0:04

Sup. Hi.

0:08

You know, I have, I have, I have a question for you. Okay.

0:13

Why are you so awesome?

0:16

My parents. That

0:25

sounded rehearsed. So

0:29

Malcolm, tell me, how

0:31

awesome are they?

0:32

Dad told me to say it.

0:41

No, but seriously, uh, no,

0:44

I get a lot of compliments on you. Um.

0:47

I don't know. I'm

0:47

just this way.

0:50

Yeah. Yeah. I get it from.

0:54

Early ages, you know, uh, they

0:56

would just be like, Oh, he's, he's such a nice

0:58

kid, you know? And, um,

1:02

in the teenage, in the teenage years, especially,

1:05

because that's a, that's a time when

1:08

parents and children

1:10

tend to butt heads the most in

1:12

their teen years. And

1:15

I feel like we did that age

1:17

11. It was

1:20

like your, your

1:22

time where you were the most angry with

1:24

us. And then it was like, after that,

1:26

I mean, we had occasional arguments and stuff, but

1:28

we have, I think we've had a pretty good relationship,

1:31

um, overall, but, but

1:33

yeah, I get a lot of compliments on, um,

1:36

what a good person you are.

1:38

Yeah. I think, I think 11 was around the

1:40

time that I was starting to get

1:42

into. More violent

1:44

stuff like yes, that's when

1:46

I really started getting into video games. You should clarify

1:49

it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah

1:52

More violent, so I was on the sidewalk

1:54

burning ants Throwing

1:57

rocks through people's windows But

2:01

you guys just wouldn't let

2:02

me No,

2:05

you did you did you started to get more into

2:08

like the first person shooter Video games

2:11

and um... I remember

2:13

having to write a paper to you guys about...

2:15

Oh my gosh, I forgot about that! If I could uh, play

2:17

Halo or not. I

2:19

totally forgot about that because

2:21

yeah, we were really nervous about that. You

2:23

know, that was, it's a, it's a difficult transition time

2:26

for a parent, right? Like giving you a little bit more independence

2:28

over what you think you can consume and then also just you

2:30

know, it's a difficult transition time for a parent, right? Like giving

2:32

you a little bit more independence over what you think you can

2:34

consume and then also just Being exposed

2:36

to more things that,

2:39

you know, that are negative, right? Yeah.

2:42

And, um, we were very

2:44

afraid because your, so your friends

2:46

had Halo, right? And you wanted to play.

2:49

Um, cause I know you didn't have

2:51

it at the time.

2:53

I only had a computer. Yeah. You

2:55

didn't have like a system of any kind or anything, right?

2:57

Yeah. Because you did have a PlayStation

3:00

when you were younger, but that got stolen.

3:02

Um, yeah. And then, uh, I

3:04

think. Dad downloaded all the games

3:06

I had on the PlayStation 2 Steam

3:09

on my computer. Oh, that's right. Because I just, I

3:11

loved the Lego Star Wars games. Oh,

3:13

yeah, you did that, but you did a lot of Minecraft.

3:15

Even then, in general, I didn't, no,

3:17

even in Blacksburg, I didn't really play

3:19

much Minecraft.

3:21

I felt like you did a lot in Blacksburg,

3:24

but it was when you were starting to get into it, I think.

3:26

I

3:27

think it was, it must have been the year before

3:29

we moved back here that I was getting into

3:31

it. Because at first I didn't like Minecraft. Oh,

3:34

really? Yeah, because Dad tried showing

3:36

it to me. And like everything that

3:38

Dad tried to show me when I was little, I decided

3:40

I didn't like it because Dad was trying to show me. Of

3:42

course. So... That's how it works.

3:45

Yes.

3:46

Um... Yeah. Yeah. But we were really

3:48

nervous about that. And so, yeah, it

3:50

was your, actually your dad's idea, which is funny since

3:52

I was the English teacher. And he was like,

3:54

you need to write us an essay about why

3:56

you should be able. Do you

3:59

even remember what was

3:59

in it? I, yes, actually.

4:02

Really? Um,

4:03

I don't. Cause I know it wasn't

4:05

like, because I want to. I remember actually looking

4:07

stuff

4:07

up too. Really? Yes. Probably

4:09

the best research you ever did for a paper.

4:13

That's definitely not true. Um,

4:16

but I, it was just like, Uh,

4:20

basically talking about how it's not very,

4:23

like, gory at all, which,

4:25

I mean, now you've played Halo, so you know,

4:27

it's, it's, it's birthday balloons and streamers

4:30

when you shoot a

4:31

grunt. Yeah. Um,

4:34

and then there's, it's also just like, you see little flashes

4:36

of blue or red. Yeah.

4:38

It's not like, yeah, it's not like

4:40

a horror movie where, you know, it's like,

4:42

entrails,

4:43

blood, guts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

4:46

Um, I remember

4:48

that being a big point because I knew that you guys

4:50

didn't like violence at all. Gore,

4:52

yeah. Um, and

4:56

I think it was also just like, I was talking

4:58

about how it's high fantasy, like it's like

5:00

people in space fighting aliens.

5:03

Like it wasn't. Oh yeah, it wasn't like people. It wasn't like boots

5:06

on the ground. Yeah. Shooting other people. Yeah.

5:10

Wasn't, I feel like, I don't know if this

5:12

was in your paper, but I remember you making this

5:14

point a lot as

5:16

a teenager. Um,

5:19

which was, uh, that

5:22

studies have shown that it's the video

5:24

games don't make a person violent. Yes.

5:27

Yeah. I remember, I don't remember if it was in

5:29

that paper. I still make that point now

5:30

because people still think that's the case.

5:32

Yeah, because I think it's all largely

5:35

because of the, the Columbine shooting,

5:37

because those, that was one of like the

5:39

very first, um,

5:44

it was the first major. Uh,

5:46

school shooting perpetrated by the student,

5:49

uh, and they were really into those games, and

5:52

so, you know.

5:53

I, I even, there was another shooting at one point

5:57

where it

5:59

was proven that the person

6:02

had somewhat,

6:04

on occasion, played Call of Duty.

6:08

That, it's, correlation is not causation.

6:10

And I was like, yeah.

6:11

They have less hours in

6:14

Call of Duty than I

6:17

do in Call of Duty in

6:19

like a week. Right, yeah.

6:21

What? I don't, I

6:22

don't understand. Yeah, I mean video

6:24

games are not going to magically make

6:27

your child violent. No, it's not. You know,

6:29

I could see how it would let, actually

6:33

interestingly, I feel like I

6:36

think some people think, well, if they already have violent tendencies and

6:38

then they're doing this, it's going to make them want to go out and do

6:40

it in real life, and I could see maybe

6:42

an argument for that, but there's also the possibility

6:46

that having an outlet

6:48

like that might prevent someone from doing,

6:50

you

6:51

know. Actually, um, video games are used

6:53

for therapy now, both

6:55

physical and mental. Um,

6:57

I mean not stuff like Call of Duty, but they

7:00

do have it as an outlet or a way of

7:03

even keeping your mental cognition

7:05

healthy because video games

7:07

can engage part of your brain that keeps

7:09

you, your brain young and healthy. So

7:13

it's used to battle dementia. Oh,

7:15

wow. Um, uh,

7:21

yeah, so

7:23

video games have also been used to

7:25

cure small time diseases.

7:29

Like you have a disease, you play a video game and you're cured?

7:32

Yup, magically.

7:34

No, there is this game where, um, people

7:36

could like actually, uh,

7:39

it, first of all, there was like the main

7:41

part of the game where you could like solve

7:43

things that have already been solved with combining.

7:47

Um, I don't know if it was molecules or genomes

7:49

or something together. Oh. And

7:51

then there was one, there

7:53

was literally just a, um, like

7:56

game mode of the game, where

7:58

it's just all the stuff that scientists

8:00

are currently working on, or things that haven't been

8:02

proven yet. And because you have...

8:05

Like, tens of thousands of people playing this game,

8:07

you had tens of thousands of people trying

8:10

to solve all of these things, and they solved a bunch of

8:12

them. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. Well,

8:14

there's a

8:15

whole... And they're just video game players. Like, they

8:17

were scientists, they were, like, they're just...

8:19

You know, if you tap that right

8:21

part of someone's mind... Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,

8:24

there's, and there's a theory, uh,

8:26

a pedagogical theory, uh...

8:28

About using basically

8:31

games, uh, video games,

8:34

other games, uh, as a way

8:36

to help people learn. Yeah. Cause it keeps

8:38

them engaged, they're, they're interested

8:40

and yeah. So, so

8:43

anyway, so just

8:45

thinking about that period of time, it was, it

8:47

was a rougher period of time

8:49

for us, but it still

8:51

is not nearly what I've seen some other

8:54

people go through and, and

8:56

we also. Have

8:58

had a good relationship intact and

9:01

a couple people that they're like, you know I'd love to

9:03

hear you guys talk about is you know

9:05

your relationship and how you've maintained

9:07

that and how So, you know,

9:10

um, so

9:12

yeah, so anyway, I just thought maybe

9:15

we could explore that a little. And I just want to put

9:17

a little disclaimer on here that

9:20

like I have, Don

9:22

and I have had some strong

9:24

thoughts on. How we wanted

9:26

to raise Malcolm and, um,

9:28

we're very proud of how he's turned out. But

9:30

I don't think I have all the answers and I have also made

9:32

a lot of mistakes. So, uh, by no means

9:35

do I think I'm a perfect parent.

9:38

And Malcolm will

9:39

tell you all of them right now. But

9:41

by no means do I think I'm a perfect parent. But

9:43

if, if anything can help

9:45

anyone think through. Stuff, then.

9:48

Sure. Let's share

9:48

it. I mean, the, there's, there's always

9:50

the prejudice, not, not prejudice. That's

9:52

definitely not bias not the right word. Bias. Bias, yeah. No,

9:55

definitely. Prejudice, no. Uh,

9:58

there's nothing bias that plays into it. Like, you would

10:00

not let me watch any horror

10:02

things. No. Whatsoever. No.

10:04

Um, no. Which, I mean, you saved

10:06

me from a very boring genre,

10:09

so thank you, but... Oh,

10:12

I'm fighting words with Shelby.

10:15

Well, honestly,

10:17

I mean, there is a thing where I, I, I don't

10:19

like horror, um, but...

10:23

It was also, I

10:25

wanted, your mind was still growing

10:27

and I wanted to like, protect

10:29

you from nightmares and stuff, you know?

10:31

Yeah.

10:32

So... Haha, I had nightmares anyway.

10:34

Haha,

10:36

joke's on you mom.

10:39

Welcome to having depression when you're too

10:42

young for a kid that should have depression.

10:45

Well, um... And

10:48

there probably was a bit of bias in there

10:51

because for me,

10:53

because I, that

10:55

kind of stuff sits with me. Right. So, I mean,

10:58

you know, my Jurassic Park story,

11:01

like, you know, I saw Jurassic

11:03

Park when it first came out in the theaters and,

11:06

um, when that, it,

11:10

yeah, it was very startling to me. And,

11:12

um, after

11:14

I saw it, I had nightmares about dinosaurs.

11:17

Uh, I still went on to watch the other two

11:20

of that original trilogy, but like

11:22

I had, I had nightmares about dinosaurs

11:25

for like a really long time. And also

11:27

like this idea that these like scientists

11:29

did all this stuff and

11:32

I'm like, they could bring them back. They could bring them back.

11:34

And I was just like, yeah. So throughout the years

11:36

I would have different, different nightmares about dinosaurs.

11:38

But more, um, less,

11:41

less ridiculously speaking, uh,

11:43

I would get. You know, horror

11:45

things, especially if they were more in like the spiritual

11:48

realm, would just like sit with me for

11:50

days and freak me out and like, and

11:52

I didn't want that to happen to you.

11:54

Yeah, no, I'm totally, it's

11:56

so separated in my mind. I

11:59

think it's because I just, I like.

12:03

I definitely keep different worlds

12:05

in my brain for everything.

12:07

Like, I'm like, ooh,

12:10

like, I never accidentally mix,

12:13

um, canon. Like,

12:17

I'm never like, oh, this was actually

12:19

in Star Wars, not in Halo. Like,

12:22

I, I am very good at separating

12:24

stuff and keeping things in

12:26

conjunction. Like, I, and I have a, In

12:29

my mind, I have our world as

12:31

its own thing and what continuity

12:33

our world follows, which

12:35

there are somehow plot holes in

12:37

our world. Don't know how that works, but,

12:40

um, uh,

12:46

plot holes in reality. Yes.

12:48

I mean, it's true. Yeah. But,

12:51

um, I think another

12:54

reason that, like,

12:59

Wow, we've stayed so connected and

13:02

things don't really sit with me

13:05

or bother me is like, you guys always

13:07

have just answered my questions. Like

13:09

you guys have never been because I said

13:11

so people.

13:13

Oh my gosh, but we, but I have to tell the story.

13:15

Yeah, go ahead. Go for it. Because,

13:17

yeah, so that was, that was a parenting

13:19

philosophy a lot A lot of people are like, what

13:22

are you doing? Uh, cause I

13:23

don't understand that. I'm like, why, why are people

13:25

surprised because people buy into the basic,

13:28

the basic ideas, authoritarian parenting,

13:30

like that's just kind of like the fallback.

13:32

Authoritarian stuff is the reason why our world

13:34

is so fucked up. Well,

13:35

amen. So,

13:38

um, yeah, so we didn't

13:40

want to be those authoritarian parents

13:42

and I would say I wasn't there right away. Like

13:44

in my mind I was just like, well, you're the. You're

13:46

the kid. I'm the parent. You do

13:48

what I say. And I also had some anger issues

13:51

earlier on, so I wasn't perfectly

13:53

in this right away. But by the

13:55

time you were three or four, maybe,

13:57

um, yeah. And so

13:59

we would, we would let you

14:02

ask all the questions. We would answer

14:04

your questions. We never did the,

14:06

Because I said so. We never were like, Malcolm,

14:09

you have to do it. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, until

14:11

we finally, the whys,

14:14

the why questions got to be way

14:16

too much one day. And finally, I don't

14:19

remember which one of us, what it was.

14:21

We're just like, you know what, Malcolm, because I said

14:23

so. And you paused and you

14:26

thought, and you go, is

14:29

that a good answer for you? Because

14:31

it's not a good answer for me.

14:35

Yep. It's true. It wasn't

14:37

a good answer. I mean, fair.

14:40

But I just, I loved that reaction

14:42

because it was, it was just so,

14:44

so funny and, and fair. Like,

14:47

that's not a good reason. You

14:49

know.

14:50

I think it was that on

14:52

top of the, uh, not letting

14:54

me win thing. Oh, I

14:56

think we have to explain that a little bit. Oh, well,

14:58

yeah, you guys have never, have

15:00

never let me win. You

15:03

would, you would dance around on

15:05

my loss. When

15:08

I was five. So I

15:14

know. Actually, I think that was mostly dad. When

15:16

you,

15:17

I don't know, when

15:18

we played air hockey. Oh, that's true. You turned

15:20

into She Hulk.

15:23

But no, when we, well, when you were

15:25

like a baby, you know, we'd be just

15:27

like pretend, you know, like if you were trying to throw

15:29

something in a basket, then we might help it over and be

15:31

like, Yeah, you know, like, you know, do that

15:34

kind of stuff. But yeah, when we started playing

15:36

games. We would give you tips

15:38

and stuff to help out. Like, oh, Malcolm,

15:40

maybe you want to do this or whatever, but

15:43

we would never just be like, oh, you get to win.

15:45

Here you go. You know, we're

15:48

like, I win,

15:49

sucka. But yeah, I think because

15:51

of the never saying, because I told you so,

15:53

and always letting me win, you guys

15:55

always... Always letting you win, not letting you

15:57

win. Always not letting me win.

15:59

So, not letting me win. Um,

16:01

you guys invited me. No, maybe

16:03

not invited challenge is the right word,

16:05

but like you guys didn't shy

16:07

away from it So I was never a kid to

16:10

like hide my Disagreements.

16:14

Oh, yeah, I'm aware So

16:17

are many of your teachers Yeah,

16:23

so I feel like I Learned

16:25

a lot more than some

16:27

kids might have about things because I think some kids

16:29

might just like sit in

16:31

their own logic, and

16:34

not get proven otherwise. Whereas

16:37

I would get, um,

16:41

proven otherwise by you or dad. You'd be like, oh well

16:43

this is actually how it is. I'm like, oh.

16:45

Yeah, we also didn't shy away from giving you

16:47

like correcting you if you were like,

16:49

you know And then you guys also didn't shy away

16:51

from if I was right either right,

16:54

which is also good because if it was hard

16:59

Cuz you mean like, you know

17:02

when you're like seven year old is like Well,

17:04

wouldn't this, wouldn't it be this way? And you're like, yes,

17:10

I just got outlogged by a seven year old.

17:13

But like, I feel like, I wonder how many like

17:15

kids have said something like that to their parents

17:17

and their parents just. Tell

17:19

them that they're wrong, even though they're correct, just

17:22

to preserve their own dignity against their

17:24

own sepulchre.

17:24

Well, to preserve their authority.

17:27

And this is, I actually think this is a really,

17:29

really important, important thing.

17:31

Because, um, when

17:33

you're told with

17:36

authority that, you

17:38

know, this equals that. Like,

17:40

you know, uh, or

17:42

this is how you do this, or whatever. But

17:44

you're not given a reason why. At

17:47

some point, you're naturally going to

17:50

like seep out of that authoritarian

17:52

thing and go, well, what would happen if

17:54

I did do Y? You know, like,

17:56

And then you

17:57

become combative, rebellious.

17:59

Right, uh, because then you're like, well, you lied

18:01

to me. Yeah. You know what I mean? So

18:03

then, um, a child, a

18:05

teenager, or whatever, becomes really... combative

18:08

and disrespectful and, um,

18:11

uh, you know, like, well, you

18:13

always tell me not to do these things. I

18:16

mean, I think we even, I think we

18:18

even told you, Oh gosh, I remember

18:20

this. Sorry.

18:20

This is, we

18:22

just watched Hunger Games last night and this is sounding

18:24

like the plot to Hunger Games, the

18:29

authoritarian versus

18:30

the people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't,

18:32

I don't agree at all with this. Like just. This

18:35

is I decree it and that's it. Like there should

18:37

be conversation. There should be thought

18:39

processes and, um,

18:41

allowing your child to think is a good thing.

18:44

Um, what? I don't know.

18:47

But I remember we had, um, some friends.

18:51

Uh, our friends, when you were growing

18:53

up, whose, um, son

18:56

was addicted to drugs and

18:58

did, yeah, and did some,

19:01

some bad things, you know, like stole from

19:03

people and stuff like that to feed their habit.

19:06

And I remember you asking me about

19:08

like, Why do they

19:10

do drugs if it does these bad things,

19:12

right? Yeah, and I think some parents would

19:14

have been like well because they're a bad person, you know

19:17

Or because they have an addiction and just kind of

19:19

oversimplify it But we

19:21

told you... At least

19:21

the addiction is more on the correct

19:24

side.

19:24

That is, yes But we told you

19:26

because it doesn't feel bad at first

19:30

And we were like, when people first

19:32

start to take drugs, like,

19:35

it feels good. It gives them what's called

19:37

a high. And we explained it all to you.

19:39

And then we were, then we explained to you how addiction

19:41

works. And then we're like, and then

19:43

it, it gets bad. Like then it.

19:45

It becomes bad and it's, you

19:47

can't get away from it and it causes all of these

19:50

negative things. And so

19:52

I, I personally, I don't, I don't know if

19:54

you ever thought this consciously, if you're going to

19:56

disagree with what I'm about to say, but I

19:58

personally think that's why you never really

20:00

did anything like that because I didn't lie

20:02

to you and be like, Oh, drugs are bad.

20:05

Yes. And then your friends go, Oh no, drugs are good.

20:07

And you go, okay. Yeah.

20:08

Because I already know that there's. That's a good part

20:10

to them. That's what I don't understand about

20:12

cigarettes. There's just nothing good about cigarettes. I,

20:15

I, that's just, they,

20:16

they, Well, I think the people who smoke them feel

20:19

something, obviously. But. Really?

20:21

I

20:21

didn't think cigarettes gave you any sort of high.

20:23

I thought it was just, it tasted bad, it smelled

20:25

bad, and it was bad for your lungs. I,

20:27

I don't think it's a high. I've heard people say it relaxes

20:29

them. Oh, okay. Oh,

20:32

so it's like, smoke and a beehive. A beehive?

20:36

Yeah, if you, people will light

20:38

fires underneath the beehives because then the smoke

20:41

makes all the bees fall asleep and then they can get all

20:43

the honey out. I was

20:47

trying to figure out how someone would smoke a beehive.

20:49

And

20:51

then

20:52

I was like, is

20:54

this a different term for marijuana

20:56

that I haven't heard? I, I was

20:58

relating cigarette smoke.

21:04

And the calming effects of fire

21:07

smoke. Why would

21:07

someone do that? Okay, sorry.

21:13

That was funny though. Um,

21:15

okay, I guess that makes more sense. I'm so used to

21:17

things being like, oh, it makes you feel

21:20

really good or something. Um, but

21:25

yeah, I mean, I never

21:28

done drugs. I've, um...

21:32

I mean, I've, I've drank alcohol before, but

21:34

I don't drink alcohol. And

21:37

I don't smoke anything. I don't

21:41

inject anything. No. Um,

21:44

yeah, um, I

21:47

have to, I have to, I have to tell

21:49

you this. I just, you said about the, the

21:51

cigarette and this made me think, so

21:53

I was curious when I was younger about

21:56

cigarettes and,

21:58

um, my neighbor's mother, uh,

22:00

smoked. So

22:03

I knew how to like sneak into their house when

22:05

it was locked. So there was

22:07

one day I snuck in and I stole

22:09

a cigarette and

22:12

uh, I may have like borrowed her lighter

22:14

too or something. I don't know. And I got on

22:16

my bike and I rode like as far away

22:18

from the house as I could. And then

22:20

I, I smoked the cigarette

22:23

cause I was curious like what it was all

22:25

about. And it was really interesting

22:27

cause I remember thinking like,

22:31

I hate the smell of it. I really, really

22:33

hate the smell of it. And I really hate the stale

22:36

smell of it on people. Like when they

22:38

smoke in their house and then they go out and they're just, everything

22:40

smells like smoke. Um, but

22:43

in the moment, I

22:45

remember thinking that there was something I liked

22:47

about it, but I didn't understand what. And,

22:50

and I was just curious and that was it. I have never

22:52

smoked a cigarette again. But what's really

22:55

weird is every once in a while,

22:57

like, I will just get like a whiff of the smoke

23:00

and I'll be like, oh man, I want to smoke a cigarette.

23:02

It's so strange, but I've

23:04

only ever smoked that one. And

23:07

yeah, my, my, my stolen, my illicit

23:10

cigarette, but

23:12

yeah. Um, mom, I'll never find out.

23:15

I mean, besides you just telling her.

23:17

Oh no, it's not at the moment.

23:19

No, I don't know if I ever told her, but if

23:22

she's listening to this now,

23:23

she does.

23:25

Be careful where you go to Pennsylvania. It

23:29

might get sent to your room. Yeah. Yeah.

23:34

But anyway, but yeah, I think,

23:37

I think, uh, I won't,

23:39

I'm not going to lie. There were times it was really difficult,

23:42

um, being honest and open

23:44

with you and including you in decisions,

23:47

which we did a lot. Oh yeah, that's

23:48

true. That, I think that was honestly

23:51

also one of the biggest ones, like, um,

23:55

because the, I think the thing I

23:58

remember you, I definitely told you guys when

24:00

I was little was.

24:03

I hated being treated.

24:07

Like I was a little kid. Yeah. And

24:09

I think that was probably because you guys

24:12

always included me in everything that you

24:14

guys did. Hmm. And so

24:16

I somewhat knew the adult decisions

24:18

and stuff and I understood what you guys talked about

24:20

too at your table, but whatever,

24:24

I can even see you guys kind of like Grimace

24:28

at it, or be like, uh, when,

24:31

like, whatever person's house you're going

24:33

to, that they were like, Oh, Malcolm, you can

24:35

go sit at the kid's table, and I'm

24:38

like, and do

24:40

what? Right. I'm like,

24:42

be a kid. Man,

24:44

sitting at the kid's table was the most boring thing.

24:46

Oh,

24:47

trust me. I felt the same way when I was your age. I

24:49

was just like, I love to talk to the adults. I really

24:51

like to be in on the conversations.

24:54

I remember taking some adults off guard

24:56

talking to them as

24:57

well. Well, yeah. That

24:59

happened all the time. People are like, man, your son is, you

25:01

know,

25:02

he's remarkable. I

25:04

just talked normally. Like, I didn't think

25:06

it was anything... Like, it

25:08

was just... Like, I think you guys

25:10

had just always told me about stuff and had always

25:13

included me in everything, so I just, I knew

25:15

stuff. Like, stuff, like, the adult

25:17

world wasn't hidden from me because I, I

25:19

wasn't an adult.

25:20

Right. Right. Yeah. And,

25:25

yeah. And we separate. I, I think...

25:28

There's a couple things. One, we separate

25:30

generations a lot now. Like, there

25:33

used to be much more multi generational interaction,

25:35

I think, in the past. Um,

25:38

but, uh, two,

25:40

you also grew up around a lot of adults.

25:42

Like, because we

25:44

had people over at the house all the

25:46

time. Um, you know, we had,

25:49

um, our community of

25:51

people, we had, uh, we started

25:54

our Sunday lunches while I was

25:56

pregnant with you. So that was just a part

25:58

of your childhood was, you know, and plus,

26:01

you know, when your dad was... There wasn't

26:02

really any kids my age besides my

26:05

neighbor and other

26:07

kids were like significantly older than me.

26:09

So even they were more mature.

26:11

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You, um, you

26:13

fell in a weird time because

26:15

it was like... There was a time

26:17

when, um, all

26:20

the people we knew were having babies, and

26:22

then there was a period of time, and then there was you, and

26:24

then there was a period of time, and then there was all our friends

26:26

were having babies, so you're like just kind of like

26:28

on this island by yourself.

26:31

I was the only

26:31

kid and the, um,

26:34

and in that

26:36

gap. Yes, you were, yeah, pretty much.

26:38

And, and you know, when your dad

26:40

was the college pastor, um, you

26:42

had college students around all the time.

26:45

You know, um. Yeah,

26:47

and then even in Blacksburg, I played Ultimate

26:49

Frisbee with the College

26:51

Kid Club. That's right, you did. Um.

26:54

The College Kid

26:54

Club. The College Club. The College Kid

26:56

Club. It's still in my

26:58

mind since I was little. It's like, oh, this is like

27:01

the College Kid group. Right, yeah.

27:04

Yeah. But I think, and I think that

27:06

was really important to your, your

27:08

formation, you know, like

27:11

I've, I've heard that about language development, like

27:13

the more people you can expose your child

27:15

to, like more regular conversations,

27:17

they just pick up more words, you

27:19

know, um, that kind of stuff. And, um,

27:23

yeah, but we have this thing where we really want to separate

27:25

the adults from the children. And

27:28

we also, um, I think still

27:32

relatively prevalent in

27:34

our society is authoritarian parenting.

27:36

Now I think that's going away,

27:39

uh, every generation I think comes

27:42

up with different methods

27:44

of parenting, um, that are more like,

27:46

like I think there's one called gentle parenting right

27:48

now. Um, uh,

27:51

I have one, what?

27:53

Parenting. Yeah.

27:55

But see, though, a lot of people parenting would be the authoritarian

27:58

parenting. Um, and I think,

28:00

Oh, here,

28:00

good parenting.

28:03

But, but then what's that? You know what I mean?

28:05

Like some people were like, Oh, you're too, like,

28:07

you should just. They're very punishing,

28:10

you know. I mean, kind of, yeah,

28:12

there are people who are like that. And, um,

28:15

I remember, uh, even, you know, do you

28:17

know who Matt Walsh is? Not the good

28:19

Matt Walsh, but the bad Matt Walsh. Okay.

28:23

Um, he did this

28:25

review of a book that was, it

28:27

was a children's book and it was about consent

28:30

and Um, not for

28:32

sex. Okay. That

28:35

was... But

28:37

there's a philosophy, there's a philosophy

28:40

that one of the reasons why people

28:42

are so poor at consent as adults

28:44

is because they're never taught

28:47

that their opinion matters as children.

28:49

Like, they're just, you know what I mean? And so

28:51

a lot of families will be like, go hug

28:53

your aunt, go hug your grandma, go

28:55

hug, you know, even if the child doesn't

28:57

want to be touched. You

28:59

know, it's like a requirement. And,

29:02

um, so this

29:04

book was sort of the idea of like, kids

29:07

have bodily autonomy. They're

29:09

not like your play thing, they're not your pet,

29:11

they're not your, you know, especially if you don't understand

29:14

or you haven't found out yet that your kid

29:16

has something like autism. And autism

29:19

is one of those tactile, really big ones

29:21

for physical touch. Like, right, like,

29:24

uh, like you could not understand why every

29:26

family gathering your kid is freaking

29:28

out and it's just because. Like,

29:31

they're overstimulated, they don't want to be touched,

29:33

their grandmother is always like poking them

29:35

or something

29:35

like that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what

29:37

kind of this book was getting at. It was like,

29:40

you know, um, basically

29:42

like you don't have to sit on your uncle's knee.

29:44

You don't have to, um, hug your grandma because

29:46

then you, you, you're basically teaching

29:48

kids that it's okay for adults to touch them whenever

29:51

they want.

29:52

Which then gets to a

29:54

whole

29:54

nother Exactly, and so you would

29:56

think someone who claims to be so

29:59

against, like, pedophilia, and,

30:01

you know, so for the safety of kids and everything,

30:03

would be like, this is a good book. Instead,

30:06

he totally trashed the book, and then he was like, consent,

30:09

my kids do whatever I tell them to do,

30:11

you know, and I was just like, dang,

30:14

man. I was like,

30:15

your kids will be less rebellious?

30:17

if you let them be their own person?

30:21

I don't understand what's so hard to understand.

30:23

I'm sure that's not always 100 percent

30:25

true. I'm sure there's some parent out there going, no, there won't.

30:27

But I mean, it worked for us.

30:30

Maybe we just got lucky.

30:31

Well, no, I, it seems

30:33

pretty consistent with

30:35

friends that I've known. Anytime

30:38

that I know someone who's like

30:41

I'm gonna sneak out or something like that

30:43

I've met their parents and I'm like I

30:45

could understand why you'd want to sneak out I was like

30:47

your parents are kind

30:49

of assholes like they just They

30:52

hover so the amount

30:55

oh my gosh going to MV the amount of parents

30:57

that just hover Oh

30:59

helicopter parents. Oh my gosh.

31:01

Yeah

31:01

I cannot. Yeah.

31:03

I was actually really... I thought you guys were alligators.

31:06

No, I'm kidding.

31:08

I could have easily been. Uh, honestly,

31:10

your, your dad, a lot of the parenting

31:12

philosophy came from your dad. And

31:15

I, I had to kind of learn it over time.

31:17

Um, I think he had more

31:20

to... easily unlearn

31:22

because he was like, well, I don't want

31:24

to be my parents, you know? Um,

31:27

whereas I have a great relationship

31:29

with my parents. I love my parents. And, um,

31:32

so I didn't really, I don't know. I just

31:34

didn't really think about like what,

31:36

how I needed to parent. And I just sort of just

31:38

did stuff. And then, you know, Don would be like, well,

31:40

what if we did this instead? Like, oh, okay. You know,

31:42

that makes sense. Yeah. Um. Darn

31:45

it, and I don't remember where I was going. Where

31:48

was I going? What

31:51

were you just talking about? Oh, helicopter

31:53

parents. Um, so when

31:55

we lived... You're welcome. I'm, I'm

31:57

very, I'm actually really grateful

31:59

for our time in Blacksburg because I think that helped

32:01

me let go. Because it

32:04

felt like a safe space

32:06

to let you have freedom. Because we

32:08

lived in that giant apartment complex. Um,

32:12

and we were set aside

32:14

from like main roads

32:17

and stuff like that. And

32:19

the, it was full of,

32:21

um, it was, it

32:23

was, I mean, there was the student section, but there

32:25

was also the, um, the section we lived

32:28

in, which was like graduate school students and

32:30

like visiting professors and families and

32:32

like stuff like that. And so there were a whole bunch of kids

32:34

along there. Yep. And so I

32:36

knew, You know, you went riding

32:38

bike with bikes with your friends. You were going to be surrounded,

32:41

like you're going to be in an area we were familiar with.

32:43

You went up to the pool. We knew where that was.

32:45

Like it was, it was so much

32:47

easier for you to just be like, I'm going to get on my bike and go

32:49

and us be like, okay. You know? Yeah. A

32:52

college residential area

32:54

was actually surprisingly

32:57

a really good area. I feel like to raise a

32:59

kid. Cause like then moving back here, I'm like,

33:01

there's not a lot of kids

33:03

around me. My age and

33:05

there's like the community pools

33:07

are kind of gross and

33:10

well

33:10

it's The, the area,

33:12

it's cause the area, like the

33:15

center of the apartment complex

33:17

was like student, like students and then

33:19

like the outskirts, so we mostly were in the outskirts.

33:21

We didn't hardly really go through the student section. Yeah,

33:24

yeah, we,

33:24

we were in like downtown

33:27

college area. We were, cause

33:29

it was like a college town. Right, yeah. But,

33:34

like, yeah, I

33:36

think college towns are great because there's

33:38

a lot of kids your age and

33:42

there's always, like, uh,

33:45

something that's owned by

33:48

something that's known by the college so it's usually

33:50

kept up nice and everything

33:52

like that. Well, the sad thing

33:54

is... The transient nature

33:57

of colleges and universities meant

33:59

like your friends were constantly moving away. Yeah,

34:01

that's true. And then we moved away, you know.

34:03

I mean, but that can also be a lesson in and of

34:05

itself. Um,

34:08

just, you know, because

34:10

I mean if you don't deal

34:13

with some sort of loss

34:15

at all for a big portion of your life, then

34:17

when it finally hits, it's gonna suck. That's

34:19

a good point. Um, like I never really

34:21

experienced... Uh,

34:24

something that was really, like,

34:26

earth shattering until June

34:29

last year, not the month, until

34:32

our dog passed away last, last

34:34

year. Oh. And so that was, like,

34:38

devastating for me, like, I took a big

34:40

time off of my job and

34:43

I, like, barely

34:45

function. Yeah, that was rough.

34:48

Yeah. Cause, I mean, I just,

34:51

and for, like, some, like, one of my... best

34:55

friends, stuff like that doesn't bother them at all

34:57

because they've had multiple deaths

35:00

in their families. They've, um,

35:04

their parents are both EMTs.

35:07

So the amount of stories

35:10

that they've heard and everything like, like,

35:12

well, they've had a lot

35:13

of animals, right? So it's kind of gone.

35:15

Yeah. Been through that. And,

35:17

um, So yeah, there's just,

35:21

um, so I, I think something like that made

35:23

it a little, because like if, if I had never

35:25

experienced some of my close friends moving away

35:27

from me, I couldn't imagine how much worse

35:30

June passing would have been.

35:31

Yeah. Yeah. I think we

35:33

try to protect kids too much. It's,

35:36

it's, it's kind of funny and weird for

35:38

me to say that right after I said like we,

35:41

we should have a book on. Consent.

35:43

Um, I think we need to protect kids

35:45

in the right way. Yeah. Um,

35:48

I mean, I'm not saying like give your kid a hunting

35:50

knife and drop them off in the middle of the forest and tell them

35:52

to make their way home. Some do that. Um,

35:55

yeah. Uh,

35:57

but yeah, I think, yeah,

35:59

I don't know. It's, parenting's

36:04

difficult. I

36:07

think some of it's also just,

36:09

you can't just stick with one thing. Some

36:12

of it's like you have to cater to your kid.

36:14

100%. I have, I

36:17

have known people who have, uh,

36:19

two kids, three kids, and they

36:21

just, they parent the way they parent.

36:23

That's it. And one will

36:25

be like, Like the

36:27

nicest, most obedient child.

36:30

Raymond Holt. Huh? Raymond

36:32

Holt. There'll be Raymond Holt, yes. Um,

36:34

and then the other will just be like the rebellious.

36:37

Jake Peralta. Yeah. Although

36:39

Jake, Jake was like a good, like,

36:41

he was a scamp. But he

36:43

was off the walls.

36:45

Right, yeah. But like, yeah, it's,

36:47

so you, I think you do kind of have to.

36:50

Especially since. Adjust.

36:52

I mean, any parent

36:54

that have, uh,

36:57

Like, um,

37:01

I don't really know how to put it, an average kid, like

37:03

a kid that doesn't really have any

37:06

sort of, uh, like,

37:08

mental problems or deformities

37:11

or anything like that, and then has

37:13

another kid that might have, like, autism

37:15

or down syndrome. They learn

37:17

so quickly that kids can be so

37:20

different from each other. Yeah, that's, I mean, cause that's an

37:23

obvious difference. Yes, it's very extreme and

37:25

like you have to cater to that

37:27

kid then. At least if it's a higher form of autism.

37:29

Like, there are obviously kids that have lower

37:32

forms of autism that you're just like, Oh, they're just very

37:35

obsessive over this one thing. Right, yeah.

37:37

Um, that's

37:41

the first clue there that you got for

37:44

them having autism. Um,

37:47

But, uh, even simple

37:50

stuff, like, one

37:52

of your kids really

37:54

likes to go out to

37:56

the playground nearby and play with a bunch of kids

37:58

versus your other kid likes to stay inside

38:00

and draw the whole day. Like,

38:03

you gotta... There's

38:05

got to be different parenting for even something

38:07

as simple as that difference.

38:10

Yeah. And that's, that's something that annoys

38:12

me when I see parents doing this

38:14

to their children is when they, like,

38:18

we have, we have a bias towards extraversion

38:20

in this country. And

38:22

so like, yes, it's just like,

38:25

there are so many times

38:27

people and mourning

38:29

people and mourning

38:30

people that too. Yes, I agree. Um,

38:33

yeah, it's like, there's

38:35

lots of situations where people just expect

38:37

other people to be an extrovert. And if they're not

38:39

acting like an extrovert, it's like, oh, there's something wrong

38:42

with you. You have to learn to be an extrovert,

38:44

but we never go up to extroverts and be like, you need

38:46

to. Like, calm down, we need you to learn

38:48

how

38:48

to be an introvert. There are people now that are doing that.

38:51

Yeah, and be like, You need to calm

38:53

down.

38:54

Yeah, and it's, it's a little frustrating

38:56

to me when people do that because there

38:58

are different personalities and not

39:00

everyone can learn to be

39:03

an extrovert, you know? The world is about

39:05

networking. Yeah,

39:07

um. I, I don't

39:10

know how I manage and I don't know if

39:12

I could somehow... Give

39:16

my knowledge to other people, but I

39:18

managed to just say

39:21

F it at one point and just

39:23

started forcing myself to be more

39:25

extroverted and confident and it just

39:29

ended up taking at some point and

39:31

I'm, I'm still not like super extroverted,

39:33

but I'm enough where I can network.

39:35

So you're just proving what I just said, basically.

39:38

What?

39:38

No, no, I'm saying, no, you

39:40

said that people can't, or

39:42

you said that some people can't. Right. I'm

39:45

saying that, like, it doesn't hurt to try.

39:47

Oh, yeah. Like, for

39:49

the longest time, I never thought I was going to be able to,

39:54

but, um, no,

39:57

I, I think it really depends

40:00

on the person. Yeah. Because some of it could

40:02

have also just been something as simple as,

40:04

like, Growing up,

40:06

like people grow out of things. Extroversion and introversion

40:10

can be one of those things. Oh, you were very extroverted

40:12

as a

40:12

child. Yeah. And then you just walk up

40:14

to people. Yeah.

40:16

Yeah. And then for a while I was introverted and

40:19

now I'm kind of somewhere in the middle. Yeah. So.

40:22

Yeah. I mean, I think there are certainly people

40:25

who could try, but I think there are also

40:27

just. We have different ways

40:29

of being in this world and we need to accept that.

40:31

Like I was recently talking with

40:33

an artist who was said

40:35

they were so grateful because their

40:37

mother encouraged their art

40:40

and that was really in their family

40:43

was like surprising

40:45

because like All of their siblings

40:47

are like doctors and stuff, you know,

40:50

and, but it was clear

40:52

that art was like just coming

40:55

out of this person and it was a necessary

40:57

part of their like healing

40:59

process and stuff. And the mother encouraged

41:01

that. And I know there are families who'd be like, you're not going to be an artist.

41:04

No,

41:04

I, yeah. Cause I mean me going to a very

41:06

diverse and rich school,

41:09

I definitely met a lot of

41:11

like Middle Eastern

41:14

Uh, Asian families that were very,

41:17

like, you are going to

41:19

have a PhD

41:21

in something and

41:24

make six figures. Like,

41:26

there was no...

41:28

I dealt with a lot of students, um,

41:30

I did some academic coaching

41:32

when I was at Virginia Tech. And

41:35

there was all these students who came

41:37

from, like, the affluent suburbs of...

41:40

Washington, D. C. They call it NOVA,

41:43

Northern Virginia. And so, like, all

41:45

these kids from NOVA were the ones that

41:47

had, like, the high powered parents and,

41:50

um, and, uh,

41:53

they were expected to do XYZ.

41:55

And the reason I was coaching them was because

41:57

they were on academic probation. Um,

42:00

and, uh, the number of them that

42:02

I would talk to... Who would say,

42:04

like, I don't want to be here. I'm here because

42:07

my parents forced me. They

42:09

told me I'm going to be an engineer because my dad's an engineer

42:11

and I can get a job in their firm and

42:13

blah, blah, blah. You know, and,

42:16

and I'm like, well, what do you want to do? Well, that's

42:18

the great thing

42:18

about nepotism is that you don't need a degree. You can

42:20

just have your dad hire you

42:23

into the job.

42:23

There you go. Just hire anyway. Yeah. But it

42:25

was sad to me because in that situation,

42:28

my job was to get them... Get

42:30

their

42:30

grades

42:31

back up and give them

42:33

hints on and tips on how to like overcome

42:36

any studying problems, but I also

42:38

was just like, tried to give them like

42:40

this in an ear, you

42:43

know, because I thought this is terrible. This person

42:46

really wants to be an artist and

42:49

their parents are forcing them to be an engineer,

42:51

you know? Yeah.

42:55

I always have trouble with that too, because.

42:59

I do support the idea

43:01

of a backup plan. Yes.

43:04

But I think it's really hard

43:06

to have a backup plan

43:09

when it's like that. Like

43:11

there's a difference Like something you don't want at all. Yeah.

43:14

And it's, it's also difficult if

43:16

there are two completely separate ways

43:18

of getting that thing.

43:20

Mm hmm. Like For

43:23

a lot of art stuff, there is, you just

43:25

have to do it and you just have

43:27

to hope that,

43:30

um, you manage to pick up popularity

43:33

and that way you can make money off of it. And

43:37

then you have to

43:39

go to college for, for usually

43:41

whatever other backup plan there is. Yeah.

43:44

Like, arts and... Or

43:46

a trade school. Anything else that's academic, really.

43:48

Yeah, or a trade school. Yeah. is

43:51

going to be two completely different paths. But the

43:53

thing is, is that your backup plan then for going to

43:55

college or a trade school is going to be, take

43:57

up way more of your time. Yeah.

44:00

Even though it shouldn't since it's your backup plan.

44:03

Yeah. That's, that's the tough thing I think

44:05

for somebody who really like the,

44:07

the, the honest truth

44:09

is that the

44:11

arts are difficult to make a living

44:13

at. Yeah. Like, like not,

44:16

it is rare. Um, uh,

44:20

a lot of it's just a lot. Or, or sports or, yeah.

44:22

I mean, a lot of it is being in the right place at the right

44:24

time. A lot of it is connections.

44:27

If you have connections, um,

44:29

and you can be, and, and, and trust talent

44:31

sometimes doesn't really matter. Like

44:33

you can be the most talented. Yeah. You've gone to a modern

44:35

art museum.

44:39

Oh man. Yeah. That day, God,

44:41

he was a, you know, um, the. Like,

44:44

you can be super talented,

44:46

but never be in the right place to be discovered

44:48

or have the right connections to get in front of the right people.

44:51

Like it's, so it's hard. Algorithms

44:53

online

44:53

can just screw you. Oh my God. Just like jump. Yeah.

44:56

And it's so, it's

44:58

so difficult, uh, because

45:01

if you have a dream like that, you want to pursue

45:04

it, but you also know, like, it's a small,

45:06

it's a slim chance and,

45:09

and to have like the backup

45:11

plan. Like you said, unless

45:13

you're just like, well, I'm going to wait tables until

45:16

this happens. Um,

45:18

you, you have to invest time. Um,

45:21

that's basically where

45:22

I'm

45:22

at. Yeah. And

45:23

yeah. Um,

45:29

and that's, that's a difficult spot as a parent too,

45:32

because, you know, logically

45:34

like. That's going to be very difficult

45:37

to break into and I want my child

45:39

to be safe and financially secure and blah

45:41

blah blah But you also don't want that to come across

45:44

as like I don't think you're talented enough You

45:46

know what I mean? Because that's not the issue at

45:48

all. It's the just the

45:50

odds, you know Yeah,

45:52

um, I mean, I'd be perfectly

45:54

fine making a

45:57

barely living wage while just doing stuff that

45:59

I like so Cause

46:02

I mean, I'm just, I'm doing my absolute damnedest

46:05

to stay out of debt.

46:07

I, I, and you're doing a great job.

46:09

If I can do that, and

46:11

I'm still only waiting tables

46:13

or whatever frontline job I'm gonna have

46:15

at that moment, that's honestly good

46:17

enough cause I feel like debt is what

46:20

really sinks people, not what job

46:22

you have. Yep.

46:24

Um, so. 100%?

46:27

But yeah, if you go to, if you go to college

46:29

and you want a backup plan to be something else,

46:31

and your first plan is also college, then

46:33

you're already set because you really just, if

46:36

you have a degree, yeah, if you

46:38

have a degree, then you automatically can.

46:40

That's getting a little better. I've noticed more

46:42

and more listings that are like, no degree

46:45

required, which is. Yes, which is

46:47

nice, but it used to be like when I was growing up, everybody

46:49

was, everybody was like, you better go to college

46:51

or you're not going to get anything.

46:52

There was a couple like editing

46:55

jobs that I

46:57

saw where I needed a degree. Yeah.

47:00

And I, and I like read the description and everything.

47:02

And it was like, you need to know knowledge and this thing and this

47:04

thing. I was like, why didn't you just put experience down?

47:06

I know. Like going to college.

47:09

I, well,

47:11

no, I'm, I'm saying for editing specifically. Editing,

47:16

you barely learn how to edit in college. All

47:19

of it, all of the editing that you learn from

47:21

college is by playing around with the program.

47:24

That's, yeah. So if you play around with the program

47:26

outside of college, you

47:29

know, you know how to do it. Yeah,

47:30

I, I think the, the college

47:33

degree should be... This

47:38

could be a whole episode about what's wrong with the college

47:40

system. There's so much wrong with the college system. Next

47:42

episode! Yeah, not

47:45

to mention like the debt you get into. Most

47:47

people honestly would be better off going to a trade school.

47:49

It's cheaper and then a lot of the trades get

47:51

paid more. This has been a lot of the

47:53

for

47:54

some reason trades are shames. I

47:55

don't understand it. Yeah, it's very well. It's it's

47:57

it's uh, it's You

48:00

know how it's always been like, you know blue

48:02

blue collar, you know

48:05

People physical work people are also

48:07

for some reason Like,

48:09

get disgruntled about the easy way out. And

48:12

it's like, why wouldn't you want to take the easy way

48:14

out? Like, why wouldn't you want

48:16

the easier thing? Go

48:19

to, go to college for 10 years so

48:21

you can finally become a doctor and make six figures,

48:24

or go to college for two years. And

48:26

make six figures. Right. Yeah.

48:28

Like, yeah, I mean, obviously there's a difference in

48:30

what you want to do, but right. If you're

48:32

purely looking at the numbers.

48:35

Oh, it makes way more sense to go for a trade.

48:37

Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's, and it's

48:39

kind of funny coming from me, because I have a PhD.

48:43

And, well, but I can tell you, it

48:47

is not worth it.

48:49

It is, it's, it was expensive and

48:51

I'm going to be paying, I will, my, my

48:53

student loans will probably go away when I die.

48:56

Like that's probably how it's going to be, you

48:58

know, and now,

49:01

as long as the government doesn't make me inherit

49:03

them. No, if they, if you die, your student

49:05

loans go away. Right now. Fair.

49:08

I'll do my best. Um, yeah,

49:12

so, um, oh,

49:15

what was my train of thought? What

49:20

PhD? Paying it off for the rest of

49:22

your life.

49:23

Don't remind me. Um,

49:27

it's, you know, in

49:29

my mind growing up

49:31

and then even, you know, up until

49:34

I was maybe 40, uh,

49:37

college was like the end all be all. It's

49:39

what you needed. And I thought a PhD

49:42

would grant me access. And now granted at the

49:44

time I wanted to be a professor, so it made sense.

49:47

Um, but. I

49:49

don't think my Ph. D. has really gotten me

49:51

access to anything, uh,

49:54

you know. Yeah. I mean, I can't

49:56

say for sure. I mean, there may

49:58

have been a job I got hired for, they're

50:00

like, oh, she has a Ph. D. Like, I don't know if that

50:02

could put me over the edge or anything, but there's

50:05

like no Always, there's something. Yeah,

50:07

there, I mean, but there's no like, like,

50:10

Honestly, nothing that I'm aware

50:12

of.

50:13

One of the biggest things is,

50:17

uh, just your parents having your back,

50:20

which is what you guys have always done

50:22

for me. Um,

50:25

I think college was like one

50:27

of those things you guys really had

50:29

trouble with trying to get

50:32

behind me with, of not going

50:34

anymore. I didn't. Um.

50:39

I worried about you.

50:41

Well, yeah, but that's that's what I'm saying

50:43

is like there was a lot of sit

50:45

downs and discussions for that more

50:47

than Yeah,

50:49

I should say Yeah,

50:51

I should sit. I should put it like this. I

50:56

I didn't We

51:00

were not the parents who were going to sit down and yell

51:03

at you about going and making sure you

51:05

went and, and all that stuff.

51:07

Um, but I felt like I wanted to

51:09

do our due diligence. Like I

51:12

watched how much you hated it. I

51:15

watched what it was doing to your psyche.

51:18

And I was like, I want my child to stop

51:20

doing this because he is unhappy.

51:23

And so I immediately

51:25

was like, don't go back. Like

51:27

in my mind, I was like, don't go back. But

51:30

then it was like, okay, this is a huge

51:32

decision with long term ramifications,

51:34

which your dad knows because he doesn't have a degree and he's

51:36

had trouble his whole life getting jobs and stuff,

51:39

you know? And um,

51:41

and so I wanted to make sure we talked about it thoroughly.

51:44

Yeah.

51:44

Yeah. Yeah, recently

51:47

I, um, had

51:49

an anxiety attack like same

51:51

degree as I would have almost every

51:53

day when going to school. And

51:55

I was like, how did I live with

51:57

myself? Yeah, I don't know. You were, you

51:59

always had anxiety issues, like even as

52:01

a... As a toddler you didn't want to be

52:03

dropped off at daycare and stuff.

52:05

I just yeah, I don't know what screw

52:07

or school screwed with me Like I just

52:10

and any time now that I feel the level

52:12

of depression or anxiety that I had while

52:14

I was in school I was like, I don't know how I did

52:16

this every day. Yeah, I don't know either School

52:19

is not for everybody. It's just not no

52:22

it's not. Um, and Yeah,

52:25

uh, I'm perfectly fine

52:28

never going back and living

52:32

with crappy jobs, so

52:34

that's fine with me. I

52:37

have made my peace.

52:40

Um. All I care about is whether or not you're happy.

52:43

Well, I shouldn't say all I care about. I,

52:46

I also want you to be clothed

52:49

and fed and have a roof over your head and,

52:52

you know. I mean, that was also nice. But

52:54

you guys, like, you guys weren't 18

52:56

and kicking me out of the... Oh

52:58

my God, I didn't want you to leave. I

53:01

heard all these other parents that were like, Oh,

53:03

I can't wait till they're out of the house. And I'm like, I don't want him

53:06

to go.

53:08

Yeah.

53:09

Um, I just, I even hated

53:11

it when you just kind of disappeared for a while when you first

53:14

started dating Shelby and you guys just were always

53:16

like, you were always at her place or you were like, you

53:18

guys were always out and like, you were like,

53:20

it was so sad to me. I was

53:22

like, I don't even remember. I can't

53:25

even see him anymore. Like we used to, cause

53:27

we used to watch movies all the time. We used to do puzzles

53:29

and all this stuff.

53:30

Yeah. Because you wouldn't even really see me in the morning.

53:32

Cause I would, in the morning I would go to work and then

53:34

like after work I would go to Shelby's or

53:36

something like that. So I wouldn't see you for days. And

53:38

I was like so sad, and

53:40

I was like, how do people, how are people like

53:43

just like excited for their kid to be in

53:45

the house? Like, I don't understand this because I am so

53:47

sad. So like, yeah, so

53:49

when um, now having you both here,

53:51

I love it. I,

53:53

I, yeah. Yeah, that, that's

53:55

also I think why there's like,

53:58

I think... Right

54:01

now as well, there's so many people that are just

54:03

shutting their parents out.

54:05

Oh, going no

54:06

contact? Because their, their parents

54:08

will be like, I want you out of the house

54:11

or, you know, you just have to listen to me

54:13

and that's it. And basically all of the negative

54:15

things that we've talked about so far, sometimes

54:18

a lot of those are wrapped up in one parent. And

54:21

then, and then they'll get

54:23

mad at their kids for, for

54:26

not wanting to speak with them or anything

54:28

like that. And it's like, how.

54:30

There was more, definitely

54:33

that philosophy I remember growing up,

54:35

which was basically, especially

54:37

cause I grew up in a Christian context, right? So everything

54:39

was about forgiveness. You need to forgive everything.

54:42

Right. And there's, there's

54:44

forgiveness, but then there's also protecting

54:46

yourself. Like you can forgive and

54:48

still remove yourself from the situation.

54:51

Um, you know, and.

54:53

Yeah, because that's, that's like, that's

54:56

not life. It's exactly putting yourself

54:58

in a toxic situation and then just

55:01

keep forgiving that person. And then they're like,

55:04

no, I, if, if

55:06

I ever had a friend that was constantly

55:08

toxic to me all the time, first

55:12

of all, they were never my friend to begin with

55:14

because they were so toxic to me all the time and

55:16

I just cut them out. I'm not going to try

55:19

to be friends with you.

55:20

Yeah. Yeah. I think

55:22

we have this, I don't

55:25

know how prevalent it is. It's in

55:27

which generations and whatnot, but definitely like

55:29

in my generation growing up, it was very

55:31

like, family is family,

55:34

you know, and you just forgive,

55:36

forgive, forgive. And then you just

55:38

like stick with that family, which to

55:42

in a very, very basic sense, yeah,

55:45

you like you people make

55:47

mistakes, you forgive them everything. But that's very

55:49

different from someone. Being,

55:54

like you said, toxic or somebody

55:56

denying the very fiber of who you are,

55:59

somebody only demonstrating

56:01

love and care for you if you behave in the ways that

56:03

they want, you know, and,

56:06

um, It's, it's kind

56:08

of funny because I'm, I'm very pro

56:10

going no contact if it is good

56:13

for your mental health. Um, and

56:15

I have to say that,

56:17

um, I, it's not

56:19

because I want to go no contact with my parents

56:21

or I have or anything like that. Like I'm,

56:24

I'm very connected to my parents and...

56:26

I, you know, I go back to visit them

56:28

often, you know, um, so

56:31

I don't, I don't want to go no contact with them.

56:33

I wouldn't, I wouldn't. Um,

56:35

but witnessing

56:37

like what the relationship I

56:40

have with my family versus

56:42

what some other people I know have with theirs,

56:45

I'm like, yeah, you,

56:48

your situation is bad.

56:50

Like, yeah. You know, and

56:53

um, especially when somebody's like,

56:55

they, they come out as like

56:57

gay or trans or,

57:00

you know, and then their parents are like, basically

57:02

like, yeah, like why would

57:05

that kid want to stay in contact

57:07

with you? Honestly, especially

57:08

there's some parents that

57:11

will kick their family

57:13

member out or like, we'll, we'll

57:16

get mad at them, basically shut their family member

57:18

out and then they'll get mad at the family

57:20

member for not, Reaching

57:21

out to them. Uh huh. Oh, it's so

57:24

it is this very weird feeling where they're like,

57:26

well, I'm the parent you can't reject

57:28

me I gave birth to you, you

57:31

know, like And in

57:33

a very visceral way I kind of I

57:35

kind of get that especially because if you ever were

57:37

like I'm gonna go no contact with you I would

57:39

it would devastate me. That would be awful.

57:41

I will be the worst thing for me Okay.

57:46

Um,

57:48

okay. But,

57:51

but I don't know what parents expect when they treat

57:53

their kids the way they do, especially if it's like parents

57:55

who have abused their children when they were younger,

57:58

like physically abused them.

58:01

And then as an adult, they're like, well you should just forgive

58:03

me for that, and we should, you know. Especially

58:04

if the parent had said

58:07

something along the lines of, I'm not gonna do it anymore,

58:09

and then did it again. Yeah. And then,

58:12

even if the parent is being completely serious,

58:14

and it's 100 percent going to happen that you're not gonna

58:16

do it again, there's never gonna be any

58:18

of that trust.

58:20

Well, and sometimes

58:23

as, uh, older,

58:25

they refuse, they refuse to admit that.

58:28

It was their fault. That, yeah. Or that they

58:30

even did it, you know. Yeah. So,

58:33

so yeah, um,

58:36

I hope nobody, anybody listening

58:38

to this, I hope they don't have to go no contact with their

58:40

parents, but um, I also

58:42

hope you choose it if it's what's right for your

58:44

mental health. Yeah. You know,

58:46

like you have to.

58:47

Even distancing is okay. Yeah.

58:50

Like, it doesn't have to be no contact. Right. You can just

58:52

give your, like, if you say, I

58:54

need some

58:54

space. Base. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And,

58:57

and if you're a parent and your kid has gone on no

58:59

contact with you, you may want to take

59:02

a look at your behavior. Yes.

59:04

Yeah. So. Man,

59:07

we covered a lot of stuff. We did. It's

59:09

an

59:09

hour in. Are we

59:10

an hour in? Yeah. Oh my God.

59:12

Welp. Oh, goodbye! Gotta get

59:14

somewhere. I, uh,

59:15

I think, I think maybe we, we need to do our

59:17

Midwestern goodbye. Time

59:19

to go.