0:03

Sex outside my marriage is

0:06

maybe more playful. It has new relationship

0:09

energy with it. It's kind of like

0:11

buyer worky and crazy and like

0:13

tickley and exciting. That's

0:19

Alice and she loves

0:21

sex. Alice isn't

0:23

her real name, but everything else she told

0:25

me is true. I generated a

0:28

lot of energy and a lot of joy from interacting

0:30

with other people, and that includes romantic

0:32

land sexually. And she loves to play

0:35

and try new things. My sexual

0:37

needs and desires and my body is kind of like

0:40

this scavenger hunt because it keeps changing and

0:42

there's dead ends and you have to like find different

0:44

things. But she also very

0:47

much loves her husband. He

0:49

knows me so well that he follows that map

0:51

and it's amazing and we

0:53

can try anything together because we have so

0:56

much trust and so much safety in our

0:58

relationship. Despite how

1:00

great things were with her husband, Alice

1:02

just wasn't getting everything she wanted

1:04

sexually from him. She craved new

1:06

bodies, new excitement, new experiences,

1:09

and like many of the women we've talked to in previous

1:12

episodes, she decided to have an

1:14

affair to find what she wanted. But

1:17

here's what's different. After

1:19

Alice had her first sexual encounter outside

1:21

of her marriage. She chose to

1:23

tell her husband the truth, and

1:26

then she asked him if he'd be open to her

1:29

doing it again. I'm

1:32

Joe Piazza and you're listening

1:34

to She Wants More, the podcast

1:36

where real women talk openly and honestly

1:39

about the extra marital affairs that have completely

1:42

changed their lives. Open

1:45

marriages have been coming up in a lot of

1:47

our recent conversations, and

1:49

at first we debated even talking

1:51

about it. This is a podcast

1:53

about affairs. It sex outside

1:56

your marriage an affair If it isn't a secret,

1:59

is it secret part that makes the affair?

2:02

I don't actually know the answer to that.

2:06

Actually. In last week's episode, our

2:08

expert Alexandra Fine, the sexologist

2:11

and founder of sex toy brand Dame, even

2:14

shared that she's in an open marriage.

2:17

I'm in more of an open marriage. You form

2:19

patterns and habits for a reason, and having

2:22

a new space to get to explore, to be

2:24

different. I think that's how we're

2:26

constantly refinding ourselves. Many

2:29

of our guests, including Wednesday Martin

2:31

and doctor Ashley Thompson, have even

2:34

suggested that consensual non monogamy

2:36

open marriages could be a healthier

2:38

way for women who are considering affairs

2:41

to get their sexual needs met without

2:43

betraying someone. In

2:45

recent years, the stigma around open marriages

2:48

seems to be lessening. Google

2:50

searches for terms like polyamory and

2:53

non monogamy have increased substantially

2:56

since twenty sixteen, and

2:58

I'm pretty sure that all the ex positivity

3:00

flooding our social media feeds is

3:03

also contributing to more curiosity

3:05

on the subject. Younger

3:07

people in particular, seemed to be especially

3:09

receptive to the idea of it. A

3:11

recent Tender study revealed that one fifth

3:14

of gen z users said that they would be

3:16

open to considering polyamory. So,

3:19

could open marriages be the answer for

3:21

some women who are considering having an affair who

3:24

are already having one? Could

3:27

open marriages be the answer for women who are in a

3:29

position of authority or privilege

3:31

to be able to ask for one.

3:34

That is what I wanted to find out. Before

3:38

she met her husband, Alice never thought

3:41

that she'd get married or have a traditional

3:43

monogamous relationship. Leading

3:48

up to dating my husband. I really

3:51

wasn't in any long term

3:53

monogamous relationships. I saw

3:55

a lot of relationships that

3:57

had one partner. That was quite controlling. Saw

4:01

especially parents losing their identities

4:03

to just be parents, and like

4:06

you didn't know who they were beyond

4:08

being a parent. They had no hobbies,

4:13

they had nothing that they seemed to be interested

4:15

in, and so I

4:18

just grew up being these I

4:21

basically felt like I saw the same relationship over

4:23

and over and over with my friends parents,

4:25

and seeing my friends

4:28

and how they were dating, it all

4:30

just seemed not

4:32

very much fun. It seemed like

4:35

people were losing themselves. I

4:37

just knew that. The way I understood it

4:39

is I don't ever want to get married. That doesn't make sense.

4:43

But then Alice did meet her husband. We

4:47

met through doing yoga

4:49

together, and they

4:51

just were in the same circle of friends

4:53

for a few months, and one

4:56

day we in our circle

4:58

of friends ended up ending the whole day

5:01

out together. And it

5:03

was interesting because it wasn't this like flare

5:06

of oh, I'm so attracted to this

5:09

person and I need to have them or I

5:11

wonder what will happen. It was just like friendship

5:14

with like an peak of interest. And

5:16

a couple weeks later, we ended up

5:18

in another event together and we ended up staying out

5:20

all night and because

5:22

we are having so much fun. We just kept going out. And

5:25

then the next day I was riding

5:27

my bike and talking to a friend and

5:29

I said, I met the person I'm going to marry,

5:31

and I'm freaked out because I don't

5:33

believe in marriage and I am

5:36

too young for this, and I don't feel like

5:39

this makes sense at all, and yet I know I

5:41

want to and I'm going to marry this person. So

5:43

you did it. You're just like, this is the person. It

5:46

was just really clear to me, and again

5:49

was confusing because I truly didn't believe in marriage.

5:51

I'd never seen a super successful

5:53

marriage, at least not the way I wanted to live my life.

5:56

I didn't have a model of

5:58

what I thought I be as

6:00

a wife. I'm

6:03

also queer, and so like the idea

6:06

of like committing to this

6:08

one person, of this one gender felt like

6:11

a lot for me. And

6:13

I had never been in a monogamous relationship, and I

6:15

had an assumption that if I was with this person,

6:18

that's what that would mean as well. So

6:20

we dated and we felt

6:22

very quickly for each other. He felt similarly.

6:26

He had been in a lot of long term relationships,

6:28

but just didn't feel the same as this one

6:30

for him. Within three months, we were already

6:32

talking about our future together. We

6:34

were engaged within eight months, and

6:37

we were married within a year

6:39

and a half of our first date. Prior

6:42

to getting married, had the two of you discussed

6:44

non monogamy. Not

6:46

really, So within

6:49

a couple weeks of dating each other, I

6:51

was traveling and was

6:54

visiting friends and I got this cryptic

6:56

phone call at like the middle

6:58

of the night. That

7:02

call was from Alice's future husband,

7:05

and he very urgently wanted to know if

7:08

she was sleeping with anyone else. He's

7:10

like, I just need to know if we're monogamous. I

7:13

was like, I don't care, or do you want to be monogamous? And he

7:15

said yes, and I was like, all right, so we

7:17

are. And so we had a discussion

7:20

that we should be monogamous. That was sort of our commitment

7:22

moment, I guess. So before

7:25

they even got married, Alice had to set

7:27

some boundaries. She is this

7:29

naturally affectionate person, the

7:31

kind of person who likes to cuddle and hug

7:34

and be touchy with her friends. So

7:36

it was very important to her that she makes sure

7:39

that her soon to be husband was okay

7:41

with her craving touch from other people,

7:44

and he was I

7:46

could never have chosen a partner who wasn't comfortable

7:49

with that. I would have never dated

7:51

him if he wasn't comfortable with that. I

7:53

could never be in any sort of sustained relationship

7:56

with one person who didn't support

7:59

touch outside of the relationship. But

8:02

then a few years later, after

8:04

they were married, something very

8:07

different happened, something that definitely

8:09

crossed the line of what they'd agreed

8:12

to when they first got married. Alice

8:14

had sex with someone else and

8:17

she knew that it crossed the boundary.

8:20

Instead of hiding it, Alice

8:22

decided to tell her husband what happened. After

8:25

all, they had already communicated in the past

8:28

about touch and being affectionate with others

8:30

outside of their marriage, and that conversation

8:33

had gone okay.

8:36

I told him pretty much the second after it happened,

8:39

like within you know, twelve hours

8:41

have been happened, and he just noticed.

8:44

He checked in with his feelings and he said that he just

8:46

didn't he didn't care, like he didn't

8:48

feel threatened by it. He knew it

8:50

wasn't about him. He felt like

8:52

our relationship was strong, and he didn't

8:55

feel lied too, because I told him pretty much the second

8:57

after it happened. I really

8:59

didn't know what to expect when Alice said

9:01

she told her husband what happened twelve

9:03

hours after she had sex with someone else, anything

9:06

could happened. But he was okay

9:09

with it. He was okay with it because

9:11

Alice didn't lie to him, and

9:14

so he and I

9:17

then really had our first conversation about

9:19

what non monogamy is for me and

9:21

for him. We had a

9:24

conversation around

9:27

limits and boundaries of what feels safe

9:29

for us, Like he personally

9:32

wanted anogamy for himself, and

9:35

he understands that what I need

9:37

to feel fulfilled is

9:40

to be connecting to other people. I'm

9:43

an extreme extrovert, like I'm beyond

9:46

the boundaries extroversion, and

9:49

I generated a lot of energy and a lot

9:51

of joy from interacting with other people, and

9:53

that includes romantically and sexually. My

9:56

husband's more of an introvert. He likes

9:59

a lot of alone time, and so this

10:01

actually balances our relationship better because

10:03

it fills this need that I

10:05

have for a lot of engagement,

10:08

a lot of energy, a lot of attention, a

10:10

lot of touch. Like

10:13

he really understood that, and

10:15

so it's been really

10:17

important for me not to keep things

10:20

and not be in the shadows at any point

10:23

about my sexuality and my

10:26

non monogamy, and he's

10:28

been really amazing and receptive through the years

10:30

about it. Everybody

10:33

has different definitions of what

10:35

are the boundaries in our relationship?

10:38

What does it mean to us to feel that we

10:40

can trust each other. That's doctor

10:43

Laurie Gottlieb, psychotherapist

10:45

and New York Times bestselling author. If

10:47

you remember we talked to her in our episode about

10:50

loneliness, We called

10:52

her up again to ask a few questions about

10:54

boundaries, communication and

10:56

marriage. One of the things I really

10:59

wanted to know was whether doctor

11:01

Gottlieb pop partners needed to talk about their

11:03

boundaries before they

11:05

even got married. This

11:07

is why people come before marriage. People think,

11:10

oh, they must be having problems before

11:12

they even got married because they're going to therapy.

11:14

No, people come all the time for premarital

11:17

therapy to talk about these kinds

11:19

of things so that they are on the same

11:21

page about them, so that they can at least open

11:23

up the conversations and understand.

11:26

How do we talk about these things that can

11:28

be really challenging to talk about. I

11:30

asked doctor Gottlieb if it can be challenging

11:33

for couples to talk to each other because

11:35

we don't always know what our boundaries are.

11:38

In fact, we might not even realize

11:40

that a boundary exists until

11:42

it's been crossed, right. We don't

11:45

until we feel like one of them has been

11:47

violated, and then we say,

11:49

oh, look what you did, and the other person says, wait

11:51

a minute, I didn't think I was doing anything.

11:54

Now, Sometimes they know they're doing something, so sometimes it's

11:56

a clear boundary violation, But there are many

11:58

times when two people have

12:00

very different ideas about what

12:02

it means to be faithful

12:05

to the other person. If

12:08

two people can have very different ideas

12:10

about what it means to be faithful, then

12:13

does that mean that the definition of an affair

12:15

could be different for everyone. And

12:18

how do we define a betrayal in a marriage anyway?

12:21

Is it when something is a secret, when

12:24

it's a lie, or

12:26

is it as simple as when there's a lack

12:28

of communication between partners. We'll

12:32

be talking about all of this as we learn even

12:34

more about Alice's experience, as

12:37

well as how being intimate with other people

12:39

actually ended up helping her sex life with

12:41

her husband. We're

12:50

back, So

12:53

talk to me a little bit about when you first opened

12:56

up the marriage on your end, what did

12:58

the two of you have to work through for

13:00

this to work, What boundaries had to be put

13:03

in place, and what kinds

13:05

of communication had to be put in place. Surprisingly,

13:08

we didn't really have to work through much at all.

13:11

I am an incredibly busy person, and

13:13

so it limits how much time I have for

13:15

anything outside of the marriage anyway, which

13:18

creates a boundary in and of itself. I

13:20

tend to have either very

13:23

spontaneous random

13:25

experiences like at

13:27

a play party or like a

13:30

one night stand, or sort

13:32

of in depth long relationships

13:36

with people that I don't

13:38

see that often and who are

13:41

like maybe friendly, who I also have

13:43

a sexual relationship with. And so it

13:46

has never been threatening to the

13:48

marriage because there hasn't been a lot of like the

13:50

in between where I'm like dating somebody actively

13:52

and needing to prioritize a lot of time

13:55

with that person. And the agreement

13:57

that my husband and I have is that if it takes

14:00

energy and time away from our family, or

14:02

at any point he doesn't feel like a priority,

14:04

than it has to end. We also have an agreement

14:06

that if we're not in a good place in our marriage,

14:08

and we're not connecting emotionally, physically

14:12

really in any way. Like if we feel

14:15

estranged in some way, then

14:18

we do not explore outside

14:20

the marriage at all. It's just like

14:22

immediate lockdown. So

14:24

a good example of that is like after

14:27

I gave birth, it was a really hard

14:29

moment for me. I was working,

14:32

going to school, breastfeeding, like

14:34

momming, it was so

14:37

full on, and so just

14:39

everything shut down our

14:42

marriage and our family sure quite

14:44

a while. More recently, we've

14:46

been in conversation that

14:49

involves more limits and boundaries now

14:51

that my kid is older and I have more

14:53

time. And I use this word

14:55

super lovingly, but I just feel sluttier in the

14:57

best of ways, and I feel super embodied

15:00

and like really high sex drive right now.

15:02

And so I want to be going out more and meeting more people.

15:04

And a lot of my friends are in like Polly

15:07

relationships, and so I am feeling

15:09

much more like amped

15:11

up about going out. And so we have had

15:13

to have those conversations that you're

15:15

talking about that we didn't before.

15:18

So limits and boundaries on like what he

15:20

feels comfortable with is regarding

15:22

time some as regarding sexual acts

15:24

that he prefers I do or do not share with other

15:27

people. Most recently it's about

15:29

kink play with impact with people. I

15:34

was playing with a friend of mine and

15:36

he bit my leg and I had like

15:38

a pretty gnarly bruise from it, and my

15:41

husband was upset because then he had to look at it and

15:43

it made him unhappy to look at a

15:45

bruise on my body. And I

15:47

didn't mind. It was playful and fun of the moment,

15:49

and so I asked him. I was like, do

15:51

you want that to be a limit? And he said, well, if you

15:54

need it and it turns you on, I don't want to tell, you know.

15:56

And so we got into a little bit of this like loop

15:58

of me asking him, him saying, but I don't

16:01

want to restrict you. And it was like we played around

16:03

this thing for a little while until finally he's

16:05

like, yeah, I don't want you to be bruised, and I'm like, well,

16:07

that is no problem. That was like a

16:09

recent boundary. The

16:12

other thing, and this has been since

16:14

the very beginning, is it has to be safe

16:16

sex with anyone. You know, condoms

16:19

and STI checks and just

16:22

really considerate of sexual health. And

16:25

that's like a hard, incredibly

16:27

hard line that's been there since the very beginning.

16:31

Alice's husband wasn't very

16:33

interested in physical non

16:35

monogamy. He wasn't regularly

16:37

searching or something outside the marriage, but

16:39

he was allowed to if he wanted to,

16:42

and because of that, Alice had

16:44

to consider what her boundaries were

16:46

for him. Buying

16:49

gifts was my boundary because like,

16:51

money is such a complicated thing in a marriage

16:54

anyway. Yeah, there's something about that

16:56

that I felt time upon and not making

16:58

gifts. He wanted to make somebody something for someone

17:00

that would be fine, like taking someone

17:02

out is fine. It was like the physical act of giving

17:05

a gift. I think it's so interesting.

17:07

I think the thing that would make all of us uncomfortable is

17:09

different. I'm trying to think what would

17:13

really piss me off if I was setting

17:15

boundaries with my husband,

17:18

Long emotional conversations

17:20

might or even gift giving.

17:22

I never thought about that before, or frankly,

17:24

acts of service him doing the dishes or taking

17:26

the garbage out in some other woman's house

17:28

would really get under my fucking skin.

17:31

Yeah, and a lot of the women that I speak to have

17:33

similar boundaries. In heterosexual

17:36

relationships, like if their male

17:38

partners are doing like gift giving or acts

17:40

of service. That is a trigger for a lot of the women.

17:42

I know. Your sex

17:44

dribe has increased. Now, do you think it's

17:46

because you're emerging from

17:48

that phase of our lives that I

17:50

don't think it's talked about enough of motherhood

17:53

of a child of a certain age, and you're

17:56

feeling more comfortable

17:58

in your body. Again, what do you think is

18:00

the reason I always

18:02

felt good about my body. I've had really great body

18:04

image my whole life. And what

18:07

actually changed was I'm like the primary

18:09

breadwinner in our house, and I work a

18:11

lot, and I run a business, and

18:15

I also try to be like an incredibly

18:17

present mother and

18:20

be a good wife, to be a good daughter, and be

18:22

a good sister and a

18:25

good friend. And so I think the

18:27

pressures of early motherhood.

18:30

I think all of that dampened

18:32

my sex drive quite a bit. I'm

18:35

in a care position with my family and

18:37

my friends a lot, and so caring for other people

18:39

all the time, I think to

18:42

dampened my sex drive. And then COVID

18:45

obliterated it with

18:47

anxiety and sort of the world feeling

18:51

more scary, more intense,

18:54

So I feel like I'm coming out of

18:56

this phase of

18:59

having to do a lot of care externally, giving

19:02

away a lot of my energy all the

19:04

time, and I actually have some reserves

19:07

left. I also feel

19:09

really healthy in my body. And

19:13

my husband after he got of a sect

19:15

to me, that really helped because we weren't worried about

19:17

getting pregnant, and so

19:19

that helped because when we're having more

19:21

sex at home and better sex and feeling more connected

19:24

at home than that turns out my sex

19:26

drive too. Being

19:28

non monogamous has definitely impacted

19:30

the sex aalysis had with their husband. For the better

19:34

sex inside. My marriage

19:37

is one more frequent,

19:40

which is great. It's more intimate.

19:42

It's been building for

19:44

a decade and a half, and so we know each

19:46

other's bodies so well. I

19:49

joke that my sexual

19:51

needs and desires and my body is kind of like

19:53

a scavenger hunt because it keeps changing and

19:55

there's dead ends and you have to like find different

19:58

things. So my husband has to do extra

20:00

work because my taste changed kind of frequently,

20:02

like a shape shifter a bit. But he

20:05

knows me so well that he follows that map

20:07

and it's amazing and we

20:09

can try anything together because we have

20:11

so much trust and so much safety

20:13

in our relationship that we want to try feel

20:16

safe with him, and our bodies just fit

20:18

together right, Like our kiss is

20:20

perfect and it's

20:23

different and better and sects outside

20:25

My marriage is maybe

20:28

more playful. It has new relationship

20:30

energy with it, which I think

20:33

most people know what that feels like. It's kind of like

20:35

buyerworky and crazy and like

20:37

tickling and exciting, and

20:41

it's very exploratory because

20:44

it's new people and you're getting to know somebody

20:46

knew, whether it's a single serving interaction

20:49

or like multiple engagements

20:51

with that person. And I like the

20:53

balance of having both. The one

20:55

that I need is the one in

20:58

my marriage. The one that I also to

21:00

add in and want is this stuff outside

21:02

in the marriage. I also

21:04

asked Alice if she thought that sex with partners

21:06

outside of her marriage has made her marriage stronger

21:09

in a way, or even

21:12

if it's made her a better mother. I

21:14

think, like a thousand percent. We

21:17

have had stretches in our marriage where we're

21:19

monogamous, and

21:22

that works for me too, but there

21:24

again, it's chosen. But I

21:27

am definitely happier, and I

21:29

bring that happiness home with me when I get

21:32

to be with other people and it

21:34

lightens me up. I have a lot of anxiety

21:37

from life, but it lowers

21:40

my anxiety. It makes me just

21:43

a nicer person to be around, truly. And

21:45

then I bring that home and I am lighthearted

21:48

at home, and I'm more compassionate at home. It's

21:50

just it's actually better for all of us. We

21:56

live in a society the defaults to monogamy

21:58

for better or worse, and anything

22:01

outside of that norm often gets

22:03

judged. But more and more

22:05

women are questioning those norms these

22:07

days. And I have

22:10

to say, after doing all these interviews, I

22:12

think that there's a lot that monogamous

22:14

couples, couples who would never consider

22:16

an open marriage, can actually

22:19

learn from open relationships. When

22:23

we decided to be monogamous right in the beginning,

22:26

when he asked me, are we monogamous and

22:29

we asked if we could be, I meant

22:31

yes, And it felt good to say yes. It felt

22:33

good to put attention to what

22:36

we were building in that moment. And also

22:38

I think there was just a part of me that knew that it

22:40

was going to be okay and we weren't going to stay in that

22:43

place, But it felt really good to put one

22:45

hundred percent of my energy and attention into building

22:47

this and cultivating this relationship, and

22:49

so it never felt contained by it because it was chosen.

22:53

And I think that's the difference of like going into

22:55

default monogamy, where women, especially

22:58

women feel repressed or owned

23:00

or contained, versus choosing monogamy,

23:03

which which I just want to be with my partner and

23:05

I'm saying that, and I own that and it's mine,

23:08

and that feels totally different to me. And so

23:10

in the beginning of our relationship, we had chosen a monogamy

23:12

which felt amazing, and then when

23:15

it didn't feel so amazing because I wanted

23:17

to do other things, I did them and he said it

23:19

was okay. And then we continued to open and

23:21

open from that point and

23:24

we still talk about it. I don't just go

23:26

out and not tell him what I'm

23:28

doing. I don't keep him in the dark

23:30

of anything. I want to make sure that it

23:33

feels okay if I'm going to go out and

23:35

have a date with someone else. I think that there's

23:38

this stereotype of marriage,

23:41

and I mean we hear it all the time of like, oh,

23:43

like if in a hetero marriage, like men

23:45

complaining about their wives, for example, and

23:48

like wives nagging their husbands, and like all of those

23:50

like stereotypes. That's what I was really

23:52

fed as a child, Like that's what I heard

23:54

all over. There wasn't even any

23:57

like queer couples that I was exposed to and

23:59

new, and so it was all this heteronormative,

24:01

patriarchal bullshit that

24:04

totally didn't make sense to me. As early as

24:06

I could remember, I didn't know that you could construct

24:09

a whole type of relationship that

24:11

you wanted and that you can co create with

24:13

somebody else's relationship you actually want, friendship

24:16

or as a sexual or romantic partner. As

24:19

we mentioned, Alice and her husband share a

24:21

daughter. She's young, too

24:24

young to talk about these things, but

24:26

that won't always be the case, and

24:28

kids also pick up on everything.

24:33

I really wanted to know how

24:35

Alice and her husband might need to broach their

24:37

open marriage at some point. I

24:40

don't think she knows what monogamy is. She just

24:42

I think has an assumption that she's

24:45

heard me and her dad say, like

24:47

people don't own each other, They don't own each lenge bodies

24:49

Like Mom could go do what she wants, Dad could

24:51

go do what he wants. And it's not sexual

24:53

right because she doesn't even she's not even old enough to understand

24:56

what that is yet. But it's about like releasing

25:00

this idea of ownership and so she

25:02

can actually choose. She might choose to be monogamous at

25:04

some point, but I don't want anyone

25:06

to tell her what to do with herself, you know. I want

25:08

her to choose it if she wants to choose it. And

25:11

so the way we framed it so far far

25:13

is just about like engaging in the world, like

25:15

Mom goes and does this thing. Mom stays out all night sometimes

25:18

Dad does this thing, and Dad goes on

25:20

vacation by himself sometimes, like it's part

25:22

of that conversation. So it

25:25

feels very like it's happening

25:27

organically that she's knowing about this. It

25:30

doesn't feel like something I have to like come out about

25:32

because it's just something I do. Like

25:35

coming out and being queer and having people know that

25:37

feels important because that's an identity. But

25:40

like I don't identify as polyamorous.

25:42

It's just like it's what I do. It's in my life

25:44

and it fulfills this thing because

25:46

I'm just a really highly sexual person, and

25:49

I specifically am like

25:52

I like to engage with other people in a sexual way.

25:55

We'll be back after a short break. We're

26:04

back. For some people,

26:06

it's easy to keep things completely physical.

26:09

We've heard from plenty of women on the show who've

26:11

managed to do just that. But

26:14

for every one of those women, we've talked to someone

26:17

who's crossed an emotional line and fallen

26:19

deeper than they expected. I

26:22

asked Alice if that had ever happened to her. I've

26:25

had a few people like tell me they love me, and I'm

26:27

like, so, I think this might

26:29

be the end of that relationship because

26:32

I don't want to get more complicated than that. So

26:34

you know, it's just I try to feel out each relationship

26:37

and see what feels the safe is, because

26:39

truly, the thing I like about them is

26:41

a sexual piece. Like I don't need a bunch

26:43

of other partners. I had a long

26:45

term connection with one person and

26:48

it developed into something else, and that

26:50

happened sort of organically and maybe accidentally,

26:53

and it was complicated for us. That was when

26:55

we had more talking involved, and then

26:58

it ended because things in and

27:00

it didn't work in our lives anymore. But the

27:03

way we navigated it was the same way as we navigate

27:06

all the rest of the stuff is like does my husband

27:08

feel like a priority? Is my

27:10

time being spent mostly at home? How

27:12

communicative and honest story being about

27:14

everything? And so

27:17

we just followed all the rules and it worked

27:19

out fine. What

27:21

we know in the literature is yes,

27:24

by and large, open relationships.

27:26

So these pessentially non monogamous relationships

27:29

are beneficial, caveat

27:31

being that they need to be communicated. That's

27:35

doctor Ashley Thompson again. Remember

27:37

her, she's the sex professor, an

27:39

expert that we talked to in episode three. Doctor

27:42

Thompson has done a lot of research in open

27:44

marriages, consensual non monogamy,

27:47

and here's what she's found. So

27:52

when you see people really strategically

27:55

introduced polyamory or open relationships

27:57

into maybe what was once a monogamous relationship,

28:00

if they talk about it with their partner, figure

28:02

out what's acceptable and what's not, it overwhelmingly

28:06

is a positive experience. And

28:08

so consensual no monogamy can help out

28:10

there where you know what, maybe your primary relationship

28:12

is fantastic, but you're missing

28:14

a few things here, and you can get those things

28:16

there without breaching trust in

28:19

a way that everyone is accepting

28:21

of it just seems to me like a win win. Why

28:24

not if everyone's cool with it, let's get all our

28:26

needs met in whatever ways we need. Maybe

28:30

this is a win win. Your sexual needs

28:33

get met and no one gets lied

28:35

to, no one's betrayed. The

28:38

stigma of extramarital relationships

28:40

can be eroded. But that

28:42

in itself kind of feels like a world

28:44

that a lot of people in our society still

28:47

won't be able to accept. But

28:49

what I hope you take from this is that by talking about

28:51

it, by having these real and honest conversations

28:54

about different models of being partnered with another

28:57

human being, those conversations

28:59

might help us start being more comfortable figuring

29:01

out what does make us happy

29:03

and to start asking for it.

29:07

If this podcast has made you wonder whether everyone

29:09

is having an affair right now, whether it's

29:11

just completely pervasive and you're

29:13

the only one who's left out, you're not alone.

29:16

But I also don't think that's true. I

29:19

believe monogamy still works for a lot of people.

29:22

But I gotta tell you that through my

29:24

reporting, I found that having an affair,

29:27

that finding someone to do it with seems

29:30

to be easier than ever, and

29:32

that, like many things in our life,

29:34

from getting groceries to call in a cab,

29:37

is mostly due to changes in technology.

29:40

Technology has made it easier than ever

29:43

to have extramarital affairs, and

29:45

it has also really shifted

29:48

our understanding of what exactly

29:50

a boundary is. Could

29:53

an affair mean casual flirting

29:55

on Facebook message? Could

29:57

an affair means someone activate

30:00

a remote vibrator from MC content

30:02

and away. That's the thing, by the way

30:04

it is, and we are diving into

30:07

all of it next week. We're

30:09

talking about why affairs are easier than ever

30:11

before, how women use technology

30:13

to get away with them, and how

30:15

they juggle multiple affairs while working,

30:18

taking care of kids and everything

30:21

else that women do. This

30:25

is She Wants More. I'm your host

30:27

Joe Piazza. She

30:30

Wants More was inspired by the book A Passion

30:32

for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish.

30:35

It was adapted for audio by executive

30:37

producers Merrill Poster, Karat

30:39

Pfeiffer, and Susan Shapiro Bearish.

30:42

She Wants More is hosted and reported by me

30:45

Joe Piazza. Jennifer

30:47

Bassett is our lead producer. And story editor.

30:50

Our sound design is by Jessica Crinchich.

30:53

Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpf

30:55

and Hamilton Lighthouser. Our

30:57

executive producers for iHeart are Ali

31:00

Ry and Nikki Etour. She

31:02

Wants More as a production of iHeart Podcasts.

31:05

For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio

31:08

app, Apple Podcasts, or

31:10

wherever you listen to your favorite shows.