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0:43

This is seizing Freedom. I'm out

0:45

of Williams after the

0:47

murder of George. Floyd in 2020.

0:50

Call, Cindy fun and abolish.

0:52

The police were heard around the country for

0:54

some imagined in a world without

0:56

policing with new, but

0:58

black people. and.

1:00

Women in particular have been advocating

1:02

for the end of police. The imprisoned for

1:04

much longer. Think Angela

1:07

Davis? Patrice, colors,

1:09

no name. Ruth Wilson, Gilmore.

1:14

Merriam copies one of those women. And

1:17

her work is deeply affected how I think about

1:19

justice. We spoke,

1:21

she told me about a poem by American activist

1:24

March Piercing. The be of

1:26

use. A poem and

1:28

forms her approach the abolition. What

1:31

she describes. The practice. Mariam

1:34

reading some of that poem. I

1:37

like people.

1:38

Who highness the some an?

1:41

oc to a heavy car The

1:43

poll, my water buffalo with massive

1:45

patient. Drain in the mud

1:48

and the muck to move things forward.

1:51

Would you what has to be done again

1:54

and again?

1:56

This episode or season finale,

1:59

Marion. Help me about the activists

2:01

who paved the way for her.

2:03

The ways many of us practice abolition

2:05

of without realizing that. And

2:08

why safety can only be found through

2:11

community?

2:14

What were your first memory of, please? Oh,

2:17

there's sell it would have been. Maybe

2:20

a high school and it would have been something that

2:22

was completely distance.

2:25

Now and it would like it would have been my, yeah.

2:27

Violent attack like were Really Resonated",

2:29

it probably would have been rotten. The team feeling.

2:32

You know, any prefab say that, the kid?

2:36

Did you had any, did

2:38

you ever see any shows on T. V. about Hot?

2:41

No. Now

2:44

your situation is so. The

2:46

normal. Right because the

2:48

vast majority of people in the country.

2:51

Uncle Jimmy might have been a cop we're employed

2:53

Jimmy's friend with cop you.

2:55

played with cops wave You

2:58

watched cop's shows you don't

3:00

even think about, like, watch somebody, it's

3:02

hard for you the truth when. For

3:04

to became aware of belief in policing isn't

3:07

like make period and. Hawking people

3:09

over time has been back that people

3:11

have that experience and,

3:13

because it's because background noise in the climate

3:17

You don't question there. The things you don't

3:19

even think there could be world where

3:21

they would not exist. Because they've

3:23

always been there in the background.

3:25

existing to keep your the. From

3:28

those other terrible people who might

3:30

go crazy and lose all, you

3:32

know, become anarchism destroyed by

3:34

the had so for that to be the case.

3:37

Of course you can't imagine different

3:39

World Cup. When you're merely

3:42

swimming in the think that water

3:44

and breathing in the air, your entire

3:47

life. The me, it's

3:49

miracle when people. Actually

3:52

pay what they don't have to be here and like

3:54

we could do something different back miraculous

3:56

thing. The group under the current

3:59

that some cop. Yeah, under and all that

4:01

other kind of sucks to think otherwise. There

4:04

might be here. Good, huge,

4:06

huge lists. You'd wanna

4:09

think I it's okay to

4:11

be shocked or choose job

4:13

official stance of like, oh, my God know that

4:16

this can't happen and to feel like. Yeah,

4:18

did, like, welcome that

4:20

bad, those feelings are happening. Because

4:22

it means your CIA, it's challenging something within

4:25

you. And a grieving, you would question.

4:28

And that's. all we can now

4:31

Exactly, and the kinds of questions that

4:33

are an easily answered. That

4:35

you can't stop hearing and you can't

4:37

stop thinking about.

4:43

mariam group. The New York City. Her

4:45

parents were from the ivory coast and

4:47

Guinea.

4:49

Her father often read and talked about

4:51

leftist politics at home and,

4:53

her mother's face been her family let friends

4:55

say with them when they were on how Those

4:58

actually thought mariam about the importance

5:00

of community from an early age.

5:03

What our first encounter with abolition, the series

5:06

came much later. He was

5:08

in graduate school in Chicago and

5:10

she was assigned to read a book written by someone

5:13

that many of our guest needs as an inspiration.

5:16

I would be well, Barnett and was

5:18

the first time ever read her. And

5:21

was very interested in the issues around

5:23

seat violence and hadn't

5:25

already doing as the police

5:27

brutality at the time is what call "Dib's

5:30

organizing" when was a teenager. They

5:32

found lot of Canada.

5:36

I found a lot of inspiration in

5:38

what she was doing, literally going

5:41

to say where lynching had occurred.

5:43

During investigation immediately

5:46

after those lynching documenting,

5:49

that And then trying

5:51

to push for changes, including

5:53

a federal law against lynching, and

5:56

I thought to myself, wow this

5:58

is a person that I need to know more. Wow.

6:01

Over. The years continued to read

6:03

about her, had read a crusade

6:05

project since her own attempt

6:07

at documentary herself in history,

6:10

and I loved her musings

6:12

about buying clothes and. Spending

6:14

too much money and just

6:16

that this is a human being and I loved

6:19

that about her, she didn't feel removed

6:21

from my experience rather she felt like

6:23

somebody I. Would be friends with subsequently

6:27

when I'm in Chicago her

6:29

a great granddaughter was

6:31

trying to raise money for monument

6:33

and added he was his name. A

6:37

couple of years ago, I got

6:39

involved in the fundraising campaign and

6:41

helps raise the funds that were necessary

6:44

to build that memorial and monument,

6:46

and now it exists it was put

6:49

up this year and so it's kind of a full

6:51

circle moment in strange way for me.

6:54

I think that's amazing, had a similar

6:56

experience, she's it's one of those people who

6:58

once you learn more Out her, you

7:01

want to learn more and more and more including

7:03

about why, you don't know about her today.

7:05

I think with people today, to understand

7:08

that they go through some of the same some

7:10

of the same concerns, the same

7:12

fears as these people.

7:14

We look up to from the past and

7:16

it reminds me of something

7:18

that you said

7:20

Social transformation and Liberation

7:22

are not about waiting

7:24

for someone else to come along can save

7:26

you, and that ordinary

7:28

people have the power. to collectively free

7:31

themselves. And so, I i think

7:33

about someone like Ida B Wells. is doing

7:35

that work but also inspiring that work

7:37

and so i wonder how did you come to that knowledge

7:40

or understanding about ordinary

7:42

people specifically

7:45

Yeah disagree question I think

7:47

really. honestly history of my teacher

7:50

and so is my father who

7:53

told me his stories about

7:55

the guinea and revolution and

7:57

about how ordinary people ordinary unix

7:59

success The we overthrew French not

8:01

calling your rule all I.

8:03

had a first can eat to

8:05

understanding how this

8:07

was possible and in fact Had

8:10

been done and continues to

8:12

be done and, The

8:15

group I bought a very much voracious readers,

8:17

and I was a kid. The have always

8:19

been interested in the history of

8:21

social movement. The said:

8:24

"I think my understanding that

8:26

ordinary people have the power

8:28

to collectively free ourselves one of the

8:30

book I read. The years

8:32

ago that really reinforces this task

8:35

for me it's trump hands I've got the

8:37

light of freedom which,.

8:39

is about the mississippi freedom struggle

8:41

in a way things are young and isis to read that

8:43

book because it's so instructive and

8:46

it's written in way that really

8:48

helps us to understand how

8:50

ordinary people Really.

8:52

Has organized to be able to collectively

8:55

three themselves and to move

8:57

towards more freedom, and then lastly

8:59

it was actually getting involved with other young

9:01

people myself and organizing

9:04

together around. Addressing

9:07

issues in our communities in our lives

9:09

that we wanted to see

9:12

made better, that's the way came to

9:14

us, I think that helping people

9:16

see.

9:18

That people like I'd be wells while

9:20

she rose to become someone

9:22

who we think of as extraordinary, she

9:24

also started as an ordinary person

9:27

right absolutely, and she's

9:29

one of the many people from this time who

9:31

did that and the.

9:32

The also inspired is kind of work

9:35

this extraordinary work amongst other ordinary

9:38

people.

9:38

And. I think that when people recognize that

9:40

when they see themselves in some

9:42

of the people we look at, they have a better

9:44

understanding of the wrong capacity for change,

9:47

yeah, that's. Exactly the point

9:50

that I think in our culture we love

9:52

to separate people from

9:54

the communities they come from, a

9:56

we also don't see the full

9:58

nature of.

10:00

Oh, and people and the systems

10:02

and the structures that's the point those individual

10:04

absence I did, he walked by net married.

10:07

A man, Ferdinand, been find

10:09

that. Who wears a pro feminist

10:12

at the time this is man who stayed home

10:14

he? made dinner They. Receive

10:17

the one who went and took our kid

10:19

with her and, like, and lectured

10:21

here in there, and he held

10:24

down the home front during that time that

10:26

extraordinarily employed that's. How come she could have

10:28

four kids, you know, she was

10:30

part of network of organizers,

10:33

I like she's not all by his last season

10:35

coming up, there are people who. Are her

10:37

contemporaries were also struggling

10:40

and sightings, and think if you don't understand

10:42

the full context of that, it's easy to actually

10:45

either be like can't be

10:47

like that. can do that work because doesn't

10:49

connect to you because it's like she

10:51

was so extraordinary that was

10:53

something about or that's not me a

10:56

no, in fact, is part of. A whole

10:58

ecological social network

11:00

of people who are also struggling

11:02

who are also fighting, we really don't

11:04

do things by ourselves, there's

11:07

no either be well with out.

11:09

People who we don't know the names of food, which

11:12

wailing and working, what about all

11:14

the people who were the black

11:16

women who were cooking? Every time,

11:18

the we're gathering of people coming together

11:21

to talk about freedom. We're.

11:24

Doing the labour of the seeming

11:26

these faces and these movements that's

11:28

where often you find a lot of ordinary

11:30

people who took hundred actions that

11:32

we don't recorded history, but that. Without

11:35

them history isn't the way we've

11:37

actually had experienced it now. Exactly

11:40

in all about Superman or.

11:45

Further reading: "I to be well", Barnett in the Nineties,

11:48

mariam lead and organize with a variety

11:51

of groups in Chicago. They focus

11:53

on community safety initiative. Reducing

11:56

youth incarceration supported

11:58

incarcerated survivors of sex. The violence

12:01

and community bond fun. These

12:03

are all intervention set, minimize

12:05

contact with police and helped free

12:08

and keep people out of jail and prison.

12:11

And twenty six teams, mariam

12:13

move back to New York City or she

12:15

has continued teach in an organizing.

12:19

Writing books like last year's best

12:21

seller, we do. The to be for,

12:23

yeah. The forthcoming book,

12:25

called authored With into Your" The key is

12:28

call no more police. Okay,

12:30

for abolition. However,

12:32

mariam to summarize her case.

12:37

That fits them that currently

12:39

exists. Supposedly

12:43

a giraffe harm?

12:45

Institution like prisons,

12:47

police thing surveillance

12:50

sense in things actually cause

12:52

much more harm than good

12:55

and that we need to. abolish

12:57

the system in order for

13:00

us to be able to have a

13:02

society in which. People

13:05

can actually cried. Not

13:07

yet survive for. focusing

13:09

particularly focusing that book on policing

13:12

as an institution but we know that

13:14

policing it's not divorce From

13:16

any of the other instance. The by

13:18

the in general. The for me

13:20

prison industrial complex abolition is

13:23

actually vision of restructured world,

13:26

world where we have everything that we need

13:28

to basically thrive. And

13:30

that includes, you know. Clean

13:33

water and that includes housing

13:35

for everybody that includes healthcare,

13:38

for all that includes all the things

13:40

that are needed in order to actually

13:43

promote what people say they want,

13:45

which is Stacey. What is

13:47

safety mean and look like to you?

13:50

The hardest and most difficult question

13:53

to answer. In part

13:55

because I think while see,

13:57

he may be a basic and universal mean.

14:00

And it doesn't have universal singular

14:02

definition. That had so

14:04

many. The current connotation

14:07

and it actually isn't table

14:09

category by that, I mean, we don't

14:11

all agree. About what a day. I

14:14

think one thing that do always wanna bring

14:16

up to people that know society

14:18

can be made, quote perfectly, safe

14:21

attack and happen. How

14:23

about your vulnerable? But

14:25

not equally sell. And

14:28

they'll all be reality make it really difficult

14:31

think the think and talk about fifty

14:33

and when say all of us are from the think

14:35

we're seeing that way in the pandemic

14:38

way, it's impact all of us

14:40

but we're not all equally vulnerable

14:43

to it. so The other

14:45

thing about fifteen, that's a tricky.

14:48

The point is that it often can and

14:50

his lap and nine. Though

14:52

you know, we criminalize particular group.

14:55

The say that they're practically and see we

14:57

make them into threat. We use them

15:00

again called. The rest

15:02

of the population to justify

15:04

increasing investment in the death

15:06

making in the kitchen to, make

15:08

us really The air to each other because

15:11

after all. murder is

15:13

kill their even,

15:15

though you know one murder feel

15:18

terrible and it's horrible only don't want

15:20

that. but it's still rare

15:22

that people kill each other in that way in

15:24

i think that also hard to say to

15:26

people because that also makes

15:28

people feel will you don't care about people

15:30

killing each other that's actually not true

15:33

but in the scheme of things a lot more

15:35

people like by orders of

15:37

hundred at die from lack

15:39

of helped And other kinds of structural

15:42

one. The By went and you don't see people

15:44

being up in arms about that in the same kind

15:46

of way so we have to be honest.

15:48

about like what we mean The violin and

15:50

what we understand to be safe safety.

15:53

Not something that I can personally

15:56

put that. He could be, he isn't

15:58

a thing. Actually,

16:00

social relation. Then

16:02

I'm more or less days depending

16:04

on my relationship the other.

16:06

And to the resources, I need to survive.

16:08

So I i can only feel

16:10

less or more space. So

16:13

if you asked me if I i feel

16:15

more or less safe, my answer is going to depend

16:17

on so many things like did

16:19

I just get paid today? So

16:21

might be feeling less anxious about my went

16:24

get. i go outside today or did

16:26

say home all day Good,

16:28

I log onto the Internet and

16:31

was bombarded by story that missing

16:33

people and mass shooting

16:36

a contingent on so many things

16:38

that are out of my control. The

16:41

Web abolition of, please, we begin by

16:43

asking whether see people are communities,

16:46

but we know we can't come to that answer ourselves,

16:49

we have su. Do

16:51

it collectively and talk with each other

16:53

about. What it means for ended

16:55

in each individual and what

16:58

are the conditions that we kept to

17:00

create that will increase beekeeper everyone's

17:02

for at least as many people as possible, but

17:05

I think the question demand there.

17:07

The agree, and I think that wanted a things

17:09

that I see with your work is

17:11

very clear appreciation

17:13

for the fact that. Hard

17:16

of we're addressing this issue

17:18

of safety in Ball is

17:20

addressing the issues of care and giving people

17:22

what they mean.

17:24

And I did some people not just in

17:26

some neighborhoods, but every

17:28

one giving every one what

17:30

they need can address

17:33

some of these larger issues, can

17:35

you tell us? The culture

17:37

of. Here and looks like and how we

17:39

build and nurture it. I've

17:41

been we can. And should probably

17:43

learn a lot. From disabled

17:45

community is about that.

17:47

You know, care, if not just about

17:49

how we treat each other.

17:51

The about also how we care

17:53

for the plan. It's

17:55

about ensuring a world that is precarious.

17:59

The liked it. Then. When

18:01

Elliott who coined? This is

18:03

how can brilliant organizer

18:06

always says that relationship and the most

18:08

important resource we have? And

18:11

that points to culture of care of that

18:13

needs to exist right there

18:15

will be Ashley no safety that

18:17

we don't make through collective

18:20

care. And collected

18:22

care I always talk about and think

18:24

about it, it as a form of reciprocal

18:27

community prohibition. That's how

18:29

we make each other possible. How

18:32

we make it to me?

18:41

The episode a seething freedom disappointed

18:44

home made it hard to that

18:46

extent the meaning of home and,

18:48

then he competed for better serve any

18:50

to the Everything and listen

18:52

to an episode of Home made out

18:54

of this up. About teenage

18:57

girl who leapt for home and navajo

18:59

reservation to pursue her dream

19:01

of playing college basketball. Her

19:04

story as native woman leaving

19:06

home for the excited. Of new opportunities

19:10

and.

19:10

Met. With racism upon her arrival

19:13

is reminiscent of so many of the stories

19:15

we tell his seizing freedom and,

19:18

is a poignant reminder that the lessons

19:20

we carry with us from. Our ancestors

19:22

can help us navigate or most challenging

19:25

moment, search for whole need

19:27

any where he lives in park, has to

19:30

work home, in May in.

19:33

the he will include link

19:35

And our show notes. To

19:38

the end of it. Eight episode to hear trailer.

19:40

Many thanks to have made for their support.

19:45

The America was a tumultuous mix

19:47

of European colonists, free and enslaved

19:49

Africans and indigenous people.

19:52

A declaration of independence spoke for

19:54

just a few what, other

19:56

voices express life in those times.

19:59

for of

20:00

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20:02

world has examined the early United States

20:05

from east to west and as far afield

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where people who love history and want to learn

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more. sponsored by

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20:24

Yeah, I'm good at a William. Maria

20:27

Kaaba is. No, to her baby and.

20:30

In around kinda be surprised. And

20:32

the abolition of the prison industrial complex

20:35

and criminal punishment system. And

20:37

while anything, use of presence and police

20:40

may seem like lofty goal. mariam

20:43

told me that getting their such with

20:45

abolishing the internalized systems of oppression

20:47

within ourselves, I think for

20:49

me.

20:51

That worked as a transformation

20:54

of salt. And.

20:57

That get one hundred percent to the work of transformation

21:00

of the broader society, these are not separate

21:02

things, these are things we are doing, the

21:04

both can dump all the time.

21:07

And part of it is getting aware

21:09

of when you're replicating the very system

21:12

right part of why it's so hard

21:14

to dislodge policing

21:16

is that we get involved in policing

21:18

each. Other all the time to

21:21

it's. a lot of the things that we do and the world's

21:23

if you don't articulate sam you

21:26

just assume they're the way things

21:28

are and you just keep reenacting

21:30

those things all the time so the power

21:33

that The victims have over

21:35

you, you're not even questioning

21:37

how that showing up. You're

21:39

thinking in your actions

21:42

in your behavior is a,

21:44

so you have to just keep being vigilant

21:46

about that i think that's a huge helpful

21:48

part of doing political education

21:50

is that it often helps raise for you

21:53

Adam will give a, why do I think that's

21:55

where my not asking questions about that,

21:58

think, being vigilant as? Question:

22:00

Every time instead of just assuming

22:03

that the last, the answered that they gave

22:05

it to you, think all of those are ways

22:07

to try that. Their lives, you

22:09

internalize forms of oppression that

22:11

we all charity. think that one

22:14

of the things for me with that when first started.

22:16

He really, by abolition I had when

22:19

think a lot of people had.

22:20

Put a deeper response, lack of know

22:22

like that, yeah, that's perfect.

22:24

Well, that's not right, but then once you

22:26

sit with it and you keep listening,

22:29

yeah, to think it through you can at least

22:31

I can't on here.

22:34

I can't I'm here at the ways.

22:36

The them doesn't work.

22:38

The ways the system cars

22:41

on the way that we have bought

22:43

into the system believing that

22:45

it won't do harm with it actually

22:48

continues to do even more harm particularly

22:50

to the most vulnerable people and.

22:52

for me as i have brought

22:54

up abolition with other folks

22:57

have gotten

22:58

My own initial response, you know,

23:01

and then I sit with them, say, would think that. Yeah.

23:04

I hope. this out

23:06

let's talk about how we think the system is healthy

23:09

And why did actually doing?

23:11

That's exactly right, and you know why

23:13

I like always tell people I'm not as

23:15

evangelists for abolition

23:17

like I'm not out there trying to convert

23:20

people what understand

23:22

is that the current system that we have.

23:26

Oui government works for anybody

23:28

very well and the question

23:30

then is with something can't be said.

23:33

Then you need to build something out.

23:35

The abolition said. That.

23:38

Figure out how to build something else and

23:40

the way we'll do that is we'll figure

23:42

it out by working to get there that

23:44

we will just you step by step figuring.

23:46

Out how to get that there is no magic

23:49

solution, things are going to abruptly

23:51

ends, it's like we're just gonna have to

23:54

figure it out by working to get there really.

23:56

A positive projects the building is

23:58

it's a tearing down. Of works.

24:01

Then. Happy destroy that the sun set

24:03

exists that are so harmful, but

24:05

it's really awful of evolutionary project

24:07

the building in the best them, what

24:10

do you wanna see in the world? And much start

24:12

making any folks are doing

24:14

it every day, I always tell people much

24:16

abolition in the present, we are

24:18

doing it right now in the ways

24:20

that people are. Taking power away from the police

24:23

and offering community based responses

24:25

to mental health issues in the ways

24:27

that folks are doing food program to help

24:29

feed people in the ways that. Folks are

24:31

fighting for a living wages so people have

24:34

you. know and ability to feed themselves

24:36

and how themselves as themselves care of their children

24:39

and therefore you know again increasing

24:41

fahy for everybody through those mean

24:43

some were doing abolition all the time

24:46

it is unacceptable Who

24:48

accept that cops are killing three people day?

24:51

And the boat people are disproportionately

24:53

disabled people. That they are

24:55

disproportionately black and brown people. Okay,

24:58

that you need is not an acceptable

25:00

thing. No, they're not even counting

25:03

the countless the people that injuring in

25:05

day. How how I can

25:07

sit back and might accept that

25:09

as a reality and be like that's something

25:12

I'm okay with, I'm i'm just not I'm

25:14

just not I'm not okay with

25:16

all the people who are dying in prison. Right

25:19

now because of cold it. What is

25:21

it not okay and the fact

25:23

that people keep telling me that smurf one be

25:25

simple reforms in the first? Right,

25:29

and when you think of the etymology

25:31

of reform, what does it mean your

25:33

re for me is the

25:35

root of the tree is

25:38

the Z? You

25:40

read warm that. I mean. Who

25:43

actually? Take for

25:45

matter that. There and week warm

25:47

it into something else the disease has gone

25:49

nowhere. Right?

25:52

The have had two hundred and fifty years. Did

25:55

you prove a point that? And

25:57

trillions of dollars poured into

25:59

those system. And then people will say the

26:01

other what's your lucian I'm like, Whoa? You'd

26:03

be right. The trillion dollar you given

26:06

and the two hundred and fifty years I promise you will

26:08

do better.

26:11

How about that is exactly?

26:14

indiana

26:14

Who haven't been exposed to abolition the saw

26:16

might believe that doing away with our current

26:19

criminal punishment system is naive

26:21

and, i'm thinking about how people have witness

26:23

or been victims of horrible crimes

26:26

either today or in the past so how

26:28

do we help people move past this thirst

26:30

for punishment and revenge

26:32

and towards care

26:34

Yeah, it's a great question I

26:36

would just say. For many

26:38

hurts you deeply and I've been

26:40

hurt safely and I've been up myself

26:43

survives on we disarm

26:46

it. you aren't required to forgive

26:48

the people who harm you can

26:50

walk vengeance deeply like

26:53

you can walk punishment deeply

26:55

These are appealing better, completely

26:57

acceptable to have. What

27:00

I understand that is an abolitionist,

27:02

however, is that I'm not interested in codified

27:05

feelings of revenge as policy.

27:08

That's a different. Ah.

27:11

And I also believe that there is

27:13

an important in China figure

27:15

out what repair could look like.

27:18

And but that doesn't have to be punishing. You

27:20

know and that we can figure out other

27:23

ways to make sure that people are

27:25

helps accounts a lot of

27:27

people don't they think about what might

27:29

happen it's they might experience caught

27:31

not when they actually do and.

27:33

why my people When

27:36

greatest, we harmed by really agree

27:38

to have their cases diverted into as community

27:41

based solution, well, because.

27:43

When you are homes and you are somebody who's

27:45

been victimized, we're very pragmatic

27:48

people.

27:49

He also made in the world and some

27:51

of us had been the way the criminal punishment

27:53

the some takes years to go

27:55

through and navigate and then simply clenched

27:57

to be in a position where you have to go and. Then.

28:00

bikes and then to have you even get

28:02

to the point of trial where they like

28:04

potentially no conviction and the, and you

28:06

said five years of your life and people"

28:09

Just don't want that they want to get on

28:11

with their lives, they want to have access

28:13

to resources they need to seal, and

28:16

they want to make store set the person.

28:18

Who harm them doesn't do the other people

28:21

and to think there's a potential. Wait.

28:24

Wait, somebody will work with somebody who's cause

28:26

harm to figure out why they did

28:28

it to figure out how to be

28:30

able to stop them from doing it to give them.

28:32

Other resources to be able to see us

28:35

like people are like, okay let's

28:37

blow bear, make minute and will

28:39

be down for that to happen" So

28:41

I think we underestimate

28:43

what people. Actually, will

28:45

do when offered more than

28:48

spit's wave of prison or nothing.

28:51

Yeah because, When

28:53

people are harmed in our culture, the vast

28:55

majority of them don't worry, call the police. The

28:58

vast majority of them choose nothing over

29:00

the current system exactly, and think

29:03

that one of the other points you made

29:05

is that.

29:06

People who had been denied protection under

29:08

the law desperately wants a law

29:11

to live up to with promises. It's

29:13

a why do you think that is and how do we get

29:15

past that? Do

29:17

we get past that?

29:19

However, I think it's hard to imagine getting past

29:21

the reason why is because that

29:24

had been conflated with what it means

29:26

to be a city. Though we

29:28

have the difference between the. These

29:31

black women over the years in

29:33

the period of time that you're talking about in the nineteenth

29:35

century who are working

29:38

actively harmed by the state

29:40

which treated them as chattel. Who

29:43

then are making a pure to that very

29:45

state for protection? Yeah.

29:49

No, it really can't sit

29:51

down. are being white, but we

29:53

deserve protection from the sake of that's

29:55

what citizens get" Certain

29:57

to the get, we want that to. Right,

30:00

and that bifurcation has

30:02

never been able could be. Together,

30:06

in way that as uncomfortable for particular

30:08

goods to people, particularly I'm talking here

30:10

about black people in the country, is to cut

30:13

me, be appealing to system that is

30:15

trying to kill you. In

30:18

warm, gift and then. Emma,

30:21

source of lot of trauma for

30:23

people. So

30:25

I don't know think it's in need.

30:29

I've been thinking and want a big question

30:31

I'm always trying to wrestle with is

30:33

like what if freedom for black

30:36

people. In the U West

30:38

actually looked like freedom from

30:40

policing rather than freedom

30:42

to be policed worse freedom

30:45

to ah have the police corporate

30:47

tax it's. hard to turn

30:49

something that purpose was actually

30:52

Police, you'and and serve value.

30:55

And to protect other people's property it's.

30:57

hard to turn that then into a quote

30:59

protection unit or people We're.

31:02

Actually, the people that were

31:04

intended to be veiled, I

31:06

think that's part of the struggle here, he

31:09

makes total sense to me that people very

31:11

much wanted and even today. hear

31:13

people say things like, "You know, we deserve

31:16

protection and we deserved freedom and I'm like,

31:18

yes, you absolutely do" And

31:21

as it's currently constituted, the take

31:23

can't provide that you.

31:27

mariam is very aware of the failures

31:30

of many institutions we live in interact

31:32

with. There is one place is more

31:34

optimistic about. The public

31:36

library. Maryam

31:39

is currently and library school and

31:41

believe that public libraries are institutions

31:43

with the potential to advance freedom.

31:48

Comey the library in the U.S.

31:51

Is one of the most

31:54

it's, the most value tory institution

31:57

that then created. in the sense

31:59

that

32:00

Yeah, it began as

32:02

an exclusionary faith and then exclusionary

32:04

place. Great for black people

32:07

in this country I, think

32:09

that the public library is

32:11

one of the very few places in the country

32:14

Or you can walk in. Then

32:16

time. Then no money.

32:19

And you can you been read with an object

32:21

that has the power to unleash your imagination?

32:24

How are you into another world

32:26

to me that magical? The

32:28

a place where you don't have to be good

32:31

student. Then you just need to be learner.

32:34

Than it is in. You should ban have

32:36

been foreclosed the possibility of an otherwise

32:38

world. And we

32:41

don't need to romanticize library. But

32:44

we can make them prefigure it and. An

32:46

immi age it's and really inspired

32:49

by the idea of the public library.

32:52

And I really want us to fight to

32:54

fully realized that protect that public.

32:58

And so. And vibe reason: like

33:00

all institutions under capitalism, their

33:02

sights of struggle, of course, and the see

33:04

that when people fighting library board

33:06

banning books trying to do all that other kind

33:08

of stuff, but really a free library

33:11

is revolutionary notion. My

33:13

first job out of college and I graduated

33:15

in that really ninety cents, McGill

33:18

was AH to work at County College

33:20

Library adjacent to the Samberg

33:22

Center on as an information

33:24

specialist, so it's a full circle

33:26

my. Pretty, I love it so

33:29

fight.

33:29

The institutions seems like it would

33:31

be discouraging and it could push people

33:34

to fatalistic thinking. What you

33:36

say, hope is a discipline.

33:38

The story to tell him the season all

33:41

revolve around black Americans finding themselves

33:43

in this kind of holding pattern, as

33:45

Jim Crow is being built up around them so they can't

33:48

yet they don't yet have the power.

33:50

They need to set a fight this US to bring

33:52

it on down assault, or

33:54

last question is this: how do those

33:56

of us who say we want and believe in freedom

33:58

and justice? retained a

34:00

hope that it's. That death in hard

34:03

in dark time. Hope

34:05

as it gets a plan for me.

34:07

It help you, I think it's Rebecca Solnit

34:09

that says that hope isn't a substitute

34:11

for action. The basis for

34:14

it. And I really agree

34:16

with that I. also talk

34:18

to people all the train about the fact that i don't

34:21

have hope actually that do

34:23

hope You know, it

34:25

can ask it. That that I can meet

34:27

you, Kerry. It's not

34:30

an emotion. The practice.

34:33

A materialist factor. And

34:36

that. They are doing whole mean

34:38

showing up. Showing up

34:40

for myself and showing up for other

34:42

people every single day

34:45

on a regular basis. Like

34:48

nothing is offensive. And for

34:50

me again I think.

34:52

that A lot of

34:54

time and subtle how cynical

34:57

people are. They often

34:59

trimmed, they're protected. The over cynicism

35:02

it's. a nice imperative actually imperative virtue

35:05

The I'm fan of and cynical people.

35:08

Who do? Jeff Goodby,

35:10

their inaction by suggesting that nothing

35:12

will actually chains. How

35:15

ridiculous it is? Even

35:18

say that can, everything is changing

35:20

all the time. I

35:22

think you need that.

35:24

Way of being in the world up

35:26

being and in a call. He

35:29

is. That sincerity is a virtue.

35:32

The contacted doing hopes those

35:34

think I'll help you should be able to navigate

35:37

difficult time. Hard,

35:39

frightened and what people sometimes

35:41

called dark time, so I don't think.

35:43

I'm a really dark.

35:45

And it matter so much, you know, and

35:47

I think that. An enemy world

35:50

couldn't have done what she did.

35:52

He was cynical, ah, a lovely,

35:55

you know, she was committed to building world

35:57

that she might not live in, see

35:59

news. He was doing that. And. He

36:02

knew it because she was living that moment. Kid

36:05

reared in to be born. The

36:08

need to sixty three. Right?

36:11

He born during the civil war.

36:14

He weren't you parents were formerly

36:16

inflate people. If

36:18

he had a vision of what would go.

36:22

I mean a lot. The clinical people

36:24

shot. Nothing's gonna change

36:27

it, it is, as it always was. Why

36:30

actually? Your existence

36:33

proof that it's lie. Your

36:35

weight right now we are not living in

36:37

that people. have

36:40

passed like how the people you're talking about talking

36:42

the series to make that though

36:45

And what slap in the face to ban

36:47

and they are work and their legacy each I've

36:49

spent lifetime so far call

36:51

creating faces with and for young people

36:53

to practice new social relations

36:56

and to learn how to step into their

36:58

power and transform their condition. Though

37:01

it clear to me. That didn't happening

37:03

all the time. It everywhere

37:06

it if people were allied last year,

37:08

they saw that. Hundreds things

37:10

happen alongside in parallel to the table

37:12

and we get.

37:20

Mary. Ann Arbor is an organizer educated

37:23

in future library and you, can

37:25

keep up with a work on website Mariam

37:28

Kaaba that all, her

37:30

book for adults and children. Are

37:32

available everywhere including public,

37:35

library the

37:37

stories we tell this season so that they are

37:39

many different ways to these freedom

37:42

and. exercise help from

37:44

the better know

37:46

The way to White House

37:50

is. to turn the light of truth

37:52

upon

37:53

Somebody must. show

37:56

that the afro american race is

37:58

more send a guess Any?

38:01

And it seems to have fallen upon

38:04

me to. do so To

38:07

the unexpected.

38:08

The Baron Lukens was place game, the flow

38:10

and wash of all Manhattan's raciest

38:13

made life. Not all of them

38:15

agreed on what that freedom could look like.

38:18

Or how to get there? In all

38:20

these things that are purely social.

38:22

"We can be as separate as the things

38:25

get one as the hand in all

38:27

things essential to mutual

38:29

progress every dollar given to

38:31

Booker & Washington Institute at the recent

38:34

meeting in New York. Is a nail

38:36

in the cost of negro Liberals,

38:38

it is that the bottom of

38:40

life we must begin.

38:43

And not at the top

38:45

naturally, the bumptious, irritated

38:48

young black intelligentsia of the day

38:50

declared: "I don't give a damn what book

38:52

Washington thinks this is what I

38:54

think and have a

38:56

right to think"

38:58

The ordinary people equity build

39:01

lives, they can only and vicious. Changed

39:03

the course of history. They did

39:05

it. Then get it.

39:08

And when the stories are of real people who

39:10

was passed through real suffering and have

39:12

achieved real triumphs, my

39:14

admiration goes beyond all balance,

39:17

everything that has been done once may be done

39:19

again. And some day, some man real.

39:21

The what one before his time has accomplished

39:24

will do all that and more.

39:27

What we can learn from the freedom fighters

39:29

who came before us and our alongside

39:31

us is that we can envision a more just

39:34

world and work towards it

39:36

even if we don't think we'll see it in our lifetime.

39:40

Free black future of the vision I haven't

39:43

mine people, can, live

39:46

Secure lives can fulfill

39:49

themselves as individuals as members of

39:51

communities can, flourish

39:54

in can thrive and however manner they want.

39:57

free of hierarchy and freedom

40:00

To be fully human whatever,

40:03

one's, sexuality,

40:06

or, gender or race

40:09

or particularly for black people you

40:11

know I think of our, communities and our schools

40:14

and am for a

40:17

and world where they are good. places

40:19

to educate black children are

40:22

will they'll be supported Not

40:26

only and for the resources the front of them but in

40:28

terms of the, stories that they are told

40:30

about the arm what they're capable of doing

40:33

They don't have to run themselves into the ground

40:35

and they don't have. to grind

40:37

and they don't have to fight

40:38

For everything that they have

40:40

a one hundred something like specifically

40:42

blacks about five, remember him, I think that black

40:45

history can provide weight of

40:47

thinking about what that might look like in

40:49

practice.

40:58

Freedom is a production of see him.

41:00

up

41:09

kneel on can, lead to

41:12

is our senior producer

41:14

Sounds of in mastering by

41:17

Molten Heart showing, the episode

41:19

art by Clinton who shit. you

41:22

can play more information about the show Actually

41:24

the car.

41:51

What can you see outside your window right

41:53

now, Sagebrush, you see, tumbleweeds,

41:56

new, my even see a coyote? The an eagle

41:59

I had a cat.

42:00

There are rocking chair and I will sit on my front

42:02

porch have a beautiful apartment

42:04

is looked out on the ocean whack those

42:06

kids play was my grandbabies

42:09

running around here.

42:12

Oh, live in all sorts of places.

42:15

I don't care if I'm living in the basement

42:17

porn addict or in a mansion

42:20

because I know where are worse.

42:22

That most of us want the same thing

42:24

how. would you define

42:27

the word I would define as the says

42:29

he feels safe. They'd come to

42:31

a while.

42:34

I'm Stephanie Flu and thanks to you we're

42:36

back with homemade season sale, ten

42:38

new episodes, ten news stories

42:41

about the meaning of home. It

42:44

was a marriage so. Feeling

42:46

they have.

42:47

The own space, like when you open

42:49

the door for you, want to feel

42:51

to my so relaxed, to want to feel

42:54

calm, you want to so excited.

42:56

I come from the navajo Nation

42:59

once picked up a basketball I definitely felt

43:01

like I, was home. home

43:06

made new episodes every

43:08

other monday listened in your podcast

43:10

up

43:11

Did you ever think that this would

43:13

be your view?

43:15

Never so what habit well,

43:18

and