53

which clearly a good investment on their part because

37:55

look how it turned out. Seriously, people often

37:58

forget that she's from Pennsylvania. and

38:00

not Nashville because I think it's better for

38:02

her relatable persona and

38:04

her rags to riches narrative to let people

38:06

believe that she's from the South. So

38:09

she signed her record deal so young in 2004 at 14

38:12

years old and released her debut album two

38:14

years later at 16 years old. She

38:16

received her first top 40 hit, Tim

38:19

McGraw, we all know that song, we love that song, off

38:21

that album and she released her first number one

38:23

album, Fearless in 2008, which was, may I add, a

38:26

peak point in all of our youths.

38:29

Seriously, the economy was crashing,

38:31

hope was lost, and

38:34

there was Taylor Swift there to pick up the pieces.

38:36

When I broke up with my boyfriend, because I didn't like

38:38

him fingering me. Sorry, did

38:40

I not mention? No, it did feel bad back then. I remember

38:42

my first fingering. I wasn't like wet. No, no.

38:46

No, I remember it hurt, but I was like, I have

38:48

to just rip off the band-aid. It felt like

38:50

someone was putting a tampon in me when

38:53

I was not on my period. Completely, oh my God. I'll

38:55

never forget it. I was just lying there being like, I

38:57

can't be 16 years old and have never been

38:59

fingered. I mean, same. And

39:02

then once I did it, I was like, all right, I'll set it off for checklist.

39:04

I know, I was like, whew, big, I'll never again.

39:07

I feel like that's how everyone feels about losing their virginity.

39:10

It's like not fun, but you

39:12

gotta do it at some point. I know, it should be fun,

39:15

or it should be at least like not

39:17

fun for both parties. Yes. I

39:20

don't come neither do you. Exactly.

39:23

You could almost argue that she was pulling cult

39:25

leader style antics with her family

39:27

at a young age because she was able to

39:29

convince them to make that move to Nashville for

39:31

her career. And they had the money and the resources

39:34

to do that. So this sort of implicit narrative that she's

39:36

a small town, innocent country girl who came from nothing

39:38

and struck it big on talent and luck alone is like not quite

39:40

it. She wants to relate to the masses. So of course

39:43

it's just very smart. It's brilliant.

39:45

And I think the fact that she got started really young

39:48

combined with her very clever, populist,

39:51

relatable songwriting instincts and her work

39:53

ethic because you can't knock it. She has a really

39:55

impressive work ethic. Add all that to the music industry's

39:57

conditioning, turned her very quickly into

39:59

this. America

42:01

is ruled by patriarchy.

42:03

What? Just in

42:05

America alone? Wait, no,

42:07

that's a good point because Taylor Swift is world famous

42:10

and much of the world is ruled by patriarchy. As

42:12

soon as Taylor Swift got really famous, she quickly

42:14

turned into someone that the media

42:16

and general pop culture love to hate.

42:19

So she's often served as a target for a lot of society's

42:21

general misogyny because she's not exactly cool

42:24

or sexy in the male, gazing way

42:26

that the Kardashians are, for example,

42:28

she's this sort of quirky, adorkable, sensitive

42:31

over-sharer and people have

42:33

infamously critiqued her for that and have

42:35

roasted her dating life in ways that felt

42:38

sexist. There was the whole Kanye feud,

42:40

of course, but she very

42:43

quickly turned the narrative to position

42:45

herself in the face of all of that sexist criticism

42:48

as this inspiring female

42:50

empowerment icon, which really

42:52

worked because people love a good versus

42:54

evil story, especially among celebrities. And

42:56

I think this kind of highlights

42:58

her culture being

43:00

very Southern to be this quaint,

43:02

nice woman who never says anything mean

43:04

herself but gets other people to fight her battles

43:07

for her. It goes back and forth

43:09

at times where she was wrong and she shouldn't

43:11

have and also she put on

43:13

these flashing lights of like, help me, help me, I'm

43:15

this weak woman who needs help and it's like, you are

43:18

now an adult and you can speak

43:20

for yourself. But she was a

43:22

child for most of her fame and her

43:24

company was controlled by adults around her. So

43:27

even though she was this like rich, powerful

43:29

person, she wasn't able to control her

43:31

narrative until like a lot more recently. That's

43:33

an interesting point, like how much of her public

43:36

narrative was she able to drive

43:38

herself having been a minor for the

43:40

beginning years of her stardom?

43:43

But she definitely does flatten

43:45

narratives into these good evil binaries.

43:47

For sure. She certainly positions herself as a feminist

43:50

idol but it's ultimately a pretty shallow white

43:52

feminist message. A lot of the time that doesn't

43:54

always feel genuine or inclusive,

43:57

I mean, we can't forget casual

43:59

culture.

43:59

appropriate

44:00

of music videos, like Shake It Off,

44:03

there was that public feud with Nicki Minaj,

44:05

and let's certainly not forget that her squad,

44:08

which was high-key endorsing mean girl

44:10

clickiness, had this very conformist

44:13

uniform look of all tall white, normatively

44:15

gorgeous women, which to

44:17

Taylor and her fan base was kind of this symbol of white

44:20

feminists sticking together. And it really

44:22

feels like there's sort of this

44:25

exclusivity around her cult that

44:27

if you don't look a certain way, and if you don't think

44:29

a certain way, and if you weren't raised a certain

44:31

way, then you might not even be allowed

44:34

to join. It's not hospitable for all

44:37

women in the way that she makes it seem. Yeah.

44:40

And yet it's scary

44:42

to express criticism like this of

44:44

Taylor Swift, not because of how she'll

44:46

retaliate, but because of how her stans

44:49

will retaliate. Yeah, and

44:51

the stans are strong. I mean, when

44:53

you have 225 million followers

44:55

on Instagram, even if just 5% of those

44:58

followers are stans to the death,

45:00

that's thousands and thousands of people. Yes,

45:02

please be gentle with us. I actually

45:04

know that there is like a good, significant

45:07

overlap between Swifties and people

45:09

who read my work. Again, I'm just like teetering

45:12

up against the Swiftie culture. Even just

45:14

like the colors you use on the covers of your book.

45:17

I mean, it's a dress you're wearing right now. Well, I

45:19

wore this like, twee-ass puffy sleeve pink

45:21

ass dress on purpose for the theme, but

45:23

that just goes to show how conformity

45:26

can happen so quickly. I'm wearing this ironically,

45:28

but it's like, is it ironic? No. I don't know.

45:30

I already owned this. You also do

45:32

famously wear red lipstick all the time,

45:34

which is a very Taylor Swift thing. I am

45:37

interested in clever marketing, and she

45:39

is very interested in clever marketing, whether or not she's willing

45:41

to admit it. Yeah, and I guess just like a

45:43

mid-episode disclaimer, we are tearing

45:45

this apart and looking into all the aspects

45:48

of Taylor Swift, but when we analyze someone,

45:50

that doesn't inherently make them a bad person, you

45:52

know? She's just a pop star with so

45:55

much influence that to not look into

45:57

it would be a disservice. It

45:59

would be eerie. responsible

46:01

as the host. This sounds like a cult because

46:03

there's no content on her on the

46:06

internet whatsoever. How would you ever learn about her? Actually,

46:08

speaking of all of the conspiratorialism

46:11

surrounding Taylor Swift, there was once

46:13

a tip that she might have been starting a book

46:16

club. Think of something more innocent than a book

46:18

club and her Swifties were

46:20

like ripping the internet to shreds

46:23

trying to look for clues about like which books

46:26

Taylor Swift was choosing and it was so aggressive

46:28

but the content itself was so innocent

46:31

and that's the juxtaposition that makes the Taylor

46:33

Swift fandom so spooky to me is that everyone's

46:36

in pink lipstick and loving cats but

46:38

they will go for the jungler if you

46:40

come from their queen. Oh definitely and we'll talk about

46:42

that when we talk to our guests today.

46:45

You'll have to experience that on a personal level

46:47

but as cultiest Taylor Swift is herself,

46:49

the cultiest part of Taylor Swift is

46:52

her following. The Swifties themselves,

46:54

they just have such an extreme us

46:56

versus them mentality. Swifties have been known to

46:59

go on the attack whenever they

47:01

perceive that their idol

47:03

is not being treated properly. Here

47:05

are some examples, one that stood out to me in particular

47:07

was in 2021 when she called out

47:10

the Ginny and Georgia writers for making a joke

47:12

about her and Swifties immediately

47:15

docked the show's reviews and

47:17

it tanked it on Netflix. She tweeted,

47:19

hey Ginny and Georgia 2010 called and it

47:21

wants its lazy deeply sexist

47:23

joke back. How about we stop degrading hard-working

47:26

women by defending this horseshit as funny.

47:29

Also at Netflix after Miss Americana

47:31

this outfit doesn't look too cute on you. Aye

47:33

yai yai. Happy Women's History Month I

47:35

guess. And just so you guys know the joke in

47:37

the show was what do you care you go

47:40

through men faster than Taylor Swift. It's so

47:42

light just the way that she tweeted

47:44

that was just so passive-aggressive.

47:46

It was actively aggressive. She

47:48

was trying to be like lol joke joke but

47:51

she was clearly mad about it. So unwilling

47:53

to take a joke like have a little humor

47:55

about yourself you have literally everything in the world. Yeah

47:58

I'm just an innocent small town girl from Pennsylvania

48:01

and I'm just trying to empower women.

48:04

It's like take a joke girlfriend. Like

48:06

we all can. I know I feel bad every

48:08

time we go hard on her I'm like but girly

48:10

invite me to your parties. I'm

48:13

just gonna say it it is true unfortunately

48:15

Taylor Swift cannot take a joke. And she

48:18

even talks about not being able to take the joke.

48:20

I think she thinks she can take a joke. I

48:22

famously have not been able to take a joke as

48:24

a kid and then I was like oh I'll just become a comedian.

48:27

I can get in front of it and I can take a joke and like roast

48:29

people back. The thing with taking jokes

48:31

is that when people roast you you don't

48:33

say hey I didn't do that. You roast them

48:36

back. Yeah. But since she's not roasting

48:38

she's defending the roast. And it is very

48:41

unfunny to be this aggro in

48:43

the face of a little tiny joke that was made

48:45

about you. Yeah when she tweets about something and

48:47

all her fans go after that

48:50

something to defend her it is dogmatic

48:53

idol worship. It's this responsibility

48:56

that her followers or her Swifties feel

48:59

to go extreme lengths for the sake of defending

49:01

their idol. Yes they are so overprotective.

49:04

There are so many examples of this. There was a Pitchfork

49:07

writer who gave her album Folklore an 8

49:09

out of 10 instead of 10 out of 10 and

49:11

her followers literally doxed that person

49:13

revealed their name and their personal details. It

49:15

was scary. They're just a freaking little internet

49:18

writer. One fan told Elle.com

49:20

that Taylor Swift feels like a childhood friend

49:22

to her. She said I just feel this motherly

49:25

instinct to stand up for her because she can't possibly

49:28

defend herself in every situation.

49:30

When you are at that level of

49:32

fame and money

49:34

you don't need to defend yourself because you

49:37

are making money off of all of those comments.

49:38

You are making money off of that hate

49:40

as well. And that's why if you

49:43

want to have this job you need to

49:45

be able to compartmentalize and disassociate.

49:48

She doesn't need people defending her and she also doesn't

49:50

need to be defending herself at all hours of

49:52

the day. No and I'll say this too. The impulse

49:54

to want to defend yourself against senseless internet

49:56

hate. No one is above that. I have friends

49:59

who've been through being notes with chronic illnesses,

50:01

like having family members die, and even they

50:03

are not immune to strangers on the internet

50:05

being mean to them. That sucks even if

50:08

you're Taylor Swift, but her Swifties will even

50:10

defend her against completely valid,

50:13

intelligently stated criticism. Remember

50:15

when the whole private jet thing happened? If you didn't know,

50:18

there is this website that tracks

50:20

most celebrities' private jet usage

50:23

and how much CO2 they're putting out into

50:25

the world. It's pretty much just highlighting how

50:27

the richest people in the world are at fault

50:30

for global warming and us as individuals

50:33

using a shitty fucking paper straw.

50:35

And drinking paper is not going to

50:38

help the world, but these billionaires taking

50:41

massive steps is Taylor Swift

50:43

got called out for taking four,

50:46

five minute jet rides. So

50:49

starting a plane and taking a five

50:51

minute private jet ride from one

50:53

town to another is horrible

50:55

for the environment and her Swifties still

50:57

defended her. I remember her team

51:00

came out and defended that she was like lending her

51:02

jet out to other people so she wasn't taking all

51:04

of those rides. I mean, it's still her jet.

51:07

While we're at rich people letting each other borrow

51:09

each other's plane, regular people, we

51:11

borrow each other's clothes, but can you imagine

51:13

being so powerful and rich that every

51:15

time you lent a belonging to a friend, carbon

51:17

dioxide rained from the sky and you

51:20

just didn't notice or didn't care?

51:22

I did think it was interesting how the private jet

51:24

hullabaloo did seem to

51:27

afford certain Swifties this permission

51:29

structure to come out and admit that she's kind of a problematic

51:31

fave. Some people sent me a few TikToks

51:34

of Swifties like kind of roasting her

51:36

a little bit. It's like, finally, we are allowed

51:39

to critique her a teeny tiny little bit.

51:41

I'm researching irrationality a bunch

51:43

for the book that I'm currently writing. And I learned

51:45

that when a celebrity commits any kind

51:47

of infraction, their fiercest loyalists

51:50

will be flooded with cognitive

51:52

dissonance that feels so uncomfortable

51:54

that they immediately get defensive

51:57

and the worst the infraction is the worst

51:59

their cognitive dissonance will be and the more defensive

52:01

and zealous their stance will get in order to

52:03

psychologically overcome that. That makes sense

52:05

to me. The only example I can think on a personal

52:08

level is, you know, the classic scene

52:10

where like new family moves to a new town

52:12

and then one of the siblings gets bullied

52:15

at school and then the sibling is like, oh,

52:18

hell no, I can bully my little

52:20

brother, but you can't. It's

52:22

like I'm allowed to critique this person because

52:24

I'm a part of their family, but you

52:27

get your hands off my sibling. Totally,

52:29

and it's like we said before, this Stan in the Elle.com

52:32

article said she has a motherly instinct

52:34

toward Taylor Swift, but it's like you are not a part of that girl's

52:37

family and you are not her mother. The

52:39

meaning that it holds to Taylor

52:41

Swift versus the meaning that it holds to the

52:43

person defending her to the

52:45

death are way different. Like, they're

52:48

supposed to be like, oh, that's nice. Someone

52:50

defended me. And this girl will have spent

52:52

weeks, days commenting, chatting

52:54

with a person that has

52:57

nothing to do with them on a personal level. That

52:59

is such a good point. It's a culty red flag

53:01

to become separated and isolated

53:04

from your loved ones and your family because you're dedicating

53:06

so much time to this group. And

53:09

some of the cultiest things that Swifties do is

53:11

that they'll track her every movement, including

53:14

physical movements. In addition

53:16

to business and music moves, a woman

53:18

running one of the biggest fan pages told

53:21

the Guardian that she knew where Taylor

53:23

Swift was 80% of the time. This

53:26

is not healthy for the person

53:28

running the fan page and for Taylor Swift. She

53:30

stated many times that she no

53:32

longer says what city she's living

53:35

in because it's really dangerous for her, for

53:37

fans to know that. People have like broken into her

53:39

home. And that's the scary part is that the fandom

53:41

is now, you know, snowballed

53:44

into its own monster. Absolutely

53:46

almost uncontrollable. Taylor interacts

53:49

with her fans through like secret codes and specialized

53:51

language, but they sometimes take

53:54

it way too far. Some

53:56

parts of the Swiftie fandom are so disconnected

53:58

from reality that they'll project. made

54:00

up ideas onto her words and actions, much

54:03

in the same way, though not with the same consequences,

54:05

that QAn honors project

54:07

shit onto Trump. Like they'll overanalyze

54:10

the color of a sweater that she wore

54:12

in one Instagram post and

54:14

interpret that to mean that she's secretly

54:17

gay. It just goes to show that

54:19

the fandom really

54:21

has spiraled way far away from

54:23

her. People have created entire careers

54:26

out of their obsession. There's this woman named Lauren

54:28

Lipman. She made a YouTube video decoding

54:30

the hidden messages in the Look What You Made Me Do music

54:32

video. And subsequently, she turned that

54:35

into a whole career. And

54:37

there are secret codes that the fandom

54:40

has invented themselves in order to

54:42

feel both bonded together and superior to

54:44

everyone who doesn't understand the lingo.

54:47

The snake emoji is an important symbol

54:49

for the fan base. They use it both to show support

54:51

for Taylor and to troll outsiders,

54:53

like snake emoji, snake emoji, snake emoji, snake emoji.

54:55

Yeah, there was a time when Kanye tweeted a picture

54:58

of a snake. Everyone was like, oh, he's

55:00

calling Taylor Swift out. And she does

55:02

release Easter eggs, hidden clues

55:05

in her post. So it's kind of this touch 22

55:07

of you have all the power you have

55:10

because of

55:10

these inconveniences that you live through. Even

55:13

within the Swifties, there's this in group

55:15

and out group. There are some fans

55:17

that are invited to secret listening sessions.

55:20

And those that are not involved get super

55:22

mad. And I mean, I don't even know how that

55:24

happens. It's almost like a secret society. How do

55:26

you get invited to those listening sessions? It's

55:29

funny that you ask that because we looked into it

55:31

and there are these unspoken rules

55:33

for ascending to the highest level

55:35

of Swifties. In order to be recognized

55:38

by her team, you have to tag

55:40

at TaylorNation13 and at TreePain, that's

55:43

her publicist, on all of your social media

55:45

posts. And then and only then will you have the

55:48

chance to earn special Swiftie privileges

55:50

like DMs from her team and Christmas

55:53

presents and invites to these private listening

55:55

sessions called her secret sessions. So there

55:57

are these sort of unspoken

55:58

codes. It reminds me of.

55:59

when influencers are like, comment on

56:02

this post and tag three friends and I'll give you a free

56:04

Tesla. I've done that. I've sent it to you. I'm

56:06

like, give me that Tesla. We love exclusivity,

56:09

especially as Americans. Yeah. And I also

56:11

think we love free things as well.

56:13

So like if her team is offering to

56:16

send you Christmas presents, it's like, why not?

56:18

Also, what's the cost of following an account

56:20

and commenting on things when you remember

56:23

to? Well, that's how it starts. And then slowly

56:25

you get inducted more and more and more

56:27

into the forums and the groups and the culture

56:30

and lo and behold now two years later,

56:32

you've tripped and fallen down a rabbit hole into

56:34

absolute fanatical conspiracy theory,

56:36

Swifty culture. I mean, speaking of conspiracy

56:39

theories, we mentioned this a little bit about

56:42

the Galers and the Kailers, but

56:44

I do think that the fact that there are

56:46

some of her fans that go as far

56:49

as genuinely thinking that Taylor

56:51

Swift has been bisexual this whole time

56:54

and has been gay and has been

56:56

hiding it just goes to show

56:58

how like almost, and I'm sorry

57:00

to use this word, but like delusional people

57:03

can get that they remove

57:05

themselves from reality. Like this woman

57:07

is in a serious relationship with an actor

57:10

or male. Well, it's not like none of their business. What I

57:12

really want to know is what is motivating these followers

57:14

to want her so badly to be gay?

57:16

That's a really good question. I don't know. Is

57:19

it because we need more

57:21

super, super mainstream queer icons? I mean,

57:23

it would be a win for the queer community if someone

57:25

is famous in mainstream as Taylor Swift, we're gay.

57:28

We're in this weird transition with

57:30

queerness where it has become mainstream.

57:32

So it's important for mainstream

57:35

popular figures to come out because it's still

57:38

a win for the queer community, but sexuality

57:41

and your sex life should still be private.

57:43

I know I also don't think people are required

57:46

to come out. So there are a lot of

57:48

artists nowadays that are like no comment.

57:51

Like I'm not going to come out because

57:53

it's my personal life. Whether

57:55

you're talking about a group as destructive and

57:57

violent as QAnon or as as

58:00

Taylor Swift, when you're making

58:02

up, to use your word, delusional conspiracy

58:05

theories, it all goes back to our intense

58:07

desire during

58:09

times of sociopolitical turbulence to want

58:11

someone to represent us and lead us into a better future.

58:14

I do believe that many, many Swifties have

58:16

a sense of humor about it all. I think her sense of

58:18

humor has grown a bit, but

58:21

that doesn't reflect all of her fans. I

58:23

think a lot of her fans have a great sense of humor. I

58:25

made a little Taylor Swift meme and posted

58:27

it on my Instagram a while ago where it said, cults in

58:29

the movies, cults in real life. And in the cults in

58:31

the movies section, I posted a screen grab from Midsommar

58:33

and the cults in real life section, I posted a photo of one

58:35

of her secret sessions. And then in the caption,

58:37

I was like, where am I Swifties? What's the cultiest

58:40

thing you've ever done in service of your queen? And

58:42

so many people were like, delighted

58:44

to roast themselves as cult

58:47

followers. People are proud of the wars

58:49

that they've gone through. It's like a vet coming

58:51

back from war and being like, I have a purple

58:53

heart. Thank you.

58:54

This is hyperbole. This is hyperbole. So

58:57

up next, we're gonna talk to author, director

58:59

and writer Jill Gutowitz. She

59:02

is a huge fan of Taylor Swift herself,

59:04

but has written many articles on her and

59:06

inevitably, you know, gotten into some

59:09

trouble for it. Some Swifty Tiff, so

59:11

to speak. She is the author of the book,

59:13

Girls Can Kiss Now. She writes about Taylor Swift

59:16

in that book and is the director

59:18

of the short film, The Ladies. Here's Jill. Hi,

59:20

my name is Anna Muffie.

59:24

I'm from Atlanta, Georgia and certified Swifty, I've

59:27

actually seen Taylor and concert nine times.

59:29

And she's been called a queen.

59:31

I think it's his day that Taylor Swift

59:34

is Swifties,

59:34

particularly recently, has

59:37

been the way that private ethernet

59:39

has been facing. And so, not only Taylor Swift,

59:42

but also the way that she's been doing

59:45

it. And so, she's been a queen.

59:48

And she's been in not only Taylor Swift, but

59:51

the lives of all other celebrities that she's

59:53

friends with.

59:59

societies through this. I

1:00:02

have made most of my friends everyone

1:00:04

around me is 50s so I'm very happy

1:00:07

to be part of that and I've become

1:00:09

a committee member to encourage

1:00:11

a whole other group of people to make

1:00:14

friends

1:00:14

exclusively with changes of funds.

1:00:16

This is Kendall calling from Chicago,

1:00:18

Illinois the way that they think

1:00:20

that she is above critique

1:00:22

for whatever reason. How anyone who

1:00:25

calls her out is immediately

1:00:28

dismissed and called a misogynist.

1:00:31

Like you can not

1:00:32

like Taylor Swift, it's okay.

1:00:41

Jill, to start, could

1:00:43

you introduce yourself shortly?

1:00:45

I'm Jill Gudwitz. I'm an

1:00:47

author allegedly. I wrote

1:00:50

a book called Girls Can Kiss Now. It's a book of

1:00:52

personal essays that are about my

1:00:54

own life as it relates to pop culture.

1:00:57

Including Taylor Swift. Including, but

1:00:59

not limited to. But if I had it my

1:01:01

way probably would have been a book about Taylor Swift,

1:01:03

yes. That's

1:01:06

amazing. Do you consider yourself in the cult

1:01:09

of Taylor Swift? I honestly feel like it was kind of a slow

1:01:11

burn which I think is maybe how cults

1:01:13

work. 1989 is really the album

1:01:15

where I, even though I like liked all the other

1:01:17

ones, where I started to like

1:01:19

get kind of obsessed and it was because I was going to

1:01:21

break up emotional times. Of course

1:01:23

that's when it happens. Feeling

1:01:25

very vulnerable. After that

1:01:27

I was completely all in and

1:01:30

needed to participate in getting

1:01:32

the merch and talking about it every second on

1:01:34

the live way. That's so true.

1:01:36

Like once you get merch, you're like in.

1:01:39

Once you get the merch by purchasing

1:01:41

it online, that's when you're

1:01:43

really in. Because if you buy like a shirt

1:01:45

at a concert you go to, that's just part

1:01:48

of the energy of the event.

1:01:49

But once you like go to www.cultoftaylorswift.com,

1:01:54

I want a phone case. I was so

1:01:56

swept up by the 1989 of it all that I like went. to

1:02:00

Target and bought this hard CD.

1:02:03

It was like I was so involved that I needed

1:02:05

to do it in person. It was too impersonal

1:02:07

to just get a package delivered. All

1:02:10

my 1989 memories are listening

1:02:12

to CD in my car. It was already

1:02:14

kind of a different time in the

1:02:16

way I was listening and consuming and buying

1:02:18

the merch. Yeah, that is much more intimate.

1:02:21

A CD in a car. How old are

1:02:23

you, Jill? Just for context, what years

1:02:25

are we trafficking in? What ages are we trafficking

1:02:28

in? I'm actually 13. I'm

1:02:31

your like Taylor, you froze at the time when

1:02:33

like he became human. No,

1:02:36

I'm 30. Taylor Swift's birthday is the day before

1:02:39

mine, but she is two years older than me.

1:02:41

That's the perfect age of a celebrity

1:02:43

to worship because she's just like just ahead.

1:02:46

Yeah, it's always been like a little aspirational.

1:02:49

Obviously, Taylor Swift has one of the most

1:02:52

passionate fandoms out there. How

1:02:54

would you describe the typical Taylor

1:02:56

Swift cult member? What are they like?

1:02:59

Why do you think they worship Taylor? Scary,

1:03:01

I would describe them as scary. Now

1:03:03

there's like different generations of them even,

1:03:06

but when I think of a Taylor Swift fan, like my mind

1:03:08

goes to my age, like a millennial

1:03:10

who like went to the Speak Now concert and

1:03:12

is entering their cringe era. There's so

1:03:14

many factions of Swifties and

1:03:17

so many of them are now youths

1:03:19

that are online and just have like a Taylor

1:03:21

Swift avatar and are like basically

1:03:23

identity lists online. Personality-wise,

1:03:26

I think like Swifties skew obsessive

1:03:28

in general.

1:03:30

What do you think is like the cultiest aspect

1:03:32

of Taylor Swift, like for better or for worse?

1:03:35

Speaking to my own experience, I

1:03:37

get offended and like genuinely defensive

1:03:40

when people criticize her because

1:03:42

she has meant a lot to me at

1:03:45

so many different times in my life. I

1:03:47

do have a deeply parasocial relationship

1:03:50

with Taylor Swift and I do feel

1:03:52

like she's so nice to me. I

1:03:54

love, she's been so kind to me. Like we

1:03:56

have not met. Actually I did meet her one time.

1:03:59

Oh, I love you.

1:03:59

I wanna hear that, but it's so funny that you say

1:04:02

that because I have gone down rabbit

1:04:04

holes on YouTube marathoning

1:04:06

videos of Swifties reacting to

1:04:08

her album drops. It's truly like watching

1:04:11

a Pentecostal speak in tongues. I cannot

1:04:13

look away, it is madness. And they

1:04:15

say things like, she didn't have

1:04:18

to do this for us, but she did. Like,

1:04:21

she is so kind. She is like our

1:04:23

mother, she is our goddess. She could just

1:04:25

be at home relaxing and she gave this

1:04:28

to us. She doesn't know you.

1:04:29

Yeah. Tell us

1:04:32

about the time you met her. My friend

1:04:34

brought me backstage to meet her

1:04:36

at the Reputation Tour, living in LA

1:04:38

and working in media and whatever. I've met so

1:04:41

many celebrities and I would say the majority

1:04:43

of them are like not super warm or

1:04:45

friendly. We were like the last people to talk

1:04:47

to her before she had to be rushed away to go on

1:04:50

stage. And so it was like, she spent

1:04:52

this last moment with us,

1:04:54

I would say, I don't know, five minutes

1:04:57

of a conversation. And I felt like even

1:04:59

though I had no place being there, I was clearly just

1:05:01

a fan. And she was talking to my friend about work

1:05:03

things and the reason why he was there and

1:05:05

whatever. She made such a point

1:05:08

to articulate at me and look

1:05:10

at me while she was talking as much as when

1:05:12

she was talking to him. So that I felt involved

1:05:15

in the like small three person conversation,

1:05:18

which I think is just like such a small but human

1:05:20

thing. And it was just such like a kind

1:05:22

thing to do for a person who like

1:05:24

clearly has no place being there and obviously

1:05:27

feels weird. To just like make them feel included,

1:05:29

even though you don't have to. That's like charisma

1:05:31

that like, what is she getting out of that like one

1:05:34

particular moment, like

1:05:35

with one fan right before she goes

1:05:37

on stage? I do think that this

1:05:40

like really kind, warm,

1:05:42

I'm gonna stare directly into your eyes and

1:05:44

make you feel like this is the best day of your life. I

1:05:47

do feel like that is part of her curated

1:05:49

persona though. Like I think, you know, the way

1:05:51

that you get a reputation and maintain a reputation

1:05:53

is if you're consistent. Here, I'm gonna be defensive again. My

1:05:56

feeling is like, I'm not saying it's not

1:05:58

curated. In fact, I'm...

1:05:59

sure that it is and if it is a form

1:06:02

of manipulation. The thing is that I don't

1:06:04

care because doing it made me feel

1:06:08

so much more comfortable being

1:06:10

there. So it's like even if it is not

1:06:12

done with like pure intentions, I'm

1:06:14

still like, thank you for doing that. Jill,

1:06:17

have you ever had any scary or

1:06:19

culty altercations with other Swifties or

1:06:22

have observed them? I say this in my book

1:06:24

that I have an experience where the FBI knocked

1:06:26

on my door one time because of something I tweeted

1:06:28

and still after

1:06:31

that I felt more scared

1:06:33

when the Swifties came for me because

1:06:36

the FBI thing got cleared as they say

1:06:39

and I never heard about it again. The Swiftie

1:06:41

thing still follows me around. What

1:06:43

did you do? During her last few

1:06:46

album releases I was like

1:06:48

covering them doing the like uncovering

1:06:50

Easter eggs and clues moment for

1:06:53

Vulture and obviously being

1:06:55

gay myself, like what I wanted

1:06:57

to investigate was the gay stuff

1:07:00

whether it was true or not. You started

1:07:02

a revolution with that. Yeah and okay

1:07:04

no your pieces for Vulture covering

1:07:07

those albums were so funny. I'm not

1:07:09

even a Swiftie and I voraciously

1:07:11

consumed them because they were fucking hilarious. Thank you.

1:07:14

People got really mad that I called

1:07:16

her boyfriend names that

1:07:18

were I think funny. He

1:07:21

is like oat milk boy.

1:07:23

It's just like so not mean. There

1:07:25

are such worse things you can call a person

1:07:27

than just saying they're bland. It was just like one

1:07:30

of those like pile-on stand moments where

1:07:32

people went really crazy and

1:07:35

it still followed me around. Do you think that like Taylor

1:07:38

Swift endorses both kinds of like

1:07:40

actions from her Swifties or like she knows

1:07:42

she has like an army at her disposal

1:07:45

that she can like use? It's not that she like ever

1:07:47

would endorse it and I think if something really

1:07:49

sinister happened she would of course speak out and

1:07:51

be like you guys this is crazy. But

1:07:55

I think that like she definitely knows

1:07:57

that she has this army.

1:08:00

Obviously, she knows she has this cultish

1:08:04

leader status. How do

1:08:06

you think she exploits that status? I am

1:08:08

not sure because I do think that she could

1:08:10

push me pretty far morally.

1:08:14

I don't think that she wields it

1:08:16

for evil or would. I think that

1:08:18

she is good. And I also

1:08:21

like she's at a level now that she is so

1:08:23

big that when you ask like, what

1:08:25

can she do with this? I'm kind of like, I

1:08:28

don't know where she goes from here.

1:08:30

You know, it's like she already has. She

1:08:32

has us so hard to the point where she's

1:08:35

re-releasing music of the same

1:08:37

songs and we're like thank you goddess. What

1:08:39

are some culty aspects of Swifties that

1:08:42

someone on the outside of the cult

1:08:44

might not even know about some like really fringy

1:08:47

random shit? So many Swifties have all

1:08:50

of these like unreleased Taylor Swift tracks

1:08:52

that are like deep buried on YouTube

1:08:55

or like truly like files

1:08:57

that they've saved to their computers that I feel

1:08:59

like like those kinds of like inner fan

1:09:01

secrets or stuff like that. Taylor

1:09:03

Swift has become like a polarizing figure

1:09:06

over the last, you know, decade. And

1:09:09

a lot of people consider it uncool

1:09:11

to like her because she is so like mainstream

1:09:14

and like chuggy.

1:09:17

I don't know. Are we are we calling her chuggy now? I

1:09:19

don't know. I think that like she resonates

1:09:22

with so many people and

1:09:24

a lot of people really like

1:09:26

her but would not consider

1:09:29

themselves

1:09:30

a Swiftie. Basically, there's just because of

1:09:32

the reputation.

1:09:35

Even in her own music, she plays

1:09:37

into like her narrative and like

1:09:39

her role as a leader. Like she's

1:09:41

all in on that shit. Do you think there are like Taylor

1:09:43

Swift support groups that meet in person or

1:09:46

people who are such deep Taylor Swift fans that they

1:09:48

make friends with other Taylor Swift fans and maybe they've

1:09:50

started a comic. I think if there was a commune,

1:09:52

we would know because they would talk

1:09:55

about it online

1:09:55

for sure. Like that I'm

1:09:58

sure that was like Swifties. really

1:10:00

intense Swifties like I think we do like attention.

1:10:03

So I think if there was a commune in the woods we

1:10:05

would know and I would have been. On a smaller

1:10:07

level I feel like Swifties are constantly online

1:10:10

talking about how like I met some of my

1:10:12

closest friends online through the Swiftie fandom

1:10:14

even though we've never met in real life which like I have

1:10:17

mixed feelings about go outside but also

1:10:19

like I believe you because I have met friends online

1:10:22

on like a more like truly interpersonal level.

1:10:24

Some of my closest friends I feel like we have

1:10:27

bonded because of our mutual love

1:10:29

for her forming the spark of a connection and

1:10:31

then finding out this person also loves Taylor Swift

1:10:34

and then you like unpack all of that together

1:10:36

and you talk about your favorite album and what tours

1:10:39

have you been to blah blah and like my friend Jared

1:10:41

like we have like truly bonded over

1:10:43

our mutual appreciation of Taylor Swift

1:10:45

and it had like brought us closer. That's like

1:10:47

the fun sweet positive part

1:10:50

of being in a cult it's like here is

1:10:52

some doctrine for us to bond

1:10:54

over it's like for some people it's the Bible and

1:10:56

for some

1:10:57

people it's like some freaky text that a man

1:10:59

in a beard wrote and for some people it's

1:11:01

Taylor Swift's discography and you

1:11:03

know that's yeah and beautiful lyrics.

1:11:08

What do you think it says about our culture in general right

1:11:10

now that worshiping Taylor Swift has come

1:11:12

to mean so much more to people than just being

1:11:14

a fan of a pop star? Being a fan of Taylor

1:11:17

Swift has become its own identity there

1:11:19

is an identity and community in saying

1:11:21

I'm a Swiftie for me I think

1:11:23

it is net positive that so many people

1:11:25

in our culture have raised

1:11:27

her up to be like one of our greatest voices

1:11:29

of this generation no matter what you

1:11:31

think about her whether she is manipulative

1:11:34

or you know sinister

1:11:37

or just like a person writing about her feeling

1:11:40

I think she's like net positive and has had

1:11:42

like a net positive effect on our culture.

1:11:44

So now we're gonna play a little game we always

1:11:47

play a game with our guest on

1:11:49

Sounds Like a Cult. This game is a Sounds

1:11:51

Like a Cult standby it's Cultie Quotes

1:11:54

so we're gonna read you a list of quotes and

1:11:56

you're gonna have to

1:11:57

guess whether the quote was said by Taylor

1:11:59

Swift or a notorious cult leader

1:12:01

from history. Quote number one, it's

1:12:03

all the media's fault.

1:12:04

Don't believe them. I would say a cult leader. Yes,

1:12:08

that's Jim Jones. I was like Taylor Swift would

1:12:10

never speak that way. I

1:12:15

am an overachiever and I want to

1:12:17

be known for the good things in my life. I think that

1:12:19

was Taylor Swift. You're correct.

1:12:22

You're like that was Taylor Swift on November

1:12:25

1st like at 3pm. No but like was

1:12:27

that from the Miss Americana documentary because I

1:12:29

think it was. The next quote, love

1:12:32

without trust is a river without

1:12:34

water. I'm taking this game too seriously like now

1:12:37

that I'm on a streak like I'm like if I break this I'll die.

1:12:39

I don't think that was her then. Like a true

1:12:41

Swiftie. You're right. The leader of

1:12:43

the happy healthy holy organization

1:12:46

Yogi Budget. Wow I'm really proud

1:12:48

of

1:12:48

myself right now.

1:12:50

You're on a streak.

1:12:52

Really hope we get you with these last couple ones. The

1:12:54

only thing I can't control is the

1:12:56

spin of the press and so if I know

1:12:58

I can't control that I have to let it go.

1:13:01

Last

1:13:03

quote,

1:13:04

it's always good to be underestimated. Whoa. I

1:13:07

want to say Taylor Swift though.

1:13:14

Yeah and you're gonna die.

1:13:16

It's Donald Trump. Yeah. How could

1:13:20

you do me like that Amanda? I

1:13:23

could see that like completely

1:13:25

opening like her reputation tour.

1:13:28

Her being like

1:13:29

it's always good to be underestimated.

1:13:32

This means the

1:13:34

light to the sky. Jill thank

1:13:36

you so much for being on the pod

1:13:38

and for putting yourself in this vulnerable position.

1:13:41

Thank you so much. This has been so fun

1:13:43

and yeah I hope I don't get trolled further.

1:13:46

If anyone gets trolled from this it'll probably be us

1:13:48

and we hope you

1:13:50

don't but if you have to troll

1:13:52

someone don't troll Jill. She's been through so much.

1:13:54

If listeners want to keep up

1:13:56

with you and your Taylor Swift coverage and

1:13:59

other things.

1:13:59

Where could they find you? I am on

1:14:02

Instagram as my name, Jill Guttowitz,

1:14:05

and Twitter, Jillboard, spelled like

1:14:07

Billboard, which was a choice I made

1:14:09

in college, now I'm verified and I can't change

1:14:11

it. Or you can buy my

1:14:13

book and read about some real detailers

1:14:15

of thoughts.

1:14:25

So, Isa, out of the three

1:14:27

cult categories, live your life. Watch

1:14:31

your back.

1:14:32

And get the fuck out.

1:14:35

What do you think about the cult of Taylor Swift? You're

1:14:37

not gonna like it. I think the cult of Taylor

1:14:39

Swift is a live your life. I

1:14:41

think so too. Really? Yeah. Oh

1:14:44

my gosh. It's

1:14:45

a live your life in the way that we,

1:14:46

shock of the century, thought Disney adults

1:14:48

were a live your life. Yes, exactly. Because

1:14:51

even in the worst case scenarios of her loyal followers,

1:14:53

they're not like actually sending

1:14:56

nukes on her behalf. You know what I mean? Nobody's

1:14:58

gotten like truly hurt. And the person who

1:15:01

could get the most hurt is Taylor Swift

1:15:03

herself. At that point, she's the one kind of pushing

1:15:05

away. When we're evaluating the verdict,

1:15:07

it is important to look at the worst case scenario.

1:15:10

And even though there's been a little bit

1:15:12

of psychological turmoil as a result

1:15:14

of the Swifty Phantom, and it can really take

1:15:16

over your life, and they do sort of

1:15:18

have zero questioning of her, and there is this

1:15:20

us versus them mentality. At

1:15:23

the end of the day, mistakes are pretty low. Yeah.

1:15:26

It's something that people are enjoying in

1:15:28

a way that isn't destroying their lives.

1:15:31

I mean, think of all the cults that people can join

1:15:33

in 2022. Yes, there's so many, and that's

1:15:35

why I think it's important to zoom out and look at it on

1:15:38

a comparative structure. Yeah. Like

1:15:40

you always say we grade on a curve. So

1:15:42

I think on our curve,

1:15:44

Taylor Swift really is a live your life. If

1:15:46

you want more evidence about what it means

1:15:49

to be a live your life versus watch your back versus get

1:15:51

the fuck out, go back and marathon

1:15:53

our entire sounds like a cult

1:15:55

back catalog.