0:00

The views expressed on this episode, as with

0:02

all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult,

0:04

are solely host opinions and quoted allegations.

0:06

The content here should not be taken

0:08

as indisputable fact. This podcast is for

0:10

entertainment purposes only. Whenever

0:13

I see a doctor influencer

0:15

who's like scarily good at

0:17

social media, it's always a

0:19

fucking chiropractor. I

0:22

had, I made a comment about this once because

0:24

it was, think of like mid 2020 when that

0:26

first wave

0:28

of COVID people were like, you know, what is

0:30

this thing? Do we really need the vaccine? Once

0:32

a week, there'd be this new doctor, you know,

0:34

think Facebook headline doctor comes out and says COVID

0:36

is fake. I got to the point that in

0:38

my head I'd see it and I would know

0:40

within five seconds like that's a car. God

0:43

damn it. That's not a doctor. That's a chiropractor. And

0:45

it was every time. This

0:49

is Sounds Like a Cult, a show

0:51

about the modern day cults we all

0:53

follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author

0:55

of the books, Cultish, the language of

0:57

fanaticism and the forthcoming The Age of

1:00

Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show,

1:02

you're going to hear about a different

1:04

fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist

1:06

from Disney adults to Instagram therapists to

1:08

try and answer the big question. This

1:10

group sounds like a cult, but is

1:12

it really? If

1:20

so, is it a live your life, a watch

1:22

your back or to get the fuck out level

1:24

cult? After all, the word

1:26

cult is up to interpretation, but you

1:28

know what's not at all up for debate?

1:31

My obsession with

1:33

watching chiropractor videos

1:35

on YouTube. I

1:38

admit it. I love cracking. I

1:40

love hearing other people crack. I

1:43

love cracking myself, whatever

1:45

you want. Your back, your neck,

1:47

hips, knuckle, toes. I've

1:49

been really into wrists lately. I

1:52

know some people find it really gross, but

1:54

others are like foaming at the mouth for

1:56

it. Like me. I don't know who to

1:58

blame for this. Shane

2:00

this disgusting affinity. I guess I could blame

2:02

my mom see to make we walk on

2:05

her back. When I was a little kids

2:07

though, I grew up in a house where.

2:10

Doubtless? Normal. I

2:12

myself have never been to a

2:14

chiropractor, but I've always been very

2:17

curious about it. There's one chiropractor

2:19

on you tube who does a

2:21

movie called the Ring Gang Earth's

2:23

where he like puts a towel

2:25

under your chin, pulls up and

2:27

like separates all your vertebrae so

2:29

that your six inches taller. or

2:31

is this isn't really that, but

2:33

it looks like it's feals. Incredible.

2:35

So I'm if I didn't know

2:37

what I now know about chiropractors.

2:40

I. Couldn't see myself falling into

2:42

the got On the surface I

2:44

would think that someone who's there

2:46

to professionally rak your back is

2:48

literally.on earth. But I think I

2:51

first caught a with that chiropractor's

2:53

were generally thought of as scare

2:55

me on the show friends. You

2:57

know that episode where Rachel's dad

2:59

comes to visit and he's a

3:01

real hard ass and he's being

3:04

super hard on Ross her boyfriend

3:06

and Ross's only able to win

3:08

him over when they're able. To

3:10

bond over their shared loathing of

3:12

chiropractors. I'm thinking that their bullshit.

3:15

But. There's a lot of stuff like

3:17

that you know of wellness treatments,

3:19

arm promise to do things sometimes

3:21

that big may be probably can't

3:23

really. Folie Deux, I can get

3:25

on board with a certain amount

3:27

of suspending your disbelief as long

3:30

as nobody is exploiting any one

3:32

are putting any one in danger.

3:34

But of course. Tends

3:36

to get there and weirdly, in

3:38

the field of chiropractic, it has

3:41

gotten there and beyond. I really

3:43

had no idea until I started.

3:45

looking into the overlap between the

3:47

holistic while this community and the

3:50

anti vax conspiracy theory communities and

3:52

sisters to flattering to call at

3:54

a community during whole the times

3:57

that paraplegic his home much cold

3:59

here than I ever thought. It's

4:02

an industry that was literally invented

4:04

by a self-proclaimed prophet

4:06

type who claimed to perform

4:09

miracles on the disabled and

4:12

now the field has morphed to

4:14

be full of these power-hungry kick-top

4:16

clout chasing quacks who both resent

4:19

medical doctors, villainize anyone who

4:21

questions their practices, but also

4:24

calls themselves doctors proudly. I'm

4:26

speaking generally here. There are some good

4:28

apples. We're gonna meet one later in

4:31

the episode, but there are more than

4:33

a few chiropractors out there who think

4:35

they can heal people's diseases with their

4:37

literal hands. Some of them have arsenals

4:40

full of bullshit medical textbooks and weird

4:42

devices that would give L. Ron Hubbard's

4:44

Scientology emitter a run for its fucking

4:46

money. Sometimes these quacks

4:49

accidentally give people a damn stroke. Sometimes

4:51

they start anti-vax new-age empires that go

4:53

way off the deep end. It gets

4:56

bad, but also they

4:58

do actually really provide people with

5:00

pain relief here and there, I think. Some

5:02

people swear by them. I'm gonna

5:04

give a little bit of background before we get into

5:07

my interview with my guest host today, and then

5:10

we're gonna hear from Trevor Zierke,

5:12

who is a chiropractor himself but

5:14

also publicly super critical of his

5:16

own profession. He's gone

5:18

viral for calling out culty

5:21

and scammy chiropractors. Trevor himself

5:23

acknowledges that the industry is low

5:25

to your cult. It's just a question of

5:28

how bad is it. So let's give

5:30

some stats before we get into the

5:32

truly bonkers

5:35

cult-like history of the chiropractic field.

5:37

I'm Gonna

5:42

start by quoting some stats from an

5:44

LA Times article titled, So, In a

5:46

way, that's all you need to know.

5:48

But According to this article, in 2017,

5:50

the American Chiropractic Association estimated that there

5:52

were. The

6:00

early seventy seven thousand Chiropractors in

6:02

the Us who treat more than

6:04

thirty five million Americans every year.

6:06

Chiropractor's whole thing is the spinal

6:09

column. They use what is called

6:11

spinal manipulation and of the to

6:13

manipulation is a part of a

6:15

profession already red flags and getting

6:17

but they use something called by

6:20

manipulation to manually like put your

6:22

body parts back into place and

6:24

restore a sense of balance allegedly

6:26

to the body to help it

6:28

heal naturally. If. You're confused by

6:31

my description here. There's a reason

6:33

for that. you will get more

6:35

clarity fortunately from my guest host

6:37

Trevor layer of but also the

6:39

reason is confusing is because every

6:41

through practice has a kind of

6:43

different ideology about with the practice.

6:45

eaten is what it can achieve

6:47

and that's all the already because

6:49

so much of it is so

6:51

disconnected from sex but it doesn't

6:53

answer to get truly scary for

6:55

me until we dive deep into

6:57

the origin story of the car.

6:59

prefer to. Create. The

7:02

inherent chiropractic profession is largely

7:04

credited to a dude named

7:06

Daniel David Dd. Palmer. He

7:09

was born in eighteen forty

7:11

size P was a professional,

7:13

magnetic healer, so take that

7:15

as he will. He was

7:17

a spiritualist, and he claims

7:19

that the entire series for

7:21

the Chiropractic field team see

7:23

him during a sale where

7:25

he was able to get

7:27

in touch with the spirit

7:30

of a doctor named Jin

7:32

Atkinson. Who had been

7:34

dead for sistine? Palmer

7:39

basically claims Loki out of

7:41

nowhere that ninety five percent

7:43

of all disease is due

7:46

to subluxations. Essentially, Palmer was

7:48

saying that miss a vertebrae

7:50

suck with your energy flow

7:53

and causal And from the

7:55

very beginning, Chiropractic was basically

7:57

a marriage of bone said.

8:00

And it is spiritual magnetism that

8:02

he had been practicing which might

8:04

sounds cuckoo bananas, but it really

8:06

launched a movements. In the beginning,

8:08

Palmer actually considered chiropractic kind of

8:11

religion and Nineteen Eleven. He said

8:13

that the practice and I quote

8:15

must have a religious had one

8:17

who is the founder as did

8:19

Christ Mohamed and others who sounded

8:22

religions. I am the fountainhead. It

8:24

must be said, chiropractors don't go

8:26

to medical school, they're not licensed

8:28

to practice medicine and. In the

8:30

early twentieth century when huge progress

8:33

in medicine was being need antibiotics

8:35

were becoming a saying. it was

8:37

a huge time. The medical community

8:40

was like hey, we're on to

8:42

something here. Chiropractic is bullshit. It's

8:44

a threat to the real science

8:47

that we're doing. You suck it.

8:49

Let's lock Bees wax on are

8:51

literally. If you're like chiropractors such

8:54

you prison In nineteen sixteen a

8:56

chiropractor name's tullius rat lives like

8:58

next name was sentenced. To ninety

9:00

days in jail in California for

9:03

practicing medicine without a license. Chiropractor's

9:05

were charged with violating the medical

9:07

practice Och. There was huge publicity

9:09

surrounding this. At the height of

9:11

the public controversy, Four hundred and

9:13

fifty Chiropractor's were arrested. But

9:17

by then, a lot of people

9:19

liked the benefits that they were

9:21

getting from Terror Proctors. They didn't

9:23

want our favorite Cracked Daddy's to

9:25

be in jail. So then in

9:27

nights and twenty two Californians voted

9:29

by an overwhelming majority to license

9:31

the profession. So all of the

9:33

chiropractors you were still in jail

9:35

were pardoned. Every state had a

9:37

version of this battle. Like Chiropractors

9:39

emerged the winners every single time.

9:41

As you can imagine, the American

9:44

Medical Association, which had always kind

9:46

of been. The field of chiropractic mean

9:48

Nemesis. They were pissed they were not ready

9:50

to give up trying it. He chiropractors them.

9:52

So get this. The. American Medical

9:54

Association had this clause that

9:57

prohibited members from consulting with

9:59

practitioners. The practice is and

10:01

I quote based on an exclusive

10:03

dogma. After this whole era of

10:06

chiropractor's getting arrested in than part

10:08

in than winning case after case

10:10

after case, the profession was growing

10:13

and growing so and Nineteen Fifty

10:15

Seven, The American Medical Association explicitly

10:17

is called upon this clause to

10:20

forbid consultations with Chiropractors to ban

10:22

them. Actually, the And A was

10:24

even quoted as calling Chiropractor's and

10:27

unscientific cult this a desert a

10:29

bag as the mountains but the

10:31

shit taxpayers In Nineteen Seventy Six

10:34

Size Chiropractor's brought a lawsuit against

10:36

the An Aids and eleven years

10:38

later after a long and costly

10:41

litigation the Us District court in

10:43

Illinois sound the A I May

10:46

and many of his associates guilty

10:48

of conspiracy against Iraq rafters and

10:50

in violation of Federal antitrust laws.

10:53

That meant that the A A

10:55

May was forced to cease and

10:57

desist. To this day, Chiropractor's I.

11:00

Think some of them has a bit

11:02

of a chip on their shoulder. Super

11:04

protective of their reputations. Super litigious,

11:06

to the point that the medical establishment

11:09

and even journalists are sometimes like,

11:11

you know what? bro? Never mind, These

11:13

chiropractors are not worth the trouble. Just

11:15

let them have their little alleged

11:17

cold. And all the while,

11:20

chiropractic patients freaking love it. According

11:22

to an article in the Journal

11:24

of the American Medical Association titled

11:26

Chiropractic Origins, Controversies and Contributions, studies

11:29

that compare patient satisfaction with chiropractic

11:31

without of conventional medicine in treating

11:33

low back pain demonstrate a marked

11:36

preference for chiropractic. But here's the

11:38

thing. Chiropractors are not out here

11:40

just saying. I can crack your

11:43

bones and make a lower spine

11:45

feel better. Thera you're making all

11:47

kinds of colby. Claims and in

11:49

some cases, building massive culti empires

11:51

based on a field that was

11:54

sounded by a cult leader is

11:56

ah The Good Doctor goes. Allegedly

11:58

allegedly allegedly list the legend hits

12:00

bananas So we're gonna need to

12:02

hear more about what is going

12:05

on with the Cult of Chiropractic

12:07

From someone who knew from the

12:09

inside, the crappy, the classy, and

12:11

the just plain wacky. Please welcome

12:13

my special guest. Hosts it A

12:16

chiropractor extraordinary. And chiropractic critic

12:18

Trevor. There's. Managers

12:26

from searched. Online.

12:33

I graduated from school in Minnesota and twenty

12:35

twenty one some are newly into the Colts.

12:37

I guess you could say I'm kind of

12:39

more like a Mofo get into that us.

12:42

Love that! Also, you're one of many people who joined

12:44

a cult. the pandemic. Yeah as Sunday it.

12:46

Was a call to guilty time. Can you

12:48

talk a little bit more about what drew

12:50

you into the schools? So I was

12:52

doing with an injury I saw. you know I

12:54

need help with it. Wish I go to earth.

12:57

Medical seats are factor. saw them sauce and we

12:59

felt like that be a pretty cool job down

13:01

the road. The newer ones you some form of

13:03

healthcare or something anyway and had to decrease of

13:06

surprises in the past so I just went into

13:08

it. kind of blind to those. My only real

13:10

experience with his peas. One or two chiropractors who

13:12

are actually pretty good will dive more into and

13:14

sort of spectrum but there and a good and

13:17

dry saw. Gonna win a blinds. You're looking

13:19

at me like I'm gonna like said earlier

13:21

face off for I'm not like the thing

13:23

is I wanna believe I wanna believe so

13:26

badly as yeah so I'm not going to

13:28

force you to convince the but like I'm

13:30

just saying I'm not going and like the

13:32

dad and that one episode of friends the

13:34

like hi Rob Rak as a quack like

13:37

I guess I'm going in as a new

13:39

it's as possible. Know in seats so did

13:41

I and so at I went to school I

13:43

was pretty drunk as my exclusive very limited and

13:45

then I got to school and I realized oh

13:47

this is a lot crazier than I thought and

13:49

a lot deeper and deeper than I was imagining.

13:51

but I was on in there and as delights

13:53

when I could do this I just as fuck

13:55

up the past and here I am. okay

13:57

what were some of the first call the

13:59

red flags that you notice in chiropractor college?

14:02

Yeah. So for reference, my background was in

14:04

sciences and my undergraduate degree was in x-ray

14:06

physiology. So when I went to school and

14:08

they started making generalized claims and stuff, I'd

14:10

be like, man, that sounds kind of crazy.

14:12

I wonder if there's any sort of evidence

14:14

or stuff to support that, and I would

14:17

look up and I'd be disappointed. Because there

14:19

was none. I'd be like, huh, that's

14:21

interesting. Because a lot of people were saying these

14:23

things almost like they were concrete facts. And there

14:25

really was no research to back up a lot

14:27

of the claims. Like what? So a lot of

14:29

it just boils down to when people think of

14:32

chiropractic, right? They think of the back cracking and

14:34

the neck cracking. Oh, yeah. A lot of people

14:36

call that the adjustment. And a lot of the

14:38

claims with how it was able to fix this

14:40

or cure that, there's not a whole lot of

14:42

research data that says that that's true. But looking

14:44

up and I was like, that's kind of weird.

14:46

So they were really saying that

14:49

in school. Because it's like when

14:51

I see a chiropractor online say,

14:55

oh, this adjustment can, I don't know,

14:57

help with bowel inflammation or whatever it

14:59

is. I like to think like, oh,

15:02

maybe that person is just overhyping themselves

15:04

to build a following. But I'm hearing

15:06

that it's kind of built into the

15:08

institution. Totally. And this is why it

15:11

gets weird and very confusing. And everyone in

15:13

this world knows it. But I think people

15:15

outside don't. The chiropractor

15:17

profession is really like there's a governing body

15:20

that kind of washes over everything. But after

15:22

that, it really splits into all these sort

15:24

of subsections. And it kind of boils down

15:26

to what school you attend. So the school

15:28

I attended is actually more on the science

15:30

and spectrum. So they were making claims that

15:33

would help with normal things like you think.

15:35

If you come in with back pain, gain

15:37

adjustment, that would help. Actually, the data on

15:39

that's pretty conflicting. It kind of does, kind

15:41

of doesn't, who really knows. The claims you're

15:43

talking about, the wild ones, where it's like,

15:45

I have IBS, what should I do? Get

15:47

your neck adjusted. My school personally was not

15:49

pushing a whole lot of that stuff. However,

15:51

there are several, and unfortunately, some of the

15:53

biggest schools that talk about just that. It's

15:55

not crazy or stuff. So depending on what

15:58

kind of school you go to, totally. And

16:00

that's where it's always like when I see

16:02

the chiropractors, I feel like I know exactly you're talking about

16:04

when you say stuff like that, like TikTok and stuff or

16:06

YouTube. And then making these claims, I

16:08

can just tell that they were kind of raised

16:10

in a different path than I was.

16:13

And I always was like, well, did they actually believe that?

16:15

Or is that just what they were told at school? So

16:17

now they do believe it. Well, I mean, I

16:19

know you're talking about chiropractors and health

16:21

and wellness, but the way that you're

16:23

describing the way that the belief systems

16:25

branch off, it sounds like you're talking

16:28

about a religion. One hundred percent,

16:30

which if we get into the history of it, you'll

16:32

see that's like kind of the point. Speaking

16:34

of the history, I would love to

16:36

hear about the background of the chiropractic

16:39

field from your perspective and in your

16:41

own words. Dee Dee Palmer, he

16:43

was Daniel David Palmer. He lived in Iowa,

16:45

in Davenport, Iowa, which is important because that's

16:47

where like the first chiropractic school popped up.

16:50

And the story goes of how he discovered

16:52

or sort of started chiropractic was he was

16:54

working in some office and I think it

16:56

was a janitor complained to him or had

16:58

mentioned he had some sort of like here to pamper

17:00

him. Dee Dee, at the time, a healer sort

17:03

of theorized that it was from some

17:05

misalignment in his neck and he did what

17:07

he called the first ever adjustment and voila,

17:09

that guy could hear. So

17:11

the story goes. It's very much Jesus

17:14

curing the blinds. One

17:16

hundred percent. So that starts up chiropractic. He eventually

17:18

opens up his school in Davenport, Iowa called Palmer

17:20

chiropractic school, which is still this day of school.

17:22

I think it's one of it's either one or

17:25

two in terms of like the biggest chiropractic schools

17:27

that are out there. He founded

17:29

that. It goes through a big,

17:31

big snake journey of like his son gets involved and

17:33

they try to like take over and do all sorts

17:36

of stuff. But the big thing was it got

17:38

a lot of pushback from obviously the

17:40

medical community where like, hey, this guy

17:42

is not he's saying he's practicing medicine.

17:44

It is not medicine. So he actually

17:46

at one point tried getting it viewed

17:48

as a religion instead of health care

17:50

so that it could have a little

17:53

bit more leniency. Oh, my God. Right.

17:55

It explains a lot when you hear

17:57

stuff like this. Seriously, The

17:59

way he sort of. On It School and it was

18:01

sort of founded on my two stories and his

18:03

beliefs. There's a lot of parallels for scenery like

18:06

it's kind of crazy. Like every time I say

18:08

i don't think about it too much to my

18:10

son of Zeus, but different. I'm reminded of them.

18:12

is crazy like T Actually Dd Palmer wrote his

18:14

little book on his theories and Gleason Power Practical

18:17

Comic. a little Green Book or something like that

18:19

isn't and all the students at For Sarah Palmer

18:21

and at other schools have to learn it. It's

18:23

I'm such a little mini bible. You learn a

18:26

new, study it and it's all his words from

18:28

Hundred Plus Use the oh My God. Right

18:30

like it didn't really get updated at he

18:32

gets ingrained in you early as a chiropractic

18:34

studio like oh, this must be true as

18:37

or sausage and I would say that's where

18:39

the profession is kind of split or divided

18:41

right now and I would like to explain

18:43

it. I thought spectrum right? Yeah, wireless spectrum

18:45

is like normal. Size

18:48

of Method Research Reply with the car

18:50

Best practices in dictator like that. That's.

18:53

Unfortunate minority. That's why I like to think that

18:55

I sighed on that side. And. The other

18:58

side effect of his exact when she described

19:00

they still fall Dd principles from one hundred

19:02

plus years ago To see they don't question

19:04

it, they don't care what sort of research

19:06

comes out, they know in their heart of

19:08

hearts that are pressing work for Excellency. Yeah,

19:10

no matter what it says which is crazy.

19:13

Will Yeah, it's crazy because it paves

19:15

the way for like since seriously sinister

19:17

figures to come in and be like,

19:19

look at everyone else who knows this

19:22

to be true at now. I can

19:24

take it to the next level and

19:26

will talk about some of those figures

19:28

later. but I mean it makes so

19:30

much sense that there is this beef

19:33

with in the chiropractic. can be easy

19:35

considering it's sort of like dogmatic. we

19:37

will origins. it's like of course there

19:39

is gonna be tense and and conflict

19:41

there as they're always isn't. Religious

19:43

communities. But could you talk

19:46

about the beef between the

19:48

Chiropractor's and the traditional medical

19:50

community? Because my understanding is

19:52

that like they got into

19:54

it legally and the American

19:56

Medical Association eventual he had

19:58

to like. The and desist

20:01

on cracking down no pun intended. On

20:04

Chiropractors. Yeah you know someone like myself when

20:06

I hope people I want to be incorporated

20:08

and like a current health care model where

20:10

we collaborate with other people write a biased

20:12

or for some into an empty or as

20:14

to work with the no physical therapists or

20:16

anything else like that. I wanted the of

20:18

the do that whereas others subsection chiropractors they

20:20

want to be the sole treatment option there.

20:22

He said he wanted you chiropractic they'll wanna

20:24

do this other stuff in a wanna help

20:26

our you know send them to other people's

20:28

up which is wild. And. Very fortunate

20:31

in kind of scary physical. Dear

20:33

Than that's. right? It's kind of always

20:35

gets drawn back. Like that initial thing

20:37

where where that side of the spectrum

20:39

they do. You know, the American Medical

20:41

Association transat them down. They don't want

20:43

chiropractic so it's like an Us versus

20:46

them saying he said of our everyone.

20:48

Collaborative. Thing Yeah, okay so can

20:50

use hot just a little more logistically

20:52

about what qualifications you need to say

20:55

like I'm a chiropractor, I can adjust

20:57

you and I can do that without

20:59

getting sued. Yeah, absolutely. So the

21:01

license We have the Dc. So Doctor

21:03

of Chiropractic. This work is Kerry. Sometimes

21:06

be really doctor know your typewriter. Do

21:08

I explain This has been like you

21:10

know the survivor definition with wasteland like

21:12

ah, physical therapists are sometimes referred to

21:14

as doctors. They also have a doctored

21:17

of physical therapy. So technically speaking it's

21:19

appropriate call the doctor. However,

21:21

I myself and and all lot of other

21:23

chiropractors new purpose don't like you That titled

21:25

has a lot of people in today's society

21:27

to see a doctor as medical doctor you

21:29

don't want to get that uses differently. Got

21:31

it. So it's lakes. You don't

21:34

want to confuse any wine or

21:36

risk stripping power or meaning. Away

21:38

from the word doctor right? But technically are

21:40

degree as a Doctored of Chiropractic we are

21:42

in that through a graduate school program three

21:44

to four years time depend on where you

21:46

go we have board exams we have like

21:48

and sir Fi curriculum and stuff that's overseen

21:51

by a national board of chiropractic examiners It

21:53

it's all legit on that and I myself

21:55

went to undergrad first sight of for you

21:57

degree and and I did additional three years

21:59

I. I saw that. I'm say that

22:01

the most normal route but it is like

22:03

a real is very good. Lord is the

22:06

real program like a thrill is rigorous like

22:08

it. It's not like anyone can just walk

22:10

in and do it but at the same

22:12

time we don't have a set residency program

22:15

like the O's or and these as. We.

22:17

Don't as a super strict curriculum like if

22:19

you go to any sort of medical school

22:21

kind of what are covered in there and

22:23

were and stuff they cover it is all

22:25

pretty similar far as is more so based

22:27

on what the board exams are going offer.

22:29

they teach to out there since pass an

22:31

exam and that only comes to. Diagnose

22:34

the in anatomy but it doesn't actually

22:36

cover like the methods and you know

22:38

sort of the treatment spectrum that people

22:40

do. That's kind of up to the

22:42

university and that's again where you see

22:44

that divide is different from school to

22:46

school and ten. A group To group that shit you

22:48

can come up in. Well it's all

22:50

really clicking for me as I there's like

22:53

so many chiropractor upon some. he gets collect

22:55

and and crack and for. The

22:58

field fundamentally started as this. Savior.

23:01

Complex situation like I'm in a

23:03

wave my hands of even heal

23:05

the deaths So like, no wonder

23:07

if those highfalutin promises are still

23:09

president because that's how it started.

23:11

As and like if you're someone

23:13

who experiences incredible pain that you

23:15

haven't been able to find a

23:17

treatment for, Whether a chiropractor can

23:20

actually help you are not if

23:22

they're saying that they are and

23:24

hundreds of years of chiropractors before

23:26

then have also said yes, I

23:28

can help with the seal and

23:30

the American. Medical Association has been forced

23:32

to like back off and be like

23:34

a the chiropractor as we can't cover

23:36

them anymore says like of course people

23:39

are gonna leave them when the only

23:41

person saying i can heal your pain

23:43

as a chiropractor. right? The whole Professen

23:45

system is like weird gray area. Exactly right

23:47

to that. I wanted to sound like you

23:49

know the Governing Board of Chiropractic doesn't do

23:51

the job to they do with their the

23:53

real only job is just to prevent the

23:56

general public from getting hurt. But in terms

23:58

of like chiropractors saying, you know this. Just

24:00

they can help these things, which may be

24:02

it probably can't. It's a gray area where

24:04

they don't necessarily have liked the evidence or

24:07

cocky proves that they can intervene a creates

24:09

this weird muddied water sort of thing where,

24:11

like you said, it's it's it's. kind of

24:13

depends on a lot of people's beliefs. Yeah,

24:16

and a lot of these chiropractors. The.

24:18

Very persuasive that good sales this and stuff like

24:20

that and can sort of amp the belief up

24:22

even more so and that's how it's gonna be

24:25

this big thing. And not to mention my good

24:27

friend Aaron isn't an cool all he makes a

24:29

lot of content Addison would I do where it's

24:31

you know the real side of chiropractic has the

24:34

joke that to talk and set the progress know

24:36

chiropractic back a hundred years because now says the

24:38

police but then they also have the very quick

24:40

Bdsm are of like while I cracked sounds really

24:42

cool oh. My God I am so

24:45

susceptible to that. I fall for

24:47

that into science and guide or

24:49

had sex acts. The let's talk

24:51

about this like how has the

24:53

chiropractic profession gotten courtier over the

24:55

years? thanks to Social. Media Conference has

24:57

a scary thing where it looks really cool

24:59

is very flashy. We love a

25:01

snap crackle paths. Are easy though

25:03

admittedly amped up to one hundred where people

25:06

have like their professional podcasting. Mike's right there

25:08

like least gotten so flashy. you know you

25:10

take someone who didn't even know they're watching

25:12

his evernote some point in time has cracked

25:14

their back and.other pope pretty good bright and

25:17

then he to see video some doing it

25:19

really well. it makes a very loud pop

25:21

like wow I bet that don't really good.

25:23

what do you know nothing about and whatsoever

25:25

you're already like enticed. Oh. Yeah, one

25:28

hundred percent. Also, because I think

25:30

there's so many things going on

25:32

for small, we love instant gratification

25:34

and that is what the sound

25:36

provides. I objectively if I like,

25:39

put on noise canceling headphones feel

25:41

equally good when I stretch and

25:43

when I crack my that, but

25:45

I am so much more satisfied

25:47

when I hear the classics. Totally

25:51

a decent place, human nature to lot

25:53

the instant gratification right. Even go get

25:55

your back cracked as they wait five

25:57

minutes, right? Yeah, arguably if you did

25:59

that verse. That he when did like you

26:01

know and I see on the classic relaxing

26:03

meditated the last for forty minutes if I

26:05

feel better. But those forty minutes and like

26:07

he described your back in my twenty seconds,

26:09

that's the drawn to it right? Totally. I'm

26:12

also thinking Lake, we are so

26:14

sort of simple and predictable. As

26:16

humans, we always think that something

26:18

new is more impressive. It makes

26:20

us want to do it again

26:22

and again. I think even with

26:24

language like bear with me here,

26:26

how plosive consonants, the ones that

26:28

sounds almost like crack slick, and

26:30

the sounds found in curse words

26:32

like they're fun to say in

26:34

the same way that cracking is

26:36

fun to hear ya in excess,

26:38

feel like we're actually making something.

26:40

Been. In the World which is a drive

26:43

that I think his legs really base us and

26:45

really easy to weaponize. Yes exactly. It

26:47

also is reminding me right now,

26:49

so much of the Tic Talk

26:52

Therapy and Instagram therapies cultish this

26:54

because similar to the field of

26:56

chiropractic, there are not a lot

26:59

of checks and balances and behavioral

27:01

health. Yeah, you can light promise

27:03

that he Ndr is gonna cure

27:05

your trauma and affleck a real

27:08

method. but also you could treat

27:10

someone with something totally unsubstantiated. crystal

27:12

therapy? whatever. And the you can't

27:14

get sued for malpractice for like.

27:17

Trying something out that doesn't work? It's

27:19

like, well, we tried, you know, and

27:21

there's nothing to say that we didn't

27:23

have pure intentions. No one is gonna

27:26

hold you accountable for that. Were always

27:28

shooting in the dark. It's It's still

27:30

like a fairly new practice, so it

27:32

makes sense that there's so much room

27:34

for cultish, nurse and chiropractic and mental

27:37

health, right? And that's where it gets hard

27:39

when I thought about that minutes you videos

27:41

about you know carpeting, speed scammers and like

27:43

sort of gamy tendencies and it's always difficult

27:45

for me because I don't know these people

27:47

personally and I truly think maybe in their

27:49

her partner believe so as not being the

27:51

best possible think for this person although building

27:53

a dune as hers crack interact and her

27:55

neck and they think that's an awesome but

27:57

if it didn't work they just say exactly.

28:00

The Iguana. you know I tried my best in

28:02

I think if we stick to it will keep

28:04

going but then also it's been two years have

28:06

you seen a chiropractor two times a week? Every

28:08

single week A are no better to waste of

28:10

money in August time by you have on the

28:12

opposite end you have some people who got help

28:14

who they're now believers of chiropractic and are the

28:16

ones to be nice no to go and like

28:18

it'll it'll work and so it's super super slow

28:20

unlike. Other my say so myself the

28:22

last season of the next see Him

28:24

documentary on H B O the vows

28:27

were. There were a couple people coming

28:29

forward who had tourette's who were talking

28:31

about how some of the next Cm

28:33

courses like really cured them or help

28:35

them in meaningful ways and you can't

28:37

tell them that their truth isn't there

28:40

truth you can't tell someone like know

28:42

you're not better And those few people

28:44

who are like preaching miracles their voices

28:46

travel far especially on. Sex Act. Glad you

28:48

said that. Is that like an important thing to

28:51

this? where people get mad at me? my tonsils

28:53

on a long to chiropractor not feel better? It's

28:55

like and totally I'm not. I'm not saying that

28:57

like mad at all, but it's currently nearly impossible

29:00

for us to tell if you got better because

29:02

you saw the chiropractor? Are you got better because

29:04

it's been eight weeks and my take your back

29:06

to. It's impossible.

29:08

It's like you say, you can't tell the people

29:11

who are like warm, a backup or upstart are

29:13

pretty tense. Whole doesn't work like in Canada Dead,

29:15

but we just don't know which one of those

29:17

things. Worked in a makes a really hard to

29:19

go against that. I work with people who are

29:22

in pain for a long time. It's such a

29:24

debilitating things that did When they get out of

29:26

pain it's like this holy shit like oh my

29:28

god the whatever with this work. it's amazing. I

29:30

wanted so every wanted the best thing ever and

29:32

increases really strong rid of police that most colts

29:34

are built on. Say exactly exactly I mean

29:36

I feel this even when there's like a

29:39

T V show that I love them like

29:41

everybody has to drop what they're doing and

29:43

water right now. and if you don't like

29:45

it there something wrong with you. This is

29:48

like that that dialed up to and eleven

29:50

because we're talking about physical and emotional. To

29:52

sort of. If

30:00

you are enjoying this episode on

30:02

the cult of chiropractors, I really

30:04

think you might enjoy my new

30:07

book, The Age of Magical Overthinking

30:09

Notes on Modern Irrationality, which is

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30:51

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30:54

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31:23

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31:27

this book doesn't feel that dissimilar to

31:29

listening to a podcast. But if you

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31:52

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32:01

on modern irrationality. And for behind

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the scenes on my publishing process

32:05

including the book cover design process,

32:07

the titling process, updates on my

32:10

forthcoming podcast, Magical Overthinkers, and to

32:12

find out what sounds like a

32:14

cult episode is dropping a day

32:16

early, feel free to check out

32:18

my newsletter at amandavontel.substack.com. Would

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33:26

so you are yourself on TikTok. Can

33:28

you talk about like your journey on

33:30

social media? I mean, you did have

33:33

one pretty viral video where you said

33:35

that 99% of the chiropractic

33:37

profession is a scam. I

33:39

started making videos because I opened up my own practice

33:41

right out of school because obviously as we were talking

33:43

the way I sort of practice know people looks a

33:46

lot different than most chiropractors but because I opened it

33:48

up I had really no way I had no money

33:50

I was fresh out of school I was like how

33:52

do I market well I was like well TikTok's free

33:54

I think I can make videos so I started making

33:56

videos and I would always get comments you'd be like

33:58

well you're a chiropractor you know shock not and

34:00

I would say no do you like listen to me

34:02

like I'm saying like hey I don't really trust my

34:04

profession that much but then I just started doubling down

34:06

with it I was like hey well you know I'll

34:08

make a few videos like poking fun at what chiropractors

34:10

do something is hilarious and who has better insight than

34:13

someone on the inside totally that's why you're the mole

34:15

yes exactly so those certain really resonant so like well

34:17

they're kind of fun because I think it's fun too

34:19

because I see again I live with this shit all

34:21

the time like I see these crazy claims and I'm

34:23

just like that's total BS why is no one calling

34:26

out on it so I was like well you know

34:28

this gives me an opportunity to actually call that out

34:30

educate the general public so that you can hopefully not

34:32

fall for that and go from there and now it

34:34

turns into everyday on tiktok I'm tagged in like you

34:37

know two or three crazy chiropractor videos and people are

34:39

like what are your thoughts on this what are your

34:41

thoughts on this which is fun I really do enjoy

34:43

it because I think it's important someone did a study

34:46

on this when they were looking at like the top

34:48

sort of trending things on social media I think it

34:50

was specifically tiktok chiropractic was like the number three most

34:53

viewed topic on tiktok it's

34:56

made for social media it's like

34:58

pressed down on someone's back here

35:00

an explosive snap crackle pop what

35:02

more could you want well scrolling

35:04

in bed rotting it's never been bigger

35:06

and like more exposure but then at the same time

35:08

like that what you just described like if you have

35:11

no clue what you're looking at you saw it you're

35:13

like what did I just watch was that like literally

35:15

Jesus cracking someone's back like do I do I try

35:17

to make videos to like like

35:20

educate people be like hey this is what it

35:22

is this is what it doesn't do this is

35:24

what we maybe think it does you know go

35:27

accordingly there's something about the actual physiological

35:29

thing that happens when you watch a

35:31

cult documentary that's so similar to the

35:33

physiological thing that happens when you watch

35:35

back cracking videos or even like to

35:37

some degree of pimple popping videos or

35:39

earwax removal that's my shit we're like

35:41

it is horrifying but you cannot look

35:43

away and there's a part of you

35:45

I think this is why cults are

35:47

alluring and cult documentaries even are alluring

35:49

because there's a part of you that's

35:51

like I want to be in that

35:53

person's shoes I want to get

35:55

the shit cracked out of me totally

35:57

and I think with with chiropractors what's funny is it's

35:59

like such a low barrier. Like you don't have to like

36:01

sell your soul to her like you just have to go

36:03

in and get your back cracked and you go in you're

36:06

like oh that felt kind of good like maybe I'll start

36:08

going like once a month maybe I'll start going once and

36:10

it's like just and then before you know it you're going

36:12

all the time. Yeah oh my gosh okay

36:14

I want to ask two sort of complementary

36:16

questions. One is what are some of the

36:18

most ridiculous culty claims that you've seen chiropractors

36:21

make online? Okay there's a whole lot

36:23

and I'll try to cover like the ones

36:25

that I think are the most outrageous and

36:27

the most common. The first being that chiropractor

36:30

adjustments can help with anything that isn't what

36:32

we call musculoskeletal. So meaning when people say

36:34

like it helps with ADHD it helps with

36:36

like the common one which unfortunately is like

36:39

people tell parents that adjustments

36:41

or chiropractors can help with their

36:43

kid's autism and stuff like that

36:45

like wild wild claims like that

36:47

are like way more prevalent than I would like

36:49

to admit. Like it's not even just like one

36:52

or two bad apples it's like there's a

36:54

good amount of chiropractors who talk about things

36:56

like that or hormonal balances can be affected

36:58

by adjustments and stuff like that. Those

37:00

are like oh it's just my biggest ones

37:02

and to the point like which is very

37:05

bad it's very bad and very sad is

37:07

I saw one fairly large practice nationwide that

37:09

actually on their website claims they're pretty sneaky

37:11

with it but they don't actually claim it's

37:14

a cancer treatment but they put it

37:16

as an alternative option for chemotherapy and

37:18

then they were talking about why oh

37:21

my god crazy I would love

37:23

to make a video on them but they're very big and have a

37:25

lot of money and I'm afraid of getting sued but some

37:28

of these claims are insane and

37:30

again it's like to the cult

37:32

behavior is the people in those organizations are in

37:34

that in that part of chiropractic don't really think

37:37

twice about it because they're just like yeah no

37:39

I believe it could work like look at all

37:41

the reason needs that they have from the past

37:43

that to believe it's true. For sure and

37:45

we're not inclined to believe that

37:47

the miracles we've sunk hours weeks

37:49

years hundreds of thousands of

37:51

dollars in are not true. Absolutely. So

37:53

then my next question is like I

37:55

guess the worry is and you mentioned

37:58

That the sort of larger governing. Body and

38:00

the chiropractor community is trying to

38:03

prevent actual harm of preparing for

38:05

this episode I are like a

38:07

read a bunch of stories of

38:09

people like having a stroke, thera

38:11

like being recommended a medicine by

38:14

a chiropractor that didn't work for

38:16

them may be killed them and

38:18

that carelessness caprices this in common

38:20

with sort of like woo savior

38:23

stuff has from what I've seen

38:25

as lessening the pandemic years really

38:27

is bolstered the sort of the

38:29

anti. Science Anti Vax, New

38:32

Age Can Spirituality community. And

38:34

I was wondering if you

38:36

could talk about the overlap

38:39

of the Chiropractor/new Age Anti

38:41

Vax Borderline conspiracy. Theory World.

38:43

Yeah totally. I I really do. I can

38:45

enhance. I'm glad you brought that up to

38:48

buy think the waves are the popularity rise

38:50

of popular entire project his hand in hand

38:52

with just like naturalistic views right? That's kind

38:54

of seeking over like a lot of our

38:57

culture nowadays, especially in America. Modern Science. Can

38:59

we really trust them? You know what? Go

39:01

back to receive everything as natural carapace. it

39:03

is just with their hands. Naturals can be

39:06

as I shall lead marketed by like so

39:08

many of the of the car practice. on

39:10

that side is that it's you, not the

39:12

natural. Altered Which don't get me wrong, I

39:14

agree with to I think there's you know,

39:16

some overstepping stand in places like spine surgery

39:18

and stuff like that were made the medical

39:21

community and and to inclined in the past

39:23

two. It's others like all think there's some

39:25

partial truth that they stand and then they

39:27

build all these other crazy crazy messages off

39:29

the top of it. But it's gotten to

39:31

be this point. Where are you people are?

39:33

Believe in Chiropractic to do a lot more

39:35

suited because they wanted to be to write

39:37

they wanted to be true that we can

39:39

do the national altered astronauts and some medicine

39:41

n And you know, Big Pharma. Right until

39:43

July. Twenty Twenty Twenty Twenty One was like

39:45

the perfect storm for chiropractic because tic toc

39:47

are big and then he authored the cove

39:49

It on top of this is of suspects

39:51

like it's on a momentum for that audience

39:53

of people. Totally yeah. I talked about one

39:56

chiropractor in my book called is this guy

39:58

Joe Descends I know you've heard. I

40:01

know a few people in my

40:03

life who caught worship this guy.

40:05

He's a marketing genius who has

40:07

really like built himself up as

40:09

a wellness spiritual guru. Yeah, actually

40:11

now them talking about him. I

40:13

want to kind of make an

40:15

example out of this guy's So

40:17

for those who haven't heard of

40:19

Joe to Spencer, he's the sort

40:21

of like a generic looking middle

40:24

aged white dude who has millions

40:26

of social media followers who sincerely

40:28

trust him as their new age.

40:30

Sage. They claim he's helps

40:32

them manifest everything from their

40:34

dream job to their spouse

40:36

to their chancery mission. He

40:38

offers workshops and retreats and

40:41

public speaking engagements and corporate

40:43

consultations and guided meditation. C

40:45

D's Guess books his Instagram

40:47

Bio at the time that

40:49

I was reporting on him

40:51

for coltish read researcher of

40:54

epigenetics, quantum physics and Neuroscience.

40:56

He would proudly flaunts Studies

40:58

in Biochemical Sciences at Rutgers.

41:00

He claimed to have done post

41:02

graduate training in and I quote

41:05

Neurology, Neuroscience, brain function and Chemistry

41:07

at Cellular Biology memory formation, aging

41:09

and longevity. But his energy is

41:11

like very, very Scientology The L

41:14

Ron Hubbard for the modern day.

41:16

He's so good at sort of

41:18

like marrying an academic sounding language

41:21

with paranormal language and a huge

41:23

portion of his following sound him

41:25

on social media so they're not

41:27

doing necessarily like a deep digging

41:30

are questioning. his rhetoric but

41:32

dispenser never graduated from rutgers

41:34

he has no phd he

41:36

does have a chiropractic degree

41:38

from a school in georgia

41:40

called life university was i

41:42

love but his web presence

41:44

genuinely makes him look like

41:46

a neuroscientist more problematic than

41:48

all of that still though

41:50

is that joe to censor

41:52

has been allegedly see connected

41:54

to with a controversial new

41:57

age cold cold ramsar so

41:59

the run the School of

42:01

Enlightenment is like a bullshit,

42:03

new age Hogwarts. They offer

42:05

lessons in subjects like telepathy

42:07

and clairvoyance. It was founded

42:09

in the late 80s by

42:11

this self-proclaimed ESP master and

42:13

proud Trump supporter named Jay-Z

42:15

Knight, who has been quoted

42:17

spewing all kinds of QAnon

42:19

rhetoric and just like generally

42:21

bigoted vitriol. So Joe Dispenza

42:23

is linked to this group

42:26

and yet he is this

42:28

cult followed, of course, chiropractor.

42:30

And I'm wondering like he's been able

42:32

to build an empire,

42:34

which is damaging for sure

42:37

because it can affect politics

42:39

and people's real health and

42:41

bodies and minds. But I'm

42:43

wondering what you

42:45

think is like the absolute worst that

42:47

has ever happened from the chiropractic field

42:49

so far and how bad could it

42:52

theoretically get? That's a good question. I think

42:54

the worst case scenario is the unregulated part

42:56

just gets to be so, so, so popular.

42:58

Like it's more popular than most people think.

43:00

I fear that it gets to be the

43:02

point that it's, you know, like someone's sick,

43:05

like, oh, I should go to see a

43:07

doctor and so I'm going to the hospital,

43:09

they go see this chiropractor because like there's

43:11

gotten to be this thing following with that.

43:13

That's like my biggest fear in

43:15

terms of, you know, where it could go. Whenever

43:18

I see a doctor influencer on

43:20

Instagram, who's like scarily good at

43:22

social media, like too good at

43:25

social media, doing like all the

43:27

TikTok trends, like dancing with the

43:29

stethoscope. It's always a fucking chiropractor.

43:33

I had, I made a comment about

43:35

this one because it was like mid

43:37

2020 when that First wave of

43:40

COVID people were like, you know, what is this

43:42

thing? Do we really need the vaccine? And There'd

43:44

always be like once a week, there'd be this

43:46

new doctor, you know, Facebook headline doctor comes out

43:48

and says COVID, you know, is fake. I think

43:50

that's the point that in my head, I see

43:53

it and I would know within five seconds, like

43:55

that's a car. God damn it. That's not a

43:57

doctor. That's a chiropractor. And it was every time.

44:00

Know why that is? It's it's a

44:02

weird phenomenon, sad that me and my

44:04

friends and colleagues service off. but it's.

44:06

A Cd palmer of twenty Twenty

44:08

Four. Do totally and it draws his as

44:10

a you mentioned before were like this like god

44:13

complex same you're saying that that Dd Palmer

44:15

obviously had like it's still draws some those

44:17

people like sometimes because there's like a gratification

44:19

or a feeling of like let's see myself like

44:21

a help someone get on a pain like

44:23

all. Wow that's awesome. Like I feel good

44:25

about myself and gonna get like this little

44:27

high. some of these people dislike love that and

44:29

they want more of that and he gets

44:31

to their head to the point the daylight

44:33

I literally as you mean people with my

44:35

hands oh my god yeah name's Rod That personality

44:37

of people who are susceptible to. Say that

44:39

sort of high and they wanna believe that more than

44:42

anything else And then we need sounds a belief. Like

44:44

he said, it just makes an even stronger to. They're

44:46

fighting against it so aggressively and and has doubled down

44:48

on. My God it is a perfect

44:50

storm. It's like the origins of chiropractic

44:53

combined with just like American capitalism combined

44:55

with maybe a personality disorder combined with

44:57

that totally legitimate hi that you get

45:00

from helping someone combined with covered in

45:02

ticked off boom Of course, Chiropractic as

45:04

a call. A bit so that. Yeah, I

45:07

might fare fucking an athlete as of

45:09

I was in excruciating back pain and

45:11

it takes fucking two weeks ago, the

45:13

doctor's appointments and here's a chiropractor with

45:15

an amazing it tic tac accounts being

45:17

like i'll help you know mile, Who

45:19

can blame a person. Dude, that's my thing,

45:21

I do. they have people. would I make these? Anti

45:23

terrorism isn't that he goes viral and south and I'll

45:25

get a lot to combat. Oh my gosh Ago when

45:28

Sakara two items of Super Bowl was like I use

45:30

and I feel bad are all right rally of I

45:32

didn't know any better I would feel exactly these are

45:34

cowards like the alternative is I just have to sit

45:36

with this for weeks and might maybe I'll get some

45:38

help but often Not because you know Senator and the

45:41

ways clinics in South America run as you see demonise.

45:43

Well we'll send you to someone else without can be

45:45

two months on line or you can go see this

45:47

guy down the road and he's in a cracker. back

45:49

tomorrow and. Like it's probably. I feel pretty good. And

45:52

maybe you'll go viral. That's the crazy thing.

45:54

like whenever I see you tube videos where

45:56

it's like as always a hot girl who's

45:58

like asses in the thumbnail. I could

46:00

do an entire podcast on just that

46:03

topic itself. Those guys have just figured

46:05

out the algorithm on YouTube to a

46:07

tee, and it's just like attractive girl

46:09

in skimpy clothing on a chiropractic table.

46:11

Million views. Easy. Million views. Being

46:13

like whipped around by some dude.

46:15

It's like a porn set up.

46:17

It's ridiculous. It's so bad. Like

46:21

some of them are so, and it's like the thumbnails and

46:23

the titles that they'll use are just like, it's outrageous. And

46:26

again, this is where it's like so funny is

46:28

like that's gotten so popular. But at the same

46:30

time, like these same people are like, we want

46:32

to be taken seriously as doctors and healthcare providers.

46:35

It's like, do you like, you

46:37

cannot have both. Like my family's

46:40

general practitioner is not uploading like

46:42

big booty thumbnails. Yeah. Could

46:44

you imagine like your general like medical

46:47

doctor being like only fans model gets

46:49

her naked. And he posts it to

46:51

YouTube like that. Oh

46:54

man. Yeah, they really want their cake

46:56

and eat it too. That is cult

46:58

leader behavior. Okay, so then my last

47:00

question is just how can people who

47:02

are interested in seeing a chiropractor do

47:04

so without accidentally joining a cult? Good question

47:06

and easier said than done. I know we all

47:09

want instant gratification like we talked about but just

47:11

do a little bit more research on

47:13

them. And that's why I really try to make like my

47:15

videos like I'm trying to come out with like a lot

47:17

more series in terms of like red flags to look out

47:19

for, you know, a chiropractor when you put

47:21

their Yelp page or their Google page. Like what

47:23

you're looking for just if you can go in

47:25

and see someone and not get any treatment the

47:27

first time just sort of list the way they

47:29

talk you're just going to want to be looking

47:31

out for the signs that we just talked about

47:33

of like the godlike savior of where like oh,

47:35

yeah, no matter what you say me like yeah,

47:37

we can totally help with that. You know, just

47:39

if it sounds too good to be true, it

47:41

probably is and just being really really skeptical like

47:43

I can't say that anymore. Just be super skeptical

47:45

of the person you're seeing because there are some

47:47

good ones. That's why I hate like sort of

47:50

the negative Side of me making this is people didn't think

47:52

like well all chiropractors bad. I was like, well, that doesn't

47:54

make sense because I still practice and I like to think

47:56

I'm pretty good and I have a lot of colleagues and

47:58

friends who do great work as well. But

48:00

it it's There's so many bad ones out

48:02

there that it makes it really hard for

48:04

me to even recommend people go see chiropractor

48:06

unless they do a lot of research forehand

48:08

and seen the person. I mean back to

48:10

religion or reminds me of like catholic priests

48:13

is like yeah they're mostly scary the you

48:15

could probably find a nice one of these

48:17

like hundred and other businesses. That way you

48:19

know systems probably good but you know the

48:21

other ten they might such even. Always

48:25

my odds with that innocent simulate i don't

48:27

really like your eyes and said the most

48:29

part. But we need people like you

48:31

in the field to balance out the

48:33

zebra zoo because the one. That's what

48:36

I thought that the got. yeah. Cool. Okay,

48:39

now I want to play a

48:41

quick to him that I just

48:43

invented. It's called Whack My! That's

48:45

because I cannot get over that

48:47

wordplay of black and cracks. But

48:49

that title of the game has

48:51

nothing to do with the rules.

48:53

I just couldn't help myself. Since

48:55

I you play, I am going

48:57

to name three and you're going

48:59

to have to guess which one

49:01

allegedly youth according to a blog

49:03

posts from a website called Riddle

49:06

Wellness So city with the results,

49:08

Which of these three celebrities. Allegedly

49:10

his credit's everything. So

49:12

there's a chiropractor. Oh

49:15

organising. A three round Okay

49:17

the first round is athletes which

49:19

one credit everything to the. Chiropractor.

49:22

Simone. Biles, Serena Williams or

49:25

Tiger with. Ominous. A

49:27

Tiger Woods because I know he's had lots of

49:29

back injuries. sod assume he's probably to the chiropractor

49:31

at some point. You're absolutely correct. Well

49:33

done you know reserves even Game

49:35

was interesting cause I came across

49:37

so many fascinating articles about like

49:39

a lawsuits are Chiropractic adjustment gone

49:41

wrong? It's and I was looking

49:44

of the relationship between chiropractor's and

49:46

sports teams and most sports teams

49:48

have like an official chiropractor although

49:50

there are like certain athletes who

49:52

refuse to work with anyone but

49:54

a certain chiropractor for probably other

49:56

reasons we've discussed but I it's

49:58

on several article. from earlier

50:01

this year relaying the news story

50:03

that this one chiropractor was sentenced

50:05

to almost three years in prison

50:07

for defrauding

50:09

the NBA. He defrauded these NBA

50:11

players health and welfare plan of

50:14

over a million dollars. Holy.

50:17

I've heard of a few stories about the defrauding.

50:19

Usually it involves like insurance companies, but to do

50:21

it to an NBA team is bold. Really bold.

50:23

That's incredible. Yeah, he made all these

50:25

like fraudulent invoices. I'm telling you it's

50:27

like it's the ego. Like you think

50:30

you can just get away with anything.

50:32

Totally. Okay, next round which of

50:34

these celebrities allegedly owes everything to their

50:36

chiropractor? Leading Ladies Edition. Is

50:39

it Pamela Anderson, Liza

50:41

Minnelli, or Jane Fonda? Oh,

50:43

it's gotta be Liza, yeah. You're

50:45

right. Okay, while I was researching

50:48

this round, I saw

50:50

that the family of this

50:52

former Playboy model settled out

50:54

of court with a chiropractic

50:56

practice because their daughter, the

50:58

Playboy model, had gone for

51:01

treatment and died of a

51:03

stroke after an adjustment and her family

51:06

sued for wrongful death. What is with

51:08

the strokes? I've been seeing a lot

51:10

of shit about strokes after chiropractic. Totally.

51:13

So it's a thing. This is

51:15

like the most hot topic among chiropractors themselves

51:17

because it's a known thing. It's happened and

51:19

just to give you like a quick 20-second

51:22

synopsis of how it happens. It's when they

51:24

do the neck adjustment, you have obviously arteries

51:26

that go from your heart up to your

51:28

brain. It goes to the neck. That motion

51:30

of like the rotated and snapping can sometimes

51:33

put pressure on those arteries. And if someone

51:35

does a really aggressive adjustment or with someone

51:37

who is maybe more, has a condition that

51:39

makes them more susceptible to

51:41

their arteries being, you know, weaker or

51:44

susceptible to, we call it dissection, that can

51:46

cause a stroke. And so why it's a

51:48

hot topic is that's very serious, obviously. Like

51:50

it can end in death. Yeah, yeah, so

51:52

scary. Super serious stuff. It doesn't happen

51:54

that often. There's been research on it. It's

51:56

like literally up there with like one in

51:58

a million right around. on that range so

52:00

it doesn't happen that often, but it still happens,

52:02

right? It's still like for the potential reward, like,

52:05

are you really want to risk that? And I

52:07

talk about that a lot. Like I try to

52:09

make people very informed that that's a thing. Right.

52:11

And to the point that I don't actually adjust people's necks

52:13

very often, like, unless they really, really want it and they

52:15

have a history of the, like, yeah, no, it's fine when

52:17

I do it. I mean, I've got to screen them. Then

52:19

I will. But otherwise I don't for that reason, because I

52:21

just don't think that risk

52:24

aways the reward. Oh my

52:26

God. I've even like let massage therapists like crack

52:28

the fuck out of my neck. I got to

52:30

stop doing that. I don't want to throw this.

52:32

Like, I don't want to scare people when I say that.

52:34

I just want to make you like, that's a thing that

52:37

can happen. Right. And if you've had, you know, experiences in

52:39

the past where it's like, Oh, it's been totally fine. Cool.

52:41

But it's more so these, a lot of people go in

52:43

and see a car parker and they don't do like a

52:45

thorough cause they're trying to feed as many people as possible.

52:47

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Capitalism plays a role in this. They're trying

52:50

to see as many people as possible. They're going to be

52:52

pretty lackluster on the screening and I've missed some signs that

52:54

like, Hey, maybe I shouldn't, you know, with this girl's neck

52:56

around like crazy, but they do it anyways and it can

52:58

end and stuff like that. Oh my

53:00

gosh. Wow. Okay. Last round,

53:03

which of these problematic male

53:05

icons credits everything

53:07

to their chiropractor, Arnold

53:10

Schwarzenegger, Joe Rogan or

53:12

Elon Musk? Oh, this

53:14

one's soft. See this one. I

53:16

have a little background cause I know Joe Rogan

53:19

actually hates chiropractors. I don't know if he hates

53:21

him, but he's made it on his podcast where

53:23

he talks about he doesn't like that because that

53:25

was always funny cause chiropractors hate that, that video,

53:27

even though I think it's very funny. So it's

53:29

between Musk and Schwarzenegger. Boy, that stuff. I'm

53:31

going to say Arnold because I can't

53:33

see Elon admitting someone else helped him.

53:37

You are absolutely right. You won the whole

53:39

game. Well done. Yeah. Give

53:41

yourself a round of applause. But

53:44

this is so nuts about researching this

53:46

is I was looking up Elon Musk

53:48

because I was like, Oh, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

53:50

Who are people in that similar category

53:52

of celebrity problematic male icons? Let's see

53:55

if Elon Musk has a relationship to

53:57

chiropractors. And he does get this according

53:59

to an. Atlantic piece called

54:01

Elon Musk's anti-Semitic apartheid-loving

54:03

grandfather. Musk's

54:06

grandfather was a Canadian chiropractor,

54:08

this guy named Joshua Haldeman,

54:11

and his biographer, Walter Isaacson,

54:13

wrote a whole book about

54:15

the guy, described him as

54:17

the source of Musk's obsession

54:19

and affection for danger. He

54:22

called this guy a daredevil adventurer.

54:24

He held quirky conservative populist views,

54:27

and he was also a radical

54:29

conspiracy theorist, a racist, an anti-Semite,

54:32

and an anti-Democrat. I mean a lot

54:34

of those just touch base with a lot of the chiropractors

54:36

we've been talking about, right? The

54:38

track. A lot of boxes. Yeah, well,

54:40

Elon Musk, spawn of chiropractor

54:42

cult leader. He's not the most

54:44

surprising thing in the world. No,

54:47

it wasn't number one on my list, but it might have been

54:49

like, you know, 54. Okay,

54:51

so now I'm going to ask you the ultimate

54:53

question that we always ask at the ends of

54:56

every episode of Sounds Like a Cult. The

54:58

cult of chiropractors, do you think

55:01

they're a live your life? A

55:04

watch your back? Or

55:06

a get the fuck out level cult? I

55:10

think it's a watch your back. Literally,

55:14

literally it is a

55:16

watch your back, and hips and

55:18

shoulders and neck. I don't think it's

55:20

quite get the fuck out unless

55:22

it's, you know, really, really bad, right? And

55:25

again, like red flag alarm should be going off if it's really, really bad. There's

55:28

enough good, you could be in

55:30

excruciating pain, physically, mentally, emotional. And

55:32

if you can get a little bit of help here and

55:34

there from a relatively low risk option for the most part,

55:36

like I think it's a pretty good thing. Like, there's not

55:38

a lot to worry about as long as you're not buying

55:40

into it. Right. So, you know, in culty

55:42

terms, I think you can have a little bit of Koolaid, but

55:44

you know, I don't want you chugging out at all the time,

55:47

right? Like you can have a little bit every now and then.

55:49

One or two a week. Probably

55:51

a little much. Honestly, that sounds like it's not a lot, but

55:53

in a chiropractic case, we're going once or twice a week. Probably

55:56

too much, you know, once a month just for the

55:58

vibe. Yeah. That's cool. Like, you

56:00

know, I'm fine with that. Amazing.

56:03

That's such cogent advice. Yeah, I'm gonna

56:05

take your word for it. Watch your

56:07

back. Watch your quack. Well,

56:10

that's our show. Thanks so much for listening.

56:12

Stick around for a new cult next week,

56:14

but in the meantime, stay culties. But

56:17

not too culties. Found

56:25

by The Cult is hosted and produced by

56:28

Amanda Montal and edited by Jordan Moore of

56:30

the podcast, and theme music is by Kasey

56:32

Cold. This episode was made with

56:34

production help from Katie Epperson. Thank

56:37

you as well to our partner, La Think Coli.

56:39

And if you like the show, please feel free

56:41

to check out my book, Word Slut, A Feminist

56:43

Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Pulpish, The

56:45

Language of Phonoticism, and the forthcoming

56:47

The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on

56:50

Modern Irrationality. If you're

56:52

a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really

56:54

appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and review on

56:56

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57:17

you.