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0:55

What is CBT and how does it

0:57

work? What do

0:59

you feel is the reason for that? Is

1:01

it a cultural sickness? Do

1:04

you ever deal with thoughts of anxiety

1:06

or depression? What would

1:09

your magic wand wish be for the planet?

1:19

I always like to start these off with, you

1:21

know, what are you excited about? What's exciting

1:24

you these days? This is

1:26

probably just about the most

1:28

exciting time in my life, to be honest

1:30

with you, for a couple

1:33

of reasons. First, when

1:35

I started out in psychiatry,

1:39

way back in the 1970s, I

1:42

had this fantasy

1:46

that, and I really want to create this thing, that

1:48

someday there would be like booths

1:50

in grocery stores or various places

1:53

that you could just go into and then there

1:55

would be a hologram of a shrink there, this

1:58

tremendously talented shrink.

1:59

who would talk to you and be

2:02

extremely helpful to you. And

2:05

I've always wanted to create an electronic

2:08

version of myself and

2:11

make that available to people. And

2:13

over the years, you know, after

2:16

Feeling Good came out in 1980, and that really described

2:22

what in the day was tremendous revolutionary

2:26

advances in psychotherapy

2:28

for depression and anxiety.

2:32

And then there's been 40, 50 years

2:35

of research and development since that time.

2:37

So there's new innovative techniques

2:40

that are even more powerful than the techniques

2:42

I had in those days. And so

2:44

I thought, man, if we could just get an electronic

2:46

version of this, we could make it available

2:49

to people all over the world. And

2:52

now that's kind of becoming a reality

2:54

because some fellows

2:56

approached me three years ago, Jeremy

2:59

Carmel and some others who have joined

3:02

us. And we're creating that now. And

3:05

we have a kind of an electronic version

3:08

of me. And now that AI has come in,

3:10

you can hardly tell that it's not me having

3:13

a live therapy session with

3:15

people. I've gotten in my own work

3:17

to where

3:19

when I work with people, for the last 20, 25 years,

3:23

I just been working for

3:25

people for free kind of volunteer

3:29

work you might say, but I

3:31

always only see people for one, two

3:33

hour session. And I try to

3:35

complete a course of psychotherapy in two

3:38

hours. So if they're depressed,

3:40

they'll become completely undepressed

3:43

or whatever they're struggling with. They'll

3:45

actually do that. And if

3:48

this electronic version will

3:50

be even nearly that effective,

3:53

it could just transform the whole world of psychology

3:55

and psychiatry and delivery,

3:58

mental health. When

4:01

I was at my hospital in Philadelphia, we

4:03

had an inner city hospital. The president

4:05

of the hospital said, David, would you create

4:08

a department of psychiatry for us? And

4:10

I said, well, yeah, I'll do that as part of

4:12

my volunteer work for

4:14

the university, but it has to be something

4:17

radically new. I said, there's been research

4:19

on my book, Feeling Good. And if you just

4:21

hand it to someone who's depressed, there's

4:23

a 50 to 65% chance that within four weeks

4:27

they'll be symptom free. And they won't need

4:29

treatment. And I said, we could

4:31

just have groups based

4:34

on that book. In fact, I could write a new book for

4:36

you. And it would be like 10 group

4:39

sessions for people who are depressed.

4:42

And then we could just treat

4:45

everyone in groups, and it would be really cheap.

4:48

And there are so many people in this neighborhood

4:51

who are struggling with drugs

4:53

and gangs and homelessness and depression.

4:58

And we could just build a tremendous program. And

5:00

so we built that program. And again, people

5:02

didn't have to pay to come into it,

5:04

but they would come in and it was an

5:06

overnight program, but it wasn't like a hospital.

5:09

It was just like an intensive learning thing. It

5:11

really went great. And then I was thinking,

5:13

boy, I wish I could get something like this

5:15

available to everyone. And

5:18

now it looks like we have an

5:21

awful lot of that created already. So

5:24

that's one of the things I'm really, really

5:27

excited about. First of all, that's

5:29

amazing that we're going to scale

5:31

you. You wrote the book on

5:33

CBT literally. And that's

5:35

awesome if people could get a chance to interact

5:38

even with a digital version of

5:40

yourself. And it'll last forever, right? I

5:42

mean, it'll learn through

5:44

machine learning, and it'll adapt. That's

5:47

technology you use to play. Yeah, that's

5:49

the thing. But I train human therapists.

5:52

They're really tough because they have to unlearn

5:54

all the things they've been taught, and they're kind of stubborn

5:56

sometimes. They're not as flexible as

5:59

they might be. But the computer does

6:01

exactly what I tell it to do. So

6:04

it's like I finally found my ideal

6:06

student. But if any of the listeners are interested,

6:09

the beta testing is just

6:11

completely free of charge. Almost

6:13

everything on my website is free. The

6:16

website is feelinggood.com and the app

6:19

is called the Feeling Good app. You can

6:21

sign up for a beta test on the

6:23

website if you're interested. You could do

6:26

it too if you were interested

6:28

and see what we're up to.

6:29

Oh, I'm definitely going to do it. Let

6:32

me say that I read your book

6:34

maybe five years ago, Feeling

6:36

Good, the new mood therapy, and

6:39

it changed everything. I mean, it opened my eyes.

6:41

I had been familiar with Albert Ellis,

6:44

with REBT, Rationally Motive

6:46

Behavioral Therapy, and that was super powerful

6:48

for me. His principles

6:51

of masturbation, I think he said,

6:53

masturbation is good and delicious. Masturbation

6:55

is evil and pernicious. That's

6:57

right. Yeah, that's good. To use

7:00

a must or a should. I loved Albert Ellis. Yeah?

7:02

I barely knew him. We had a mutual

7:04

admiration society and

7:06

I just admired him so much. And the app

7:09

created a special class

7:11

just devoted to him on,

7:13

you know, the shouldy class. We

7:19

just made a test of it on about 60

7:22

people.

7:24

And it's just a real short thing. You can complete

7:26

it in two hours. But it

7:29

caused tremendous reductions

7:31

in depression, anxiety,

7:34

like 50, 55, 65, 75% reductions in depression,

7:40

anxiety, inadequacy,

7:42

guilt, shame, loneliness,

7:45

hopelessness, and anger.

7:48

And it also caused about a 45% reduction

7:50

in perfectionism. Wow.

7:54

And so I was, because

7:56

shoulds are like into perfectionism. I shouldn't

7:58

be so screwed up. I should. be better than

8:00

I am. Other people shouldn't be so screwed up.

8:02

The world shouldn't be so screwed up and how

8:05

we make ourselves miserable with those things.

8:07

But Ellis was controversial and

8:10

I never thought he got as much credit as

8:12

he deserved.

8:15

But he

8:17

was totally awesome. He was a wild

8:20

guy. But

8:22

brilliant. I loved the songs that

8:25

he created. I wasn't around. I

8:29

think I was born in 88. I was

8:31

young, I guess, when he was doing his thing.

8:35

Just watching his interviews back, reading his book, kind

8:37

of stubbornly refused to make yourself miserable,

8:39

I think, was his book. I was

8:42

just gonna give more praise. He was just really

8:44

awesome. I think he was in his

8:45

own way enlightened and

8:47

he had a strong vision. He either loved

8:51

him or hated him because he

8:53

was just really extreme

8:56

in the things that he said. I just loved him. I

8:58

thought sometimes he was a little over the top. I

9:01

am too. Most of us are. But he

9:03

kindly invited me to go

9:06

and spend a day with him once in

9:08

New York. I lived in Philadelphia at the time

9:11

and he said I could bring a colleague. So

9:13

I brought a friend, Tony Bates, who was an

9:16

Irish guy who was working with

9:18

me for a while in Philadelphia at

9:21

the Presbyterian Medical Center

9:23

where I had my clinical practice.

9:26

He was just very kind and he

9:29

showed us around his Institute. Then

9:32

he sat down and said, do

9:34

you guys have any questions for

9:37

me? I said, well,

9:39

Wayne Dyer attended one of your workshops

9:43

and then stole your ideas and wrote your erroneous

9:45

zones and made millions of dollars. He never

9:48

gave you credit. He was kind of a con man,

9:51

really. Doesn't that piss you

9:53

off?

9:55

He said, I never got angry.

9:58

Well,

10:01

how do you do that? He said, well,

10:03

I just tell myself that

10:06

stealing my stuff, that

10:09

he's kind of an asshole and that's

10:12

what assholes should do. He's

10:14

just doing what he should do. I

10:17

don't get angry. And I was

10:19

thinking, give me an effing break. You don't get

10:21

angry. Of course you get angry. Why

10:24

don't you just admit it? But

10:26

anyway, it was really fun

10:28

to spend a day with

10:31

him. He took us to lunch with his then girlfriend

10:34

Janet Wolf. She was kind of a New

10:37

York high level,

10:39

something or other kind of the

10:41

wild in people or something. I

10:44

was pretty naive and

10:46

Tony Bates was pretty naive and we were just

10:48

starry eyed to have a chance to spend

10:50

a few hours with him. And

10:52

I always sing his praises and

10:55

he made a tremendous impact.

10:57

Beautiful. Wow. Thank you for

10:59

sharing that. That was awesome. That was a deep insight.

11:02

I had no idea that his

11:04

work was taking, I mean, because it's so

11:06

brilliant. I never read erroneous

11:09

zones and that his response, I

11:11

don't know if you believe it or not, whether or not he got angry,

11:13

but if he didn't get angry, it seems like he

11:16

just accepted it. He says an asshole is

11:18

doing what an asshole is doing.

11:20

Yeah, that's what he was. That's the idea he was trying

11:23

to convey. And that's what we're all trying to aspire

11:25

to. And we can

11:27

at best get there part of the time. Yeah.

11:30

And part of the time, you know, we are we kind of

11:33

are darker in herself

11:35

or are more less refined

11:38

and more irritable selves

11:40

come out. He gives us a path back

11:43

to enlightenment whenever we drift out of

11:45

enlightenment. So

11:48

I just love

11:50

it. He was a great teacher and

11:52

he walked the walk. He didn't just talk the

11:55

talk. I love that. That's the only

11:57

way to do it. And you do it too. Just

11:59

feeling.

11:59

your energy here and you know I've taken

12:02

a few courses from you I didn't kind of make myself

12:04

known but I've taken a few for

12:06

you to the CBT courses and it has

12:08

been tremendous for the listeners

12:11

that's great I'm so glad what

12:13

were they live was there a lot of yes

12:15

I'm putting you remember what city or what the

12:17

topic was or when it was you know they were live

12:20

I took two the second one was

12:22

for CBT practitioners

12:24

yeah

12:25

we went through everything the cognitive

12:28

distortions and how to remember what city

12:30

it was in or I don't remember

12:33

I'm not sure it was your who's the

12:35

your colleague that works with you

12:37

Jill Leavitt

12:38

yes yes

12:40

I know she was running I remember breaking out in the

12:43

groups but this was this was maybe maybe

12:45

oh yeah yeah breakout group yeah

12:47

yeah yeah I still work with Jill

12:50

we have a free Tuesday training

12:52

group if any of your listeners or

12:54

therapists or shrinks we've

12:57

had it for over over 20 years

12:59

at Stanford and it's Tuesday

13:01

nights from 5 to 7 p.m.

13:03

and people it's virtual so people

13:06

from all over the world can can join

13:08

it and we still do therapy together

13:10

Jill and I were gonna treat a fellow tonight

13:12

who's had crippling shyness

13:15

I think he's 40 and he's decided

13:19

it's time to get into

13:21

the dating world and and so

13:23

forth he's had a really rough background

13:25

and so we're gonna see

13:28

what we can do to turn his love

13:30

life from from rags to riches

13:33

love that it's just I love

13:35

working with people live

13:37

it's just it's such a fun

13:39

thing to do but I don't know if we're talking about

13:41

what we're supposed to be talking about maybe you could

13:43

shoot me some questions or something yeah let's

13:45

set the stage for the listeners

13:48

that don't know what CBT

13:50

is

13:50

I call it crushing bad thoughts it's

13:53

actually called cognitive behavioral therapy

13:56

what is CBT and how does it

13:58

work we've moved a little beyond

13:59

but that's a fantastic

14:02

starting place and it's still absolutely

14:06

wonderful. And

14:09

it's cognitive, that's the C,

14:12

B is behavioral therapy,

14:14

CBT. And

14:16

cognitive is just a fancy word

14:19

for a very simple meaning.

14:22

A cognition is a thought, it's the message

14:25

that you give yourself at every

14:27

moment. Like right now I'm telling myself,

14:29

wow, this guy Prince, yeah, he's,

14:32

what a tremendous fun guy

14:35

with a brilliant mind

14:37

and a fast wit and a

14:40

great spirit. And it's

14:42

so much fun to be here

14:44

and I'm so lucky to be here

14:47

and to be talking to this guy. And

14:49

that's a thought or a perception. And

14:51

that perception creates feelings of happiness.

14:54

And we often think, well, it's what's

14:56

happening to me in my life that makes

14:59

me feel happy or unhappy or miserable.

15:02

But the cognitive idea goes

15:04

back to the Greek Stoic

15:07

philosophers nearly 2000 years ago and

15:10

probably to the Buddha 500 years before that. But

15:15

Epictetus said, we're disturbed not by

15:17

events, not by things, not by what

15:19

happens, but by the views we take of them.

15:21

In other words, it's your thoughts that

15:23

create your negative feelings. When I first

15:26

heard that I was doing brain

15:28

research at the University

15:30

of Pennsylvania Medical School and I was

15:33

treating people with antidepressants because

15:35

that was the theory and

15:38

some people foolishly still

15:40

believe that theory that depression is due

15:42

to a chemical imbalance in the

15:44

brain. And our research showed pretty convincingly

15:47

that that's not true. And

15:50

I was given out drugs by the muscle

15:52

full to depressed people and I didn't

15:55

see much from antidepressants.

15:57

So I knew there was something rotten and deadly.

16:00

mark and then i was a research

16:02

fellow at the time i completed my

16:04

residency and i was doing

16:06

add a two year research grant and

16:09

the department chairman said you know there's

16:11

this new thing if you're unhappy with

16:14

antidepressants this guy aaron back

16:16

who was followed on the footsteps of

16:19

albert ellis and he calls it cognitive

16:22

therapy and he claims you can treat

16:24

depression by helping people

16:26

change the way they think they've

16:28

changed these negative thoughts i said that sounds

16:31

like so much bullshit to me that's

16:33

ridiculous that's so simple-minded

16:35

that's like norman vincent peale's power

16:37

of positive thinking i don't know if you've heard

16:39

of that book but that was a huge like

16:42

in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties

16:44

or something like that he said well why don't you

16:46

just go to his weekly seminar and

16:49

you can try it with a few of your patients

16:51

and just satisfy yourself that it doesn't work

16:53

and i thought that's a great idea so i started

16:55

going to these weekly seminars and

16:57

they had about maybe five six

16:59

people you know and no

17:01

one had heard of cognitive therapy and we

17:04

all thought it was a bunch of quackery so i

17:06

started trying it on really

17:09

severe patients and i had

17:11

a lot of them and i was stuck with most

17:13

of them because when i was taught

17:15

as a psychiatric resident it didn't work

17:17

you just have to express their feelings and

17:20

then you give them antidepressants and

17:23

i almost

17:24

never saw anyone recover

17:27

to be honest we would just talk

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that's gonna save you a lot of time and it's energy

17:57

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17:59

have that nice

19:59

started trying these

20:01

techniques

20:03

and

20:04

it blew my mind because the patient started

20:06

recovering really rapidly and asking

20:08

for more. One of the first women

20:10

I tried it on was an elderly

20:13

woman who was referred from the intensive

20:15

care unit. She'd made a suicide attempt

20:18

and barely survived and then they referred

20:20

her to me for follow-up treatment. So

20:23

I said, well, this would be certainly a good one to try

20:25

this new cognitive therapy. I

20:27

said in one of the weekly seminars, listen,

20:30

I have this new woman, maybe

20:32

I can try the cognitive therapy on her. And

20:35

she says that she's barely

20:37

survived a suicide attempt. How would

20:39

I treat her? And he says, well,

20:41

all of your feelings are caused by your thoughts.

20:44

So just ask her, what were you

20:46

thinking at the moment you attempted suicide?

20:49

I said, oh, that makes perfect sense.

20:51

So the next session I asked her and she said, well,

20:53

I was thinking that

20:55

I'm a worthless human being.

20:58

And I said, well, why do you think you're

21:00

a worthless human being? And she says, because I've

21:03

never, never accomplished anything

21:05

meaningful in my life. All I've ever done

21:07

is scrub people's floors

21:10

and I clean their houses for

21:12

a living. And that's the only thing I've ever accomplished.

21:15

And she said, so what am I supposed

21:17

to do? And I says, well,

21:20

wait until next week. I'll go

21:22

to another seminar and I'll ask

21:24

Dr. Beck what I'm supposed to do with that information.

21:27

So she said, okay. So I went

21:30

and asked him and he

21:32

said, oh, well, that's easy. Just ask her to list

21:34

five things she has accomplished. And

21:36

I thought, gosh, that sounds logical. So

21:39

I went back and she said, what'd you find out? And

21:42

I said, well, Dr. Beck said that you

21:44

should list five things that you have

21:46

accomplished or just tell me about five things

21:48

you have accomplished in your life. And

21:51

she says, well, see, that's just the thing. I've

21:53

never accomplished anything worthwhile just

21:56

scrubbing people's floors. am

22:00

I supposed to do? And I said, Oh,

22:02

well,

22:03

maybe you'll think of something. Maybe you can do

22:06

it for homework, you know, and

22:08

just if you can think of something, just jot them down

22:10

on a piece of paper. And I went back

22:13

the next week, I had forgotten that I gave

22:15

her that assignment and I asked her about her antidepressant,

22:18

as I always did at the beginning of the session

22:20

and just asked her to express her feelings

22:23

and tell me what's going on that my patients always

22:25

did and nothing ever came out of it. And about

22:28

halfway through the session, she

22:30

said, Well, are you going to ask me about

22:32

my homework? And I said, Oh, I

22:34

forgot about it. But we're able to think of

22:36

anything that you've accomplished. And she said, I

22:38

wrote some things on a piece of paper and she gave

22:40

me a piece of paper with, you know, seven, eight or

22:43

more things on it. I started

22:46

reading them out loud. And she said, Well,

22:48

number one, I forgot that all of my

22:51

family died in the Nazi concentration

22:54

camp. But I

22:56

escaped and smuggled

22:58

my children out of Latvia.

23:00

And we made it to the United States. And

23:03

I figured, well, maybe, maybe

23:06

that was an accomplishment of sorts.

23:08

I worked scrubbing floors

23:11

and cleaning people's houses to put

23:14

food on our table and to have a place

23:16

to sleep. And my son just graduated

23:18

number one in his class from the Harvard Business

23:21

School. So I think, well,

23:23

maybe that's an accomplishment. Number

23:25

three, she said, I forgot

23:28

that I can speak five foreign languages

23:30

fluently. And the number four,

23:33

she said, and I'm a gourmet chef,

23:35

she had all these things written down.

23:38

And I had tears going down

23:40

my cheeks. And I said, Well, how

23:42

do you reconcile that with this belief

23:44

that you've never done anything worthwhile

23:47

or accomplished anything worthwhile in your life? And

23:49

she says, Dr. Burns, it

23:52

doesn't compute it doesn't make sense. In

23:54

fact, I can't even understand

23:57

where I got that idea in the

23:59

first place. that i was worthless

24:01

it's not really true and i said how

24:03

are you feeling now. She

24:06

says i'm suddenly feeling a lot

24:08

better do you have some more of these techniques

24:11

and i said well no that's the only

24:13

one i know but wait till next week i'll learn

24:15

another one this week and that's how i learned initially.

24:18

And that's what's sold me on it and then

24:20

i but i didn't have many patients because

24:23

i was just starting my practice so no one

24:25

kind of knew. Who i was or anything

24:27

i've been doing research in the laboratory

24:30

you know like sixty hours a week for. Couple

24:33

of years before that i said well you know i think

24:36

i'll use my extra time to write this

24:39

up for people because you know

24:41

we had all the cognitive distortions and all

24:43

these things that were helpful for patients

24:45

to know about. And that's why i wrote feeling

24:48

good and then you know a whole lot has

24:51

evolved from those days but that's what

24:53

cognitive therapy is you feel

24:55

the way you think you see she was telling herself.

24:58

Something that was just just horrible

25:01

it wasn't that her life is no good it was

25:03

that she was thinking about it in a

25:05

very negative way and then the other

25:08

two ideas of cognitive therapy

25:10

is that when you're depressed but you're

25:12

telling yourself isn't even true. You're

25:15

just starting things like with black

25:18

or white thinking i'm a total failure

25:20

or self blame i've never accomplished

25:23

anything or. Disqualify

25:25

your body feel worthless so i must be

25:28

worthless or discounting the positive what

25:30

i've done doesn't count

25:32

and all of this kind of thing and then. That

25:35

was phenomenal to me also

25:37

that we tell ourselves

25:40

these lies. And

25:42

then the final thing is you can change

25:44

the way you feel the fact the very moment

25:46

you stop believing those distorted thoughts

25:49

and that very moment your feelings will change

25:51

and that's what happened to release this, no

25:54

elderly woman and i saw that over and over

25:56

again and i said this is a

25:59

message that could. really change change

26:01

the world and it did when i wrote

26:03

feeling good. You know there

26:05

were about a dozen of us in the

26:07

world cognitive therapist and then since

26:09

that came out cognitive

26:11

therapy has become the

26:13

most popular form of psychotherapy

26:16

and human history and the most research

26:18

form of psychotherapy. Meanwhile

26:20

i zoomed off in new directions

26:23

like i still use all those wonderful

26:25

cognitive techniques and i've developed over

26:27

a hundred of them. What we've

26:29

developed new ideas in

26:32

addition because some people resist

26:35

the kind of fight the therapist yes

26:37

but the therapist and so we've developed

26:40

i've developed new techniques

26:42

to melt away. Resistance

26:45

in people and this has ushered

26:47

in an era where ultra rapid

26:49

change is now possible we

26:51

don't have to wait weeks or

26:54

months to in most cases to profoundly

26:57

change the way you think and feel.

27:00

Incredible

27:01

incredible we've got all these

27:04

new techniques we've got all of these

27:06

medications in the world.

27:09

And yet we still see depression

27:12

rising and rising and rising anxiety

27:15

rising and rising and rising what

27:17

do you feel is the reason for that is

27:19

it a cultural sickness. Is

27:22

it how we're taught

27:23

to think i don't know the answer i do

27:26

a lot of research and that's another

27:28

great thing about having the app if we get a lot

27:30

of data when we do the app

27:32

because we measure people's feelings and thoughts

27:35

every five or ten minutes while they're

27:37

using the app we've been able to. Learn

27:39

how people change and what i've learned

27:41

is how to help people change the way you

27:44

think and feel when it comes

27:46

to causes of things i

27:48

don't know i think we still don't know the

27:50

cause of depression or anxiety

27:52

you know a lot of people are looking to

27:55

social factor and all the hatred

27:57

to that's going around socially.

28:00

Half the people hating themselves and half the people

28:03

hating somebody else. It's

28:05

just a,

28:06

you know, kind of a

28:07

frightening era that we live in. I don't

28:09

know to what extent

28:12

depression and anxiety and all this self-abuse

28:15

we heap on ourselves is

28:17

genetic or whether it's learned.

28:21

I can tell you what Ellis thought. Okay,

28:23

yeah. I'm curious. What did he think? He

28:26

thought it was 100% genetic, that you're born a perfectionist

28:28

or whatever. I thought that was interesting.

28:31

And I wouldn't rule

28:33

that out at all, but there's

28:36

probably powerful genetic things going

28:38

on. There's all these social factors. There's

28:41

all of the hatred that if you're

28:43

the wrong color or the wrong gender,

28:46

or you're not living up

28:48

to somebody's idea of

28:50

how human beings are supposed to be, there's

28:53

going to be people hating on you. And like

28:57

the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis,

29:00

he seems to want

29:02

to put people in boxes

29:05

and judge them and hate them and punish

29:08

them. And we're in a really frightening

29:10

era to my way of thinking. I

29:12

thought of offering free woke

29:15

classes to

29:16

people in Florida.

29:18

Free woke classes. I love

29:20

that. Woke is so awful. And then what

29:22

the classes would be on would be Jesus's

29:25

servant on the Mount, which is all

29:27

about compassion and acceptance

29:29

and love and warmth. And

29:32

people don't want that. Oh,

29:35

that's bullshit stuff. We want to kick ass.

29:37

We want to kill people. We

29:39

want to put people down. And there's

29:42

just a lot of that. And if you're like

29:44

in high school or something and you're not

29:47

the way your folks supposed to be,

29:49

like you're pretty awesome. And you maybe have

29:52

always been awesome and popular and

29:54

you're a musician and stuff.

29:56

But an awful lot of us weren't like that.

29:58

And we're, you know, kind of like the

30:01

unpopular kids and there can be just so

30:03

much pain and suffering that the people,

30:06

you know, are subject to.

30:09

I don't understand. I don't even have a cell

30:11

phone, but I'm such an elderly demented

30:14

fart. But you know, I guess

30:16

there's just so much hatred going around and

30:18

so much meanness through social media

30:20

and things like that. But my focus

30:23

is more on

30:25

rapid

30:26

recovery, rapid transformation

30:28

of people, you know,

30:30

because other people's negative

30:33

thoughts or feelings or statements

30:35

about you can't affect you unless you

30:38

buy into them. So there's a tremendous amount

30:40

you can do to change the way you think and

30:42

feel and experience great joy and convey

30:45

that joy to others. And

30:47

that's kind of

30:49

where I've committed myself. It's

30:52

very healing, these therapies, these processes

30:55

to the individual and by and large to

30:57

their community and to the world. My whole

30:59

philosophy is that there's only two reasons

31:01

why we do anything, only two energies and

31:04

we either do something out of the energy of fear

31:06

or the energy of love. And when you start

31:09

talking about divisiveness or hatred,

31:12

this is a restricted energy

31:14

of fear of people trying to

31:17

protect something. And love

31:19

is more of an open energy.

31:22

And one of my favorite Zen teachers, Thich

31:24

Nhat Hahn, he said, understanding

31:27

is love's other name.

31:29

And it's only when we understand... Well, tell me,

31:32

how do you do what you do? Because you've got

31:34

a fantastic message and you've got a fantastic

31:37

following and you're in a position to influence a

31:39

lot of people. What's been your secret sauce?

31:42

How have you become so effective at what you

31:44

do? I think it's the self knowledge. I

31:46

wasn't that popular kid

31:49

in school. Oh, you weren't? No,

31:53

no, no, no, no, no, no. I can wear the mask

31:56

and act very extroverted,

31:58

but I naturally...

31:59

lean towards a more introverted lifestyle.

32:03

My upbringing and that allowed

32:06

me to come into contact with these

32:08

questions of who am I? Where do these

32:10

thoughts come from? Are these thoughts real? Really

32:13

trying to dissect what are they? They appear

32:15

as though they're sound. And

32:17

so I got into anthropology, I got into

32:21

psychology, psychotherapy,

32:23

I've studied all the spiritual traditions

32:26

and they're all kind of saying the same

32:28

thing. I study stoicism and

32:31

when you change the way you look at things, those things

32:33

you look at change and it's really

32:35

about getting in touch with

32:38

the self for me. So I think my

32:40

success came from understanding

32:43

that I'm not these thoughts, that I'm not these negative

32:46

thoughts, that these thoughts, they come and they go

32:48

and I am the

32:50

witness of them and I can choose which

32:53

ones to believe in. You

32:55

have a process that you talk about

32:57

called challenging the thoughts and

32:59

it's very powerful. Yeah. Very

33:02

powerful. I want you to tell a story because

33:04

once I, when I heard you tell this story, I

33:07

was crying, I was in tears and you

33:09

told it during one of the courses that

33:12

you gave and it was about a woman

33:14

who had ovarian

33:16

cancer that you visited.

33:19

Oh yeah. I'd love for you

33:21

to share that. I was just, we've got

33:23

her in her app and I was just working on

33:25

her story with a colleague this morning.

33:28

Wow.

33:28

Wow. And I'd be glad to tell

33:31

that because yeah, but

33:33

I just want to say that you're so very likable

33:36

because you're humble and positive and

33:38

warm and open and you're kind of a blessing,

33:40

but in the early days, someone, a

33:42

colleague said, would you mind, we have

33:46

an administrator in the department of psychiatry

33:48

and she's pretty depressed.

33:51

She just was, you know, admitted

33:54

to the hospital and she's got

33:57

a terminal ovarian cancer and she's

33:59

really depressed. and could your cognitive

34:01

therapy maybe help her? And

34:04

I knew who she was. She was this

34:07

woman who was a very lovely

34:09

woman. She was the kind of person who

34:11

liked to help other people, help

34:14

the students with their research. And she

34:17

had a big house in Upper Derby.

34:19

She was in her 40s.

34:22

She had never married, but she had several

34:24

relatives living with her who she was

34:26

helping out. They had disabilities

34:29

like multiple sclerosis. And

34:32

I said, sure, I'd love to see

34:34

her and we'll see her today

34:37

and to see if I can do anything to help

34:39

her. And so I went

34:41

and saw her at her

34:43

bedside. And she

34:45

had gone to her six months

34:48

OBGYN exam and they found a

34:50

mass in her pelvis and said,

34:52

we want you to come into the hospital so we can

34:54

biopsy it. And it was ovarian cancer.

34:57

And it was kind of terminal.

35:01

And in those days, maybe, I think

35:03

today they might have some treatments, but they

35:05

didn't at that time. And they

35:07

said she had two years to live.

35:10

And I gave her the back

35:12

depression test, which was the one I was using

35:14

in those days and showed severe

35:17

depression. And she and I connected

35:19

really well, really rapidly.

35:22

And I said, well, would

35:25

you want some help if I could give you some

35:27

help today with your depression? And

35:29

she said, oh, absolutely. She would.

35:32

And I said, well, tell me what you're

35:34

thinking. The cancer is a bad thing,

35:37

but what makes people depressed

35:39

is the messages we give ourselves, not

35:42

the actual amount. And

35:44

she said, well, I've been telling myself

35:46

three things. Number one, I'm letting

35:48

my family down. Number two,

35:51

they can't survive without me.

35:54

And number three, it's my fault that

35:56

I got cancer.

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item at regular price. You

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can see all those so-called cognitive

37:25

distortions or thinking errors in her

37:27

thoughts right away, like self-blame,

37:30

it's my fault, I got cancer, I'm letting my

37:32

family down, mind reading, she's assuming

37:34

that her family feels let down,

37:37

all

37:38

or nothing thinking, if I'm

37:42

not helping people all the time, then

37:44

I'm a failure, and hidden should

37:46

statements, I should never need the help of

37:48

others, I should always be helping others, all

37:50

this stuff. But to cut to

37:53

the quick, I said to her, in

37:55

the app, I call her Amy, so we'll use

37:57

that name, I said, Amy. Amy,

38:01

let me ask you a question. Let's imagine

38:03

that there was a woman right next

38:05

to you here in the hospital,

38:07

and she was in a private room, but say there's

38:10

another patient in here,

38:13

and that she is just like you. She looks

38:15

like you, and she's your age. She's

38:17

in her 40s, and she suddenly

38:20

was given the diagnosis of terminal

38:22

ovarian cancer. What

38:25

I'd like you to do is turn to her right now

38:28

and talk to her the way you're talking

38:30

to yourself. Just say

38:33

those exact things. Tell her you're

38:35

letting your family down. They'll

38:37

never survive after you're

38:40

gone. They can't survive without you. And

38:43

it's your fault you got cancer. She

38:45

looked at me really puzzled, and she

38:47

said, oh, Dr. Burns, I couldn't

38:49

say those things to another person.

38:52

And I said, well, why not, Amy?

38:54

And she said, well, because I'm

38:56

a Christian lady, and

38:59

I don't believe in hurting people.

39:02

And that would be cruel to say

39:04

something like that to a woman

39:06

who's just gotten cancer. And then

39:09

I says, well, if your philosophy

39:11

is that you don't

39:14

hurt people, you're hurt people. It

39:16

seems to me like you're hurting yourself because

39:18

you're talking to yourself like that. And

39:21

she said, oh, I see what you mean. And I

39:24

was pointing out to her, she was like, so many

39:26

of us have the double standard. When she's

39:28

upset, she's beating up on herself. And

39:30

when someone else is hurting, she's very

39:33

compassionate. And I said, but since

39:35

you're religious, doesn't it say in the

39:37

Bible, the truth shall make you free?

39:41

And I wasn't sure about that. I was guessing.

39:44

But she said, oh yeah, that's in the Bible. And

39:47

so I said, well, do you think it's important

39:49

to tell the truth? Are you the kind of person

39:51

who lies or tells the truth? And

39:54

she says, oh, I always tell

39:56

the truth. And I said, well, then you have to speak the

39:58

truth to this woman. you

40:00

because you told me you believe those three thoughts

40:02

a hundred percent. Since are

40:04

a hundred percent true for you they must be a hundred

40:06

percent true for her so turn to her

40:09

right now and say it's your fault

40:11

you got cancer you're letting your family

40:13

down they'll never survive without

40:15

you. She says doctor i still

40:17

can't say those things and i said

40:20

why not i mean she says cuz

40:22

they're not true. Tell

40:25

me why she says well in the first place

40:27

her family doesn't feel that down. They

40:30

love her they feel sad they're

40:33

going to miss her when they lose her they are grateful

40:35

for all that she's done for them and i said

40:37

how much do you believe that and she says a hundred

40:39

percent. I said

40:41

how much do you believe this idea i'm letting

40:44

my family down she says that doesn't

40:46

make sense. This is but

40:48

how about the best when you said they have

40:50

disabilities and this must be true

40:52

to tell her that your family can't

40:55

survive without you and she said no that's rubbish

40:57

also nice and why is that she says well they

40:59

have good coping they're strong people i

41:01

got been helping them but they help themselves

41:04

and they'll survive after i'm after

41:06

i'm gone. I said okay

41:09

but you know it's your fault you got over

41:11

in cancer so tell her that it's

41:13

her fault that's baloney too

41:15

i says why is that she says scientists don't know

41:17

the cause of ovarian cancer i couldn't give it

41:19

to myself if i wanted to. And

41:22

i said how much do you believe those thoughts now she

41:24

says i don't believe in metal i said well how

41:26

are you feeling now. She says

41:29

my depression is gone and that was

41:31

one of the fastest recoveries

41:33

i've seen all over the

41:36

years i've seen that type of thing happen.

41:39

More and more often

41:42

just really rapid recovery and it was so

41:44

hardwarming to be able to give her

41:46

that gift and i saw her from time to time

41:48

over the next two years her depression

41:51

didn't come back she continued

41:53

to work she felt happy she felt loved.

41:56

But sadly massive metastatic

41:59

cancer. here just

42:01

right on time two years later

42:03

and she was hospitalized again and and

42:06

i'd cardiac arrest and

42:08

in the hospital and it was sad

42:11

to lose somebody so. Loving

42:15

and so giving i felt at

42:17

least some small sense of joy

42:19

that she didn't have to spend the

42:22

last precious two years of her life

42:25

feeling depressed and anxious

42:27

and guilty and and ashamed and. And

42:30

worthless instead she felt worthwhile

42:32

and and loved and that's

42:35

kind of on a technical level how how

42:38

cognitive therapy works at the moment

42:40

you recognize that what you're telling yourself

42:43

isn't true. And

42:45

you crush those thoughts

42:48

your negative feelings will change on

42:51

a human level it's. You

42:53

know we all suffer when you can

42:56

touch the suffering of another person and and

42:58

give them the blessing of relief it's

43:01

a tremendous gift to. Who

43:04

the person that you're helping but also

43:06

tremendous gift when you're in the position

43:08

of being able to help the

43:11

healing for. For someone

43:14

i've been blessed in my career to see

43:17

that happen. Over and over

43:19

and over with people from all walks

43:21

of life and everyone is different we have different

43:23

skin colors different religious

43:26

beliefs are not religious

43:28

at all. Summer

43:30

you know very wealthy

43:32

and famous and some of people

43:35

i've worked with her homeless and you know sleep

43:37

on the sidewalks at night but this. This

43:40

inner dialogue that i'm not

43:42

good enough is something that an

43:45

awful lot of human beings have in common

43:47

and and turning

43:50

off that. Noising

43:52

in your head so you can feel

43:54

joy that that's kind of what

43:57

what i've

43:58

dedicated my life to.

43:59

And I think what you've dedicated your life to

44:02

as well, David, your story, it

44:04

reminded me of a Zen

44:07

Koan that I heard a few

44:09

years ago. And a

44:11

Zen Koan is basically a riddle.

44:14

And I don't know if you're familiar with them. Yeah. It's

44:17

a riddle that's meant to, it's

44:19

not meant to be answered with the logical

44:22

minds, it's a riddle meant to

44:24

be understood at a deeper place.

44:27

And so the Zen monks used to give

44:29

the disciples, these Zen Koans.

44:32

And if they got the Koan correct,

44:34

they would be immediately enlightened. But

44:37

usually they would, they would come

44:39

back and give them an answer. And then they

44:41

would get hit with a piece of bamboo and said, no,

44:43

go back and try to figure it out.

44:45

But your story reminded me of

44:48

a powerful Zen Koan that I heard

44:50

a few years ago. And the Koan is this.

44:53

So there is a man. And

44:56

he is hanging off

44:59

the side of a cliff on a tree,

45:01

on a tree branch by his teeth.

45:04

So he's hanging from this

45:06

branch by his teeth and his hands

45:09

and feet are bound, so

45:11

he can't move them. And he's slipping.

45:14

A small, tiny little monk walks

45:17

by and he says to the man,

45:19

he says, say the one thing

45:21

that will save your life. And

45:24

then he walks away.

45:26

So this is the... He says, save

45:28

the one thing that will save your life. Say the one

45:30

thing that will save your life.

45:32

And so this is the Koan,

45:35

right? And it's like, you

45:37

hear this Koan and it's like,

45:40

he can't say anything. If he opens his mouth,

45:42

he'll, you know, fall to his death.

45:45

So it's like, what's the, what's the answer

45:47

to this? This Koan, this riddle. And

45:50

the answer, I guess this is maybe

45:52

not an answer, but it's a resolution.

45:55

It's a, it's

45:57

a total acceptance. The

46:00

predicament because he's gonna fall

46:02

regardless right he's gonna absolutely

46:05

fall But from the time that he

46:07

lets go of the branch to the

46:09

time that he hits the ground He

46:12

has totally accepted his

46:14

predicament and he is Truly

46:17

lived in that short time span

46:19

of fully accepting where he is

46:22

without resistance Right without

46:24

any more negative thoughts about he shouldn't be

46:26

there. He should and In

46:29

that short time he has finally lived

46:31

so in essence he saves his life

46:33

and in that short time He has probably lived

46:36

more life than many people live in our

46:39

world today Yeah,

46:41

your story of her Accepting

46:44

the truth about her predicament

46:48

and not being a victim. Yeah

46:52

Yeah, saved

46:55

her life in those yeah in those two years

46:58

the I'm working

47:01

on Also in the last few days In

47:04

the app there's different classes for for

47:06

people on different topics and then an app that

47:08

they can use to work on their negative

47:11

thoughts anytime they're upset and But

47:15

I'm working on one on acceptance. It's

47:17

been the hardest one for me to write Because

47:21

it's a hard concept to To

47:24

get across And

47:26

so we're gonna beta test it Fairly

47:29

soon and see if it has any value if you

47:31

remind me I can you know I

47:33

can have you take this class and

47:35

let us know what you you think about

47:37

it but one of the things and and

47:40

that I that I am happy with

47:42

is that I Was doing and

47:45

one of my four-day intensives in

47:47

South San Francisco Conference Center and

47:49

it was for about 135 mental

47:52

health professionals to you know learn

47:55

this new team CBT as

47:58

much as they can and in four days And

48:00

just before lunch break i

48:03

asked for a volunteer just to demonstrate

48:05

a technique i'd been teaching them just like

48:08

a maybe a one minute demo

48:11

i'll be the patient you can be the shank

48:13

or something will show i don't i don't remember

48:15

what the technique was. What is

48:18

woman raised her hand and so

48:21

she came up and then when she got up on the

48:23

stage she started solving. And

48:26

i think she thought i was gonna do a live

48:29

therapy demonstration you know

48:32

takes two hours we had five

48:34

minutes before the lunch break and i said

48:36

my goodness i wasn't thinking

48:38

about. Try to treat

48:41

you seem to be feeling awfully sad

48:43

right now maybe i can at least give you a couple

48:46

minutes of support and you

48:48

know where before we break for lunch

48:50

and tell me what's what's bothering

48:52

you and she said well i come here.

48:56

I'm seeing all these really

48:58

talented therapist here to get this

49:01

training and. Lot of more

49:03

from stanford and i met one from harvard

49:05

and they all seem really like these high

49:08

powered advanced therapist which they're

49:10

not by the way but she was saying

49:12

it that way and. And she said

49:14

i'm way out of my league here at this workshop

49:17

she said i grew up in south los

49:19

angeles we're very poor was

49:21

a dangerous neighborhood. I

49:24

never had a chance to go to

49:26

any fancy schools i managed

49:28

to get through a community college and

49:30

get my my master's degree in counseling

49:32

i just feel like i'm a untrained

49:35

and. Uneducated and

49:38

second rate therapist and

49:40

she started to sobbing again and she

49:43

said i hope you can help me and i said

49:45

well listen in the next two minutes

49:47

or even by the end of the workshop

49:50

today. There's

49:52

no way that i can turn you into

49:55

a

49:55

you know what top.

49:57

Therapist you have only one choice

49:59

here you. you can either accept

50:01

the fact that you're a second

50:03

rate therapist and then

50:06

you can be a joyful second rate therapist.

50:08

Where you can condemn yourself

50:11

and be a miserable second rate therapist.

50:14

What, what would you prefer? She looked

50:16

confused and that was like a light bulb went on

50:18

in her head and she smiled and started laughing.

50:21

She said, I'll take the happy one. And

50:24

it was, I think that was the fastest

50:26

treatment I was ever involved in. She

50:28

went from sobbing to joy, just like

50:30

what you said in a flash like that. We

50:32

broke for lunch and then that

50:35

was the first miracle. And then the

50:37

second miracle happened after the

50:39

lunch. I, I demonstrated a technique

50:41

and had them break into twos for 20

50:44

or 30 minutes. And

50:46

one of you will be a patient and

50:49

describe a real problem in your life. And the other

50:51

can be a therapist. Try some of

50:53

these empathy techniques I've been demonstrating

50:56

and then we'll see how it goes. The

50:58

whole room broke up and everyone was, you know,

51:00

in, in

51:01

groups of two, one was expressing

51:04

problems and the other was trying to be

51:06

helpful. After that 30 minutes,

51:09

I said, uh, now would any

51:12

of you want to tell us what that was like for

51:14

you if you were the patient or the therapist

51:16

and, and how it went, this woman

51:18

was raising her hand. And so I

51:21

called on her first and, and she

51:23

says, I want you to know what I think I was

51:25

just treated by the greatest therapist in

51:27

the world. It was totally mind

51:29

blowing experience. And my

51:32

therapist just, just changed my

51:34

life in 30 minutes. And

51:36

I said, who was she? And then she pointed

51:38

it and it was this young woman from that

51:41

had come up before the break from South Los

51:43

Angeles. And I just

51:45

started crying when I saw that and

51:48

everyone stood up and gave

51:50

her a standing ovation

51:53

and she had just been selling herself so

51:55

short,

51:56

you know, and thinking I'm, I'm not good

51:58

enough and looking at all of.

51:59

flaws and faults and

52:02

seeing everyone else is so superior

52:05

and advanced, but she didn't

52:07

realize the gift of

52:09

healing that she had in fight of her. That's

52:12

such a message that can happen to

52:14

anyone. And

52:16

it's so amazing when you get

52:19

a chance to see people go

52:21

from a caterpillar to a beautiful butterfly,

52:24

just like that, when you accept yourself.

52:26

But it's so hard for people to get it and then

52:28

people fight and they say, oh, this is a con,

52:31

this can't be. We all know that

52:33

change takes years, decades,

52:36

type of thing. And so I sometimes

52:38

get a little bit of pushback

52:42

pretty intensely sometimes from

52:45

colleagues who don't like

52:47

what I say or don't like hearing it, which is kind

52:50

of understandable, I guess. People are trained

52:52

so differently that you have to

52:55

take antidepressants and you've got to talk

52:57

for years and years to some crank

53:01

and that type of thing. But I've

53:03

always believed that rapid

53:05

recovery is really possible.

53:07

Me too. Me too. It's

53:09

only the thought that it's not that stops

53:12

us. Yeah,

53:13

right.

53:14

There's no saying that not even the

53:16

98-year-old guru

53:18

is safe from his own thoughts. Do you ever

53:21

deal with thoughts of anxiety or depression?

53:24

I've had at least 17 different

53:27

anxiety disorders myself. Starting

53:30

when I was a child, I've had fear

53:33

of, I can't even remember all the things

53:35

I've been anxious about, but I had a fear of blood,

53:38

bees, dogs,

53:41

horses, vomiting.

53:44

I've had intense public speaking

53:46

anxiety, social

53:49

anxiety, shy

53:51

bladder syndrome. I've had a panic

53:54

attack once. That's why I love

53:56

treating anxiety because whatever the

53:58

patient says... I

54:01

can say i've had that to know

54:03

how lucky that is and what a joy

54:05

it's going to be showing you how to overcome

54:07

that i love treating anxiety

54:10

i'm doing a workshop this friday.

54:14

It'll be a virtual

54:16

workshop with

54:17

this j and k seminars and lancaster

54:20

pennsylvania used to fly out there, i'm

54:23

too old for that now but i still

54:25

do occasional virtual workshops

54:28

that's gonna be on social

54:30

anxiety disorder and

54:33

i just love treating every

54:35

kind of anxiety

54:37

you know panic attacks and OCD

54:40

and. China's and public

54:43

speaking anxiety and phobias

54:45

and. Add all of those things is one

54:47

of my favorite favorite things but

54:50

i still get anxious from time to time it

54:52

just that i have tools now to

54:54

deal with that and i have

54:57

you know tons of laws and the older

54:59

i get the more i become aware of

55:01

my flaws. I used

55:03

to think that you know people wouldn't

55:06

accept me if they saw how long

55:08

and screwed up i was but now i found

55:10

it's more the opposite that. More

55:13

real you are the more people seem to love

55:16

and accept you jill

55:19

leavitt who you remember you know who i teach

55:21

with him in the weekly group it's at

55:23

stanford you know she really understands

55:25

the stuff deeply to you

55:28

know once i was dropping her off her house

55:30

after we did, some kind of a presentation

55:32

somewhere and she said i

55:35

just feel sorry for these people

55:37

who think they have to be special. They

55:40

don't know the joys of just accepting

55:43

that you're just kind of a low average

55:45

piece of shit she said it's the greatest thing

55:47

in the world i really

55:49

got a great

55:52

so great to be below average amazing

55:55

amazing but people don't want to

55:57

accept i'm not gonna accept that i'm gonna, be

56:00

special one of my students

56:02

was named Matt may and

56:05

now he's a clinician here

56:07

in Menlo park near Palo Alto a

56:10

psychiatrist and he was he

56:12

started coming to me when he was a medical student

56:15

to my weekly seminar and

56:17

then when he was a resident I supervised him

56:19

and we'd spend about three hours a

56:21

week we'd have pizza and talk about his

56:23

tough cases and I would give him tips on

56:25

how to treat people and then we

56:28

would also work on his issues

56:30

because like all young psychiatrists and psychologists

56:33

he had personal shortcomings

56:36

and things that were bothering him and

56:38

we'd kind of work on that you know

56:40

how to deal with women women were kind of giving

56:43

him a hard time and I told him how to solve

56:45

that problem and his

56:48

love life went from rags to riches but

56:51

I remember one night we

56:53

were driving back to my house from

56:55

this pizza place in Los Altos where

56:58

we've been doing our supervision and we were

57:01

to stop sign and he looked over

57:03

at me and says dr.

57:05

Burns I just want you to

57:07

know that I'm working so hard every day

57:09

to become a better and better person

57:13

and I looked back to him with equally sincere

57:15

eyes I said Matt I just

57:17

hope you're gonna get over that one of these days

57:21

that he person the laughter that he got is

57:24

enlightenment

57:26

Wow powerful

57:30

just self-acceptance it's it's

57:32

such a relief David I love your

57:34

work you've changed my life you've changed

57:36

millions of people's lives I honestly

57:39

I think the cognitive distortion lists

57:41

should be on everybody's refrigerator and

57:43

car dashboard it should be it should

57:45

actually come as we come into us come

57:48

with us as we're born into this world to

57:50

help us navigate it because

57:52

the mind has so many tricks up

57:54

its sleeve to the oldest cons

57:57

as you yeah as you say I want

57:59

to ask One last question before

58:01

we wrap up. It's something I ask

58:04

every guest, and it's the magic

58:06

wand question. So if you could wave

58:08

a magic wand at the Earth

58:10

and tomorrow when you woke up, whatever wish

58:13

you asked for was granted, what would your

58:15

magic wand wish be for the planet?

58:17

Well, I think it would be the same thing that

58:20

I'm working on would be that we

58:22

just got our first round of funding for

58:24

the app. We've been working for free for

58:26

the past three and a half years to

58:29

make it happen, and that it

58:31

would be a commercial success. And

58:34

we're going to give it for free for anyone

58:36

who can't afford it no matter what. And it's been

58:39

totally free for everyone up until now, but

58:41

at some point we have to start getting

58:43

a business plan so we can pay people.

58:46

And I guess one of my dreams would

58:48

be that it could become commercially

58:51

successful to the point that

58:53

we can begin to really

58:56

make it available

58:58

to tens of thousands or millions

59:00

or hundreds of millions of people

59:02

around the world. That's been my dream

59:06

ever since I completed

59:08

my psychiatric residency training.

59:11

And if the app continues to help

59:13

people, we have to give it to more populations.

59:16

We've been doing beta testing on people

59:19

who listen to my podcast, and that's a selected

59:22

group of fans, and it works fantastic

59:24

for them, not all of them, but for most

59:26

of them. Is it going to be helpful

59:28

for people who are living on the street,

59:30

people who don't have

59:33

any income, any support? That's

59:36

what our population in Philadelphia was

59:38

like. And those people were the best, easiest

59:40

to work with of any group, or the most grateful

59:43

of any group I've ever worked with. And

59:45

so if we could really start connecting

59:48

with people who were suffering in large

59:50

numbers, that'd

59:52

be kind of the dream I'd be

59:55

hoping for, and if that happens, then I'm ready

59:57

to retire and just hang out with my caps

59:59

all day long.

59:59

Love that. David,

1:00:02

thank you so much for this conversation. This

1:00:04

was so enlightening. I'm so happy to finally

1:00:06

connect with you. I hope we can stay connected

1:00:09

and have more of these chats and maybe even

1:00:11

collaborate on the app. What

1:00:13

you do should be out there to

1:00:15

everybody. So consider me an ally

1:00:18

in your mission.

1:00:20

Well, thank you. It's been an honor and I

1:00:22

would look forward to doing something again. If

1:00:24

you email me, I mentioned

1:00:27

you to Alexis who's on our app team

1:00:29

and she's in charge of all the beta tests

1:00:31

and stuff like that. So if you email me and

1:00:33

give me a reminder, I'll put

1:00:35

you in touch with her and then she can set up

1:00:37

a kind of a VIP

1:00:40

beta test of the should statement

1:00:42

class. It's dedicated to Albert Ellis,

1:00:44

someone who you really love like I

1:00:47

do or maybe the acceptance

1:00:49

class and get your input. I'd love

1:00:51

to talk to you again. I'm an easy Mark and I'm

1:00:53

available 24 seven. So thank

1:00:56

you so much. It was just an honor to meet you, Prince.

1:00:59

Likewise. Thank you so much. Time

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