0:00

You're listening to Ruthie's Table four in

0:02

Partnership with Montclair. Across

0:06

the garden from where a Surgeon General Viveq

0:09

Muthee and I are sitting, people

0:11

are having Sunday lunch in the River cafe.

0:14

Walking into the room, you hear the rise and

0:16

fall of conversation and laughter, friends

0:19

and families connecting over food. At

0:22

age thirty seven, Viveigue was appointed

0:24

as the youngest Surgeon General of the

0:26

United States by President Obama

0:28

and is now serving a second term with

0:31

President Biden. During

0:33

COVID in his gap between terms

0:35

as surgeon General, he might have researched

0:37

illnesses, cancer, heart

0:39

disease, diabetes, but

0:42

instead he chose what he saw

0:44

as another epidemic of our time,

0:47

loneliness. His book

0:49

Together, The Healing Power of Human

0:51

Connection in a Sometimes Lonely

0:54

World, tackles loneliness as

0:56

a condition seriously detrimental

0:58

to the health of millions of people. He

1:01

is a surgeon general who sees love

1:04

as a foundation of policy making.

1:06

How rare to hear the word love as

1:09

a solution to a diagnosis. He

1:12

says food is an antidote to loneliness,

1:14

believing loneliness is like

1:16

hunger, and like thirst, I

1:19

am privileged today to talk with

1:21

and listen to the Surgeon General

1:24

and to hear how as a doctor,

1:26

a father, a husband, a

1:29

child, and now my friend.

1:32

Food is a connection and

1:34

food is love. I

1:37

mean, it is also why you're

1:39

here, Snith, are you doing a conference?

1:42

So it is a global concern now, and.

1:45

It's actually why I find that this

1:48

work around food to be so powerful, because I

1:50

think that people like you, Ruthie, who

1:52

have been so deeply

1:55

immersed in not just the preparation

1:57

of food, but food is a cultural force. I

2:00

think have long recognized that food

2:02

has a power to bring us together, to put us

2:04

in a place of ease where we can be more

2:06

open and talk to one another, which is I think people like

2:09

breaking bread with one another, and conversation

2:11

happens differently over food than it does

2:13

in a conference room. But

2:16

I think that food is also, at its best,

2:19

you know, a force for love. And

2:22

I feel that fundamentally, the

2:24

question that's before us in society,

2:26

not just in the US, but all over the world is

2:29

do we want to be a society that's driven

2:31

by fear and with all

2:33

that comes with that anger, anxiety, insecurity,

2:36

or do we want to be a society that's fueled by

2:39

love and by all that comes with that, compassion

2:42

and kindness and generosity and

2:44

looking out for one another. And so

2:46

that's ultimately what I hope that

2:48

we can build together as a world fueled empowered

2:51

by love. And I think that's a world where we

2:53

can build extraordinary things, where

2:55

we can bring benefits to everyone, where we can

2:58

overcome adversity no matter or

3:00

what comes, and where we feel a

3:02

sense of optimism and hope.

3:04

It worries me greatly that as I travel

3:06

that so many people feel pessimistic

3:09

and anxious. But I also think

3:11

that what gives us hope during hard trip is

3:15

our connection to one another. And so

3:17

that's what I want us to rebuild.

3:19

You know, in our lives. We have it within us. I

3:21

think this is actually our true nature. It's

3:23

a question of giving voice to it and coming

3:26

together around that kind of society,

3:28

and I think we can build it.

3:30

We will, Yeah, we will, thank

3:32

you. So what we like

3:35

to do is to read a recipe.

3:38

And you chose the recipe of pumpkin soup.

3:40

Yes, so would you like to read that recipe?

3:42

And you can read it any way you like.

3:45

Sure, So this is recipe

3:48

for pumpkin soup. And

3:50

I chose pumpkin soup in part because I

3:53

having grown up in Miami, Florida, where it's very

3:55

warm, and then having subsequently moved

3:57

to very cold weather places, I was always craving

4:00

warmth, and soup was the

4:02

easiest way for me to find them. And

4:04

I love pumpkins part because I love Halloween.

4:06

So pumpkin soup three

4:09

tablespoons of extra virgin olive

4:11

oil, fifty grams of butter,

4:14

two cloves sliced garlic, twenty

4:17

sage leaves, a

4:20

two kilogram pumpkin, peeled,

4:22

seated, cut into large cubes,

4:25

one potato, peeled and cubed,

4:28

one red chili, one liter

4:30

of chicken stock, two tablespoons

4:33

of grated parmesan, and one

4:35

tablespoon of crim fresh. Heat

4:38

the olive oil and butter, Add

4:41

garlic and sage, and fry for five minutes.

4:45

Add the pumpkin and potato. Fry

4:47

for one minute before adding chili. Seasoning

4:50

and season well with salt and pepper. Poor

4:53

enough stock to cover the pumpkin

4:55

and bring to a boil. Reduce

4:58

the heat and simmer for twenty minutes

5:01

until the pumpkin is tender. Strain

5:04

half of the stock from the pumpkin into

5:06

a bowl and set aside. Pouring

5:08

what is left into a food processor pulse

5:12

until the mixture is very thick. Return

5:15

the mixture to the pan and add

5:17

strained stock and stir. Serve

5:20

with parmesan and a drizzle of olive oil

5:22

and crumbfresh on top.

5:24

Is something you can imagine eating and cutting.

5:27

Yes, in fact, I found myself getting

5:29

hungry even though I had a whole meal after reading this recipe.

5:32

This is wonderful.

5:34

Yeah, So if we begin at

5:36

the beginning, this is going to be a long, less

5:38

conversation about life and work and

5:41

loneliness and happiness food. Tell

5:44

me about your family. We are they from

5:46

India came to London

5:49

to England.

5:49

Yeah, my family's originally from India. My mother

5:52

is from Bangalore, a city in the south

5:54

of India, and my father is from a small farming

5:56

village about two hours outside of Bangalore,

5:59

and they grew up in fairly

6:01

modest households. My

6:04

mother's family was, you know,

6:06

middle class. My father, though, came from a poor

6:10

farming community and his family

6:12

did not have much at all in the way resources

6:14

growing up. After they got married,

6:16

they moved to England and they lived here for seven

6:19

years, in London for some part of that time,

6:21

and then in other parts. They lived in Leeds, they

6:24

lived up north in Huddersfield,

6:27

which is actually where I was born and where

6:29

my sister was born. They lived in Wales, Scotland,

6:32

and then ultimately moved to Canada

6:34

and then eventually to the US.

6:35

Did they bring the food of India with them? They

6:39

did.

6:39

They've never They've never left the cuisine

6:41

they grew up with behind, and they

6:44

not only cooked and sought

6:46

out that cuisine when they were

6:48

in England, but even growing up. The

6:51

aromas that I remember as a child are

6:53

of the Indian food that my parents looked at home.

6:55

What was it like? Do

6:57

you remember they?

7:00

You know, they had very different styles of

7:02

cooking. So my mother was a primary

7:05

cook, but my father cooked

7:07

often and he brought great joy to

7:09

cooking. So my mother her

7:11

The hallmark of her food were it

7:14

was simple but rich flavors. So

7:16

she would only cook with a few ingredients, but she

7:19

would somehow make all of them sing and

7:22

people from the community would often come and ask

7:24

her, how did you make that? How did I have the list

7:26

of ingredients, but somehow I can't get quite

7:28

the same flavor out of it. And she

7:31

would always say to me that one of

7:33

her secrets was that was

7:35

her intention when she cooked. She

7:37

said she would think of the love that she wanted

7:40

the food to represent, and the love she wanted

7:42

to give to the person who enjoyed the

7:44

food, and she would bring that into her

7:46

mind and pour it into the food.

7:48

One of her ingredients.

7:50

Yes, love was one of her ingredients. And

7:52

my father was an incredibly creative cook.

7:54

If my mother's a hallmark

7:57

was simplicity, his was complexity. He

7:59

had often many ingredients.

8:02

And if you ask my father, how

8:04

did you make that dish because it was so good, he'll

8:06

have a hard time telling you because he doesn't quite

8:09

remember the proportions. And this he doesn't

8:11

measure. He just adds based on his instinct.

8:14

But he so he's a creative cook, but an equally

8:18

an equally talented one.

8:19

But did he cook on special occasions or did he

8:21

just cook every day? Did he did he?

8:23

When we were growing up, he would cook on special

8:26

occasions because he was he was

8:28

working office. He was a doctor,

8:30

and he initially worked in emergency

8:33

rooms, and in hospitals,

8:35

then eventually set up his own clinic, you

8:38

know, in Miami in nineteen eighty five, which

8:40

he continues to work in until this day now,

8:43

alongside my sister, who's also a primary.

8:45

Doctors in the family more

8:47

than three three of us, yet are just three of us in

8:50

the nuclear family.

8:51

So we say my mother has is

8:53

essentially close to a doctor herself because

8:55

she she actually ran the medical

8:58

practice that my father worked, and she

9:00

managed the whole operation, and because there

9:02

was a small shop, it was just the two of them

9:05

seeing patients. So a lot of times the patients would come and talk

9:07

to her about what they were going through, and over

9:09

time she came to sort of recognize various

9:11

symptoms and be able to make diagnoses

9:14

on the side. So it was very interesting.

9:15

But yeah, and when you

9:17

went to Miami, did you live within

9:20

a very Indian community or was it?

9:22

When we first got there, we didn't know many

9:25

people who were Indian. The Indian community was still

9:27

small, and

9:29

over time is more as a Indian community

9:31

grew, that became an important part of

9:34

our experience. But initially it

9:36

wasn't the case. And I think that's part of the reason

9:38

why I know I felt

9:40

quite different as a young person growing up. I

9:43

didn't know a lot of people in those early

9:45

years who ate the food that we ate,

9:47

or had the customs that we had, or had names

9:49

that sounded like ours, and I often

9:51

felt like an outsider. And it's

9:54

interesting. It's funny to know how these early experiences

9:56

stick with you. And I still remember that feeling

9:58

of what it felt like to be an outsider and do not

10:00

feel like you belong. And

10:03

it's why I have found that in years since, I'm

10:05

really sensitive to when other people feel

10:07

like they're outsiders because I

10:09

felt that and it doesn't feel good.

10:11

So did your sister experience

10:13

that as well?

10:14

She did? Yeah, she did?

10:15

Your parents and your parents? Did

10:18

your grandparents come with you at all? Did

10:20

they?

10:20

I wish they had.

10:21

They did not.

10:22

They stayed in India, and

10:25

I missed them a lot because when

10:28

we were young, during holidays, during Christmas

10:31

and Thanksgiving, people would go

10:33

away and spend time with extended family.

10:34

They would come back with these wonderful.

10:36

Stories about their grandparents and about

10:38

how Grandma gave them this, their Grandpa took

10:40

them here, and I often wish that our

10:42

grandparents were closer, but they came to visit

10:44

a few times when we were younger,

10:46

and I really treasured those times. Did they

10:48

cook, yes, well,

10:50

my grandmother would cook, my mother's mother

10:53

and my father's mother had unfortunately

10:55

passed away when he was young, when he was ten, but

10:58

his father would actually cook his well because

11:01

he had been used to cooking for himself. And they all had

11:03

their own styles, but the one thing that was

11:06

common among all of them is there

11:08

was a lot of joy when they were in the kitchen. They

11:11

were cooking from a place of happiness. They

11:13

knew they were going to be bringing happiness to people with the food.

11:15

It wasn't functional, It wasn't ah.

11:18

Got to be on the table, you get the food out.

11:20

That's right, it was there's some real joy.

11:22

Do you think that is specific to Indian

11:25

cooking that is more of a group

11:27

activity or good

11:29

question.

11:30

I think other cuisines, other cultures have that as

11:32

well. But I do worry that

11:34

in modern living that we've gotten away

11:37

from a lot of that, and that food preparation

11:39

has become more functional than

11:42

nurturing and therapeutic, and

11:44

that old community style of sitting

11:46

together and both making

11:48

the food and consuming the food that

11:51

I think there's I think some of that

11:53

got lost, perhaps just as life structures

11:56

change and in the interests of efficiency, or

11:58

we can just get food delivered, or we can

12:00

pop something in the microwave, and it does

12:02

feel like it saves time. But I think

12:04

perhaps what may not have been as

12:07

as deeply appreciated was how much was lost in

12:10

terms of the community that's built. The relaxation

12:12

also that comes when you're working

12:15

with your hands and creating something

12:17

beautiful in the form of food that others will enjoy.

12:19

People often say to me, how can you cook

12:22

for one hundred and fifty people in

12:24

the restaurant when it's hard to give a

12:26

dinner party at home for twelve

12:28

people. I go, I can't do a dinner party

12:31

for twelve people at home. It's so much easier

12:33

doing it in a restaurant because

12:35

you're collaborating, you know, you have you're

12:38

cooking. It is that thing of cooking with other people,

12:41

sharing a conversation, tasting each other's

12:43

food, talking about what you're going to

12:45

do, and that community of

12:48

working in a restaurant is so nice. You know. I

12:50

do, of course cook for twelve people at home, but

12:53

it can be very solitary. Just being in the

12:55

kitchen by yourself.

12:57

It can be yeah, And that's where I think

13:00

doing it together, whether it's as family as friends,

13:02

really makes a difference. Some of my best memories

13:04

growing up or actually of all of us, my

13:07

sister and I along with my both

13:09

my parents actually cooking together.

13:11

So when we would have guests over that

13:15

was it was stressful at times because we're going to get

13:17

everything ready for the guests in time, et cetera.

13:19

And but the fun part was

13:22

that we made things together. So one of

13:24

my jobs was to make the list of

13:26

items that we were going to cook that day

13:28

for shops going to shop

13:30

or shop, but actually for cooking also like the dishes

13:32

that we were going to make. And then I

13:35

would be, you know, a sous cheft for my mom and

13:37

then she would help put things together. I would

13:39

chop, I would you know, mix things together.

13:41

I would watch things on the stove and roast

13:43

vegetables or other ingredients

13:46

and and when they were done, it was my

13:48

job to check it off in the list. And I

13:50

had to ultimately make sure that everything was checked

13:52

off before the guests came.

13:53

So preparation for sure life,

13:56

maybe even to.

13:58

This day, when I go home if we're going to

14:00

have people over, and my mother still still turn to me

14:02

and say, make the list, make the list.

14:03

So I make the list.

14:04

It's interesting what you said also about your grandparents,

14:07

because people that we've talked

14:09

to on the podcast, very

14:11

often, if especially they've come from another

14:14

country, from Ghana to

14:16

London or from China

14:18

to London, from wherever they've traveled,

14:21

they very often talk about their grandparents

14:24

almost more than their parents, because sometimes

14:27

the mother adapts, you know, the

14:29

mother adapts her cooking. The

14:31

child only sometimes wants to eat

14:33

the food of the culture he's moved to, but

14:36

the grandmother clings

14:38

to more to what you

14:40

know, or the grandfather, I should say,

14:42

from their country. Did your mother adapt

14:45

or did she only cook Indian food? Did she ever

14:47

make you hamburgers or meatballs

14:50

in spaghetti or was all the food of your home

14:52

the food of India?

14:54

Yeah, you know, my mother still

14:56

to this day primarily cooks Indian food, like

14:58

and almost exclusively, I would say, so that

15:01

is what we ate growing up. My father,

15:03

on the other hand, has he

15:06

still makes a lot of traditionally Indian food, but he

15:08

does a lot of creative fusion food. So he

15:10

has an Indian version of spaghetti

15:13

that he.

15:13

Makes, and of other pastas well.

15:15

I don't know what he calls doesn't actually have a

15:17

name, but when you eat it, you taste all of

15:19

these flavorful Indian spices. And

15:23

then he does other interesting things too, like he'll

15:25

take jackfruit, which is I'm

15:27

not sure if you've had it or not, but it's a fruit

15:30

that grows in the tropics. When it's ripe, it's

15:32

yellow and rubbery and very sweet. But

15:35

in its raw form it can actually be used

15:37

for savory dishes and it's quite tender. It can

15:39

actually mimic a steak. So he'll

15:41

chop up, you know, raw jackfruit, and

15:44

then he'll drop it into the pasta, and

15:46

so it almost tastes like you're eating meat in the

15:48

pasta, but it's all vegetables. So

15:50

he'll do all of these crazy creative things.

15:53

Yeah, both

15:55

of them sound like great cooks.

15:57

They are.

15:58

How did they work all day and then come home

16:00

and

16:02

did you sit with your sister every night around the

16:04

table and your parents after a long

16:06

day at school.

16:07

We did.

16:08

And the reason we did that was

16:10

actually because my parents were insistent and that

16:12

we always have dinner together.

16:13

Every night.

16:14

Sometimes my sister and I as kids growing up, we'd

16:16

get annoyed, you know, we'd say, well, you know, our friends

16:18

get to like sit in front of the TV during dinnertime,

16:21

why can we do that? Or you know, why don't

16:23

you guys have dinner. We're busy doing something, you

16:25

know, we're reading this book. Well, we'll have dinner later. But

16:27

they were always insistent that we have to

16:29

eat together, so much so that when I was in high

16:31

school, Ruthie and when we you

16:34

know, sometimes we had a lot of homework and I was in the

16:36

middle of like writing an essay and I didn't want to stop

16:38

exactly when dinner time was, and they

16:40

would just they would just wait for

16:42

us. And I still feel guilty, and so I'm

16:44

embarrassed to say this, but like I still

16:46

remember many nights in high school where I was like

16:49

stressed about an exam and I was late studying and I didn't

16:51

feel could quite break and they would stay up

16:53

and just wait until and we would eat at nine or

16:55

nine thirty or ten o'clock at night, but they would

16:57

just wait because they wanted to have dinner together.

17:00

Still can't believe I made them wait that long.

17:01

One, so I probably

17:03

didn't mind. I think I can imagine

17:05

waiting for my children to finish. I think,

17:07

you know, they probably it was your sister as well,

17:10

would.

17:10

You, yeah, study, Yeah,

17:12

And we were in the same grade growing up, so we

17:14

thankfully had a lot of the same assignments

17:17

and everything.

17:17

So, but yeah, did.

17:19

You go to friends homes for dinner? Did you go

17:21

to other people's houses for dinner?

17:23

We did, Yes, we went to other people's homes

17:25

and and that was always a real source

17:27

of joy because it

17:30

was it was always a family affair,

17:32

and it was always always very informal. So

17:34

it wasn't that there was a big long

17:36

table and everyone would sit together around that table.

17:39

Usually there was food

17:41

that was made. People would often bring food almost public

17:43

style. All the dishes would be laid out on a

17:45

table and everyone would just noisily

17:47

messy gravel plate, you know, put food on

17:50

it, and then go to various parts of the house

17:52

in small groups and this and that. And

17:54

as kids we were, you know, we would

17:56

just all hang out in a room together and eat and play

17:59

and it was fun. I really

18:01

enjoyed it. It was community, it was food, it was

18:03

entertainment.

18:05

Very evocative, very beautiful description of

18:07

this life at home. Did that it

18:09

was at a big break then when you went off to university,

18:12

when you went to Harvard, was a shock

18:14

to the system that suddenly you

18:16

were away from that.

18:18

It was a shock.

18:19

It was actually extremely hard for me, and

18:23

I struggled

18:25

a lot, especially during my first semester away.

18:28

I felt really lonely. I

18:30

felt just

18:33

really disconnected, and being a shy, introverted

18:36

kid, I had hard time

18:38

just making friends off the bat, you know. It took me a

18:40

while to get to know people, and

18:42

so that was it

18:45

was very hard. I remember coming home

18:47

at the for the first time after

18:49

enrolling in college during Christmas break, and

18:52

I had my suitcase in

18:54

my hand. The door opened, I stepped

18:56

in, I put my bags down,

19:00

looked up at the ceiling of the house in which I had

19:02

grown up, took a deep breath, and I said to

19:04

my father, I feel like I've

19:06

just been released from prison. And

19:09

I had almost forgotten that I had said that until

19:12

a few years ago. He reminded me, and

19:14

if I brought back this flood of emotions

19:17

of what it had felt like to be just separated

19:19

from this love that had nurtured me

19:22

for so long, and

19:24

things got a bit better after that, as I was able to

19:26

make friends and build a community. But

19:30

some years after, when I was in my residency

19:32

training in my first year, when

19:35

I was working you know, abobbly eighty ninety

19:37

hundred hours a week, but seeing and

19:39

working with patients who were going through some of the most

19:41

difficult moments of their life, including

19:44

people who are my age, you know at that time,

19:46

young people in their twenties who were dealing with metastatic

19:50

cancer and only had a few months to live.

19:52

I started reflecting then and thought to myself,

19:55

I never want to lose my

19:57

connection to my family. I want to make sure

19:59

that every moment

20:02

that I have that I'm spending it with family and friends,

20:04

you know, whether that's vacation time, weekend

20:06

time. I was like, I want to make that a priority. So after

20:08

that, I started going home much more often

20:11

to see my parents and to spend

20:14

time with them, even if it was just for a weekend. You know, it

20:16

was worth it because I always remember those patients

20:19

I cared for, are those young patients, and

20:21

this reminds me that we never we all don't

20:23

know how much time we have and

20:26

I want to make sure I'm spending that time with the people,

20:28

the time I have with the people that I love.

20:35

Did you know The River Cafe has a shop. It's

20:38

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20:40

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20:43

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online at Shopthrivercafe

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dot co dot uk. When

21:03

you were growing up, you describe always

21:05

eating at home and cooking at home in the community

21:08

of home. But what

21:10

would you go to restaurants in

21:13

Miami? Would that be?

21:14

We would from time to time.

21:18

It's interesting, I do I remember

21:20

that my parents because they liked spicy

21:23

food in particular, and

21:25

some stories I can tell you about spice and my father and

21:28

the crazy

21:31

yes he makes. He makes a

21:33

series of different hot sauces from different

21:35

types of peppers, including some are from

21:37

habanero peppers, some are from special

21:40

Jamaican hot peppers, some are from ghost

21:42

peppers. He's like extremely

21:45

spicy saw so much so that when he

21:47

makes them, we all have to leave the house.

21:49

When he makes the sauce in the kitchen, we

21:52

have to step outside because and

21:54

he wears something that's equivalent to a gas

21:56

mask when he makes it, because

21:58

the fumes there's so incredibly

22:01

overpowering. But once he's

22:03

made it and put it in a bottle, you

22:05

add a little bit to your food, it tastes incredible

22:08

as long as you can tolerate the spice. So

22:11

but you know, and I generally like, I eat

22:13

a lot of spice, but that level

22:15

of spice is even hard for me to tolerate.

22:17

Would he find a restaurant that could serve him the.

22:20

Equivalent, so we would always be

22:22

on the lookout for them. And so I remember many

22:24

times going to Chinese restaurants,

22:26

for example, and he would ask them

22:28

like, can you make it spicy? And there was always

22:30

a cadence to this conversation. First question, can you make it spicy?

22:33

They would say yes, Second question, how spicy

22:35

can you make it? They would say, well, we have a five star scale

22:38

and we can make it one to five. Then the third

22:40

question would say can you make seven stars? Can

22:43

you do get six? And then they would get

22:45

scared because they didn't want something to happen against you.

22:47

But then he would go through trying to convince him

22:49

that he really could take the spice. So generally

22:51

when we went out to eat, it was often

22:53

with in restaurants where they hope

22:56

people could make the food spicy, Chinese restaurants,

22:58

Thai restaurants, you know, food

23:01

food cuisines of that sort.

23:02

And when you were in university, did you do

23:04

what was the food like? There was that a shock

23:06

as well, just sitting down to the

23:08

kind of food they serve at school. Did you go

23:11

out?

23:12

It was? I actually lost a lot of weight in

23:14

college. You know, I think I'm a

23:16

fairly normal weight now, but

23:18

I actually, if you can picture this, I weighed forty

23:21

pounds less when I was in college.

23:22

Did anybody notice? I mean, did anybody

23:25

notice that there was a student in

23:27

his freshman year homesick

23:29

and losing weight and lonely. Do you think

23:32

was there any.

23:33

You know, no one's ever asked me that question outside

23:36

of my family. I don't think anyone noticed, you

23:38

know, And but

23:40

it was it was painful to my family. See,

23:43

they were there, they clearly knew something was wrong. I

23:45

wasn't feeling happy.

23:46

Et cetera.

23:48

But yeah, what I used to do is because

23:50

I missed the food of home. Also is

23:52

I had a little packet of spicy

23:55

powder that I would take with me to the dining

23:58

hall and I would sprinkle it on

24:00

on everything, anything and everything you'd find.

24:02

I would just like spice it up. And so even

24:04

people who didn't know me knew that I was a

24:06

kid with the spicy powder.

24:08

You know who.

24:08

I have a friend who travels with chili's. Yeah,

24:10

she always travels with some chili that

24:12

she can put on yeah food. I don't know whether

24:15

she's afraid of having inconsequential

24:17

food or whether she just loves

24:19

it with spicy but well.

24:21

I learned that actually from my parents, because

24:24

when we would go out to restaurants I couldn't make food

24:26

spicy, sometimes they'd be really disappointed. So

24:28

they would always have their own like powder that

24:30

they would add it. I remember a few times going out at

24:33

that time was kids. We loved pizza and

24:35

we wanted to eat pizza, and we didn't make pizza at

24:37

home, but we always wanted to go to pizza hut or something.

24:39

So sometimes they would be grudgingly go and they would

24:41

dutifully bring the spicy powder and sprinkle

24:44

it all over the pizza so that they looked like red pizza.

24:46

You know, you were in Harvard

24:48

and Boston and Cambridge. Did you have lobsters

24:51

or did you try the local food

24:53

from the cake?

24:54

I had some of the local some of the Italian food

24:57

I had in the North End.

24:58

Was that a revelation or had you had it Miami?

25:01

It was?

25:01

It was much better in the North End.

25:03

I think the limited past said I had in Miami was

25:07

it wasn't as authentic, you know, as what the North

25:09

Ends was. So that was that was

25:11

quite quite extraordinary. And then the pastries also,

25:13

like the Italian pastries, were just incredible.

25:15

I had never had anything like that before.

25:17

I don't know. Indian desserts are

25:20

they quite saying

25:23

the right?

25:23

So some of them are dairy based, yeah,

25:26

and a lot of them are not that. Indian sweets tend

25:29

to be tend to be quite

25:31

rich, you know, and and also quite sweet

25:34

as well, which is why some people love them.

25:35

Some people really don't like them.

25:36

Do you like them?

25:37

I do?

25:38

I mean, look, I have like thirty two sweet teeth, so

25:40

I have. I just love a love desserts, which is

25:42

part of the reason I try to eat them very sparingly

25:44

because otherwise I would just eat dessert all day long. But

25:47

I used to when I was growing up, I would

25:49

I learned to make one of the sweets in particular

25:51

that became so it was. It

25:54

goes by different names, but in our family we called

25:56

it k City bath, and

25:58

it's also called Shida and other parts

26:00

of India. But it's a very it's

26:02

sort of my mom's type of dessert. It's very

26:05

simple in terms of the ingredients and involved.

26:07

Basically, what you do is you take a pen,

26:09

you put let's say two cups of cream

26:12

of wheat or

26:14

something equivalent to that. You roast that with

26:16

some clarified butter or ghee, and you

26:19

put some raisins in there to roast as well. So

26:21

you're roasting that for a while until you start to smell

26:23

like the wheat, you know, sort of aroma

26:26

come to your nose, and once it's slightly

26:28

brown, then what you do is that you actually

26:31

add You can add a couple of things. You can start

26:33

by adding a little bit of sugar, right about

26:35

a quarter a cup or a half cup of sugar, just

26:37

to do you start to see a glisten in the sugar

26:39

melt and then what I used to do is I would actually

26:42

slice bananas and add them

26:44

to that as well, and then you crush cardamom,

26:47

you know, with the mortar pestle, and then you sprinkle the cardamom

26:49

on top, and then you mix it all together

26:52

and then let the water evaporate until you have something

26:54

that's very silky smooth, and you just

26:56

the combination of the sugar, the fruit and

26:58

the cardamom really brings the

27:00

dessert to life. So I used to make.

27:02

That, you know, when I was growing up.

27:05

Yeah, I just made it a couple of weeks ago.

27:07

From my kids.

27:08

It seemed very like recent,

27:10

I was the way you were describing it. Was it

27:12

something that's just always stayed in your mid It's.

27:14

Always se in my head, like I made it two weeks ago

27:16

for the first time in probably ten years, and

27:20

it brought back all these wonderful memories.

27:22

Yeah.

27:22

Do you cook at home now?

27:25

Now?

27:26

Very little, you know, which I regret. I

27:28

used to cook a fair amount up until I

27:31

finished my medical training and

27:33

then and then it just sort of

27:35

fell off.

27:35

I did you cook when you were doing your medical

27:38

education?

27:39

Yeah?

27:40

Did you have a family then or you? I did

27:42

not, so put everything into your

27:45

studies.

27:46

Yeah, I got married later in

27:48

life, when I was thirty eight years old.

27:50

In fact, I got married and then now I have two

27:52

wonderful kids. But in those days, I

27:54

was a bachelor doing my own thing in the kitchen.

27:56

What did you study in medicine? What was your

27:58

specialty?

27:59

So I ended up studying internal medicine,

28:01

which is the care of adults. And I ended

28:03

up specializing in hospital based medicine. So

28:05

when people are admitted to them, if there's sick enough

28:08

to be admitted to the hospital, then I was the doctor

28:10

who would take care of them there.

28:12

So that that's that's the And.

28:13

Yeah, grueling. Now would you would

28:15

you be working again?

28:18

I'm thinking about how you did you did

28:20

you manage to cook? You said you did

28:22

cook when you were I.

28:23

Did cook, yeah, but it wasn't I

28:26

mean I had to like cook a bunch of food and then

28:28

like eat it over several days because there wasn't Sometimes

28:30

you would come home at three in the morning and then

28:32

you'd have to leave two hours later, five in

28:34

the morning to go and start the next days round.

28:37

So there wasn't a lot of time to cook. So

28:39

I would try to cook in advance, you know, and have some food,

28:42

but sometimes it wasn't easy, and so I ended up

28:44

having to eat out or eat in the hospital cafeteria a

28:46

lot, which was we

28:48

could talk.

28:48

About hospital food. Yeah,

28:51

that is such an issue now. The way

28:54

we feed our children and the way we feed sick

28:56

people in our society, I think tells

28:58

us about how we care for people.

29:00

You know.

29:00

I think it's very institutely said, and I think

29:02

you're right. I think one

29:05

thing, if you look at the

29:07

list of medicines that we prescribe, there's

29:10

one thing that's missing from that list, and it's food, right,

29:12

because food is medicine and food helps

29:15

us heal in many direct and

29:17

indirect ways. Yet somehow

29:19

it does feel that the food we give people

29:21

in hospitals, and the food that we even

29:24

give kids in school. I think about the cafeteria,

29:27

you know, in my school growing up, and like what we used

29:29

to eat, and it's not the kind of

29:31

I think food we would want to give children

29:34

and give people who are ill if we fully

29:36

understood just how powerful food

29:38

is in healing and how vital it is for

29:41

our well being in sustenance. And

29:43

I do worry that what has happened in part over

29:45

the years, is that we've

29:48

allowed and i'm you know, my primary

29:50

experiences with the United States, but I do think

29:52

sadly this is happening in many other parts

29:54

of the modernized world. I do think we've

29:56

allowed our food supply to become poisoned

29:58

in a sense by food that are overly

30:01

processed and that are filled

30:03

with excessive amounts of salt and sugar, and we've

30:06

gotten away from, I think, some of the healthier

30:09

food that we all need. And it

30:11

starts really early, you know. I think if

30:14

children had the opportunity

30:16

to experience healthy food,

30:18

I meanly, I think it would make a big difference.

30:20

And I do believe, just from

30:23

a moral perspective, that no child should

30:25

ever have to go hungry, no child should

30:27

ever have to eat

30:30

food that is bad for them just to

30:32

survive. Yet that is a reality

30:34

that so many families are living

30:37

right now, and I do think it comes from just

30:40

a failure from a policy perspective

30:42

to understand the vital importance

30:44

of healthy food in raising

30:47

our children and making sure that society is healthy

30:49

and whole.

30:50

And it's interesting to think of how

30:53

that happened and when that happened, you know, the path

30:55

to not being concerned about feeding

30:57

our children.

30:59

I think that the paradoxes that we've somehow

31:02

made unhealthy food cheap and

31:04

made healthy food expensive, which has

31:06

put health out of the reach of so

31:08

many people in society,

31:11

And that is what we have to flip because

31:13

if we don't do that, then I worry that this rise

31:16

in chronic illness that we're seeing

31:18

heart disease, diabetes, cancer,

31:20

significant amount of which is driven by

31:23

diet, that we'll see those trends

31:25

continue unless we manage to

31:27

get back to the root of what's driving

31:29

it, which is in large part our diet.

31:31

And so you're going from describing

31:35

being the person that people met in hospital

31:37

and working with patients, and

31:39

how did that segue from

31:42

that until how do you become a surgeon general?

31:44

You know, people who are listening who might not know

31:46

whether the two words surgeon general comes

31:49

from, can you.

31:49

Tell us absolutely well? In the

31:51

United States, the position of surgeon General

31:54

is designated

31:57

to be an individual who's sometimes informally

31:59

called the nation's doctor, but whose responsibility

32:02

is twofold and one is to make sure that the public

32:05

has the best possible information about

32:07

health. So that they can make good decisions for themselves

32:10

and their families. And the second is

32:12

to oversee one of our eight

32:14

uniformed services in the US government, which

32:16

is called a US Public Health Service Commission

32:19

CORPS. People are familiar with the Army, the Navy, the

32:21

Air Force. Well, one of our services

32:23

is the Public Health Service as well, and we focus

32:26

entirely on protecting the

32:28

health of people, not just in the United

32:30

States, but also extending that mission

32:32

outside the US as well. So those

32:34

are the responsibilities I have as Surgeon

32:37

General.

32:37

And how did you go from being a doctor

32:40

in a hospital to being the Surgeon General.

32:42

Well, you know, I don't entirely know, to

32:44

be honest with you, and I'll tell you how it happened.

32:47

But after I finished my medical

32:49

training, I was teaching at a

32:51

hospital. I was practicing medicine and caring for

32:53

patients. I was doing that for a good chunk

32:55

of my time. And then on the side, I was actually building

32:58

a technology company that I I hope would

33:00

help to accelerate medical research

33:02

to help bring treatments and cures

33:05

to people more effectively. And I was

33:08

I had gotten involved probably in two thousand and seven, two

33:10

thousand and eight I think around that timeframe also

33:13

in health policy work. So

33:15

I was doing that hodgepodge of things like that, you

33:18

know, at the time, but never actually thought of

33:20

working in government. But then one day

33:22

I happened to be, you know, actually picking up

33:24

my dry cleaning that day from the dry

33:26

cleaners, and my hands were full, and my phone

33:29

rank and it was a two to two area

33:31

code, which is the Washington d C. I lived

33:33

in Boston at the time, and I didn't recognize the number,

33:35

so I didn't pick it up. But then finally

33:38

I decided, let me just take the number, and that happened

33:40

to be a call from the White House at that time, asking if

33:42

I'd be interested in being considered for this

33:44

position. And what I came to understand later is

33:47

that the President Obama and his

33:49

team, we're looking to

33:51

modernize the Office of the Surgeon General. They recognized

33:53

this was a new age that we were coming in

33:55

to where people receive their information

33:58

differently, they learned about health issues differently,

34:00

and there's a whole new dimension of health

34:02

threats that we were facing, including the operate

34:04

epidemic and the fentanyl crisis. So

34:07

anyway, they seem to think

34:09

that I might be a good fit for that role. So they reached

34:11

out at that time and that's

34:13

how the whole journey began.

34:19

If you like listening to Ruthie's Table

34:21

for would you please make sure

34:24

to rape and review the podcast

34:26

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

34:29

Podcasts, Spotify, o, wherever

34:31

you get your podcasts. Thank

34:33

you. When

34:41

you had that break between

34:44

being surgeon General with President Obama

34:46

and then now your position

34:49

with President Biden, tell me what did you do

34:51

and how did that lead to your interest

34:53

in loneliness.

34:55

Well, to be honest with you, Ruthie, I was

34:57

quite lost in the beginning.

35:00

And I you know, I was.

35:01

Coming off of serving as Surgeon General

35:03

for about two and a half years or so,

35:06

and my identity

35:08

had become wrapped up in that role, and

35:11

I was abruptly as civilian again and

35:13

trying to figure out a bunch of questions.

35:16

And one of the things I was struggling with in the process

35:18

was that I had really lost any

35:21

sense of community during those few

35:23

years that I served in government. I had largely

35:27

you know, I sort of told myself, I think a familiar

35:29

story that many people tell themselves, perhaps when they

35:31

have jobs for a short

35:33

period of time, which is I got to put everything I have into

35:35

this job, and I'll have time to do

35:37

the right catch up with life afterward. And

35:40

as a result, I had not caught up with

35:42

friends, I had not kept up with even family

35:44

members at times, and when I was with my parents

35:47

or my wife or you know, my sister,

35:50

I was distracted often, you know, I was going

35:52

through my inbox, trying to clear out messages, keeping

35:55

up with the news that was relevant to my work, and

35:57

that just led to this real profound

35:59

sense of isolation and loneliness

36:01

when I came out, and so I struggled

36:04

with that for quite a bit of time. And

36:07

in the process, one of the things that I

36:09

was digging into was recognizing that

36:11

that experience of loneliness that I was having, that

36:14

it wasn't unique to me. I was like reflecting more and

36:16

more on conversations I had had even when

36:18

I was in office. The social connection

36:20

that I was missing and that I found was missing

36:22

for so many others was not

36:25

just a good feeling. It was actually something that

36:27

was really vital to our physical health

36:29

and our mental health. And it's why, well,

36:31

ultimately, when I wrote about loneliness, it was

36:34

about that profound health impact around the

36:36

recognition that when we struggle with being

36:38

disconnected from one another, that

36:40

actually has an impact on our mortality.

36:43

And the mortality impact actually of loneliness

36:45

and isolation are similar to the mortality

36:48

impact we see with smoking, and even greater

36:50

than that which we see with obesity. So this

36:52

is a real issue, but it's also one

36:54

that's deeply felt, and I

36:56

certainly felt it a lot during that

36:58

time. So coming back the

37:00

second time to serve felt very different

37:03

than the first time, in part because the

37:05

country in the world was in a very different place with COVID,

37:08

but also because I realized

37:10

I really wanted to focus in on this deeper

37:12

mental health crisis that was running

37:14

under the surface and that was impacting so

37:17

much of our lives, and that was particularly impacting

37:19

kids with rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.

37:22

That we're all going in the wrong direction. And so that

37:24

has been really where I have focused

37:27

much of my time these last three years,

37:29

is on addressing loneliness, understanding the

37:31

deeper roots of this mental health crisis,

37:34

and thinking about and honesty in a very personal

37:37

context, not just in terms of me, butters

37:39

of my own kids. You know, my kids are now six and

37:41

seven, and I want them to

37:44

grow up in a world where they feel happy

37:46

they don't, where they feel connected to other people,

37:49

where they feel connected to other

37:51

cultures. And I

37:53

want them to know that

37:56

if they mess up or do something wrong, that they

37:59

are people who will forgive them, men who will lift them up.

38:01

And I want to know.

38:02

That they will do that for other people as well. But

38:04

that means creating a world that's more kind

38:07

and compassionate, more forgiving and understanding,

38:10

more connected and invested in one another.

38:12

But that's ultimately I think the work that

38:15

I feel is really essential for us to do.

38:16

Now, would you also add trust

38:19

to that? If you have trust, then

38:22

you trust that there will be that support

38:24

system or that people are not there to

38:27

do you harm that you then might

38:30

accept more.

38:32

Yes, that is the right word trust.

38:34

Yeah.

38:35

And the thing is trust trust

38:38

can't be manufactured, and it also doesn't

38:40

come about overnight. It comes through relationship,

38:43

right. It's like when we get to know people and understand

38:46

them, then we come to trust them. And

38:48

when we trust people, we can also tolerate

38:50

disagreement because we recognize

38:53

that that we're more

38:55

than our opinion on a single issue, Right,

38:57

that there's something deeper that binds us together, some common

39:00

hopes and dreams or shared humanity. But

39:03

when that gets lost, when we can't see each

39:06

other as human beings, but we only see each other as

39:08

posts that we that we write on social

39:10

media, or as positions on a particular controversial

39:13

issue, then it becomes very hard

39:15

to build trust. It becomes hard then to move

39:17

together in the face of adversity. And

39:19

that's why a key part of

39:22

not just preparing for better

39:24

health, but also preparing for the next pandemic

39:26

has to involve rebuilding our ties with

39:29

one another and the trust that we have in society.

39:31

One of my favorite stories is of they

39:34

were looking into a happy

39:37

community and happiness factors, and it was this

39:39

town in Denmark, and they

39:42

interviewed people about why they were happy, and it

39:44

was to do with trust. And they told the story about

39:46

a Danish woman who had which I remember,

39:49

had taken her baby to New York and

39:52

she went inside to my

39:55

Balthazar, one of the cafes

39:57

there, and left the baby outside

40:00

in a pram and she went

40:02

in to eat, because that's

40:04

what she would do in her town in Denmark.

40:06

You know, she thought that actually

40:09

that's what they would do. They would leave the

40:11

baby outside, you know, but she was able to

40:13

watch it. And she was arrested for

40:16

you know, being whatever you call irresponsible

40:19

towards an infant because she'd left a baby

40:21

outside, you know. But that was to

40:23

do with trust. And I think

40:25

that what you're doing is so you

40:27

know, so inspiring and so important, and

40:30

you are actually in a position to make change. People

40:32

were saying in the River Cafe, thank you, So

40:35

as an American, I would add myself

40:37

to those thanks and to ask you

40:39

as our last question, if

40:42

food is something that helps

40:44

loneliness, if food is the way you cook for

40:46

your own children and the experience

40:48

of taking them places. Food is also comfort,

40:51

So what would be

40:54

your comfort food search? In general?

40:57

I comfort food.

40:58

Well, there

41:02

is a it's something my mother

41:04

makes and it's a

41:06

particular.

41:09

A dish.

41:09

It's almost like a spicy broth water that's

41:11

called russam sam

41:15

and traditionally you would mix it with rice

41:18

to eat it. And it's beautiful, spicy,

41:20

flavorful as curry leaves

41:22

in it, as pepper, has all kinds of

41:26

spices and very ripe tomatoes.

41:29

But you can also pour it in a cup and

41:31

drink it. And when I do that, I

41:33

feel like it's almost like an elixir that

41:36

I'm having. It sort of fills me

41:38

with warmth literally, but also

41:40

with these beautiful memories I have

41:42

of my mother. You know, I had a professor

41:44

once who said to me, he said love. He said, food

41:47

is not the calories you put in your body. Food

41:50

is the love your mother gave you as

41:52

a child. And I have thought

41:54

about that so often because that's what

41:56

to me makes comfort food comfort food. It's the

41:58

food that reminds me of love.

42:00

Thank you, Thank you.

42:01

So much, Rudy.

42:02

You'll see you again very soon.

42:04

I hope, so I as well have this love.

42:10

Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table

42:12

for in partnership with Montclair.

42:23

Ruthie's Table four is produced by Atamei

42:25

Studios for iHeartRadio.

42:27

It's hosted by Ruthie Rogers and it's

42:29

produced by William Lensky.

42:31

This episode was edited by Julia Johnson

42:34

and mixed by Nigel Appleton. Our

42:36

executive producers are Faye Stewart

42:39

and Zad Rogers. Our production

42:41

manager is Caitlin Paramore, and our production

42:43

coordinator is Bella Selini. Thank

42:46

you to everyone at the River Cafe for your

42:48

help in making this episode.