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3:13

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3:15

My name is James Petrigal. I'm

3:18

here with my co-host. I am

3:20

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3:22

much for joining us today. We have an awesome

3:24

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3:29

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3:31

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3:33

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3:37

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4:58

about the whole oh tiny. Gambling disaster in

5:01

baseball and then other gambling incidents that app

5:03

that that they get brushed under the rug.

5:05

Pete Rose's the only one where they were

5:07

like. Side of a spotlight

5:09

on everything else. Redlands own seriously pushed

5:11

under the rug and lots of one

5:14

the ones will talk about for small

5:16

town murderer and talk about something very

5:18

fine. Was Charles Manson, a Cia asset

5:20

was a yeah, Was the whole thing

5:22

now a big conspiracy to take down

5:24

the whole hippie movement in the anti

5:26

war thing and all. I will talk

5:28

all about it's us. Some guy ruined

5:30

his whole career and spent twenty years

5:32

writing a book. Others crazy Syria needs

5:34

that. People are nice. Wow, talk all

5:36

about it and others the I. Related

5:38

conspiracy holes will go down there

5:41

south. That said, I think it's

5:43

time I like a tree on.com/crime

5:45

in Sports Get that Right now

5:47

that set of think it's time

5:49

everybody. let's do this. I think

5:51

it's time that clear the London.

5:53

Here we go arms to the

5:55

sky let's all shout ah. me

6:00

murder. Let's do this. I like it. Let's

6:02

go on a trip, shall we? All right.

6:04

We are going to New Jersey. Hey! Not

6:07

too far away here. Probably about a two-hour

6:09

drive from where we are right now. We're

6:11

going to Long Branch, New Jersey. Long Branch.

6:13

Long Branch, which if it sounds familiar, yeah,

6:16

because you heard it on the Sopranos and

6:18

we'll talk about that. Oh, yeah. That's probably

6:20

why. Uh-oh. Did you do enough research, Jake?

6:22

No, it's... Find out that we already did

6:24

this? No, no. No, no. This

6:27

is... That happened once before. This is in

6:29

central New Jersey on the east coast of

6:31

New Jersey over there. It's a beach, kind of

6:33

a, you know, touristy beach spot here. About an

6:35

hour and 15 to New York City. About

6:38

40 minutes to Toms River Township,

6:40

our last Jersey episode. Episode 437,

6:42

Sex, Greed, and Vice Principles.

6:44

Hell, yeah. So, yes.

6:47

Population here, 31,734. Wow.

6:49

So, a good-sized town.

6:51

I mean, it's right on the water, so it's nice.

6:54

Median in-team here, median household income,

6:56

is about 65,000 bucks. Doing well.

6:58

Which, it's close to the normal

7:01

of the rest of the country, but the median home

7:03

price... No. Holy shit. I can't imagine. $641,700. It's the

7:05

water. How do you do it? You're on the beach.

7:11

I think those people live in apartments that make

7:14

the average, and then people who live other places

7:16

own homes here that are very expensive. Yeah.

7:19

A motto of this town, they have two.

7:22

One is the first seaside resort. First one.

7:24

First one, which on the east coast it

7:26

kind of was. Like, as far as a

7:28

resort. They kind of invented that type of

7:30

thing. And they also call it the friendly

7:32

city. Which, I've

7:35

spent a lot of time in Jersey, and I

7:37

wouldn't call much of it friendly. That's not the... Even

7:41

when someone's being friendly, they're like, hey, asshole,

7:44

you need help or what? They're willing to help you, but

7:46

they're going to call you an asshole and be aggressive. Hey,

7:49

jerk off. You want me to help you change that title? I have a lot

7:51

of auto expertise. You know what I mean? I don't know.

7:53

I'm in Jersey. That's why I didn't have that. I go, fuck

7:55

you. Don't help. Hey, cocksucker, you need a

7:57

jump or what? I'll help you. It's

8:00

very weird. So it was

8:02

a... emerged as a beach resort town in

8:04

the... Like late 1700s. Oh,

8:07

yeah. People started going there. Like,

8:10

early presidents went there. It was like, it was

8:12

the spot to go. 1700 sandals. That's

8:14

how it was, pretty much. In the

8:17

19th century, 1800s, theatrical performers

8:20

would have their things because

8:22

people would gather there, just like in any of

8:24

these boom towns. They realized we'd go to where

8:26

the people are. That's right. Where people will show

8:28

up. So Long Branch in the

8:30

20th century kind of wasn't really a theater

8:32

hotspot anymore. It became more of a, you

8:34

know, kind of a family vacation type of

8:36

joint. And you don't take your kids to

8:38

watch theater generally, especially in Jersey.

8:40

That seems like a nightmare. Yeah. And

8:42

then the Garden State Parkway opened up

8:45

and then people could get south easier.

8:47

So then there was less demand

8:50

for Long Branch here. Now on

8:52

the Sopranos, Long Branch

8:54

is where Adriana's nightclub is. The Crazy Horse

8:56

that Chris buys her and they kill somebody

8:58

in there and all that kind of thing.

9:00

Yes, that is exactly that. It was in

9:03

Long Branch. Remember they show up, she's blindfolded,

9:05

and she says, I smell the ocean. And

9:08

then she gets inside and says, I smell

9:10

piss. Which New Jersey is a good mix

9:12

of piss and ocean. Very nice.

9:15

I smell fish and piss. And

9:18

then the other, the house Tony hangs

9:20

out in when he's

9:22

hiding out toward the end of the series.

9:24

It was in Long Branch also. So Long

9:27

Branch gets a lot of play there. Reviews

9:29

of this town quickly here. Five

9:31

Stars, Jesus Christ, this person is

9:33

wordy. We'll go through this. Five

9:35

Stars, Long Branch has been booming

9:37

after Hurricane Sandy and is a

9:39

beachy touristy city. Though the traffic

9:42

gets a little much during the

9:44

summertime, as you can imagine, it

9:46

is what you expect when the weather is nice and everyone wants to

9:49

go to the beach. Okay, there, good. Someone's logical.

9:51

They go, yeah, I'm in a place where people

9:53

want to be. What do you want? The Pier

9:55

Village is a family friendly setting where you can

9:57

both go to the beach for a day. but

10:00

get something to eat for dinner before you hit

10:02

the road. There's plenty of parking, but you'll need

10:04

to pay upwards of $10 to park for the

10:06

day. That's incredibly

10:08

important. For a whole day? That sounds great,

10:10

yeah. Wow. New York City, that

10:12

would cost you 75 easy. Oh my God. That's a

10:14

wow. Anywhere in New England is 50 bucks for a day?

10:17

Yeah, it's a whole day. I'm shocked they let you

10:19

park the day. That's a $10. It's

10:22

usually four hours. Get the fuck out of

10:24

here. And she's complaining. Wow, he's complaining. Incredible.

10:26

Long Branch is as close as it

10:29

is to areas like Red Bank and

10:31

Asbury Park, okay? As

10:33

close as it is to areas like Red Bank

10:35

and Asbury Park. Drugs, guns, and

10:38

a lot of Hispanic people. Oh my

10:40

God, that feels racist. It

10:42

is. And that feels racist. Is

10:45

that why that feels racist? I don't like drugs. I don't like

10:47

people with guns, and I don't like a lot of Hispanic people.

10:49

Yeah, I think they were naming three bad things in their mind.

10:52

The beach is a wonderful summer spot. The

10:54

winter's kind of dead. Gee, winter at the

10:56

beach? Surprise. Surprise. Surprised.

10:59

People don't want to go sit by the ocean. We're

11:01

windy and cold. I would love to see cleaner streets

11:04

in the ocean. I have taken it upon myself to

11:06

clean up the ocean area. Is that right? He is.

11:08

This person's going to clean the ocean. Just dragging

11:11

the bottom. Wow, that's pretty impressive. One guy's

11:13

going to clean the ocean and

11:15

recruit who I can. He's

11:17

a crazy person going through the streets going, help me clean

11:19

the ocean. And they're like. It's

11:22

dirty. That's the clean, help me clean the ocean

11:24

guy. He's like a local, you know. Somebody gets

11:26

transient from time to time. Yeah, yeah. Five

11:28

bucks, all right, man. Sure. Yeah,

11:30

all right. I've been in bad spots in my

11:32

life, but I'm happy here with my family, but

11:35

needs more life. Okay. Three

11:38

stars. It's a silly little city that has

11:40

a nice beach and good school. Silly. Silly

11:42

little city. Tickle your nipple. Yeah, it's nice.

11:45

Yeah, and tickle your fucking funny bone here.

11:47

The streets are clean and the parks are

11:49

just great for young children. Parks

11:51

good for kids? Weird. There's

11:54

a local pool alongside the beaches just in case

11:56

you don't much like the beach. Okay.

11:58

You go in the pool instead of the big. giant pool

12:00

that's over that way. One

12:02

star here finally, Long Branch schools

12:04

suck and the town sucks. That's

12:08

why I moved and changed schools. The people

12:11

and kids in Long Branch aren't friendly at

12:13

all. That kid got a lot

12:15

of wedgies. A whole

12:17

lot of wedgies there for that young man,

12:19

I would say. Long Branch schools suck and

12:21

the town sucks, man. Things

12:23

to do in this town, Long Branch

12:26

Ocean Fest. Okay. Yeah, that

12:28

should be all the time. Ocean Fest.

12:30

Ocean Fest. It's 4th of July. Oh,

12:32

it's a big deal around the summer.

12:35

They say it's the biggest Independence Day

12:37

celebration anywhere in New Jersey. Anywhere.

12:40

The whole fucking... They

12:42

go pretty hard. The whole shore goes hard. The

12:45

Northeast goes pretty hard on the 4th of July.

12:47

They do. So, I don't know what they're talking

12:49

about here, but maybe it is. I have no

12:51

idea. The ball's claim. Yeah, they say, crowds numbering

12:53

in the hundreds of thousands have come for the

12:55

last 35 years to this place. From

12:58

all over the place. I'll bet that's true. I'm

13:00

sure. Down the whole fucking coast. It's just people

13:03

go to the water on those types of

13:05

things here. They say there's sights,

13:07

sounds, and sensations of the summer season. Jesus,

13:09

that is a lot of asses. There it

13:11

is. Visitors control the famous beachfront, take

13:13

in the wonderful views. Same shit that happens

13:16

every other time, except there's fireworks, probably. Enjoyed

13:19

performances by dancers, musicians, clowns,

13:21

and musical acts. Who

13:23

brought the clowns? Sample from

13:25

a smorgasbord of food vendors and check

13:27

out the wares of crafters from all

13:29

over the Northeast. You can even see

13:32

fabulous sand sculptures and meet a familiar

13:34

costume character while catching some ocean breezes.

13:36

Oh, they dress up as people, too?

13:38

Yeah. It just sounds like a bad

13:41

street fare. It's like Sunset Boulevard, but

13:43

fucking by the beach. It's beach

13:45

times square. Yeah, no good. Hollywood

13:48

Boulevard's awful. So, okay, that said, let's talk

13:50

about a murder. Now that we're in New

13:52

Jersey, it's a good place to die. Let's

13:54

talk all about it. Okay, let's go back

13:56

in time some here. A little bit. Let's

13:58

tie machines. Things are

14:00

swirling, clocks are winding. Winded up. Okay.

14:04

Let's go back to, so yeah, we're going, wow, it's 42

14:07

years ago at this moment in time. First

14:09

let's talk about a man, Walter A. Carras

14:11

Jr. K-A-R-I-S. K-A-R-A-S,

14:14

Carras, yeah. Walter

14:18

A. Carras Jr., which I keep, I want

14:20

to call him Alex because of Alex Carras,

14:22

the guy who played

14:24

Mongo and Webster's father. Right. Yeah,

14:27

so that's just the same last name. I just want to call

14:29

him Alex. By the way, he is one

14:31

of the guys we'll talk about in the gambling

14:33

Patreon. Oh no. Long ago. Oh yeah, yeah, he

14:35

got suspended for a whole year. It's

14:38

fucking hilarious. So this guy,

14:40

Walter, is a policeman and

14:43

has been married for 22 years. He

14:46

keeps running for Oceanport Borough

14:48

Council and losing. He

14:52

runs every year and loses. How humbling.

14:54

Yeah, I don't understand. Do you like

14:56

me yet? I

14:59

don't know why he keeps doing it, but he keeps fucking doing it. He

15:02

is married to Anne, that's

15:04

his wife's name, and they have two children as of

15:06

1982. They have an 11-year-old

15:08

boy named Walter, again. The third. The

15:11

third. A 13-year-old girl named

15:13

Christina spelled oddly as well. Really?

15:17

K-R-Y-S-T-I-N-A. Oh boy. It

15:20

starts out almost like Crystal and then bust into

15:22

a Christina. It's

15:24

a transformer. It's a ... yeah. Anne's

15:28

sister-in-law said she always made people feel

15:30

like they were the best. Like

15:33

they were the best. They are or they are the

15:35

best? She makes you feel like you're the

15:37

best. Oh. Yeah. That's

15:40

nice. She always had a smile. That's

15:42

wonderful. She also

15:44

... Anne is well known around here where

15:46

she's active in a lot of the political

15:48

and social organizations. They really like that,

15:50

huh? Yeah. They're much into that. He's

15:53

a cop and he runs for shit and she's into all that kind of thing.

15:56

She's very into her children, protective of them, good mom. And

15:58

making you feel like you're the best. you feel like you're

16:00

the best. They've been married for 22 years

16:03

and they've talked about divorce a few times. Oh.

16:06

Yeah, their marriage is at the skids, and that's 22

16:08

years, it happens. People go through rough patches in 22

16:10

years and it happens. And they

16:13

talked about divorce a little bit, but Anne

16:16

never wanted to get divorced. She was

16:19

the one who never wanted to get divorced

16:21

because she said it would have brought shame

16:23

to her large Italian family. Okay, it's that.

16:25

Yeah, it's what it is. It's cultural. Catholic

16:27

Italian shit, yep. Well, the

16:30

Italian families, they don't want you to get divorced.

16:32

When my grandmother got divorced, this was like 1968, people

16:34

came from Italy. To

16:38

tell her that she's a piece of shit? To, yeah.

16:40

What? Yes, they can share. Her

16:42

brothers flew over an ocean to

16:44

yell at her to not get divorced. I gotta take

16:46

a message to her in person. They flew across a

16:49

fucking ocean for this. To yell

16:51

at, like in Godfather II when they brought in

16:53

Frankie Pantangeli's brother to stare at him and make

16:55

him fucking not testify, that's exactly what they did

16:57

to her. And

16:59

she just ran away and moved to California so they

17:01

couldn't find, it was crazy, yeah. That's how hardcore it

17:03

was back then. Yeah, they did not want you, and

17:05

this is 82, it's a little bit later, but still,

17:08

sometimes it's a little much. And also

17:10

for the kids, she didn't wanna get divorced. There

17:12

is that, yeah. They were a respectable couple and

17:15

she didn't wanna be broken up and be a

17:17

broken up family. You know, it's not when she's broken home,

17:19

you know? So March 20th, 1982, Walter

17:23

and Anne are going out on a date together. That's

17:26

nice. 22 years, if you're gonna

17:28

stay together, you gotta be able

17:30

to, you gotta do things together and get away

17:32

from people and the kids. It's also impressive if

17:34

you're seriously considering divorce and you're still doing date

17:36

night, that's nice. Yeah, well I think the divorce

17:38

thing kinda comes and goes. Wayne's and

17:40

Epson Flo's type of deal. So now

17:43

they go to the movies and

17:46

they park their car

17:48

and they start walking toward the movie

17:50

theater. Now, Walter

17:54

here, they're near an Italian restaurant that's

17:56

near the movie theater. Walter said,

17:58

ah shit, I gotta go. back to the car.

18:00

I've left the keys in it. That's not good. So I

18:02

gotta go back and get

18:05

the keys. That's not good. Yeah, it's

18:07

gonna get stolen. So he

18:09

runs back to get the keys and says, you

18:11

know, wait here, I'll be right back. So she's

18:13

hanging out in front of an Italian restaurant. It's

18:15

a pretty safe area, you know, not terribly dangerous

18:18

or anything like that. Then

18:20

diners in the Italian restaurant

18:23

thought they heard a woman

18:25

scream out Walter. Oh. Okay,

18:27

like multiple times. Now,

18:30

he, Walter comes back from getting the

18:32

keys and finds Anne

18:34

lying there on the ground

18:37

bleeding like crazy and gurgling.

18:40

And she's been stabbed 22 times. Holy.

18:42

And her purse has been taken. Yeah.

18:45

Yeah, she has no purse. Her crucifix

18:47

has been taken off her neck, the

18:49

gold chain. Yeah. And her

18:51

purse has been snatched. And robbed and

18:54

stabbed like crazy. 22 times is a

18:56

lot. That's not normal for robbery.

18:58

No, robbery is let go of your shit. Yeah. Two,

19:00

three, and then I'm gone. Enough to get you to

19:02

let go of your shit, and I'm getting the hell

19:04

out of here. And it's flashing even, not even stabbed.

19:07

Yeah, but 22 times is like, fuck you. Yeah. You're

19:09

gonna die. I want your purse. I want, yeah.

19:11

The purse, you could get the

19:13

purse before 22 stabs. You'd think after like 3, 4.

19:15

Yeah, they'd probably go, okay, fine.

19:17

Yeah. You know, you punctured my lung, take my

19:20

purse. But so people freak the

19:22

fuck out. Yeah. She dies. Wow. She dies

19:24

in the street, literally bleeds out in the

19:26

street as they wait for help to come.

19:28

In front of Italian restaurant? In front of

19:30

an Italian restaurant. That's not one of the

19:33

scenes from an Italian restaurant. Why'd you leave that

19:35

one out, Bill? Yeah, that's not exactly. Walter

19:39

and Anne were in front of the restaurant and got stabbed

19:41

right on the ground. It's

19:43

not the same thing. Fucking billy billy.

19:47

Oh, man. So, yeah, the

19:49

people freak out. I can't imagine. Because, you know,

19:51

this nice woman's been slaughtered. Nobody

19:53

saw it. They heard her scream out Walter, which

19:55

would make sense that she'd be calling for her

19:57

husband to come help her. You know what I

19:59

mean? because he's a cop too, I'm sure. He

20:02

would probably jump in there, I

20:04

assume. Probably carry him. Either carry him? Yeah.

20:06

I don't know if New Jersey's one of

20:08

them, but in a lot of states, cops

20:11

are required to carry firearms even off

20:13

duty, just in case some shit pops

20:15

off. So, maybe. I remember that from

20:17

Beverly Hills Cop. Oh, yeah. I'm required

20:19

to carry. Cops, actually in Detroit, cops

20:21

are required to carry firearms at all

20:23

times. So,

20:26

it's a nice area. It's a tourist. People go

20:28

out to dinner and go to the movies. They

20:31

do not want... This is day and night central.

20:33

Local government, this is the last place they want

20:35

murders. They want people to go out and spend

20:38

money and have it be thriving and do all

20:40

that. It's the worst way you could do it.

20:42

So, rewards are posted and a

20:44

trust fund set up for the children by

20:46

the co-workers at the police force of Walter.

20:50

It's horrible. At the wake,

20:52

Walter collapses and sobs and he's grieving

20:54

my poor wife and everybody's

20:56

horrible. I mean, Jesus Christ. 22

21:01

years and they've been married since he was 20.

21:05

They're both 42, 43 years old. I mean,

21:07

this is what they've been together. But

21:10

he gets cheered up pretty quick, actually.

21:12

Yeah. Someone said, cheer up, bitch. And he said, well,

21:14

I know how to do that. He

21:16

is seen very shortly after the

21:18

funeral, like within a week, hanging

21:21

out in Hoboken at the train station

21:23

with a 21 year old named

21:27

Mary Claire Williams. That

21:29

was quick. Yeah. I mean, that's a

21:31

lot. 21

21:34

he found. I mean, he's like, I need

21:36

to get really cheery really fast. Yeah. This

21:38

is, I'm super depressed. And relive my 20.

21:41

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to try to go back. I

21:43

didn't want... I fucked up. I didn't mean to get

21:45

married to have those kids. I'm going to go back

21:47

and relive my whole life here. So one of the

21:49

policemen that works with him said we were all just

21:51

a little surprised. I mean, he just buried his wife.

21:54

Yeah. Like it's really just... That

21:56

dirt's still loose. Yeah. That's just odd. But

21:58

I mean, people have weird reactions. to

22:00

stuff. Maybe he's very lonely

22:02

and I mean who knows. You don't know

22:04

how people feel if they've been together for

22:06

that long and they die and the kids

22:08

are there. I get that it sounds bad

22:10

but maybe it's not bad. And from her

22:12

perspective though it's even weirder I think. I

22:15

think it's more... Yeah, ooh, this hot older

22:17

widow. This guy just bam. He's got a

22:20

loose dirt and still want him. Yeah, this

22:22

is hot. How do you... Hot stuff

22:24

right here. You were on a date with your wife a week

22:26

ago. Hot. Yeah. Now

22:29

the thing is this is not new.

22:31

They've actually been together for like two

22:33

years. Oh. He's been banging this 21

22:35

year old since he was 19. She

22:37

was 19. Yeah. Oh.

22:40

Yeah. Oh. That's

22:43

so weird. That is... stuff's getting weirder

22:45

and weirder here. Oh, good grief. Yeah.

22:47

Now a little bit about Mary Claire

22:50

Williams here. She moved to this area

22:52

with her family from Illinois when her

22:54

father got a job as an executive

22:56

director for the Family and Children Services

22:58

in Long Branch in 1974. So

23:00

that was when she was a kid. And

23:02

then he left there to go into

23:04

business for herself, for himself. Now her

23:06

sophomore year of high school was 1977

23:10

and she went to Shore Regional High School. Yeah.

23:13

And the following year she lived with an

23:15

aunt who was a nun in Illinois. Yikes.

23:17

She spent her senior year with a nun

23:20

in Illinois. Oh, that's hard. So, yeah. Going

23:23

to a Catholic school probably, right? Yeah. She went to

23:25

Red Bank Catholic School during her senior year. There you

23:27

go. So that is... Oh,

23:29

repression. No, she's not repressed.

23:32

She's out on the surface. No, it's not

23:34

repressed. She's just rebelling against us. Yeah, kind

23:37

of thing. She has a friend

23:40

of hers who's a child here.

23:43

Yeah, during the 80s this kid's in like

23:45

eighth grade or something. That's her friend? That's

23:47

her friend because I guess Mary

23:51

was a Catholic, was one

23:53

of St. Dorothy's, CYO, basketball,

23:57

Catholic Youth Organization.

24:00

I should say if you're not from the Northeast you won't know

24:02

what CYO basketball is. And

24:04

she was a star basketball player. Mary

24:07

was. And then she began coaching sixth,

24:09

seventh and eighth graders in another CYO

24:11

league and that's how she met this

24:13

young girl. She's mentoring her, I guess.

24:15

So she is described as a coach.

24:17

They described her as not

24:20

as a coach but as a woman. They

24:22

know who she is because she's young so she talks to the kids.

24:25

And they said she was someone who sought out love

24:27

but rejected it at the same time. What?

24:30

Yeah, she was a fierce competitor, they said, with a

24:32

run and gun style on

24:34

the court but then easily persuaded and

24:36

easily hurt off the court. So

24:39

not the same, doesn't have the same attitude.

24:42

Her teammates said she was a troubled

24:44

teenager who had an outgoing personality but

24:47

still wasn't, didn't make

24:49

friends easy. Really? Which is

24:51

really weird. Everybody keeps calling her a paradox. That's

24:53

what they always call her. She's outgoing.

24:55

Outgoing but doesn't make friends easy, which

24:58

is the opposite of what's usual. And

25:01

on the court, she's really aggressive and everything

25:03

and then off the court she can hurt her very

25:05

easily. So it's interesting. They

25:08

said that when she had a friend, she'd give that

25:10

person everything she had. She'd

25:12

just dump everything into this friend, which can be

25:14

overwhelming for people and that might be why she

25:18

doesn't have as many friends as

25:20

she'd like to hear. So,

25:22

yeah, they're all, she's a

25:24

basketball player, basketball coach and

25:26

she said, this is her young friend, said she'd

25:28

do anything for anybody. She came on a little

25:30

too strong in an effort to be light. I

25:32

loved her. Every time I had a problem, she

25:35

talked to me. So then

25:37

Mary goes to the GRACE Institute, which is

25:39

a secretarial school in New York City run

25:41

by nuns. I'm

25:43

going to be a nun secretary. Okay. Why

25:45

do you want to be taught secretarial things

25:47

by nuns? Answering calls for nuns?

25:50

I don't know. The nuns run

25:52

a school, a secretarial school.

25:54

Yeah, it's run by nuns. The

25:57

principal, Sister Marie Morin, said

25:59

she... She was a very outgoing girl and always

26:01

full of life. You always knew when she was

26:04

around, which is half,

26:06

that's a backhanded compliment. You know what I

26:08

mean? That's one of those. And you

26:11

always know she's allowed. She ends up working for

26:13

a law firm for a couple months, and

26:16

then she does the general reception

26:18

work from her secretarial background. And

26:20

then she ended up getting a job at Bear

26:23

Stearns, which is the brokerage firm in the financial

26:25

district in New York. It's a big one. So

26:27

she ends up meeting there, and she would commute.

26:30

She met Walter commuting to New York City by

26:32

train from Oceanport. They were on the same commuter

26:34

train together. That's how they met. He's on the

26:36

way to Bear Stearns, and he's on his way

26:38

to the police department. It's

26:40

up north of here, the police department he works in. So

26:43

she was really looking for somebody to devote

26:45

her life to, her friend said. And

26:48

when she met Walter, she's like, there it is.

26:50

Cool, you are a child. The love of my

26:52

life. And also, he's married with... He's been married

26:54

longer than you've been alive. You're 19. Yeah,

26:58

he's got two kids, and she's like, nope, not going to worry

27:00

about any of that stuff. They said

27:02

once she hooked up with Walter, her

27:04

friends all said she had no time

27:06

for anything else. Really? Her

27:09

one friend said it was a whole security bit. She

27:11

wanted someone there all the time. She pushed everybody off

27:13

after she met him. She was one of the only

27:15

people I trusted in the world, and I don't know where to

27:17

turn when I don't have her to talk to. This

27:20

is why. It's very weird. She

27:23

would tell her friends that, listen, don't

27:26

be offended, but I have no time for you anymore. I

27:29

only have time for him. She would tell them that. I

27:31

fell in love and... Is she hot? Yeah,

27:33

I mean, she's fine. She's pretty. What the

27:35

fuck? Yeah. They said until she

27:37

met Walter, she was a great friend. And

27:40

then all of a sudden, she was like, I have no interest in

27:42

you. Fascinating. Yeah. They

27:44

said she was very good sympathetic ear. Not

27:46

anymore, not after Walter. She didn't want to talk

27:49

to anybody. It seems like the girl of your

27:51

dreams when you're 21... When

27:53

you get a girl that's that fucking devoted to

27:55

you... Yeah, you'd feel good. Yeah, look at that.

27:57

...that loves me. At 43 in your marriage. Mary,

28:00

do you think you've bitten off more than

28:02

you can chew here? You know what I

28:04

mean? I got kids. So, yeah, they would...

28:06

This is while he's running for the third

28:08

time for the Oceanport Borough Council. And

28:12

so he's got... Like a true

28:14

politician, he's got things going on. He's got

28:16

some things on the side here. He's

28:18

got fucking the whole thing up. So they would

28:20

hook up in New Jersey motel rooms, all

28:23

class. Jesus. All

28:25

class. He said their first

28:27

date, quote, Mary got in the car and said,

28:29

we didn't have to go to a movie. A

28:31

hotel room would be fine. We

28:35

don't need to go out. We're fucking. That's

28:37

it. Food? Who needs food? We

28:40

don't need that. Let's just go fuck. Give me your

28:42

cock. That's it. I eat

28:44

cock for dinner. It's incredible. He said it was once

28:46

a week after that. What? Oh, yeah. Then

28:49

they suggested, she said, well, why don't we just commute together

28:51

by car so we could save money? So they did. He

28:55

said, so we ended up with more time together

28:57

and there was more chances for motel stops so

28:59

they could hook up more often here. Hey,

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31:46

And now back to the show. Um,

31:50

during the time they're together, which is from

31:52

like fall of 81 through 82 here, she

31:57

gets pregnant twice and has two abortions during

31:59

the year. that time. Yeah, so two

32:01

in less than a year. He's

32:03

doing nothing to ... He doesn't seem like he's

32:05

doing a lot to try to ... That's reckless.

32:07

That's what I mean, especially if you're a married

32:10

man and all this type of shit and you're

32:12

having an affair. Don't be knocking people up. She's

32:14

got to know about this, right? She also got

32:17

a boob job as well. She

32:20

said, I figured if mine were bigger, maybe he wouldn't

32:22

look at other women. That's her quote.

32:24

So it's not for the right ... Yeah, this

32:26

is all a mess. Wow. So

32:29

two days after her first abortion,

32:31

or her second abortion, she

32:34

spoke to Ann on the telephone. Why?

32:37

Yeah, well, Walter had

32:39

left his wife and went to

32:41

move in with her in

32:44

December of 81. And

32:46

then a month later, he moves back out again.

32:49

But anyway, Ann calls here

32:51

after Walter ended up coming home, so this

32:53

is January of 82, and

32:56

said that, quote, if I didn't leave her husband

32:58

alone, she was going to wipe the streets of

33:00

Ocean Port with me. Yikes.

33:03

This is like Carmela Soprano telling you that. She's not

33:06

playing. Because that's how I picture her, like that, but

33:08

yeah. She said the wife also called

33:10

her a tramp and a whore and then hung up on

33:12

her. Yep, that's all about right. That

33:14

sounds about like somebody that is afraid of a divorce.

33:16

Yeah, I think Carmela Soprano said that to the Russian

33:18

girlfriend, like almost exactly. You're a tramp and a whore

33:20

and then hung up on her, and that was that.

33:24

Now Mary said, I said I didn't mean any

33:26

harm. I just needed to be loved, and he

33:28

told me he loved me. She

33:31

doesn't care about that. She's been married for

33:33

20-something years. So

33:35

he doesn't love you. He loves his kids. Yeah,

33:38

absolutely, yeah. So five days after

33:40

Ann is murdered, she,

33:43

Mary, calls the police in

33:45

Hoboken to report a threatening

33:47

phone call. And

33:49

they said that she said an unknown

33:52

man called her and said, Ha ha,

33:54

you're next, and hung up on

33:56

her. So shortly

33:58

after Ann is in

34:00

the ground, she moves into the house with

34:02

the kids and everything. Yeah.

34:06

Walter sister Patricia said she was

34:09

too pushy, too

34:11

possessive, too domineering. And

34:14

she said that the kids didn't want her there. She's

34:17

barely older than them. I mean, it's tough. So

34:20

then shortly before Christmas, she moves out and

34:24

the relationship kind of ends

34:26

at that point. That is because

34:28

Walter found another chick and

34:30

this one wasn't good enough anymore. How is he doing

34:32

it? So he told her, take a hike. This guy

34:35

pulls fucking trim like crazy. Good for him. This is

34:37

what? I don't know. I don't know.

34:39

I use an asshole, apparently, but... I'm not good at it.

34:41

No. I could never do that.

34:43

Wow. Never mind, 21-year-old. That many

34:45

women? I found another one. Yeah.

34:48

So Mary was working as a secretary at

34:50

Bear Stearns at the time and she moved

34:52

to a 30th floor

34:55

apartment on East 95th Street. So

34:57

Upper East Side, Manhattan. She found a woman roommate.

34:59

It was a two bedroom apartment for $1,000 a

35:02

month on the Upper East Side.

35:04

Good luck. That is wild. Yeah.

35:07

That is hilarious. A grand? A

35:09

grand. That is hilarious. Unbelievable.

35:12

So this is Walter's

35:15

sister, Patricia, here. She

35:18

says that it was hard on the kids their

35:20

first holiday season without the mother and then he's

35:22

bringing this girl in and then she's leaving. It's

35:25

really, really strange. She's

35:28

this... Patricia says she's very angry. I love

35:31

how you have to stutter through that because

35:33

you don't want to say Sister Patricia.

35:35

Sister Patricia. Hey, Sister

35:37

Patricia over here. How New York are

35:39

you? Yeah. Her name's Patricia

35:41

Geetsie too. Oh, Jesus Christ. G-I-Z-D-I. So

35:44

I'm like, this is hard because she's married

35:46

to another kid over here. So the...

35:48

yeah. She said she's very

35:50

upset. She says she wrote a poem to

35:53

put her rage into words. Oh. She

35:55

says I was emotional while I was writing it. I felt a lot

35:57

of anger too, even though I was writing about Anne. He,

36:00

whoever did it, is still free, because

36:03

months have gone by. And so

36:05

she writes up a poem here. You got it?

36:07

Let's all go. Oh, yeah. She

36:09

lit up our family with her happy smile.

36:11

Now we have darkness and grief across the

36:14

miles. We visit her grave from

36:16

day to day, and all we can do is

36:18

hope and pray. No,

36:22

it's a shoebox, hallmark greeting level of poem.

36:24

But I mean, she's got emotion in it

36:26

there. Red Durst level rapping. Oh, yeah. That's

36:29

kind of a, yeah. Day and Ray. And

36:31

Day and Ray, and he's got a whole,

36:34

very, very complicated rhyme scheme. So

36:37

she wanted to publicize the poem so people would

36:40

see it and feel compelled to come forward with

36:42

information. Yeah, think about it. Yeah. She

36:44

said, they're not saying anything about the murder in the

36:46

newspapers. It's discouraging. And the little bit that builds up,

36:49

it builds up your hopes. So then

36:51

she said, sometimes I feel I am grieving

36:53

the most, for I was the one that

36:55

would like to boast. Post

36:58

about a sister-in-law as wonderful as Anne. She

37:00

was kind, generous, and always had a helping

37:02

hand. This

37:05

sounds like a fourth grader wrote it. I don't mean

37:07

to be dick, but it's kind of. It's

37:09

very Adam Sandler in Mr.

37:11

D. Yeah, it's that. It's a bad, bad

37:14

greeting card. Roses are red, violets are

37:16

blue, it's what it is. The words

37:18

keep flowing, the questions in mind. Why this

37:20

to her, it wasn't her time. It's

37:25

very night before Christmas. This is a bad

37:27

greeting. This is his process of your greeting.

37:29

Yeah. It's terrible. But she didn't need to

37:31

put this out publicly. I wouldn't put

37:34

any poetry out, especially grief poetry. I

37:36

hope you'll be caught. I know you're insane, you're

37:38

rotten and cruel, whatever your name. I

37:41

think someone wrote that about Jack the Ripper. So

37:44

May 28th, 1983, it's 3 a.m. And

37:50

Mary Williams, Mary Claire Williams is sitting

37:52

in her apartment on the 30th floor

37:54

in the Upper East Side and

37:56

she calls the police. Uh oh. Yes,

37:58

she said, I can't. take the pressure

38:00

anymore. It's about the murder of Anne Carus

38:03

in Long Branch. 3.45,

38:06

she had finished her conversation with police and they said, we're coming

38:08

to the city to talk to you right now at 3.45 in

38:10

the morning. We'll be right

38:12

there. So then she called a lawyer that

38:14

she used to work for while attending the

38:17

secretarial classes at 4 a.m. And

38:20

yeah, so she had kept in touch

38:22

with him a little bit here and there and so she

38:24

needed his help. So she called him and said, you know,

38:26

I'm in this, I'm in some shit. You got to need

38:28

help here. So 6.30 a.m.,

38:31

police call the

38:33

lawyer from her apartment and they told him they

38:35

were returning to Monmouth County with her. There

38:37

were questions to answer and they said she hasn't been

38:39

charged with anything at this point, but they want to

38:41

talk to her and she has information

38:44

about a murder. So then

38:46

the cops are with her. She

38:49

tells them a whole bunch of stuff and they

38:51

say, will you make a phone call that we

38:53

can record? She says, sure. So she

38:55

calls Walter. Yeah,

38:57

she calls Walter. This is from the telephone

38:59

call on May 29th and I'll give you

39:02

the script here. He says, hello. She says,

39:04

hi. Hi, how are you

39:06

doing? You're not working today, she says. Walter

39:08

says, no, no. Remember, I took a three

39:10

day weekend and she said, oh, oh, boy.

39:13

And he said, what? And

39:15

she said, Billy, meaning this county

39:17

investigator, called me back at my

39:20

girlfriend's house and he says, uh-huh.

39:22

He was a little upset. Walter

39:24

says, yeah. She says, because

39:26

I called him so late, you know, because I

39:28

told him I'd like call him about nine o'clock

39:30

and he says, yeah. I called

39:33

him about 1030. Yeah. She says, and he

39:35

said that and he said, well,

39:39

where are you? And I said, I'm in Spring Lake and

39:41

he said, well, it's a little, I'm a little tight. I'm

39:43

a little tied up right now. It's a little late. And

39:46

she says, and oh my God, I'm so upset

39:48

and oh, fuck. So

39:50

she talked to an investigator is what she's saying.

39:52

He says it's a game. He's playing a game

39:54

just like he did with me. Remember he said they

39:56

wanted to see me and they never saw me. I

39:58

thought about that after I. left last night.

40:00

Remember what they did with me? Remember

40:03

that I said Billy and Long Branch

40:05

police, Lieutenant Peter Johns, both called and

40:07

they said they wanted to see me?

40:09

And she said, uh-huh. And he said,

40:11

and how I would react. And

40:13

she says, well, I remember that. My God,

40:15

Walter, he said on the telephone, he said

40:18

that he was making, he was talking with

40:20

a man named Riley, who's a police detective,

40:22

and that he told him some interesting things

40:24

and said, you know, Mary, you should really

40:26

know this Riley. And Walter said,

40:29

yeah, he's playing a game. You don't know Riley. And

40:31

she said, Walter, that's one of the people I told.

40:34

And then she stops. One

40:36

of the people I told. He says,

40:39

quote, you fucking idiot, you fucking idiot.

40:42

That's his response. You

40:44

fucking idiot. So she says,

40:46

what if he talks with Father Bradley? And

40:48

she says, no. And Walter said, no, he

40:51

can't. She said, Walt, he can talk

40:53

with him. And he said, aha, who's Riley? She

40:55

said, I don't know. He's some guy a friend of

40:57

mine brought along to wear when I met

40:59

him for drinks one day. And he said, and

41:02

you just blurted it out to him. She said,

41:04

yeah, I kind of had a few drinks in me. What?

41:07

You can get drunk and then just

41:09

start talking about murder? Murders. He said,

41:11

you fucking idiot. Which

41:13

is like his pet name for her at this point. He

41:17

said, all right, just tell him, just tell him, all

41:19

right, here's the game. You've been in state because you

41:21

were cheating with me. And then she got killed and

41:23

you're putting yourself through a guilt trip. You didn't go

41:25

into any detail with this guy, did you? And she

41:28

said, no, I didn't say a word. I

41:30

just kind of said, yeah, I know a

41:32

man named Riley. So he

41:35

says, no, I mean to Riley, what did you say?

41:37

She said, I told him the whole story. Walter

41:41

says, you fucking idiot. She

41:44

doesn't get it so far. She does not get

41:46

it at all. So he then says, you know,

41:49

or she says, you know, what if they start

41:51

talking to some more friends of mine and some

41:53

people they know? And Walter

41:55

said, what do they know? Yeah, that's a great

41:57

question. What who have you told why? Who

42:00

what the fuck is happening? She said about

42:02

four people know. You

42:04

fucking idiot. Nope, you dumb bitch at

42:06

that point. Went

42:09

from you fucking idiot to you dumb bitch. That's

42:13

incredible. He said, you

42:15

have to keep your mouth shut from now

42:17

on and if anybody says anything, you just,

42:19

you know, he starts that bullshit. You

42:22

say, look, I'm on heavy, a fucking guilt trip, and

42:24

in my mind I already believed, you know, that I

42:27

had something to do with it. You

42:31

dumb fucking idiot bitch. So

42:34

he said, she says, aha, and he says,

42:36

okay, but in fact I didn't and

42:38

Bill, I didn't Billy and I know,

42:40

I don't know what that means. Sure.

42:42

I may have said something to these fucking people, but I

42:45

may have been drunk out of my fucking mind. I was,

42:47

I was drunk out of my mind when I said that

42:49

and from what Walter had told me, I pieced it all

42:51

together and I made myself the villain because I was on

42:53

such a guilt trip. Here's your story.

42:55

I'm giving it to you. I'm giving it to you.

42:57

That's what you tell them. I was felt guilty. That's

43:00

why I said I had an involvement in the murder. So

43:02

she says, Walt, then what if, why

43:04

would he say to me, listen, Mary, he

43:06

say, he said I better start thinking, thinking

43:10

hard and do what's right to make things easier for

43:12

myself. Listen, Walter, if he's getting too

43:14

close to settling it, all right, my God, I think

43:16

we ought to just, I think we ought to turn

43:18

ourselves in because he'll make it easier on us. And

43:21

he says, sure, then what? What? What

43:24

does that do to my kids? And she

43:26

said, I can't worry about your kids. I've got to

43:28

worry about myself. If they're going to solve the case

43:30

and get us, all right, then we're just going to

43:33

sit, that's just going to sit us in jail. And

43:36

he says, you are going to spend the rest of

43:38

your natural life and so am I in fucking prison

43:40

if we open our mouths. If we

43:42

shut up the drunken boast in a fucking bar,

43:44

doesn't mean shit. You fucking

43:46

idiot. You dumb bitch. Dumb bitch. He

43:49

said, if he had that much conclusive evidence, he'd be

43:51

down to Spring Lake to pick you up. Understand

43:55

that? He says he's, let me tell you

43:57

something. And Walt says he's pushing us to

43:59

the limit. She said, you know what

44:01

I think he's doing? Walter said he's,

44:03

and she cuts him off and says, I think

44:05

he knows everything and he wants to help me

44:07

out and so he's not. And

44:09

he says, sure. And they said,

44:12

coming to get me and Walter says, sure. She

44:14

says, he's not gonna, he's gonna let me sweat

44:16

it out and he's gonna maybe give me until

44:18

Tuesday and come get me. I can't be embarrassed

44:20

like that at my job and have him pick

44:23

me up there. It's murder. Your job

44:25

doesn't matter anymore. I think I'd be a lot easier

44:27

if I went to him now. And

44:29

he says, don't do it, Mary, please, hon. Don't

44:32

do it. You'd be a fool if you did

44:34

it. We both know it. Just be fucking

44:37

idiotic as you are a fucking idiot.

44:40

So she says, my God, Walter, they gotta know. This

44:43

is the cops are listening to all this. He

44:46

says, no, they don't have to know anything. They've

44:48

just been fucking fishing. Somebody could

44:50

have just went in and said, look, I don't know how true

44:52

this is. She was a drunk son of a bitch and she

44:54

kept admitting this. If you pull yourself

44:56

together right now and say, no, fuck it.

44:58

How I, Billy, how I was drunk as

45:00

a fucking skunk, I don't know what the

45:02

fuck I said. You're

45:05

home free. They can't do anything.

45:07

And she said, well, he mentioned he said they were

45:09

checking things out on Visa too, his

45:11

Visa card. He said, so, so

45:14

I have a knife here. Don't worry about it.

45:16

Keep your mouth shut. Okay.

45:18

She said, I can't, what? He

45:20

said, keep your mouth shut and we're okay. She

45:23

said, yeah, but the knife that, and

45:25

he says, Mary, shut

45:27

the face, shut the fuck up. Basically.

45:30

She says, when you took me to Woodbridge, that knife wasn't the

45:32

same. It's on the visa bill. He said, it doesn't matter. She

45:35

said, they can go to Herman's and

45:38

check out the knives. And there's, he

45:40

said, so, so what? I'll say, Hey, the

45:42

fucking girl must've made a mistake. I don't

45:44

know anything. Mary, please, please. I beg you,

45:46

please. I'll say she must've rung

45:48

up the wrong fucking product. The wrong knife. Yeah.

45:51

That's all. I don't know what to do.

45:53

I think it would just be a hell of a lot easier

45:55

if we just, and he said, Mary, don't do this. He

45:59

said, went and told. them and

46:01

then Walter says Mary please what more can

46:03

I say but please we have made a

46:05

fucking mistake and we're both paying for it

46:07

now let's not pay anymore and make other

46:09

people pay your parents your work your boss

46:11

every fucking body think about those people I

46:14

think about my kids we've done one fucking

46:16

injustice but if we shut our fucking mouths

46:18

and just say yeah I may have boasted

46:20

Billy but you know come on I was

46:22

fucking drunk out of my mind didn't know

46:24

what I was saying she

46:27

says all right look my girlfriend's coming I'll come

46:29

and listen I got to call Billy to meet

46:31

him he says uh-huh she says I'll have I'll

46:33

call you back I'll have I'll have to call

46:35

you back after I have a meeting with him

46:37

he says Mary please

46:40

I'm begging you with all my heart

46:42

and all of my fucking soul please

46:44

don't be fucking stupid keep your mouth

46:46

shut please she says

46:49

all right listen you're gonna be home listen

46:51

stay home he says I'll be home all

46:53

fucking day I'm not going no way she

46:56

says all right he says I've

46:58

got the runs like you have

47:00

now but we got to keep

47:02

strong okay what like she he wants

47:04

to run not himself look I

47:06

got the shits real bad just

47:08

like you it's like you you dumb shit

47:10

he said we got to be strong this

47:13

this is the time this is the one

47:15

last fucking push she said all

47:17

right well Walter let's say let's

47:19

say it's the one last push okay but we

47:21

don't know what they have okay and let's say

47:24

he spills it out in front of me remember

47:26

when you told me and you went over it

47:28

with me and if they come to me and

47:30

they tell me they've got this case solved and

47:32

solved and then here's how it was done and

47:34

here's how you here's what you did and here's

47:36

remember you planned all that he

47:38

said yeah who's

47:42

the dummy now it's what I mean and

47:44

she said dumb bitch Walter he's ball to

47:46

you dumb fucking idiot she

47:49

said and you said we both deny

47:51

everything uh-huh huh she

47:53

said if you talk I'll deny if

47:55

I talk you'll deny uh-huh she

47:58

says Walter if he knows everything And he

48:00

says look you better just tell us because we'll go easier

48:02

on you if they do that She said

48:04

quote there in the now Walter said they're not

48:07

gonna go easier, honey You're not

48:09

gonna get a deal you're talking about life life

48:11

life the rest of your fucking life Murders

48:13

say murder as they say on the

48:16

wire No deal no nothing

48:18

and you can't claim insanity or any other bullshit

48:20

you went with me to get the knife I

48:22

mean you went with me to get the jacket

48:24

the hood. Well, we planned it. It was perfect.

48:26

We did it and it's over Fucking

48:29

idiot You

48:33

can't say now that you didn't know what the

48:35

fuck was happening if he spills the whole thing

48:37

he tells you don't say Billy I don't know

48:39

what the fuck you're talking about. Honestly, you have

48:41

to be cool. You can be I know you

48:44

can you're tough now Baby pull through it Tape

48:51

fucking rolling why you go

48:54

she says what? What

48:58

I Don't

49:01

know pull through what I don't know what and

49:03

he said pull through it. Yeah, you can do

49:06

it I think he's pushing you to the edge

49:08

They haven't got enough to get an

49:10

indictment or you'd be fucking indicted already on

49:12

this guy's statement. You could be indicted Okay,

49:14

they have they can go get you to a

49:16

grand jury and convince them that you've got

49:19

enough involvement to indict you Okay, she says

49:21

uh-huh He says

49:23

and they have it which means they don't know for

49:25

sure and they need you to collaborate what you fucking

49:27

said to this Guy you could say man. I don't

49:29

know what the fuck I said I was so fucking

49:32

drunk and I did some drugs and some shit. Yeah,

49:34

you know, I just took some drugs She

49:36

said yeah, but you know, I don't do drugs He

49:40

said you can say it you can say anything

49:42

and they can't prove it otherwise just say drugs

49:45

I don't fucking care She

49:47

says alright listen, I'll call you back and

49:49

he says be cool, honey, please you can

49:51

do it. I know you can okay She

49:53

said alright, and he says okay. Keep it

49:55

tight. Be good. Bye. Bye Keep

49:58

it tight story, not

50:00

your ass, you know. And

50:02

she says bye. So that's... Idiot.

50:05

The cops are like, well, okay, we know everything that happened

50:07

now. That was easy. Yeah.

50:10

So what ended up, what happened is Mary

50:13

stabbed Anne 23, 22 times. By

50:17

the way, how long were they married? 22 years. 22

50:19

years. That's pretty amazing, isn't it? Did she

50:21

do it on purpose? No. No? No.

50:25

Just a coincidence. No, she says later, she just fucking...

50:27

Just lost her mind. She's just him saying make sure

50:29

she's dead, make sure she's dead so she can't identify

50:32

you. Oh, wait. So just

50:34

fucking hacking at her till she was pretty sure about it. So

50:37

May 29th is the next day after the phone

50:39

call. Walter is lured to

50:41

the L&M Diner in Ocean Township by

50:43

a phone call from Mary. Meet me

50:45

at the diner. When he got there,

50:47

he's arrested, of course. Yeah. So

50:49

they arrest him and they charge him with

50:52

murder, obviously. They also charge her with murder,

50:54

too. Yeah. I mean, she did

50:56

it. Right. The one who did it,

50:58

you know, so you can't just let her go. They're each

51:00

held in a million dollars bond or bail. The

51:03

prosecutor said they are not seeking the

51:05

death penalty because the crime was committed

51:07

before the death penalty law was signed

51:09

in New Jersey at that time. His

51:12

attorney is fleeing for reduced bail.

51:14

Yeah. Yeah. I

51:17

don't know. He said he's got the runs. He's got

51:19

the runs. There's a lot going on. And a man

51:21

who owns two pieces of property in the state is

51:24

unlikely to flee. I don't know.

51:26

Murder. Yeah. He's

51:28

a big one. Yeah. You'll leave

51:30

your New Jersey property. He's losing both no matter what the outcome. It doesn't matter.

51:33

Yeah. He's going to have to pay

51:35

his fucking lawyer here. Now, the lawyer she called, who she was

51:37

friends with and worked for, can't represent her because he's only licensed

51:39

in New York. So she has to get another

51:41

lawyer. And they said that

51:43

her new lawyer said, I don't think she's resigned

51:45

to anything yet. I don't think she fully realizes

51:48

what she's up against. Yeah. There's

51:50

no way she knows. And they made her seem like, you're

51:52

working with us because you're part of this. You're doing great.

51:54

And she even... I don't know what her

51:56

name actually says about that. I'll leave it to that. So now the

51:58

kids end up being separated from each other. the carousel

52:00

kids. The 12-year-old boy is sent

52:02

to stay with an aunt and the 14-year-old daughter

52:05

to the family of a school friend in Oceanport.

52:07

School friends? So she can stay in the same

52:09

school. Oh, okay. So I don't think it's good

52:11

for them to be split up though. No, and

52:13

I don't like going to a friend rather than

52:16

family. They're 12 and 14. My mom murdered her.

52:18

Yeah, they're 12 and 14. Oh, yeah, it's minor.

52:20

Yeah, minor that age. 14. That's crazy. So now

52:22

a friend of Mary's here said that

52:25

this is the young lady who's like a junior

52:27

in high school while this is happening. She

52:30

said that she saw Mary

52:32

a few weeks before and she said you never would

52:34

have suspected anything was wrong at all. She

52:36

said she doesn't believe that her friend could

52:38

have committed this brutal murder. Even

52:41

though she admitted to it. She said so. Still doesn't think

52:43

she did it. She said if I believe she did it

52:45

it would be like my own mother did it. She

52:47

was like my older sister and I know she wouldn't

52:50

be capable of such a thing. Couldn't even. Well, she

52:52

said she I'm gonna visit her in jail as soon

52:54

as I can. She said I feel like she was

52:56

there whenever I needed her so I'm going to be

52:58

there for her. If she did do it she must

53:00

have been in some state of mind. She was a

53:02

very easy person. An animal type on the court but

53:04

sweet off the court. So yeah,

53:06

they said she's angered by reports that her friend had

53:08

a fascination with men in

53:11

uniform. She

53:13

said I couldn't believe when I read that about her.

53:15

No way was she a cop lover or

53:18

followed uniform guys. No way. So

53:21

she just happened to want to fuck this guy.

53:23

So anyway they figure out that Walter bought a

53:26

knife and a sporting goods for the store and

53:28

charge it to his fucking credit card like an

53:30

idiot. Oh my god. Not even cash. That's how

53:32

dumb are you? He bought the murder weapon on

53:34

credit card. On his own credit card. Oh my

53:37

god. Dipshit. And on that night he

53:39

had Mary Waite hiding

53:41

behind a dumpster in

53:44

a parking lot by the movie theater. For the

53:46

mother of his children. For the mother he said

53:48

yeah she'll be walking by I'll leave and then

53:50

she jumped out and started stabbing the shit out

53:52

of Ann. Wow. She fled

53:55

the scene and went to Atlantic City

53:57

to establish an alibi. She threw

53:59

the murder weapon and into the Atlantic Ocean. Really?

54:01

Yeah, it's fucking, which I mean, that's the first

54:03

smart thing they've done. Her

54:05

purse, which was taken, that

54:07

was, they took it, she said make sure you take the

54:09

purse because then it'll look like a robbery, but 22 stab

54:11

wounds and it'll look like a robbery. Hey

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Spelled babbel.com/truecrime. Rules

57:53

and restrictions may

57:56

apply. She threw

57:58

that into the river. and we'll

58:00

find out what she did with the stuff that

58:02

she had in the purse there. So

58:05

she pleads guilty. She's gonna plead guilty. She

58:07

pleads guilty to the stabbing and she has

58:09

to testify against him. So

58:12

she's described in the newspaper as

58:14

quote, the pale 21-year-old Williams

58:17

admitted to Superior Court Judge John A. Riccardi

58:19

that she and Walter Karas conspired to kill

58:21

his wife on the evening of March 20th,

58:23

1982. Williams

58:25

stabbed the 43-year-old volunteer worker 22

58:28

times with a hunting knife, according to police, and

58:31

she said he planned the whole thing. She

58:34

said that she will

58:37

testify truthfully and all that kind of thing.

58:39

They said this is in sharp contrast to

58:41

the jovial attitude she displayed at her arraignment

58:43

where she was like laughing and giggling and

58:45

shit. They were like, tone that shit down.

58:48

This is insane. What are you doing,

58:50

ma'am? So in return for her guilty

58:53

plea and testifying, they told

58:55

her that the felony murder and armed robbery

58:57

would be dismissed at the time of her

58:59

sentencing and she'd be sentenced only for the

59:02

like a regular murder here. She's charged with armed

59:04

robbery because she took all the shit obviously here.

59:07

So they were going to recommend a prison sentence

59:09

of 30 years with

59:11

up to 15 years of no parole eligibility on

59:13

the murder and conspiracy charge. That's what the prosecution

59:15

is going to recommend. The judge tells her, even

59:17

though you're pleading to this and that's your deal,

59:20

it's up to the court. So you might get

59:22

life. So that's on the table. Are you cool

59:24

with that? And she said, yeah. I

59:27

can't go home. Yeah. What else am I going to

59:29

fucking do at this point? I'm kind of in deep

59:31

at this point. They said, if you realize that if

59:33

the court sentences you to 30 years, you'd not be

59:35

released from prison for a minimum of 15. Do

59:38

you understand that? And she said, yes. And

59:40

they said, are you doing this because you want to

59:42

plead guilty? Is anyone making you do it? And she

59:44

said, no, it's just my conscience. Yeah.

59:47

So there she is in court, spills it all.

59:50

Yeah. Here, five hours of testimony.

59:52

Oh, boy. And during his trial,

59:54

they said it rains from tearful

59:56

confessions, girlish laughter, coy blushes, and

59:59

downcast guilty. Glances the

1:00:01

whole damn it Wow she met him on the

1:00:03

path train in fall of 81 she

1:00:05

tells the whole story She said when they she

1:00:07

left him in Christmas of 82. She

1:00:09

said I just I didn't love him anymore But

1:00:11

I just couldn't handle the guilt so

1:00:15

yeah, she said that Helping

1:00:18

police implicate him was quote fun.

1:00:21

She said She's

1:00:23

not right in the head. No. She said

1:00:25

it's like playing cop and I always wanted

1:00:27

to be a cop. No It's

1:00:30

not it's like they were making you know It's

1:00:32

like you murdered somebody yeah teamed up with the

1:00:34

cops to get your accomplished Like when bubbles thought

1:00:36

he was a cop and they're like, you're not

1:00:38

a fucking we pay you $20 to get in

1:00:40

fella I got some hats

1:00:42

on people's heads. Yeah Wow,

1:00:45

that's wild. So they said that his

1:00:48

attorney said that she Planned

1:00:50

the murder herself and always with the intention

1:00:52

of implicating him. She said he said she

1:00:54

considered it a game Yeah,

1:00:57

so but we know from the phone

1:00:59

call that Sunday No, we planned it.

1:01:01

He said those three words together the

1:01:03

prosecution by the way This is fucking

1:01:05

hilarious there when they close their case,

1:01:07

they play the tape and then say

1:01:09

prosecution rests That's

1:01:11

the end of their presentation like oh by the way

1:01:14

the hammer is down now. Yeah Peace

1:01:18

out We're

1:01:21

gonna cross anybody Let

1:01:26

me know when you're ready. Okay So

1:01:29

she said between February 16th and

1:01:31

March 20th 1982. They began to

1:01:33

figure out different methods of killing an There

1:01:37

ones they chose didn't take were in shooting

1:01:39

her. You know, you know, it's kind of

1:01:41

cliche staging a

1:01:43

bathtub accident tough

1:01:46

Killing her with an overdose of drugs and the

1:01:49

fight and devising a mechanical failure in her cars

1:01:51

brakes Yeah, so she'd like pass out and careen

1:01:53

off the road into the ocean These are all

1:01:55

just a cold case file.

1:01:57

Yeah, he's an exalt. He said then they said arm

1:02:00

robbery and a stabbing ought to do it, you know?

1:02:03

Wow. Nobody will see that. He coached her how to

1:02:05

use the knife, even taped the handle with electrical tape so it

1:02:07

wouldn't slip and she wouldn't cut herself. He told her what's going

1:02:09

to happen. Oh, he told her exactly what to do. There's going

1:02:11

to be blood everywhere. Yeah. You got

1:02:14

to hang on to this thing. She was to wait by

1:02:16

the movies and he was going to leave

1:02:18

her momentarily. She said he was going

1:02:20

to look like the perfect husband in front of

1:02:22

everyone's eyes, so he would take her out frequently

1:02:24

to establish that, to go

1:02:26

out all the time. Oh, this is normal that we do. Yeah,

1:02:28

this is the thing. This is just the one time they go

1:02:30

out. I wasn't working on their relationship. Oh, isn't that sweet? It's

1:02:33

so nice. What a good guy. Yeah. So

1:02:35

during the stabbing, she said all that ran through her

1:02:37

mind was Walter's words to her. He

1:02:40

just kept saying, make sure she's dead, make sure she's dead.

1:02:42

Don't talk to her because then if she doesn't

1:02:44

die, she'll be able to identify you. Make sure

1:02:47

she's dead. Wow. And they said, did you hear

1:02:49

her make any sound? And she said she gurgled.

1:02:52

She said, I didn't want her to be killed. I just wanted

1:02:54

him to get a divorce. That's what

1:02:56

she said. She headed for Atlantic

1:02:58

City after that, threw her bloody clothes in

1:03:01

the ocean, which seems like a weird place

1:03:03

to do it. I just throw it

1:03:05

in an Atlantic City casino dumpster. There's

1:03:07

worse shit in there. No one knows. She's

1:03:09

dropping on the corner in Atlantic City. There's fucking people in

1:03:11

those. There's blood down there. Yeah, there's like prostitutes in there

1:03:13

and shit. People just threw them away when they were done

1:03:15

with them. It's awful. There's blood

1:03:17

clothes there. She said she took out $60 in

1:03:20

cash out of Anne's pocketbook, along with a gold

1:03:22

crucifix and a bit lighter. She

1:03:24

said, because it worked and I smoke. That

1:03:27

was useful to me. So I kept it. She

1:03:29

said she threw the bag in the ocean, checked into

1:03:31

the ritz in Atlantic City and went out to the

1:03:34

Playboy Club to gamble. She

1:03:36

said she won in gambling and

1:03:39

paid for her Hertz rent a car in cash the

1:03:41

next day. She tried

1:03:43

to get the blood stains off the rug and

1:03:45

steering wheel of the car, but she said then

1:03:47

she gave up. She said, either

1:03:49

it's my blood or it's not. I don't

1:03:52

care. I just want to be caught. She

1:03:54

recalled thinking. Wow. Wow. She

1:03:56

said that he kept his distance from her for several

1:03:58

weeks for decorum's sake. She

1:04:00

said, oh, he drilled this into my

1:04:02

head good. He said that if his

1:04:05

in-laws, especially his brother-in-law Tony Gaida. Tony's

1:04:08

a bad man. If he thought we had anything

1:04:10

to do with it, he'd kill us both. Both?

1:04:14

Yeah. No, Tony Gaida's gonna fucking kill you

1:04:16

if you kill his sister and your friend. He doesn't care. Yeah,

1:04:19

he's dealing with a huge crazy Italian family.

1:04:21

It's not good. You don't kill one of

1:04:24

the sisters. This guy was seated in

1:04:26

the front row too. Like you bet

1:04:28

your ass I would've killed you. I'm gonna get you. Still

1:04:30

might. I'm gonna be honest with you. You're still here,

1:04:32

ain't you? You're still here. I don't know. So,

1:04:35

she said on April 10th, which was less than

1:04:37

three weeks after the murder, and when quote, we

1:04:39

were in the clear, that's when she started spending

1:04:41

time with them. In the clear? In the clear.

1:04:44

It's been 20 days since the murder. 20 days? It's

1:04:46

not solved. Yep. They first saw

1:04:48

each other by arranging an accidental meeting while

1:04:51

he took his children to the Museum of Natural History

1:04:53

in New York City. Just be there. We'll be there

1:04:55

at this time. Hey, oh, how are you doing? And

1:04:58

then she then accompanied him to a

1:05:00

Lions Club convention in Atlantic City the

1:05:02

last weekend in May, but said, she

1:05:05

said, but could not attend the

1:05:07

social events because he said, I don't want you to

1:05:09

be seen with me because it's too soon. Like you're

1:05:11

my wife. It was very often. In June, she began

1:05:13

to live most of the week at their home, and

1:05:15

they even took a vacation in the Poconos, which we've

1:05:18

done. Oh, Jesus Christ. We know what that's about from

1:05:20

your stupid opinion. Yeah, that is fuck mountain. Yeah, you

1:05:22

should definitely listen to your stupid opinions. There's a thing

1:05:24

on the Poconos and everything else you could think of.

1:05:27

The summer after the murder, while the children

1:05:29

were away at camp. Wow. Had

1:05:32

a nice time. She did tell a bunch of people about

1:05:34

the murder during her stay at the house, and

1:05:37

she said she told two different priests

1:05:39

during confession. Really? You can't

1:05:41

have a chick whose this Catholic helped you kill

1:05:43

somebody because she will tell a priest. She's

1:05:47

going to tell a priest. That's just it. Yeah.

1:05:49

She said, that's fucking funny. So when

1:05:51

he learned of her confessions, he said,

1:05:53

quote, you fucking idiot. You

1:05:56

know, priests can quit, don't you? Like

1:05:58

he might not be a priest next week. Right. Fucking

1:06:01

jackass. So by Christmas of 82, she

1:06:03

said she was ready to leave, partly

1:06:05

because of discipline problems she was encountering

1:06:07

with the children. Oh, she couldn't do

1:06:09

that. It's almost like you killed their mother and they're upset about

1:06:11

it. It's almost like they now have mental problems. Weird. They

1:06:14

don't have a mom. Strange. And a stranger is

1:06:16

telling them what to do. A stranger who's barely

1:06:18

more than a child who's telling them what to

1:06:20

do. Strange, taking their mom's place. Telling them what

1:06:22

to do. She said, she said, I said to

1:06:25

him, I'll always love you. And he said, I'll

1:06:27

always love you. You know the

1:06:29

normal things you say when you're breaking up. She said,

1:06:32

she said, and I said, we'll always

1:06:34

have this thing, meaning the murder to

1:06:36

keep us together. Holy shit.

1:06:39

And they asked her, of course, again, how do you feel about him

1:06:41

now? And she said, I'm just angry at him. So

1:06:44

his defense is

1:06:46

that she's a vindictive young woman

1:06:49

who wove a web of deceit around her

1:06:51

former lover after he broke up with her.

1:06:53

I mean, yeah, that's the only path you've

1:06:55

got. She said, the

1:06:57

admissions on tape, how do you explain

1:07:00

that, were only platitudes uttered to a

1:07:02

confused young girl who was constantly harassing

1:07:04

him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He went through,

1:07:06

this is what we did to kill my wife. What

1:07:09

are you talking about? That's a platitude? Yeah, yeah. Holy

1:07:11

shit. They called the 15-year-old daughter to

1:07:13

the stand. Oh, fuck. Which is

1:07:15

crazy. She said she received a

1:07:17

4 a.m. telephone call shortly after her

1:07:20

father broke up with Mary, from

1:07:22

Mary. And she answered

1:07:24

the phone and she said, quote, your father killed

1:07:26

your mother. She

1:07:29

just rat them out. Yes, wild. And

1:07:32

then she called back and apologized later and

1:07:34

said, no, I was just upset. That's why

1:07:36

I said that. She wrote

1:07:38

to Christine a quote, I didn't mean what I said.

1:07:40

I was just angry and upset for the way you

1:07:42

and your little Walter treated me while I was dating

1:07:44

your father. She describes that I

1:07:47

love your father more than most people and

1:07:49

the love we share is more than most

1:07:51

people have in a lifetime. And

1:07:54

she said to put your mother's murder

1:07:56

in proper perspective and let the memories of

1:07:58

your mom live on inside you. And

1:08:02

then Christina said don't at the last line don't

1:08:04

feel cheated for the time you didn't have with

1:08:06

your mom. Oh That

1:08:08

is fucking weird growth super weird.

1:08:10

So yeah, the defense attorney said

1:08:13

listen Yeah, she's fucking

1:08:15

nuts Said they took her

1:08:17

to a psychiatrist over here. Right? Okay, so

1:08:19

they said she's not she can't be trusted

1:08:21

because she's crazy She

1:08:23

said that presented psychiatric testimony John

1:08:25

dr. John P motley said after

1:08:27

two clinical interviews with her with

1:08:29

the murderous as the paper calls

1:08:32

her He diagnosed her as suffering

1:08:34

from borderline personality disorder, which okay

1:08:36

this that sounds about right She

1:08:39

said he'd explained it this way, which is

1:08:41

a really weird way of explaining There's a

1:08:43

definite way to explain this she said he said

1:08:45

quote. It means she's on the borderline of being

1:08:47

pretty sick Which is not what it

1:08:50

means She

1:08:52

projected the responsibility of the murder of

1:08:54

mrs. Caris entirely on mr Caris at

1:08:56

no time does she indicate she was

1:08:58

acting other than doing it for him

1:09:01

he said such denial and projection is consistent

1:09:03

with her disorder and he believes that Mary

1:09:05

should not be punished for the murder or

1:09:08

she She believes that she shouldn't be punished

1:09:10

for the murder and that she shows no

1:09:12

remorse or concern for the deceased. I

1:09:14

agree with that Yeah, she certainly doesn't she

1:09:16

was more upset that the kids were mean

1:09:19

to her Yeah, and she killed a person

1:09:21

so they said that demonstrates the skewed perception

1:09:23

symptomatic of borderline disorder other manifestations of the

1:09:25

illness are on display Like

1:09:27

narcissism hostility resentment feelings of dependency paranoid

1:09:30

fantasies and the tendency toward intense and

1:09:32

unstable Interpersonal relationships yeah, she's super fucked

1:09:34

up in the she like the ones

1:09:37

that push you to fire Yeah, and

1:09:39

when she gets upset she she

1:09:41

goes the fucking furthest furthest extreme that she can

1:09:44

go to stick with the Sopranos She's though. She's

1:09:46

your friend who hit Tony with the steak the

1:09:48

Mercedes She wanted him to need them to come

1:09:50

back and punch her that's what you want. It's

1:09:52

yeah, it's a person else She wants the drama

1:09:55

it could be anybody, but yeah, that's how it

1:09:57

goes. It's a fucking steak. Yeah, I love it

1:10:00

love when he walks in and Junior says, what do you

1:10:02

eat and steak? As he walks in, he smells it. That's

1:10:04

the funniest fucking lie. So he,

1:10:07

the doctor went on to say, she stated

1:10:09

that she had no choice, that Walter planned

1:10:11

it, but she had to carry it out.

1:10:14

And the doctor said it is impossible to determine

1:10:16

if, you know, as Mary is

1:10:18

accurately perceived and related to

1:10:20

the events. So we don't know. Walter

1:10:23

testifies. Unbelievable. He's got to. He

1:10:25

has to. Awesome. The

1:10:27

only thing he can do. Oh, I wish I could

1:10:29

have been. Watching him perform. If only I wasn't just

1:10:31

one year old. Yeah. That would have been, yeah. If

1:10:33

only we weren't fucking events at the time. So

1:10:37

the, he details his affair.

1:10:40

He said that she came up to him

1:10:42

in 1981. She

1:10:44

was quote, she walked up to me and whispered in

1:10:47

my ear, are you a cop? And

1:10:49

that's how they got started. I

1:10:51

don't know. Roger J. Council

1:10:53

father J. He said quote, quite honestly, I was 42 and

1:10:56

she was a very young girl and I was quite

1:10:58

flattered by her advances toward me. Yeah, that is nice.

1:11:00

Yeah. That sounds pretty good. He

1:11:02

described her as a flighty young girl who

1:11:04

contrived to meet up with him as often

1:11:07

as possible during their daily commute. He said

1:11:09

she was making a pass for me. So

1:11:13

yeah, he said that he can, this,

1:11:15

this affair contributed to his straining marriage.

1:11:17

Well, no shit. Yeah. If

1:11:20

you're fucking someone, he said, I had taken an attitude. I

1:11:22

was disinterested. I wasn't much of a father around the house.

1:11:25

And then his wife told me to get

1:11:27

out of the house. So he checked into a YMCA

1:11:29

in North Jersey. Oh God, you can stay

1:11:31

there? Back then, yeah. It's fun to stay at

1:11:33

the YMCA. Yeah. That was

1:11:36

a whole drive. That's a leeroy for sure, but I didn't know you could

1:11:38

live. No, no, no. People used to stay

1:11:40

at the Y. They were like, hot? Yeah, you could stay in

1:11:42

the Y. It was like a cheap hotel. Jesus Christ. But

1:11:45

back in the day, like the fifties and sixties,

1:11:47

that was like where people would go. That's

1:11:50

gross. It was a cheap place to go. I got a planner's

1:11:52

wart from the YMCA. No,

1:11:54

no. She said she spent... He

1:11:57

said he never slept there, though. Instead,

1:11:59

he spent... several nights sleeping in

1:12:01

railroad cabooses like

1:12:04

a hobo. Yeah. Yeah. He

1:12:06

went to sleep in rail cars. He said that

1:12:08

when Mary learned that he was homeless, quote, it was

1:12:11

like Christmas. She got very excited and told me to

1:12:13

bring my clothes. She said she couldn't have me sleeping

1:12:15

on the railroad. Oh

1:12:17

my. Yeah. He said I told

1:12:19

her she introduced him to a friend as her

1:12:21

boyfriend and he said, quote, I told her that

1:12:23

that was not so. I was not her boyfriend.

1:12:26

We were friends and we were having a relationship.

1:12:29

We're fucking, we're friends who

1:12:31

fuck. Okay. I'm not your

1:12:33

boyfriend. You're a boyfriend. Yeah. He

1:12:36

said that he lived with

1:12:38

Williams from November 81 to January 82 when he moved

1:12:40

back in with his wife and that's when she called

1:12:42

her and called her a tramp and a whore. And

1:12:46

he said that he disputed everything she said.

1:12:48

He said he never gave her a pre-engagement

1:12:50

ring, which she said he did. He

1:12:53

also said that he had little to do

1:12:55

with Williams finding an apartment and that made

1:12:57

their meetings more convenient. He said that he

1:13:00

never promised to divorce his wife or

1:13:02

anything like that. He does admit that he went

1:13:04

to a store in lower Manhattan with her to

1:13:06

purchase a ski jacket, but said he did it

1:13:08

only as a favor for her and he hadn't

1:13:10

seen her in more than a month. So he

1:13:13

went. She asked him to meet her after

1:13:15

work with his car because she had to buy a large

1:13:17

package that would be too clumsy to take home on the train.

1:13:20

He thought the jacket was a gift for her brother.

1:13:22

He said, just as we were getting ready to leave

1:13:24

the store, she decided to buy a ski mask because

1:13:27

her brother would get a kick out of it, quote

1:13:29

unquote. So

1:13:31

he testified that they purchased the jacket and ski

1:13:33

mask for her to wear during the murder. That's

1:13:35

what she had testified. This is what she was

1:13:37

supposed to wear. No, I was just giving people

1:13:39

some gifts. He said she just wanted to go

1:13:41

shopping. He said he

1:13:43

brought her to Manhattan for an abortion. He said, quote,

1:13:45

she told me she was pregnant. I was a real

1:13:47

hero. I asked her what she was going to do

1:13:50

about it. She told me she wanted to have an

1:13:52

abortion. And

1:13:54

she said it was the first of two pregnancies

1:13:56

there. And she said that was

1:13:58

a topic of heated telephone conversation. conversation between

1:14:02

Mary and Anne. She didn't

1:14:04

like that. Yeah. Anne found

1:14:06

out. Anne found out. Oh, jeez. I guess

1:14:08

she called one time Mary and Anne answered.

1:14:10

Walter said, quote, my wife asked if it

1:14:12

was that bitch on the phone. Then she

1:14:14

grabbed the telephone, called her a tramp and

1:14:17

a few other words. She went

1:14:19

at her in a way I've never really seen Anne

1:14:21

do before. She did say she would wipe the streets

1:14:23

of Oceanport with her and then Anne went silent. I

1:14:26

gotta say, that's fucking great. I've

1:14:29

never seen that. He was probably like, oh, my dick got rock hard

1:14:31

when she started saying that. We fucked

1:14:33

for hours. Yeah. Then Anne looked

1:14:36

at him and said, quote, you had an abortion

1:14:38

with her? And yeah,

1:14:40

quote, Anne was really religious and it really

1:14:42

messed her mind up. His wife then told

1:14:44

Anne of the trouble she had experienced in

1:14:47

conceiving children and then hung up. Anne

1:14:49

was very upset that Mary had an abortion with

1:14:51

my child, which is the opposite

1:14:54

of what Carmella would have been like, I'll kick the

1:14:56

fucking, I'll kick that baby out your ass out. You

1:14:59

don't need an abortion. I'll do it myself because that was her all things.

1:15:01

She was so scared Tony was going to do that. Anne

1:15:05

was upset that his

1:15:07

baby was aborted. That's crazy. Yep.

1:15:11

So anyway, he said that basically that he never, he

1:15:13

had no part of this. It's all her and I

1:15:15

don't know what the hell she's talking about. I

1:15:18

knocked her up twice. I'm sorry I made her crazy.

1:15:20

Yeah, that's it. So I don't know. She

1:15:22

was just making up stories and plugging holes, he said, which is

1:15:24

a weird way to put it. You

1:15:27

can't say that. A,

1:15:29

you've had abortions from having so much sex

1:15:31

with this man and the wife had so

1:15:33

many holes in her. You can't say anything

1:15:36

about holes. No holes. That's what I

1:15:38

mean. It's terrible. The prosecutor said

1:15:40

to him, you wanted to play this game and keep

1:15:42

playing this game. So somewhere along the line, you could

1:15:44

get the brass ring and go to bed with her.

1:15:46

She is terrorizing you and your family and you still

1:15:48

want to spend your weekends with her. Is

1:15:51

that right, you fucking idiot? Vertic comes in,

1:15:53

seven man, five woman jury and

1:15:55

six and a half hours of deliberation. They asked

1:15:57

for the tape again. Yeah,

1:16:00

like let's let's listen to that again. Can

1:16:03

you get us a sick? Tape a

1:16:05

sick beat do that. Yeah, yeah, it's like a

1:16:07

mixtape would be good if because I want to

1:16:09

hear different shit He has

1:16:11

found guilty Yeah of complicity to commit

1:16:13

murder and armed robbery felony murder and

1:16:15

conspiring to commit murder felony murder and

1:16:18

armed robbery So all those multiple counts

1:16:21

bad counts found guilty on everything Now

1:16:24

the sentencing for him you sir may

1:16:26

fuck off 70 years No

1:16:30

parole for 35 He's

1:16:33

44. He's gonna be that's 79.

1:16:35

Yeah, that's not good luck chief. You're not fucking

1:16:37

any 21 year olds then I'll tell you that

1:16:39

much So the prosecutor said

1:16:41

obviously I'm happy with the verdict I think

1:16:43

the evidence indicated unquestionably that he was guilty

1:16:45

of the crime therefore. I think the system

1:16:47

worked Yeah, he's never getting pussy

1:16:50

ever again ever again over. It's all over for

1:16:52

especially not young put That

1:16:54

young pussy. I don't think he's gonna even get no more

1:16:56

new pussy No, no, I'll be like what you just got

1:16:58

out of jail for murder murdered your wife I'm never fucking

1:17:01

you then again if he's still alive. There's not a lot

1:17:03

of men alive at that age I think any dick they

1:17:05

can get fuck it all yeah His

1:17:08

defense defense attorney maintains his client was

1:17:10

caught in a web of deceit woven

1:17:13

around him by a spurned and vengeful

1:17:15

Young woman who decided to implicate him

1:17:17

in the murder after he began seeing

1:17:20

another woman so she

1:17:22

gets sentenced as well and She

1:17:25

gets you ma'am. Yeah, they fuck off 30 years

1:17:28

in prison. Yeah, no parole for 15 So

1:17:30

the judge went with the prosecuting guideline

1:17:32

and she went to the woman's correctional

1:17:34

institution in Clinton. Oh my god, not

1:17:36

good The time oh

1:17:39

boy. Yeah, not great and she's eligible

1:17:41

in 15 years. She's out. Oh,

1:17:43

she's out. Yeah Oh, yeah way out like and

1:17:45

out there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean

1:17:48

She's wacko and out of the place to tux

1:17:50

from something from your stupid opinion. She's out out.

1:17:52

Yeah No,

1:17:55

she's out out. So there you go. Oh my

1:17:57

god. There is Long Branch, New Jersey. What a

1:17:59

story even out for... she's in her

1:18:01

60s now but... She

1:18:03

changed her name, right? It's pretty common.

1:18:05

Mary Williams? Yeah. There's

1:18:08

a million Mary Williams. That's a dangerous broad. Oh, she's

1:18:10

dangerous. Oh boy. And he's like,

1:18:12

wow, I found someone who's dumb enough to

1:18:14

commit my murder for me basically. And he's

1:18:16

a fucking awful scumbag. And I can call

1:18:18

her a dumb bitch to her face. You

1:18:20

fucking idiot. She's like, I know. I

1:18:23

know. No. God damn it.

1:18:25

If you're 21, you hold the fucking... you have the power.

1:18:27

You have the power. Especially if you have a vagina and

1:18:29

you're 21, you have even more power. You're the winner. Yeah,

1:18:32

he's once... Don't care how much money he has.

1:18:34

You're still the breadwinner. You're still a breadwinner. So

1:18:36

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