0:00

You're listening to shortwave. From

0:03

npr So,

0:05

a few months I went to Hawaii

0:08

on vacation with friends and

0:10

we decided to go night, time,

0:12

snorkeling, which

0:14

is exactly like snorkeling during the

0:17

day, except you need. Giant

0:19

LED lights to see by and

0:21

the whole design of the store with kind of a

0:23

happy accident. Basically a hotel

0:26

on the big island had put LED lights in

0:28

the sea to Gatineau.

0:30

create ambiance and. what they discovered

0:32

is it attracted plankton

0:35

And thank been attracted

0:37

fish. Though I.

0:40

I'm wearing a wet suit. And snorkeling

0:42

gear. Hi,

0:44

drop off the back of the deck of a

0:46

boat and paddle over to the

0:49

surfboard diet.

0:51

Is resting on the surface

0:53

of the see I've been held in

0:55

place by a guide and,

0:58

he tells me the like grab on to these

1:00

row

1:01

And float on the surface of my face

1:03

stuck down in the water, some completely flattened

1:05

staring down at this like oceanic hi

1:07

way of.

1:08

This. There is yellow

1:11

taking there's butterfly fish they're all eating

1:14

and, then all the suddenly off to are right there

1:16

comes this like loading shadow specter

1:19

of assists it's like a. Cloak

1:21

moving towards us, and

1:24

it is uri and silent

1:26

and it's huge like seven feet.

1:28

across and it

1:30

has wings that tippett towards

1:32

us and then eventually barrel roll

1:35

beneath us in us Somersault.

1:37

Then. I realize I'm staring and down

1:40

the mouth of a manta ray like inches

1:42

from my face as it pulls

1:45

Plankton into it's belly and,

1:48

I can't breathe, and actually. sucking

1:50

my stomach ensue my rib cage

1:52

because I'm so afraid of bumping the

1:54

manta ray the manta. rays

1:57

it seems very ah you know

2:00

They fully aware and I realize

2:02

we're kind of in it's. If you're.

2:04

You know so often we encounter creatures

2:07

in on are now Bill Environment

2:09

Zoos Cetera.

2:11

here We're in their

2:13

home and I just need to.

2:16

The silent and watch another,

2:18

we do for an hour we watch

2:20

Manta Rays feed on

2:23

Plankton, there's is one area of

2:25

the sea floor called the campfire and

2:27

there are maybe twenty manta rays just

2:29

circling around like. ghosts and

2:32

they're so big that they're

2:34

block of the light with their bodies

2:36

to the lights are blinking in and out

2:38

like a momentary eclipse

2:42

And it's it is beautiful,

2:44

graceful manta ray ballet

2:47

of these fish gliding

2:49

over and above. In

2:52

between each other eating.

2:59

The my friends and I. They are just

3:01

in awe. Hi. Don't

3:03

want a blank, I don't want to miss a moment of it.

3:06

And I'm filled with so many more questions about

3:09

them and. I

3:11

gonna start to wonder. You

3:13

know? Why don't I

3:15

know about the? This before. How

3:18

did I not realize that a fish could

3:20

be so intelligence?

3:24

And so so. The

3:26

Korea. Then

3:28

I can't tell what I'm anthropomorphizes

3:30

and what is real, and I just realized

3:33

I have so many more questions about them. The

3:35

dhamma so I'm going to get some answers

3:38

about what makes Manta Rays so

3:40

magical and so smart

3:43

and, what has put them on

3:45

the endangered species list? and

3:48

emily kwong this is shortwave

3:50

the daily science podcast from npr

3:53

The following message comes from NPR sponsor.

3:56

REI, Chief customer officer, Ben,

3:58

Steele. Shares The And. Gordon's of engaging

4:01

beer co op community to make positive

4:03

change in the outdoors.

4:05

Sorry. I cannot single

4:07

handedly solve issues like sustainability,

4:10

like climate change, like equity in

4:12

participation, the outdoors, but if you think

4:15

about the ripple effect of what

4:17

are millions of people can. Do together

4:19

I'm what's possible starts

4:21

to get pretty exciting pretty fast.

4:23

To learn more, go to rei.com,

4:25

better is out

4:27

there. Take

4:32

all the glory.

4:35

I got it. Sharks. Have teeth there. Cool

4:38

and big. they have a week on Discovery Channel,

4:40

but come on, we need to show

4:42

Manta Rays some loves people,

4:44

and you know the big fan of them to.

4:46

The to Graham wow such,

4:48

spectacular species and

4:50

down, it's worth noting that

4:53

their name Manta means blanket

4:56

in Spanish and that's what they really look

4:58

like they look, like flying

5:00

blind kids. are carpets some

5:03

of us and in the man to world also

5:05

called man magical see slaps laps

5:08

around very scientific very

5:10

scientific guess that's what we are we're all

5:12

about the science hundred and sixty percent rachel's

5:15

the founder and executive director of mar

5:17

alliance a conservation organization

5:20

based in believes she's been working

5:22

with threatened marine wildlife for a long

5:24

time and when i called her up to like

5:27

Full of Manta Ray Fervor, she

5:29

totally understood.

5:30

Because she had her own manta ray meet you

5:33

at the Flower Garden Banks Marine Sanctuary

5:35

in the Gulf of Mexico I had never

5:37

seen a man to A and.

5:40

i just remember the first time first did i

5:42

was nothing

5:44

Absolutely smitten they,

5:46

are some of the most graceful

5:48

creatures you can imagine and

5:51

clue to be of was seven

5:53

meters in wits. the

5:56

match that twenty three see why

5:58

it i was are the ones We

6:00

saw at that first instance

6:02

in the flower garden banks.

6:05

The are about six. Maybe.

6:08

Seven feet wide I'm,

6:11

so two to three meters

6:13

that most, and the cool thing

6:15

is set what's come out as set this

6:17

looks like this is potentially a. Nursery

6:19

area for these man to raise

6:22

arm and that's one of the reasons why they're so

6:24

small because of actually, born

6:27

and about food between

6:29

four and a half six. feet

6:31

may be on they look

6:34

like a role that carpet and they come out of their

6:36

mother and they just unfurl and

6:38

Off the flap. A little baby.

6:41

Burrito manta ray, that's exactly

6:43

it. You can't get any cuter

6:45

than that. You really, really can

6:47

they fly away on their own? They

6:50

do. They have to, there was no parental

6:53

care. So they really have

6:55

to be self-sustaining from the word go.

6:57

And that is one of the trade, of all

7:00

contracts, hands are cartilaginous fish,

7:02

that include the sharks, the raised, the

7:04

skates, and the deep-dwelling, chimaera,

7:06

fish as well. They all have

7:08

these cartilaginous skeletons. They have

7:10

internal fertilization. They

7:12

tend to have very long lives and

7:15

really long gestation, but

7:18

when they're born, they're on

7:20

their own. So

7:23

in addition to being very unique Dr.,

7:25

graham I have come to realize that

7:27

meant rate or are extremely intelligent

7:30

so, I wanted

7:33

to bring up the work of scientists

7:35

so Ari who's done research

7:37

done manta ray brains.

7:40

and for one of the studies

7:42

that she and her colleagues did

7:44

they took to captive manta rays at

7:46

atlantis in the bahamas and they placed bahamas mirror

7:48

in the tank and observed the

7:51

behavior of these manta rays over an extended

7:53

period of time yes and they

7:55

notice that the manta rays spent more

7:57

time in front of the mirror that other

8:00

Sons of the tank case. And

8:02

demonstrated some.

8:04

Odd. Behaviors at their manta

8:06

rays performed these unusual

8:09

and repetitive movements that they describe

8:11

in the study as contingency checking

8:13

whether basically checking themselves out

8:15

in the mirror and, doing

8:17

things. Like blowing bubbles that the mirror

8:20

and flipping to look at their bellies,

8:22

which also do in the mirror, mirror look at my belly,

8:24

I see how big it's getting their. Mother of three

8:26

I'm eating hurry but pandemic yes,

8:29

and this is cool tooth a

8:31

giant manta rays at least have. this

8:34

behavior were when they meet new individuals

8:36

their white spots expand and

8:39

contract but these two manta rays

8:41

in front of the mirror didn't display

8:44

That behavior, which is adjusted to

8:47

the scientists that. They didn't.

8:50

Register. At the reflection as

8:52

another manta ray with whom they

8:54

should be social says for and this suggested

8:57

there was some kind of like evidence of self awareness

9:00

though, I talked. To Doctor aryan she said you know

9:02

it doesn't prove self awareness and she

9:05

wanted to be really clear, about.

9:07

that absolutely

9:10

and with them and rates were doing with very

9:12

similar to we will have

9:14

movie passed by mirror

9:16

and then kind of take a step back

9:18

and go wait what I. Know you

9:20

might have thought that was somebody or you are passing

9:23

by a glass window

9:25

and you get confused as to whether that

9:27

somebody on the inside or that few.

9:30

So is it proof of self

9:32

awareness or not entirely,

9:34

however, all indications show

9:37

that they have an incredibly

9:39

complex brain? Dr.

9:41

Carry a pack is a kind of top

9:43

brain researchers, Wells

9:46

is looked at it costs, compared

9:48

his work with a whole range

9:50

of different shark and way species,

9:53

and the Monterey has a really.

9:55

Well, Foley'a said are developed

9:57

brain which. Also

9:59

with. How incredibly social

10:01

these animals are as well and,

10:04

one of the aspects that you

10:06

know you when you were asking me about how with

10:08

my first encounter with man to

10:10

raise and I mentioned the flower garden banks.

10:13

it was there that i actually had one of my

10:15

most insightful

10:18

and a resting on.

10:20

encounters with man to raise what happened

10:23

well it was literally snorkeling

10:26

next to a man to re that

10:28

i had actually just tagged its

10:30

and kind of did a loop around to see

10:32

what was that has somebody

10:35

did something on my back there came around

10:38

and then hung with me for

10:40

forty minutes and,

10:44

It was just wonderful incredible

10:46

dance and curiosity where

10:49

it, would move ahead and then it would

10:51

wait for me, and it

10:53

then literally brought

10:55

me back towards the. boat or

10:58

that we were diving authors and i

11:00

could have easily swarm with it for another two

11:02

hours Then. Yeah,

11:05

I.

11:06

You know it interesting to hear you talk about this because

11:09

you know stories we've reported on the

11:11

mirror test and the work of

11:14

the person who developed that I'm Doctor Gordon

11:16

Gallup Junior You. know and yes

11:18

and nineteen seventies and seventies don't know for

11:20

me i think the bigger question is do

11:23

we even need to prove self awareness

11:25

in order to care about the future of an

11:27

animal

11:28

He absolutely and you start looking

11:31

at more and more on these animals very

11:33

closely look at Octopus I'm,

11:36

incredibly smart ascension

11:39

being and now they're talking about putting

11:41

restrictions Octopus fisheries,

11:44

for example just because they know how.

11:46

intelligent these animals are and

11:49

animals would say that it's the same thing

11:51

that people i'm that lot of people

11:53

are actually proposing to

11:56

curb any fisheries that

11:59

have a sick If you can take of manta

12:01

rays be they targeted or bycatch

12:03

and unfortunately many ways to not do well

12:06

in nets and they do not do

12:08

well when they are released from nets the

12:10

mortality as to they've been caught

12:12

is incredibly high and.

12:16

Though we're seeing a big loss

12:18

some. Man to a

12:20

populations via.

12:23

Targeted. And bycatch fisheries yeah,

12:27

it's rough their to known

12:30

species of Manta, Ray and

12:32

they're both in trouble right so we've got the giant

12:34

manta ray it's endangered.

12:37

The reef manta ray is classified, as vulnerable

12:40

both by the are you see and an international

12:42

union for. conservation of nature and

12:45

broadly speaking Churkin ray

12:47

populations have declined by around seventy

12:50

percent since nineteen seventy mainly

12:52

due to overfishing so.

12:55

Given all of this would you want people to know

12:57

about the relationship between humans

13:00

and race so?

13:02

there's a couple things i'd love to tell people

13:04

One is, if you

13:07

do ever get the of. The new t

13:09

two.

13:10

Travel to a tropical country where

13:12

men to raise form part of

13:14

a community based tourism. Though

13:18

because, by showing communities that

13:21

you are putting money into their

13:23

arm coffers and that you're doing

13:26

it because you want to see mount raised

13:28

elevates the value of meant

13:31

maze and it brings money across the communities

13:34

to many families boat captains guides

13:36

The more if, you're able to

13:38

do so. if you know

13:41

My big desire

13:44

is for people to really sink.

13:47

Hard about the seafood

13:49

that they eat.

13:51

And apparently eat less of

13:53

it because,

13:55

Really many as a threats that

13:58

we're seeing say. The man to aid. That

14:00

you. The fish week. That

14:03

will make a huge difference

14:05

to man to raise and all

14:07

the other. Large, long list marine

14:10

wildlife in our see.

14:15

The program thank you so my.

14:17

The for coming on to talk about Mansour,

14:20

a Swiss me.

14:21

It's been such a privilege and they really

14:23

are the most magnificent sought.

14:26

for those Animal or?

14:32

The hearing about manta ray mortality

14:35

from oh.

14:35

Or fishing and other human like causes

14:38

was tough mostly. after swimming

14:40

with them

14:41

The moving forward, I want to hold

14:44

both realities in my memory. The

14:47

suit, Marvel at the man her and

14:49

to also take responsibility for

14:51

the impact we humans have on

14:53

our own.

14:55

Dr Graham told me that swimming with Mantis

14:58

next are to the. Then.

15:00

Giving her purpose in the work that she does

15:02

the. conservation is hard

15:05

That man has make it all worthwhile.

15:08

This episode was produced

15:11

by Rebecca Ramirez, edited

15:13

by Sara Sin, and fact checked by Russia

15:15

or really the audio engineer was

15:17

just knew all.

15:19

Thanks to Air and Open Adrian

15:21

Wilbur and Big Island Divers

15:23

in Hawaii shoutout to Captain

15:25

Mike Justin Cosmo Casey

15:28

and the rest of the crew I, also

15:30

want to thank scylla ari who has contributed

15:32

groundbreaking research to

15:35

our understanding of manta ray and more

15:37

beulah brains and behavior I'm

15:39

Emily Kwang and you're listening to Shortwave, the

15:41

Daily Science Podcast from NPR.

15:44

On this season of the Story Corps Podcast from NPR

15:47

stories about the helpers, people

15:49

who reached out of hand, even when they didn't have

15:51

to most people see people

15:53

want the time money and they do look away

15:56

so I was just wondering. And what

15:58

made you talk to me? Because

16:00

the made my day a lot better since.

16:03

you are new season it's out now