0:01

MUSIC Hello,

0:27

Internet. I'm your husband, host, Travis McElroy.

0:29

And I'm your wife, host, Teresa McElroy. And

0:32

you're listening to Shmaners. It's extraordinary etiquette.

0:34

For ordinary occasions, hello, my dove. Hello,

0:36

dear. How are you on this

0:38

rainy April day? I mean, fine. I

0:42

think that this might be the real spring,

0:44

the real one. Because

0:46

sometimes this happens in Ohio where you

0:49

have several fake outs before

0:51

the actual spring happens. The weather

0:53

in Ohio. Don't hold down. Oh, you don't

0:56

have weather in Ohio. Oh,

0:58

whoa, whoa, whoa. But you do.

1:00

You have several very nice, wonderful

1:02

spring-ish days. You think about planting

1:05

flowers and all that kind of

1:07

stuff. And then it

1:09

gets super cold again. We had four

1:11

freezes. I'll tell you who I feel bad for. What?

1:14

The bulb flowers. The bulbs.

1:17

They start coming up. Yeah. Like,

1:19

middle of March. And they're like, oh,

1:21

yes. What the? And then they're so

1:23

cold. Like the daffodils that get frozen. The

1:26

four daffodillos. Did

1:28

you know that daffodils are toxic? Yeah,

1:31

I mean, I hear them gossiping all the

1:33

time. No. And I'm like, guys, this isn't.

1:35

Come on. No, I had to convince

1:37

our children not to pick them for

1:39

me. Not to eat them? Well, I mean, I don't

1:42

think that they would want to eat them. But picking

1:44

them, actually, like

1:48

when you cut their stems, there's

1:51

a kind of like toxic sap that's released

1:53

that can give you tummy troubles. Oh,

1:55

I don't want that. Yeah. OK. I

1:57

also tell them not to pick them, because I've worked really.

2:00

hard to grow those. Well. Yeah,

2:04

I put a lot of work into cultivating our

2:07

yard and plants and things like that.

2:09

And I would like our kids not

2:11

to pick them. Well, you're

2:13

welcome. I kept them from doing that.

2:16

Speaking of, we're coming up on Earth Day. We

2:18

are. How apropos.

2:20

Cultivating, planting. I love planting.

2:23

My garden, my garden technique, by the

2:25

way, in case anyone was wondering, because

2:27

I grow vegetables and flowers. I have

2:30

a very let nature, as nature

2:32

will. I over plant. I

2:34

don't. I don't. Like,

2:38

for example, by the end of

2:40

the season, my tomato plants look like a

2:42

tiny jungle. Right? I have

2:44

to root through there to find the tomatoes. And I'm

2:46

fine with that. Let them go wild. That's

2:48

my, that's what I do. Let nature, as

2:50

it will. And I'm happy to let

2:53

you let nature. Let nature as

2:55

it will. I don't do it. Yeah. Hey,

2:58

but here's

3:00

the thing that I think that I

3:03

did not know the history of

3:05

for this Earth Day. Is it

3:08

tomatoes? No. Okay. It

3:10

is leave no trace. And this is the.

3:12

Like inspiring. Yes. Yeah. On

3:16

nature. That, that's not

3:18

so much now with the Daniel Craig,

3:20

James Bond's. Daniel Craig smashes through

3:22

a wall to find documents. Oh, he does.

3:24

He leaves so many traces, you guys. This

3:27

was suggested by Katie F. So

3:30

we're going to talk about the history

3:32

as well as the criticisms of the

3:34

program. Okay. So that, you

3:36

know, our listeners out there can have

3:38

a good starting point on all angles

3:40

of this conservation effort. Okay. Speaking

3:43

of which you may, you

3:46

may wonder how did Katie

3:48

F suggested? No,

3:50

they emailed Alex, A L

3:52

E X X at

3:55

the Schmanner's cast at gmail.com. Don't

3:57

address it to her in the.

4:00

shmaniscastegmail.com. It's not Alex

4:02

at shmaniscastegmail.com. That's

4:05

too many ads. That's too many ads. Don't do that. But

4:08

address it to Alex. Yeah.

4:11

We're always in need of those topic suggestions. So

4:13

thank you very much, KDS. Thank

4:15

you, KDS. What

4:17

exactly is leave no trace?

4:23

Oh, that wasn't rhetorical. No, it's

4:25

for you. I assume from

4:27

the title that it

4:29

is about traces. You

4:32

don't leave them. That your

4:34

impact on, like when you,

4:36

okay, I know like when you go

4:38

out into the woods, you take only

4:40

pictures and leave only footprints or something

4:42

like that. Yeah, something like that.

4:44

Take memories, leave the cannoli. Something like that?

4:47

What is that? No, don't leave the cannoli.

4:49

Don't leave the cannoli. Whatever you do. Don't

4:52

give bears cannoli. We've trained the bears

4:54

to love cannoli. And now we have

4:56

bears in all of our pastry shops.

4:59

It is a set of ethics

5:02

promoting conservation of outdoor spaces in

5:04

the US because

5:07

during the post World

5:09

War II boom, a population

5:12

boom, more

5:14

and more people were finding themselves with

5:16

leisure time, right? That

5:18

the working class especially didn't used

5:20

to have. And so that meant

5:23

that people were taking vacations. We

5:25

had highways. People were driving places.

5:28

Here's the thing. Yes. They

5:30

probably wanted to just enjoy themselves.

5:34

And they didn't really think about their

5:36

impact on the environment. I can

5:38

just mean humans in general, because do

5:40

you mean like humans in general forever

5:42

and ever? Because I feel like what

5:44

you've just said, I've watched any

5:48

like basically this like movie or television

5:50

show, but basically we just watched Avatar

5:53

for the Max Flynn

5:55

drive bonus content that we put up.

5:58

And what you've just described. And

6:01

it seems like a pretty good summation

6:03

of humans. Not all humans.

6:05

Not all humans. Indigenous

6:08

people usually have a pretty good grip

6:10

on how to take care of the

6:13

things around them. Yeah,

6:15

though I do want to blanket that by saying

6:17

like, like

6:19

historically, I don't want to make that stereotype

6:21

of like, because someone is indigenous,

6:24

they have naturally this better connection to

6:26

the environment. But I understand communities have

6:28

a better track record. Yeah. And,

6:32

you know, people were just kind of ignorant.

6:35

It's the thing, right? They didn't mean to

6:37

damage things, but they were ignorant about the

6:39

damage they could cause to an ecosystem. Right.

6:42

And in the 60s and 70s, this

6:44

was an explosion of people into like

6:47

public recreation. Well, yeah,

6:49

this is a, there's, it's

6:51

one of the things that I'm interested in, but usually

6:53

my version of the interest is in amusement

6:56

parks. But this idea

6:59

of car travel becoming

7:01

so much more universal

7:03

and long distances and

7:06

like the driving recreation, especially

7:08

here in America, where the

7:11

railway system isn't what it is like, say in Europe,

7:13

right? It isn't even what it used to be. It

7:15

isn't even what it used to be. And

7:17

so this idea of things

7:20

like Disneyland, right, starts

7:22

popping up and then people saying,

7:24

oh, I want to do that.

7:26

But airplane travel is still way

7:28

out of, you know, our

7:31

price range, right? And feasibility at that

7:33

point, air travel was a luxury thing

7:35

akin to like taking a cruise. And

7:38

so what you got was all of these like

7:40

amusement parks popping up on like roadsides

7:42

and stuff like that. Right. And

7:45

so that was the national parks and stuff that became destination

7:48

things that you could drive to

7:50

take your kids to do for

7:52

a vacation without having to fly.

7:55

Yes. The National Park Service

7:57

saw their attendance increase from 30.

7:59

million in 1950 to 172 million in 1970. And

8:05

that's more. That is more. That's a higher

8:08

number. And all of these new campers... I'm no

8:10

mathematician. All

8:12

these new campers had to have gear,

8:15

including tents and sleeping pads and other

8:17

equipment that was made out of materials

8:19

that caused harm to the environment that

8:21

they were being used in. Right? And

8:24

that's not the only issue because several

8:26

articles during this period talk about the

8:29

country's natural spaces being, quote, loved

8:31

to death. People

8:34

overcrowding campsites, crushing local flora,

8:36

causing problems while they try

8:38

to track down and, like,

8:40

watch wildlife. Not to

8:42

mention when you get into taking souvenirs. And

8:45

that's a whole... There's a whole issue, I think it

8:47

was like with the petrified forest where

8:49

they had... I mean, I don't think

8:51

it was just specific to there, but

8:53

that's the example that pops up in

8:56

my hand where they really had to

8:58

start drilling into people's heads like, please

9:00

do not take pieces of the petrified

9:02

forest home with you, or there will

9:04

be less and less petrified... Like, it's

9:06

not a replenishing resource. If

9:08

you keep taking rocks and stuff away

9:10

and petrified wood away, there will be less

9:13

and less of it every year. Right. And

9:16

so there were regulations in place, for

9:18

example, like group sizes, right?

9:21

It wasn't that you couldn't... You

9:23

couldn't have a family reunion of all your

9:26

family anymore at the park without special permits

9:28

and things. Yeah. It was more like... Sure.

9:32

It might be a small family and maybe you guys just

9:35

haven't seen each other all day and you're like, we'll meet

9:37

back here. And then it's like, ah,

9:39

what a great and easy reunion. But

9:41

these rules that were meant to

9:43

help everyone get along with nature

9:45

and enjoy nature had a big

9:48

pushback initially. They were inundated

9:50

with letters from people claiming that

9:52

the rules took all

9:54

the joy and spontaneity out of their

9:56

wilderness adventure. And so...

10:01

So the guidelines were great, but

10:03

what we needed was to educate

10:05

the public, right? Yeah, I will also

10:07

say, listen, I don't want to sound

10:09

like I'm down on human beings, but

10:12

Avatar's really gotten me. The

10:15

thing is... Everything is Avatar these

10:17

days. Listen, he really crawled into

10:19

my heart and planted

10:21

a flag there, but... The

10:24

wrong one. The wrong Avatar.

10:27

What? Oh, I see what you're saying.

10:29

Yes, maybe. Avatar the Last Airbender

10:31

and the Legend of Korra are the superior

10:33

Avatar. I will not die on that hill. Because

10:37

it's just wrong. They are the right one. They

10:39

are the right one. Those are the right one.

10:42

But this idea of, well, you put rules on

10:44

it and now it's not fun anymore. Exactly. Is

10:47

a very human sentiment

10:49

that you see it, man. There are wonderfully,

10:53

I don't know, wild. It's so

10:55

weird. I feel so archaic to

10:58

watch now. But videos, you

11:00

could find news stories and interviews

11:02

from the 80s when

11:04

they outlawed drinking alcohol

11:07

in your car while driving. And you can see

11:09

people like, this just ruined it. I get off

11:11

of work and I've had a hard day working

11:13

in a factory or whatever. I want to be

11:15

able to drink a beer on my way home.

11:17

And it's like watching it now and you're like,

11:19

what are you talking about? It's like

11:21

the same people who complain about seatbelts. Yeah,

11:23

it's wild. It's wild. So,

11:26

by 1987, the National Park

11:28

Service, the United States Forest

11:30

Service, and the Bureau of

11:33

Land Management, they

11:35

collaborated to make

11:38

a pamphlet entitled Leave

11:40

No Trace Land Ethics. Okay.

11:43

So, by 1994, it wasn't just

11:45

a pamphlet, it was a non-profit.

11:49

And the Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics. I

11:51

assume they still had pamphlets. I'm sure that they

11:53

did. They didn't plant a pamphlet and it grew

11:55

into a non-profit. You said that,

11:57

like I thought you were going to say, it wasn't just a pamphlet.

12:00

that it was a bug. But

12:02

you're like, the pamphlets somehow became

12:05

a non-profit pamphlet? Don't feed it after

12:07

midnight. That's wild. Who's

12:09

feeding pamphlets at all, baby? It

12:12

formed the educational resources they

12:14

had around seven original principles

12:16

of leave no trace, and

12:18

here they are. Okay. Plan

12:21

ahead and prepare. Okay. Travel

12:24

and camp on durable surfaces. Okay.

12:28

Dispose of waste properly. Leave

12:30

what you find. Yeah. Minimize

12:33

campfire impacts. Respect

12:36

wildlife. Yes. Be considerate

12:38

to other visitors. Yes. And

12:41

so there's- That's also the rules

12:43

when you visit a school. Yeah.

12:45

You shouldn't build campfires in school, but if

12:48

you do, minimize the impacts. And

12:52

these seven principles were kind

12:54

of like, they were

12:56

expanded and contracted and expanded, contracted over

12:58

time. And so it may

13:02

have originally like began with like 75 or

13:04

so. That's

13:06

too many. But

13:09

in 1999, those seven principles were

13:11

finalized. And

13:15

here's the thing, right? Tell me the thing. It

13:18

was a highly effective campaign.

13:22

Maybe too much. I can't wait. I

13:24

want to hear. Maybe too effective. I want

13:26

to learn, but first, how about a word

13:28

from the Max Plan show? Are

13:40

you tired of being picked on for only wanting

13:42

to talk about your cat at parties? Do you

13:44

feel as though your friends don't understand the depth

13:46

of love you have for your kitty bit? When

13:48

you look around a room of people, do you

13:50

wonder if they know sloths only have to eat

13:52

one leaf a month? Have you ever dumped someone

13:54

for saying they're just not an animal person? Us

13:57

too. She's a Lexus B

13:59

Preston. She's Ellen McAd. and we host Comfort

14:01

Creatures, the show where you can't

14:03

talk about your pets too much, animal trivia

14:05

is our love language, and dragons are just

14:07

as real as dinosaurs. Tune in to Comfort

14:09

Creatures every Thursday on Maximum Fun. What

14:19

is up, people of the world? Do you

14:21

have an argument that you keep having with

14:23

your friends and you just can't seem to

14:25

settle it and you're sitting there arguing about

14:27

whether it's Star Trek or Star Wars, or

14:29

you can't decide what is the best nut,

14:32

or can't agree on what is the best

14:34

cheese? Stop doing that. Listen

14:36

to We Got This with Mark

14:38

and Hal only on MaxFun. Your

14:41

topics ask and answer objectively, definitively,

14:43

for all time. So don't worry,

14:45

everybody. We got this. We got

14:47

this. Okay,

14:54

how effective? How effective?

14:57

There were numerous officials

14:59

and bulletin boards and

15:01

pamphlets. Smokey the Bear. Exactly.

15:04

And articles and

15:06

everything. The kids these days know who Smokey the Bear

15:09

is. I think to say who. We had a conversation,

15:11

Theresa and I talked about this, where because

15:13

so much entertainment now happens on streaming

15:16

and stuff, that I

15:18

don't think kids are exposed to

15:20

the public, the

15:24

PSAs and stuff. We had one growing up

15:26

in Huntington, I don't think

15:28

this was the universal, of Louis the Lightning

15:30

Bug. About how you gotta play safe around

15:32

electricity. You gotta play safe

15:34

around electricity. But

15:36

you had McGruff, you had Smokey the

15:39

Bear, you had Louis the Lightning Bug. You

15:41

got a lot of them. You got a

15:43

lot of them. I don't think those pop

15:45

up for kids anymore, right? I don't know.

15:47

I'm not sure. But

15:49

everybody was hopping on board this bandwagon.

15:52

We've got the Sierra Club, the National

15:54

Outdoor Leadership School, the Boys and Girls

15:56

Scouts of America. And

16:00

the National Outdoor Leadership School, the

16:02

United States Forestry Service, all

16:05

of these nonprofits and

16:07

other groups really

16:10

latched onto this. And

16:13

so it was

16:15

with the best of intentions that

16:18

it was dedicated to the

16:20

responsible enjoyment and active stewardship

16:22

of outdoors, basically. Right? It

16:25

seems like such a good thing. It really does.

16:28

And across the world

16:31

now, people model their

16:34

stewardship kind of programs

16:37

on the Leave No Trace.

16:39

We've got...there's organizations in Australia

16:41

and Canada and New Zealand and

16:43

Ireland. And here's

16:45

the thing. There are

16:48

some very valid criticisms

16:50

of this movement. We

16:53

can all agree that throwing candy

16:55

wrappers into the Grand Canyon is

16:57

some true butthead behavior. Can I

16:59

tell you who especially agrees with that? Bebe McElroy.

17:01

Yeah. Bebe McElroy gets so

17:04

angry about litter. When she sees litter,

17:06

I have seen her get angry to

17:08

tears. And if you're listening,

17:11

if you're listening to this and you

17:13

ever even think about littering, I want

17:15

you to picture my daughter getting angry

17:17

to the point of tears and then

17:19

eat your garbage. Do you hear me? Because

17:23

you even thought about it, you

17:25

eat your garbage. You goat. You're

17:28

a goat now because you

17:30

were even thinking about littering. Eat your

17:32

garbage. That's my new movement,

17:34

my new rule. Only

17:38

if you even think about littering. If

17:40

it crosses your mind, eat your garbage. And that's

17:42

how you're going to learn a new habit. I

17:46

don't want to even think about littering or I'll have

17:48

to eat this garbage. Okay. So

17:51

there are several criticisms that I

17:53

think that definitely are valid.

17:57

For example, in 2002, environmental history... James

18:00

Morton Turner argued that

18:03

the scope of responsibility for Leave No

18:05

Trace isn't actually big

18:07

enough. We've run into this where

18:09

like there's the kind of

18:11

fallacy that like every person

18:14

doing it does their part,

18:16

right? But if you don't

18:19

hold corporations and municipalities accountable,

18:22

then even

18:24

every little person doing every little thing

18:27

they can is not a drop

18:29

in the bucket, right? Yeah. We've also talked about

18:32

this before, I think, but you run into a

18:34

lot with stuff like this where maybe

18:37

what it should have been is like

18:39

the first big step on

18:41

a series of big steps to get to

18:43

a point, but you start doing this thing

18:45

and then everyone's like, okay, we solved it.

18:47

That's it. We don't have, as long as

18:49

we're doing these things, we don't, and

18:51

it's like, no, no, no, no, sorry. That was step

18:54

one. It's like, yeah, but I'm already doing these,

18:56

so I don't want to worry about it anymore,

18:58

which is always, frankly, one of the

19:00

things with like recycling that we could talk about another time,

19:02

but people will be like, no, no, no, no, I

19:04

can use as much as I want because I'm

19:07

putting it in this bin. It's like, no, no,

19:09

hey, that's not, no, no,

19:11

no. So even

19:14

though Leave No Trace focuses

19:16

on protecting the wilderness, right?

19:19

The world is not just

19:21

wilderness. And so what we

19:23

need to do is tackle

19:25

larger issues like the economy

19:27

and consumerism, like you're saying,

19:29

and the environment as a

19:31

whole, not just these patches of

19:33

forest. And that's the thing.

19:36

It's one thing, okay, not to get a little

19:38

preachy for a moment, but when we talk about

19:40

not like littering, right? That's a great start of

19:42

like you're driving down the road, don't throw your

19:44

candy wrapper out the window, right? But

19:47

then also think about when you get a package

19:49

or something, right? And there's like 18 layers

19:51

to get to the thing inside, right? It's

19:53

like, cool, you didn't litter this thing. But

19:55

let's think about the way we

19:57

package stuff the way and that's not something I

20:00

could change is something we can think about

20:03

mindful consumerism, which everyone should

20:05

be thinking about. But that

20:07

kind of thing is next step is like, yes, you didn't

20:09

throw the package out the window. Now

20:11

let's work on less packaging, on

20:14

biodegradable packaging, on packaging that doesn't

20:16

need to be thrown

20:18

away, but can be reused and stuff like that. Exactly.

20:22

And so... We focus too much on

20:24

the recycle, and now the reduce and reuse part. That's

20:27

it. That's it. Speaking of

20:29

the consumerism, right? Outdoor brands

20:31

like REI and like North Face and

20:33

all this kind of stuff, they have

20:36

approved leave-no-trace labels that

20:38

they put on their products, which

20:41

is great for them, but it

20:43

does encourage people to consume more

20:46

because maybe you already have something,

20:48

but you see that REI has

20:50

something that has a leave-no-trace label.

20:52

And so the marketing works on

20:55

you, and you purchase something that

20:57

you don't actually need. This

20:59

is a thing, once again, I feel like I'm

21:01

getting on a little pulpit here, but this is

21:04

a thing we were talking... I was talking

21:06

with Jesse Griffin yesterday about if you ever

21:08

watch... I love watching

21:10

like restoration videos of like, this is a

21:12

coffee grinder from 1912, right?

21:15

And they're like taking it apart and cleaning it and everything.

21:18

And what you find is the way

21:20

that they were constructed was to be like,

21:22

this is the old only coffee grinder you'll

21:24

ever... It didn't have bells and whistles, wasn't

21:26

fancy, but it was like two moving parts.

21:29

And as long as you like maintained it,

21:32

it just was your coffee grinder

21:34

forever, right? And

21:36

then we started getting into like, yeah, but

21:39

then if you're a person who makes coffee

21:41

grinders, you need more coffee, don't you need...

21:43

And that's where it gets into

21:45

the consumerism of making things that are

21:47

designed to break down or trying to

21:49

convince someone that the next... Like well,

21:51

this is the new sleeping bag and

21:53

it's better than the old sleeping bag

21:55

because, question mark. And it's like, okay,

21:57

cool, we're just creating more weight.

22:00

faced from these things. There are

22:02

a couple of reasons for those kind

22:04

of breakdowns. Not only is it made

22:06

more cheaply and quickly, but

22:08

also when things start to

22:10

introduce like computer components that break a

22:12

lot easier. Well, and there's also playing

22:14

about with lessons. Yes, yes. There

22:16

is a very idea of like saying like, and we're

22:18

going to stop updating this one so that you'll buy

22:21

that one. And listen, now I'm

22:23

going to step down from my pulpit and

22:25

step over here into my little shame hypocrite

22:27

corner. I am the type of person

22:29

that's like, oh, a new phone you say, a

22:31

new video game system. So don't get it twisted.

22:33

I'm not saying like, and I'm better at this

22:35

than anyone else. It's just the thing

22:37

that I've definitely become aware of more and more and

22:39

I'm trying to be better about. There are other

22:41

critiques of the Leave No Trace

22:44

movement. Dr. Kiona, who

22:46

is an incredible academic turned

22:48

entrepreneur with a focus on

22:50

education through traveling community, has

22:53

some notes and

22:55

has a beautiful article entitled,

22:58

which I cannot say the

23:01

whole title here, but you'll get the gist, how

23:03

not to be a bullying in

23:06

the outdoors. What's the

23:08

word start with? B. Okay.

23:11

So there are some cultural implications

23:13

of Leave No Trace

23:15

that lead to unintended

23:17

consequences. And

23:19

she puts it straight up racist

23:22

harassment under the guise of L-N-T

23:25

ethics. So

23:28

here are her main takeaways. Indigenous

23:31

people are not usually the

23:33

target of this audience and

23:37

they don't often, like

23:39

we said at the beginning, need to be told,

23:41

leave what you find, right? Dr.

23:44

Patroski Begay, a Navajo outdoor guide

23:46

who gave Dr. Kiona a tour

23:48

of protected land in

23:51

Utah, spoke about how the land

23:53

that they were interacting with had been

23:55

cared for by the Navajo people for

23:57

millennia. And then white

23:59

colonizers. colonized, and then ironically

24:01

created rules to preserve the land that

24:03

was already being lovingly

24:05

protected by the native people. So

24:09

the idea of leaving what you

24:11

find specifically diminishes and

24:13

invalidates the advanced knowledge and

24:16

cultures of indigenous

24:18

practices. Yeah, it's almost like,

24:20

hey, why don't you ask the people who have been

24:22

there how to do it instead

24:24

of saying, like, I think we know. We've

24:27

been here for a short blip

24:29

of time. I think we know. It

24:32

begs the question, who are we protecting this

24:34

land from? Yeah. And

24:36

for. And for. Um,

24:39

also... That's the other thing is how you

24:41

use the land, is like, yes, we're protecting this land. So

24:44

eventually we can build malls on it or whatever.

24:46

It's like, wait, no, hold on. Or

24:48

like, you know, we

24:50

have a problem with wildfires in this

24:53

country, mostly because we

24:55

do not control the

24:58

wildfires that are necessary.

25:00

Right. And everything, when

25:03

you have so much brush and

25:05

undergrowth, it keeps

25:07

all of that kind of

25:09

like dry kindling available for

25:12

an unintended fire. Whereas if

25:14

we were able to, like,

25:18

normally a wildfire

25:22

would take care of that stuff. And so you

25:24

wouldn't have all of that stuff building

25:26

up and building up and building up.

25:28

So that's the problem with keeping wildfires

25:30

away is you need the wildfires and

25:33

it also returns a lot of nutrients to

25:35

the soil, making things better for the other

25:38

things that are growing there. And you know,

25:40

I understand the

25:42

effort to protect wildlife

25:46

and homes, but at what

25:48

cost? Well, and that second

25:50

part, homes, is part of the problem.

25:52

Yeah. Of like, maybe we

25:55

shouldn't build homes here. This is, and here's

25:57

the thing, right? It makes complete sense because

25:59

when you find. some place that's

26:01

beautiful. The desire to

26:03

be there makes complete sense. Right?

26:05

This is a beautiful place. I

26:08

would like to live in a beautiful place. That

26:10

makes complete sense and I get that. But

26:13

I've heard

26:15

from people who work in like wildfire

26:18

services, right? That one

26:20

of the reason nowadays wildfires can

26:23

seem so scary is

26:25

because not because the wildfire encroaches

26:28

into where people

26:30

have been living, but as people

26:33

encroach into where the wildfires

26:36

happen, now you're doing things

26:38

like disrupting where a

26:40

natural break in the wildfire would happen

26:43

because you built a thing there, right?

26:45

When you've added houses there. And

26:47

so now it's like, well yeah, people are

26:49

in danger a lot more from wildfires now

26:52

because there are a lot more people

26:54

where wildfires happen than where they used

26:56

to be. You know that kind of

26:58

thing. I'm a fan of

27:00

controlled burns and staying out

27:02

of the wilderness. Yes. Okay.

27:05

Smoky never said that. Smoky should have

27:07

been like, and also you can prefer

27:09

to prevent forest fires and maybe also

27:11

don't live here. Like I'm a bear.

27:13

This is where I live. Give me

27:15

a house. Do you

27:17

want to trade? You can come live

27:19

in a cave. Okay. The

27:21

next thing is the Leave

27:26

No Trace gives quiet ammunition

27:28

to white supremacy. Oh no. Dr. Kiana

27:30

spoke with

27:32

Rebecca Macaro, a member

27:35

of the, please

27:38

excuse my pronunciation, Pemo

27:42

Kuchakum Nation in

27:44

California who says

27:46

that she specifically was harassed

27:49

while on an educational culture trip to

27:51

pick poppies and chia and other plants

27:53

that have been ancestral foods for

27:56

her community for generations. And

27:58

during one of her approved She

28:02

was harassed by a passing white

28:05

man who was

28:07

yelling at her about the leave no trace,

28:10

leave what you find kind of ideas, right? And

28:13

so although we

28:15

want people to be empowered to

28:17

protect the wilderness, you

28:20

never know what someone is doing, right?

28:23

And it is not your job

28:26

to police other people. Just

28:29

so you know, that's a good umbrella rule,

28:31

not just for leave no trace, but

28:34

a lot of things

28:36

you see nowadays are because somebody

28:38

takes it upon themselves to be

28:41

the rule keeper of an area

28:43

or store or neighborhood or something

28:45

like that. And it's

28:47

don't do that. Hey, don't do that. So

28:51

I think that although it

28:53

has some really great points, we

28:56

want to make sure that we are not making

28:58

sure that other people do it correctly, right? Because

29:02

you first of all, never know what kind of

29:04

permits they already have. And

29:06

they might find enjoyment in different

29:08

ways than you do, right? For

29:10

example, one of

29:13

the tenants that we

29:15

talked about was be considerate of

29:17

other people around you,

29:19

right? In the wild, enjoying their

29:21

own thing. And

29:24

maybe for you, consideration

29:26

means quiet contemplation, right?

29:29

But maybe for someone else, it

29:32

means joyful laughter or singing. It

29:35

means like a drum

29:38

circle. A drum circle, sure. Lots

29:40

of different things it could mean. And

29:43

it is like we said, not anyone else's

29:45

job to tell

29:48

them what they're doing is wrong,

29:50

just like you wouldn't want someone to come up to

29:52

you and say, you are being

29:54

too quiet and still stop it. Yeah, right?

29:56

You're creeving me out. What

30:00

do we do? Be

30:03

cool. Sure. Here

30:06

are some ways to ethically practice.

30:09

Leave no trace. Okay.

30:11

Plan ahead and prepare. That's one of the first ones. That's a

30:13

great one, yes. Right? Look up

30:15

the place you're going to visit. Are there any special concerns

30:18

or regulations? What are the animals like?

30:20

Should you refrain from making a fire because of the

30:23

dry season? Check out their

30:25

website. Okay? Make a

30:27

plan. Also, are there approved places

30:29

to stay? Yes. Because I

30:31

don't know if you all know this. You

30:34

can't just go and be like, I'm camping

30:36

here now, mostly. At least when you're talking

30:38

about like national and state forests and stuff

30:40

like that. Mm-hmm. Have a backup

30:42

plan for extreme weather. Figure out when

30:46

might be the busiest time and try to

30:48

avoid the busiest times. On

30:51

that note, try to use

30:53

the smallest group possible, okay?

30:56

Because the more people who are in your

30:58

party, the more impact you're going

31:00

to make on this space

31:02

that you probably don't actually live in,

31:05

right? Repackage

31:07

your food as best you can to minimize

31:09

waste. And to keep it from bears.

31:11

Mm-hmm. Look into a bear-proof

31:13

bag. You think that if bears are one

31:16

of the animals that you might encounter or

31:19

might be in the general area that you're

31:21

in. And when

31:23

exploring, use a map, a compass, or a

31:25

GPS. That way, you

31:27

can cut down on marking paints

31:30

and like rock herons are flagging the

31:33

trails for yourself. And

31:35

also, if something else

31:37

has been, is there, just leave

31:39

it. Leave it alone. I

31:41

know that there are different reports of

31:44

people making like rock herons in rivers

31:46

and stuff like that. And

31:49

there have been different campaigns to like if you see

31:52

one of these, push it down. It doesn't mean anything.

31:54

It's just destroying the habitat for the fish. Like all

31:56

that kind of stuff, right? Good

31:59

job. Just... Just leave it. Don't make

32:01

any more. Just leave it.

32:03

Because again, that's not your job. The

32:06

people who are, you know, like the

32:08

rangers of the area, they can go.

32:10

They can push those down. But

32:13

just leave it. You could pick up trash though. Okay.

32:16

Yeah. Your trash and any other trash you

32:19

find. Second one,

32:21

traveling camp on durable surfaces. The

32:24

best campsites are found, not made.

32:26

And the best campsites are set out ahead

32:29

of time for you to be there because

32:31

that's what they're made for. Keep

32:35

your campsites small. And

32:37

if you're camping by a lake or a stream, be back at

32:39

least 200 feet so you don't

32:42

disturb the bank of the river or

32:44

the stream. So you don't roll into the

32:46

stream while you're sleeping. Sure. Stick to

32:48

the trails and walk single file

32:50

in the middle of the trail so that

32:52

you don't disturb the flora of the fauna

32:54

on either side. And if you have

32:56

to go off the trail to relieve

32:59

yourself, I

33:01

mean, you don't want to like do

33:04

that in the middle of the trail, right? Do

33:07

your business real quick. That doesn't violate leave

33:09

no trace because even a bear poops in

33:11

the woods, right? They do. Okay. I've been

33:13

wondering now and no one's ever answered

33:15

it for me. But you do have

33:18

to dispose of it properly. If

33:20

you cannot get to a facility, you need

33:23

to dig a hole that is at least

33:25

six to eight inches deep. And

33:28

again, 200 feet from water camps

33:30

or trails and then cover the hole

33:32

when you're done. That's

33:34

for solid waste. Remember

33:36

to pack it in and pack it out. Inspect

33:39

your campsite, food prep areas, rest areas,

33:41

any other places you used before you

33:43

move on. Packing out all of

33:45

your trash and leftover food and any of that

33:47

other stuff. If you're

33:49

washing dishes, which is something that we used to

33:51

do at the Girl Scout camps that I would

33:54

go to, make

33:56

sure that you are again, 200 feet

33:58

from lakes or streams and you use a

34:00

very small amount of biodegradable soap

34:04

and don't throw it

34:06

back in the river. Drain and

34:08

scatter your dish water when you're

34:10

done using it. Okay? All

34:12

right. Leave what you

34:14

find means, like you said, take pictures,

34:16

not petals. Photographs and stuff are

34:18

perfect. No souvenirs, just memories and

34:20

pictures. That's it. Five souvenirs and a

34:23

gift shop. Like

34:25

I said, don't build structures or furniture

34:27

or dig trenches on any

34:29

of that stuff. Don't do any of

34:32

that stuff. But again, it's not your

34:34

business. What other people are doing, assume

34:36

kind intent and proper permits. When you

34:38

see someone harvesting something, interacting with something

34:41

in a way, you wouldn't, you

34:43

know, use your judgment. A lady with

34:46

a group of kids respectfully harvesting chia

34:48

seeds is way different from a

34:50

group of dumb teenagers

34:52

throwing trash

34:54

at trees. Minimize

34:57

the impact of your campfire means

35:00

lighting fires in permitted places

35:02

like established firings, pans

35:04

and mounds. Keeping them

35:07

small, making sure that all the wood

35:09

and coals are burned to ash and

35:11

scattering and raking them when you're finished.

35:13

Don't just dump water on it because especially

35:15

like big logs and stuff, you don't

35:17

know if it's all the way out. Those things can steam

35:19

and reignite for a while. Sand and

35:21

dirt is a much better way to ensure

35:23

that it is completely out. Smother it is

35:26

way better. And check safety

35:28

advisories. You may not even be allowed to

35:30

make a campfire at that point. Respect

35:33

the wildlife. Enjoy and

35:35

observe from a distance. Do not

35:37

feed anything.

35:41

We talked about storing food securely,

35:43

controlling pets or leave them at

35:45

home. Ask

35:47

the ranger at your park if

35:50

there are any sensitive wildlife time. For

35:52

example, is it a mating season? Is

35:54

it a nesting season? All

35:56

that kind of stuff is very important. It makes

35:59

your visit. it better and it makes the

36:02

wildlife there better. Be

36:04

considerate of other visitors. Like we

36:06

said, this is the one

36:08

that is brought up the most but

36:11

also the most forgotten, right? Yeah. Because

36:14

you shouldn't harass people. Yeah,

36:16

just in general. Just in general. So

36:19

being considerate means acting in a

36:21

considerate way in the same

36:23

way that you would want to be treated,

36:25

right? Yeah. So there are

36:27

very, very, very few situations where you

36:29

would ever need to approach another camper

36:32

or hiker or wildlife enjoyer to voice

36:34

your opinion. It is not your job.

36:37

Ask yourself several questions before you

36:39

even do. Questions like, why

36:41

am I interacting with this person? Do I

36:44

see something that could actively hurt them right

36:46

now or I'd like to protect them

36:48

from? Or am I

36:50

just sharing my opinion, an extension of

36:52

me policing a person's experience? So that I

36:54

feel superior to them. Exactly. You

36:56

are not a ranger. So

36:58

if you feel that you

37:02

still need to

37:04

say something, don't and go

37:06

get someone who's in charge. Okay?

37:09

Great. Step

37:12

downhill of the trail when you're

37:14

encountering a pack stock. That's like

37:16

a donkey carrying things, right? And

37:19

then do your best to

37:21

personally avoid

37:24

loud noises so that other people

37:27

can enjoy themselves, right? But if

37:29

someone is, like I said, if someone is

37:31

being loud, singing or expressing joy, that's

37:35

beautiful too. Consider

37:38

that instead of chastising that

37:40

person, walk somewhere else quieter. Yeah.

37:43

And consider this. We

37:45

want to say thank you to our editor, Rachel,

37:47

without whom we could not make this show. Thank

37:49

you to our researcher, Alex, without whom we could

37:52

not make this show. And thank you for listening.

37:54

We could make a show without you. That would

37:56

be silly. I also want to say thank

37:58

you to my wife, Teresa. She is my Rock.

38:00

She is the Rock. And we want to let

38:03

you know a couple things. One, we

38:05

just announced a bunch of My Brother, My Brother

38:07

Me and Adventure Zone tours. If you go to

38:09

the McElroy.family, you will

38:11

find all the information there.

38:13

But we've got upcoming shows

38:15

at the end of April

38:17

here in Chicago. Being My Brother, My Brother

38:19

Me on April 24th is sold out, but

38:21

we still have a few tickets for the

38:24

April 25th Adventure Zone. And then we're going

38:26

to be at C2E2. You can find all

38:28

that information and all the new tours by

38:30

also going to bit.ly slash McElroyTours. We've got a

38:32

bunch of merch. If you haven't seen me yet,

38:35

go to mcelroymerch.com. What

38:37

else, Teresa? We always thank Brent

38:39

Brentalfos Black for writing our theme music, which

38:41

is available as a ringtone where those are

38:43

found. Also, thank you to Bruja Betty Pinup

38:45

Photography for the cover picture of our fan-run

38:47

Facebook group, Schmanners Fanners. If you love to

38:50

give and get excellent advice from other fans,

38:52

go ahead and join that group today. Always

38:55

send your topic submissions, your

38:57

questions, your idioms to schmannerscastatgmail.com.

39:00

And if you are interested in

39:02

this topic some more, please check

39:04

out the Instagram community of Unlikely

39:07

Hikers. Also, Dr. Keownis website is

39:09

great. And you can check out

39:11

the Urban Wilderness Program for another

39:13

great resource, bringing everyone

39:16

together to enjoy the

39:18

wilderness. And that's going to do it. Join us again

39:20

next week. No RSVP required.

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