0:01

We just instantly fell

0:04

into very very comfortable,

0:06

crazy sex with each other. Let we'd

0:10

scoop you up on the bed, throw

0:12

you clothes flying everywhere, like

0:14

it was great. That's

0:20

Michelle. Like most of

0:22

the women you've heard on this show, Michelle isn't

0:24

her real name, but everything else

0:26

about her story is completely true.

0:29

Michelle is in her late twenties, she's

0:31

married, She lives in the Midwest, and

0:34

she has a two year old daughter with her husband, who

0:37

she was very happily married too until

0:39

recently. Like

0:41

our last guest, Michelle never thought she'd

0:43

be someone who'd have an affair, but

0:46

once she tried it, it changed her

0:48

life for the better in so many ways that she

0:50

couldn't stop. Not just

0:52

because of the sex. Don't get

0:54

me wrong, the sex was good, but

0:58

because having the affair made

1:00

her take better care of herself. Obviously,

1:03

good sex is great, but also especially

1:06

when you're new on a relationship and having

1:08

sex for the first time with people, you make

1:10

sure that your legs are shaved really

1:13

well and that your skin is soft and

1:15

your makeup done. Those little self

1:17

care things too, also make

1:20

you feel really good about yourself, and

1:22

so I just found myself

1:24

taking better care of Me. I'm

1:27

Joe Piazza, and you are listening to

1:29

She Wants More, the podcast

1:32

where real women talk openly and honestly

1:34

about the extra marital affairs that have

1:36

completely changed their lives. I

1:41

think people want to oversimplify it.

1:44

You have the sex addiction, or you're

1:47

just selfish, But there's so many

1:49

things like it's self care, things

1:52

like that that people don't even think about. Listening

1:55

to Michelle sing the virtues of her affair

1:58

in terms of improving her self esteem

2:00

and helping her take better care of herself, I

2:02

couldn't help but think of the recent movement

2:05

to equate sex with wellness

2:07

and self care for women. How

2:09

all of a sudden, women exploring

2:11

their sexuality, their passion, their desires,

2:14

both with and without a partner, has

2:17

become a wellness practice.

2:20

I want to read you some recent headlines

2:22

as an example. Let me pull them up.

2:26

Okay, we've got this one from

2:28

Refinery twenty nine titled

2:31

It's time to give your vagina the TLC

2:33

it deserves. Here's

2:35

another in Vogue, Dakota

2:37

Johnson is here to remind you that

2:40

sexual wellness is self

2:42

care. And one last one on

2:44

the well and good site. Picture

2:46

this one with exclamation points and fireworks

2:49

around it. The era of

2:51

sexual self care is here,

2:55

fellok. I don't know if affairs

2:58

and finding pleasure really are

3:00

a form of wellness or if

3:02

women just feel the need to say that

3:04

sex is a form of wellness in order

3:07

to feel okay with talking

3:09

about and having sex. But

3:12

I'm going to tell you, after doing

3:15

dozens of interviews with women who've had affairs

3:17

outside of their marriage, I do

3:19

hear this language over and over

3:22

again that these affairs

3:24

have given the women the same kinds of benefits

3:26

that you often hear them talking about from

3:28

doing meditation or yoga.

3:31

It's something that I needed, something I deserved.

3:34

It really helped me recharge my batteries.

3:37

This was just for me.

3:39

It makes me less resentful, less

3:42

fitful. I deserve to be

3:44

happy. I deserved it. Sell good. Are

3:48

they talking about yoga or

3:50

orgasms? Could be either

3:52

one. Cheating can

3:55

be just another drop in the bucket of

3:57

self care, self love, and

4:00

wellness. The research

4:02

backs this up. A recent survey

4:04

by Ashley Madison, the online

4:06

dating service for people who are married or in relationships,

4:10

found that female users see

4:12

their affairs as a form of self care.

4:15

In fact, sixty four percent of women

4:17

said they feel more confident during an affair.

4:20

Fifty four percent of women reported feeling

4:22

more desirable when they had another

4:24

lover. Ashley

4:26

Madison also reports, and this sat is

4:28

really fun, that fifteen percent of women sent

4:31

up for their sight the day after Mother's Day

4:33

as a kind of treat for themselves on their

4:35

special day. If

4:39

there is anything that I've learned from reporting

4:41

on these past four episodes, it's

4:43

that a lot of women are not getting

4:46

what they need from their primary partner, So

4:50

why not treat themselves to something better,

4:53

something that improves their well being in

4:55

a way that most of us don't feel comfortable

4:57

talking about. But

5:00

before we get to that, I want us

5:02

to dive into Michelle's story. I

5:04

want to learn more about how her affairs

5:06

started and then how

5:09

it made her more attentive to her own needs.

5:12

That's after the break, we're

5:21

back talking to Michelle about

5:23

both her marriage and her affair.

5:27

Tell me a little bit about your marriage.

5:29

What was your marriage like in the early days. So

5:32

initially we met online, and

5:34

then as we started talking,

5:37

we just learned that we actually went to the

5:39

same college and lived

5:42

really close to each other in the beginning.

5:45

We had a pretty solid relationship,

5:48

pretty normal. We moved in

5:50

together pretty quickly, and

5:52

then got engaged after about three

5:54

and a half years and married off for four

5:56

years together and

5:59

then made the decision a

6:01

couple of years ago to move from

6:03

Colorado out to Nebraska,

6:06

and that was where we started

6:09

having our daughter and career

6:11

changes and that kind of stuff. Was

6:13

that disruptive to your relationship at all?

6:16

In some ways, the move was, but it

6:19

also ended up being really good

6:21

for us. My husband was

6:23

very, very close to his family and very

6:26

reliant on them and didn't

6:28

have a ton of his own

6:30

independence, which was definitely

6:32

something that we fought about. And so when

6:35

we got here and they weren't like a fifteen

6:37

minute drive away, he definitely

6:40

sort of grew up a little bit

6:43

and it's helped a lot. So

6:45

talk to me a little bit about when

6:47

you decided you needed more from

6:49

your marriage. My husband,

6:53

he's a wonderful person, but

6:56

he was never a

6:58

very sexual individual, and also

7:01

he had a lot of traumas

7:05

that he never never

7:07

really acknowledged, and so he

7:09

got to a point where he just was very,

7:12

very depressed. Her

7:16

husband wasn't taking care of himself,

7:19

and he also wasn't taking care of Michelle.

7:22

So she took matters into her own hands

7:24

and decided that she was going

7:26

to take care of herself. And

7:29

so there came a day where

7:31

I was folding this zillionth load

7:33

of laundry and doing the dishes, all

7:36

while trying to work, and I just hit a

7:38

breaking point where I was like, I'm

7:40

not having sex, I'm

7:43

getting yelled at all day by customers,

7:45

i am doing all the housework,

7:47

all the cooking, all the cleaning, and

7:50

I need somebody to pay attention to me. And

7:53

so that was when I sort of just

7:55

cracked and I went online, and

7:58

honestly, I'm pretty sure Shery just did a Google

8:01

search of like dating sites for married

8:03

people. That's how Michelle

8:05

discovered Ashley Madison. And

8:07

like some of our other guests, she just

8:09

signed up on a whim, not even

8:11

really sure what she was gonna do with it

8:14

or what to expect. Okay,

8:18

so you go on Ashley Madison. What was the first

8:20

time on Ashley Madison? Like, and what did

8:22

you put in your profile? So the first

8:24

time, I know, I was definitely

8:27

a little overwhelmed, Like I

8:29

started getting messages

8:32

and acknowledgements and stuff like right

8:35

away, and so that was little

8:37

more than I was expecting. For sure.

8:40

I kept my profile pretty

8:44

minimal. I think I had like one picture.

8:48

I think it basically just said married

8:50

woman tired of not having sex, looking

8:53

for somebody

8:55

to just kind of have fun with. And

8:57

was that catnep for men? I

9:00

would think probably, I

9:03

think that. So how

9:06

did you decide who to meet

9:08

up with first? So geography

9:11

was a big thing because if I

9:13

was going to get involved as somebody, I wanted somebody

9:16

that it wasn't going to be like a

9:18

big to do to see them. Convenience.

9:21

I just want everything to be really easy in my life right

9:23

exactly, instant gratification.

9:25

I want to get laid, and I want to get laid now,

9:28

not in a week after driving

9:30

two hours. So

9:33

what was your first meeting? Like, who did you choose?

9:36

So he was

9:38

a personal trainer. That sounds

9:41

hot just I don't know, I know nothing

9:43

else and it sounds like I know there's something

9:45

about that job title that

9:47

you're just like, all right, yep. Yeah.

9:51

So we talked a lot before

9:54

we ended up meeting, just about

9:56

our relationship situations

9:59

and even just jobs, music,

10:01

some of that basic getting to know

10:03

you stuff, but then we also jumped

10:06

really fast into sexual needs

10:08

because obviously both of us

10:11

that was the biggest thing that was missing in our relationships

10:13

was good sex, and so that was

10:15

one thing we talked about really quickly,

10:18

was just to make sure we were even like sexually

10:20

compatible. So what did

10:22

you both say about your sexual needs?

10:24

How did you express that? So we ended

10:27

up both being in very similar

10:29

situations where we loved

10:31

the people that we were with and the friendship

10:34

was great, but sex was

10:36

not what we were looking for. Both

10:38

of us ended up having really high sex

10:40

drives on partners with really low sex

10:42

drives, and then he

10:44

ended up being the type of person that just

10:47

is very alpha male in bed, whereas

10:49

I'm the type that really needs to

10:51

be with somebody that's that way. And

10:54

so that instantly

10:57

for both of us was just it meshed

11:00

very very very well. Michelle

11:03

decided the chemistry was there, and

11:06

she took the risk and met the personal trainer

11:08

in person. She was very careful

11:11

to first choose a public place

11:13

where she could quickly escape

11:16

get out of there if necessary, So

11:20

that first night that we met, we

11:22

spent a couple hours. We went to a park.

11:24

We went for a walk and we just talked for

11:26

a long time. We people watched,

11:29

I would say, pretty quickly both

11:32

of us just were comfortable

11:34

with each other. I got this

11:36

gut feeling that like, okay, not a serial

11:38

killer, this is okay. And

11:41

kind of the same for him with me, And so

11:43

he walked me to his bar and we almost

11:46

did it in the trunk of my car, but there was

11:48

a car seat in it, so that didn't work

11:50

out very well. But

11:52

after the failed first encounter, they

11:55

decided to meet again, this

11:57

time at Michelle's house on

11:59

our lunch break when her husband was at

12:01

work and her daughter was at daycare. And

12:05

what was the next day, like amazing,

12:11

So you Canda coming over on my lunch

12:14

break. We just like instantly

12:17

fell into very very comfortable,

12:20

crazy sex with each other, like

12:23

scoop me up on the bed, throw

12:25

you, clothes flying everywhere, like

12:28

it was great like

12:31

movie sex. And after

12:34

that, did you do it again with this

12:36

person or did you decide, you know what, I'm going to try

12:38

it with someone else. We did

12:41

have we yeah, a couple

12:43

of times, and then our schedules just

12:45

kind of didn't mesh super well. So

12:47

I did end up with somebody else,

12:50

but only one other person,

12:52

and he was very sweet. Was

12:55

it different in some ways?

12:57

Yeah? With the second guy, there was

12:59

a little bit more of a friendship than just

13:02

like a let's go at it

13:04

sort of relationship, which was

13:06

nice. The sex was also really

13:08

good with him too. How

13:11

do you keep these kind of secret?

13:13

How do you keep it so that your husband doesn't

13:15

find out? So I work from

13:17

home while he works in the office, so

13:20

during those work hours it's really easy

13:22

for me to kind of do whatever. It was

13:24

also just pretty careful. I didn't

13:27

give out my phone numbers, so we did use a messenging

13:29

app and the evenings and

13:31

stuff, I would uninstall it from my phone,

13:34

and I just was careful, you know, if

13:36

we were together, I wasn't checking

13:38

my messages or any of that kind of stuff,

13:40

and so, you know, I made it very clear that

13:43

like evenings and weekends, my daughter was always

13:45

going to be my priority, and so

13:47

if I wasn't responding, I was

13:50

likely with my family. But

13:52

my husband also was just very

13:54

oblivious to anything I was doing. Were

13:57

you ever nervous about him finding out? That's

14:00

really in the beginning, But

14:03

once I sort of figured out what worked

14:05

for me and how I could easily cover

14:07

it up not really at all. How

14:11

did have any affair make you

14:13

feel? And how do you think

14:15

it improved your life?

14:19

You know? I think that in some ways

14:21

it just was I

14:23

mean, it sounds terrible, but it was like a band

14:26

aid, Like I didn't have to deal

14:28

with my marital problems. It was kind

14:30

of an escape of somebody paying attention

14:33

to me and just having fun for a little

14:35

bit. And so because I kind

14:37

of had that stress relief, holding

14:39

this laundry didn't bug me as much.

14:42

And especially having had an affair,

14:45

It's complicated, and I think people

14:47

want to oversimplify it into

14:49

like you have a sex addiction or

14:52

you're just selfish, But there's so

14:54

many things self care eat

14:58

things like that that people don't even think about. I

15:02

had to talk to someone who is an expert

15:05

in all of this, so we called

15:07

up Alexandra Fine. She

15:09

is actually a Goop approved

15:12

that is a thing, sex educator and

15:14

the CEO of sexual wellness brand

15:17

Dame, which makes everything from

15:19

vibrators to gummies to libricants.

15:22

She also has a master's in clinical psychology

15:25

from Columbia. I was very

15:27

excited for this conversation because

15:29

I really wanted to dig into this

15:31

idea of the intersection of pleasure,

15:34

sex, and wellness. I

15:37

think self care is about prioritizing yourself.

15:40

It's taking care of you. Women

15:42

have a honestly

15:44

a sort of beautiful habit of putting

15:47

other people first and not necessarily putting

15:49

themselves first. We have this

15:51

idea of sex as being bad, as

15:53

being naughty, instead of considering

15:56

it to be core to our well

15:58

being and something worth besting our

16:00

time into. And I think that's really like the

16:03

core of self care. It's just like taking

16:05

time for you. I

16:09

think it's really important that we fill ourselves up.

16:12

When we fill ourselves up and we know who

16:14

we are and we love ourselves, we

16:16

can so much more easily love

16:18

others and then show up and be there

16:20

for other people. But when we

16:22

are drained, we are not our best

16:24

selves. Pleasure has

16:27

a really powerful place in self

16:29

care because we are entitled

16:31

to it and need to make sure we're having space for

16:33

it. You can sleep better is

16:36

like one. It's like good for your stress

16:38

level. Oh wait, are you telling me all of the things

16:40

that orgasms do for our bodies? Yes,

16:43

I don't know if I can list them all, but it

16:46

does impact our court soil level,

16:48

so it reduces stress. It makes it easier for

16:50

us to go to sleep, I can boost

16:52

your immune system. It releases oxytocin

16:55

in your brain, which is that love bonding

16:57

chemical. So it has

17:00

a lot of really positive

17:02

physical impacts,

17:05

both in our minds and in our bodies.

17:07

I think that masturbation, too, has

17:09

a really meditative quality to it, and that

17:11

we can lock into that if we're interested here.

17:15

It is right here, sex equaling

17:17

wellness for women, and

17:20

maybe it's true. It might be true,

17:23

or maybe just maybe it's

17:25

the only way that we feel

17:27

like it's culturally acceptable to

17:30

talk about women having sex. But

17:32

regardless, I love love, love

17:35

love. What Alexandra is talking about,

17:38

sex is good. Pleasure is good. Women

17:40

deserve to feel good. We felt bad for a long

17:42

time in the history of the world. We

17:45

deserve this. We're

17:47

going to take a short break, but when we're

17:49

back, we'll be hearing more of Michelle's

17:51

story and how she struggles with how her

17:53

affairs have made her life so much better

17:56

with her devout Christian beliefs.

18:06

We are back. Michelle

18:09

is a devout Christian. She loves her

18:11

faith, she loves God, but

18:14

she also wants to be happy and fulfilled.

18:18

It's definitely something that I pretty

18:21

regularly rustle through and

18:24

then also just these thoughts of like, God

18:26

didn't create me to be miserable,

18:29

So if pursuing something like

18:31

this makes me happy, then I guess that's

18:33

okay. But then

18:35

on the flip side of that, you're also like it says

18:37

adultery is so bad. It

18:40

was definitely something that I

18:42

really really struggle with

18:45

and still do. But

18:49

I just have to believe that if

18:52

the God I believe in truly

18:54

did die for the sin of the world, like

18:57

they teach you in church, then

18:59

he eyed for that thin too. So

19:04

that's sort of where I land. And is it ideal?

19:07

No, like, but you

19:09

know, it's it's where I'm in this

19:11

stage of life. I

19:14

mean, there's no lack

19:16

of affairs in the higher echelons

19:18

of Christian culture. If Jerry

19:21

Falwell Jr. Has taught us anything, yes,

19:25

yes, I mean morality you can go

19:28

essentially in circles and

19:32

it can get really complicated. But

19:34

it sounds like you've thought about it a lot.

19:38

Affairs can be complicated, Morality

19:41

can go around in circles. And

19:44

while we're talking to a lot of women who

19:46

found themselves feeling more fulfilled

19:48

and happier after having an affair, there

19:51

are just as many who feel the opposite,

19:54

who've seen their marriages and families ruined

19:57

by affairs. It's all a

19:59

great area and there are no easy

20:02

answers. That's one of the reasons

20:04

that women take so many precautions

20:06

to keep their affairs a secret. Do

20:09

you have any rules or boundaries that help

20:12

keep the affairs from seeping

20:14

into your life with your partner and

20:16

your child? So the biggest one is

20:18

just very much separation.

20:21

They will never meet my daughter. They know

20:23

she exists, like obviously you

20:26

can't come to my house and not see its other explosion

20:28

everywhere, but they will never meet

20:30

her. There will never be that kind of overlap.

20:33

I don't give out my phone number, I don't give out

20:35

personal information. Did you give my

20:37

address? But I

20:39

don't give out the gate code or anything like

20:41

that. So I really try to kind of take

20:44

steps to make sure that I do have some personal

20:46

security. Do you think

20:48

that there will be a point where you'll stop

20:51

cheating on your husband or do you see this

20:53

as something ongoing to

20:56

kind of sustain your marriage. I

20:59

mean, I think truly it's going to kind of come

21:01

down to my husband if he starts

21:04

making positive changes, you

21:07

know, taking care of himself, creating

21:10

an environment where we have a better sex

21:13

life, things like that, than

21:16

hopefully. But

21:18

I also I'm at a place

21:20

where my needs made to be met, and if

21:22

he's not going to meet them, I'm gonna

21:25

get them met. Yeah, that's

21:27

fair. Have you told him what you

21:29

wanted? Yeah,

21:32

we have tried talking about it. He gets

21:34

very awkward about talking about

21:36

sex. We watched fifty Shades

21:39

of Great together, which is a dreadful

21:41

movie, but it's really bad,

21:43

so bad. It's so bad.

21:46

I wanted it to be good, but it was awful.

21:49

But we watched it together,

21:51

and you sort of hope that it sparked some interest

21:54

in like, oh, maybe I should like spack

21:56

your ass a little bit, But like nothing,

21:59

He just is very awkward about it. Very

22:02

vanilla lifestyle, vanilla

22:04

sex life like that, no

22:06

real desire to explore. So

22:10

he would also kind of need to grow

22:13

up a little bit in that department. I

22:17

asked Michelle if she ever thought about

22:19

her daughter when she was thinking

22:22

about her affairs and if she'd considered

22:24

what would happen if her daughter one day found

22:26

out about those affairs. You

22:30

know, it's easy, especially in

22:33

this day age, even more so in Christian

22:35

culture. Women are very much

22:37

put in a box. You know, you're supposed

22:40

to do X, Y and Z and

22:42

be happy about it at shut up and that's your

22:44

life. And like for her, I

22:46

want more for her. I want her

22:48

to be happy. I don't want her to settle

22:50

for anything, and I want

22:52

her to know that it's okay

22:56

to do what you need

22:58

to do for you. And I've

23:00

that means that you go find someone

23:02

and have wild and crazy, amazing sex.

23:05

Didn't do it like be safe, have

23:08

an exit strategy, but like,

23:10

if that's what you need in that

23:12

moment, it's okay. As

23:14

long as you're not hurting people or

23:17

doing drugs, it's okay

23:19

to do what you need to do for yourself.

23:24

People really believe that sex

23:26

is bad and that they're going to go to hell. We

23:29

went back to sexual wellness expert and

23:31

Dame CEO Alexandra Fine to

23:33

get her final take on all of this. I

23:36

can't tell you how many couples come out to me or how many women

23:38

feel weird if they want sex more than their partner,

23:41

like that they feel like that's like not right.

23:44

A lot of you have a lot of shame too,

23:47

Like to me, I have found

23:49

God through my sexuality, and

23:51

I think to so many people like that's

23:53

a crazy idea. But I think

23:55

sex is sacred. But that's like such a

23:58

weird concept for people because

24:01

that seems to trigger

24:03

people to think that they shouldn't have sex in some

24:05

way. And that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying it

24:07

is really beautiful and it's really powerful

24:10

and we should honor it. Just

24:12

to be able to connect, to be able to feel

24:14

seen in that way. I

24:17

think that we're all entitled

24:19

to that, and I think it's to me,

24:21

it feels very human to seek that. Look,

24:24

I'm in more of an open marriage. I

24:27

think that it's really

24:29

sad and really tough to feel like

24:31

you have to betray

24:34

somebody in order to do that. But

24:36

that's so inaccessible to people, and I

24:39

totally realize that it's so tough.

24:42

This interview went in a different direction than

24:44

I expected. Alexander

24:46

came on as an expert in sexual wellness,

24:49

and then we found ourselves talking about how

24:51

she ended up in an open marriage herself.

24:54

The idea of open marriages is

24:57

very interesting too me

25:00

and my producers, and we've thought a

25:02

lot about them while reporting

25:04

on this podcast. See, an

25:06

open marriage isn't necessarily

25:09

an affair, not if

25:11

all parties know everything that is

25:13

happening. But we

25:15

do think it's really interesting to

25:18

explore more of what an open marriage

25:20

means in this podcast because

25:23

in some ways it feels like the evolution

25:26

of the traditional affair. And

25:28

so next week that is what we're talking

25:30

about. We're talking

25:33

to Alice, a woman who says that

25:35

opening up her marriage may have actually

25:38

saved it. And it all

25:40

started with an affair. I

25:42

told him that I had

25:44

had a sexual experience with someone else, and

25:47

so he and I

25:50

then really had our first conversation about

25:52

what non monogamy is, and he said he

25:54

just wasn't a non monogamous

25:56

person. He understands that what I

25:58

need to feel also filled is

26:02

to be connecting to other people. That's

26:05

next week this is She Wants

26:07

More. I'm your host, Joe Piazza.

26:11

She Wants More was inspired by the book A

26:13

Passion for More by Susan Shapiro

26:15

Bearish. It was adapted for audio

26:17

by executive producers Merrill Poster,

26:20

Kara Pfeiffer, and Susan Shapiro

26:22

Bearish. She Wants More is hosted

26:25

and reported by me Joe Piazza.

26:28

Jennifer Bassett is our lead producer and story

26:30

editor. Our sound design

26:32

is by Jessica Crunchich. Our theme

26:35

was composed by Anna Stumpf and Hamilton

26:37

Lighthouser. Our executive producers

26:39

for iHeart are Ali Perry and Nikki

26:42

Eatore. She Wants More

26:44

as a production of iHeart Podcasts.

26:46

For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio

26:49

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

26:51

you listen to your favorite shows.