0:00

Hello , friend , and welcome to this episode . That

0:02

deserves its own special

0:04

, unique introduction , because

0:06

the conversation can get a little intense

0:08

at times , it can be confronting , it

0:10

can feel sometimes challenging to listen to as

0:12

a man , and I wanted to just give this

0:14

preface up front . It's

0:16

about sex , yes , but it's not about

0:18

how to be the best technically skilled

0:20

lover . It's not about how to boost your performance

0:23

in bed , technically

0:25

skilled lover . It's not about how to boost your performance in bed . It's about another

0:27

really important aspect of sex that is crucial to dive into

0:29

if we want to be truly strong

0:32

, powerful , integrated and positively

0:34

impactful sexual men

0:36

. Today I'm interviewing a man

0:38

named Misha , who I found

0:40

because I was looking up information

0:43

about ISTA , which is the International School

0:45

of Temple Arts . They're an organization that has

0:47

come under scrutiny and criticism

0:49

over the past bunch of years because of some of the behavior

0:52

of some of their instructors , and I found

0:54

Misha because he was

0:56

somebody who was directly involved

0:58

with creating repair processes for

1:00

the organization and the individuals involved

1:03

, and I thought , wow , this guy looks really

1:05

interesting and this is his profession to

1:07

help people learn from and integrate and

1:10

acknowledge and heal the harm

1:12

that they've caused in the world . And I thought , wow

1:14

, this needs to be a conversation

1:16

, this needs to be on the podcast

1:18

, because this is a crucial missing

1:21

piece for so many of us . I

1:23

just want to be clear that I am not up here

1:25

on some pedestal saying you need

1:27

to heal your sexual harm , and I've

1:29

never caused sexual harm . I've definitely

1:31

caused harm to people , even in my current

1:34

relationship with my current partner . And

1:36

it's a journey , it's a process of

1:38

navigating it and learning to create

1:40

repair . I learned a ton

1:42

from this episode . I

1:44

learned a ton , lots of really useful

1:47

, practical , actionable things in

1:49

this episode that you can take into your life , into

1:51

your current relationships , into your past relationships

1:54

, and create healing

1:56

and navigate them with much

1:58

more ease and clarity and create

2:00

really positive outcomes . And that

2:02

, again , is so crucially

2:05

important if we want to be strong

2:07

, powerful , positively impactful

2:10

, sexual , integrated men . So

2:12

thank you , thank you again for

2:14

being here . Let's

2:18

get into today's episode . My

2:24

basic understanding is that you're somebody who's come

2:26

from a unique background , who started a lot

2:28

of different big projects in the world and and

2:30

non-profits and had a big impact

2:32

, and then at a certain point , you realize , oh

2:34

, somehow I'll speak

2:37

as if I'm you , somehow I've been hurting certain

2:39

people in the process and my

2:41

impact therefore isn't as positive

2:43

or powerful as it could be . Ooh

2:46

, I need to examine this . I went

2:48

through your own process and came out the

2:50

other side and realized just how important it

2:52

is to do integrity work and

2:54

then eventually got to the position

2:56

where you are now , which is a man who supports other

2:59

men , deepening into their

3:01

integrity so that they can be better community

3:03

leaders and people , etc

3:06

. Is that accurate and welcome

3:08

?

3:09

thank you , yeah , oh yeah , let's start it

3:11

. I feel like it's the perfect way to start a leadership

3:14

and integrity podcast . There's just so like such such

3:16

lofty and ambitious

3:18

topics is to is to talk about like , okay

3:20

, like , how did I come to this ? It's what most people's

3:22

first questions are curiosity , um

3:25

, I it what

3:27

? I didn't have a big call out , I didn't have

3:29

like someone who was like , or or like

3:31

a group of people calling me out or do the big

3:33

cancellation thing . That was never . That was never my

3:35

truth . I did have moments , moments

3:39

of realizing that that the way

3:41

that I was conducting myself , especially around sex

3:43

, um , uh , were

3:45

, were out of my integrity and

3:48

yet very , very much

3:50

like ingrained in me . Um

3:52

. Moments

3:54

when I realized that my , I I'd placed my

3:57

agenda over attunement in

3:59

in in sexual relations . Moments where I

4:01

realized , oh , my God , like I have been willfully

4:05

ignoring the realities of

4:07

um , of what it would

4:09

mean to be an ethical human in the , in

4:11

this interaction , in this dynamic , like kind

4:14

of letting myself get away with fuck

4:16

boy dynamics . Excuse me if I'm going to say that .

4:18

You can say fuck , you can say pussy

4:20

, yeah .

4:20

I mean , I try not to curse , but anyway

4:23

, whatever , but like , but yeah , like fuck

4:25

boy . Dynamics in the sense of just kind of saying

4:28

whatever I

4:30

felt like , without thinking about the repercussions

4:32

. Engaging in

4:35

inadvertent

4:37

love bombing , inadvertent breadcrumbing dynamics

4:40

with women Of course

4:42

never maliciously , but that's not the point with

4:46

women , of course never maliciously , but that's not the point . And just having these moments

4:48

of realizing , you know , again and again , I am

4:50

someone who everybody says I'm a good man , everybody

4:52

experiences me as a good man . I get a

4:55

lot of that feedback and yet I'm still capable

4:57

of immense harm . I'll also just name

4:59

that I had an

5:01

episode many years ago

5:03

, over a decade ago , in

5:05

which I was , in the context

5:07

of a very bad breakup , hurt

5:12

a woman like , actually hit her in

5:14

the course of a big breakup fight and

5:19

we both got physical . Only time that I've gotten

5:21

physical , but it was it was a huge wake

5:23

up call for me to like , talk about

5:25

, to , to like , to realize how

5:28

capable , sweet

5:31

, conscientious feminist

5:34

men

5:36

, men who like , like , have always been

5:38

getting this like feedback from women of like , oh , you're

5:40

so different , it's so wonderful , you're so involved , how

5:43

capable we are of harm . And in fact , as

5:47

I've gone through my career , I've

5:49

really ended up focusing mostly

5:51

on men who have a

5:53

feminist bent , who want to be good men in the

5:55

world , who want to be men of integrity , who want to be progressive

5:57

, and not just how

6:00

capable they are of harm , but how much

6:02

more capable , interestingly , their

6:04

feminism or their progressive stances

6:06

make them of doing harm . Yeah

6:08

, because

6:13

we receive so much trust , such that when from this particular woman

6:15

, such that when we

6:17

do do harm , it feels like betrayal .

6:19

Yeah , thank you , yeah , so much for sharing

6:22

that intro and that that personal piece

6:24

from over 10 years ago . And , yeah , thank you , yeah , so much for sharing that intro and that that personal piece from over 10 years ago . And

6:26

I

6:28

want to normalize also that , like

6:30

all of us , I'll

6:33

just go ahead and say pretty much 99%

6:35

of men at some point have hurt people

6:37

on intentionally , you know , like

6:39

that's just what happens , and

6:42

we're not bad because of it . If you're

6:44

listening and you've done this , you're not bad because

6:46

of it . You're not a bad person , you're not worthless

6:48

, et cetera . But

6:53

it's an opportunity to grow and to evolve and then to come into better relationships with

6:55

people in general . So I'd like to name that

6:58

up front and I also want to just say

7:00

, because you mentioned it and I'm sure

7:02

some people are thinking it right now Like you said , oh

7:04

, in the heat of the moment , over 10 years ago

7:06

you actually hit your partner or

7:08

ex-partner . Some

7:14

people will probably think like , oh well , this means this guy has no room to talk on the realm

7:16

of accountability or something like that too . So I'd love it if you could just like

7:18

speak to that for a little bit . Like what

7:21

sort of systems have you set in place , how

7:24

have you worked to to address

7:27

that within yourself , so

7:29

that you can then help other people ?

7:32

Oh sure , yeah , Thanks

7:34

, and I mean , yeah , this is a there's

7:37

, there's unresolved like

7:40

. It's given me like a

7:43

lot of a lot to grow on

7:45

, the

7:48

biggest , or there's many things

7:50

. That

7:53

night alcohol was involved and I'm now three years

7:55

sober . I don't do drugs or alcohol at

7:57

all , but

7:59

there's

8:02

, that's a big

8:04

one , that's a real big one . Yeah , um

8:06

, there's also a lot of like personal

8:08

growth , learning , work that I've done to

8:10

like evolve myself to the point where , like

8:12

, I can recognize the signs of

8:14

rage or anger , where I can

8:16

um mitigate that

8:19

, where I can catch myself way earlier in any

8:21

kind of like trigger process , where

8:23

I can , um , and have very

8:25

successfully avoided the

8:28

kinds of , uh the

8:31

kinds of dynamics that were present in the relationship

8:33

that she and I had , which was in

8:35

many ways a really unhealthy relationship where

8:37

we were egging each other on in a really

8:40

really unhealthy ways . Um , and

8:43

yeah , I've come to like

8:45

, through therapy , through coaching , through men's work

8:47

, I've come to recognize those dynamics

8:49

and avoid them and make sure I'm not

8:52

having any kinds of giant incoherences

8:54

in my life , right

8:57

, where there are these kind of like , like , just don't

8:59

look at that part of my life Like everything else

9:01

looks good right Like that the life is

9:03

genuinely , genuinely coherent

9:05

, even even under a microscope

9:07

, and I could hold my head up about that . Um

9:09

, I've gotten psychologically

9:13

okay with um , my own

9:15

sexuality and my own shortcomings in a way

9:17

that , like , I'm much less easily triggerable

9:19

. Um , I

9:21

think part of part of that episode

9:23

and and um a lot of my own insecurities was

9:26

was about um , yeah

9:29

, anyway , without getting too much into

9:31

my own psychology , psychodrama like

9:33

see , like , what , like triggered

9:36

a lot of my own insecurities around being a

9:38

uh um from

9:41

being a failure um and

9:43

being uh uh

9:45

being ultimately

9:47

deeply callous . I was

9:49

really , really

9:52

, really resistant against the idea that I didn't care

9:54

, and

9:59

I've reconciled

10:01

a lot of that . I'm 42 now . I

10:03

was in my 20s . I've

10:06

been on my own personal growth journey , but one of

10:08

the big takeaways and I really want to name this First

10:10

of all , I want to hold the space for anybody

10:12

hearing about this and

10:16

feeling their own pain , either having

10:18

caused it or having been hurt . You've

10:24

heard the expression that hurt people , cause hurt people , cause

10:26

hurt . Right , um

10:29

, hurt people , hurt people . I

10:32

mean that's , that's true , but

10:34

I think we all hurt people . I

10:36

don't think you need to like be able to like isolate

10:39

a like I was really

10:41

well loved I I

10:43

come from a really loving background . I come from a

10:46

financially abundant background

10:48

. There

10:51

is a trauma

10:53

of alienation in privileged

10:55

people where that

10:58

, where , where there is there is some sort of a , a

11:01

pain of being divorced

11:03

from the collective human experience

11:05

. But ultimately

11:08

, like I don't , I don't carry a lot of trauma in my

11:10

body . Like I've taken trauma certification

11:12

courses as part of my work with men , like I've

11:15

taken abuse courses , like you don't have

11:17

to be someone who has experienced

11:19

a lot of pain to be capable of

11:21

causing a lot of pain . Yeah

11:23

, you know , like we're all part

11:26

of the human drama , regardless of how much trauma we

11:28

carry in our body , how much like whether or not we

11:30

had nice parents . I don't think that , like , the

11:32

fact that you had nice parents in immunizes

11:35

you from from

11:37

being capable of causing pain or from having

11:39

all sorts of weird insecurities that need to get worked

11:41

out . And

11:43

that was actually a big lesson for me and it's something I've

11:46

carried through of helping otherwise

11:48

very good men see their capacity

11:50

to do harm .

11:51

Yeah , awesome , yeah . Thank you so

11:53

much . And also for context , I noticed on

11:55

your website you referenced that you have also

11:58

like proactive accountability options

12:01

for people and we can go into that

12:03

and like should anybody ? you know , I'd

12:06

like to start a different in a different place first

12:08

, but I just want to mention like it seems like you have

12:10

systems in place that are set up to

12:12

where , if there are problems that arise , people can

12:14

address them , and you want to be addressed , like

12:17

you . You are , you're an open door

12:19

and reaching for this sort of a thing

12:21

.

12:21

Right and for mean and I mean and

12:23

like . Okay , so like , let's just talk about that briefly , all

12:25

right , just briefly . Yeah right , redundant

12:28

systems of support , men's group , coach

12:30

, therapist , psychiatrist , um

12:32

sobriety , uh temple

12:35

, uh rabbi , like I have

12:37

multiple overlapping and redundant

12:39

systems of support , I have cultivated

12:42

community that like speaks to me and that , like

12:44

I can , um be in relationship

12:46

with in a way that , like , I don't have to hide , um

12:49

, that's critical

12:51

. Yeah , and yes , I have um

12:53

supervisory structure that I've created for

12:55

myself proactively . It was not like

12:57

demanded of me by my community , but it was definitely

12:59

something that I saw looking around like needed to

13:01

happen . So you can , I

13:03

welcome feedback , even

13:06

the saltiest , angriest feedback . I

13:08

welcome people telling me that I've hurt them , and I

13:10

promise not to greet it with defensiveness or minimization

13:12

. And I've proactively

13:15

set up a system for when people , like don't think

13:17

that I'm safe . If people don't think I'm safe , they

13:20

can go to two external supervisors

13:22

, who I trust but who are not

13:24

beholden to me , who

13:27

have their own independent jobs and incomes , and

13:31

you can tell them hey

13:33

, we think , I think Misha's dangerous or I think Misha's

13:35

like , I don't think Misha should be doing his work

13:37

, and I never , I'm never

13:39

, I'm never immune to that . I

13:42

never think I'm above that . I'm never immune to

13:45

that . I never think I'm above that . And those people Marsha Bojinski wrote

13:47

the book Creating Consent Culture and

13:49

Angel Adioja has been a transformative justice

13:51

facilitator for 20 years and they

13:53

now run Folsom Street Fair , which is the largest

13:55

leather and kink event in the world . And

13:58

those two people have , you know , have agreed to , like you

14:00

know , effectively be supervisory

14:02

in that right , and I also have regular check-ins with them

14:04

. I go over , like ethical

14:07

questions that are coming up . You know , how did I handle

14:09

this kind of client , like what , you know what ? How

14:11

should I handle this issue or this , uh , this

14:14

opportunity , et cetera ? Yeah , um , yeah

14:16

.

14:17

Awesome , cool . Yeah , thanks for that context

14:19

. That's awesome , and I think it's really important to frame

14:21

the conversation , you know , like

14:23

this is . We're

14:25

looking at , ultimately , how to be a

14:27

better man , right , how to be a man

14:30

who has ? positive impact in the world . So some people will be

14:32

listening to this and thinking like , oh

14:34

well , cool , that's cool for him

14:36

. Like

14:39

, how does that apply to me ? Right , and really

14:41

like , really I want to . I want to go into

14:44

the realm of specifically

14:46

talking about people who are in some kind

14:49

of position of leadership or

14:51

power or something like that . And so

14:54

, for example , like if you're somebody out there who

14:56

leads a class on something , if

14:58

you're leading a workshop

15:00

, if you're leading an experience , if you've written a book

15:02

, if you're like hosting a show , if you're like

15:04

X , y and Z , what

15:09

else , you know what , what a ? What

15:11

is power ? You know ? Oh

15:22

, this is the person that does this thing . Like

15:24

this episode is is really

15:27

for you , you know , to become better at that

15:29

, to become more effective , and I

15:31

think it starts with a question

15:34

of what is power . You know

15:36

what is power ? Because all of those positions

15:39

come with a certain amount of power , whether or not we

15:41

want them . Me , like , there I come

15:43

, I have a certain amount of power . Now , too , I have a very

15:45

large social media following . Like I'm a sexologist

15:48

, I'm an established sex educator . Like there

15:51

are certain projections and weights and powers

15:53

that people give me some that I'm probably

15:55

not even aware of still and like

15:57

that impacts how I relate relate

15:59

with people and interact with people . So

16:01

I'll just pause

16:04

and ask you , like , in your mind

16:06

, what is , what is power in those

16:08

contexts ?

16:11

I use a really general , broad

16:13

definition because I found that the most effective

16:15

way of thinking about power um

16:17

is is broad and

16:20

um malleable . Um

16:22

, I think power is the ability

16:25

to impact and influence others . Right

16:28

in terms of , if we're

16:30

talking about interpersonal power , which I think we are , yeah

16:32

, um , you can also talk about intrinsic power

16:34

within . You can talk about , like , oh , the power

16:36

that we can achieve together if we all unite , but I

16:39

think right now we're talking about interpersonal power dynamics

16:41

and mostly power over yeah um

16:43

, what does it mean for us to hold

16:45

power or someone to project power

16:47

onto us ? um , the

16:50

other thing I'll say just right up front

16:52

about dynamic power is that power

16:54

is dynamic . It's

16:57

really easy in a um

17:00

, politically progressive context

17:03

to think of power as static , as

17:06

as like this is , you know , like

17:08

there's , he's the white guy in the room , so he's got

17:10

to hold all the power , and that's just what it is . It's

17:13

really important , I think , to think about power

17:15

as dynamic and flowing that there's

17:18

. That power shifts even as

17:20

the conversation goes along . That power shifts as we

17:22

all get older or younger . There's

17:24

a great example that one of my consent educator mentors

17:26

shared of like , uh

17:29

, they they're , uh , they they

17:31

work in , um , in , uh , intimacy

17:34

coordination for hollywood movies , and

17:36

um , they told a story of of

17:38

a of a movie set in which a very

17:40

established actress , a very famous

17:42

, established actress , was on the set , but she was older

17:45

. And then there was a much younger

17:47

, ingenue actress

17:49

who were both on the set and

17:52

they hadn't met , and they both were like avoiding each

17:54

other for the first day because both of them had this

17:56

intimidation right . Both of them had projected that

17:58

the other person held more power . Right

18:00

, the young woman was like this is like she

18:02

won an Oscar , and

18:05

the old woman was like this is like she won an oscar . And the old woman was like this woman's about

18:07

to replace me . You know , this is where this woman is , is where all

18:09

the male gaze is going , all the attention

18:11

is going , and she represents everything , I fear

18:13

. And so both of them had this

18:15

right . So , like , power is also

18:17

both dynamic and also perceived

18:20

. Right like perception , it plays a role

18:22

. You were talking about the projections that people might

18:24

be putting on you that you might not be aware of . Um

18:27

, I think it's really important to recognize

18:29

, if you're you , how

18:31

much power that confers on you , whether or not you

18:34

hold a specific formal position

18:36

of authority over anybody . Right like um

18:39

, informal power is often

18:41

far more relevant than

18:45

formal power . Formal power is almost easier

18:47

to spot . Right Like , I

18:49

know that my boss has power over me . Right

18:52

Like got it . That's

18:55

pretty basic , right , informal

18:58

power , like this person knows

19:00

everybody at this event and I don't know anybody . This

19:02

person is a consent educator and

19:04

I am automatically , without even consciously

19:07

acknowledging it , giving them the benefit of the doubt

19:09

for this kind of sketchy shit that's happening right now sexually

19:12

between us . That's

19:14

the stuff that where , where , where

19:16

. I see a lot of clients , especially

19:19

my male clients , um , messing

19:22

up because in the

19:25

minds of maybe this resonates with you , taylor , or

19:27

in the in the minds

19:29

of a lot of men that I've spoken with when I'm , when I talk

19:31

about power , they're like well , I'm not Elon Musk , I'm

19:33

not Donald Trump , I'm not the head

19:35

of a fortune 500 , whatever . I'm not looking

19:37

like these guys on Instagram on private jets , so I

19:40

don't have any power . What are you talking about ? I was unpopular

19:42

in high school , you know . What

19:46

are you talking about ? You know , like I still have to work for a living

19:48

. How could I help ? How could I ? How could I hold any power

19:50

? Right

19:53

? So our self-conceptions can betray us

19:55

and this is where I see a huge amount of harm

19:57

occurring generally is , yeah

20:00

, it's the failure to acknowledge our own power .

20:01

Yeah , can you speak a little bit more to that . Like I

20:04

think that's super juicy . Like , yeah

20:07

, like , say more like the , the

20:09

failure to acknowledge our own power , like so

20:11

, so okay , there's consent consent

20:14

educator who here it is ? Here it is

20:16

Like like people don't know .

20:17

Okay . So , like what I do professionally is

20:20

I support men who

20:22

generally are either

20:24

trying to prevent themselves from causing harm from their

20:26

position of power or who have caused harm in

20:28

their position of power and want

20:30

to use it as a source of growth

20:33

and evolution , which

20:36

involves really engaging in

20:38

the work of understanding , impact and conducting like deep

20:41

, deep

20:51

seated behavior change transfer and like psychological transformation

20:53

. One of the biggest sources of psychological

20:56

transformation that I help my clients to see is the degree to which

20:58

they hold power , because universally not

21:00

universally , but like 90% of the time in

21:02

my , in my work with clients , it

21:05

isn't actually the

21:07

actions that they've done right , it's not

21:10

like this person assaulted

21:12

in

21:15

it , right and that , and that's the problem , it's usually

21:17

this person was just a little pushy , but

21:20

from a position of power that they fail to recognize

21:22

. And then when I , when I , when we all brought

21:24

it to their attention , they got defensive and

21:26

when we talked about the way that , like the person

21:28

that they were being pushy to was like

21:30

intimidated by them , they denied that that was possible

21:33

. And it's

21:37

in the denial , it's in

21:39

the defensiveness , it's in the

21:41

abdication of power that

21:44

the real harm tends to occur

21:46

and that , okay , I'm

21:48

going to say that again . So it's not in the original

21:50

act , it's in how they were

21:52

, with realizing the act

21:54

it's

21:56

. And so , specifically around

21:58

power , around not being able to see . Oh

22:00

, like I I

22:03

talked to , I talked to a client

22:05

yesterday who was , you

22:07

know , has gone through his journey

22:09

and

22:12

the issues that

22:15

were raised about him had everything to do with

22:17

he doesn't get the

22:20

influence that he has and the responsibilities

22:23

that come with that . That

22:25

it's even if all the people

22:27

that he and this is , you know , this particular

22:29

client was in sex positive communities , there was a lot

22:31

of like hooking up with lots of people . Even

22:38

if all those people feel good about it , even if no

22:40

one feels bad about it afterwards , he's still

22:43

impacting the broader field . It , even if no one

22:45

feels bad about it afterwards , he's still impacting the broader field in

22:47

the indiscriminate and

22:49

power ignorant ways

22:51

that he's conducting his own sex life . I

22:54

want , I want . I'm actually going to put this , this point , up

22:56

front , because I always save it to the end , but I think

22:58

it's so important , taylor , like

23:00

most of us are operating right

23:04

from a very , very

23:06

ingrained position

23:10

around sex and power , which is you

23:13

with me . Yeah , all's fair

23:16

in love and war . And

23:19

so long as it's two consenting adults , no

23:21

one should be able to say anything . Consenting

23:26

adults , no one should be able to say anything . In fact , it's actually

23:28

sex negative and shamey right to to critique someone's sexual

23:30

choices so long as it was two

23:32

consenting adults . So a 55

23:35

year old man in a position of power sleeping

23:37

with his 25 year old secretary so long as they're consenting

23:40

, right . So long , well , right , let's just not

23:42

even make it her secretary . Maybe it's just like a 25

23:44

year old ingenue who comes into his community , right

23:46

, let's just say it like that , right

23:48

, there's no technical position

23:51

of power . Even let's say that he's not even

23:53

a teacher . Let's just say he's a community leader , you

23:55

know , and he's just . Let's not even say he's the organizer

23:57

of the space , let's just say that he's really well established

23:59

, right , 25

24:03

, 50 , just the age difference alone

24:05

and the experiential difference will create

24:07

a ripple effect around him

24:09

. And now let's say that he is

24:11

in charge of big communities . Maybe

24:13

that she is in or out of , but it doesn't really

24:16

matter , because everybody in his community

24:18

now doubts his judgment and

24:23

he , she , this woman , doesn't have

24:25

to be harmed by

24:27

him for people to doubt his judgment , and

24:31

this is this , is this runs against so much

24:33

of what we've believed about , like being sex positive

24:35

and being open and like saying , oh look , it's

24:38

all good so long as everybody's consenting , the whole consent

24:40

framework . This is one of the things about going beyond consent

24:42

like we have . Like consent

24:45

can't be our only barometer of harm . If

24:51

it is , we're lost because

24:54

we will ascribe harms that aren't

24:56

actually consent violations using

24:58

the language of consent violation , which confuses everybody

25:00

. Right , I'm sure we've all seen that , right where

25:02

guys are . I didn't consent violate

25:04

and three years later , like trying to make

25:06

sense of it , she's putting it

25:08

into the language of consent violation . You

25:13

know we're trying to make consent do too much of the work , like . The point is

25:16

that oftentimes things are consensual but also

25:18

really harmful , and

25:22

I think what most of us want is to prevent harm . I think when we're , when we talk

25:24

about consent , what we're really talking about is let's

25:27

prevent harm .

25:28

Yeah .

25:29

And if we're going to do that , that's a . That's a deeper

25:32

question and a and

25:34

, frankly , almost a different question , because there's plenty of

25:36

things that are consensual that can still be harmful . And

25:40

this is not just my point . I'm going to cite some really

25:42

beautiful influences right now . Amiya Srinivasan

25:44

, an Oxford philosophy professor , who wrote a very

25:47

controversial and amazing book called the Right to Sex

25:49

. She makes this point about

25:51

teachers and students often that like , yeah

25:53

, the teacher and student might be having consensual sex

25:55

, but it's impacting the ability of everybody else

25:57

to learn . Everybody

26:04

else in the classroom can't learn as well from a teacher who's sleeping with their

26:06

colleague , with their , with their fellow student , right , um ? Katherine angel um just came up

26:08

with an amazing book called uh , quoting

26:11

michelle foucault called tomorrow , sex will be good

26:13

again . She's also a british

26:15

academic . For some reason . They're just . That's where

26:17

the some of the most amazing thought thinking is coming

26:19

out of for consent theory . Uh

26:22

, she makes the point of uh

26:24

, why ? Why would we believe ? Like ? Why

26:26

, why would we think

26:28

that we can always know what we're

26:30

what we want ? Like ? Consent

26:33

orients towards everybody

26:35

being these rational actors and

26:37

say and being able to know exactly what we are

26:39

all gonna like , what we all want and what we are

26:41

gonna want which is the true

26:44

like ? That's not how human sexuality works

26:46

, right , you , you work in sexuality . That's not how

26:48

things are . So , like um

26:50

. Also , uh , clementine morgan

26:52

from canada , she ? Uh has

26:55

come up with the attunement model of consent , which

26:57

is amazing , right , and it talks about , like

26:59

um , it contrasts itself with

27:01

the contractual model . It says like um

27:04

, the contractual model is problematic for its lack

27:06

of eros right of like , agreeing to

27:08

every step , but it's also problematic for

27:10

its inability to

27:12

prevent harm . Right

27:14

, like . Again and again , let's come back to this . Let's as

27:17

a place to orient yeah right like

27:19

, yes , we should aim for pleasure , but

27:21

I think we should also aim to prevent harm , and I

27:23

don't think consent as a , as it's currently

27:26

construed , gets us there

27:28

. It's important , god knows , yeah , but

27:30

I don't think that we should limit our conversation

27:32

exclusively to it . We should , we should talk about harm

27:34

.

27:34

I can what . I'm thinking of a number of scenarios

27:37

right now , uh , in my own

27:39

community , and examples that I've seen where

27:41

consensual sexual interactions

27:44

have happened and technically it's within the

27:46

realm of consent , but massive

27:48

harm happened from it , and then there was

27:50

massive fallout . But then

27:53

, because it was technically consensual

27:55

, it's like I don't have responsibility

27:57

for that . And then , and then

27:59

I can see , like I can

28:01

see how that right there , like

28:03

that's the , that's the trigger point , you know , like that's the incendiary , how that right there , like that's the , that's

28:05

the trigger point , you know , like that's the incendiary , like that right

28:07

there is the shit that will blow it up and actually

28:09

create more harm and actually

28:11

create more harm . And so , yes , the defensiveness

28:14

, the blaming , the reversing

28:17

of like , oh no , actually no , I'm the victim

28:19

because you're accusing me of something when

28:21

it actually was consensual you said yes to

28:23

, you know , like it's a total head

28:25

fuck and yeah , and and

28:27

we don't have language , we don't have right , like so

28:30

we don't .

28:30

So there is , in

28:33

many ways , like a legit there's

28:35

, there's a deep legitimacy in in

28:37

the harm . Let's

28:40

just like , let's start there in the experience

28:42

of harm , of like this this wasn't okay . Like

28:44

yeah , technically I said yes , but he was totally

28:46

unattuned and he can teach his consent

28:48

. And yeah , he's totally unattuned , like he rushed

28:51

the consent conversation and that made me feel pressure

28:53

, like yeah , I technically said yes

28:55

, but like surely we're beyond that , and yet I

28:57

don't have the language to articulate

29:00

anything beyond like I felt violated

29:02

, right , so like I don't

29:04

. Like I see , and that's , let's just assume

29:06

that that's authentic and valid and real and

29:09

let's like not diminish it or patronize

29:11

it in any way . In fact , let's orient our

29:13

entire communities around validating the reality

29:16

of that pain and

29:22

right . And if

29:24

we haven't made that jump

29:26

as a community yet and we're still

29:28

using collectively the language of

29:31

assault and crimes , and

29:33

you know , and like rape is this

29:35

kind of crime and comes with this kind of punishment and this

29:37

kind of social approbation and salt is this , and

29:39

you know , then , using the language

29:42

of he assaulted me , right , which , which

29:44

, which is about a crime , will

29:47

and I'm not I hate

29:49

to even come close to even just touching

29:51

on validating defensiveness because

29:54

it's so destructive and it's like the defensiveness

29:56

really is the problem . But I do

29:58

understand the sense of like being like , well

30:00

, no , I did not assault , I

30:03

wasn't attuned , I abdicated my responsibility

30:05

as a leader . I caused harm . I

30:08

didn't assault , right

30:11

, and we don't really like , think about

30:13

it . Like we don't even have this in our lexicon

30:15

, even in super progressive communities , right

30:18

, we don't have a language which is bananas

30:21

to talk about consensual sex that was

30:23

harmful and

30:30

I kind of . And I think we need to , like , I think we need to have that language , yeah , that we can say

30:32

this was really hard and we can treat it seriously , like right . This

30:34

is the other thing like let's not diminish the harm

30:36

because it didn't elevate to the

30:38

level of a crime . Let's

30:40

, in fact , take the harm incredibly

30:43

seriously , even using a

30:45

subjective scale of

30:47

severity . Yeah , right , saying

30:49

like calm is in the eye of the harm to doer , can

30:51

we be present with the fact that this impacted

30:53

this person ? And the fact that it was

30:55

quote , consensual doesn't matter

30:58

. What matters is the harm

31:00

.

31:00

Yeah .

31:02

It's a harder way to live .

31:04

It is , it requires it requires

31:06

more . It requires more presence

31:08

it requires more effort , more labor and

31:11

, as somebody myself

31:14

or anybody else , you who's in a position

31:16

of leadership like it seems like that's a necessary

31:19

part of it . You know , like right now there's

31:21

there's all these different like sex

31:23

workshops people can go to for sexual liberation

31:26

, sexual expansion I'm thinking ISTA

31:28

is one of the main ones that comes to mind and

31:31

I've done ISTA . I've had great experiences

31:33

there . I know other people have had not as good experiences

31:35

there , but I've gone to play parties

31:37

, I've hosted play parties . There's all this stuff

31:39

around sexual liberation and openness

31:41

and also

31:43

this

31:46

conversation I feel like needs to be more

31:49

a part of it . And I look back on some of my previous

31:51

experiences in these spaces and , yes , there was talk

31:53

about consent , but there wasn't as much talk about

31:55

all these different nuances . And I think like , if

31:57

we're really trying to actually advance as

32:00

a sexual society

32:02

, like , this kind of framework needs

32:04

to be in there as well , in addition to the like

32:06

having your wild experiences at the play parties , sure

32:09

, like D shame , all the like puritanical stuff

32:11

that we've been programmed with . And then , how

32:14

do you navigate the reality

32:17

that maybe maybe three of your past partners

32:19

actually felt really shitty after

32:22

they had consensual sex with you .

32:24

You know , like , then , what you

32:26

know yeah

32:28

, and it gets to like are the values

32:30

in this community or in this space that we're holding in this

32:32

play party ? You

32:34

know we are here to avoid legalistic

32:38

crimes against each other . Is

32:40

that our standard , right ? Yeah

32:43

, or is our standard that we're here to um

32:45

, engage in high risk activity ? That

32:48

, right , where all

32:50

of our traumas and triggers are evident and we're literally

32:52

getting naked and doing sexual things with each

32:54

other ? Incredibly

32:57

high risk , right ? High risk , physically sti

32:59

related . High risk around pregnancy

33:02

. High risk around emotional harm , even

33:05

physical harm , and

33:08

like what ? I really honestly

33:10

this is . Again , this is not my original idea . I'm simply

33:13

borrowing the philosophy of

33:15

the drug community , which is harm

33:17

reduction . Right , the progressives in the drug

33:19

community are like this is a high risk activity . We

33:21

aren't going to pretend that we're doing drugs without

33:23

risk . We're going to say this is a high risk activity

33:26

, like rock climbing that we all like to do , and

33:28

and we are going

33:30

to orient ourselves towards preventing

33:33

harm , being hyper educated , right

33:35

, being responsible in our engagement and

33:38

um and acknowledging

33:40

the potential of harm um

33:42

in ways that we might not have been

33:45

able to predict or been able to , you know , easily

33:48

, easily predict um right now , I

33:50

think a lot of what's happening in sex positive

33:52

communities is that it's just like it's

33:54

a . It's a greedy little gold

33:56

rush and we're all in our little trauma responses

33:59

coming from scarcity and trauma and

34:01

insecurity and we're rushing

34:03

at play parties and we're rushing it to ISTA

34:05

and uh other

34:07

neo-chantra experiences , seeking

34:10

peak experiences . And I , I hold myself at this

34:12

too right . Like I , I definitely have been

34:14

consumptive and habitual

34:16

and almost compulsive

34:19

in my in my experiences of sex

34:21

in the past . It's one of the reasons I took a giant step

34:23

back recently . I'm six months celibate as well

34:25

as sober . You know like

34:27

I really do right , because I was going to a sex

34:29

party a week you know what I mean and it was delightful

34:31

and wonderful and cool and like very consensual , but it was

34:33

also like , hmm , kind of too much

34:35

, but like we're

34:38

not . Yeah

34:50

, so we need to actually be in a space of harm reduction and centering the potential

34:52

of harms that we can't predict and getting good at it . And so I think one of

34:54

the ways to be Formula One drivers with a modicum of seatbelts and

34:57

helmets is to be

34:59

really not just consent , educated , which

35:01

still to this day , enthusiastic

35:04

, verbal , non-verbal , everything most

35:07

people when they hear consent is like right , don't be rapey

35:09

, are we good now , totally

35:11

right , or

35:14

most people really , what they hear is don't , don't rate , yeah

35:16

, frankly , yeah , yeah , for sure you don't violently rape

35:18

, and like , no matter of language

35:21

around , consent has , I think , really effectively prevented

35:23

that from still being the thing . This is just the

35:25

obstacle , and the obstacle is like I guess I'm supposed

35:27

to ask , but no one around here is actually asking for

35:29

every step . So there's immediately oh , that's the other thing there's

35:31

immediately hypocrisy , right away

35:34

. Like you know , if you want to come into , like a sex

35:36

positive community right now , yeah , you know what's

35:39

going to happen is you're going to hear a lot of people talking

35:41

about how you need to have explicit consent for

35:43

every step , and then you're going to look around

35:45

and see nobody doing that and you're going to

35:47

immediately have this experience , this embodied experience

35:49

of incoherence , which is traumatizing . Frankly , right

35:51

and and right of like these people don't do

35:53

what they say you're going to do , which is bad . Right

35:56

, trauma , education , one-on-one , you don't want your words

35:58

not to match your actions , right , so

36:00

like , not good , right

36:02

, like we're , we're preaching something that nobody does

36:05

. Right , because you see people like , oh , like

36:07

this person feels comfortable with him , like

36:11

he's a tune right , and then people

36:13

will come in to that community and be like , oh , like

36:15

, is it okay for

36:18

me to do ? Is it not ? Like ? What is what are these rules

36:20

? Nobody gets it .

36:21

Yeah , um yeah , there's

36:23

a couple of different directions we could go from this point . It's

36:25

super rich conversation . There's , there's . I

36:27

was listening to a different podcast of yours earlier

36:29

. Uh , in preparation for this conversation and

36:32

because I think this material is so interesting and you said

36:34

something that that resonated with me

36:36

, at least , I'll just bring it personally

36:38

for a moment . My own experience in community

36:40

. I think you said , um , when

36:43

, or maybe it was a mentor of yours that

36:45

said something to the effect of as a

36:47

leader , you know , when this person

36:50

lets their guard down , other

36:52

people have to put their guard up

36:55

in a certain way , and so like

36:57

.

36:57

So I'm thinking , I'm thinking so last night

36:59

.

36:59

right , I'll just use my life as an example . Last

37:01

night I went to an ecstatic dance in Asheville

37:04

. I love ecstatic dance . I play in a live

37:06

music ecstatic dance band . Like it's a great way for me

37:08

to feel free , emotionally free

37:10

, physically free in my body . I also love dancing

37:12

with different people . I love dancing with men , with women

37:15

. I love sometimes exploring flirtatious

37:17

, uh , sensual energy

37:19

in the space as well . And

37:21

also , like last night , the

37:23

, the I was just I was thinking

37:25

more like what is my impact in this space

37:27

? You know , like what do I want to have happen here

37:29

? While I was dancing and I was like man , I really

37:32

just want to feel like free in my body

37:34

and I would like shake around and do all this stuff

37:36

. And I'm aware , like I'm a relatively bigger guy

37:38

, I'm tall , like I'm strong , I have status

37:41

in this particular community and I'm like I'm

37:43

sure I'm having impact on people that I can't even

37:45

imagine right now . And

37:48

like I'm there was this like real

37:50

big desire internally to just totally

37:53

let fucking go , you know , and like go

37:55

nuts , and but

37:57

then , like I was realizing , well , if

38:00

I do that to that extreme , like

38:02

it's certainly going to make other people kind of shrink

38:04

down a little bit or feel something . You

38:07

know , there's gotta be some balance

38:09

point there , or is there ? And I did figure

38:11

out there are ways I could get that experience in my

38:13

body . Uh , that felt good

38:15

in the space , at least for me , and I think

38:17

had a , you know , net positive impact on the space

38:19

. But it's something that I was just like , yeah

38:22

, I was just aware of . So when I heard you say that

38:24

this morning , I'm like , oh yeah , like

38:26

I recognize the desire to be wild and

38:28

free and liberated and also , as

38:31

this particular person , like what is the net impact

38:34

of that on space ? And then what

38:36

will the ripple effect of that be

38:38

? You know , yeah , yeah

38:40

.

38:41

Yeah , I love that you brought that up and I'm

38:43

grateful for you for using

38:45

your own life right Like , yeah

38:47

. So that was very much Angel

38:50

Adioja , my one

38:52

of my mentors and supervisors . They

38:55

, they , they say yeah . When

38:58

people in power and traditionally kind

39:00

of centered people let their guard

39:02

down , it's often the case that others have to put

39:04

theirs up . Well

39:06

, let's take the shame out of this . Everybody , right , just

39:08

because you're a white guy , listen , this doesn't mean that you have

39:10

to like now , like , be ashamed or like just

39:13

none of that right ? The

39:16

point is , as another one of my mentors

39:18

said one time , that the

39:21

idea of a space in which you

39:23

don't have to think about your own power

39:25

and the responsibility that comes with it is

39:27

a I think

39:30

they put it , they said it's a white supremacist wet

39:32

dream . You

39:34

know it's , it's . It's a conceit . It's

39:36

a conceit that we could ever set down

39:38

our influence and our power . It's

39:41

a conceit and it's a very , very

39:43

conveniently self-serving one . Right

39:45

, where right , in fact , I , I know

39:47

that for myself . Right , I had to get checked on this right

39:49

because I would go to these private , intimate

39:52

play parties , mostly with people that I knew and trusted

39:54

and that I knew , knew me , you know , and

39:56

my story was oh no , these are the places where

39:58

I can let my hair down , these are the places where I can

40:00

be like loud and obnoxious and

40:02

exhibitionistic and really take up all

40:04

the space in the room and be you know , and

40:07

not have to think about power . And in fact

40:09

it's actually healthy . It's

40:11

good for everybody around me for me to have

40:13

those spaces so I can let off that steam and there I

40:15

can bring my power , aware self to my professional

40:18

life , right , right . So I told myself

40:20

a narrative that it was actually good for the world for

40:22

me to have those spaces , and

40:24

I think it's wonderful for

40:27

people to have spaces in which they can be themselves

40:29

. But I don't think

40:31

that that necessarily translates that now you don't

40:33

have to . Now you get to . Now

40:36

you get to be free of thinking about power . Now

40:38

you get free of thinking about consent . I've seen this in

40:40

my clients too . They're like , well , I thought we'd establish

40:42

consent , I thought I could just be myself . Now , you

40:45

know , I thought like , since she kind of indicated

40:47

that she was cool , like I thought I could just , you know , gonna

40:50

, you know , maybe smoke my joint

40:52

and like not have to think about attunement

40:54

anymore , because it's kind of a burden Totally

40:56

To

40:59

constantly be attuning to other people . It's so much

41:01

nicer to just kind of say whatever the hell I feel , like

41:03

, and wait , you know , really , you know , make sure that

41:06

I'm with people who trust me , but , like , just say whatever I

41:08

feel . And I found that that's not true . I've

41:10

just found that there is no place where , like

41:12

, people won't be affected by

41:14

you . Even your deepest friends will be affected by

41:16

shit . You say , even the people that you love the

41:19

most and maybe who share identity

41:21

, privilege identities with you , right , other cis , straight

41:24

white guys with you , know you can still hurt them

41:26

. You know , like , totally , you

41:28

know you can say really , cutting , undermining things

41:30

and , um , yeah

41:33

, like there is , there is no space and

41:35

there shouldn't be right and we shouldn't be waiting to find

41:37

it in which we don't have to think about

41:40

our influence and our power . But doesn't mean that you

41:42

can't dance , or even dance cool

41:44

and crazy , right , but like , even as you're dancing crazy

41:46

in the ecstatic space , like , be

41:49

aware of your surroundings , right , like , oh

41:51

, like , am I making everybody around me

41:53

stand way back ? And if I

41:56

am , am , like , am I occupying

41:58

that kind of center , right , this is . I used to be in the

42:00

house dance world , right , and it's like , if you're going to be

42:02

the guy who's like moving your body and

42:04

creating space and almost like creating the cipher

42:06

around you , then like , okay

42:09

, but own that space , do

42:11

your dance , be expressed , and

42:13

then be attuned to the collective

42:16

and move out of it so that other people can

42:18

win . In fact , you can even use your loudness

42:20

to empower other people and

42:22

people will have this overall impression of you as

42:25

not like unattuned mr guy

42:27

who needs all the attention on him all the time , which turns

42:29

everybody off , but like , oh , this guy like

42:31

created the cypher , like instigated some

42:33

cool vibes , energies , and then knew , right

42:36

, he could attune to the collective and

42:38

knew when to pass the mic right

42:41

and you went like , yeah , yeah , so

42:43

this is so .

42:44

I think I want to sort of riff on this dance thing

42:46

for a little bit , because it's such a , it's such an interesting

42:48

microcosm of society , right

42:51

like in non-verbal space where people are interacting

42:53

with movement . You can clearly

42:55

see , just to preface , also

42:57

in the dances around here there's the agreement

42:59

you're not going to stare , you're not going to watch people , but

43:02

people still witness the space . People

43:05

still see the impact that different people have

43:07

on each other , and you can see that some

43:09

people have very clear patterns of impact

43:11

in the space , like

43:14

some people

43:16

move around the space and try to interact

43:18

with people in a way that , like , doesn't

43:20

necessarily feel the greatest for other

43:22

people . So there's kind of like this bubble

43:24

that expands around them wherever they go

43:26

and people like , oh , I'm just going to slowly move away from this

43:29

person , but they're not actually violating

43:31

consent . You know they're not doing something

43:33

wrong , but the vibe is

43:35

a little bit iffy , whereas

43:58

there are other people and this is part of where my curiosity goes there are other people who seem like they can embody this sort of almost like a generative seeding

44:00

the space with positivity and connection

44:03

, and they leave a positive impact with whoever they dance with . Even if they're dancing what somebody would label as sexually , somehow they're doing it in a way

44:05

that that feels like

44:07

it has integrity , you know , and it doesn't

44:09

seem to negatively impact the space as much

44:11

.

44:11

It's just super , super interesting

44:14

but you're talking about energy , yeah , and

44:16

to me , like a conversation about power

44:18

, harm and consent , that ends

44:20

up in the conversation around energy

44:22

and attunement is a good one right , like , so I'm really

44:24

happy that we , that we arrive here , like I always try

44:26

to , it's

44:29

important to acknowledge the degree to

44:31

which the esoteric energies , the kind of

44:33

the ineffable , the difficult to describe

44:35

energies that we carry with us , impact the

44:37

people around us . And again and

44:39

again , I've read , I've read like restorative justice

44:41

reports and like accounts that

44:43

are all very like , formal , when , like

44:45

the , what the reports consist of is like , his

44:48

energy was so creepy , I

44:51

can't point to it exactly and technically I did

44:53

consent , but god , it just made me feel

44:55

so gross the next day . Yeah

44:57

, you know , and like , oh , you

45:00

know , so , like , and people . So we're trying

45:02

, we're in good faith , we're trying to put to

45:04

words what is like the

45:06

ineffable right , the , the , that which cannot really

45:09

fully be named , and so there

45:11

are , um , there's science

45:14

to attunement . There is , you know , there's , there's

45:16

uh , proprioception

45:19

, like an awareness of our body in space and kinesthetic

45:21

awareness , awareness of what your body is doing . There's

45:23

um , uh , there's

45:27

the ability , without getting into too many other terms

45:29

, there's the ability for us to like attune to

45:31

, uh , where

45:33

my energy is really being welcomed

45:36

and invited , based on your body language and

45:38

the body language around me , and like really tuning in , like

45:40

, oh , this person , this person had like a little

45:42

bit of an uncomfortable vibe , so I'm going to give them a little bit

45:44

more space and maybe not look at them and

45:46

maybe like move away , or I'm going to like

45:48

slow my movements down to be less like energetically

45:52

and unattuned to the people around me . And

46:03

, at its best , ecstatic dance is an incredible petri dish laboratory for witnessing , not just like like

46:05

I think a lot of people come to it originally for like radical self-expression , but where it really is

46:07

is like this is an attunement lab . You

46:09

know , and like , if you're

46:12

not already incredibly good at this , and I

46:14

hold myself very , very gently

46:16

as someone who is still learning- yeah

46:18

you know , like I like to think I'm attuned , but

46:20

like I'm still always in the process

46:22

of inquiry and very much in the process

46:25

of observing people who are really

46:27

good at it , sometimes naturally , sometimes

46:29

as a result of a lot of practice and skill , of

46:31

like sensing into the people around them and

46:34

like raising the vibes or

46:36

doing their own thing in a way that feels like generative

46:38

. Yeah

46:41

, so like yeah

46:43

, yes to that . And if you're confused about

46:45

this , go go to ecstatic dance or go

46:47

to some dance and notice , like

46:49

start observing what is that , what is

46:51

that ? And really you start with yourself , like , how do

46:53

I feel in this person's presence ? How

46:55

do I feel in this person's presence ? How do I feel in that person's

46:58

presence ? Like , how did that person make ? Like , did they make me feel

47:00

comfortable ? Did they make me feel excited to dance more

47:02

? Did I ? Did I feel turned off ?

47:06

Totally yeah . And also , just to be clear , like I'm not sitting here saying

47:08

that you listener

47:11

or viewer on YouTube shouldn't

47:13

go dance sensually or sexually

47:15

or powerfully with people . I just like

47:17

wanting to bring awareness to all the

47:19

all the layers of everything

47:21

and I'd like to like shift into

47:23

a possibly a practical

47:26

lens . Let's say , for example

47:28

, there's a guy , he

47:30

comes to you , he says , hey

47:32

, I've gotten these . There's

47:35

, like you know , five or six reports

47:37

from these different women who've said

47:40

you know , like you

47:44

didn't violate my consent , but like

47:46

I feel awkward

47:49

and uncomfortable around you and I feel like I've been harmed

47:51

from our experience somehow

47:53

. And then this

47:55

guy says , well , it's

47:57

not my fault , like I didn't violate your consent , etc

48:00

. Like what do you

48:02

? What do you ? What would you say in that

48:05

space ?

48:06

yeah , I mean the the part

48:09

of the inquiry right , and

48:12

I'll just I'll just name first of all that , like when I work

48:14

with men , this is important , this is I'm gonna , I'm I'm

48:16

going to be tangential and go on a

48:18

slight divergent tangent

48:20

here , but only because it's important to

48:22

answer the full question . I promise I will get back to it , cool . The

48:26

first thing I want to say is that I am

48:28

not a proto-feminist

48:31

wrist slap for white dudes

48:33

. What does that

48:35

mean ? I come from a place of love

48:37

, like my work in the world is

48:40

to support mostly

48:42

cis , straight white guys to be their full

48:44

, loving selves and make the contribution they're

48:47

here to make . I am not here to punish . I'm

48:49

not here to condemn . I'm not here to even

48:51

inadvertently , kind of use the language

48:54

of restorative justice to punish or condemn . I

48:56

am here because I love

48:58

men , because I'm honored to

49:00

play this role , and so , like , the first

49:02

thing I would do is is

49:05

is create the trust energy

49:07

with this man that I see him right

49:11

and that

49:13

I accept that he isn't

49:15

trying to cause harm . I

49:18

accept even that part

49:20

right and

49:28

I might inquire with him about his relationship to harm and about his relationship

49:30

to his ability to cause harm and we might , in that process , start

49:33

to uncover some of the maybe we'll call them structures of knowing

49:35

right , might

49:42

maybe we'll call them structures of knowing right . That right , such as , so long as

49:44

I didn't violate consent , there is no viable valid claim

49:46

of harm possible

49:48

. It's a big one , right , which

49:52

is a very understandable

49:54

structure of knowing to receive from the society

49:56

because our legal system

49:58

asserts it . Yep

50:00

, right , our legal system

50:02

does not have a crime for

50:04

creepy vibes . Right

50:07

, our legal system

50:09

does not have a crime for sex

50:11

. That is regretted . Both

50:14

of those things can cause a lot of harm , right

50:17

, both of those things can cause a lot

50:19

of harm , right , um , so I I start with an inquiry around

50:22

his relationship to harm . Well

50:24

, and yes , like , sometimes , like that you know , childhood

50:26

stuff comes up , his relationship to you know and

50:29

um , defensiveness whenever

50:31

they come up . But , like , ultimately

50:34

, what we try to get to in this kind of first , first

50:36

wave of work will be a

50:38

sense of his own standards of integrity

50:40

, his own values and , specifically

50:43

, how it's important to him to

50:45

conduct himself in the world . Is

50:47

it important to me that

50:50

the women I interact with feel

50:52

good about my interactions with them . You

50:55

know , or is it important to me simply

50:57

just to avoid raping ? You

51:00

know , it's like all's fair in love and war

51:02

. I , you know

51:05

, I'm a rational actor in a capitalist

51:07

, cutthroat society and so long as I don't violate

51:09

the law I'm good . And

51:12

you might think that there's a lot of guys like that . But

51:16

I have been happily surprised

51:18

to see that they're like and maybe

51:20

this is a obviously there's a filtration bias

51:22

here of like the only kind of guys who would come to me but

51:24

like most guys don't come to me of their

51:26

own volition . Most guys come to me because they're

51:28

pressured to frankly , but

51:31

when I really investigate with them , they want to be contributions

51:33

in the world . They don't want to cause harm . They don't want women to regret their interactions with

51:35

them . They want to be contributions in the world . They don't want

51:37

to cause harm . They don't want women to regret their

51:39

interactions with them . They don't want to create those waves

51:42

, even if it's only because

51:44

they realize that that's going to negatively impact their

51:46

prospects in their various communities

51:48

and their professional lives etc . But

51:51

generally also because they , you

51:54

know , I know they're men , but boy do we have empathy

51:56

, boy do we have compassion . We just don't know how to wield

51:58

our power yeah and it's hard

52:00

because we also have raging hormones

52:03

and testosterone and we have a deep-seated

52:05

psychological or sociological , uh

52:07

, imperative to

52:10

initiate and you know there's there's all kinds

52:12

of masculine , feminine polarity stuff

52:14

and , like the , the fear of being a cuck

52:16

or beta or whatever you know . You know

52:18

, um , maybe

52:21

gen z can tell you on their comments if those terms

52:23

are still relevant . But

52:25

uh , but yeah , I start with , I start with compassion

52:27

, I start and end with compassion and I start and end

52:29

with the inquiry into harm

52:31

. But generally the path is to , like

52:33

, get to the place where

52:36

the man can see that he was violating

52:38

his own standards of integrity in those behaviors . Right

52:41

, get him to see

52:43

that this isn't the woke police

52:45

, this isn't the woke

52:48

mob or the cancel mobs coming after him

52:50

, this isn't feminism run amok , this

52:52

is him acting

52:54

out of his own integrity . But oftentimes

52:56

it takes some time to see that . But

52:58

once you do , it's a lot stronger

53:01

a foundation than just

53:03

slapping him into

53:05

conformity with a set

53:07

of standards that he still , that at his core

53:09

he still believes are externally imposed

53:12

by

53:14

the woke police . Right

53:16

, and I use that term with

53:20

a lot of intention , that's how a lot of people think . That's

53:22

how a lot of them especially think . For sure . So

53:24

I have to be cognizant

53:26

of that dynamic . But yeah , does

53:29

that answer the question ?

53:31

No , I think it does and I think it's really important . I like

53:33

how you humanize it , because I see

53:35

something in the field and

53:38

noticed myself like having certain

53:40

judgmental qualities , characteristics sometimes

53:43

, where it's like , oh , this person did this thing

53:45

, they're bad , you know , or

53:47

or cancel , even if I don't want to cancel

53:49

them , I'm like cut them out , you know , danger

53:51

, dehumanize , like that sort of

53:53

a thing , and I think for

53:56

some people , especially people

53:58

who have experienced the harm , perhaps that's a useful strategy

54:00

for them to create safety , you know , in their

54:02

life .

54:03

And also like in the context

54:05

of being somebody who's helping somebody to

54:08

sort of right the wrongs

54:10

or like heal the harm , like it's

54:12

gotta , there's gotta be a meeting

54:14

on a human level , you know , and yeah , and

54:17

I mean I , I , I think it's gotta , there's gotta be a meeting on a human level

54:19

, you know , and yeah , and I mean I , I I think it's huh

54:21

, I

54:23

think what you're , what you're saying , is really important and

54:26

I I really like that you're naming it , um

54:29

, from both the perspective

54:31

of someone who's a directly experienced harm , like

54:33

, say , a survivor , but also from the perspective

54:36

of someone who's maybe a third party observer

54:38

, like what you're talking about you being right

54:40

I'm a guy's friend , I'm in

54:43

the same dance community as him or

54:45

right , like , I am her friend , right

54:48

, and that's the majority of us right . The

54:50

majority of the roles that we play are not harm

54:53

doer or victim . They're observer , they're

54:56

person impacted by what these other

54:58

two people did , and

55:00

it's really easy to judge . So

55:03

here's a framing that I think

55:05

is really useful . If all

55:07

of us are especially your audience , I

55:09

imagine are really on board with

55:11

a collective social

55:15

or or societal project

55:17

of sexual liberation , yeah

55:20

, let's go there Then I

55:23

invite us to also simultaneously

55:26

embark on a project of

55:28

decolonizing

55:31

our minds around justice . What

55:33

does that mean ? It means

55:35

not thinking in terms

55:37

of there are objective

55:40

standards of harm that correspond

55:42

to the objective standards of crime . It

55:45

means understanding that harm is subjective . Right

55:47

, it means not insisting on

55:50

every harm being

55:52

something that needs a right to a fair trial . We've

55:54

seen that that does not work for sexual assault right

55:57

. Right that , like

55:59

it , will never result

56:01

in any kind of justice or healing for our

56:03

community . Right that we can't

56:05

be cops with each other . Right

56:08

that we are not equipped to

56:10

investigate each other , that

56:13

demanding an investigation

56:16

be done in the context of quote

56:18

accusations itself is

56:20

harmful . Right that

56:23

approaching interpersonal

56:25

uh disputes

56:28

or interpersonal harm , especially

56:31

within the context of community , of intentional community , through

56:33

the lens of a judicial mindset , of a

56:35

litigious mindset of well , I should have the right to face my accuser . I should have the lens of a judicial mindset , of a litigious mindset of well

56:38

, I should have the right to face my accuser . I should have the right

56:40

to a fair and speedy trial . I should have the right to have

56:42

evidence presented against me . You

56:44

know I should have the right to a lawyer and an advocate

56:47

. You know , and this person should be . You know

56:49

I should know exactly who

56:51

they are . None of that applies . None

56:53

of that is safe . None of that is how

56:55

a good community can

56:57

function . Why ? Because all

56:59

of those systems might be

57:02

a decent way to run a country , but they're not a

57:04

good way to run community , and we tend to

57:06

recreate judicial systems

57:08

within community and we run tribunals

57:11

and we exert judgment on each other and

57:15

, frankly , none of it works . So when I talk about decolonizing

57:18

our sense of justice , I'm talking about all

57:20

what I just said , right , and and

57:22

also what you mentioned of not

57:25

of training ourselves , literally training

57:27

ourselves . This is the process of decolonization . We have to train ourselves

57:29

not to jump to conclusions when we hear someone did

57:31

harm , right . I mean , how many of your listeners

57:34

dismissed me when I said that I'd done this harmful

57:36

thing 15 years ago ? Right , yeah

57:39

, I mean and you know , god bless , like I'm not going to insist

57:41

that you accept me , but like , what

57:44

does it mean ? Like to or like ? I

57:46

hate it when people try to answer questions with questions . So

57:49

I'll try to be more specific . Um

57:51

, we

57:54

have to train ourselves not to assume

57:56

that someone's bad when we hear that they did harm . And

58:01

that often starts with us , with training

58:03

ourselves not to think that we are bad when

58:05

we've done harm Right

58:08

. We have to train ourselves to be like I

58:10

did a harmful thing and

58:14

I'm still a good person . Right

58:16

, I did a harmful thing and

58:19

all you know , and I can

58:21

and I have the ability to , to be with it

58:23

, to be present to it , to be present to the consequences

58:25

of it . You know it's incredibly

58:28

brave and in , and we all have

58:30

to still exist in our hyper litigious

58:32

, cutthroat capitalistic

58:34

society too . So , like we can't pretend

58:37

that that's not around us or pretend that that's

58:39

not the soup we're all swimming in and what

58:41

we're bringing into our little

58:44

ecstatic dance enclaves . You know

58:46

we are , we are bringing that world in . So

58:48

we have to consciously be um

58:50

, in the process constantly of , of

58:53

, of , uh , kind

58:55

of liberating our minds from

58:57

that perspective . And it doesn't . And what's

58:59

great about that is that when we do

59:01

as we do , we find space

59:03

for compassion for people who have done harm

59:05

, space for nuance , deep

59:08

space for healing for the people who

59:10

have experienced harm but might not have experienced

59:12

a crime . Right , I think it's really

59:14

important . This is a survivor centric model , like

59:16

, like

59:20

, just because he didn't commit a crime doesn't mean that you're not harmed , doesn't mean

59:22

that you're not traumatized , doesn't mean that there aren't

59:24

consequences that need to happen in order to make you safe

59:26

, in order to support your healing . Crimes

59:30

don't have to be a present for

59:32

us to really take things seriously Anyway

59:35

.

59:36

Yeah , I really like how you just spoke to that , because

59:38

I imagine there are a lot of people out there who

59:40

have experienced harmful scenarios

59:42

with somebody and

59:44

they can't really pinpoint

59:47

the specific thing and

59:49

so they feel maybe isolated

59:51

or scared or frustrated and shut

59:53

down and unsure how

59:55

to proceed . And it's almost this

59:57

form of possibly possibly even self

1:00:00

gaslighting that can happen , where

1:00:02

, like , maybe there's just something wrong with me or

1:00:04

I don't know what . Something's just weird about it

1:00:07

. But like , I like how you're .

1:00:09

Well , and gaslighting from the community , right . Like

1:00:11

like a lot of a lot of I've seen

1:00:13

survivors friends will like kind of try to like

1:00:15

ask questions that get to whether

1:00:17

or not assault was committed , and

1:00:19

they'll either convince the person that assault

1:00:22

was committed when it wasn't , which

1:00:24

is also destructive , right , or

1:00:28

they'll be like , well , it

1:00:31

sounds like it wasn't that big a deal

1:00:33

, or rather , it sounds like it technically wasn't

1:00:35

assault , so like , like you know

1:00:37

, so deal with it

1:00:39

, that'll happen . Well , yeah , we'll deal with it , right . Like

1:00:42

both of which are really really destructive . It's really important

1:00:44

with anybody just to be present to their

1:00:46

experience yeah you know , um

1:00:49

, and especially if they're , if they're feeling really harmed

1:00:51

, to be present , to present to their

1:00:54

experience and the and the work especially

1:00:56

like , because a lot of people who have done harm then

1:00:58

themselves get called out and feel harmed . So

1:01:01

I it's tricky

1:01:04

, tricky , tricky industry . I

1:01:07

think it's also important , like there's such

1:01:09

nuance in helping someone who is

1:01:11

feeling really indignant and defensive

1:01:13

at the nature of their call out to like

1:01:16

relax into what , what

1:01:19

accountability there is there for them to

1:01:21

take , um

1:01:23

, and that's why I mean

1:01:25

I've dedicated my , my career to doing

1:01:27

that well and to doing that effectively , and it's super

1:01:30

, super hard .

1:01:31

That's super , super hard , Like I've

1:01:33

witnessed a number of folks over the years

1:01:35

uh , get sort of publicly called out

1:01:38

on Facebook or something , and

1:01:40

I have seen

1:01:42

their nervous systems just go

1:01:44

totally into fight or flight , you know

1:01:46

, and like get completely overwhelmed

1:01:48

. And I guess I will

1:01:51

just empathize for a moment in the sense

1:01:53

of like I imagine hundreds

1:01:55

of years ago or even prior to

1:01:57

Facebook , like you would never

1:01:59

have a situation where , all of a sudden , there's 500

1:02:02

people saying like horrible things

1:02:04

about you all at once . Like you would probably be in

1:02:06

a community with maybe 20 people or

1:02:09

some smaller amount of people around you , ideally

1:02:11

in person , talking to you about this

1:02:13

thing . So , like the reality of the online call

1:02:15

out who knows right ? I guess I'm just

1:02:17

thinking .

1:02:18

I'm not , I'm not , not sure . Actually , public public shaming

1:02:20

is a tried and true technique and it's been

1:02:22

destructive for thousands of years . Fair

1:02:25

fair .

1:02:26

I just yeah . So I just I guess I'm just sort

1:02:28

of thinking out loud about this , like the

1:02:30

I guess you said

1:02:32

somebody causes harm and

1:02:35

then they get accused or

1:02:37

they it's , it's brought to light that they've caused

1:02:40

harm and then they feel harmed in the process

1:02:42

, right , like and and

1:02:44

so that , like

1:02:46

I just I guess I question

1:02:49

, like is empathy for

1:02:51

them feeling harmed , a useful step

1:02:53

in them getting to the point where they can realize

1:02:56

that they've harmed somebody else ? Do

1:02:58

you know what I mean by ?

1:02:58

that . I mean , I think that's a very legitimate question

1:03:01

. Um , I I think I think I'll start

1:03:03

with by saying , huh , uh

1:03:06

, you know , I am

1:03:09

generally a believer in public

1:03:12

. Like adjudicating this kind of stuff in public

1:03:14

as a not

1:03:17

last resort sounds too judgy , but

1:03:20

like as a a

1:03:22

step that really needs to be taken with a lot

1:03:24

of uh , a

1:03:27

lot of careful awareness and especially

1:03:30

, usually not as a first

1:03:32

step , like if you've , if you haven't , tried

1:03:34

talking to someone , if you've never literally tried

1:03:36

saying to someone um , um , hey

1:03:39

, this hurt me and it's safe for you

1:03:41

to do so , and that you've got support to

1:03:43

do so , then that's something that I

1:03:45

think it's important to to name

1:03:47

is is

1:03:50

ideal , and I'll say that

1:03:52

like a lot of times that men who get called out

1:03:54

, it's not because the

1:03:57

person calling them out like

1:03:59

was so callous as to not consider

1:04:01

talking to them directly . It's usually because there

1:04:03

was some degree to which

1:04:05

the man getting

1:04:08

called out created a

1:04:10

very clear impression that he was not

1:04:13

going to be receptive to Right

1:04:15

. So oftentimes when I work with a man who's been called

1:04:17

out , I say , oh well , I can see two harms

1:04:20

right away . There's whatever you're accused of doing and

1:04:22

there is the way that you've been such

1:04:25

that nobody in your community felt like you would take

1:04:27

it well when they told you directly .

1:04:31

Yeah .

1:04:32

Right , which is that you've been projecting defensiveness

1:04:34

. You've been projecting defensiveness . You've

1:04:36

been projecting a , an opposition or

1:04:39

or a high potential

1:04:41

likelihood of gaslighting If

1:04:43

you were to receive feedback . You have maybe received

1:04:45

feedback and dismissed it . You have maybe received

1:04:47

feedback and been callous

1:04:49

about it , especially

1:04:52

feedback that's come as like a , a consistent pattern , especially

1:04:55

feedback that's common , so

1:04:57

like a consistent pattern , and I mean

1:04:59

and there's nuance here . You know , like , especially if you're

1:05:01

a leader , like

1:05:04

I'm sure you lead classes , like you might get some feedback . That's

1:05:06

kind of like you know what . I'm taking this feedback

1:05:08

and I'm going to not listen to it . Like I

1:05:10

think that I teach fine and like 90% people

1:05:12

love it . One person out of a hundred

1:05:14

was like I

1:05:21

don't like your teaching style .

1:05:21

okay , well , okay , but that doesn't mean I'm gonna like radically shift my teaching style because you know it's like

1:05:23

you have to be . There's nuance here , right , yeah , but if 10 people said the same thing independently

1:05:26

, like that's worth looking at exactly

1:05:28

there's right .

1:05:29

So the the energy here is

1:05:31

not one side

1:05:33

or another , it's it's discerning right . There's

1:05:35

just skill and discernment . It's part of the leadership , it's

1:05:38

part of being a good leader is being able to discern . Oh

1:05:40

shit , what is there for me to see ? And

1:05:43

um , I

1:05:45

think that I think and

1:05:47

this , this needs to be mentioned being

1:05:52

publicly canceled is a trauma . It

1:05:56

is no-transcript

1:06:16

Ostracization is akin to death psychologically

1:06:19

. You know , like um

1:06:21

, and not for nothing . But I've had three

1:06:24

past clients , um , kill themselves or

1:06:26

overdose . I've had four past

1:06:28

clients , um , x , like , exile

1:06:30

themselves from their communities and completely start over

1:06:32

um because they couldn't

1:06:34

deal with the

1:06:37

um , with the intensity

1:06:39

of their ostracization . And so , like I

1:06:41

don't like part oh , here's another part

1:06:43

part of decolonizing ourselves around

1:06:45

. Justice is not believing in punishment , and

1:06:49

this is a really tough one , right like , yeah , if

1:06:52

you right , if you're a prison abolitionist , you got to really embrace

1:06:54

some really tough stuff . Right , because

1:06:56

your instinct will be like he hurt her , punish

1:06:59

him . Right and be justified . Right

1:07:01

, I'm righteous in my quest for punishment for

1:07:03

him . Right and

1:07:05

right . So , like is the call-out a

1:07:07

natural consequence of him ignoring every

1:07:10

single like ? Is there a group of his friends

1:07:12

who have come to him and been like dude , you really need to change , you need

1:07:14

to look at this . And he's been like fuck you guys

1:07:16

. You know , it's like the call out is the last resort

1:07:19

. We're going to call them out . They haven't changed

1:07:21

. Like is to just got a big call out , like I get it . You

1:07:23

know , like this organization was not shifting

1:07:25

right and this is I'm saying this is someone , it is

1:07:27

a client , right then , just full disclosure

1:07:29

, um , and that's uh public

1:07:31

knowledge .

1:07:32

Uh , like I

1:07:35

let me just like riff on that for a moment , cause I think

1:07:37

that is , that is such that is

1:07:39

one of the most important pieces . I remember

1:07:41

a conversation previous podcast I had

1:07:43

with puppy on a therapist who works with

1:07:45

sexual assault survivors . We

1:07:47

didn't go into as many nuances around

1:07:50

the harm piece , but what he

1:07:52

said was that in talking with all of the

1:07:54

victims , the people who've experienced

1:07:56

harm , none

1:08:06

of them wanted to go public Like , none of them wanted to really like call out or that sort of a thing

1:08:09

. And if people did something like that , it was basically a last resort

1:08:11

because the feedback that they

1:08:13

had given or the harm that they had expressed wasn't

1:08:16

received well and it was met with a wall or

1:08:18

defensiveness or gaslighting or something

1:08:20

like that . And I think that's so , so , so

1:08:22

fucking important .

1:08:23

It's so important and even if

1:08:26

I won't say anybody deserves

1:08:28

it , but even if it was the logical

1:08:30

consequence of

1:08:32

a woman who had both felt harmed , didn't

1:08:34

feel like , didn't like , saw that the

1:08:36

guy wasn't going to take the feedback , saw

1:08:38

that there was , that there was , there

1:08:40

was ongoing danger , which

1:08:43

tends to be like the real rationale , like the person's

1:08:45

going to rape another person , he's going to do this

1:08:47

again . I'm calling him out publicly and

1:08:49

warning other people about him because I think that he's going

1:08:51

to do it again . Yeah , even

1:08:54

then it's

1:08:57

still harmful and

1:09:00

I don't mean , oh , this is real . I don't

1:09:02

mean that it's not valid , but let's

1:09:04

be . Can we just all take a deep

1:09:06

breath and be with that nuance ?

1:09:11

Yeah , it makes me think

1:09:13

and question , is

1:09:16

it ? It

1:09:18

is so nuanced in my mind

1:09:21

I'm like , yeah it , maybe it is harmful and

1:09:23

also , is it a net

1:09:25

positive in terms of overall

1:09:28

harm reduced ? You know , Sure .

1:09:29

And it and it may be and like , people

1:09:32

can do that calculation and people will debate it and

1:09:34

know , and there will never be a full agreement

1:09:36

within the community . There'll be his

1:09:38

friends who are like fuck you guys for calling him out . There'll be

1:09:40

, like everybody else who's like , yeah , kind of felt like it was

1:09:42

necessary , I'm glad he did his growth work . And there'll be people

1:09:44

who are like he's never done enough . He

1:09:46

should just chop off his cock and never

1:09:48

come back . You know , and like shit

1:09:51

gets real right and like . And

1:09:53

I also don't think that , like , I think it's a dangerous

1:09:55

naivete to think that people aren't motivated

1:09:58

in part by vengeance , in part by the desire to punish

1:10:00

and by the desire to um

1:10:03

equalize the playing field , in part by the

1:10:05

desire to um very

1:10:07

reasonably like correct for

1:10:09

millennia of

1:10:11

gender-based uh , inequality

1:10:14

and gender-based harm , um

1:10:16

to radically

1:10:18

distrust men in power , myself included , um

1:10:21

to and and very reasonably

1:10:23

so . So , like I don't think that anything

1:10:25

is simple of these things are simple . I don't

1:10:27

come down into a can't like

1:10:29

anti-cancel culture camp

1:10:32

or a pro-cancel culture camp . Um

1:10:34

, I invite nuance , I invite the

1:10:36

, the you know and like , and

1:10:38

I like this is this is coming from and I think , feel

1:10:40

very confident saying this like , even

1:10:42

like and I am friends

1:10:45

and in community with a lot of victims advocates , like

1:10:47

people

1:10:51

do harm in the process of surviving , harm

1:10:53

all the time , the

1:11:01

time , and if you've ever been friends with someone who has experienced

1:11:03

a rape trauma , then you might have also experienced them being them lashing

1:11:05

out at you and

1:11:07

that's real . Um , it

1:11:10

doesn't . I like I'm

1:11:12

not making that point . To make a point besides

1:11:15

inviting us to sit with the nuance

1:11:18

and complexity of harm and of the

1:11:20

ripple effects . I'm not saying anybody's

1:11:22

good or bad or righteous or not .

1:11:24

Yeah , or they should or shouldn't do that thing

1:11:26

, it's just , thank you .

1:11:27

Yes , no , I'm not saying that Like I'm

1:11:29

God , I really try to avoid normatives

1:11:31

, you know , like I've tried to avoid

1:11:34

shoulds . I invite us , I

1:11:40

invite us , I invite us to consider the harm of all of our actions , including going to a sex

1:11:42

party when you , like , are noticing yourself

1:11:44

in a compulsive pattern of hunting . Including

1:11:48

going to an ecstatic dance when you notice yourself as

1:11:50

like hunting for the hot women and

1:11:52

then like going directly beeline into them

1:11:54

and then going to the next one . Like I

1:11:56

invite us to consider and

1:11:58

notice , you know . So

1:12:01

yeah , yeah . No judgment

1:12:03

.

1:12:04

No , really no judgment . This

1:12:06

is . This is such an interesting conversation

1:12:08

, Um , I want to keep going just for a little

1:12:10

bit longer , cause there's some pieces I want to bring in

1:12:12

.

1:12:13

Uh rock and roll . Thank you , thank you for this

1:12:15

.

1:12:15

So the it seems like

1:12:17

one of the prerequisites for

1:12:20

growth and actual healing and

1:12:22

change and and repair is

1:12:25

that we'll just use

1:12:27

like , like the man

1:12:29

, like you work with men , like the man needs

1:12:31

to want to

1:12:33

understand right

1:12:35

. Ultimately , it seems like the man will

1:12:37

need to be able to hear

1:12:40

and receive feedback without getting defensive

1:12:42

, like ultimately maybe

1:12:45

.

1:12:45

I don't know what would you say to that Like ideally

1:12:47

, but like one of one of one of

1:12:49

the parts of doing my work , is

1:12:51

being satisfied and indeed thrilled

1:12:54

with incremental change . You know , like a lot of people are

1:12:56

, like great Misha , you can crawl , create the transformation

1:12:58

that we all want to see in our male leader who's really problematic

1:13:00

, and then like , if he just works with you after

1:13:03

10 or 20 sessions , like he'll just never be defensive

1:13:05

and never be problematic and never have like an politically

1:13:07

incorrect thought , and that

1:13:09

will be the indicator that he's now safe and

1:13:12

we can bring him back . But

1:13:14

, my friends , I'm here to tell you that that's not

1:13:16

how it works . I wish it were . That would be

1:13:18

cool if I had the magic wand , but

1:13:22

it's not right . Like people are complicated , they'll take two

1:13:24

steps forward , one step back . They'll get re-triggered

1:13:26

by something and then go back into their defensive

1:13:28

patterns . Yes

1:13:31

, I'd say the skills , yeah

1:13:33

, the skills to build that . We're all human

1:13:35

, fallible people building the skills . But the

1:13:37

skills to take very seriously in building are

1:13:39

the skills of proactively

1:13:41

seeking feedback , of being

1:13:43

energetically attuned to the

1:13:46

invitation in your body to

1:13:48

feedback , so that people feel energetically oh

1:13:50

, misha will take it really well and people around

1:13:53

you will vouch right

1:13:55

. So one of my big kind of like successes in this

1:13:57

is when , like , a woman had a problem with me from , like , a play

1:13:59

party three years ago where I

1:14:01

was just a little clingy with one of her partners

1:14:04

and she noticed it and felt like , really energetically

1:14:06

misattuned , and felt like , oh , me , she were trying to get in on the

1:14:08

group thing and like , and she was right , and

1:14:10

she held on to that for three years , you

1:14:12

know , and in recalling it I was like , oh yeah

1:14:14

, I was cling . I was clingy that night , like , and I will own

1:14:17

that and I've done work on that since then , like , but

1:14:19

like , the victory was her friend , her

1:14:21

going to people about me and

1:14:23

then being like you should go straight to Misha . I

1:14:25

am confident that he'll be able to take it well

1:14:28

and I've done this for some of mine Like

1:14:34

, and this is like really honestly . One of mine

1:14:36

is can I , if a woman came to me

1:14:38

to complain about you , would I feel

1:14:40

confident saying , oh

1:14:42

, you can go directly to bob like

1:14:44

. I am confident that bob will take your

1:14:46

feedback well and he'll take it seriously . He won't gaslight

1:14:49

you , he won't minimize , he won't deflect , he won't

1:14:51

get defensive . That's

1:14:54

a standard for me , for

1:14:56

friendship , but I it's a skill

1:14:58

that I invite any man to work on , frankly

1:15:00

, I invite any human to work on it . Defensiveness is

1:15:03

beyond gender , but especially

1:15:06

men , especially men in positions of leadership

1:15:08

or power or authority or rank , even

1:15:10

if they're not formally in authority . Where do

1:15:12

you hold influence and power ?

1:15:13

Yeah , that's

1:15:17

such a big thing . Um

1:15:22

, yeah , that's that's such a big thing . Yeah , I would , and I would like to think that my friends would

1:15:24

say that to people if somebody went to them , because that's super fucking

1:15:26

important to me . Like , integrity is very , very , very

1:15:29

important to me , especially as a sex educator

1:15:31

, as somebody who is in explorative

1:15:34

spaces on occasion . You know , like

1:15:36

, yeah , I really want to be that guy

1:15:38

, like yeah , you know , yeah

1:15:40

, and I think , and I think it's a way it landed and

1:15:42

maybe , and right and like , but like , will

1:15:45

taylor be able to hold it ?

1:15:47

totally , hold , hold maybe , and maybe

1:15:49

hold my projection without flipping

1:15:51

it back on me , like doing that weird fucked

1:15:53

up neo-tantra guru thing of being like , oh , this is your

1:15:55

stuff , totally , I hear you like

1:15:57

, just like , put like putting the mirror right up

1:15:59

in their face and be you know which is super

1:16:01

fucked up and like not Okay , Right , you have to

1:16:03

be able to say oh , thank you for sharing

1:16:05

Like let me look at what is here for me .

1:16:07

And if people are looking for metrics , you know

1:16:09

, like measurable things , like I think what you

1:16:11

just said , like that is a metric right there . Like

1:16:14

that it should be a standard that , like anybody

1:16:16

in a leadership position ideally all people

1:16:18

, but like especially if you're any in any

1:16:20

sort of leadership position , like that should be something

1:16:22

you should be striving for , I think .

1:16:25

Yes , I went on 100% Like . I mean

1:16:27

I I hesitate to use like kind of like table

1:16:30

stakes language because I feel it's too

1:16:32

extreme or ultimatum me , and

1:16:34

I think it doesn't take into account our us as like

1:16:37

, if I had to say I'd say table stakes

1:16:39

, is that like table stakes for leadership is

1:16:41

like a proactive

1:16:44

approach to feedback and a

1:16:46

ability to genuinely

1:16:48

commit to welcoming it with curiosity

1:16:51

and gratitude rather than defensiveness . And

1:16:54

if you're not able to , genuine right

1:16:56

genuine right because no matter what the words are

1:16:59

right , like have you ever , have you ever heard that Right ? There's like

1:17:01

a great episode of the office where where

1:17:03

Michael Scott gets some feedback about his coffee breath

1:17:05

and he's like , well , I'll work on that Right

1:17:08

, saying the right thing in to make it be over

1:17:10

with more quickly , you know , but then and that's

1:17:12

worse , and

1:17:24

then that will have an impact that people will feel

1:17:26

, and then it'll create the ripple

1:17:28

effect , et cetera et cetera , and at the risk

1:17:30

of being reviewy

1:17:32

or redundant , like it's worse because

1:17:34

it creates incoherence . People like it

1:17:37

is a very destructive thing

1:17:39

for the people around you for your words not to match

1:17:41

your energy right

1:17:43

it is . It creates incoherence

1:17:46

. It's one of the core trauma triggers . He's

1:17:49

saying it's okay , but I can feel in my body it's

1:17:51

not no

1:17:53

good .

1:17:54

Yeah , so this is one of the pieces you

1:17:56

said in the other interview , something to the effect of

1:17:58

like if if I'm a leader , then I

1:18:01

have to match my behavior

1:18:03

with the projections that I'm putting

1:18:05

out into the world .

1:18:06

Oh yeah , let's talk about projections for sure . You mentioned

1:18:09

this at the outset too .

1:18:10

Yeah , yeah , like

1:18:12

whatever I'm presenting myself as my

1:18:14

behavior has to match that .

1:18:16

it it's problems

1:18:19

, problems yeah you know , yeah

1:18:21

, yeah , I think that's so right . I think

1:18:23

that's so right and like , so , like

1:18:25

you know how I was saying earlier that the prop that

1:18:27

the harm of being

1:18:29

a progressive and feminist

1:18:31

man and then doing some sketchy stuff

1:18:34

around sex is like

1:18:36

exacerbated , like by an order of

1:18:38

magnitude . The harm of doing

1:18:40

some sketchy stuff around sex when you're a fucking

1:18:42

consent educator is exacerbated

1:18:44

by multiple quarters of magnitude . The

1:18:47

level of betrayal that

1:18:49

people will feel is

1:18:51

intense . Right , people come to

1:18:53

alternative communities ecstatic dance , yoga

1:18:55

, burning man , uh

1:18:57

, intentional communities , co-ops

1:19:00

, you name it right , churches because

1:19:02

they want to escape , in part

1:19:04

, the kind

1:19:06

of moral depravity of our capitalist

1:19:08

, legalistic

1:19:11

world . Right , they want

1:19:13

to be in community where we can relax

1:19:15

into our trust of each other . So

1:19:17

when the person that they've placed trust

1:19:19

in to be progressive

1:19:22

, to share their values , does

1:19:24

the same fucked up shit as the default world , guys

1:19:26

, it causes more

1:19:28

harm . And I needed to emphasize this because

1:19:31

, like , I've had a lot of clients who are super confused . They're

1:19:33

like well , wait a second , I'm a feminist , I've done all

1:19:35

this feminist stuff , I've like elevated women to

1:19:37

like positions of leadership , right , and

1:19:39

why don't I get the benefit of the doubt ? Like

1:19:41

, why don't I get like , I'm not going

1:19:43

out there and aggressively violating people

1:19:46

. But it turns out that , like when when

1:19:48

a man that you trust and love right

1:19:51

takes advantage , or

1:19:53

maybe let's just say when a man that you trust and love like

1:19:56

does a like cops a feel it's

1:20:00

actually often more psychologically

1:20:02

detrimental than when that

1:20:04

man that you didn't know at

1:20:06

a nightclub in Miami tried

1:20:08

to assault you Because there was no

1:20:10

trust in Miami . You didn't expect that guy

1:20:13

to be ethical . There's no betrayal . It's

1:20:15

like oh , that was just a scary , scary guy . That was scary

1:20:17

, but this was betrayal . I trusted

1:20:20

him . I let my guard down energetically

1:20:22

. This is also true for a lot of microaggressions

1:20:24

and racism . Right , like a lot of racist

1:20:26

statements . Right , like

1:20:38

when your friends right say something racist , it's way worse than like when some rando says something

1:20:40

racist , right , like so , so , yeah , so like the . The

1:20:42

the more progressive you are , especially that

1:20:44

you can proclaim yourself to be , the more dangerous

1:20:47

you are .

1:20:49

And the more responsibility you have .

1:20:50

Yeah , I mean I'm phrasing it in a little bit more of

1:20:52

an aggressive way , but yes , the more responsibility you have

1:20:55

. Yeah , I do that intentionally

1:20:57

, like to draw our attention . You can't proclaim

1:20:59

values and then not live up to them without

1:21:01

causing a lot of harm .

1:21:04

Yeah .

1:21:05

So be careful about the values that you proclaim .

1:21:07

Totally yeah . And to me , like . To

1:21:10

me , this , like what we're talking about right

1:21:13

here , like some people if you're still

1:21:15

listening like you're not in this camp , but some people

1:21:17

will dismiss it and say like , oh well , that's just

1:21:19

like there's a bug flying around me . That's

1:21:21

just sort of like woke new age , like people trying

1:21:24

to like figure out the best things to do or like

1:21:26

how to judge people , etc . And also

1:21:28

, but I really feel

1:21:30

like , if I feel like , to me this is

1:21:32

a spiritual practice , like it's , because it's really

1:21:34

. What is the impact that

1:21:36

I am having on the world

1:21:39

? What's the impact I'm having on

1:21:41

my community ? What is it

1:21:43

positive ? Am I causing harm , more

1:21:46

so than any state of consciousness I can achieve

1:21:48

? What is the ripple effect that I'm doing

1:21:50

and creating ? And that

1:21:53

, to me , is the practice . If

1:21:55

I could make a spiritual practice for everyone

1:21:57

and prescribe it like , that would be it , you

1:21:59

know .

1:22:00

Well , I mean , and I for for , for my

1:22:02

clients who veer towards spirituality

1:22:05

, I talk about this as a spiritual practice

1:22:07

. I talk about this as a way of connecting , like

1:22:09

you know , to being a channel

1:22:11

for divine light and for grace

1:22:13

. And , you know , for my Jewish

1:22:15

clients , I talk about Tikkun Olam and the

1:22:18

idea of healing the world through our actions . For

1:22:21

my clients from

1:22:23

a more political liberationary bent , or

1:22:25

liberatory bent , I talk about this as being

1:22:27

praxis , as being liberational

1:22:31

praxis , especially for white men , that this is actually

1:22:33

a form of revolutionary action , to

1:22:35

like accountability as revolutionary action

1:22:38

, accountability as liberation . For

1:22:41

my more , uh , executive clients

1:22:43

, I talk about this as leadership skills . I talk about this as

1:22:45

a way of demonstrating

1:22:48

evolved 21st century masculine

1:22:50

leadership , um , of

1:22:52

being a position , in a position of power that

1:22:54

recognizes it . I use um examples

1:22:56

of other leaders that I that that are

1:22:59

deeply respected , and I talk about how this um

1:23:01

creates stronger teams , like , sends

1:23:03

messages downstream , um to

1:23:06

others that , like this , is the kind of place

1:23:08

where it's actually not just safe

1:23:11

but encouraged to call out your

1:23:13

leaders , you know , and that tends

1:23:15

to create a lot more trust , especially if you're trying to build a

1:23:17

team with um people from a diverse

1:23:19

variety of backgrounds . Yeah

1:23:21

, um , that trust each other with a white guy in

1:23:23

charge . You really have to be thinking about this . Yeah

1:23:26

, so I think it applies across across

1:23:28

. Yeah , I think thinking about harm

1:23:31

and impact applies across , um

1:23:33

, across worlds yeah

1:23:36

.

1:23:37

So I want

1:23:39

to move towards closure here and talk about

1:23:41

one last sort of thematic thing while we're

1:23:43

doing that , which is some amount

1:23:45

of going into repair and apology

1:23:48

and how to how to do that . I

1:23:50

think that's a super important piece

1:23:52

. You said something uh , it's maybe

1:23:55

a quote I think you said something I

1:23:57

don't think it's actually possible to be accountable

1:23:59

without a whole lot of dignity , and

1:24:02

I I love that

1:24:04

. And then you also said I don't trust the apology

1:24:06

from someone who hates themselves .

1:24:09

Yeah , I did say that .

1:24:12

Yeah , which , which which is interesting , but

1:24:14

also like what I think it points to

1:24:16

what I , what I heard in that is

1:24:18

that there's , like

1:24:21

there's this sort of generative

1:24:23

place you could get to . If you're somebody who's been

1:24:25

called out or you've been said that , it's been

1:24:27

said that you've caused harm , there's a place

1:24:30

where you can , you could go into

1:24:32

a shame spiral and maybe you do that , maybe you have

1:24:34

your emotional release , but at some point you

1:24:36

can transmute that or change that

1:24:38

into actually you know what . Like I want to be

1:24:41

a really , I want to be a really integral

1:24:43

person in the world . Like my integrity

1:24:45

is important to me , my impact is important

1:24:47

to me . So then there's this dignity that comes

1:24:49

from that and rather than saying , oh

1:24:52

, I'm so bad , I'm so sorry

1:24:54

, I'm horrible , you say , wow , like I

1:24:56

messed up , I

1:24:59

am sorry , like I own that , et

1:25:01

cetera .

1:25:01

You know , like different , different , different

1:25:03

flavor , right , yeah , well

1:25:06

, I think , actually , the dignity comes

1:25:08

from being committed to your own integrity , but

1:25:10

I think the dignity actually comes from

1:25:12

a place of . There's

1:25:15

this great , great quote , and I'm going to I forget

1:25:17

the the name of the Seth

1:25:20

Godin no

1:25:24

matter what you've done , it's still

1:25:26

your responsibility to contribute

1:25:28

your gifts to the world . That's

1:25:34

the dignity . No

1:25:36

matter what you've done , it's

1:25:39

still your responsibility to contribute your gifts to

1:25:41

the world . You

1:25:44

have a gift to give . I guarantee

1:25:46

you , every man listening knows that they have a gift

1:25:48

to give to this world and

1:25:51

make a contribution in their lives

1:25:53

, and that they want to .

1:25:54

Yeah , and I imagine sorry , go

1:25:56

ahead . No , well , no , please . And

1:25:59

I imagine like the fear of getting called

1:26:01

out or said that you've caused harm is

1:26:03

ultimately translated into the fear that

1:26:05

you won't be able to give the gift and have

1:26:07

the impact on the world . Therefore

1:26:10

, better to shove away and keep giving the

1:26:12

gift than actually deal with it and

1:26:14

be able to yeah .

1:26:15

Yeah , yeah , that's exactly right . So I think part

1:26:17

of the part of this , the fear that a

1:26:19

call out creates is oh my god

1:26:22

, I had this gift to give . I know

1:26:24

that . I'm sure for you and me , right , if we were to get

1:26:26

called out , like part of the fear that we would experience would

1:26:28

be well , I'm right

1:26:30

, we've got these podcasts and these classes that you run

1:26:32

. Like what if I don't get to do that ? Like that was my dharma

1:26:34

, that was like my , the thing that was meant to do ? Yeah

1:26:37

, it's deep , sorry , without projecting onto you

1:26:39

, like it would be deeply hard

1:26:41

for me to like consider not being able to

1:26:43

speak on podcasts and like , do the writing

1:26:46

and the teaching and the coaching and the consulting that I , that

1:26:48

I do ? I mean , it's like I finally

1:26:50

found my purpose in life . You know , yeah , um , so

1:26:52

I hold that with , with delicacy , um

1:26:54

, but yeah , there's a deep dignity

1:26:56

in in , in

1:26:58

knowing that , like it's still my responsibility

1:27:01

to , to , to

1:27:03

, to contribute those gifts and and and to do so in

1:27:05

a way that's an integrity . So I

1:27:09

think part of part of approaching repair , I

1:27:11

think I really want to emphasize what you said is

1:27:13

doing your emotional

1:27:16

processing separately . I don't have

1:27:18

better like with

1:27:20

your therapist , with your coach , with your best friends , you

1:27:22

know , like screaming

1:27:24

, calling them names

1:27:26

, like I really am a deep

1:27:28

believer in , like politically

1:27:31

incorrect emotional processing done

1:27:33

in safe contexts and containers

1:27:35

.

1:27:35

Yeah .

1:27:36

Like I really think that that's important . Like

1:27:39

none of the successes I've experienced with my clients or my clients

1:27:41

have experienced through me would come

1:27:44

if they hadn't gotten some pretty toxic

1:27:46

shit out at some point . Yeah

1:27:48

, you know what I mean . And this

1:27:50

like let it emerge from their system without it being

1:27:52

like a logical thing of like oh , like this is like evidence

1:27:54

that you're bad or that you have you have wrong , think

1:27:56

, you know . But like , no , just like

1:27:58

, and and then show

1:28:01

up for the repair from a place

1:28:03

of having already expressed that and

1:28:05

had it witnessed , ideally maybe

1:28:08

by your journal or by your , your , your God

1:28:10

or by your community , in

1:28:13

a healthy way , and then show up for

1:28:15

the repair . I mean

1:28:17

, I could talk about repair for so long

1:28:19

, but like one of the big things is to show

1:28:22

up for repair without the agenda of

1:28:24

um , it's

1:28:27

like show up for

1:28:30

repair in the same way that we show up for sex right without

1:28:32

agenda . Like I think it's actually

1:28:34

can be detrimental to assign

1:28:36

, you know , it's like okay , well

1:28:38

, here's what I'm trying to get out of this . It's like , okay

1:28:40

, you can sort of go there , but like I

1:28:43

think showing up a repair with the right energy is more

1:28:45

important than showing up with the right agenda , because

1:28:48

sometimes you know , like and I see this happen all the time

1:28:50

and that's that's one of the reasons that it fucks up um

1:28:53

, like mediations that happen

1:28:55

too soon after the event People

1:28:57

are like what's my agenda ? My agenda is

1:28:59

to get resolution . My agenda is to get out of trouble . My agenda

1:29:01

is to be cool again . I don't want

1:29:03

this to be a thing anymore . I'd like this to stop being

1:29:06

a thing . I'd like you to be okay with me and

1:29:09

even having that as your agenda going

1:29:11

in , if you've done a harm could be the

1:29:13

kind of energy that will do more harm . Right

1:29:19

, the energy that will do more harm , yeah , right . So I see this happen all

1:29:21

the time where , like , they go into the mediation and she's like oh , he'll finally

1:29:23

get me , he'll finally receive me , and he's like I just want

1:29:26

to say whatever I need to say to get out of trouble

1:29:28

totally . And

1:29:31

then the energies are mismatched and he hasn't

1:29:33

done enough processing , and you know

1:29:35

and like , and then

1:29:37

it ends up being worse , right ? So this

1:29:39

is like number one most preventable mistakes

1:29:41

apologizing too quickly until

1:29:43

you've taken the time to grok it and

1:29:46

you know , and really I , I advise

1:29:48

, um , doing as much preemptive

1:29:50

emotional labor as you can , like really putting yourself

1:29:53

in the shoe , like , yes , like if

1:29:55

someone wants to share their pain with you , great

1:29:57

, like you know , you should be able to

1:29:59

hold that pain . Um , and do what

1:30:01

danielle surred the um , who

1:30:04

I quote all the time she's the founder of common justice

1:30:06

, which is a brooklyn-based restorative justice organization

1:30:09

. She calls standing in the fire of

1:30:11

accountability , which is sitting

1:30:13

with someone telling you the pain that you cause them and

1:30:16

just fucking standing in that fire , yeah

1:30:19

, which is so hard . It's a fire

1:30:21

, totally no defensiveness , no

1:30:24

, oh , but you also hurt me . Or oh , like

1:30:26

it's not that big deal , but oh , but like my

1:30:29

, I didn't have this good experience

1:30:31

in childhood , one time where kids beat me up like , just

1:30:33

thank you , what

1:30:36

else ? Right

1:30:38

? Um , yeah

1:30:41

, um . I think it's really important to engage

1:30:43

in that , uh , what I call pre-empt

1:30:45

, uh speculative empathy . I

1:30:48

imagine this person might have experienced this

1:30:50

. I imagine this person

1:30:52

might have experiences . I'm not going to assume that I know their

1:30:54

experience , but , given everything I know about them , I imagine

1:30:57

, imagine that , like when I did that , they probably experienced

1:30:59

maybe some betrayal , some sense of like , distrust

1:31:01

, like , oh , like . If Misha did this and like

1:31:03

, how can I trust him to be a consent educator ? God

1:31:05

, like . And then how can I trust this organization that's endorsed

1:31:08

him as a consent educator ? I imagine you experienced

1:31:10

all those thoughts and that must have sucked

1:31:12

for you . Oh

1:31:15

, I can go so much Like

1:31:17

we're not even we . We don't . I don't know if we

1:31:19

have the time to go into like , but apology practice

1:31:21

and restoration practice is like a huge part of my work

1:31:24

.

1:31:24

Yeah , I'd say you know what I'd say

1:31:26

? Like , if you have the time , people can . People

1:31:28

can break this episode up into chunks

1:31:30

, so

1:31:35

I think it could be useful , Like if you could . You know , possibly there's somebody listening right now

1:31:37

who's like man , I'm really taking notes , I really want to get this stuff . Like

1:31:39

let's . I'd say let's , let's

1:31:42

round . Like if we can do that in 15

1:31:44

minutes , whatever we

1:31:46

can round out to provide some actionable , something

1:31:48

like I , yeah , I'd say let's do

1:31:50

it .

1:31:51

Yeah , so okay , if

1:31:53

you've done harm and you know it and you want to make it better

1:31:56

, right , the first thing

1:31:58

is to be with your

1:32:00

own body , be with yourself

1:32:02

, like , be with the

1:32:04

experience of doing harm and make sure that you're not coming

1:32:06

from the place of like I'm a shit , shit

1:32:08

, piece of shit , you know

1:32:10

. So , not self-flagellating

1:32:13

, you know that that expression like self-hitting

1:32:15

and also

1:32:17

right , well , like

1:32:21

, welcome and acknowledge the degree , like the , the various politically

1:32:23

incorrect feelings that you'll inevitably

1:32:25

get like . One of the first things that happens after

1:32:28

I do harm to someone is

1:32:30

I look at them through a red lens and I'm like

1:32:32

what a what a over

1:32:34

sensitive judgy

1:32:36

piece . You know , you know , like , that's

1:32:39

my internal process . I think most people's internal process

1:32:41

is that we start hating

1:32:43

the person we harmed . It's a defense

1:32:45

mechanism . It's quite common Accept

1:32:47

it , recognize it , notice it , let it pass

1:32:50

through you , right , let it come through you Some

1:32:53

level of like hitting a pillow or some sort

1:32:55

of like expression going to someone , having

1:32:57

a big cry , being really self-centered in your

1:32:59

cry . All of this should be done privately , not with the person you

1:33:01

harmed . Right , lots of pre-work , restorative

1:33:04

justice . People call this prep . Yeah

1:33:07

, you prep . You prep before you go into the circle

1:33:09

. You

1:33:12

really look not just at like , where , like

1:33:14

. The inquiry is where you were out of integrity

1:33:17

. That's usually the best , most fruitful

1:33:19

place to start . A lot of people

1:33:21

call this what did I do wrong , but

1:33:24

wrong tends to like apply to like a

1:33:26

, an objective set of standards

1:33:28

. Did I break a law ? Did I violate a

1:33:30

norm within the community ? That's

1:33:33

that can be useful as an inquiry , but like it's also

1:33:35

, I find it much more useful to be like what

1:33:37

did I do that was out of my own standards , you

1:33:40

know , and usually for this inquiry

1:33:42

it's useful to assume that there was something right

1:33:44

. Like part of my practice . You talk about preventative practices

1:33:47

. We asked at the early set . One of my preventative practices

1:33:49

is when any at , whenever anybody

1:33:52

gives me feedback , I assume

1:33:54

that it's all true , all

1:33:56

of it , and

1:33:59

I just sit with that . It

1:34:03

takes me anywhere between an hour and a week to just ugh that stage and it's the

1:34:05

worst . It's the worst because I'm consciously

1:34:08

tearing down my own internal

1:34:11

defenses , all of my armor

1:34:13

that I've naturally created , for myself to be

1:34:15

like dismiss that one . That's not real and just

1:34:18

allow it in , and for myself to be like , dismiss that one , that's not real and just like , allow it in and allow

1:34:20

it to be true . Like , what if this were ? Like what

1:34:23

, if they're seeing a side of me that I'm not even ? Oh

1:34:25

God , it's the worst , especially if you don't trust

1:34:27

them , if you're like this person's like not a good

1:34:29

judge of character and I don't trust their judgment

1:34:31

. They're just seeing a side of me , you

1:34:34

know , is just a facet

1:34:36

, you know , and it's not really me . Ooh

1:34:38

, okay , you've done that work . Now

1:34:41

let's say you've seen it and you've seen where you were

1:34:43

out of integrity . You've

1:34:46

seen where , like , oh , it's important to me to be compassionate and I wasn't . It's important

1:34:48

to me to be thoughtful and to like , really be like attuned and I wasn't

1:34:51

attuned . Okay

1:34:53

, when you

1:34:55

like , I advise people to write out the restoration

1:34:57

, even

1:35:00

if they end up delivering it verbally . I advise people to take the time

1:35:02

to write it out , um , and

1:35:04

then , in terms of like , venue for delivery

1:35:07

or or or vehicle for delivery , written

1:35:09

, oral , in person , et cetera , is

1:35:11

, um , I think , really a context

1:35:14

based . Some people hate written , some people hate to

1:35:16

receive written . They're like this is dispassionate

1:35:18

or cold , um , some people would

1:35:20

really appreciate it , because it's like , oh , this is complicated

1:35:22

and I have complicated feelings and I want to be able to sit with your

1:35:24

words . Yeah , and I know that if we talk

1:35:27

like all my instinct will be to like

1:35:29

, immediately tell

1:35:31

you it's okay when

1:35:35

you engage in the repair . Um

1:35:37

, I have a whole practice on this , but

1:35:39

it's name

1:35:44

the action . Don't apologize for impact

1:35:46

. Name the action

1:35:49

and then , when you apologize , apologize for what you did , not

1:35:51

for how they felt , not

1:35:54

for what happened , but what

1:35:56

you did . I am sorry that I hit you , not

1:35:58

I'm sorry that you were hurt , I'm

1:36:00

sorry that you felt bad .

1:36:03

We use this in .

1:36:03

English all the time we say I'm sorry that you're feeling

1:36:05

that bad , I'm sorry your father died , and an apology

1:36:08

letter really with me

1:36:10

.

1:36:10

Yeah , except the one piece , just to clarify

1:36:12

. Like that I see

1:36:15

in some people is like , like

1:36:17

we talked to earlier , just want to name it like oh

1:36:22

, maybe they didn't hit the person , maybe it's not , like they have a hard time clearly identifying

1:36:24

it , In which case , I think , go back and possibly listen to the earlier part of this episode

1:36:27

again .

1:36:28

Yeah , yeah , well , well , like , how about

1:36:30

? How about ? Like , I'm sorry that I disrespected

1:36:32

you , right , I ? Generally one of my more advanced

1:36:35

techniques is to like name the action that happened

1:36:37

and then , when you apologize

1:36:39

, apologize for the more

1:36:41

overarching theme of the thing that you

1:36:43

did . That was most impactful . Like , um

1:36:46

, I workshopped one recently where it was a man with

1:36:48

his partner and he took

1:36:51

off the toll like

1:36:53

sticker thing that like allowed the you know

1:36:55

and without telling them , and then the person like

1:36:57

got a ticket because , right

1:37:00

, and it was like I'm , yes

1:37:02

, like , what I happened was I took off the toll sticker

1:37:05

thing on the car without telling you . That's what happened . But

1:37:08

what I'm sorry for is that I'm sorry that

1:37:10

I took away your sovereignty , because it's

1:37:12

something that we've talked about a lot got

1:37:15

it yeah you see what I mean ? totally , that's

1:37:17

where the juice is , that's where the resonance

1:37:19

is . Yeah , right , that's

1:37:21

what the person wants to hear , not I'm sorry for this

1:37:23

incidental little thing , because the incidental thing of

1:37:25

the thing it's right in the context of our marriage is

1:37:28

representative of all the other shit right and so like

1:37:30

do you get the impact right

1:37:32

? Do you get the , the gestalt , the

1:37:34

holistic thing and that's that's

1:37:37

the advanced technique is to apologize for that . Name

1:37:40

the impact right , engage

1:37:42

in the speculative empathy , engage in like

1:37:44

reflection of right . This is where your non-violent

1:37:46

communication skills can come in . Of like I

1:37:49

heard you say that you were hurt in this specific way

1:37:51

, betrayed , felt

1:37:53

, violated , whatever it was , and then you can say

1:37:55

like this is how you felt , this is what what your experience was . It's

1:37:57

better generally to take away phrases Like you

1:38:00

felt this , better to use direct

1:38:02

language of like this was violating to you , or you

1:38:04

were violated , or I violated you . People

1:38:07

are pretty resilient when you say I violated

1:38:09

you . People tend to really tend to , especially

1:38:11

in relationship , tend

1:38:14

to respect that and and tends to

1:38:16

land pretty easily . So

1:38:20

we've done the apology

1:38:22

, we've done naming the action , we've done naming the incoherence

1:38:24

, we've talked about naming the impact

1:38:26

, and

1:38:30

then the final two steps are repair

1:38:32

and prevention . What am I doing to repair

1:38:34

it right ? What am I doing to make it better

1:38:37

? I'm going to pay the toll . I'm

1:38:39

going to pay for your therapy . I'm taking

1:38:42

classes from an accountability

1:38:44

coach . I'm , you know , I'm

1:38:46

taking classes with Taylor . You know , maybe it's indirect

1:38:48

, maybe I was pushy , in part because I don't have good control

1:38:51

of my sexual urges , and so it's not

1:38:53

about , like , learning to apologize better . It's about like

1:38:55

, actually that's the reparative act , right

1:38:57

? Or rather , that's more of a preventative

1:38:59

action , right , the preventative action is

1:39:01

gaining better control of my own sexuality . That's a

1:39:03

journey that I have seen now from this incident , that

1:39:05

I need to go on .

1:39:07

Yeah , just to say , also with

1:39:09

a number of the women that I've talked to over the years

1:39:11

who've experienced some sort of harm from somebody , like

1:39:13

, one of the biggest important

1:39:15

things that they really desire is

1:39:17

evidence that

1:39:19

the man is changing

1:39:22

the behavior , going forward like

1:39:24

, and that inherently is part of the

1:39:26

repair process right .

1:39:27

Totally oftentimes prevention can feel

1:39:30

reparative , totally right . Um

1:39:32

, so I I I say

1:39:34

that by saying and sometimes there's actual

1:39:37

reparative steps . For sure , it depends

1:39:39

on depending on the context , depending on the harm , depending on

1:39:41

the . But yes , oftentimes

1:39:43

everything in prevention functions as

1:39:45

repair , but you don't get to skip

1:39:47

over the repair as well . You