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Speaker 1 00:00:07 We are passionate people. If you weren't passionate, you probably wouldn't be listening to this podcast. And passionate people get excited. And when I get excited, sometimes I want to do all the things. I want to do everything at once. I don't wanna leave anything out. I wanna have all the experiences, and usually that works out for me. Life can be great like that, and often it can be exhausting. And sometimes I screw stuff up because I'm trying to do too much at the same time. Today's episode is about how to build your regeneratively minded cannabis farm with balance. It's about building your soil without blowing up the farm. It's about staying busy without going crazy, and it's about building sustainable future without being your own bully. If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. Speaker 1 00:00:59 We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, delivered right to your inbox, along with commentary on a couple of the most important news items from the week. And videos too. Don't rely on social media to let you know when a new episode is published. Sign up for the updates to make sure you don't miss an episode. Also, we're giving away very cool prizes to folks who are signed up to receive the newsletter. This month's giveaway sponsor is fish poop brand fish poop. Fish poop fertilizer, feeds, plants and microbes, and improves soil structure with rich organic matter. It contains available nutrients for the quick feed and undigested organic material for slow release. With a wealth of beneficial organisms, five lucky winners will receive a whole gallon of fish poop, along with some fish poop swag. So go to shaping fire.com to sign up for the newsletter and be entered into this month's and all future newsletter prize drawings. Speaker 1 00:01:53 Also, it is true that I've been away for a minute. Thanks for the messages from the folks who were checking on me. My father passed away last month, and I was off the farm and back home in Michigan, helping with his end of life preparations. I'm back now and back at it. So thanks for your patience. You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host, Shang Los. Welcome to episode 114. My guest today is Daniel Stein. Daniel Stein was born in Humboldt County and grew up in Hawaii. He went to college first for engineering, and then for soils, forestry, and eventually environmental science. He started farming vegetables in cannabis in Hawaii, doing lettuce farming and permaculture installations while caretaking a citrus and avocado orchard in the jungle on land that was part of Terrence McKenna's ethno botanical gardens. In fact, Daniel returned to the home in Humbold where he was born and started gardening and farming in 2000. Speaker 1 00:02:47 In 2010, he met his wife Taylor, and they became Priceland Forest Farm. They started selling vegetables at farmer's markets in 2011. In 2016, they entered the regulated cannabis market. In 2017, Priceland Forest Farm won the Regenerative Cannabis Farm Award. That was a great year at Emerald Cup. Nowadays, they grow about three quarters of an acre of vegetables, 5,000 square feet of cannabis, and a small orchard and perennial garden, all low or no-till. Today, we're gonna use Daniel's parcel as an example of how to approach growing regeneratively on your own new parcel or transitioning from petroleum and salt fertilizers to regenerative growing. The lessons learned from his parcel can likely be transferred to yours as well. During the first set, we'll talk about assessing your property for cannabis cultivation, building soil, and choosing cover crops and companion plants for cannabis. In the second set, we will discuss water sequestration, animal husbandry, and animal fertilizers, and if crop rotation applies to cannabis. And we finish the episode considering controlled fire burns, long-term research opportunities and the economics of growing cannabis regeneratively, welcome to Shaping Fire, Daniel. Speaker 2 00:04:00 Ah, happy to be here. Speaker 1 00:04:01 Thank you so much for giving us some of your time on a, on a busy midweek Tuesday during the spring. I know that you have gotta be totally busy on the farm right now, getting everything in place for the summer crops. Speaker 2 00:04:12 Absolutely. But it, it's really nice to have the excuse and opportunity to sit down for a minute, <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:04:17 Excellent. Fantastic. Um, uh, I like that you have set up outdoors. Um, I think you're, this is the first time I've ever had somebody set up outdoors, so, so you dear listener can enjoy the, uh, the, the birds of Humboldt during the interview <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:04:31 And I can too. Speaker 1 00:04:32 Excellent. So let's get right into it. So, you know, um, I understand that when you arrived on your property, you knew you had a lot to do to make your property into a functional farm. And, and I think that's the case with a lot of new homesteaders. What were the biggest concerns or projects that you knew you needed to address first off, in order to build out your farm? Speaker 2 00:04:54 So, I, I mean, on a homestead level, the first thing was making sure I had a place to stay. But, but on, on, on the, the land level, the, the property had been, um, unmaintained for quite a long time. So in terms of gardening, the first thing I had to do is cle the space. We're, we're in a forest environment, and the forest had had re encroached a lot of tree seedlings, uh, Himalaya, blackberry, white thorn, various plants that, that had re encroached on, on historic garden spaces. So my first order business was, was to get to clearing some burning, some chipping when I could borrow a chipper. I had very little resources at the time. And then, um, for cultivating cannabis, which, which I was really excited to do here, um, was building a greenhouse. When I came back onto the property, um, it was 2000 and, uh, we were in the two 15 days where it was vague what, what the legality was, but if you hid it in a greenhouse where they couldn't see it and get a warrant, you were, you were pretty safe. So clearing enough space, building a greenhouse. And then as I started to build out the garden as it was cleared, my next order of business was getting a soil test. So I, I knew what I was dealing with and knew my approach to bringing that soil in that gardening space to a place where it was productive again. Speaker 1 00:06:18 Right on. I wanna hit on a couple of those. Let's, let's start with the clearing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, I don't have a big parcel. My, my farm is pretty small. It's actually more like a homestead with a big garden. And, um, you know, I know that when it gets right down to it, if I wanna clear something and want it to be, if I want it to stay clear, I need to clear it down to the roots. Um, yep. It sounds like you've done a lot of clearing for people who are new to their property and they, they need to clear things, um, like, uh, like Scotch Broom where I live, which is absolutely heinous. Um, mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, did you learn any tricks about clearing that, that you would recommend to somebody who is new at clearing? Speaker 2 00:06:58 Um, do it while you're young. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:07:00 <laugh>, Speaker 2 00:07:02 Um, scotch Broom specifically, there's great tools for that. And, and some of those tools like a weed wrench and, and various tools that are specifically for, for small woody things under, under an inch diameter stems that give you leverage to pull things out are, are wonderful. They work somewhat for Blackberry. One of the things I've learned in land development is it's really worth just doing it right from the start. You know, I didn't have a lot of resources at the time I was doing this. It would've been worth it to hire a, a mini excavator or rent one and, and just, just get it done from the start. Do that land disturbance early on on land that you're already transitioning from one thing to another, where the disturbance won't make as big of an impact, do the disturbance, and then heal the disturbance with, with kind of the new paradigm, uh, of, uh, of a different, uh, biological, uh, pattern happening. Speaker 1 00:08:05 I like the suggestion that you're making that, like, you know, as regenerative farmers, we're looking to do, in most cases as little disturbance as possible, but you weigh that realistically over time and over the fact that you needed to be able to get in your crops in order to make the revenue to sustain the farm. So you're like, all right, well, I, I can either do some, you know, careful disturbance now and, and, and then come right behind it with a lot of healing, or I can wait and do it the slow way all by hand and then potentially miss the season, which also will not be good for the farm. And so you, you really weighed the type of disturbance that you're going to do, and I think that clarity is important. Speaker 2 00:08:47 Well, and, and even in the long term, like there's the heavy handed disturbance, uh, of, um, bringing machinery onto the land, but then if you have, say, small diameter a foot to 18 inch diameter trees, and you don't get the roots out, you will be coming back in with a chainsaw depending on the species of trees and, and burning fuel and using oil again and again and again, um, to keep that held back. So it's like, uh, you know, more upfront and then, and then, um, the lack of disturbance or a continuous disturbance to maintain that project, Speaker 1 00:09:27 You know, a lot i it, your, your experience of getting on the property and then, uh, first off needing to, uh, get a greenhouse going is that's a pretty typical experience. And, um, I've, I've talked to different farmers and, and I enjoy hearing, um, how they decided where to place their greenhouse because, you know, on some properties it's obvious, right? You put it into one place that gets the most sun Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But if, if you've got things like, you know, um, uh, uh, seasonal sun changes or, or sun is available everywhere on the property, um, there can be a lot of competing, um, uh, reasons to, of, of placement. Uh, how did you come to the decision of where to put your greenhouse? Speaker 2 00:10:11 Uh, well, um, you know, I would've loved to have been on the land for five years before I made any infrastructure commitments, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to, to kinda see the pattern of things. And, and one piece of advice I would give to new homesteaders is really to, to think about if you can make infrastructure that's functional, but not permanent in the early part of homesteading. So like, if you do put your greenhouse somewhere where it makes sense when you first do it, but then it makes less sense as time goes on, you can take it apart and move it to somewhere new. Um, but yeah, I, I've seen a lot of, of land development, especially around cannabis growing, make mistakes as far as that, that desire to get in your cash crop and the first season makes you rush and make kind of the decisions that you can pull off rather than the decisions you want to see in the long term. Um, and, and there's no way around that to some extent, but, um, I, I'm kind of wandering off. I forgot the, the aim of the question at first. Oh, Speaker 1 00:11:21 That's, that's all right. You know, I think that you make a good point that the first step on the new parcel is not to dig, uh, the first step on the new parcel is to put down your chair in the middle of the, of the, of the area and look at it with notes and, and, and really like, think and dream and plan before you dive into making things. And, um, uh, that planning part, you don't wanna short shrift because, you know, it kind of reminds me of, you know, uh, the whole measure twice cut once idea. Exactly. You really don't wanna build the greenhouse and then have to move the greenhouse in the same season. It's really better to spend a little bit of time that you think you might be able to, might, should be doing something else, and, and really plan out what you're going to do for the season. There. Speaker 2 00:12:09 I, I can't even count the number of times I, I've confidently made a design or a decision about something like irrigation, ordered a bunch of parts, spent money, put it all together, and then realized the areas where it falls short <laugh>. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:12:26 So a lot of people, um, who are coming to their property also have got limited resources like you did. And, um, they really struggle. I have really struggled on the, okay, it's, it's my first season and I, I need to get going. Um, I can either do a, a fast and cheap greenhouse, or I can build something that I'll be proud of and will last me a long time. And, and, you know, perhaps I can go even later in the season because if I get an, uh, an unexpected snow, I'll be able to handle it. You know? How how did you weigh that for yourself? The, the, the wanting to not waste resources, but needed to get something up, but also not having the resources to just throw money at it and make something, you know, make a castle greenhouse right outta the bat? Speaker 2 00:13:17 Well, I mean, there's a bunch of approaches. I, I was very fortunate in that I had access to a wood mill, so I made a, a wooden greenhouse. Um, but since then, various approaches, I, there's a lot available online of, of used, uh, materials. You could, you can get on Craigslist, you can find, um, galvanized conduit, things like that. And you can get a, a conduit bender to, to make your own greenhouses relatively inexpensively these days. Um, but the way my first greenhouse here, I believe I found a, a old pile of used PVC at somebody's in somebody's yard, asked them if they were using it and made it a quick PVC hoop. And it was the following year where I had actually had time to fell a tree and mill it and, and build a greenhouse. Speaker 1 00:14:11 I like this idea of not only upcycling your materials in the short term, because that way you can feel a lot easier about, um, building a temporary greenhouse immediately. And then, and then as you're able to collect the higher quality, um, materials, do that the next season or, or further on, um, if you're, if you're gonna do something short term, um, it's great to be able to, to get things from, from neighbors or, or shared online so that you don't have to spend that money and, uh, you know, and also create new plastic, right? Speaker 2 00:14:44 Yeah. And absolutely. And maybe you don't need a greenhouse the first year. I mean, I did 'cause I was hiding plants, but, um, if you don't use a greenhouse, you start your plants a little bit later, it gives you extra time to prepare your, your outdoor garden. And, and then you plant that and, and you have a crop that you can use towards building a greenhouse the, the following year. I mean, uh, I, I, I can give this advice. It hasn't always been advice I've taken myself <laugh>. Um, but to, to bite off what you can realistically chew based on your, your budget and your, your time, et cetera. I mean, I, I have the bad habit of jumping out of the airplane and then imagining I can sew the parachute before I hit the ground <laugh>. But, um, I, I've, I can't say that it's always worked that well, Speaker 1 00:15:32 <laugh> Well, you know, that I think that is one of the challenges for those of us who are like, you know, optimistic, visionary type folks because, um, we, we we're always biting off more than we can chew <laugh>. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:15:44 Yeah. It, it all looks so good. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:15:47 So, so let's talk about the, the real star of the farm, your soil. So, mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, if I understand the, the story, um, when you got to the farm, it had not actually, I mean, it wasn't even really a farm. It was, it was a parcel and, and the, and the soil had not been cared for in a long time. Um, you know, most of us imagine that the soil in Humboldt County is like, you know, infused with magic and like good all by itself. Was, was your soil already good to go when you arrived? Or did you know immediately that you needed to do soil building? Speaker 2 00:16:20 Um, it's actually a combination because generally the, the soil in Humboldt County and around here, I is a very thin clay soil as, as far as the top soil goes. And, and here we have a vein of, of really quality soil in terms of, of the soil structure. Um, the, the place we are is relatively flat and, and it has a vein of alluvial soil where, where two creeks had come back and forth across and deposited some soil. So, so it has a, a slightly sandy loam strip through part of the, the flat area here. That being said, it was covered in brush and was very acidic, and, um, it, it needed a lot of work. Um, so the first order of business definitely was testing that and, uh, adjusting the, the pH to, to bring it back to, to neutral. Um, and then as we expanded the farm, we reached out into more of, of the clay pore soil areas of the farm and, and started working on those soils. Speaker 1 00:17:33 So as you, um, you know, once you got the pH back to neutral from all the, all the acidity Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, why don't you, uh, kind of illustrate for us a couple of the processes that you did to like build fertility into the soil? Um, because, you know, as we know, it takes more than just, um, you know, a good pH the, the soil we want it, um, uh, imbued with, with, with microbes and beneficial bacteria and fungi. And, and I'm sure that you were probably excited about that part of it. 'cause because I mean, it's my favorite part 'cause you get to do a whole bunch of really cool living projects, you know? Yeah. So, so why don't, why don't, why don't you just kind of like, uh, go through some of the, the projects like that, that you did, um, to just increase the, the life force in the soil? Speaker 2 00:18:22 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was relatively lucky in that generally, unless a soil is really bare, you, you have a lot of life force in it. We, we, we have a forest soil here, so it, it is infused with life. The, the, the challenge here in humble and in similar Mediterranean climates is that it gets so dry during the summer that it, it, it's kind of like the winter would be if you were in Michigan or something where the, the, the season that, that the life kind of gets put on hold in, in that most active layer of the soil here is in the summer because it dries out. Um, so a big part of that for me was developing the organic matter so that it could hold moisture and, and there could be life there throughout, throughout the season. So, yeah, a a big part of it was, was building a, a stable organic matter in the soil. Speaker 2 00:19:25 And, and stable organic matter is very different than act of breaking down organic matter, both of which you need the act of breaking down organic matter is the food for the biology in the soil, the stable organic matter. I kind of think of as the, um, the housing <laugh>. It, it's, it's the buffer, it's the well that, that you, your plants can draw from. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and the place, the, the pantry, if you will. So that is a relatively slow process. One of the early ways I started putting stable organic matter into the soil, and this is when I had a much smaller garden. The farm didn't come until, until later, was, was through biochar. I was doing a lot of, of burning here on the property and learning how to, a, as I did, um, fire safety work and thinning in the forest, learning how to make burn piles, um, in a way that preserved a lot of the charcoal, then soaking that in like a worm, casting tea, and then putting that in the soil. So then you have this, this repository, uh, of, uh, moisture holding and nutrient holding within the soil. And early on I was, um, managing the soil with, uh, a biointensive style rather than a no-till style. That's where you like double dig everything all the time, which was incredibly tiring. But it also really allowed me to, to build up organic matter very, very deep in the soil. Um, I hadn't heard of no-till yet. I was, I was really excited when I discovered that about a decade later, <laugh> Speaker 1 00:21:01 <laugh>, you're like, oh, I'm already doing that. I'm Speaker 2 00:21:03 Like, I, I'm, I, I don't have to dig everything every year. And, you know, at that point I was, I was digging with a shovel and a fork to be able to do the same kind of a thing of like keeping soil structure while aerating, um, and, and discovering techniques to be able to do that without as much work was, was mind blowing to me. Speaker 1 00:21:24 I didn't understand it when you first, uh, suggested that idea, now that I do, that must have been a really fabulous moment when you, when you read a, you know, a defense of not double digging and realizing that, that perhaps it was time for that to end all that. And that's particularly backbreaking work. You must have felt Oh, yeah. Felt like, oh, I'm free. You Speaker 2 00:21:47 Know? Yeah. Well, I, it, it was amazing. 'cause it, it kind of came with, as we expanded into being a larger farm, um, Taylor, my, my wife and I, as, as we expanded into a larger area here on the property, the, the first thing we did was like, we, well, we obviously can't double dig an acre, so we're gonna, we have a tiller for our tractor, we're gonna till, and it just felt so wrong. And then we tilled and we were basically gardening an acre. And, and we had this awareness like this, we can't garden this much. We have to learn how to farm and, and farming is a different thing than gardening. And, and how can we farm in a way that feels like we're taking care of the soil? And, and we discovered various literature about it and discovered techniques to do that and, and become efficient at the same time as, as becoming better stewards of the, the soil. Speaker 1 00:22:44 This, this idea that, that farming is different than gardening. That's a very provocative statement. My, my best understanding of what you're saying there would be that with, with gardening, you're doing things that can be inefficient because you're not scaled. But when you're scaled to a farm, you have to be far more efficient. Is that what you mean by that? Speaker 2 00:23:04 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, if you're farming, um, you know, unfortunately you're interacting with, with a, an economic reality where, um, you can't lose money the way you can having a hobby, you know? Yeah. You can have a hobby where you spend $10 to make a beautiful heirloom tomato for your kitchen. Um, that doesn't work if you're, if you're trying to, to make a living selling that tomato. So, um, that, that's kind of been the, the constant challenges. How, how do you scale in a way that you can provide food in a environmentally friendly way, in a way that leaves your land in a better state than you found it, and at the same time is economically viable. Um, and, and it is a kind of a constant push and pull and, and there's, there's no way to do it. Perfect. Uh, uh, we, we talk about being regenerative, but really when it comes to it, we're all of us striving towards this idea of being regenerative. Mm. And, and it, it's, it's not something that's easy. You, you can't, um, in, in permaculture, we talk about a closed loop system where, where the outputs of your farm become the inputs of your farm, and it's a self-sustaining ecosystem. Well, that, that's a lot harder when so much of the output of your farm is leaving your farm never to be returned. Hmm. Speaker 1 00:24:34 So, oh, so, so when you were, um, you were describing how, uh, you were, you were, um, double dig digging until you learned about no-till because, um, you know, while, while that's, while that's an, you know, an ancient process, it's, it's relatively new to trending again, I guess I'll say. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I can imagine that at the beginning also, you were probably doing things that, that we all know as regenerative farming, just because you had low resources. I I was talking with a guy, I never did get his name, but, um, at a, uh, at a golden tarp several years ago. And, uh, he said, he says, he says, oh, I, I've been regenerative farmer my whole life, but when I was young, we just called it being poor. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Yeah. And, and because like, he was focused on using the materials that are on the property, um, and, and because he, he, he couldn't afford, you know, the, the fertilizers that you'd get from town in the same way, I want to ask you, like, you know, you, you described how you wanted to both increase the microbe life, but then also increase the, you know, what we're gonna call housing or structure that, um, that protects and, and gives, um, a place for those microbes to, to, I, I wanna use the word procreate, but that's not scientifically accurate, but make more, incubate them. Speaker 1 00:25:55 Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so what, what were some of the natural inputs that you found, um, you know, on the parcel or nearby that you could wildcraft and put to work in your soil building it? Speaker 2 00:26:09 Well, early on in building the soil, I didn't really have the awareness of, of wildcrafting inputs. So I think that kind of the, the Juda KNF kind of input, um, awareness came, came to us maybe 10 years ago. Um, early on, I, I had a lot of wood, a lot of wood chip. Uh, I wasn't doing Hugo building with, with large wood, partly because I, I had really nice soil and I didn't feel like I needed to, to put wood in the, the lower profile of it to make that work. But what, what I did have is a lot of wood chips for doing mulching. Um, and although I didn't have animals myself early on, besides, um, chickens for eggs, and that manure went back onto the farm, um, I did have friends and neighbors who had cows and horses and, and goats, and was able to put a lot of organic matter in the form of manure and wood chips from, from the area onto the soil. Speaker 2 00:27:16 And I mean, that, that really is like, the input you want is, is organic matter, especially in a place like Humboldt. The flip side of, of what we were talking about earlier about the, the dry season being a time when, when microbes kind of go dormant, if, if the soil isn't kept moist and there's not good moisture holding capacity, the flip side of it is the wet season here is, is 80 plus inches of rain during, during the years. So if you don't hold those nutrients, somehow they, they wash out all, all of the soluble nutrients. So some of the biggest issues for us over the years have always been like, how do we create nitrogen? How do we hold nitrogen? How do we find sulfur? How do we hold sulfur? Um, uh, and some of, of the micronutrients and minerals things that wash out of the soil here just aren't there unless you find ways to put them in and to hold them. Speaker 2 00:28:15 Um, and the, the over the course of gardening here, the single largest way that we've found to build soil is, is through wintertime cover cropping. And, and it's, it, it just is incredible how much soil you can build, because the winter here when we're not able to grow crops is, is four to six months of the year. So you, you're actually growing a full crop during that wintertime season, entirely just to put back into the soil. And once you start doing the, the no-till version of it, you're, you're not just putting it back on the top, but all of the roots of those cover crops get to stay where they are in the pathways, in the soil that they've opened up. That becomes a porous structure of the soil. And the exodus of the roots help create kind of a, a glue that glues the soil structure together and, and then makes a, a porous environment. So if you take a cover crop and you lay the, the, the green matter on the top and let that decompose naturally into the top of the soil, and that the roots decompose down in the subsoil and in, in, in the soil deeper where they are, you really quickly build organic matter deep into the soil. That was Speaker 1 00:29:36 A beautiful explanation, Daniel. That was top notch Speaker 2 00:29:38 <laugh>. Yeah. I mean, like the, the engine for all of it, right? The engine for organic matter is photosynthesis. And, and to, you need to take advantage of the photosynthesis potential on your garden soil all the time. And it's either you're, you're taking photosynthesis from another area in the form of straw or hay or wood chips, or even animal manure from animals that have eaten that and bringing it to you or your, or, and really not, or you are creating photosynthesis in place. And that the, the lovely thing about that is it's so simple. It's there. You're not wheelbarrowing it, you're not moving it around, and you can have it, um, be nitrogen fixing so that it, it also creates, um, creates fertility. Speaker 1 00:30:27 That's great. So, um, I wanna hit one more topic, or it's actually the same topic, but I wanna ask you one more question before we go to the first commercial, which is, um, you know, the, what the specific over winter cover crop is going to be, um, is gonna be different depending on what part of the country that we live in. So, so everybody's gonna have their own local plant that tends to work best for them. What I'm curious to hear you speak to is, is number one, um, did you choose one cover crop and go solely with that ever? Or did you pick a few different cover crops and, and plant them together for variety? And two, how does that crop cover crop fit into like, all of the plants that are on your property? So on your property, I'm assuming that you're gonna have these, these seasonal cover crops, but then also you're gonna have, um, uh, uh, the food that you're grow growing for market, and then you've got the cannabis probably in the greenhouse and outside of it, and then you've got your ornamentals that you just grow around your property for fun. Speaker 1 00:31:30 We, we all know as regenerative farmers that these plants are all interacting with each other at a biological level, even, even if they're not planted right next to each other. I'd like to kind of like, hear, hear about like, what was the melody for the different types of plants that you chose for the farm, um, as you, as you settled in and figured out what was gonna be best for the farm? Mm-Hmm. Speaker 2 00:31:51 <affirmative>, um, I mean, we have a, a number of different management strategies that we have developed and are developing and will, will change over time for, for different goals. Um, how we manage beds for cannabis is very different than how we manage beds for lettuce. And, you know, the big factors are the crop that you're growing. Is it a quick turnaround? Does it suffer from, from competition from weeds, or does it do fine with that? And, and again, like we you just said, how does it interact with the plants around it? So, um, in our perennial gardens, we just do a lot of deep mulch. We have a variety of plants, both for, for beauty that we like, for medicinal use for ourselves, for beneficial insects. Um, and then the, the cannabis is kind of somewhere in between a perennial garden and an annual garden. Speaker 2 00:32:47 Cannabis is such a long lived annual, it, it really plays well with perennials. Um, and, and the way we manage that tends to be, uh, an in between where we, we grow, grow a cover crop, but we manage it through crimping and mulch. And, and the edge of the cannabis beds has, has a, a perennial garden of sorts. And, and that garden tends to entirely be beneficials, um, for insects that are predator insects for cannabis or trap crops or, or things like that. Um, and then the annual vegetable production de, depending on the crop that's gonna be in an area, gets a different management technique and, and needs longer to transition from the wintertime cover crop to being a, a very clean blank bear slate bed that we could use cedars or, or transplanting tools on. And what I've really found that I like in terms of cover crop is doing a cover crop mix, and you can find a mix that that works for your environment and works for your needs. Speaker 2 00:33:50 But, but we actually buy a pre-mixed cover crop that is a combination of, of, uh, fava, uh, vetch peas and oats. And, and what I like about that is, is there's an inherent intelligence to, to plants and their interaction with their environment and, and, um, you find different expressions of what germinates and what thrives in different beds. In beds that tend to be low in nitrogen after a year of growing the crop you've had on it. The, the legumes in that cover crop mix really thrive in beds that have a lot of nitrogen. The, the grass really thrives and it's able to grow a lot before the heaviness of the winter rains comes and, and hold a lot of that nutrient in, its in its structure versus the legumes, which are building, building nutrient through, um, its relationship in, in its roots. Um, so, so having a mix of cover crop really helps it thrive in whichever environment you put it in. Speaker 2 00:34:59 And that changes year to year. It's not something I've been able to wrap my head around predicting what will do well in which area at which time. Um, the one aspect we're starting to discover in, in the cannabis zones, especially where we use crimping as a technique to integrate cover crop, is that, that there's a benefit if you're, if you're using crimping as a technique to having cover crops that come into flour at the same time. 'cause um, crimping as a technique really depends on timing. If, if you crimp while a plant is in its most vigorous growth time, it's going to grow right through that push its way through the mulch you put on top of it and continue growing. Versus if you cover crop, um, right when a plant's putting all of its energy into flowering but hasn't produced seeds yet, it, it tends to actually be killed by the crimping technique and start its decomposition process. Speaker 2 00:36:00 And so the cover crop mix we've been using, which we've still used this season, the, the oats flour at a later time, then, then the vetch and the, um, the fava beans, so the oats continue to grow. Or if I were to wait for the oats to flower, the, the fava and the vetch will have already seeded, and that could be a benefit. And, and I know farmers who are effectively using already seeded cover crop and dry farming somewhat. So they, if, if you are aren't overhead watering, say if you have your irrigation under where you crimp your cover crop so that after you do your cover crop, it, it, it kind of dries out and becomes mulch, you can have a fully seeded cover crop, let it dry out and become mulch, your irrigation lines are under it. And then when you get fall rains, it causes that to germinate again and you're already planted in cover crop. Ooh, Speaker 1 00:37:01 That's nice. Speaker 2 00:37:03 Yeah. And that's, that's theoretical. I've heard, um, some, some really amazing farmers talk about that. Um, but I have not tried that. You really Speaker 1 00:37:11 Gotta nail that. You really gotta nail that timing. Speaker 2 00:37:13 You just gotta nail that, you know? Yeah. And, and, and getting it to rese and, and all of that. It's something I'd love to experiment with at some point, but, but haven't gotten to yet as it is. I'm now looking for an earlier flowering, um, grain grass that I can mix in with, with my, my batch and, and my fava beans to have them at least come into fruition at the same time for effective crimping. Speaker 1 00:37:39 You know, one thing that is underlying this, this, um, this philosophy that you just shared is that when you're, when you're just establishing your farm is regenerative, whether or not you just got the parcel, or if you're switching from petroleum farming to regenerative farming, um, sometimes the first few years as you're getting your legs under you, it's, it's okay to use the same kind of like off the shelf, like, uh, cover crop mixes and other, other things where, where you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Like you don't Oh, Speaker 2 00:38:10 Absolutely. Speaker 1 00:38:10 You don't have to be inventing all new farming techniques your first couple years. There's reasons why, um, these, some of these seed mixes and, and other tools are, you know, are things that everybody uses. And, and so just, you know, go ahead and follow the crowd on some of this stuff until you get established and you can really, uh, fine tune it for your own particular parcel. Speaker 2 00:38:33 Well, and it, and it goes back to that biting off more than you can chew. I mean, you're right, I, I often still use cover crop mixes because I don't have the time to wrap my head around every aspect of the farm. And farmers are doing it, especially now. There's so many small farms out there, there, there is so much thought being put into this. And therefore there are a lot of products out there that are made by farmers with the thought of, of helping farmers. And especially like in the tool realm and, and things like that, there's a lot available. You don't need to do it all yourself. You couldn't, even if you tried. And, and part of learning to farm was learning to focus on what we're good at and, and to let other people do what they're good at and be collaborative about it. Speaker 1 00:39:22 Right on. That's good. Those are good words of advice. So. Alright, so let's take a short break and be right back. You're listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Regenerative farmer Daniel Stein. And, you know, without these advertisers shaping fire would not happen. So please support them and let them know you heard them on shaping fire Speaker 1 00:39:41 Revenue is tight for cannabis businesses right now. There is no question about it. And when revenue tightens, businesses need to spend smarter on advertising, instead of throwing obscene money at hanging your company's logo from the rafters at your next convention, perhaps consider placing commercials on shaping fire. And if you are a very small business, there is simply no better bang for your buck than commercials on shaping fire, especially if your products are for regeneratively minded cultivators. Advertising on this show allows us time to talk about your product, service, or brand in a way that really lets people know what sets your company apart from the others. Bold people who own companies know that getting into relationship with their customers is essential. That is what we offer. We will explain your service or product, what sets it apart as desirable, and help our audience get in contact with you. Speaker 1 00:40:34 It's pretty simple really. Advertising does not have to be all whizzbang smoke and mirrors nowadays. I find that people prefer just to be spoken to calmly, accurately, and with good intentions. If you wanna make your own commercial spot, you can do that too with a commercial on shaping fire. You'll reach your customers in the privacy of their headphones right now and we'll continue to reach new listeners as they explore the shaping Fire Back catalog of episodes again and again for years, a spot on shaping fire costs less than a postcard per person. And the shaping fire audience is full of smart cannabis enthusiasts, cultivators, and entrepreneurs who are always curious to learn. And right now in the new year, we are booking the few open spots we have for the rest of 2024. I'd love for you to be one of our new advertisers, do yourself a solid and contact us today for rates on podcast and Instagram advertising. Email [email protected] to find out more Speaker 1 00:41:37 Fish poop. Brand fertilizer is an all natural fish poop concentrate with nothing added. Real fish poop is extraordinarily complex. Not only are you adding the nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium, your plants need to build mass transport nutrients in flavor. 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Fish poop, brand fish poop, however, generates their own fish waste as a byproduct of their organic aquaponics cannabis farm where they raise ornamental, koi and tilapia, you are even invited to tour their farm in person or on their YouTube channel to look for yourself. This sort of transparency is wildly rare in the fertilizer market. The folks behind fish poop are also lifelong medical cannabis producers who have deep connections in the community donate more product than they sell and support cannabis prisoner, veteran and patient collectives and charities. To get your bottle of pure fish poop, go to fish poop.com and to see their entire line of cannabis products go to ounce of hope.com. That's fish poop, brand Fish poop. Speaker 1 00:43:30 This message is for folks who grow cannabis. I'm talking to home growers, patients and commercial growers too. I'm probably talking to you when you plan out your next growing cycle. Be sure to check out Humboldt CSI [email protected]. Caleb and Spec and his family have lived in Humboldt County for over a hundred years. For the last 40 years, three generations of his family have cultivated extraordinary sense EA cannabis in Humboldt, Mendocino, and Trinity Counties. Because of his lineage and the hard earned experience that comes from growing up, smoking and sifting large populations of cannabis plants in Northern California. The seeds you'll cop from CSI will be winning genetics based on longtime heavy hitters and updated and sifted to bring out new and exotic traits and better yields. Go ahead and ask around Caleb, also known as Inspect and Pirates of the Emerald Triangle, is a breeder's breeder. Speaker 1 00:44:25 He reaches way back and works with significant strains, recreating them in new and interesting ways that you'll love as a toker and a grower, as well as offering you some surprises that will delight serious seed traders and cultivators Humboldt CSI goes as further step and selfs all these chemovars. So you know, all the seeds will be female. These are not experimental femini seeds. Humboldt CSI releases some of the best female seeds available anywhere and it will show in your garden. Folks grew quite a bit of CSI Humbold Gen X last year here on vash on Island, and everyone was pleased. The patients had beautiful female plants and didn't have to call half of their garden as males. The folks growing for the fun of getting high, grew colorful flowers with exceptional bag appeal and great highs and breeders had seven out of seven females in a pack, which gave them a lot of phenotypic choices. Speaker 1 00:45:19 Take a moment right now and visit humboldt csi.com. You'll find an UpToDate menu of both feminized and regular lines along with photos and descriptions. That's humboldt csi.com. Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I'm your host Shang Los, and my guest today is Regenerative Farmer Daniel Stein. So before the break we were talking about the, the initial things to do, or at least considerations as you are, uh, setting up your farm to become regenerative, whether or not whether you are, uh, post petroleum or if it's just your first time on the property. Now, one of the things that Daniel hit on was that, um, you know, if you're building up all this soil, you don't want it all to get washed away. And so that's what we're gonna start with, Daniel. You know, water retention is really important, you know, across the country, but especially where you live because you, like I we have this, this drought portion of the summer and um, and there's lots of, there's lots of laws rurally about what you can and can't do with water. Speaker 1 00:46:25 And if you find yourself without water and you're far out, like you are off grid, it's not like you can just turn on the faucet and then suddenly there it is. Absolutely. And and you also mentioned that, um, you know, not only do you want to retain the water, but you also need to control the flow of water so that the water doesn't take away all the nutrients that you're putting in all this effort building into the soil. So I'd like you to talk through, um, yeah. Let's, you know for certain, use your property as example, but I'd like you to talk about it more theoretically. So it, so it applies to many people's farms. Talk about water retention, meaning how, how you can sequester the water on your property, uh, strategies to do that so the water stays. And then second, how you control the flow so that it doesn't wash all the good hard work you've done away. Speaker 2 00:47:18 Yeah, well there there's a number of strategies and it really depends on, on your individual situation needs and, and what you're going for for your farm. I mean, the answer to so many of, of the issues is organic matter. Organic matter is how you can hold water like a sponge. It's how you can hold nutrients, it's how you can, you can buffer high rainfall, high water events. Um, it it's, it's the answer to so much when it comes to, to farming. Um, and then in, in terms of, of water flow, if you're try, if your site doesn't get enough water retention throughout the season, the main thing you wanna do is, is get more water to it. Speaker 2 00:48:11 And, and so doing things like swales where, where you slow down the water coming across your property and get it to go into, into your system, help that. And that's in my environment, that's not something I've ever really had to do with 80 inches of rain, everything that can get saturated gets saturated without the help of bringing more water into it. And as a matter of fact, doing swales is, is something you have to be careful about because if you super saturate areas you could deal with with landslides if it's in the wrong, wrong kind of an area. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, we do use some of those techniques less about retaining water and more about slowing water down in areas that we have plantings that can uptake some of those nutrients that that would flow out with water. Um, so low on our property, we have some swales that are, are planted in, in comfort and other things that are deep rooted so it can slow any water down and, and we can hopefully remove a lot of the nutrients that would be flowing out with that water and turn them back into plant material that we can harvest and bring up to, to the top of the system again. Speaker 2 00:49:17 Uh, but it definitely is organic matter. Organic matter is the sponge. It, it reduces water speed flowing through sandy soil. It increases the drainage capacity of clay soil. It, it brings everything into balance. Speaker 1 00:49:38 I believe this next question you've just answered, and it's gonna be organic material, but I'm gonna ask it anyway because a lot of people run into it, you know, a lot of parts of the country and, and it's probably even gonna become more common to have a drought period during the summer. And when that happens, you know, the, the top soil gets, um, you know, dusty and, and, and many places. It gets hydrophobic so that when the rain does start, um, it doesn't immediately go into the, the top soil and it and it runs. And, and so people really rely on, on these, uh, permaculture solutions like swales, um, mm-hmm. <affirmative> to, to guide it and to, and to also slow it down. Do you find, like, the question is what do you, what strategy do you most like to, uh, fight the likelihood of, um, hydrophobic soil so that when the rains first start for the year, um, you don't lose a lot of important soil and soil chemistry before the soil opens up? Speaker 2 00:50:43 Well, mulch being kind of the best when it, when it's something that you can work with. Like if, if you are in a cropping system where you can do a heavy mulch, if you can afford to either bring a quality straw on or use wood chips for mulch that will break up the water, it'll slow it down. Um, that works for much of our farm for a lot of the, the vegetable side of it. You know, we, you can't mulch around radishes that are in the ground for four weeks and then pull a mulch and replant each time. So we do have a lot of beds that that end up being relatively bare soil, even though there, there's cover crop planted in them that will sprout quickly after the first rains. Uh, one of the main things we do for that, where we don't, we don't have control of it through something on the surface of the soil, is making sure that all of our beds are on contour. Speaker 2 00:51:40 So in a way they act like swales. Hmm. So our beds are on contour and even though we don't have much of a slope, um, the, they're on contour and they're slightly raised above the pathways so that if we do lose any soil from erosion, it goes into the pathways. And then every couple years we, we come through and we put the, the, the soil and, and broken down wood chip mulch and various things that have built up in the pathways back on top of the beds. And it acts like a, a another kind of a boost. It's, it, it's like putting compost on top of the beds. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Speaker 1 00:52:18 So earlier you mentioned, uh, trap plants and um, uh, in addition to that, and, and, and perhaps you can explain the kind of trap plants that you like. Um, how do you manage pests on your property? Speaker 2 00:52:30 Um, well, different pests, different ways. I mean, there, there are pests that we can manage effectively through encouraging the natural balance. And then there are pests that come out of balance, um, pests that we can deal with effectively through the natural balance. We, we encourage, uh, plants that are, are, uh, an ecosystem and environment that encourages natural predators. And often for us, those are our humbles things like Queen Ann's lace, sweetly, um, various flowers. Um, one thing that I i a lot of people don't, don't realize is that the, the stage of, of much of many of the predators that attack pests, say if it's aphids or thrips or something like that, a lot of the predators that attack those pests are the larval stage. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of, of the predator. And that the adult stage that you need to have a round in order to lay the eggs in the right place to have the larval stage eat nectar and pollen from specific plants. Speaker 2 00:53:41 So, so when you talk about beneficial plants, it's all often you're providing the food and the environment for the adult stage of, of a beneficial insect that will then go lay its eggs in aphid bodies or lay larvae that then crawl around on the plant and, and eat rips. Um, things like that. Um, the, the trap crops are, are interesting 'cause the idea of a trap crop is having, having a plant that your pests desire more than your cash crop. And one of the main ones we use in our cannabis is, is actually catnip works really well for mites seem to prefer catnip over cannabis any day of the week. And, and it provides an environment. So if we do have something outta balance, we can, if we're using beneficial insects, we can release the beneficial insects into the trap crop where there's a, a large population of, of the pest and they can eat the pest, they can breed and then they can branch out from there. Where if, if you're, if you're buying a, an expensive beneficial insect and putting it on say a cannabis plant that has a, a, a smattering of a pest, not, not to an epidemic proportion, you're wasting a lot of, a lot of that insect, they'll, they'll mostly die off of starvation if they can't find their food. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, Speaker 1 00:55:10 I, I like this idea. And, uh, uh, that is common in, in regenerative agriculture that, that these pests are usually coming because the garden is, uh, out of balance and it's, it swings one way or another too dry, too wet too, too whatever. And, and, and when it's out of balance, it creates opportunities for certain pests to expand and then you've got a problem. And, um, I think it's really fun because when I tour regenerative farms, there's, there's just such a diversity of plants, right? It's, it's, it's, it's the complete opposite of a monoculture. Yeah, of course we've got, we've got these, you know, fields of cannabis, but then you've got, you know, you know, all these smaller plants and then, and then cover crops and then, uh, ornamentals that are are just pretty for the farm and, and they're all growing. And then in the summer, which is normally when I do my doers, they're all flowering and gorgeous and they smell good. Speaker 1 00:56:07 And you can, you can feel the balance of the farm. And, and I, I think that the, the number one solution for pests on regenerative farms is just to grow a lot and a lot of variety because I certainly have got great, uh, results from adding beneficial insects as well. But, but you're, you're speaking the truth man. When you, when you say that if, if you, if your, if your garden isn't already out of balance, there might not be enough food for the beneficial insects to keep them going. And so it's really going to be better for you to, instead of of spot trying to fix a problem, really focus on the biological diversity and the flowering and plant diversity so that, um, the plants that you want, they choose to come to your farm and they choose to do their lifecycle on your farm. And then you can save some money on the biologicals like beneficial insects, um, for when you actually have a problem and, and you need some first aid. Speaker 2 00:57:13 Yeah. And Abso absolutely, and even even there within that, our farm isn't an island. It, it is in a greater environment. And so as we've seen more proliferation of large cannabis farms as we've had to move towards using clones, things like that, more, more pests become an issue. Like the, the hemp aphid did not exist for us in any way many years ago and never would have if we didn't have some large cannabis farms in our area that proliferated them. Um, and that, that particular pest poses a unique problem because our, the way our environment will is bringing that pest into balance, is through a number of predators, but one of the primary ones is the surf and fly, uh, or hover fly. And they're those little things that kind of look like bees, but they're shaped like flies if you've ever seen them. For sure. Speaker 2 00:58:16 And, and they're wonderful. The, the issue is that the hemp aphid comes late in the season during budding often or early budding, and the surfing flies follow them. And the way the surf fly, um, feeds on, on the aphid is by, by laying eggs, which hatch and develop into larva, which then crawl around and or squirm around. They kind of look like maggots and, and eat aphids and aphid eggs. Now, the issue with that is it is bringing it into balance, and it is getting rid of the aphids. Oftentimes, there's no aphids left in on, on plants where, where the circuit flies have worked, but they also leave eggs and larva inside of buds. So the, the most extreme version of this is, um, a number of years ago, um, I knew of a jar brand and, and the, the surf and fly larvae will remain dormant at certain temperatures, but then develop at room temperature over the course of two weeks. So there was a, a jarred brand that, that had organic regenerative cannabis in it. And because it was organic and there were aphids, there was surf and fly larvae that had, once it was put on the shelf in the dispensary at room temperature had hatched and become flies inside of the jar. Speaker 1 00:59:49 Oh, what a, what a Speaker 2 00:59:50 Terrible, which really makes for bad branding Speaker 1 00:59:52 <laugh>. Yeah. That's a really bad brand experience for sure. Speaker 2 00:59:55 So that, that particular balance does not work for us. We can't encourage surfing flies as the answer for aphids, even though our natural environment wants that to be the balance. Um, so we do have to work with, with beneficial insects to control the aphids early on so that we don't have what is essentially a beneficial insect, um, hurt the, the quality of our flower down the line. Speaker 1 01:00:25 Wow. That's really thoughtful. Um, not only so, so the, so the aphids are the original pest and the surf it flies are the original beneficial, but due to the nature of the surf, it flies the surf. It flies, actually becomes a pest because of their larva in the flowers. And so actually you need a third party outside beneficial insect. Yeah. That will take out the aphids before the aphids get so significant that they track the surf. It flies. Speaker 2 01:00:53 Yeah. And so <laugh>, we do introduce green la swing, which are natural here, but never seem to build up enough of a natural population fast enough. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to deal with, uh, the, the hemp aphid, which doesn't exist here naturally along with cannabis, which also doesn't exist here naturally. So it makes sense that, that it, it is sometimes hard for the natural system to come into balance with these essentially exotic plants. Um, they, the, the lar the lace wing isn't able to build up a population quick enough to deal with just the incredibly rapid rate at which, um, hemp aphids proliferate. Speaker 1 01:01:36 Wow. So, um, Speaker 2 01:01:38 And hemp aphids do, like, there's, it comes to variety there. There's, there's strains that they seem to like, no matter how healthy they are, that there's something about them they like, and there's, they don't seem to like, and, and not all, oftentimes it is there is an imbalance in the farm that causes a pest to, to like something. But there, there's oftentimes pests that, that do really well, uh, um, attacking plants. And, and it might not be that the plant's outta balance, it might just be that that plant has not developed with a resistance to that particular pest because they known each other long enough. Mm. Speaker 1 01:02:19 Ah, I mean, that makes sense, especially with, you know, some of these, uh, the, the, the newer strains that, that, that are like a far cry away from, uh, land races sometimes. Sometimes they just, yeah, absolutely. So they just don't have that depth of, uh, of genetic protection. Speaker 2 01:02:34 No. They've, they've never seen, uh, the sun even <laugh> even much Speaker 1 01:02:38 Less that they've never been outside of indoor <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so let, let's, let's, uh, shift gears to, um, uh, to animals on the property. Um, so far, uh, you have mentioned, uh, chickens as far as animal husbandry goes and, and using, uh, manure from neighbors farms, but that, that was way in the beginning. So, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, so now that you are more established, perhaps you have other animals too, but, but whether, whether the animals are yours or whether you're bringing them from elsewhere, um, speak a little bit, if you would, to, um, how, uh, animal, um, inputs, if you will, uh, whether it's their manure or their, their, their body, uh, how, how those are being incorporated into the cycle on your farm. Speaker 2 01:03:24 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, number one, it's the, the relationship with humans and animals and farming, it, it all kind of evolved together. Right. And the, the way I see it is animals have developed incredible microbiomes, um, to be able to digest and process raw rough food and come out with a fertilizer basically. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so goats are the, the primary large animal we have on our farm. And our goats free roam, a large area a around our homestead, they're not fenced in. Our homestead is fenced. And, and the goats have everything else. Um, and what they do is, is they gather food. They, they go around, they, they eat a, a wide variety of food. They, they come back to the barn three times a day and where they pee and they poop, and, and they, they make a, a incredible compost that we can gather and, and add to our intentional compost piles every year. And it's another way besides wood chips, which are very slow, slow to degrade and, and don't have a lot of nutritive value in terms of, um, in terms of macronutrients. Um, it's another way for us to, to gather biomass from our surrounding area, bring it here onto our farm, and process it into kind of a, a super fertilizer, um, and, and an inoculant of microbiology. Speaker 1 01:05:00 I wanna, I wanna poke at that bit. Did you, did you really mean to suggest that the, that the goats come back to the farm to poop and that they, they don't just drop it wherever they are walking around? No, Speaker 2 01:05:11 They, they absolutely drop it wherever they are walking around. Oh, okay. No, no. So they, they come back to the barn. They're, they're always pooping Speaker 1 01:05:19 <laugh>. Right on. Okay. I was gonna say, I was gonna say, Speaker 2 01:05:21 Does this, a lot of their poop ends up at the barn. What they do is they'll roam around and then they'll come back and loaf and hang out at the barn and drink water. And during that time, they're continuing to poop. Alright, great. Speaker 1 01:05:32 The way I heard I go, like, do they come back to the barn is a toilet? I've never heard that about goats, but, but now I Speaker 2 01:05:37 Understand. We're, we're really developing our, our animal training. Like, bring don't pee. Not yet. Speaker 1 01:05:41 No. Yeah. Hold it till you get back to the barn. Alright. I, I understand more clearly now. They're just, they're just always pooping and, and, and they naturally come back to the barn for shelter and water and they drop a load there too. Yeah, Speaker 2 01:05:52 Exactly. Speaker 1 01:05:53 Very good. Very good. Um, so do, when, when you bring in manure from another property Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, um, how suspicious are you of that manure? Like, like how much do you wanna know about those animals before you're willing to bring the manure onto your property? Speaker 2 01:06:12 You, you wanna know a lot. Um, you know, early on I brought horse manure on and, and there's a couple aspects with horse manure. Horses are basically pets to a lot of people. Most people worm their horses continuously. And, um, so wormer horses things kind of pass straight through horses. So if somebody is giving their horse horse wormer, you basically have wormer in the manure. Yeah. So you want to ask those kinds of questions. Are your horses being fed any medication? Another aspect with horse manure is because things pass through horses, um, something about the way they process you, they, they don't process a lot of magnesium. So horse manure is high in magnesium that will build up over time if that's the one manure you're using, and you'll get an imbalance between the calcium and magnesium in your soil. Um, right now, one of our primary manure inputs is from an organic dairy where we, we get probably 40 to 50 yards of, of dairy manure solids Wow. Speaker 2 01:07:16 From an organic dairy, which is wonderful. It it's great material. Um, one of the challenges with that is that they, they dust the feeding stalls in the barn. So, so the way that works is, is the, the cows get milked, they go to, to a large barn with feeding stalls, and then they go back out to pasture. And while they poop in the feeding stalls, that gets washed in into, uh, a trough where the solids are separated from the liquids. We get the solids, the liquids get watered back out onto pasture, but they dust down those feeding stalls with wood ash. So now that we've been using that manure for a while, we're starting to see a, an intense buildup of potassium salts from the wood ash. And so we're having to manage this, this great, um, biomass that we're able to get at, at a good price, um, delivered to us with dealing with potassium toxicity as, as a potential outcome of that. If we don't manage it properly. Speaker 1 01:08:19 What does management of that look like? That's a pretty exotic concern for me. Speaker 2 01:08:23 Um, it's actually surprisingly common with a lot of, of heavy compost applications and especially manure applications. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but the, the way it works for us is we just make sure we age the compost really well. And we don't add potassium in any other facets. It's like we used to add potassium in our amendments to our farm, and we just don't do that anymore. We make sure that doesn't happen. And if we see signs, um, I believe one of the, one of the aspects of potassium toxicity is a, a reduced uptake of manganese, I believe it is. And a reduced uptake of manganese during the first few weeks of, of a flower cycle on cannabis could cause really small buds, especially at the top. So when you see like larger buds lower down on your flowering stock, and as it comes towards what should be the nice top cola on a stock, it kind of flattens out and, and stops developing into a larger bud that could often be, be a manganese toxic, uh, a lack of manganese, which either could be a potassium toxicity, it also could be the manganese uptake didn't happen because the temperatures were too low for the uptake for that particular strain during its first few weeks of flowering. Speaker 2 01:09:45 A few things like that. But, but it's like paying close attention to, to what we're seeing on, on the, the growing end of it and seeing if we're seeing those effects. Speaker 1 01:09:57 Right on. So we've been, we've been talking a lot about specifics. I wanna, I wanna pull back our focus for a minute. Um, and, and kind of give you an opportunity maybe for a little bit of storytelling, because if we go back to, you know, where we are now in talking about your, about your farm and using it as a, as an example farm. Um, you've got very, uh, sophisticated and, and experienced rich solutions, whereas at the beginning of the show, we were talking about your very young and immature farm when and when you had no money and, and like doing the best you can with what you've got. And so we know that over the last 25 ish years, your, your experience has been increasing and the farm's depth has been increasing. And which sets us up for this question. I'm curious if there were, you know, were there, uh, any milestones that you experienced which told you that you were having a really positive impact on the biological diversity of the farm and that things were getting better, like in the soil and in the, I don't know, the biosphere of, of, of your farm when, uh, you know, signs that when you saw it, you just like kind of stopped and you're like, oh man, we're we're doing it, we're doing it <laugh>. Speaker 2 01:11:13 I i there's a lot of that. I mean, I, I kind of walk around every day and feel that like, oh my God, this is, this is amazing. It's, it's happening, it's working. Um, I remember specifically, uh, the, the first or, uh, regenerative cannabis conference. I don't, I don't know if you were there. Speaker 1 01:11:32 I wasn't at the first one. No. Speaker 2 01:11:33 It, it was, it was right here in my neighborhood. It was at, at, uh, beginnings in, in Priceland here. And it was relatively small and I, uh, I had a few people who were there, A few of the presenters come up and do a quick little of the farm. Um, and, and one of the presenters was, uh, a mycologist who focused on Michal mycology. And he said, oh, this is cool. You've been growing cannabis in the same area for, for 10 years or whatever it was at that point, probably more than that. Can I take a sample and and do a psychological study of it? I was like, that, that sounds amazing. That Speaker 1 01:12:12 Sounds bads. Yeah. Speaker 2 01:12:13 And so he got back to me about a week later and he said the, um, the spores of the specific, um, michal fungi that have relationship with cannabis are dense enough in this soil that you could cut it by 10 parts and sell it as an inoculate. Speaker 1 01:12:37 Wow. That must afford you. That was like, I Speaker 2 01:12:41 Was just like, what the heck? Well, I, I didn't know. And I was like, well, does that mean we're doing a good job? Or that commercial inoculates are ridiculous <laugh>? And he said a little of both. Right. Speaker 1 01:12:53 Yeah. That, that is fantastic. And to, to know that, um, that, you know, it was your, your soil was that fungal rich. Um, it really gives you, um, an understanding that you've got like room for error, right. Because you, you're not barely getting by your, your soil is actually bursting. Speaker 2 01:13:12 Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and you know, I, some of it, I, I think you just end up with a lot of happy accidents. You know? Um, like I, I have thought a lot, you know, while I'm on my way to bed and don't have a piece of paper or things like that of, you know, the idea of of, of michal relationships. Now there's a difference between, um, spores and active michal that, that are in the soil. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And there's active mycorrhiza on the cannabis ra roots. What, what makes mycorrhiza go into kind of a suspended state is not having those relationships. So if you go into a wintertime where your soils bear, the mycorrhiza that's alive no longer is, there's spores Maybe maybe it'll build up again, but it'll take longer to build up again in the spring. And I've, I've been curious, and I actually haven't done the, the research or looked at it, it's like, is there specific cover crops that, that have the same michal relationships with the same species as does a cannabis crop or a crop you're growing for that summer so that you can encourage a continuity of those species? Speaker 2 01:14:28 Because, you know, we see a lot of, um, you know, if you, if you go on Instagram and you look at people's accounts, everybody, um, posts these pictures of incredible mycelium in their soil. And, and a lot of those species are wonderful. They're good to have in your soil. They're the species that break down, um, woody material or unbroken down organic matter and, and provide nutrients from it. But then the specific fungal mats, the specific michal relationships that, that directly benefit the cannabis, um, in a more direct relationship way, how do we keep those alive? How do we proliferate those and, and are there cover crops or, or perennial plantings that share enough of the same species to be able to be the, the kind of safe space for, for those living species to, to over winter? Speaker 1 01:15:21 Hmm. Yeah. 'cause you don't, you don't want the, the, the really beneficial ones for can cannabis like intercedes to suddenly be outcompeted by like, um, wood digesters, uh, uh, only you Speaker 2 01:15:32 Know. Exactly. And and that's mostly what you see, like, no, no shade on anyone. I, I love posting pictures of, of all my, you know, michal mats when I find them, but almost always it's wood digesters. Yeah. Whether it's, you know, wine caps or, or the safaria kind of mushrooms. Um, that that's what you see a lot because there, there, the way we're gardening the way we're, we're doing things, whether it's through Hugo beds or through a lot of, uh, of addition of carbon in the form of mulch really favors the wood digesters. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:16:06 Right on. Alright, so let's go ahead and take our second, uh, short break. We'll be right back. You are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is regenerative farmer Daniel Stein. Speaker 1 01:16:18 You've heard me talk about the award-winning cannabis seeds that come from the analytical breeding program of Seth and Eric Crawford, who founded Oregon CBD Seeds. In fact, Seth was a guest on shaping fire in 2020 to talk about Triplo genetics. Seth and Eric are now releasing high THC Seeds for Home Growers and farms as grow the revolution [email protected]. 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These seeds are nearly homogenous and the plants should all grow the same. There is only one phenotype in every pack available as Diploids and Triploids. Seth and Eric's company is still family owned, patient and employee centric, and partially powered by their two acres of solar panels. Everyone can purchase these seeds in the entire catalog of Oregon CBD [email protected]. Go to gtr seeds.com today and choose something revolutionary for your next indoor or outdoor run. Speaker 1 01:18:24 After you've caught up on the latest shaping fire episodes, do you sometimes wish there was more cannabis education available to learn? Well, we got you. Shaping Fire has a fabulous YouTube channel with content not found on the podcast. When I attend conventions to speak or moderate panels, I always record them and bring the content home for you to watch. The Shingo Los YouTube channel has world class speakers, including Zoe Sigmund's lecture, understanding Your Endocannabinoid System, Kevin Jori of Wonderland Nursery, talking about breeding cannabis for the best terpene profile. Frenchy Cannolis Lost Art of the Hasian presentation. Nicholas Mahmud on Regenerative and Polyculture cannabis growing Dr. Sunil Agrawal on the history of cannabis medicine around the world. Eric Roski and Josh Rutherford on Solventless Extraction and Jeff Lowenfels on the Soil Food Web. There are several presentations from Dr. Ethan Russo on terpenes and the endocannabinoid system too. While there, be sure to check out the three 10 Part Shaping Fire Session series one with Kevin Jori, one with Dr. Ethan Russo and one with Jeff Lowenfels. And even my own presentations on how to approach finding your dream job in cannabis and why we choose cannabis business, even though the risks are so high as of today, there's over 200 videos that you can check out for free. So go to youtube.com/shang los or click on the link in the newsletter. Speaker 1 01:19:43 One of the challenges with buying auto flower seeds is that often you'll have as many different FENOs as you'll have seeds in a pack that can be fun, sure. But so many varieties in one pack is a sign of an immature seed line that hasn't been worked enough. I prefer my auto flowers to be worked enough that each pheno in the pack really captures the aspects that the breeder was intending. This is why I recommend Gnome Automatics to my friends and listeners who grow automatic flowering cannabis seeds, gnome automatic seeds are not just crossed and released. They are painstakingly sifted again and again tested in a wide range of conditions and taken to a level of maturity that each plant will be recognizable by its traits, traits that were hard earned so that you can have your best growth cycle ever over the last 10 years. Speaker 1 01:20:32 Nome Automatics founder Dan Jimmy has become a trusted breeder and he continues to pour his passion of breeding cannabis into every variety he releases for you to grow. Check out the automatics Instagram at no automatics to see the impressive plants folks are growing. You can score no automatic seeds in feminized or regular at your favorite seed provider listed in the vendor section of their website. Commercial cannabis farms across the country love growing gnome automatics because of their consistency from seed to seed. Short grow times THC percentages and colorful bag appeal. Farms interested in bulk seeds of more than a thousand should reach out through gnome automatics.com. While on the website, be sure to check out the gnome automatic shirts and other merch section two. If you want reliable Seeds, hand built from effort, expert selection and experience, choose gnome automatics. Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. Speaker 1 01:21:34 I am your host sheo, and today my guest is Regenerative Farmer Daniel Stein. So Daniel, during this last section, I want to talk about, um, some macro ideas, um, around land management and, and let's start with crop rotation. Um, you know, we talked a lot during the first set about, um, the, the joy of planning the farm and, and how that plan can evolve over the years. And you know, that you don't have to do everything the first year. Um, but you know, one of the challenges that people get into is they really kind of fall in love with their farm design and, and where things go. And so everything has a place, but, but as regenerative farmers, we also know the benefit that comes from crop rotation. So we're not trying to feed the same crop with the same soil all the time, but gosh, um, it's really easy to not rotate, um, crops. Um, different farmers I've spoken to will either rotate and some will be like, well, I just choose to amend and not rotate. Um, I'd like to hear what your thoughts are. Speaker 2 01:22:37 Um, I think my thoughts on this is, is do what you can see, see where rotations are important for you and, and where they aren't. Um, and sometimes it, it's self-limiting. For instance, with cannabis, we couldn't rotate because we had such a hard time explaining to the regulatory agencies what crop rotation is, and we didn't feel like redrawing and resubmitting our maps every year. Oh. Um, and but what's interesting is that led us to a discovery, which is that I think cannabis likes to grow in the same spot. And when I started thinking about it and, and imagining cannabis growing in the wild, you know, like a ditch weed, for instance, cannabis produces a ton of seeds that fall right there and, and regrow right there. Um, so I think cannabis as a plant is used to growing in its own shadow, I guess you would say. Speaker 2 01:23:39 Um, and, you know, that doesn't change the fact that crop rotation can reduce pest pressure, especially pests that tend to over winter in the soil or things like that, or wouldn't be beneficial. But I, I think for us, for our different crops, we weighed the benefit of crop rotation versus the challenge of crop rotation and decide individually on each thing. Um, you know, for instance, in our vegetable farm, we have a block that is lettuce production that we don't rotate because the infrastructure that it takes for us to have year round lettuce production in this hot arid climate doesn't lend itself well to rotation. And lettuce doesn't seem to be a problem in terms of nutrient use or pest. And with rotation things like, um, garlic and tomatoes and carrots, we tend to rotate and primarily are rotation for those isn't nutrient based. 'cause we are so well provided with nutrients through compost. Speaker 2 01:24:41 Our rotation tends to be what crops do a good job of reducing weed pressure for the next crop. That doesn't do well with the weed pressure. Like for instance, carrots might come after zucchini because zucchini reduced the, the seed bank of weeds in that area, and then carrots can come after them and things like that. So, uh, it's one of those things, uh, cover it's more important to plant stuff and, and get it in the ground than to get it just right because, um, at the end of the day, you'd rather have a, a, you know, carrot that's not perfect than not to have any carrots, <laugh>. Um, and it's similar to how I feel about, uh, planting with moon cycles. Like plant it out, try to plant with the moon cycles. If you don't miss it, if you miss it, don't wait a month to plant again, because it's better to have it growing a month than to to hit it on exactly the energetic cycle. Um, that, Speaker 1 01:25:46 That bit that you said about do your best. Right on. Do your best. That's good theme for today. You know, that, you kind of blew my mind at the, at the top of your answer when you, when you pointed out that cannabis seeds when mature are pushed out of the flour and just dropped to the ground at its own feet and start next year's plants right there at its feet, you know, they're, they're, they're not, they're not air distributed. And, and while, while they could be distributed by birds, that's, that's really not their main shtick, they really are. Speaker 2 01:26:13 No birds crack 'em open Speaker 1 01:26:15 And then there you go. So, so they don't even, they don't even survive the process. So, um, yeah, that, that really kind of sets crop rotation for cannabis in my head in a totally, in a totally different realm. I, uh, I'm already envisioning the, the next time I talk to a microbiologist about the difference between, um, the root structures of, of, of plants that need to be cover or not cover crop need to be rotated versus ones who don't. Because I'm sure that life in the rhizosphere is entirely different for plants that are, are built to be the same location every year. Speaker 2 01:26:51 Yeah. And, and that microrisal relationship is there too. It's like the roots of the previous year are there with all of its microbiology while you plant the next year. Speaker 1 01:27:02 Yeah. And they must have very burly exudates too. Speaker 2 01:27:06 I'd imagine so. Yeah, sure. It does seem like it. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:27:08 Right on. So, so let's, let's talk about another variety of land management other than crop rotation. So, you know, we, we've been talking about different parts of your parcel and how they relate, but really if we, if we pull the, pull the camera out, your whole whole parcel is one big, um, land mass of growing as well. Um, what kinds of forward thinking, big picture land management do you use on the parcel as a whole? I'm thinking stuff like controlled burns and things like that that can regenerate the property itself. Speaker 2 01:27:44 Yeah, exactly. Um, so our homestead is perhaps five to 10 acres of, of the overall parcel. And we're on 170 acres. Most of it is forested and relatively steep. Um, and here in, in northern California, our, our native forest environment has been very affected by, by extractive land management and the exclusion, uh, of native cultural land management. Um, so when we're looking at the overall property, we're trying to understand how we take it from this state where it's out of balance because, uh, of logging and fire suppression and get it back into its natural balance, which for this area is, is a natural fire regimen and more of an old growth, less, less trees, more space between the trees, more biodiversity. Um, so yeah, we're, we're looking intensely at that. We've, we've partnered with, um, some local nonprofits that work on, on watershed restoration. We're doing some big in-depth studies of, of how groundwater moves through the, the soil here. Speaker 2 01:29:03 Basically in this area, geologically, we have a, a bedrock layer that's relatively impenetrable by water on a lot of it, and then a 20 to 30 foot deep soil sponge on top of that. And, and, um, we don't have aquifers. Our summertime water is the water that slowly moves through that sponge from, from the ridges down to the creeks and out. So where we have groundwater wells, where we're studying infiltration from rain, how long it stays in the soil, where it moves through the watershed. And then we're gonna be doing some, some, um, forest restoration work, thinning and living and, and just kind of every bringing it back into balance forest restoration work we could do in that area, and seeing how that changes the water flow through that watershed. And then moving on after we get to study that for a couple of years to doing a prescribed fire in that area and seeing how that affects water infiltration and does it affect the pH of the groundwater and how does that change the soil structure, uh, and things like that. Speaker 2 01:30:16 So that's kind of the long range is looking towards how we get this large parcel back to a place where we can manage it through the use of prescribed natural fire. And then also what land management techniques can use on a closer level. And that's where things like the goats come in, they're kind of like a biological fire where they consume a lot of the biomass around, around our area and keep it down. So, so not only does it get into a better balance, but it keeps us fire safe. We, we are in a, a fire prone environment and because of this out of balance with fire that we have, it is, um, it, it's very catastrophic when it happens, as we all know. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:31:01 Um, you know, the way that you talk about these bigger projects, which, um, it's amazing that you are able to find time or create time to do something that, that, that is that big and future minded versus just the daily demands of a farm, but really that extra effort that you put in it, it's, it's like the farming, um, equivalent of generational wealth. You know, it's like, it's like you're, you're doing these studies and you're learning how, how the, the, the farm, uh, parcel will be, will be better over time with your eye on 20 and 30 years out so that the, you know, you can be a participant in the evolution of the nature around you, but also that, um, your farm has got a reliable backbone, uh, you know, in in case in case your, your kids wanna take it over in time or something like that. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's philosophically really, uh, important to regenerative farming and, and, and often given short shrift. Speaker 2 01:32:08 Well, and, and land ownership is funny. It's like, um, you know, I'm here now. Maybe my kids will be here. Maybe they won't, but this land will be here either way. Mm-Hmm. And in terms of like, time to do this, I'm, I'm super fortunate. I, I have great partnerships. Um, I am do some grant writing, but I'm working with local nonprofits that are doing the grant writing, actually doing the work, and I'm just coordinating with them to see that it's happening. Oh, that's Speaker 1 01:32:34 Great. Um, so it's wonderful having people like that working on your behalf, <laugh>. Speaker 2 01:32:41 Yeah, it's incredible. And you know, to some degree it's the openness to it and the, the the engaging in the community constantly in these spheres of, you know, a a a big part here. A as the, the economy is shifting here as, as cannabis economy has changed and gotten integrated into this larger broken economy. Oh, good. Speaker 1 01:33:05 Saying it's shifting is like the, the, the, the nicest possible way to put what's going on around you. Speaker 2 01:33:12 Yeah. I mean, think it, it's, honestly, it's coming into balance, but unfortunately it's coming into balance with a broken system. Yeah, Speaker 1 01:33:19 It sure is. Speaker 2 01:33:20 And that's, that's kind of the way it goes. But one of the economies that is starting to take some of that, um, burden is, is the restoration economy. What we have here is an incredible amount of, of beautiful forested land in our area, and it, it needs work, it needs restoration if we're gonna have healthy fisheries, if we're gonna be a fire safe community, et cetera. Speaker 1 01:33:47 So, um, you kind of set me up perfectly. These next two questions are, uh, economics based. And the first one is, um, uh, you know, what is the economic impact of switching to regenerative farming? You know, on a small farm, you know, you weren't, you weren't petroleum based to begin with, so it wasn't that much of a swing, but, um, you certainly stopped, you know, double digging and, and other, uh, potentially laborious, uh, practices, but you probably also traded those for other laborious practices. And, and okay, you're, you're saving money on, on a lot of inputs that a non regenerative farm would be buying in town. But then, but then you also have to buy materials to do other types of projects. There's like all of these, uh, trade offs in both directions. And so, um, so for regenerative farming, I think incorrectly is, is assumed to be so much more expensive to do because you don't get to use the shortcuts of, of, of modern farming, which is also happens to be poisoning everybody. So I'd just like to hear, um, how you, how you kind of like weigh it out about the, the economic impact, um, for you specifically on regenerative farming, regarding some of the other options that you have in front of you. Speaker 2 01:35:04 Yeah, I, I mean, I think for the options I have in front of me, regenerative farming is by far the most economically feasible. It's like when you align your values and your goals with what naturally wants to happen anyway, you are not needing the products and the, the physical energy to fight against the flow, um, on a larger scale. Yeah. Industrial farming benefits from economies of scale. And that's something that's, that's hard to do on our level of regenerative farming. I know there is regenerative farming at scale, um, that that does take advantage of some of those economies of scale. But I wouldn't have an economy of scale in our type of farm, even if I were to spray poison on everything and rode to till the crap out of it <laugh>. Um, you know, and when it comes down to it, it's like it has to work economically if you're doing it as a business, otherwise it doesn't work. Speaker 2 01:36:07 Um, but it also has to work, you know, you couldn't pay me enough money to spray poison on my land. I live here. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so it, even if that worked economically, it wouldn't work. So you have to draw your boundaries somewhere. And luckily with, with regenerative no-till farming it, it does work. It is less work to not till it is less work to not spray poison. Sometimes you do lose crops to, to pests. Um, as, as one of my great, um, farming mentor friends, Casey O'Neill from Happy Day says, when, when you're selling products to, to customers and your kale has a nice hole in it, it's like the kale is delicious and the hole doesn't taste like anything <laugh>. It's like, it, you, you get the products you get because of the way you farm. And they, it's a benefit. It, it, it really is a benefit economically. Speaker 1 01:37:08 So, um, I know that I'm kind of inside of a bubble that, that I'm probably in with you because the people that I roll with, uh, literally roll with. Um, we're all into regeneratively grown outdoor flower. Right. That's what we smoke and Yeah. Um, and we're not gonna, we don't, we're not gonna spend our, our our our money, um, uh, buying, uh, you know, a plus B flour from a dispensary, and we're certainly not gonna grow, you know, salt sodium flowers. We're, we're gonna do it regeneratively and outdoors. Um, that said, we are in a bubble. Right. And there, there is a market as, as a whole. And so, um, I'm curious to know, um, have you seen an increase in demand for your regeneratively produced cannabis? Because, you know, as somebody in journalism, I'm certainly helping, you know, raise the profile of regenerative and all of us who are in regenerative smoke, regenerative, but, um, I I I'm not familiar with like, how much of the market is being purchased regenerative, and there you are on the front line. So are, are you seeing an increased demand for your, uh, quality of cannabis flour? Speaker 2 01:38:29 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We are. Um, and it, it's an engagement thing. It, it, it, it's having direct contact as much with, with bud tenders, uh, as with customers and our brand, which we share with a number of other regenerative farmers is, is farm cut. And what we've noticed with that is, is the product we're coming to customers with sometimes is a hard sell. We're selling top shelf flour, minimally processed, so basically un trimmed to it and, uh, in quarter ounce amounts. And it, the, the, the hardest part is actually getting customers to try it the first time, because nearly across the board customers that try it come back for more, because objectively there is a difference in the experience from it. So, um, the, the challenge is definitely engaging with Bud Tenderers who often push indoor flower or brands they're familiar with, uh, whether out of habit or out of market dynamics. Um, but I, I feel like we have seen an increase in, in people seeking out regenerative flour and, uh, an in definitely an increase in the people who do seek out regenerative flour coming back for our brand after they have an experience with it. Speaker 1 01:39:57 Yeah. The proof really isn't a pudding, isn't it? Like af af Yeah. After you smoke outdoor that was, you know, carefully grown regeneratively. It really, it really does open up, um, what you think cannabis can be because of the wider terpene profiles and, you know, the burs in general. Speaker 2 01:40:14 Well, and the challenge for us and why we created that brand is you, you can grow the best regenerative flower in the world, and if you don't cure it right, it's not great and you can cure it perfectly. And if it makes its way to market in a way that doesn't preserve that and bring it to the customer in its best possible form, then you also lose that quality. And we kind of created a, a a way to get it to the customer in the way we enjoy it. And it blows people's minds. It's like when you, when you open a jar that's been vacuum sealed and, and not trimmed, and you, you break it open for the first time and break a couple sugar leafs off of it, it's overwhelming like the smell. And then when you smoke properly cured properly stored flour, the experience is, is just different and more full and more layered and nuanced than the experience from some fast dried indoor Speaker 1 01:41:13 <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>. Um, you know, there are two other aspects I wanna, um, uh, economic regenerative aspects I wanna focus on. Um, one you've already mentioned, which is the relationship with budtenders. Right. Um, because it is interesting that, um, you know, bud tenderers do have a lot of control in, uh, uh, influence in, in where they drive people for their purchases. So having a good relationship with budtenders is important. And in a lot of ways, like, you know, um, that friendship is also a regenerative farming p practice in a way, in that it's, it's creating community and outreach and, and, uh, reaching out with, um, you know, your philosophy of regenerative growing and, and what that meaning is. But, but also, and, and where I wanna focus more is, um, the cooperation and community spirit that you, um, need to have with other farmers on a basic level when you are trading resources like, oh, you know, I'll trade you, I'll trade you hay for manure, or whatever the trades may be, or, or, or sharing equipment. Speaker 1 01:42:20 Those kinds of relationships become really essential in regenerative farming when you're trying to, um, you know, be very resourceful. But then also you, you mentioned, uh, farm cut cannabis, um, the brand that you've put together with, um, you know, uh, looks like four different farms and yourselves, where, um, you know, you, you kind of get the benefits of being a scaled farm without having to do the, the negatives of a scaled farm. And, and, and that synergy only comes together because you get together with these all small farms and then market and distribute as one. And we all know that, that that was, you know, that was attempted at the beginning of, of, you know, proposition 64 days by outsiders where they're, oh, we're gonna pull together all the small farms. And then it ended up being a big crock. Um, but, but, but now in kind of like the dust of the brokenness of, of the cannabis, uh, system in, in California, we're seeing farmers come together, like really, like over the dinner table in a, in, in, in a smaller, less grandiose way. And it appears from the outside, uh, uh, um, that it's working. So, so maybe talk a little bit about this partnership with, um, you know, that you, that you all are calling farm cut cannabis. Speaker 2 01:43:44 Yeah. So that, that, that partnership is, is five farms, including ourselves. It's ourselves, Whitethorn Valley Farm, happy Day Farm, Emerald Spirit Botanicals in Mendo and Downham Farms in Nevada City area. And, um, it's just wonderful. We're, we're like-minded farmers who came together. We couldn't exactly create a co-op, but we created a brand together that we can share, and like you'd said, share resources, share, share the burden of the tasks. Um, Joseph from ALD Spirit is our, our, our primary salesperson. And he, uh, because other members of his family are taking care of the farm, he's able to travel a lot and, and visit dispensaries and, and talk to people about, about farm cut and about our products and make those relationships. And, and we've played to all of our strengths and been able to develop systems and processes that, that work for us, whether it's sharing equipment or pooling our resources to be able to say, um, we have packaging that says Standard Mason Jar, and we could not find a good childproof lid for a standard mason jar that didn't have plastic in it. Speaker 2 01:44:59 So we were able to create one to, to go to a factory and say, we want plant-based childproof lid for, for this size jar and, and create that and bypass in bulk and things like that. And it, it's heartening, it's, it's, um, in this economic system where it's going towards integration with the kind of dog heat, dog venture, capitalist, capitalist world, the, the cooperation, uh, and the building something together gives us a lot of hope and a lot of a good feeling, especially doing it with people we just like seeing and being around. Anyway, <laugh> Speaker 1 01:45:38 That Yeah, totally. The, uh, doing business with people that we actually like really makes all the difference in the world. Oh, Speaker 2 01:45:45 It's so great. You Speaker 1 01:45:45 Know, it'd be really funny if this, um, if this, uh, new childproof cap for mason jars that you all invented, that, that, you know, that the patent for that actually ends up becoming popular because that's actually a really novel, useful idea and ends up making you all more, more income than the cannabis itself. You know, Speaker 2 01:46:07 There was, there was somebody already doing it, and we were, we were getting those, um, and they were great products. They, they were on the pricey side. Uh, but the main thing that, that we wanted is something that didn't have any plastic. And the one we had initially started with our brand is made with a flax fiber and a recycled plastic, and we wanted one that was entirely biological. Yeah. Plant-based material. And, and that's where we got into it. And yeah, who knows what the, the long, long term of that, I'm, I'm just right now keeping my fingers crossed that that California could be a big enough market that we can, we can sell a majority of our product through this brand that is, is a joy to, to be part of. And, um, we're not there yet, but we're doing really well. Speaker 1 01:46:54 Excellent, excellent. Well, it's nice, it's nice to see good people coming together in a good union, uh, for, for shared benefit. Speaker 2 01:47:02 Yeah, it feels great too. I mean, it's, it's, we get such incredibly positive feedback from, from customers and dispensaries about it that it e even just that alone, besides the business aspect, it's like, um, it's a good feeling to know that the thing you put so much energy into creating well and taking care of well is, is received and acknowledged for being what it is in the world. Speaker 1 01:47:27 And, and also specifically the, the farms that you have partnered with, I know several of the folks and you know, like who, who doesn't wanna be in partnership with regenerative farmers who are generally happy go lucky people anyway, you know, I mean, you know, I I probably know Casey the best and, you know, great success to all of it, you know, <laugh>. Exactly. Speaker 2 01:47:46 Exactly. Great success. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:47:48 So, so let's finish off with this question. You know, like we intentionally designed this episode today so that we could talk about your farm, um, in detail, but really as an example of what can happen on everybody's farm who's listening, right. Whether or not they're transitioning from, from petroleum farming or, or if they're just coming to their parcel and, and I think we get a did a good job of that, um, but, but really like the direct advice really could be profound and inspirational. So, so let's finish with that. So what advice would you give to a farmer with a new parcel, or who is transitioning, who is just starting out with regenerative practices? Speaker 2 01:48:32 Hmm. I think the best advice, um, would be kind of go if you've read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Yeah, for sure. The best advice in the world is don't panic. Speaker 1 01:48:45 Oh, I thought you were gonna say to bring a towel <laugh>, Speaker 2 01:48:47 That that's not a bad idea. Speaker 2 01:48:50 Uh, no, don't, don't panic. Don't stress. Do what you can. None of us are, are on an island there. There's no such thing as a complete closed loop sustainability system. Look at your farm, do your best. Find, find the resources that you have available and adapt to them. Find the markets you have available and adapt to them. Don't be too hard on yourself for the things that don't work and, and don't imagine that, that we can be pure or to keep, um, that we can do everything we dream as regenerative right from the start. I'm, you, you introduced me as a regenerative farmer. I'm not a regenerative farmer. I don't think anybody is a regenerative farmer. I I think all of us are striving to align our farming with natural process and balancing that with the needs of being a human on earth right now, and what is available to us and what the, the constraints and the, the, the burdens that, that, that we have to deal with. So find that balance. Don't get squeezed between your ideals and your reality. Make make your way the path that that is best for you. And then see where you can improve it towards natural systems towards more sustainability and make some improvement that is possible for you with each season and go in that direction. Speaker 1 01:50:33 Beautiful. Well, Daniel, thank you so much for sharing your, your depth of experience and your passion for farming and doing the right thing and, and your vision for your, you know, your own parcel and your own family and your own life. I think that, um, you know, through these words, hopefully we've given some people some new ideas for things to do on their own parcels and also, uh, you know, just, just put regenerative farming more into the realm of the possible instead of the realm of the ideal. So I know your time is valuable and I, I really thank you for spending it with us on Shaping Fire. Speaker 2 01:51:12 Yeah, thank you. It's, it's been really enjoyable and I just hope everybody gets out there and gets their hands dirty this spring. Speaker 1 01:51:18 Fantastic. Okay, dear listeners, so if you want to, uh, know more about Priceland Forest Farm, where, uh, where Daniel is owner with his wife Taylor, um, uh, you can find out that at Priceland Forest Farm on Instagram or on their [email protected]. And Bri Lynn is B-R-I-C-E-L-A-N-D. And, um, we would love it if you would, uh, you know, if you live in California, if you're, or if you're traveling there to stop at your dispensary and buy some Farm Cut Cannabis, um, their small farm, uh, community group. And, uh, if you wanna follow along with them, um, you on ig, that's Farm Cut Canna and, uh, on the interwebs, that's farm cut cannabis.com. You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the [email protected] and wherever you get your podcasts. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you would leave a positive review of the podcast. Speaker 1 01:52:20 Wherever you download your view will help others find the show so they can enjoy it too. On the Shaping Fire website, you can also subscribe to the newsletter for insights into the latest cannabis news exclusive videos and giveaways on the Shaping Fire website. You also find transcripts of today's podcast as well. Be sure to follow on Instagram. For all original content not found on the podcast that's at Shaping Fire and at shingo los on Instagram, be sure to check out the Shaping Fire YouTube channel for exclusive interviews, farm tours, and cannabis lectures. Does your company wanna reach our national audience of cannabis enthusiasts? Email [email protected] to find out how. Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Shang Los.