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dot com slash shift. Make

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the shift. Make a difference. My

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name is Serena, and I'm calling from Nashville.

0:31

And the courteous thing about working in restaurants

0:34

is how normalized and encouraged it is to

0:36

work from open to close nearly every

0:38

day of the week. whether you're sick or have a family

0:40

or it's a holiday, it's expected for you

0:42

to be there. Hi. I'm Diana from Wilmington.

0:44

The singular most cultish thing in my opinion

0:47

is people specialty cooks and chefs always

0:49

saying we do it to make people happy. It's

0:52

usually not the case. They do it to stroke their

0:54

own egos and all the other cultish things that

0:56

happen stem from people needing that. There

0:58

is someone they're emulating and they endure

1:00

used to do so and only socialize with other

1:02

from people and they do not know how to exist

1:04

in the outside world, and they become blind

1:07

to the problematic and toxic behavior that

1:09

is rife in that industry. There's always this

1:11

weird undercurrent of relationship,

1:13

whether you're, like, pleasing your manager or

1:16

whether your manager doesn't like you. It, like,

1:18

actually, has a really big impact on what

1:20

it's like to work there. This

1:22

is sounds like a cult, a show about the

1:24

modern day cults, we all follow. I'm

1:26

Isamadina and I'm McMedian. And I'm

1:28

Amanda Montel, author of The Book cultish the

1:30

language of fanaticism. Every week

1:32

on our show, we discuss a different group or

1:35

guru that puts the cult in culture

1:37

from the troubled teen industry to the Kardashians.

1:39

To try and answer the big question, this

1:41

group sounds like a but is it

1:43

really? To join our cult

1:45

and see culty memes and behind the scenes,

1:48

picks. Follow us on Instagram at sounds

1:50

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1:52

isamedina ISAMEDINAA

1:55

where you can find all the information

1:57

on where to see me do live stand up comedy.

1:59

I'm going to be performing in San Francisco

2:02

on Thursday, October twentieth. gonna

2:04

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2:06

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2:08

November twenty sixth baby.

2:10

So go to my in program to see information

2:13

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2:15

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2:17

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2:19

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2:21

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2:25

Also, Amanda here, I want to let you

2:27

know that I have some really fun culty

2:29

events coming up for my book, cultish.

2:31

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2:33

in October twenty twenty two. I'm gonna

2:35

be in Salt Lake city in November,

2:37

I'm gonna be in LA. So

2:39

you can find the info for that at my website

2:42

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2:44

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2:46

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2:50

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4:21

Today, we are covering the cult

4:24

of kitchen culture. And

4:26

we're not talking about your mother's

4:28

kitchen, not your grandmother's kitchen,

4:30

or your father's Kitchen. Yes. Oh, your

4:32

grandpa's kitchen. You're absolutely right.

4:34

That not your mother's Acxiom,

4:36

a little sexist. It isn't.

4:38

I I don't know if we're gonna touch on this later,

4:40

but I do find it's so insane that, like,

4:42

kitchen culture is predominantly male. They know.

4:44

One people are always telling women to go back in

4:46

the kitchen. Oh, okay. In the

4:48

one place, we can do it professionally. You

4:50

don't accept us. Yes. Because money and

4:52

glory comes with cooking professionally and

4:54

women are supposed to suffer in

4:56

labor and silence. Anyway, if you couldn't

4:58

guess, we're talking about the

5:00

culture of restaurant kitchens,

5:03

specifically fine dining kitchens.

5:05

One of the main things that kitchen

5:07

culture and colts have in common

5:09

from my perspective is that cults

5:11

often offer this sort of family and community

5:14

for those who feel unwelcome in mainstream

5:16

society. They often target people who are

5:18

seeking a sense of belonging, but they're

5:20

also very exclusive and have these

5:22

barriers to entry and exit that make

5:24

participants feel like there's some part of

5:26

an exalted class. And

5:28

there's a lot of that going on

5:30

with the people who join the

5:32

cult of restaurant kitchen. Kitchen

5:35

culture, specifically the kind we're gonna be talking

5:37

about today, which is the culture at fine dining

5:39

restaurants or establishments, breaks down in

5:41

bonds people in ways that are so similar

5:43

to the way that cult to do it.

5:45

And a lot of people who end up working in

5:47

restaurants are similar to the sorts of misfits that

5:49

kind of wind up in cults. Getting a

5:51

restaurant job is very much a thing you

5:53

can do when you are between

5:55

gigs or when you are looking for

5:57

your next gig or when you don't have a fucking

5:59

master's degree. Yeah. And when I

6:01

think of chefs even who work in some of

6:03

the fanciest restaurants. I picture

6:05

these sort of biker dudes, people

6:07

with a ton of tattoos and like

6:09

scars on their face. I guess they are working

6:11

with knives. Yeah. I always just, I mean,

6:13

immediately jumped to Anthony Bourdain

6:15

and look alike -- Yeah. -- like these people who

6:17

had either substance abuse issues

6:19

or a hard time growing up. How do

6:21

you say that? A difficult childhood. It's

6:24

one of the few industries where you really

6:26

can still work your way up -- Mhmm.

6:28

-- from the bottom. Like, you can start as

6:30

a hostess and then become a server and

6:32

then become a manager or can start as

6:34

a dishwasher and then move your way up,

6:36

and you don't see that a lot in other

6:38

industries these days. It's true, but

6:41

to that point, there is this

6:43

very specific unquestioned

6:46

hierarchical structure in kitchens.

6:48

That reminds me of the military in a lot of

6:50

ways and as it turns out,

6:52

was sort of derived from military

6:54

hierarchies. I don't think you ever asked you this, have you ever

6:56

worked in a kitchen? Did you ever worked in a restaurant? the

6:58

closest I've ever gotten to working at a restaurant

7:00

is I worked at a Folio

7:02

shop in high school. Oh, I see

7:04

that. Folio. I love Froyo.

7:06

I worked at it for, like, a year and a half. And

7:08

after that, I didn't have Froyo for, like, three years.

7:10

But On that on my Froyo game. I

7:13

mean, if my favorite Froyo brand

7:15

sponsored the podcast. That's when I really feel

7:17

like we will have made it. That would be

7:19

amazing. Have you sent Twroyo over the mail? I

7:21

don't know. Or probably just to get card.

7:23

Then I also worked at the concession

7:25

stand at the pool. These are such girl next

7:27

door jobs. That's where my love for hot

7:29

dogs. comes from. I love hot

7:31

dogs. That's actually something that you should

7:33

know about me. I think there's such

7:35

an easy snack. You can microwave them. You

7:37

can boil them. You can grill them. What's

7:40

your favorite hotdog topping? because I know mine.

7:42

People think it's weird, but I do put mayo

7:44

on my hotdog. I put mayo, mister

7:46

ketchup, and onions. and

7:49

crumbled up chips. It's

7:51

so good. Oh my god.

7:53

That's how you do it in Colombia. Okay. I love

7:55

hot dogs. Alright. Last thing on hot dogs. is

7:57

that I love a baseball game

7:59

hotdog,

7:59

you know,

8:00

like wrapped in tin foil. Well, it's cultural.

8:02

We'll get into this analysis later,

8:05

but One of the reasons why I think kitchen

8:07

culture is so intense is because

8:09

food is so fraught. Like, food

8:11

represents so much to us. It's

8:13

not just sustenance for your

8:15

body. It's your culture. It's your identity. Yeah. Certainly

8:17

in restaurant culture. It's your livelihood.

8:19

It's your legacy. As we all

8:21

know and have seen in rat Tui.

8:23

Food is that moment where the critic in the

8:25

movie puts the ratatouille in his

8:27

mouth. And it's such it,

8:29

like, suctions him into his childhood

8:31

and reminds him of that moment. And that's

8:33

what food does. Have you ever worked in a restaurant,

8:36

Amanda? Yeah. Yeah. I worked in restaurants. My

8:38

favorite job in high school was I

8:40

was the front of house

8:42

hostess at Bertucci's. Did they have

8:44

that where you grew up? Like, a family Italian

8:46

restaurant. It's in, like, Maryland and New

8:48

Jersey and stuff. I could see that though because

8:50

I feel like also a lot of people who wanna

8:52

pursue the arts have it in their mind that

8:54

at some point they will have to work out. In

8:56

a restaurant, So you're you're you are

8:58

almost, like, in character of, like, I need to

9:00

work at a restaurant. I was I was, like, cost

9:02

playing starving artists. Yeah. Yeah. But I

9:04

was not starving because when you worked

9:06

there, you got unlimited free

9:08

rolls. Oh my god. That sounds

9:10

amazing. The rolls were amazing. Actually,

9:12

I wanted to work at a restaurant in high school because

9:14

a lot of my friends did. They

9:16

worked at something grill, you know,

9:18

like summer vibes. My dad and

9:20

my mom, they wouldn't let me work at

9:23

restaurant because they were, like, we didn't move to this

9:25

country for me to work at a restaurant. They were,

9:27

like, focus on your homework and

9:29

your work and, like, get into a good school.

9:31

When I did the Froyo thing, I only

9:33

was able to do it because I had a stress fracture

9:35

so I couldn't run cross country that

9:37

year. This year, like, extracurricular

9:39

activities were planned out so strategically.

9:41

Yeah. My parents were just like, Keep

9:43

yourself busy, make some money,

9:45

accomplish much. We'll

9:47

wait a minute later. Yeah. Well, my dad

9:50

in college, he worked at

9:52

Wendy's. he hated that job, and so

9:54

he was like, I want to give you a

9:56

life where, like, you don't have to work at all. Oh, that

9:58

makes sense. My dad, as some

10:00

listeners know, spent his teen years in a cult against his

10:02

will, and the job he had there was like

10:04

his one beacon of hope.

10:06

So I definitely came of age with the

10:08

philosophy that Labor can

10:10

be a bright light in the darkness.

10:13

But in college, as a hostess, in

10:15

a very swanky tentious

10:18

head up its rear fucking hotel

10:20

restaurant in New York City. I remember when I applied

10:22

to work there, I'm eighteen years old.

10:24

In the interview, the fucking

10:26

drinking his own cult leader, Kool Aid

10:28

owner of the restaurant asked me, do

10:30

you think you can handle working in a restaurant

10:33

this Cool. My job there was literally just to,

10:35

like, take room service orders and point people

10:37

toward the bathroom. So -- Yeah. -- I don't

10:39

know what his deal was, whether he was trying to

10:41

haze me or not. but that very

10:43

exclusive pretentious,

10:45

fratty, but also badass

10:48

energy is what I think of when

10:50

I think of these fine dining establishment. I

10:52

think the juxtaposition of chefs and other

10:54

kitchen workers at these fine dining establishments

10:56

being so rough around the edges while

10:58

everything in front of house is so steam

11:01

actually seems very salty. Oh,

11:03

definitely, because it's this very

11:05

obvious personification of ends

11:07

justify the means, the implication being that

11:09

this intense sometimes abusive

11:11

aggression backstage is necessary

11:13

to achieve that ultimate perfection.

11:15

There's this sort of

11:17

exclusive secret culture

11:20

happening behind the scenes, yeah,

11:22

that you can only be a part of if you

11:24

join the cult and pay your dues. We always

11:26

wanted to do the cult of kitchen culture because

11:28

people have told us too, and also it's just culty. But then

11:30

the summer, the show, the bear came out. We, as well

11:32

as all of society, became obsessed.

11:34

We devoured it, so to speak. Yeah. We

11:36

were like, yes, Chefs. Yes. Chefs.

11:38

No. Chefs' baby. Everyone's, like, in

11:40

bed asking people to, like, spend time with

11:42

us. No. No. No. No. No.

11:45

Everyone's been doing chef dirty talk this summer,

11:48

or is that just me? So when we thought of

11:50

kitchen culture, we were like, we have to talk to someone

11:52

who's been on the show. but we wanted someone

11:54

who's also worked in kitchen. A

11:56

real chef. So because we can't cover it

11:58

all on our own, later in the episode,

12:00

we're going to be talking to a very

12:02

special guest who not only

12:04

acted in the show the Bear, but is a very

12:06

real and very successful chef who

12:08

consulted on the Bear to make sure that the show is

12:10

representing kitchen culture accurately. The

12:12

bear obviously exclusively popular right now,

12:14

but it isn't the first time that the cult of

12:16

kitchen culture has cropped up in the

12:18

zeitgeist. The book Kitchen confidential was first

12:20

published in two thousand. It came in New York

12:22

Times bestseller, and that was one of the

12:24

first pieces of pop cultural media that

12:26

showed the sort of ugly, guilty,

12:28

underbelly of the culinary world.

12:30

Also, a lot of people don't know this,

12:32

but there was a TV show,

12:34

a sitcom, a scripted show called

12:36

Kitchen Confidential based on

12:38

Anthony Bourdain's book. It only got one because

12:40

it was horrible. But Bradley Cooper

12:43

played the lead. No. Yeah.

12:45

And it was essentially, you

12:47

know, based off of Anthony Bourdain's

12:49

life. This, like, chef who has sex in

12:51

the kitchen. It just never took off

12:53

in the way that his unscripted shows

12:55

did. Well, now we have the bear. Yeah. So

12:57

we're good. It is worth noting that since COVID-nineteen

13:00

pandemic, there has been this sort of new

13:02

reckoning within the culinary industry

13:04

in an attempt to make it less

13:06

destructively culty, and we do talk

13:08

about that with our guests. But

13:10

let's get into some fast facts

13:13

What are some events in recent history that

13:15

have brought the cultiness of kitchen culture

13:17

into the wider cultural night

13:19

days? Oh, baby. We got

13:21

some for you. I mean, one topic

13:23

that people just want us to cover independently is

13:25

the Bonapati test kitchen. Oh

13:27

my god. In the summer of twenty twenty,

13:29

the Bonapati test kitchen got

13:32

exposed for exploiting their chefs of

13:34

color. Also that summer in

13:36

twenty twenty, a super well known

13:38

LA restaurant named squirrel -- Overrated.

13:40

-- overrated and down the street for both

13:42

of us. It got exposed

13:44

for questionable food handling practices

13:46

and mistreating their employees. Mhmm.

13:48

And then in early twenty twenty one, the New

13:50

York Times didn't expose on the toxic

13:53

work environment at Willow's Inn.

13:55

So these are just some recent moments that have inspired

13:57

that new reckoning of

13:59

confronting kitchen culture and whether

14:01

it is toxic or not. But

14:03

of course, A cult

14:05

cannot change its ways overnight,

14:07

and so there are still

14:09

these culty aspects. So let's

14:11

get into our analysis of

14:13

the cult of kitchen

14:14

culture.

14:23

Hi. My name is Savannah. I think the

14:24

coldiest part of what the restaurant

14:26

industry is how little they care

14:28

about their employees. So

14:31

I worked in a

14:33

rolled ice cream cafe that

14:35

a c turned off. It was like

14:37

ninety degrees and having to take

14:39

breaks because we felt like we

14:41

were going to

14:42

toss out one of the cold tea's

14:45

aspects of the service industry

14:47

is the trauma bonding after a

14:49

very, very a tough shift. People will

14:51

feel closer together and more of a

14:53

family. It turns into, like, those are the only

14:55

people that you hang out with or really

14:57

care about I've had multiple jobs where

14:59

my manager tried to act like my

15:01

parent, give me these life advice and how to

15:03

be a better version of myself, even

15:05

though During rashes, I would find them sitting in

15:07

the office or just picking the absolute

15:09

easiest job possible.

15:17

So

15:17

of course, as we always mention, cults

15:20

often have a charismatic leader

15:23

and that's the chef

15:25

in restaurants. They are sort

15:27

of exalted as these

15:29

enlightened geniuses that you're never

15:31

supposed to quest as a New York

15:33

Times piece said everyone else in

15:35

the kitchen from line cooks to servers

15:37

to dishwashers even

15:39

folks eating in the restaurant are

15:41

supposed to support

15:43

that vision at every single

15:45

turn. Yeah. And we see that with Iowa

15:47

Dibry's character Sydney in the bear. He

15:49

works at the restaurant, the beef. she can have the

15:51

opportunity just to work under

15:53

Karmy, this genius chef

15:55

who happens to be working at a low

15:57

budget diner. She essentially has

15:59

to, like, fall to her knees and

16:01

worship him in order to prove

16:03

herself. So it's not just the people

16:05

who work in the kitchen who worship the chef. It's

16:07

also the patrons of the rest the people who eat at the

16:09

restaurant, the diners, you know,

16:11

compliments to the chef. Thank you so much to the chef.

16:13

They don't think of the whole team that is

16:15

behind the meal that they

16:17

just ate. There is this reputation now

16:19

of chefs as visionary

16:22

geniuses. That image of chefs

16:24

rose in large part because the culture that

16:26

Anthony Bourdain portrayed in

16:28

his books, The New York Times

16:30

talked about him upholding a romantic ideal

16:32

of chef ing as the kind of brutal and

16:34

possibly demanding, but ultimately

16:36

meaningful work that exalts misfits and

16:38

draws them together with a sense

16:40

of purpose. It sounds like you're describing a cult.

16:42

I mean, that's exactly what a cult leader

16:44

does. Glammarizing that

16:46

image of the chef who

16:48

works so hard and puts his blood wet

16:50

and tears in all his artistic vision

16:52

into his food. That can

16:54

lead to glamorizing abuse

16:57

going on in the kitchen because it's this ends

16:59

justify the means philosophy of like

17:01

anything that's necessary to execute

17:03

his vision and that cult

17:05

leaderish image of the chef gives

17:08

diners something to talk about. It

17:10

gives them AAA figurehead to

17:12

worship themselves. Yeah. And I think

17:14

it's important to highlight the glorification

17:16

of this toxic culture

17:18

was in the early two thousands, which was

17:20

a time when there weren't like many anti

17:22

bullying campaigns yet. Having to suck it

17:24

up and deal with it was still

17:26

the culture at large, you know. It's like when you're

17:28

an adult, you just have to deal with it.

17:30

Yeah. You have to deal with abuse. Or if your parents hit

17:32

you when you were a kid, like, it just made you stronger.

17:35

That was in the zeitgeist. That's what how

17:37

people spoke. You're so right. It's very

17:39

gen x latch key kid,

17:41

suck it up, raise yourself. literally,

17:43

if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kids.

17:45

Yeah. And now, I think things are

17:48

changing not just because the

17:50

culture around bullying is changing

17:52

and talks a city and people are going to

17:54

therapy and things like that. But I also

17:56

think probably because of

17:58

the push to diversify kitchens

18:00

more. Kitchens used to be like so homogenous,

18:02

a lot of, like, white men.

18:04

And now people who created

18:06

a lot of the meals

18:08

that had been brought to the forefront by white men are now getting in

18:10

the kitchen. minorities and women

18:13

and people of color are now

18:15

getting to be

18:17

leaders in the kitchen. So it's a chicken or the egg

18:19

situation. Were these environments toxic

18:21

because there weren't any women

18:23

or people of color or

18:25

did people of color and women not wanna work in

18:27

these kitchens because they were toxic? Yeah. That

18:30

is a question to be asked in

18:32

so many of these cult, like, industries

18:34

and groups that are helmed by these

18:36

exalted white men from Silicon

18:38

Valley to fine dining. Chefs

18:40

often detail abuse that they

18:42

perpetuated in restaurants and still go on to

18:45

be widely revered. When

18:47

you say that, immediately, I just

18:49

think of Gordon Ramsay. I think

18:51

of the chef who yells at

18:53

everyone and has no patience

18:55

and you're scared to be in

18:57

the kitchen them. Totally. Oh my god. Gordon Ramsay is

18:59

such a cult leader when I do fucking

19:01

love his shows. I mean, he also was an

19:03

accent, so it's like Okay. Yealink me, daddy. You

19:05

know what I mean? Yeal

19:07

me my favorite accent. I'm gonna

19:09

continue to miss the hanger. Yeah. Although it is

19:11

weird because, like, he is a father

19:13

now. I think I'm closer in age to his daughter

19:15

than I am. So I'm like, okay, don't yell at me.

19:17

That's why he's daddy. Yeah.

19:19

These moves to diversify

19:22

kitchens are so recent of

19:24

twenty nineteen. Book by the famous chef

19:26

Jean Georges called My Life in twelve

19:28

recipes told the story of locking a

19:30

dishwasher in the walk in and beating him

19:32

up as punishment for taking a break while a critic was

19:34

in the restaurant. So he's essentially

19:36

ragging about that in a very cult leader ish

19:38

manner. Yeah. I don't like that. It seems

19:40

toxic if seems

19:42

narcissistic. And quite frankly, it's

19:44

just not smart. I mean, we talk about this with our

19:46

guest later, but it's like, you have to

19:48

appreciate every person in that kitchen

19:50

because they bring a lot of

19:52

value to the line, to the

19:54

kitchen community. If you don't have a

19:56

dishwasher, you don't have clean plates

19:58

and so you don't have something to put your food on. It really is

20:00

so salty that this violent

20:03

chaotic energy is

20:05

just what's suspected

20:07

and because you were the victim of it once,

20:09

you then perpetuate it and you think it

20:11

can't be any other way. It sounds a lot like

20:13

you know, fraternities and sororities. If I

20:15

was hazed, I'm going to haze. And it

20:18

also is very narcissist because

20:20

it's this idea of the chef's

20:22

thinking The only thing making this restaurant as

20:24

good as it is is me.

20:26

And I am irreplaceable, but

20:28

as we now know, due to the

20:31

Internet, Everyone is replaceable. So

20:33

value your team because, like,

20:35

you're just as replaceable as they are.

20:37

Speaking of the structure

20:40

of the kitchen just like cults' kitchens

20:42

need to have a hierarchy

20:44

in order for power to

20:46

be distributed the way that the poll leader

20:48

once. You're expected to pay or do so you can rise in the ranks.

20:50

The structure and control head chefs have over

20:53

line cooks breaks them down to keep them

20:55

in line. and thinking that the only way

20:57

out is to work harder and follow order

20:59

and move up. Yeah. I mean, if you work

21:01

on the line, you likely don't

21:03

make that much money you simply cannot afford to

21:05

quit or be fired. So it forces you

21:07

to stay in line even when you're

21:09

being abused. In twenty eighteen,

21:12

The average annual wage for restaurant cooks was around

21:14

twenty seven thousand dollars a year. A

21:16

quote from a restaurant industry

21:19

employee in An

21:21

eater article said the only way I could see

21:23

out of this financial insecurity was to

21:25

move up. I needed to climb the ladder

21:27

and to do that I couldn't ruffle

21:29

feathers. And again, to reiterate a lot of the time the

21:31

people who get involved in kitchen culture

21:33

and the restaurant industry are people who might

21:35

not have a degree they

21:37

don't have a fallback plan, and so they're kind of

21:39

very selfishly imprisoned in

21:41

this industry in this kitchen. You're gonna be

21:43

like, how did you relate this to mean girls?

21:46

But It reminds me of when someone

21:48

plays a character for so long

21:50

that they become the character. I think

21:52

a lot of these people who start in toxic

21:54

kitchens probably tell themselves You

21:56

know what? I'm just not gonna ruffle any

21:59

feathers because I need to get to the top. And then

22:01

when I get to the top, I'm gonna change

22:03

the culture. The benevolent dictator.

22:05

Yeah. And so when you get to the top, you've been doing it

22:07

for so long, but it's just who you become.

22:09

Yeah. Of course. When, you

22:11

know, Lindsey Lohan was pretending to be

22:13

the mean girl, and she just became the mean girl. Yeah.

22:16

You're cold, hard plastic, and

22:18

she was like, I just I didn't know who I

22:20

was anymore. You know? Totally.

22:22

Totally. I love that comparison. I'm

22:24

never mad at a mean girl's reference. Yeah.

22:26

There's also a very specific

22:28

hierarchical system in the kitchen industry called

22:30

the brigade system where each

22:32

level has one head and each will

22:34

within a level will

22:36

hort to that head. Yeah. And I just

22:38

learned this off the show, the

22:41

bear, but not all

22:43

kitchens use that system. Right. It's seen

22:45

as one of stricter systems

22:47

and antiquated because it

22:49

is so hierarchical. And it's

22:51

French and it's French. Oh, my god's

22:53

video run takes place in France and the character

22:55

of Colette has a line that I love so much

22:57

where she's like interrupting a press conference and she's

22:59

like, I hate to be rude, but with

23:02

French, That

23:04

brigade system is what gave

23:06

the militaristic structure to

23:09

kitchens and girl. It's weird because it

23:11

is a community, but it feels like when the

23:13

system is so strict, people

23:15

are demeaned for asking people to

23:17

teach them new things. They're scared, you

23:19

know, to ask for help. And so I think that creates

23:21

a culture where individuals

23:24

aren't growing as people so that the kitchen isn't

23:26

growing as a whole. like

23:28

any industry in dissent

23:30

and diversification is ultimately good

23:32

for art and progress.

23:35

Yeah. And it's just very cult leader ish that

23:37

this industry oftentimes doesn't make any

23:39

room for that. It's better to teach a

23:41

person to fish. you know, it's not saying.

23:43

Oh. Teach Amanda Fish,

23:46

then you don't -- Yeah. -- sitting out with him or look

23:48

at his fish showing pictures on

23:50

hinge. On hinge. Oh,

23:52

god. No. We need to stop digital. Stop

23:54

digital. Okay. Creating a

23:56

community where you feel worthless for

23:58

asking and you have fear and

23:59

intimidation reminds me a

24:00

lot of Hollywood assistance. You

24:03

know, it's like you're told that you need to, like,

24:05

know everything about your boss

24:07

but you're not allowed to ask many questions. This

24:10

toxic space where you have to tip toe

24:12

around people, but it's like how can

24:14

you be the best employee if you are scared to

24:16

ask questions. This is why we get so many

24:18

suggestions for this podcast is because

24:20

every cultish industry will

24:23

remind you of the cultish industry that

24:25

you've been a part of. So long

24:27

story short, we just have to do the cult of Hollywood

24:29

Assistant as always one. So you can,

24:31

like, get it out of your system. The way that I

24:33

did when we did the cult of theater kids, it was very

24:35

cathartic. Yeah. The thing that I think is

24:37

actually maybe cultiest about kitchen

24:39

culture is how they demand

24:42

inordinate amounts of time and

24:44

dedication to the industry. There is this

24:46

expectation that you will do anything

24:48

because sheffing is

24:50

really spiritual calling, not just a job,

24:52

not just an art form. Additionally, because you're

24:54

spending all of your time in the restaurant, you're partying

24:56

with them at night, you're maybe getting fucked up with

24:58

them, you like sleep in, get up,

25:01

do it again. These are the

25:03

only people that you're seeing, this is only language and culture that

25:05

you're participating in, and so then it becomes completely

25:07

normalized to you. You're you're isolated

25:09

from the outside world. Yeah. It becomes

25:11

your family. You

25:13

can't distinguish the line

25:15

between what's right and what's wrong, and

25:17

that's where it gets so blurry. toxic like a

25:19

fundamentalist Mormon family. Yeah.

25:22

Calling in a professional team a family has,

25:24

I think, been widely established as

25:26

problematic at this point, but because restaurant culture is so

25:28

all consuming and so codependent,

25:31

kitchen dynamics can get really

25:34

incestuous out hide the restaurant

25:36

too. I saw this meeting the other day that said

25:38

bartenders or chefs will say I know special

25:40

place and then take you to the walk in.

25:42

I remember at that

25:44

restaurant that I worked in, in New York

25:46

City, after your shift, you have

25:48

your shift drinks, and it's really late at

25:50

night. Everybody is all up in each other's

25:52

business. Like, you were just screaming and sweating

25:54

and swearing together. And

25:56

now you're like getting kind of tipsy

25:58

and hooking up later

26:00

and doing blow. I mean, it's

26:03

obviously not that intense in

26:05

every single restaurant, but

26:07

anyone who's read the book sweetheart knows

26:09

what I'm talking about. Yeah.

26:11

And that's True in a lot of different

26:13

ways, in the way that you don't question older

26:15

family members, like a lot of people who work at

26:17

restaurants, don't question their

26:19

superiors. I have a friend who works at a small restaurant

26:22

here in LA. I'm like, I wanna go but the

26:24

food is so expensive and she's like,

26:26

it's really expensive because it has to

26:27

because like they aren't making a

26:28

profit. And I understand that it's hard to make

26:31

a profit in small personally

26:33

owned restaurants, but they were charging

26:35

twenty dollars for broccoli. You can still

26:37

turn a profit on that by charging

26:39

less. So maybe question your

26:41

superiors a little bit more. Yeah.

26:43

The defensiveness is something that you see in

26:45

a lot of these cult like

26:47

groups because it's not as if she

26:49

doesn't have a point, but also you have a

26:51

point and the unwillingness to

26:53

engage age in that dialogue without getting super defensive

26:55

of her higher ups might

26:57

be symptomatic of some cultish dynamics.

27:00

And speaking of it being an art form, I

27:02

keep using this word, but it really is that

27:04

Genesee kwa about food. That

27:06

makes it like amazing. And so

27:08

I feel like chefs can get away

27:10

with so much because this is art, only

27:12

my hands, could've put this together. If in

27:14

this analogy, food is God, they're

27:17

the prophet. They're like, I and

27:19

only I have a direct line to

27:21

God. Speaking of God, there's a

27:23

new pizza place downtown from

27:26

the chef table guy. Oh. Only the best pizza in

27:28

America and they opened one downtown we should go. Oh,

27:30

we should go. So we have been

27:32

teetering around the name of our

27:34

guests, but we are so excited to

27:36

introduce him. We're going to be

27:38

talking to Maddie Mathieson,

27:40

a Canadian chef restaurant tour,

27:42

and he also played Neil in

27:44

the bear. He was executive chef of

27:47

parts and labor, a restaurant located

27:49

in Toronto. I mean, he's

27:51

hilarious and just

27:53

like seems like a fun hang.

27:54

We cannot wait for him to hear this

27:57

conversation.

28:02

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slash cult. Just to

33:29

start off, do you want to

33:31

tell our listeners who you are and

33:33

how you're connected to the cult

33:35

of kitchen culture?

33:36

I'm Maddie Mathieson. I'm a

33:38

part of restaurants. I've only kind

33:40

of worked in restaurants my entire life,

33:43

except for like some small shitty jobs and

33:45

early high school. So like most of my

33:47

life, I've only worked in restaurants. I'm

33:49

devoted to to feeding

33:50

people. And we enjoy eating. We

33:53

do especially appreciate it.

33:54

Eating is pretty good. Eating has always

33:56

been the human pastime.

33:58

I just had a peanut butter and

33:59

jelly on my way here. It

34:01

was delicious. That's a

34:02

nice sandwich. Underrated,

34:04

I believe. On white bread or, like,

34:06

a whole grilled White bread. Admittedly, it was un

34:10

uncrustable. When we say

34:12

the cult of

34:14

Christian culture, How do you interpret

34:15

that? In other words, intuitively, what

34:18

do you think restaurant kitchens and cults

34:20

have in common? Well, I think there's a

34:22

lot

34:22

of common common traits.

34:24

And most restaurants is usually

34:26

a chef or somebody in charge

34:30

restaurant that usually has

34:32

ultimate power. Most businesses

34:34

have a boss, and I

34:36

think that chefs most of time have

34:38

a very large ego and higher

34:41

power or God like

34:43

ego or Superman type

34:46

ego. niches and all that stuff. And then people want to be

34:48

a part of those cultures. Be

34:50

a part of those restaurants. I wanna

34:53

go work here. I

34:54

wanna be a that exactly what that

34:56

could be. It's like twin peaks. Like,

34:59

you know, the bugs crawling in

35:02

the fucking dirt and you find a finger, you know, and

35:04

you don't really know what

35:06

it really is until you get

35:09

in there and you're like, oh,

35:11

is this what I thought it was? I thought we're all just,

35:13

like, smoking weed, hanging out, looking at

35:15

flowers, and fucking I

35:17

don't know if that's what this is. You

35:20

know? And so I think restaurants and cults

35:22

probably have a lot in common and then

35:24

they're praised and then they're

35:26

hated and then they're built up

35:28

and they're destroyed and

35:30

falsehoods or romanticisms

35:32

around them and always like anyone can walk

35:34

off the and become a chef. You know, you

35:37

can go and work, you can start as

35:39

a dishwasher, work your way up, and you

35:41

don't need some degree. It's a place of

35:43

the fringe, you know, the neglect it.

35:45

It's a place for a lot of people

35:47

that can kinda go and just get

35:49

a job. And you can make money.

35:51

You can be anything. And then just

35:53

be like, I'm gonna go serve tables and you make money that night cash.

35:56

There's so much folklore

35:58

around

35:59

restaurants and III

36:02

don't know. It's all quite sickening, you know. You

36:04

really hit the nail on

36:05

the head. You were like, I thought we were all

36:07

looking at flowers, smoking weed, and fucking. And, like,

36:09

that could describe any

36:11

cult in history -- Yeah. -- or just like a kid. That's

36:14

absolutely right. And there is like so much

36:16

sexiness to kitchen culture. I mean, you're feeding

36:18

people. That's

36:20

very intimate. but then, like, the dynamics that

36:22

emerge between and amongst

36:24

everyone who works in the kitchen can

36:26

get like fun

36:28

and destructive. Yeah. You

36:30

mentioned that you started, you know, really

36:32

early on, like, working at restaurants and then

36:34

slowly developed

36:36

your career. Could you tell us the story of

36:38

how you were inducted into the cult of kitchen culture and how you really rose through

36:40

the ranks? You know, I

36:42

went

36:42

to culinary school just because It

36:46

was the only school I got accepted to. Applied to four different colleges

36:48

for four different things. I got

36:51

accepted to Humber College in

36:54

Toronto. and I went because mostly I just wanted to go to Toronto.

36:56

I wanted to go to the city. I come from a small

36:58

town. I just wanted to go to like hardcore and bunk shows.

37:00

Get out of like my shitty little little

37:03

farm town. which now I live in and have a farm farm farm, which

37:05

is a funny full circle thing. But went

37:07

to culinary school and then I wasn't

37:10

really good at anything in

37:12

high school. I didn't really care for high school. I had a lot of friends. I

37:14

like doing drugs and getting drunk on the weekends

37:16

and having parties and doing all that

37:18

kind of shit. I always just did literally

37:20

just enough to

37:22

get by I didn't care. I knew like, I'm like, I'm not gonna be a scientist.

37:24

I'm not you know, like, I'm not gonna be

37:26

an engineer. I'm not gonna be any

37:28

of these

37:30

things that parents thought I was

37:32

gonna be and I don't think they had high hopes to

37:34

begin with, really. But I think in

37:36

culinary school, I found that

37:38

I I was good at something. naturally. I was

37:40

always just like the class clown as you I'm

37:42

sure you can imagine. That was my safe

37:44

place, you know, making fun of authority,

37:46

I guess, in front of large groups

37:48

people. culinary school was like, oh, I can do this. I could

37:50

make a stock. I could debone a

37:52

chicken. I could make a

37:56

Remalog. can make holidays relatively easy. It didn't seem too stressful

37:58

to pour clarified butter into eggs

38:00

and whip it up. You're like a pilot. You

38:02

know,

38:02

you could have like this life

38:05

and all these interests and stuff. But when you're

38:07

in the plane, you have, like, really steady

38:09

hands. Yeah. Why? I certainly

38:11

do now. I've

38:12

had a long history of opening and closing restaurants

38:14

and working in some of the best

38:16

restaurants in Toronto. I even dropped out even though

38:18

I was good at it because I was like, you

38:22

know, punk enough, didn't need a piece of paper to tell me what to do. Yeah.

38:24

So, you know, I dropped out of college and

38:26

then just went on tour with my friend's band,

38:28

got a job at, like, this

38:31

Bistro, which happened to be the

38:33

best bistro in Toronto, and it was

38:35

like this magical place. It was

38:37

all types of people? Well, the

38:38

feelings of acceptance and

38:41

transcendence that you're describing that

38:43

you found when

38:46

entered culinary school in your first kitchen and then

38:48

having exposure to like this eclectic group

38:50

of people that you maybe didn't have access to

38:52

before, it really does sound

38:56

like a lot of the cult origin stories, but biggest

38:58

thing that I I remember,

39:00

the different

39:01

types of people. when

39:03

you're young, you you have, like, what what high school

39:05

was like, what college was like, and then all of

39:07

a sudden you're in the world. So when you go to work, it

39:09

doesn't matter if you're cool or if

39:11

you if if you listen to dead moon or the Smiths or

39:14

whatever. Like, when you go into restaurants, all of a sudden, you're

39:16

like, oh, this person is like, this actor, and this

39:18

person sings jazz -- Yeah. -- all of a

39:20

sudden at a young age, still be

39:22

open up to all these different people. And

39:24

even, like, working with different line cooks, you're

39:26

working, like, you know, still to this day. One of

39:28

my best friends is rang, who was, like, the

39:30

chef there at Lisilec, and why

39:32

the fuck would I be friends with some, like, fifty year

39:34

old Vietnamese guy. You know, and

39:36

and all of a sudden, just

39:38

opens up I don't know,

39:40

it gives you kinda empathy human empathy

39:42

and understanding and being like, oh,

39:44

just because you're not the same as me

39:46

makes you just as cool or whatever.

39:48

It seems like you're just hanging out, cooking, and working twelve

39:50

hour days, and then you go and drink,

39:52

and you're at after hours, and

39:54

then you're back at somebody's

39:56

apartment and you go to bed at eight AM and then you're

39:58

back at the restaurant at eleven and you

40:00

do that for years and

40:02

you're like, This is my this

40:04

is my team, you know? Bunch of

40:06

freaks.

40:06

Yeah. It's a true community. It like

40:08

blows your world open, but then at the same

40:10

time, it also hums your whole world, and that could

40:12

be insular too. Yeah. I worked on the

40:15

Anthony boarding documentary. He had addiction before,

40:17

and then he switched from one cult

40:19

of, like, drugs to the cult

40:21

of, like, kitchen culture almost and use that as,

40:24

like, a replacement. And then he switched to the

40:26

traveling thing. You replace one

40:28

lifestyle with another. There's a void. We want something to fill that void so

40:30

badly whether it's drugs or a

40:32

community or we're

40:34

chasing something. Yeah.

40:35

Boyd, the the emptiness. I always wear,

40:38

like, a fucking, like, a rope

40:40

bridge floating over some

40:42

fucking giant

40:44

crevice cravast or whatever the fuck. And you're just this, like,

40:46

stupid little rope, floating over

40:48

the nothingness, looking over and

40:51

you think you can just fill it and you got your

40:53

pockets are filled with only so much

40:55

junk, nothing changes. You're still

40:57

out

40:57

there alone on on

41:00

that little dangly rope that's

41:02

moving constantly. Speaking to, like,

41:04

the addiction stuff, I'm

41:06

certainly a workaholic. I have, like,

41:08

fifty five fucking companies. One of those things where it's just like I

41:10

stopped doing drugs and drinking and all

41:12

that stuff, started traveling and doing all

41:14

that. And it is like one of those things where it's

41:16

just like If you're not doing

41:18

the work spiritually and doing

41:20

all that kind of stuff, like anything, it's

41:22

very difficult to find true

41:24

balance of any sort when you're trying

41:26

to live any type of

41:28

dynamic kind of life or a simple

41:30

life. Like, it's very difficult to do

41:32

anything.

41:32

I think a lot of people when they

41:34

join a certain community, whether it's cold or not, they think, like, oh, this is

41:36

it. Like, this is gonna solve everything.

41:38

And it was promised to solve everything.

41:41

but you're right. Even if you're kind of just sitting still,

41:43

life is constantly changing around you. And the second

41:45

you think you have balance, it's it's

41:47

fleeting. I guess restaurants kind of

41:49

remind me of like social media. In a way, you

41:51

only see the front of the restaurant. You see, like, the front of the room.

41:53

You see, like, the finished product. Everything

41:55

came together and everything's

41:58

running smoothly because the servers

42:00

are, like, at peace with you, at your

42:02

table. But then behind the restaurant,

42:04

social media, it's like all of our lives are

42:06

so hectic and chaos. but no one's

42:08

showing that aspect or all the hard work

42:10

that came to

42:11

lead to, like, the

42:12

front of the restaurant. Food's interesting. No matter

42:14

what, when those doors open, everyone

42:17

needs to be ready. It's a game every

42:19

day. And everyone is there to

42:21

judge you. Everyone is there

42:23

to hopefully enjoy you. Some people are

42:25

coming in to hate you. It

42:27

is like social media. Yeah.

42:30

And and it really doesn't matter

42:32

what

42:32

kind of day anybody

42:34

was having. Now we're learning that

42:36

it does matter how people are feeling and it does matter how

42:39

we deal with that and how we

42:41

can support people when you're

42:43

coming into spaces and

42:45

you're having a bummer day. People don't give a fuck. Like, if

42:47

you went into a dining room, hey,

42:50

everything's gonna be ten percent off.

42:52

But that is gonna make everyone's life

42:54

in the back. a little bit

42:56

worse because then we won't be able to pay

42:58

benefits. And everybody's sitting down. If if we gave

43:00

you ten percent off, would you really care? Would you

43:02

take the ten percent off? or would you make the

43:04

thirty people that made all your food tonight have

43:06

a little bit happier lives? But

43:08

just a little bit, not much. I'm

43:10

sure a lot of people would be like, I'd take

43:12

ten percent sent off. I'm just eating a salad. You know, I'm just eating a salad. I mean,

43:14

the cheeseburger. Like, what do you want from me? It's a

43:16

tough thing. That type of business, if

43:18

you're perfect

43:20

business operator, you're still profiting

43:22

at like a ten percent margin. I

43:23

do feel guilty every time I go

43:26

out and eat at a restaurant because I have a

43:28

vague I idea of how terribly

43:30

the financial income business structure is there.

43:32

With that being said, do you wanna

43:35

explain a higher your cool structure

43:37

of the kitchen? What purpose it serves? How you keep morale high under those

43:40

circumstances? You know, the chef usually

43:41

would

43:42

be either

43:45

the face of the cult or the actual cult leader. The

43:47

biggest, like, secret that nobody really

43:49

understands either is that most

43:51

front facing chefs

43:54

aren't even probably majority owners of their restaurant. Yeah. Like, they're

43:57

still not

43:57

the ultimate leader. Like, the higher power

43:59

is

43:59

the financier. Right.

44:03

It's a wild little game

44:05

out here right now.

44:06

At what point did you start

44:09

taking it seriously? Was it a point where

44:11

you kind of fell into, like, someone else's

44:13

call. It's a interesting thing because under one particular

44:14

chef that I really

44:17

believed in, I should say. Also, I

44:19

became a chef at twenty

44:22

six I liked working. The hours never really bug to me.

44:24

I can drink and do get a fucking bag of

44:26

coke after and hang the fuck out and

44:28

smoke cigs with my friends and

44:31

tell stories about your childhood till six, seven AM,

44:33

then, like, I'm fucking in it. I feel like

44:35

it's very similar to the life of a

44:37

stand up comic. It really is

44:39

just these people are enjoying themselves and then it

44:41

creates a career. I also think it's

44:43

interesting that you sort of represent the

44:45

type of person who

44:47

strikes out on their own and starts their own cult because

44:49

they realize they don't wanna drink someone else's

44:51

Kuwait so to speak. I think of the

44:54

analogy with corporate culture. Like, there are people

44:56

who start working at a startup in Silicon

44:58

Valley and they're like, I really wanna

45:00

realize the CEO's vision. And then there are the

45:02

people who are like fucking. I'm gonna start

45:04

my own startup. And that's sort of like

45:06

the cult leader

45:07

type. I was dumb enough to jump.

45:09

I'm dumb enough to jump every day. I'll start

45:11

a business right now. Is

45:12

it really dumb though? Like, what do you think that quality is? I don't think it's dumb. I

45:15

think it's funny. You're like, I'll start a

45:17

business right now. I'll walk out the

45:19

door, and I'll another one. I'll fucking leave

45:21

this podcast right now. You're like, I'll

45:23

start a fucking podcast. I'll start

45:25

a rival podcast. No. If

45:27

I'm over podcast, but not

45:29

doing them, doing my own. Shard to

45:32

powerful truth angels. Shard to two charts still

45:34

holding it down. Nothing is sustainable

45:36

about it. I ran as hard as I could. I don't think I tricked anybody

45:38

into, like, opening a restaurant for me. A

45:40

restaurant was already happening,

45:42

odd fellows. and I kinda jumped

45:44

in on it in the last, like,

45:46

month and cooked a menu and they've

45:48

hired me to be the chef. And it was a very small

45:50

team. It was just like me and

45:52

two cooks. and like we had a dishwasher on the weekends. That restaurant

45:54

in itself is very salty

45:56

because there wasn't a person that was fucking

45:58

over thirty that

46:00

worked there. there'd be, like, all of us

46:02

just, like, sleeping upstairs in the apartment. And, like, no one would sleep. And

46:04

we were just partying. We'd be hanging on the roof

46:06

throwing beer cans at people. And,

46:10

like, We didn't give a fuck. If you were a while made really

46:12

good food. That's kind of like

46:13

life though. I feel like you just realized it

46:15

at an earlier age because

46:18

you jumped. no one ever

46:20

knows what they're doing. You know, everyone's jumping

46:22

every day, even like working in corporate

46:24

America, like, that's a decision you make every

46:26

day. And people think that there's so much security

46:28

in a corporate job. but you could get

46:30

fired -- Yeah. -- tomorrow. It's the

46:32

illusion of control that people hang on to

46:34

so tightly. But let me ask because I've been

46:36

always so curious about this. The power structure kitchens

46:38

reminds me of the military, but it also

46:40

reminds me of cult, why do you think

46:42

there is that unchecked,

46:45

unquestioned hierarchy where,

46:47

like, you just have do what the chef says. I think

46:49

it

46:49

comes from, like, not medieval

46:52

fucking times, but, you know, like, it

46:54

comes from, like, early nineteen hundreds and shit like

46:56

a Scoffier. they had to be

46:58

roasting quails perfectly and

47:00

making patea's cakes and

47:02

things and feeding kings and queens and

47:04

all these things and like, something

47:06

happens and, like, someone's in trouble. If you

47:08

take one recipe and give five people that

47:10

thing, you will have five outcomes

47:12

probably. Right. You know, It's very

47:14

difficult to get people to cook the same

47:16

way in the nuances. Well, it's

47:18

usually not high. It's usually facade,

47:20

and it's masked with alcoholism and

47:22

drugs, and other things that can come along with being in

47:24

restaurants. But now it's very different because I

47:26

love restaurants for like six, seven years. And

47:28

I just did all my vice shit and traveled

47:30

around and

47:32

write books and do all that stuff. So it was just like, I went

47:34

and had a whole other life. And then

47:36

now I'm back into restaurants, I learned what

47:38

not to do my entire career.

47:41

And now it's like I get to work with amazing people

47:43

to do it right or at least

47:46

understand what we think is right and

47:48

then work towards still a moving

47:50

goalpost, but at least

47:52

have infrastructure around that

47:54

to create places

47:56

that are spiritually,

47:58

financially, career moving,

48:00

positives. You don't always have to

48:02

have the answers. Like, that's the thing that's

48:05

amazing word live performance problem solving is such an

48:07

amazing thing to do. I don't know the

48:10

answer. Why why don't we talk

48:12

about it? And I'm sure with

48:14

five of

48:16

us here, we're gonna figure something out that makes sense for the group.

48:18

It sounds to me. It's

48:19

so important that you, like, took that time

48:21

off and stepped away because You

48:23

mentioned there are so many things that make you hectic in

48:26

a kitchen, and there's that history of the

48:28

French brigade. But I also think the

48:30

timeliness of every

48:32

meal has to be exactly the same. I don't even make my own

48:34

meals the same. And

48:36

the fact that, like, chefs have to do it the same for

48:38

an audience is insane. Just

48:40

think everyone has to have everything

48:42

ready. You have to have every

48:44

single thing consistent. L0LI

48:46

tried to make Duck Comfy for my parents

48:49

on Christmas. I ruined Christmas. We

48:51

got into a huge fight, obviously,

48:54

over the duck, over just

48:56

cooking and, like, I was stressed, so I can't

48:58

imagine in a real kitchen, at a

49:00

real restaurant. It's funny that you talk about

49:02

amputating because you talking about

49:04

some of those origins in France.

49:06

It's like, You sometimes

49:08

see in kitchen culture now.

49:10

People are so afraid to

49:12

disobey the chef. Early France they

49:14

literally might have gotten the guillotine. Those steaks have really

49:17

carried over into today. For

49:19

chef is yelling

49:20

at any moment,

49:23

That means that they've lost control and they don't

49:25

know how to articulate, how to speak and

49:27

communicate to their teams. So that's another

49:29

thing that a lot of chefs or

49:32

mostly men are pretty bad

49:34

communicators. How do you

49:36

communicate with ten, twelve,

49:38

521 other person

49:40

constantly telling them what you want to

49:42

do or what they want to do,

49:44

understand what they want to do, then you can

49:46

help them

49:48

even. because as Sushan's job is give everything to that chef

49:50

or that chef to cuisine, what they

49:52

need every day, and to understand

49:54

and to set them up for success.

49:57

and then person underneath them is there to set that

50:00

person up for success. And all of a sudden

50:02

that chain is broken

50:04

and then you look and

50:06

you're like, You

50:06

just fucked me. The pressure is unfortunate,

50:08

but that the pressure is the person

50:10

sitting in that table doesn't give

50:12

a fuck. The way that you

50:14

describe it, it almost sounds like the customer is the ultimate cult

50:16

leader. If the customer were just a little bit more

50:19

empathetic, customer's always right.

50:22

Where where where the fuck does that come from? People think

50:24

that, like, they've been told by society

50:26

from some fucking thing in the fifties that

50:29

customers always write just because you're paying doesn't mean

50:31

that you're right. The customer always write falls

50:33

into this category of a cult

50:35

language technique that all cult

50:37

leaders use called thought terminating cliche, where once you say

50:39

it, the conversation shuts down, no

50:42

dissent, no questioning can follow. Like, the

50:44

customers always write the end

50:46

fall in line. The way you

50:48

described it having to do the same meal

50:50

every time, I just wanted to say, and

50:52

you kind of become desensitized or it's kind of

50:54

like changing the wheels in

50:56

a car. It reminds me a lot of stand up just because a lot of stand kind

50:58

of become like desensitized to their own material

51:00

so that they can deliver it in the

51:02

exact same way every time.

51:05

but it's that same thing of, like, the meal is kind

51:07

of a joke. It can hit different with every

51:09

audience. I think all good creatives treat it

51:11

like a trade. yeah, you have

51:13

to. You think that you're special because you can use

51:15

your knife better than the person next

51:17

to you. You'll be

51:20

fantastic. If you can teach that person how to Brennaize that

51:22

carrot. If you give them a couple minutes of

51:24

your time and instead of looking at

51:26

them like they're fucking some imbecile, why

51:29

don't

51:29

you lift them up. That'll make you a better person. It'll make them a

51:31

better person. It'll put better bison class into

51:34

the fucking kitchen. We're all in this.

51:36

And we are

51:38

all here to try to help each other be better every single day. A lot

51:40

of people think that every restaurant is

51:42

probably toxic. You're constantly

51:44

trying because I think people

51:46

are toxic. It is one of

51:48

those things where we are the

51:50

variables. Somebody can come in with bad mood,

51:52

and that bad mood sets everybody else off.

51:54

Everyone, let's take a break. Let's take a moment. Let's

51:56

air it out. Let's do a little

51:58

numbest day. Jimmy, why are

52:00

you upset? It's

52:00

like a kindergarten hawking circle. And

52:03

speaking of those moving variables in

52:05

the hierarchy in the position, do you

52:07

think that there are any, like, hidden positions along

52:09

the hierarchy or secret unspoken powerful positions?

52:11

Like, you never

52:13

fuck with the dishwashers. you

52:15

know, and her name was obviously a big fan of that. And

52:17

and they're they are the heart

52:20

and soul. they

52:22

work extremely hard. They do a lot of jobs that

52:24

they're not supposed to do. You have to feed

52:26

them well. You take care of. You give them whatever they

52:28

need. They ask for a raise. Give them a raise.

52:31

because

52:31

they're important for the vibe too. It feels like

52:33

they're not just a dishwasher, they're a part of

52:35

the community. And so if they ask for something you

52:38

wanna respect, that. I'd

52:39

rather a line cook, walk offline than than have my dishwasher leave.

52:41

Won't tell you that much. Are there

52:43

any initiation

52:44

rituals that new

52:46

members of cult of

52:48

kitchens have to go through for acceptance. All

52:50

that stuff is part of

52:51

what everyone's trying to leave behind. Back in

52:53

the day at this one restaurant, like,

52:55

there definitely was a late

52:58

night club called

53:00

Man's Club. Everyone could be in Man's

53:02

Club. It wasn't just for men, but you

53:04

had to burn yourself with a knife

53:06

And

53:07

so we all have scars, front of house, back of

53:09

house, whoever was hanging out the

53:11

latest, would be like tonight,

53:14

you had to burn it every time. Anyone

53:16

who's like man's club, and then we'd all get

53:18

the candle out and heat up the butter knife,

53:21

and you'd heat it up and then because I have them all

53:23

over me. But Oh my

53:24

god. It's literally worse than next day.

53:26

That's from early two thousands. Like, that was

53:28

like an o g spot. all different walks of life and

53:30

everyone liked loved it. Seems like

53:32

everyone was proud of them because it shows that you're

53:34

a part of the cult. We would do it

53:35

at parties and, like, even my

53:37

wife has them. Oh my

53:39

god. It trickles to the

53:42

family. We were just at

53:42

this, like, wedding one time, and we were all talking

53:45

about it, and we were all yac down. We're

53:47

in the bathroom. We're like, let's do it. We did the bride. We did, like, a whole crew.

53:49

We did this whole thing where we just burned

53:51

everyone with butter knives. That

53:53

is the cultiest shit I've ever heard and

53:56

that that's so

53:56

funny. The fact that it's trickling

53:59

to the family is giving like amway.

54:01

You know, it's the family business,

54:03

do it to all your friends. I love that you

54:05

guys, like, did it at a place that was, like,

54:07

celebratory, you're like, but wedding, fuck it. Let's fucking

54:09

do it. They're still in

54:10

their, like, get a chorizo, like, wedding dress.

54:12

a funny thing.

54:13

So we're gonna ask you one more question and then we're gonna play a little game and then we'll wrap

54:15

up. If you could snap your finger and change something

54:17

about kitchen culture to make

54:19

it less salty would

54:21

you do that? And if so,

54:24

how? Yeah. A

54:25

hundred percent. You would just

54:27

change the mentality that

54:30

you're worthless if you fucking burn a piece of red. You're not

54:32

worthless. You made a mistake and

54:34

now do it again. And I think

54:36

like that is the thing

54:38

that becomes toxic is the way

54:40

that people handle that

54:42

particular situation. When

54:44

you do something wrong,

54:46

rather handled with aggression, handled

54:49

with empathy. because most of the time, if

54:51

you were if you fucked up, you'd

54:54

be berated verbally and

54:56

physically. What's the opposite? You gas

54:58

somebody up. be like, hey, that was a

55:00

big mistake. Let's try to do that again. Because every single day, you're cutting onions.

55:02

You know, you're you're you're slice in onions.

55:06

all day? And I slice the onions wrong, and chef comes over,

55:08

yells at me for slicing my onions

55:10

wrong. What if they just gave me a

55:12

little ounce of positivity instead of

55:15

like calling me a fucking donkey. Yeah. Yeah.

55:17

There's just no reason why the

55:19

culture has to be so

55:21

militant. And so sometimes

55:24

abusive. It's just not necessary. I'm

55:26

highly

55:26

abusive. Imagine calling somebody, you're

55:28

working next to somebody, and they they

55:30

fuck up and you're like, you're a fucking idiot. Why don't you just do that? Like, you're doing a podcast and somebody's

55:32

like, you just talk to your microphone too fucking

55:35

close and it fucking spark. and

55:37

you fucking made a fucking stupid movie, fucking idiot. There's

55:40

just no reason

55:40

for the culture to be that, and it's like passing abuse

55:42

from one generation onto the next. We

55:44

just like need you to break it up.

55:46

How about you? We're gonna jump to a

55:49

game. It's called yes

55:51

chef. We're going to read a

55:53

list of very culty scenarios that

55:55

were on the bear. error that were

55:57

in different things on the air. And you're have to say whether or not

55:59

you have personally witnessed or experienced one

56:01

of those culty scenarios in real life. And

56:03

if so, you'll just

56:06

say, yes. stuff. And if not, you'll say no, chef.

56:08

Right. Number one,

56:11

beingverbally berated slash swornat

56:13

slash verbally assaulted by the head chef while

56:16

having to continue planting

56:18

food. Yes,

56:19

chef.

56:19

Getting into a fist fight with someone in the

56:22

middle of a shift. Yes,

56:24

sir.

56:24

Oh my

56:25

god. Having a chef quit in the

56:27

middle of a huge rush.

56:29

this Yes, sir.

56:30

done a back alley meat

56:32

deal because your original supplier did not come through.

56:36

No.

56:36

now No,

56:38

chef. Okay.

56:39

Trade advantaged clothing for

56:41

ingredients. I would trade other

56:44

things. I would

56:44

trade I used to trade meals for drugs

56:47

Put off

56:47

processing your emotions or traumas because you

56:50

are too busy with the

56:52

kitchen. Yeah, sure.

56:53

Thrown up

56:53

before work every morning from

56:56

anxiety.

56:56

No, sure. I I was ironclad.

56:59

Prospect. I figured there are

57:00

other ways, but I'm sorry. Yeah. There's there's

57:02

a lot other ways. Yeah. I

57:04

was in a

57:05

bar for have an employee sell drugs out by the dumpsters.

57:08

Yes, sure. Had

57:08

a boss slap

57:09

something you made directly out of

57:12

your hands? Yes,

57:13

sure. Failed a

57:14

health inspection because someone left a

57:16

pack of cigarettes on the gas

57:18

range. No, sure.

57:20

Last one had to deal with everything in the restaurant breaking all

57:22

throughout the course of the day, the toilet bursting

57:24

power going out, walk and freezer repair

57:28

cost. for five thousand dollars. In some way or another, yes, chef. Yeah.

57:30

So the long and the short of

57:32

it is that the bear is one hundred

57:35

percent accurate. Yeah.

57:36

I think it's any small business.

57:38

I think it it is one of those things

57:40

where it is there's a

57:43

lot of stuff that you have to

57:45

do to run a small family owned business.

57:47

There's no real financial stable backer or

57:49

hedge fund or some bullshit and

57:51

you're in there. working, putting

57:54

your head down, trying to deal with

57:56

everything, leaving, and trying

57:58

to do everything, you

58:00

won't be able to do everything or

58:02

lead. Yeah. and it's a snake eating its own tail. Yeah. And you're you'll

58:04

get lost. You need a lot of amazing

58:06

people to make a restaurant

58:08

run soundly. Not just

58:12

a chef, does the chef there's there's yes chef bullshit the

58:14

biggest bullshit in the world. When I

58:16

walk into my restaurants, I'm Maddie. I'm

58:19

not the chef. Once again, I wanna know what everybody thinks,

58:21

how everybody feels, I wanna know all of

58:24

that. Once we collectively figure out

58:26

how to make

58:28

a dish better. That is our biggest concern. As a

58:30

collective, what is the best that we can

58:32

do to make our food the best? I

58:34

guess ideally in

58:34

a kitchen, the food should be

58:37

a call later. It should be. We I

58:39

bow. I bow a flavor. It's the one true

58:41

thing in the world. Our perspective and

58:43

our perception of what we believe

58:45

that dish is is going to be

58:47

different every single time. Yeah. Somebody eats

58:49

it.

58:49

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much

58:51

for joining us. If

58:54

folks wanna follow your cult. Where can they find

58:56

you? Just Maddie

58:58

mathison.

58:59

I think most of I'm not

59:01

too sure. It doesn't matter.

59:04

Don't all of me. Don't follow somebody else. I love

59:05

it. I mean, thank you so much for coming on

59:08

this podcast. We had such a fun time talking to

59:10

you, just such big fans of

59:12

your work. truly.

59:14

This has been fun.

59:14

Most of podcasts I do are just like

59:16

pee pee poo poo podcast, so it's

59:19

nice to to do something

59:21

that put together. It's it's very well produced.

59:23

We really appreciate that. Thank you.

59:26

Thank you.

59:31

Hi.

59:32

I'm Sam. I'm

59:34

from Philly, and I think

59:37

the coldiest thing about working on a restaurant

59:39

is the phrase if there's time

59:40

to lean, there's time to clean because god

59:42

forbid a service worker sit down.

59:45

The money, the

59:45

hours, like, the whole culture of

59:48

it, it's nearly impossible to get

59:50

out or if you try to work a normal job with

59:52

it, it's hard and it's almost

59:54

devastating at some point so that

59:55

I had a chef that would

59:57

get so mad screaming

59:59

even belittle you, call you every name

1:00:02

in the book, even throw knives in the kitchen.

1:00:04

You mess up the kitchen ticket. If somebody in the back

1:00:06

line mess up the food, But at the end of the

1:00:08

night, at that bar when we coated up for our

1:00:10

after shift drinks, we were

1:00:12

all family.

1:00:14

Alright, Issa. Out of

1:00:16

these three cult categories,

1:00:18

live your life, watch your back.

1:00:22

and get the

1:00:23

fuck out. What do

1:00:25

we think about the cult

1:00:26

of kitchen culture? I think it

1:00:28

is

1:00:28

a solid watcher back. gotta

1:00:31

be. Yeah. You'll see peasy, lemons,

1:00:34

squeezy. Watch your back. There might be

1:00:36

your onions might be learning.

1:00:38

Behind. Yeah. Behind. All the cool language in kitchen culture

1:00:41

is low key so fun. Yeah. It

1:00:43

really does make you feel like you're a

1:00:45

part of something special and greater

1:00:48

than yourself. Yeah. If you watch the bear and a week after you weren't in kitchen

1:00:50

with, like, your roommates or your friends being,

1:00:52

like, behind, yes, chef, my roommates and

1:00:54

I literally spoke to each other like

1:00:57

that for two weeks. straight. And

1:00:59

I think the reason so solidly because like nonprofits, you

1:01:01

know, there can be good kitchens out

1:01:03

there. We saw that with Maddie saying, if

1:01:05

you are a good chef,

1:01:07

you never yell at someone or you never lose your

1:01:10

temper, and hopefully, like, that kind

1:01:12

of culture is changing.

1:01:14

Yeah. You're open to feedback. You're open to

1:01:17

questioning. You don't want people to worship

1:01:19

you and say, yes, chef.

1:01:21

And hopefully, chef's like, Maddie, well, no, it

1:01:23

sounds like we worship him. But,

1:01:25

yeah, we kinda Hopefully, you know, chefs like Maddie

1:01:27

will start setting the tone for the rest of

1:01:29

the industry.

1:01:31

yeah Yeah. Well,

1:01:32

I'm hungry, but that

1:01:34

is our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be

1:01:36

back in the new cult next week. In the

1:01:38

meantime, stay guilty, but not

1:01:42

too salty.

1:01:49

Sounds

1:01:49

like a cult is created, hosted, and

1:01:51

produced by Amanda Montel and Issa

1:01:54

Modena. Michael Dorfman is our editor.

1:01:56

Our podcast studio is all things

1:01:58

comedy and our theme music is by Casey Kalb. Thank you to our intern

1:02:00

slash production assistant, Naomi Griffin,

1:02:04

to scrapped it sounds like a cult wherever you get your

1:02:06

podcasts, so you never miss an episode. And

1:02:08

if you like our show, feel free to give

1:02:10

us a rating and review on Spotify

1:02:12

or Apple

1:02:14

podcasts. and check us out on Patreon at patreon dot com slash

1:02:16

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