0:00

You can save every day by shopping

0:02

at Whole Foods Market. Seriously. Don't just

0:04

go for the big sales. Walk the

0:06

store and see the savings for yourself

0:09

in the seafood department. Look for the

0:11

yellow low price sign on Whole Foods

0:13

Market responsibly farmed salmon. This fish is

0:15

perfect for the grill. Buttery, fatty, yet

0:18

lean, nice thick fillets. I'm getting hungry

0:20

just thinking about it. And I know

0:22

I can get it at a great

0:24

price. There's so many ways to save

0:27

at Whole Foods Market. Now you know.

0:30

Before we get started, a heads up. This

0:33

episode contains strong language and mentions suicide.

0:35

It may not be appropriate for some

0:37

listeners. In

0:41

1978, Cleve Jones and his

0:43

circle of gay friends in San Francisco were

0:45

trying to solve a problem. About

0:48

how we need a symbol to unify

0:50

us. Across the country,

0:53

gay people were starting to recognize themselves

0:55

as part of a broader, politicized identity

0:57

group. And the movement was searching

0:59

for a visual marker to rally around. The

1:02

options that were out there were imperfect. There

1:07

was the lambda. The Greek letter L. What

1:10

the hell does that mean? Lesbians

1:12

had the labrys, a double-sided axe. Again,

1:16

kind of obscure. There

1:18

were intertwined gender symbols. Two

1:20

males or two females. Sounds

1:23

dreadfully binary now, doesn't it? There

1:25

was also the pink triangle. Today

1:28

it's synonymous with the AIDS activism of ACT

1:30

UP. But in the 70s, it

1:32

was known only as the symbol the Nazis

1:34

used to mark gay prisoners in concentration camps.

1:37

And I remember somebody once saying

1:40

to me, what's wrong with the

1:42

pink triangle? Hitler?

1:47

For a liberation movement to come together,

1:49

it does need what the pink triangle

1:52

offers. A shared history of oppression and

1:54

struggle, pain and loss. But

1:56

it also needs an affirming narrative of

1:58

belonging and joy. In

2:01

1978, the Year of the Briggs Initiative,

2:03

that's what the gay community was looking for

2:05

— a symbol of hope. In

2:08

San Francisco's Gay Freedom Day, a precursor

2:10

to what we now call pride was

2:13

the perfect opportunity to create something new.

2:16

So I began to have this idea that

2:18

we could have something to answer in the

2:20

pink triangle. Gilbert Baker,

2:22

who died in 2017, was helping lead

2:25

the decorations committee for Gay Freedom

2:27

Day. He was a drag queen

2:29

and a whiz with a sewing machine. This

2:31

audio is from a talk he gave in 2012. The

2:34

thing for me is I'm an artist. That

2:36

was always when activists came from years of

2:38

making gowns and dresses and leave

2:41

calling up, meaning a protest banner for some

2:43

march. He had long hair.

2:45

He was very dramatic. At

2:47

one point he said, I don't know if I

2:49

could ever really be close friends with anybody who's

2:51

never taken LSD. Gilbert's

2:54

co-chair on the decorations committee was a

2:56

garment dyer with a priceless 1970s name.

3:00

I was going around as Fairy Argyle

3:02

Rainbow because I loved rainbows so much.

3:08

Today Fairy Argyle Rainbow goes by

3:11

Lynn Segerblum. In 1978, she

3:14

was 22 years old and working for a

3:16

fashion designer. Gay Freedom Day

3:18

was a big opportunity for her, the

3:20

fabric dyer, and Gilbert, the master sewer

3:22

to show what they could do. Near

3:25

the end of the parade route that

3:27

day, marchers would walk through United Nations

3:29

Plaza where there were two 80-foot flagpoles

3:31

just begging to be gussied up. The

3:34

organizers, they said, want to do

3:36

something with the flagpoles? According

3:39

to Gilbert's memoir, the vision of a

3:41

rainbow came to him while tripping on

3:43

acid and dancing under a disco ball

3:45

with cleave. It's all

3:47

the colors. It's the

3:49

rainbow of humanity.

3:52

He said it's a beautiful freak of nature.

3:56

I like that. Lynn remembers

3:58

it differently. for

6:00

the stars. Lynn says it took

6:02

three people to load each flag into the bed

6:04

of a truck. They were so

6:07

big, no one was sure they would

6:09

actually flap. I was worried,

6:11

yes. I just thought, I see it in

6:13

my mind. Let's see if we can do

6:15

this. Hello?

6:19

Hi, Scoop, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay,

6:21

we're on the air. Yeah, it's coming over.

6:23

Can we go on the air?

6:25

Yes. Fuck

6:28

this and fuck that. Fuck Britain, fuck this

6:30

crap. Well that is the

6:32

Bay Area Committee Against the Briggs Initiative. They're

6:34

right in front of me. And the second

6:36

and third group in the parade was lesbian

6:39

teachers and gay teachers. They

6:42

were chatting out of the closet and into the school. The

6:46

slogan for Gay Freedom Day was, come

6:48

out with joy, speak out for justice.

6:51

An estimated 350,000 people

6:54

flooded into the streets, almost twice as

6:56

many as the year before, which was

6:58

already the biggest gay demonstration ever. I

7:01

think Briggs will probably win, but we're going to

7:03

try our dandruff and display every bit of energy

7:05

we have to counteract it. The

7:11

parade may have been the largest gathering in the

7:14

U.S. for any reason in the 1970s. People

7:17

came from all over to be surrounded

7:20

by their fellow gays, out in public,

7:22

admiring each other and demanding respect. Here

7:25

are our gay fathers. Some

7:28

really gorgeous men out here today.

7:33

The San Francisco Gay Freedom Day marching band

7:36

and twirling corps. Oh,

7:39

and are they twirling? Twirling up a storm.

7:45

The whole parade was a marvel. And

7:48

near the end of the route, when

7:50

all those marchers approached United Nations Plaza,

7:52

they saw something magical. Two

7:55

colossal rainbow creations flapping in

7:57

the wind. It

8:00

worked. Everybody was elated.

8:02

People were just smiling and like, oh my God.

8:06

Tens of thousands of people

8:08

just beaming and pointing so

8:11

blown away by it. What

8:17

do you think of the bridge? Uh. You're

8:20

two in the middle of it that's out. Wonderful,

8:23

wonderful. After

8:27

many years and a few design

8:29

tweaks, the rainbow flag, that beautiful

8:31

freak of nature, would become the

8:34

international symbol for the LGBTQ community.

8:37

But on this June day in 1978, it

8:40

was a vision of a better future. The

8:42

reason so many of the people at

8:44

Gay Freedom Day were working and fighting

8:47

and coming out to stop John Briggs.

8:50

Not just to escape the bad stuff, but

8:52

to get more of the good stuff, more days

8:54

like this one. This

9:00

is Slow Burn, Gaze Against Briggs. I'm

9:02

your host, Christina Kottirucci. Just

9:05

four months after the first gay rainbow

9:07

flags flew over San Francisco, all

9:10

of California would decide what kinds of

9:12

lives gay people deserved to live. Activists

9:15

on both sides of the Briggs Initiative were

9:17

honing their pitches and fanning out across the

9:20

state to make their cases to voters. As

9:23

Election Day approached, they'd find themselves

9:25

locked in a heated public debate,

9:27

with one side preying on fear,

9:29

and the other campaigning for empathy. Common

9:32

sense, of course, tells people that

9:34

homosexuality is a most repulsive lifestyle.

9:37

It is not only repulsive, it's

9:39

immoral. Stop

9:41

and think how weak his argument

9:43

is for heterosexuality if the senator thinks

9:46

that one gay teacher can

9:48

change all society. This

9:52

is episode five, Strange

9:55

Bedfellows. There's

10:03

now a game-changing product to use before

10:05

a night out with drinks. It's called

10:07

Z-Biotics. Let's face it, after

10:09

a night with drinks, it's tough to bounce

10:11

back the next day. You have to

10:13

make a choice. You can either have a

10:16

great night or a great next day. Z-Biotics

10:18

is a surefire way to wake

10:21

up feeling fresh after a night

10:23

of drinking. Z-Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink

10:25

is the world's first genetically engineered

10:28

probiotic. It was invented by PhD

10:30

scientists to tackle rough mornings after

10:32

drinking. Here's how it works. When

10:35

you drink, alcohol gets converted into a

10:37

toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this

10:40

byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for

10:42

your rough next day. Z-Biotics

10:44

produces an enzyme to break this

10:47

byproduct down. Just remember to

10:49

make Z-Biotics your first drink of the night,

10:51

drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow.

10:54

Go to zbiotics.com/slowburn to

10:56

get 15% off

10:58

your first order when you use

11:00

slowburn at checkout. Z-Biotics is backed

11:03

with a 100% money-back guarantee, so

11:05

if you're unsatisfied for any reason,

11:07

they'll refund your money, no questions

11:09

asked. Remember to head

11:11

to zbiotics.com/slowburn and use the code

11:13

slowburn at checkout for 15% off.

11:21

Despite the massive turnout for Gay Freedom Day.

11:24

Despite all the grassroots organizing, and despite

11:26

the droves of gay people coming out

11:28

to everyone they met, the

11:30

reality was that John Briggs' gay teacher

11:32

ban still looked certain to win. In

11:36

early 1978, polls showed that

11:38

70% of Californians

11:40

supported Proposition 6, and

11:42

gay activists like Cleve Jones didn't think they

11:45

had much of a chance to turn those

11:47

numbers around. The general

11:49

feeling was that we just had to keep engaging

11:51

in battle after battle that we would lose. But

11:54

every time we had this battle, there were

11:56

more stories, there were more editorials, there was

11:59

more exposure. Even if they

12:01

lost the battle against Briggs, this was the

12:03

time to show the state and the country

12:05

who they really were. Everybody

12:07

would understand that, yes, these

12:10

people exist. There's rather a

12:12

lot of them. And

12:15

they probably live on our block, go

12:17

to our church, work in our workplace,

12:19

or in our family. These

12:22

people, gay people, weren't confined to

12:24

the growing gabrehoods in San Francisco

12:26

and Los Angeles. When it's

12:28

all done and the dust settles, people need

12:30

to know we live in Modesto. People need

12:33

to know we live in Bakersfield. At

12:36

the ballot box in November, the votes coming

12:38

from inland California would be worth just as

12:41

much as those from the coast. So Cleve

12:43

joined an effort to help gay people in

12:45

small towns fight the Briggs Initiative on their

12:47

own turf. The general scenario

12:49

was I would take a gray-out bus

12:52

out to California's Great Central Valley. Oh, and

12:55

I would always dress very, very carefully.

12:58

Really toned it down. I would wear,

13:00

you know, slacks

13:02

and a nice shirt, no

13:05

political buttons. I'd

13:07

cut my hair by then. I didn't have the long

13:09

hair. It was still wonderful. When

13:13

Cleve got to one of those small towns, he'd

13:15

go looking for people, closeted or not, who might

13:17

be willing to organize against Briggs. Then

13:20

he'd set up a meeting in a diner or a coffee

13:22

shop and he'd bring an envelope

13:24

of cash. And there

13:26

would be three, four, five very

13:30

nervous people glancing

13:33

over their shoulders, speaking

13:35

very softly. But

13:38

we would say, here's a

13:41

thousand dollars and here's how

13:43

you get a

13:45

postcard printed. Or if you

13:47

can find just one person who's

13:49

willing to sign a letter to

13:51

the editor for your community newspaper.

13:54

Cleve found these conversations

13:56

incredibly moving. Unlike his

13:59

crew of outgays, in San Francisco, many

14:01

of these people stood to lose everything

14:03

if they came out. It

14:05

definitely made me smarter and more

14:07

compassionate to really understand the risk

14:10

that these folks were taking. While

14:16

Cleve did his outreach, another San Francisco

14:18

activist was on her own mission in

14:20

the Central Valley. Her name

14:22

was Amber Hollabaugh. Oh

14:25

my God, that woman, what a force. She

14:27

was tough, she was gritty, she was working class. I'm

14:30

proud of it. I only

14:32

went to high school and I never went to college,

14:34

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I

14:37

was really, boy, don't fuck with me.

14:39

I am not apologetic. Amber

14:42

died in 2023, right before we started

14:44

making this show. The audio

14:46

you're hearing is from a 2004 oral history. If

14:49

you started from nothing, the good part of that is you

14:51

don't have a hell of a lot to lose. Amber

14:55

was a high femme lesbian and a

14:58

Marxist. She had bleach blonde hair and

15:00

loved her jewelry. I'm devastated

15:02

that I never got to meet her, because

15:05

everyone who knew Amber told me

15:07

that her ingenuity and passion were

15:09

essential to their movement. In a

15:12

world so controlled by really brilliant

15:14

intellectual men who were profoundly sexist,

15:18

if you have any tendency to give up, you

15:21

haven't got a shot in hell. In

15:24

1978, Amber started driving her

15:27

van all over rural California, to places

15:29

like the one where she'd grown up.

15:32

When I went back to all these working class

15:34

towns and I had to

15:36

begin talking to women who were

15:38

never parts of the political movements

15:40

that had sent me there about

15:43

why they were living the lives they were

15:45

living, it really humbled me.

15:48

She would just arrive and try

15:50

to refute the lies that they

15:53

were being told. The activist

15:55

and professor Ruth Mahaney was Amber's roommate

15:57

for a time. She says

15:59

that Amber would start out by looking for

16:01

one friendly person. Anybody that had

16:03

a no on six bumper

16:06

sticker, she would follow

16:08

them and make them stop. She

16:11

would like jump out of her

16:13

van and say, hi, I'm

16:15

a lesbian and I want to talk to you. Like

16:19

Cleve, Amber convened small meetings to

16:21

strategize against Prop 6, but

16:23

she also went a step further. She

16:26

would end up debating somebody

16:29

in the school gymnasium

16:31

and the whole town would come. Often

16:34

it was a minister. And

16:36

I had to learn how to make an

16:38

argument. And there's nothing like

16:41

evangelical religious,

16:43

I mean, if you listen to the

16:45

way that they move an audience and

16:48

if you debate those people, you

16:52

better be able to step up to the plate. One

16:55

of Amber's debate opponents was a Baptist

16:57

pastor named Royal Blue. And

17:00

his approach was truly horrifying.

17:02

Historian Lillian Faderman. He

17:05

was asked by the

17:07

audience what should be done about

17:09

gay people. And he actually

17:12

said, well, I think we

17:14

should find a humane way to

17:17

get rid of them all. That

17:19

is to exterminate them. Amber

17:22

looked around the room. She saw that

17:24

most of the audience was over 50, which

17:27

meant a lot of the men had probably served in

17:29

World War II. And she

17:31

said, many of you fought

17:34

against Hitler. And I think what you

17:36

fought against was precisely

17:39

that. Somebody who was

17:41

a fascist who

17:43

thought the genocide was the solution if

17:45

you didn't like another group.

17:48

And many people came up

17:50

to her afterward and apologized for

17:53

Royal Blue, said he's an embarrassment.

17:55

We don't feel that way at

17:58

all. Even though... some

18:00

people warmed to Amber, what she was

18:02

doing was risky. She

18:04

often slept in her van alone, and

18:07

Ruth says one night a group of teenagers

18:09

found her at a campground. She

18:11

woke up and they were like pounding on

18:14

the van and rocking it back and forth. She

18:16

was afraid they were going to tip it over.

18:19

But she just remained quiet and they

18:22

finally left. But she

18:24

said that night she was really terrifying. Amber

18:28

may have been scared, but she didn't stop.

18:31

She kept driving her van from town to town,

18:33

trying to meet people where they were and give

18:35

them an outlet for all the questions they didn't

18:37

know who else to ask. I

18:40

remember her saying at one point

18:42

somebody got up and was railing

18:44

about, you know, perversion and

18:47

horrible homosexuals and a

18:49

woman stood up and said, oh shut up

18:51

Henry. Now what I really want

18:53

to know is how do I talk to my

18:55

kids about sex? In

18:58

some places and in some families, the

19:00

Briggs Initiative had brought sex into the

19:02

open for the first time, and not

19:04

just straight sex. They

19:07

needed an honest discussion of these

19:09

issues and so she started

19:11

talking about it. Here's how we have

19:14

sex. She would talk to

19:16

them about that? Yeah, yeah. We

19:18

also don't have rights. You

19:20

know, we don't have the same rights that you have when

19:22

you fall in love with somebody. Amber

19:27

had a way of making gay life

19:29

and gay hardship legible to straight people

19:31

without pretending her life was the same

19:33

as theirs. And if a

19:36

simple conversation wasn't enough, she could always

19:38

pull out a visual aid. We somehow

19:40

fairly early decided that a good thing

19:42

to do would be to produce a

19:45

slideshow. Ruth Schoenbach was

19:47

a leader of the Lesbian School Workers,

19:49

an activist group. The slideshow

19:51

that Ruth and Amber used was called Don't

19:53

Let It Happen Here. It included 161

19:55

slides, an 11 page script, and a full-time and

20:00

excruciatingly detailed instructions. When

20:03

Ruth and I looked them over together, we started

20:05

at the very beginning. You don't

20:07

want me to read Plug in the Extension Court? Ha

20:10

ha ha! Ha ha ha! The

20:13

lesbian school workers presented their slideshow

20:16

at community centers, schools, all over

20:18

the place. There were

20:20

newspaper listings advertising it, and apparently

20:22

people would just show up for

20:25

a slideshow presentation that they read

20:27

about in a newspaper. What

20:30

they showed up for was a kind of

20:32

seminar on where the Briggs Initiative came from

20:34

and why it was dangerous. I

20:36

asked Ruth to read a bit of the script. A

20:38

fundamental part of Briggs's image of

20:41

the ideal family is

20:43

that sex roles are rigidly defined.

20:46

Because gays challenge these ideas, Briggs

20:48

uses gays as a scapegoat

20:50

for people's fears about the

20:52

changes in traditional family life.

20:56

The slideshow covered a lot of ground. There

20:59

was material about Japanese internment camps and

21:01

the KKK, photos of

21:03

neo-Nazis and abortion rights protestors,

21:06

and partway through, just before the presenter switched

21:08

out the carousel for the next set of

21:10

slides, she would play a song by the

21:13

folk singer, Bonnie Lockhart. Ruth,

21:16

bless her, agreed to sing it for me.

21:19

Well, they've got women prison

21:21

guards and I still ain't

21:23

satisfied. The next slide, a

21:26

closeup of a face behind bars. With

21:29

so many still behind bars

21:31

and I still ain't satisfied.

21:33

And now we see campaigns

21:36

of hate and

21:38

I still ain't satisfied. Photos

21:40

from a gay rights protest.

21:42

We love our kids. We

21:45

want our rights back. We'll

21:47

stop John Briggs. We're gonna

21:49

fight back. And I still

21:52

ain't. Whoa, they lied, I

21:54

still ain't. Whoa, they lied,

21:56

I still ain't. Whoa, they lied,

21:58

I still ain't. That still

22:01

ain't satisfied. Whoa, they're not.

22:03

That still ain't satisfied. We

22:05

ain't satisfied. All

22:15

these efforts to fight John Briggs were starting

22:18

to have an impact. Polls

22:20

taken in August 1978 showed

22:22

that around 60% of Californians

22:24

supported the Briggs Initiative, down from the

22:26

70% who'd favored it earlier

22:28

that year. But time was

22:31

running out, and one

22:33

of the state's most influential politicians was

22:35

about to weigh in. Ladies

22:38

and gentlemen, Ronald Reagan. Good

22:41

evening to all of you from California. We'll

22:52

be right back. You

22:56

can save every day by shopping at

22:58

Whole Foods Market. Seriously, don't just go

23:00

for the big sales. Walk the store

23:02

and see the savings for yourself in

23:05

the seafood department. Look for the yellow

23:07

low price sign on Whole Foods Market

23:09

responsibly farmed salmon. This fish is perfect

23:11

for the grill. Buttery, fatty, yet lean,

23:14

nice thick fillets. I'm getting hungry just

23:16

thinking about it, and I know I

23:18

can get it at a great price.

23:20

There's so many ways to save at

23:23

Whole Foods Market. Now you know. Did

23:26

you kill Marlene Johnson? I

23:29

think you're one of the first people to have

23:31

actually asked. From WBUR

23:33

and ZSP Media, this is

23:35

Beyond All Repair, a

23:37

new podcast about an unsolved murder that

23:39

will leave you questioning everything. Somebody should

23:41

be in jail for murdering my sister.

23:43

A woman who's never been believed. As

23:46

long as they think I have done

23:48

this, then they're not looking for who

23:50

actually did this. And that's what makes

23:52

it a cold case. No, it's a

23:54

botched case. And a search for the

23:56

truth. Once and for

23:58

all. Wow. just gets

24:01

more interesting. Beyond all repair.

24:04

Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

24:06

Be careful. You're digging in

24:10

a place that's been very peaceful for a

24:12

while. Do it anyway. Dig.

24:15

["The Brigs

24:17

of the Night"] Can

24:27

you describe for me your role in

24:29

the Briggs Initiative? Yeah, my

24:32

role in the Briggs Initiative was

24:34

having a law professor from Pepperdine

24:36

to kind of give some

24:39

legitimacy to the cause. In

24:41

the 1970s, Lagarde Smith was a prominent

24:44

public surrogate for John Briggs in the

24:46

campaign for Proposition 6. Any

24:49

teacher who is

24:51

actively promoting, advocating

24:54

the gay lifestyle,

24:57

that person probably is unfit to be

24:59

a teacher in a classroom. Lagarde

25:01

didn't just think that back then. He

25:04

told me he still holds those beliefs today. The

25:07

gay rights agenda, it was planned. You know, we

25:09

need to get into the military. We needed to

25:11

get into the schools. We need to get into

25:13

the churches. We need to get into the government.

25:15

We need to get into every crevice of society

25:17

that we possibly can to promote

25:20

the gay lifestyle, to make it legitimate.

25:24

It's interesting to hear you talk about, we

25:26

got to get into the military, got to get into schools. It's

25:29

kind of a corollary to what

25:31

Harvey Milk, as you know, the big activist on

25:33

the other side on this issue was saying, we

25:36

need to come out to show people we

25:38

are already in those places. Yeah, and when

25:40

you start to hear those things, then

25:43

you say, you mean they're in

25:46

the schools? They're already embedded

25:48

into that system. Then

25:51

we need to do something about that. Lagarde

25:53

had a much narrower interpretation of Proposition

25:56

6 than John Briggs did. He

25:58

thought gay teachers would only... be

26:00

fired if they willfully and wantonly

26:03

promoted homosexuality in the classroom. But

26:06

Lagarde didn't hesitate to make the case

26:08

for the Briggs Initiative in op-eds and

26:10

media appearances. He also

26:12

served as Briggs's wingman at a

26:14

crucial meeting with California's most powerful

26:16

Republican, Ronald Reagan. We're

26:19

Americans, and we have a rendezvous

26:21

with destiny. You

26:24

know, the door opens and you walk

26:26

in and there's this incredible man. I

26:29

mean, big, warm handshake like he'd known

26:31

me forever. Ronald Reagan

26:33

was the real deal. I mean, he even had a

26:35

presence that was just bigger

26:38

than the silver screen. No

26:40

people who have ever lived on this earth have

26:42

done more to advance the dignity of man than

26:45

the Americans living in this land today. Reagan

26:48

had recently served two terms as governor of

26:50

California, and he was looking like a strong

26:52

presidential contender for 1980. But

26:55

to this point, he hadn't said much in

26:57

public about gay rights. But Lagarde thought they'd have

26:59

no problem getting him on board with Prop

27:01

6. Reagan was

27:04

a conservative, and it would

27:06

be the natural fit

27:08

for him to back this proposition.

27:12

Forty-five years later, Lagarde can't quite

27:14

recollect the actual pitch they made

27:16

to Reagan. But he does remember

27:18

the former governor's signature jar of

27:20

jelly beans. And I quickly

27:22

pocketed some of those into my sport coat.

27:24

They probably melted in the pocket later. He

27:27

also recalls feeling a little embarrassed by the

27:30

guy he was there to support. Senator

27:32

Briggs, bless his heart, he

27:35

looked like a typical sleazy

27:37

politician, a used

27:39

car salesman. I just defamed

27:42

all used car salespeople, but it was just

27:44

kind of a queasy feel to be around

27:46

him. So

27:49

at one point, Lagarde pulled Reagan aside

27:51

for a private word. I

27:53

said, you know, governor,

27:56

I said, if this were

27:58

any other issue at all, any other issue.

28:00

I'd be tempted to say that politics makes

28:02

strange bedfellows. And he

28:04

just had this great hearty laugh. And

28:08

I'll never forget that part of it that I

28:10

made Reagan laugh. When

28:15

the meeting was over, LeGarde still wasn't

28:17

sure where the former California governor stood.

28:20

And he and John Briggs weren't the only

28:22

ones courting Reagan. I

28:24

said, I need 15 minutes

28:28

of the governor's time. Anti-Briggs

28:30

activist David Mixtner was watching the

28:32

opinion polls. And with a

28:34

little over two months until election day, the

28:36

numbers didn't look good. David

28:38

thought an endorsement from Reagan might be the only

28:41

thing that could put them over the top and

28:43

he had a potential way in. I

28:45

knew some men who

28:48

worked for Ronald Reagan who

28:50

were closeted, married and closeted

28:53

and Reagan advisors. How

28:56

did you know them? Party. You

28:59

just knew him from out and about. Out

29:01

and about. I knew one or two

29:03

of them as well as their wives did. Those

29:09

Republican friends of David's agreed

29:11

to a meeting. The

29:14

problem was they were terrified to be spotted

29:16

with him. It

29:19

wasn't just that David was an out gay man.

29:21

He was also a well-known Democrat.

29:24

So the Reagan crew asked to meet in

29:27

the Latino neighborhood of East Los Angeles at

29:29

a place where they thought no other Republicans

29:31

would go. Denny's

29:39

was the working class diner

29:42

basically. And

29:45

they were in the middle of summer, raincoats,

29:48

sunglasses and hats like

29:50

they were spies. When

29:53

they all sat down, David made his case for getting some

29:55

FaceTime with Reagan. How the community had

29:58

come together. that

30:00

we were so close and

30:03

what a heartbreaker it would be to get this far

30:05

and loose. They

30:07

said, well, we think you're smoking if

30:10

you think that the

30:12

governor is going to come out in your

30:14

side. I said,

30:16

probably am, but I want 15

30:18

minutes, guys. The

30:21

Reagan advisors came around. David

30:23

was thrilled. But he says other members

30:25

of his gay rights group were livid

30:27

that he was cozying up to a

30:29

notorious conservative. How could you meet

30:31

that man? Don't you know what he stands

30:33

for? You know, you of all

30:35

people giving him credibility. And

30:38

I said, look, I understand. I

30:40

didn't get clearance for this. And I

30:42

have no choice as a campaign person.

30:45

A couple of David's fellow activists said that even

30:48

though they didn't like what he was doing, if

30:50

he was going to lobby Reagan, he should at

30:52

least look the part. And they took me shopping.

30:54

So I got a new suit and a nice

30:56

tie and a white shirt. And

30:58

I always wore cowboy boots. And I said, I'm not

31:01

getting rid of the cowboy boots. David

31:05

went to the meeting with his business partner,

31:07

Peter Scott, and Ronald Reagan greeted them warmly.

31:10

Put his arm around me, said, come on in,

31:12

boys, have a seat. Offered

31:15

me jelly beans. I think I ate his

31:17

whole jar of jelly beans. I was so

31:19

nervous. Before he lost his nerve, David gave

31:21

the former governor his spiel, which had nothing

31:23

to do with gay rights. And

31:26

I said, well, you

31:28

know, governor, I'm worried about anarchy in

31:30

the classroom. Peter

31:33

found this. He said, if you look here

31:36

in this paragraph, it

31:38

says that if any child or

31:40

parent accuses a

31:42

teacher of being homosexual,

31:47

it is required law that they are put

31:49

on trial before a school

31:51

board. David painted

31:53

the picture. A student who's

31:55

failing a class threatens his teacher. I'm

32:00

telling the school board you're gay. So

32:02

kids would be able to terrorize

32:05

teachers and any sort

32:07

of discipline and structure

32:10

in the classroom would totally fly out the

32:12

window. Kids would run into

32:14

classroom. Reagan asked to see

32:16

the piece of paper they'd brought with the text of

32:18

the proposition. We pushed it over the

32:20

desk and he read it

32:23

and he said, those stupid fuckers. The

32:26

meeting lasted for 45 minutes, half

32:29

an hour longer than it was supposed to. And

32:32

as he's showing us out, I said, can I

32:34

ask you what you're gonna do? And

32:37

he said, no. I said,

32:39

well, thank you for your time. David

32:41

didn't know what to think. Had

32:43

he done the right thing or had he

32:45

debased himself for nothing? I

32:47

couldn't sleep, couldn't eat. Had

32:50

I let my community down, had I let my

32:52

ego out of control.

32:59

In late September, with a month and a

33:01

half to go before the election, Ronald Reagan

33:03

took his stance on Prop 6. He

33:07

wrote, I don't approve of teaching a

33:09

so-called gay lifestyle in our schools. But

33:13

then he repeated David Mixner's argument.

33:16

He said that the Briggs Initiative

33:18

would give students the power to

33:20

trigger costly, reputation-trashing hearings. If

33:25

Prop 6 passed, Reagan wrote, innocent

33:27

lives could be ruined. About

33:32

1,800 people threw it on my desk,

33:34

called, arrived at the headquarters

33:36

to celebrate. I wanted

33:39

to cry. I was so relieved. We

33:42

sent it everywhere. And we

33:45

called all of our organizers and had

33:47

people go door to door in Orange

33:49

County and what we consider toss-up precincts,

33:52

saying we want you to know that Governor Reagan

33:54

is on our side. Question,

34:00

what do Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford,

34:03

Jimmy Carter and Mayor Pete Wilson

34:05

have in common? Answer, they

34:07

all urge you to vote no on six,

34:10

paid for by San Diego's Save Our Teachers.

34:13

For John Briggs, Reagan's statement felt

34:15

like a betrayal. I

34:17

cannot believe, and I will not believe that

34:19

Governor Reagan is in favor of public homosexual

34:21

school teachers teaching children in California.

34:23

I cannot believe the Hollywood crowd has

34:25

gotten Governor Reagan to move into that

34:27

position. I will only believe it when

34:30

Governor Reagan says I'm against parents and

34:33

I'm for homosexuals. I hear that,

34:35

then I'll believe it. Obviously,

34:38

Reagan never said anything like that.

34:41

But when it comes to his legacy

34:43

in gay America, his years-long silence on

34:45

AIDS speaks much louder than his statement

34:47

against Briggs. As president

34:49

in the 1980s, Reagan ignored the AIDS

34:52

crisis while tens of thousands of people

34:54

died. But in this

34:56

moment, with the first statewide referendum on

34:58

gay rights closing in, Reagan's

35:01

decision mattered. Here

35:03

he is in 1978, the

35:05

champion of the gay community, and I don't

35:07

know if he believed in it or if

35:09

he didn't. I don't know. Ron

35:13

Briggs knew his father had been desperate

35:15

for Reagan's support. But as

35:17

the vote drew closer, John Briggs did

35:19

get another endorsement. So I

35:22

get this letter, and on the

35:24

outside it said American Nazi Party.

35:27

With a swastika, I'm like, oh shit. This

35:29

is dear Senator Briggs, you know, we're

35:31

here to offer you our support, to

35:34

thwart the homosexual

35:37

stuff like that. News

35:40

of that letter eventually became public, and a

35:42

Nazi spokesman told a reporter, our storm

35:45

troop section is always ready to take

35:47

to the streets. I saw that

35:49

thing, oh my God, we're on the wrong side of

35:51

this thing. We certainly can't be with

35:53

the Nazis, man. The

35:55

Briggs campaign publicly disavowed the American

35:57

Nazi Party. gave

36:00

credence to an analogy gay activists

36:02

were already making. Gay leaders

36:04

here say the current backlash is reminiscent

36:07

of Nazi Germany. Let me

36:09

bring up the point that when Hitler

36:11

started, he started by banning Jewish teachers.

36:13

Yeah, but you see, Hitler had the

36:17

dictatorial power of doing what he wanted to do. I'm

36:20

submitting this to a democratic referendum

36:22

of the people to make that

36:24

decision. I'm not making that decision.

36:28

John Briggs didn't see himself as any kind

36:30

of villain. In his mind,

36:32

he was a man of uncommon bravery, fighting

36:34

against the odds for what he knew was

36:36

right. The real Nazis were

36:38

all the people who opposed Prop 6. I

36:41

feel that a great Holocaust is

36:43

occurring here in this country when nobody will stand

36:45

up and speak for children, but

36:48

everybody is willing to stand up and

36:50

speak for homosexuals. We'll

36:56

be back in a minute. My

37:21

team and I are putting out analysis of the

37:23

biggest cases just as quickly as we can bound

37:32

to our closets and fire up our

37:34

laptops to speak to you. From presidential

37:37

immunity to social media content regulation

37:39

to domestic abusers' gun rights, we

37:42

will be here unpacking the news for you. Listen

37:45

to Amicus wherever you get your podcasts. In

37:53

the final months of the anti-Briggs

37:56

campaign, Harvey Milk was an unflinching

37:58

champion for gay Californians. channeling

38:00

their anger and making a powerful case

38:02

for gay rights. The

38:04

time has come from all over

38:06

this country to people to say,

38:08

no more dreaming, the time has

38:10

come to awake. But

38:15

in private, Harvey was drained, struggling

38:18

to balance his responsibilities to his

38:20

district, the city, and the entire

38:23

gay community. Not a lot

38:25

of joy in those months. Harvey's

38:27

aide, Anne Cronenberg. So

38:29

we're at City Hall.

38:31

We're trying to do all these

38:33

great things. Harvey is burning the

38:36

candle at both ends. This

38:38

was really a hard period

38:40

of time. At this

38:42

point, Harvey was nationally known, but he

38:45

was barely making any money. His

38:47

car got repossessed. And when

38:49

the landlord for Castro Camera more than tripled his

38:51

rent, the unofficial mayor of Castro

38:53

Street had to relocate his shop a

38:55

couple of blocks away to Market Street.

38:58

He talked about that move in an interview with

39:00

a local documentary crew. How's

39:03

it feel to be moving out? Sad.

39:07

Five years. It was more

39:09

than just a camera store. It was kind of

39:11

like a place for people in the neighborhood to

39:13

come and to find out what's happening or to

39:15

get help. And I

39:17

think a lot of people are going to miss it. Then,

39:20

at the end of August, about two months

39:22

before the Briggs vote, things took

39:24

an even darker turn in Harvey's personal life.

39:27

My phone rang, and

39:29

I picked it up, and it was

39:31

Harvey. And he said, Jack

39:34

killed himself. Jack

39:37

Lira was Harvey's partner of more than a

39:39

year. When Harvey got home from work

39:41

on August 28, 1978, he

39:44

found Jack dead in a slew of

39:46

angry notes. And

39:49

it was this whole trail from the

39:51

front door that led back

39:54

through the apartment into

39:56

the back room. It

39:58

was like, oh my God, Harvey. We called the

40:00

police. He said, I just called you. Harvey

40:04

blamed himself. Jack had been

40:06

giving him a hard time about all the long

40:08

hours he'd been working. Jack had

40:10

actually called Anne multiple times that day,

40:12

begging her to pull Harvey out of

40:14

his Board of Supervisors meeting. But

40:17

Harvey couldn't leave. It's

40:20

impossible to say with certainty why

40:22

someone dies by suicide. But

40:24

suicidality was commonplace in gay communities in

40:26

the 1970s, and Jack

40:28

had tried to take his life twice before. His

40:31

father was reportedly abusive, and Anne

40:33

says his family was extremely homophobic.

40:37

In an interview with the San Francisco

40:39

Examiner after Jack's death, his father said,

40:42

he's my son and everything, but he didn't have

40:44

the guts to face reality. The

40:47

article ends with Harvey fighting back

40:49

tears, telling the reporter life

40:51

hasn't been exactly satisfying for Jack.

40:54

I mean, here he is campaigning

40:57

for hope, and

40:59

there's hope for young people.

41:01

And here his own lover

41:03

had no hope. I mean,

41:06

it weighed on him really heavily.

41:11

Harvey got a mountain of sympathy notes from

41:14

lesbians and gay men whose own partners had

41:16

died by suicide. Those

41:19

letters surely reminded him of exactly what

41:21

he was fighting for and maybe

41:23

convinced him that he couldn't afford to take a

41:25

break because the campaign was

41:27

nearing its final phase, and John

41:29

Briggs showed no signs of slowing

41:31

down. I believe

41:34

I'm appealing to common reasoning that

41:36

most adult people in this

41:38

society understand that homosexuals have

41:41

a proclivity for young boys.

41:44

Briggs was flooding the media in the fall of

41:46

1978. Wherever

41:48

you looked, there he was, airing

41:50

his views on television, on the

41:52

radio, and in a series of

41:54

high-profile public debates. He would

41:56

debate almost anyone so long as there was

41:58

a camera rolling. That meant

42:00

that taking him on became a whole

42:02

community effort. We needed to

42:04

win an election. I couldn't

42:06

stand there publicly spit on him, so I had

42:09

to do it verbally. That's

42:11

Larry Berner. You heard about him in our

42:13

second episode. He was the second grade teacher

42:15

that the Briggs campaign turned into a poster

42:18

boy for the homosexual menace. Now,

42:20

with election day creeping closer, Briggs came

42:23

to Larry's hometown in Sonoma County to

42:25

debate him in front of hundreds of

42:27

his neighbors. Up

42:30

on stage, Larry felt like he was standing

42:32

in for every gay person who would never

42:35

get the chance to tell John Briggs off.

42:38

That is why I and tens of thousands

42:40

of other lesbians and gay men are

42:43

risking our careers, our social

42:45

standing, and our personal

42:47

relationships to expose your campaign

42:49

of hate and contempt for our lives.

42:52

Briggs fired back. He said

42:55

that society had decided gay people weren't good

42:57

enough for the army or the institution of

42:59

marriage, so how could they be good enough

43:01

to teach America's children? Somebody

43:03

one time said, just give me a

43:05

generation of teaching children, and

43:08

I will have that country. And

43:10

that is what this issue is all about, is

43:12

children, and in which direction will they

43:14

be turned? You would have

43:16

any teacher dismissed because that teacher

43:19

stated the truth that many gay

43:21

people lead productive and fulfilled lives.

43:25

Larry told Briggs that his mind was in the

43:27

gutter. He said, the children at

43:29

my school are not obsessed with my sexuality

43:32

as you seem to be. After

43:35

the debate, an area radio show proved Larry's

43:38

point in an interview with the child of

43:40

a lesbian mother. How old are you,

43:42

Joel? Eight. Do

43:44

you think that it's going to matter to

43:46

you whether you're teachers are gay or not?

43:49

No, I don't think it matters if

43:51

my teacher's gay or not. How

43:54

come? Because I

43:56

just don't care. I'm only

43:58

a whole lot. gay

44:01

and straight-form be friends soon.

44:06

The debate between John Briggs and Larry

44:08

Burner in Sonoma County got plenty of

44:10

media coverage. But it was the

44:12

match-ups between Briggs and Harvey Milk that dominated

44:14

the final weeks of the campaign. After

44:17

circling each other for more than a year,

44:19

the two men were finally facing off, with

44:21

the fate of gay Californians hanging in the

44:23

balance. We

44:26

are saying that a gay person should have the

44:28

right to say, I am gay, that

44:30

it is a part of society, period. In

44:33

the classroom? In the classroom, in the classroom, in the classroom,

44:35

because it is a part of society. One

44:38

of the first Milk-Briggs debates was at

44:40

a fancy Italian restaurant. They sat awkwardly

44:42

at a small circular table with a

44:44

moderator between them. Their

44:47

conversation went far beyond gay

44:49

teachers, touching on biology, civics,

44:51

and sex. And

44:53

unlike the winning conservatives in Eugene,

44:55

Oregon, who had tempered their anti-gay

44:57

message to win over a more

45:00

liberal audience, Briggs was gunning for

45:02

maximum moral panic. We

45:04

don't allow prostitutes to do that in the classroom.

45:06

We don't allow thieves. We don't allow thieves. We

45:08

don't allow thieves. And we don't allow alcoholics. Why?

45:11

Because that's considered to be immoral. Are you talking about what

45:13

Christ said is moral? No, I'm talking

45:15

about what the standards of this society is. Who

45:17

sets the standards? The debate is

45:20

painful to listen to. There's

45:22

one person fighting to be seen as

45:24

fully human, trying to stop a new

45:26

law from devastating his community. And

45:29

another with a political agenda, trying to

45:31

advance his career. Children

45:33

learn by example. Children emulate.

45:35

People need heroes. The reason you wanted to be elected

45:37

to high office is so you can recruit and convert

45:39

every young adolescent woman. That was your own rule. I

45:42

read it in the newspaper. No, no. My

45:45

statement was, I'm a role model to the

45:47

young gay people, people who already establish themselves

45:49

as gay. Period. You're

45:51

the one who keeps bringing up this phony recruitment.

45:54

John Briggs was a shifty opponent and Harvey

45:57

Milk wasn't practiced in the art of debate.

46:00

Harvey had someone in his corner who knew

46:02

how to win any argument. His

46:04

partner in the anti-breaks campaign, Sally

46:06

Gearhart. She was a rhetoric

46:08

teacher. That was her craft. Sue

46:11

Englander was a member of the anti-breaks

46:13

group, Bocabi. Someone asked

46:16

Sally what she thought of Harvey as a

46:18

debater and she said, oh, he was such

46:20

an amateur. And that

46:22

she had to give

46:24

him points about how to

46:26

address the kinds of questions

46:28

that John Briggs would put

46:31

forward. A little more than

46:33

a week after the Italian restaurant debate, the

46:35

two men met again at a packed high

46:37

school gymnasium. And this time,

46:39

Harvey had an answer for the allegation

46:42

that gay teachers recruit their students into

46:44

homosexuality. I was born

46:46

a heterosexual parent. I

46:48

was taught by heterosexual teachers in

46:51

a fiercely heterosexual society. And

46:53

why am I homosexual? If I'm affected by

46:56

your mom, I should have been. I'm

46:59

not a heterosexual. And no offense meant. But

47:02

if teachers are going to affect you as

47:04

role models, there'd be a lot of nuns

47:06

running around the streets today. John

47:11

Briggs didn't seem to care that he was

47:13

getting owned in public. He loved the attention

47:16

and he thrived on conflict. His

47:18

son Ron remembers a trick his dad used to

47:20

play to throw his opponents off their game. When

47:23

you go on live TV or live

47:25

radio, the producer or

47:27

whoever the stage guy is, you'll go, three,

47:29

two, one with their fingers. And

47:32

when he got to two, dad would generally lean over and

47:34

say, hey, is

47:36

it true you really taken up the ass? The

47:41

campaign's climactic showdown came just a few

47:43

weeks before the vote. And

47:45

this time, Harvey wasn't taking on John Briggs

47:48

alone. And representing

47:50

the Bay Area Committee against the Briggs

47:52

Initiative, it's Sally Gearhart. Sally

47:55

and Sally knew a lot was riding on this

47:57

debate, which was held at a public television station.

48:00

It was their last big chance to

48:02

reach undecided voters. In an

48:04

interview a few years later, Sally said

48:06

that she and Harvey wanted to project

48:08

a conservative image. They decided

48:10

they would dress as, what they called,

48:12

Mama and Papa USA. So,

48:14

a half hour before we start to leave

48:16

for the television station, Harvey calls me and

48:18

says, I've lost my earrings,

48:20

dear, whatever shall I do? That

48:23

night, Sally and Harvey were up against

48:25

Briggs and his favorite pastor. And

48:27

Briggs made some wild arguments. At

48:31

one point, he conceded that heterosexual

48:33

teachers do molest children, but

48:35

he said that there were just too many

48:37

straight people to ban them all from public

48:40

education. The fact is, at

48:42

least 95% of the people

48:44

are heterosexual. If we took heterosexuals out and homosexuals

48:46

out, you know what? We'd have no teachers. We'd

48:48

have no teachers. No, just say. No, no, I

48:50

was saying that we cannot prevent child molestation, so

48:53

let's cut our odds down and take out the

48:55

homosexual group and keep in the

48:57

heterosexual group. While Harvey laughed at Briggs'

48:59

absurd logic, Sally was ready to pounce.

49:01

Keep in the heterosexual group. Why take

49:03

out the homosexual group? When more and

49:06

more is. More than, you know, overwhelmingly

49:08

it is true that it's the heterosexual

49:10

men, I might add, who are the

49:12

child legislatures. I believe that's a myth.

49:14

I've never seen... Oh, senators. The

49:17

FBI, the National Council on Family

49:19

Relations, the Santa Clara County Child

49:21

Sexual Abuse Treatment Center, and on

49:23

and on and on. The

49:26

fact that she mustered the facts

49:28

was incredibly important. She

49:31

came to that debate

49:33

prepared. John Briggs did

49:35

not. The

49:37

election was almost here, and the time

49:39

for arguments was over. Now

49:42

all that mattered was staying motivated and

49:44

getting out the vote. Today

49:47

I stand and say we as

49:49

human beings, if we are gay,

49:51

if we are transsexual, we stand

49:54

and say we need it. We

49:56

need it right now, right now.

50:00

Gay activists were doing everything they could

50:02

to win. But one leader

50:04

in Sonoma County told a reporter they

50:06

were also preparing to lose. We're

50:08

trying to set up some kind of crisis counseling

50:11

right now to prevent people

50:13

from becoming totally

50:16

depressed, suicidal.

50:19

I would also advise people who are

50:21

watching the election returns to not watch

50:24

them alone. For the people

50:26

who'd come out of the closet specifically

50:28

to fight the Briggs Initiative, especially teachers,

50:31

it felt like their whole lives were on the

50:33

ballot. But it wasn't just the gay teacher

50:35

band they were worried about. After

50:37

the failures in St. Paul, Wichita, and Eugene, it

50:42

was clear that this vote would signal the trajectory

50:44

of gay rights in America. If

50:46

Prop 6 passed, there was no telling

50:49

how far the anti-gay backlash would go. The

50:52

entire movement was at the top of the

50:54

ballot. The movement was at stake. And

50:57

now that the vote was here,

50:59

the potential consequences felt terrifyingly real.

51:03

Cleve Jones. Yeah, we

51:06

were afraid. I thought

51:08

there was the possibility that this was going

51:10

to be the beginning of a really

51:14

horrifying wave of repression. Harvey

51:18

and I had many late

51:20

night conversations about what we were going

51:22

to do when the tally was posted

51:24

on television and people knew we'd lost.

51:27

What was your plan? To

51:30

get them out of the neighborhood before they burned it

51:32

down. Next

51:46

time on Slow Burn. The

51:48

votes roll in and gay teachers await

51:50

their fate. I remember

51:52

one guy started to cry. And you

51:55

know, you put your whole soul into it. What

51:57

the fuck is wrong with California? And

52:02

an unthinkable act of violence shakes San

52:04

Francisco and the nation. You

52:07

know, one of the hardest things in this job

52:09

is to report news like this. We have just

52:11

gotten news across the wire, and reports are that

52:13

they have been killed. The

52:24

tension is building in San Francisco. With

52:26

the Briggs Initiative vote inching closer, the

52:28

future of gay rights hangs in the

52:30

balance. In the final two

52:32

episodes of Slow Burn, Gaze Against Briggs, we'll

52:35

revisit the seismic events of November 1978 and

52:37

May 1979. You'll

52:41

hear about the outcome of the Prop

52:43

6 vote, an unthinkable act of violence

52:45

at City Hall, and the queer community's

52:47

explosive response to a tragic miscarriage of

52:49

justice. You can listen to

52:52

episodes 6 and 7 of Slow Burn,

52:54

Gaze Against Briggs right now by subscribing

52:56

to Slate Plus. Join now

52:58

by clicking subscribe at the top of the

53:00

Slow Burn show page on Apple Podcasts, or

53:03

visit slate.com/Slow Burn Plus to

53:05

get access wherever you listen.

53:10

This season of Slow Burn was written and

53:12

produced by me, Christina Cottorucci. If

53:15

you or anyone you know are

53:17

in crisis, you can contact the

53:19

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline anytime. Just

53:22

dial 988 or visit 988lifeline.org. Slow

53:26

Burn is produced by Kelly Jones, Joel

53:29

Meyer, and Sophie Somergrad. Josh

53:31

Levine is the editorial director of Slow Burn.

53:34

Derek John is our executive producer. Susan

53:37

Matthews is Slate's executive editor. Merritt

53:40

Jacob is our senior technical director. We

53:42

had engineering help from Madeleine Ducharme. Our

53:45

theme music was composed by Alexis Cuadrado.

53:48

Ivy Lee Simones did the cover art,

53:50

which features an image of Silvana Nova from

53:53

a poster designed by Larry Hermsen and

53:55

the Too Much Graphics Collective. We

53:57

had production help from Emily Gaddick, Moniz

54:00

Edwards, Jude Joffe Block, Mike

54:02

Maines, Dave Clark-McCoy

54:04

at StudioPods Media, Jonathan

54:07

Davis, Jared Downing, Andrew

54:09

Frankel at Garden of Sound in Los Angeles,

54:12

and the Women's Audio Mission in San Francisco. Some

54:15

of the audio you heard in our

54:18

show comes courtesy of KSFO and the

54:20

Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Historical Society. Larry

54:23

Berner's oral history is from the

54:25

Hormel LGBTQIA Center at the San

54:27

Francisco Public Library. Amber

54:29

Hollabaugh's oral history is from the Sophia

54:31

Smith Collection of Women's History at Smith

54:33

College Libraries. Special

54:36

thanks to Isaac Fellman at the

54:38

GLBT Historical Society, Lillian

54:40

Faderman, Rami Khalil, Fred Fijas,

54:43

Rachel Strom, and Deb Greenspan.

54:46

And to Slate's Evan Chung,

54:48

Madeleine Ducharm, June Thomas, Brian

54:50

Louder, Katie Shepherd, Beth

54:53

Brown, Katie Rayford, Caitlyn Schneider,

54:56

Alexandra Cole, Joshua Metcalf, Heidi

54:58

Strom-Moon, Hilary Frye, and Alicia

55:01

Montgomery, Slate's VP of Audio.

55:05

Thanks for listening.