0:04

Hello

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and welcome along to the RT Rugby Podcast,

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our second Rugby Podcast here of the week

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on RT. If you missed it, I spoke

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to Ronan O'Garry yesterday, looking ahead to France

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against Ireland on Friday night in the Guinness

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Six Nations. That's available to watch or listen

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in all the usual places. Today though, we

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have the Ireland team news and I've Bernard

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Jackman and Johnny Hulland with me here because

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we're going to look ahead to Friday's opener

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against France in Marseille and a couple of

0:34

big calls from head coach Andy Farrell. Gary

0:36

Ringrose is going to miss the game. He's

0:39

out with a shoulder injury. Robbie Henshaw

0:41

starts in his place alongside Bondiaki in

0:43

the centre. Calvin Nash gets the nod

0:46

over Jordan Larmer on the right wing.

0:48

Jack Crowley is as expected at out

0:50

half and in the second row,

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Joe McCarthy is picked over James Ryan. He

0:54

drops to the bench, a 6-2 split as

0:57

well on that bench. In full so Ireland

1:00

forwards Andrew Porter-Danji in tight furlong,

1:02

Joe McCarthy tight burn, Peter

1:04

O'Mahony, Josh Fander-Flier and Kaylen Doris complete

1:06

the pack and then in the backline

1:09

Gibson Park and Jack Crowley in

1:11

the centre. Bondiaki and Robbie Henshaw

1:13

Calvin Nash and James Lowe on

1:15

the wings with Hugo Keenan at

1:18

full back. The replacements then Ronan

1:20

Kelleher, Kean Healy tight furlong, James

1:22

Ryan, Ryan Baird, Jack Conan at

1:24

the six forwards and then Connor

1:26

Murray and Kieran Frawley making up

1:28

the two backline replacements. Guys,

1:31

thanks so much for joining us. We'll

1:34

go through the big selections

1:37

piece by piece and break it down like that as

1:39

we go but overall, Burch,

1:41

I'll come to yourself first.

1:43

Just initial thoughts on

1:45

what Andy Farrell has done both with the people

1:47

in the starting team and that 6-2 split on

1:49

the bench? I think 6-2 split

1:52

makes sense when you look

1:54

at that French squad, that's

1:56

certainly the area that's going

1:59

to go on the bench. under the most pressure

2:01

and obviously the France have gone 6-2 as well.

2:04

Um, I think I wasn't

2:06

really, I wasn't aware that Ringrose had such

2:08

a significant injury until the last couple of

2:10

days. So I was probably

2:12

expecting him to pay a 13. Um,

2:15

but we don't lose anything with Robbie Henshaw and Bundy at

2:17

key. And it was very different between the three of them.

2:20

Um, I think Calvin Nash, Calvin

2:23

Nash deserves his opportunity. I think he's been really good for

2:25

months there. He wants to play a similar type, um,

2:28

of, of attacking game to Ireland where he has

2:32

a license to Rome and I think

2:34

he's, um, well suited to that, um,

2:36

and he gets his first

2:38

six nations start and it's a great opportunity for him. And

2:41

then Joe McCarthy, uh, you know, I felt

2:43

he was the form of Locke, but you

2:45

never know if they'll, if

2:47

they'll be brave enough to play

2:49

him in a game of this magnitude, um, but

2:51

I think that's the right call. The

2:53

only other debate was, I

2:56

felt maybe we'd go with James Ryan

2:58

alongside him and then type of six and Peter

3:00

Manley at seven, just because of this set

3:03

piece issue, um, that started the creek a

3:05

little bit during the world cup. And obviously

3:08

their strength there. Um, and

3:10

horses, of course, type selection, but

3:12

he's gone with type burn alongside,

3:15

uh, Joe McCarthy and his first choice back

3:17

row and what's been his first choice back row

3:19

probably for the last year is on

3:21

Mahony, Darcy and Van der Fleer and then

3:23

maybe he's looking back at that French game

3:25

in the Viva last year

3:27

where we played a

3:30

really high tempo game and having

3:32

a traditional open side like Van der Fleer

3:34

is more important, but yeah, it's,

3:36

it's probably, um, as expected, I think

3:38

Jack, Jack Crowley was, was, was always going to

3:41

be the 10. Um, and

3:43

then it's probably only on the bench really.

3:45

It's, uh, Connor, Connor Murray getting ahead of

3:47

the knot ahead of, um, Craig

3:49

Casey, I think is, um, is

3:52

maybe a little bit surprising. Certainly not. It's

3:54

not a form choice, but, um, yeah,

3:57

that's, uh, it's probably as.

4:00

What do you expect him really? Early thoughts,

4:03

Johnny? I think first summed it up very well.

4:05

I think, McCarthy, I think everyone's looking

4:07

for him to get a start. It was just, we don't have

4:10

to drop someone. So it was easy for everyone to say a

4:12

start to him. I did not expect James Ryan to be the

4:15

one dropped. I think when you're looking at it

4:17

in the combination of four to eight, you

4:19

had a choice between James Ryan and Van der Fleer. I

4:21

actually think both of them were playing really well. I mean,

4:23

like, I think James Ryan will be going and knocking on

4:25

the door asking questions because I think he's been, you know,

4:28

he's been doing a good second-rows job, like, you know, and

4:30

Van der Fleer, I think it's very easy for people to

4:32

say, like, you know, he hasn't really

4:35

reached the height of his world player year

4:37

accolade, but when you

4:40

see people sharing stats and rock

4:43

arrivals and blasts through the rocks,

4:45

it might not be a poach, but it's a disruption.

4:47

Then it's a very hard

4:50

back five to pick from, and that's, you know,

4:52

something that Andy Farrell obviously has the privilege of doing

4:54

in the massive challenge, but I think it was always

4:56

going to be between James Ryan and Van der Fleer

4:58

and the others that were going to slot in somewhere.

5:01

I think the easy thing would

5:03

be to hold Joe McCarthy back and not play

5:05

him because you can still hold

5:07

him back. I think that wasn't the right choice. So,

5:09

you know, he's been, I think just the enthusiasm that

5:12

he's playing with. I think that he's still making one

5:14

or two mistakes. You're expecting that when he plays on

5:16

the edge so much, like he has, you see there

5:18

was stats across all the second rows and he probably

5:20

just had a, but he did have a

5:23

small bit more in

5:25

terms of penalties conceded, but I

5:29

think he's much better in that sense. I think he's

5:31

conceding less penalties than he did before

5:33

the World Cup camp was a, and

5:35

I thought he'd tighten it up and mature very well across that

5:37

campaign. So I think he

5:39

had to win there. You know, I think he did, but I'm like Burch

5:42

at all. I thought Pete might have gone to seven, and

5:44

I think Kaelyn Darris nearly gets you away with

5:46

that because he's so good around the breakdown. Maybe

5:48

he doesn't cover the ground in the way that

5:50

Van Der Feneer might or a traditional open site

5:53

does, but I think with Darris In

5:55

around the breakdown, he might have gotten away with

5:57

that as well. So It's interesting. I think like

5:59

Calvin, stubbornness Twenty six and you feel like is.

6:02

A i'm fairly Common interests or Six Nations that

6:04

dynamic album coming into the academy or in around

6:06

it when I was coming to the academy and

6:08

and senior contract. And now he was a

6:10

hot shot out of school and he was gonna

6:12

just cruise soon as I was just like and

6:14

I think us reality out that he he reminds

6:16

me of Andrew Conway quite a bit and that

6:18

there's kind of a couple of waves of a

6:20

Calvinist and I think this is that the strongest

6:22

one and is more than than. Deserving.

6:25

Of his opportunity but I think given the way

6:27

they the game is very like on my as

6:29

very good near very dependable very nice tight lions

6:31

go short as steps and good for works on

6:33

a d he gets out of contact with it

6:35

it gets true as like these are strong and

6:37

compact he also there that are looking forward to

6:39

seeing him and I think he is it's not

6:41

before his time but honestly like like a lot

6:44

of people that way for an injury to get

6:46

into that was am. What? Do the vaccine

6:48

coming out of it a physical game because these

6:50

he so many clothes rack up. At.

6:52

A lot of Irish helps out of a sudden

6:54

because his after getting as opportunity and almost am.

6:57

Not a parks editing dress with the as

6:59

expect is the combination before to it very

7:01

interesting there as soon as. You. Not

7:03

less surprising, really. I have

7:06

doubled back and Thousand Ashes a while

7:08

voted to the back. On to Joe

7:10

Mccarthy. I'm. And

7:12

as you said, like the fact that he

7:14

coming in for James run by a. I.

7:17

Think we were talking about on the bike us

7:19

over the last of Lethal. I think with all

7:21

kind of fatal doesn't fall we might have preferred

7:23

would have been other thing earlier on baby josh

7:25

on the bench and peter money going to save

7:27

on a tight burn. Slipping. Into the back

7:29

row, both. To. To.

7:31

Pick him for of for a fitness and debut

7:34

but also to pick him for six nations debut.

7:37

Ahead of James Reimer that the that's a

7:39

pretty big vote of confidence and from and

7:41

be farther than that, yeah, it's massive. An

7:43

Albertsons. Joe Mccarthy came out of school where

7:45

he was bit of a lead developer. of

7:48

the and talk about on has

7:51

always been. Way. to

7:53

see this kid wins in his

7:55

kid in trendy now think joe

7:57

anything eighty nine gain and am

8:00

any coach or players who were involved

8:02

with him, were excited by him. And

8:05

even, let's be honest, he got brought into the Irish

8:07

squad last year. But

8:10

that hasn't really been a first choice for

8:12

Leinster. But since that World Cup, he's

8:14

just come back and he's been on

8:17

fire. And he moves incredibly well.

8:19

He's a he's he has

8:21

a kind of enthusiasm for

8:24

the game that's nearly infectious. You nearly see it

8:26

live or on a TV screen. He just really seems to

8:28

be enjoying himself. And then he has the physical

8:31

capacity to do

8:33

or have big impacts.

8:36

And and and, you know, it's

8:39

really interesting how James Ryan reacts to this. Like

8:41

what we've seen the past with him is he's

8:43

incredibly determined. I mean, let's be honest. A

8:46

month ago, if you were talking

8:48

with the Irish captain, see James Ryan

8:50

was was right there in

8:52

the discussion. And I probably

8:55

will be again, you know, probably

8:57

will be again. But Joe

8:59

McCarthy is there on form. And now it's

9:01

up to James Ryan in Henderson to the

9:05

space him or the space type burn. But that's healthy. And

9:07

I think that's the that's where we need

9:09

to get them. And let's be honest, we don't have that at 10. And

9:12

we don't really have that at nine in terms of like

9:16

someone really putting the gun to give some

9:18

parks head with

9:20

injuries who don't have us on

9:22

the wing. And we've no one

9:24

really pushing Hugo Keenan. We

9:27

don't have an obvious stand in

9:29

for Porter. So,

9:31

yeah, that's that's the downside

9:34

of this squad and

9:36

the challenge for far all over the next couple

9:39

of seasons is to find more. Joe McCarthy

9:41

is to find more Jack Crowley's who

9:45

can come in and start and everybody's

9:47

excited about what they can do. And

9:50

Johnny, like I say, it's also it's not so much

9:52

even like finding the the quality

9:54

of player, but finding someone with I

9:57

think like the attitude that Joe McCarthy has shown.

10:00

He's come in and he's like, he hasn't

10:02

just been patient and waiting for the opportunity.

10:04

He's, he's come in and taken the jersey

10:06

in the last 12 months. It hasn't been

10:08

a case of he's, he's just slowly gone

10:11

into camp and done the right things and,

10:13

and waiting for the right opportunity to, to

10:16

get a start here or there or get some minutes.

10:18

Like this is a case of someone coming in and

10:21

putting the foot down and taking his place in the

10:23

team. Yeah, absolutely. And I

10:25

think to part of, we're not going to understand really

10:27

from the inside or looking in

10:29

from the outside is that, so they have

10:31

certain roles as well to say in certain systems. And you

10:33

never know what's really going on. You

10:35

know, day to day and what their markers are

10:37

and where they want to get picked. But I

10:39

think what Burt's there in terms of like, it's

10:42

not the enthusiasm, the kind of infectiousness around his

10:44

game and like the way he just catches your

10:46

eye so much like, doesn't he? So watching this

10:48

from the outside, he catches your eye and then

10:50

you're obviously up to drill into like, what's he

10:52

really doing? How many rock arrivals, how many contacts,

10:54

how many dominant hits, et cetera, et cetera. What

10:56

he's doing in the line out. But

10:58

I think he's very similar, even though he's

11:00

there nearly as long and longer than Jack, but Jack was

11:02

the same. I think we were asking him to start at 10. It

11:05

was like, he doesn't know any better than

11:07

to be, you know, disenthusiastic, disconfident, you know,

11:09

if you, you can pick the same old

11:11

soldiers that have a little bit of baggage

11:13

coming with them. And I think the best

11:15

part of Joe McCarthy is he's not really

11:17

carrying that baggage. He's lost with Leinster and

11:19

he's been knocked out of the workup with

11:21

Ireland, but he wasn't as frontline, you know?

11:23

And now he's kind of just bringing

11:26

himself to the fore without, without as much of

11:28

that baggage. I'm not saying that, you know, James

11:30

Ryan is showing the signs of that or anyone

11:32

else's, but like there's that kind of fearlessness of

11:34

youth as well, I suppose. And I think Ryan

11:37

Baird is bringing the same thing, you know, in

11:39

the defensive line out, the way he

11:41

runs around the pitch, you know, Varner said

11:43

about how well Joe McCarthy moves, Ryan Baird's

11:45

a freak. And, you know, I think unfortunately

11:47

he's been gazumped by Joe McCarthy's enthusiasm because

11:49

you can't really put all of those into

11:51

the same team. You're going to be a

11:54

young and maybe less experienced. So you do

11:56

need the Peter O'Manley's that are willing to

11:58

balance that out. You'd love. to see a situation

12:01

where Ryan Barrett had to play as well, because imagine

12:03

too, with those guys on the pitch, you

12:06

get some galloping runs, I think. But unfortunately for

12:08

him, Joe McCarthy is the one that really sets

12:10

us in there very easily. So

12:13

yeah, I like that. I think the way Jack came

12:15

into the team with that lack of fear because he

12:17

doesn't know any better, I think Joe McCarthy is in

12:19

the same position and doing loads of really good things

12:21

as well. Like the way he gets back into the

12:23

breakdown and disrupts everything after attacking his

12:25

second efforts and all that kind of stuff, which is what they all look

12:27

for. He's been classed. and

12:31

put his marker down now because James Ryan is, you know, trying to

12:33

test it and breathing down his neck and he won't be taking that

12:35

one easily, you know. First,

12:39

if we're looking at the game itself on

12:41

Friday, I would imagine one of

12:44

the big things we want to see from

12:46

Ireland in compared to the World

12:49

Cup is has that line

12:51

out been fixed? How confident are you of that?

12:55

Not overly, to be honest. I think you'd want

12:58

to see, not just Friday night, but you want

13:00

to see, you know,

13:02

three out of four games or four to

13:04

five games where we've kind of been consistent

13:06

there. And also, I think

13:08

just some of our line out issues at provincial level

13:10

is also maybe made me be a little bit overly

13:13

negative. I also don't think we've

13:16

picked the best line

13:19

out pack, you know, and that's part

13:21

of the reason why I would have

13:23

been combining Tyburn and

13:25

James Ryan alongside McCarthy and

13:28

having a man in there and Doris. So

13:30

I just think we look at that French

13:32

back five, four to

13:35

the five of them are good line

13:37

out operators. And Willems is very good at

13:40

disrupting and destroying opposition

13:43

more. So he knows

13:45

his role within that. So, yeah,

13:47

it's going to be a challenge. It's going to be

13:49

a challenge. And we need to have, like, you know, if

13:52

you lose a couple over

13:54

a short period of time away in France, historically,

13:57

that just gives them massive momentum and massive

13:59

energy. It could be a long

14:01

night. So I really

14:03

hope it's settled down. I think

14:05

obviously we've had whatever two weeks

14:08

now together. Paul

14:10

would have been going around the country,

14:12

you know, having one of ones with players and

14:14

talking about little changes they want to make, etc.

14:18

So the brain power is there. You just

14:20

like to see it just be executed. As

14:23

I said during this tournament and just build up

14:25

that confidence again because at the moment if you're

14:27

playing Ireland, you know, you're saying

14:29

let's get after them in the air. Let's get bodies

14:31

up. Let's squeeze the gap. That's

14:35

pressure. They may throw the areas that they

14:37

don't want to throw to

14:40

and compete there. So that's the challenge. And

14:42

as I said this French team on paper

14:45

and based on previous form look like

14:47

they've got four quality line-out

14:49

operators in it and it'll

14:52

be a proper test. When

14:54

you would have looked back over the World

14:56

Cup, the line-out issues in it, like is there,

14:59

are there clear patterns of what's

15:01

going wrong? Like is this a

15:04

throwing issue? Is it that

15:06

there's too much movement before the

15:08

jump? Is there too little movement in the jump?

15:10

This is why it's actually worrying. Is

15:13

there a pattern there? Yeah, the

15:16

pattern was like pretty much

15:19

all the key fundamentals at times seem

15:22

to crack and that's

15:26

what would be harder to fix because it just seemed to

15:28

lose that whole

15:30

cohesion, calmness, speed,

15:33

speed of movement, speed of

15:35

throw in general was good actually. Calling

15:39

into areas where it

15:42

was obviously risky and

15:44

yeah, we're happening

15:46

in South Africa, happening in

15:48

New Zealand. So yeah, it

15:52

was lots of different things. But again,

15:54

like mid-world couple can be

15:57

hard to fix that. So

15:59

many other things going on. But I'm sure Paul

16:01

O'Connell and Andy Fire, when they reviewed

16:03

the World Cup, they would have said, look, we need to put

16:05

more time into this to get

16:07

it back to where it was. And, yeah, I

16:10

have no doubt that we can do it.

16:14

And obviously, Peat is a very good

16:16

line-up operator, and he'll back himself to

16:18

win ball to the front, and he'll

16:20

be good on defensive ball. But big

16:22

challenge for Ty Byrne and

16:26

D'Arcy, even, who may become a

16:28

primary learning option for us to

16:31

execute that this weekend. And,

16:35

Johnny, looking out towards the back line,

16:37

then, to come back around to

16:39

Gary Ringrose being out and Robbie Henshaw

16:41

coming in to partner Bondi Yaki in

16:43

the centre, do you think... Does

16:46

that change anything from an Irish point of view in terms

16:48

of how they'll attack the game or

16:50

how they look to attack? Like,

16:53

you've got four very, very,

16:55

very powerful centres there in

16:57

Achie Henshaw, Dante and Gail

17:00

Ficu. The velodrome will

17:02

be shaking any time one of the two

17:04

of those four players come together. Yeah,

17:06

Dante and Achie in the middle of the pitch

17:08

is a fright. Like, it's... they attempt

17:11

to hit our own game, and it's the rest of us

17:13

get away from it and let their contacts just stay between

17:15

the two of them. But I think, like, Dante's very good

17:17

in the breakdown. He's very physical in the middle of the

17:19

pitch. And I think, you know, if

17:21

you look at Ireland's attack, what they've been good at

17:24

in the past, maybe after their initial stint, was they've

17:26

been on the front foot in attack in terms of

17:28

changing their strategy and challenging other teams. And just when

17:30

teams think that they're used to them, they'll

17:32

change something and they'll change the whole

17:34

picture altogether. So I think, like, I'm

17:36

expecting that Ireland won't play... They won't

17:38

play a massively different attacking system or

17:40

structure, but there has to be change

17:42

there because, you know, that's... Without Sexton

17:44

in particular, like, you know, like, I

17:47

champion Jack Crowley all the time, but, like, at the

17:49

same time, he's not Johnny Sexton, at least not Jess.

17:52

And, you know, there's going to be a

17:54

different cohesion there. He's had a lot of time with the

17:56

team and all the rest of it, but something in there

17:58

is going to have to change as well. because

18:01

otherwise we're playing the same game as the workup and

18:03

things move on. You know, so teams will be used

18:05

to previewing Ireland from the workup. So

18:07

I expect some bit of change there and some bit of, I'm

18:10

hoping that when we watch the game, we're going, oh, that's

18:12

new, lovely. Nobody will strike them the yards out or whatever

18:14

it is, like, you know. And we've seen that from them

18:16

before when they used to do the the

18:18

pot off the nine and all of a sudden they're sweeping

18:20

around the other side and they got them the short side.

18:23

So very nice trickery like that in their attack. But then

18:25

the other thing where I think we can get, yeah,

18:27

and it was tough with Gary Ringo, he was going to add to

18:29

the wing and then he played three centers and Gary Ringrose has been

18:32

a very good winger. But I think for

18:34

Ireland's development, it's better that he's not playing

18:37

now. If you're going to go with

18:39

Hinshaw or Ringrose, go one or the other and leave

18:41

Nash on the wing, because I think that's going to

18:43

be better for developing our wing spots in our back

18:45

three. But if you look at Calvin Nash in the

18:47

air and Mofana not being a winger, they're the ones

18:49

playing with three centers. Well, he's played

18:51

on the wing. I understand. I don't

18:53

have much experience of watching him on the wing. But

18:55

I understand that he has with club and country to

18:57

a small degree, but if Nash can get into the

19:00

air and get ball back off him, that's something that

19:02

Ireland might target as well. But

19:04

it's just there two very good back lanes.

19:06

Like Maxime Luku is just in the shadow

19:09

of Anton De Ponte. Like he's an

19:11

unbelievable player. I spoke to Billy Scanlon quite a bit.

19:13

Billy was in the ritz while Luku was

19:15

there. And he said that he's a freak, like kicks

19:17

off both legs and he just gets no attention because

19:20

they're dealing with one of the best rugby players in

19:22

the world of Nash, you know, a

19:24

generation like, you know, so in Anton

19:26

De Ponte. So they're half-action class, they're

19:28

midfielders, Rachzalet, Peano is a freak, Ramos

19:31

does a lot of good things in games. He can

19:33

be a bit wild and unstructured, but in France, it's

19:35

going to work out for him. So

19:38

maybe Mofana is a bit of an area that they'll

19:40

see if they're weak in the back lane. Can we

19:42

go on to him at some stage? But it's going

19:44

to be a difficult one, especially if they don't break

19:46

down that midfield. Yeah. And

19:49

Mofana over Louis Biel,

19:51

Barry was the the

19:54

selection that kind of jumped out. Everyone was

19:56

instantly, their eyes going towards Luku because that's

19:58

the the gap that Antoine do. points

20:00

it left, both Moifana on the

20:02

wing, what does that indicate? I

20:08

think it's a reflection on Bia

20:10

Barrie's problems under high ball against

20:12

the Springboks in the quarter-final, led

20:14

to two tries and a couple

20:16

of key turnovers, he just didn't dominate

20:19

the air. I don't think

20:21

Moifana is a brilliant area winger as

20:23

well and he's been playing pretty

20:26

much all of this

20:28

rugby at 12 for Bordeaux

20:30

where he's been part of a brilliant

20:33

backline with obviously Penno and

20:36

Luku and Jellibert who were all playing

20:39

for Bordeaux and now playing for France this weekend so

20:41

there's a bit of continuity in that for them from

20:43

the same backline. I think

20:48

it's probably a bonus for Ireland because

20:52

I don't think, he obviously doesn't have anywhere near

20:54

as much pace and I think pure

20:57

pace is something that Ireland potentially could

20:59

struggle with. Obviously on the other wing

21:02

Penno is ridiculous but I

21:05

just think it's a conservative decision. Gattia

21:08

had the bravery to launch

21:11

Bia Barrie in, inexperienced

21:14

in the greatest show and

21:16

the pressure and in general he did

21:18

quite well. It's a very good African

21:22

kicking game we know and he had

21:24

these difficulties but I think he's been

21:26

pretty good for Bordeaux in the air

21:28

and on the ground and I think

21:31

that's a bonus for Ireland that

21:33

he's out. When

21:35

I saw that French team, to be

21:39

honest, I obviously Miafu's

21:41

injured so Willemsig gets called back but

21:45

the strength and depth, having Dante face,

21:48

the form of Penno's in, I

21:51

think Jellibert and Luku as a

21:53

combination are extremely dangerous and

21:55

they ripped apart Connaught in one of

21:58

the... the

22:00

European Cup and the back row, all

22:02

the three's come back from his little

22:05

bit of a break, it's been standing, Olivier,

22:08

Antro. Antonio basically changed

22:10

his mind about retiring. Mo

22:13

Baca has gone from being a replacement,

22:15

coming out to give impact to being a 60-minute player,

22:17

and now they have Marc-Charn back,

22:19

which obviously was a blow from him during

22:21

the World Cup, and then Nolan Lagerach, I

22:24

mean, Luca is class, but when

22:26

that game breaks up and people get tired, and

22:29

Nolan Lagerach, Rossy

22:31

92.9 is

22:34

incredibly dangerous. So yeah, Boudinet as

22:36

well from La Rochelle is a

22:38

very good six. So

22:41

yeah, on paper, I think France

22:43

look very, very strong, and if we're to

22:45

win this away

22:48

from home in Marseille, I think it'd be an unbelievable

22:50

result for us. And like, that's not saying Ireland are

22:52

a very good side, but I just

22:55

think given we're starting

22:57

a new cycle to get off to a

23:00

start with a win

23:02

over this French team, I

23:05

think it'd be a huge result for Van der Farr. Yeah,

23:07

in shorts, there are no mugs,

23:09

eventually, France. I'll come back around,

23:11

Johnny, to Calvin Nash, he spoke

23:14

a bit a little bit earlier

23:16

on, and kind of seen

23:18

him when he was just kind of

23:21

first coming through with Munster, and that

23:23

was something I wanted to talk about as well, because

23:25

it was last night when I was looking through

23:27

a few bits, it was you kind

23:29

of you could easily forget that like

23:32

Calvin Nash and Jordan Larmer started

23:35

on the left and right wings for the same

23:37

Ireland under 20 team. They're both 26 years old,

23:39

Jordan Larmer, I

23:41

think is two months older than

23:43

Nash. And Jordan

23:45

Larmer is has won 30

23:47

caps, and all of those coming up

23:50

until two years ago. And

23:53

then you've Calvin Nash has come in in the last

23:56

six, seven, well, the last 12 months, I suppose, since

23:58

he got his call up. But

24:00

it just kind of goes to show the two

24:02

very different paths players can

24:05

follow and how development

24:08

doesn't just follow the same path. You know, one

24:10

player can develop at a very different rate to

24:12

another, even when they're both prodigious

24:14

talents coming through at the age of 18 or 19

24:17

years of age into academies. Yeah,

24:20

it is. And I think for someone

24:22

like Calvin, you know, he's a confident

24:24

lad, like, I mean, I'm sure when he was coming

24:26

out of school, he would have taught this Edith Jordan-Armer's

24:28

trajectory, you know, and he probably

24:30

was on track for that. I don't

24:32

know what happened in between, but Jordan-Armer

24:34

has been in and out and he's

24:36

never really cemented it. And, you know,

24:38

you'd see his footwork is incredible and

24:40

he was very hard to stop. And

24:44

then you look at like, is he going forward or

24:46

is beating eight tacklers? Where is he going? And that's,

24:49

you know, I love watching him. I think he's

24:51

he's classed to watch him beating defenders and stuff.

24:53

But like beating defenders isn't actually the outcome. It's

24:55

going forward towards the trialing, isn't it? And

24:58

I think what what Calvin Ash does very

25:00

well, Erlze used to it. Conway

25:02

did it when they beat him and they're forward

25:04

and they're true. The next kind of line. And

25:07

that's what Calvin Ash is doing. And maybe there's

25:09

small bits and pieces within that. I think Jordan-Armer

25:13

kind of plodded his copybook once or twice in the air

25:15

as well, defensively when he went into 15. He's

25:18

loads of opportunities, but I think it's harsh on him.

25:20

He's playing really good rugby, you know, so I can

25:22

kind of I've been quite harsh

25:24

on him there because he's actually playing a lot of

25:26

good rugby with Instair, but I do think Calvin Ash

25:28

is the farmed choice. I think he's he's been really

25:30

good. His fundamentals are classed. And

25:33

he's fully worked his start. But like

25:35

you said, the development is different. Like, you know, he's had

25:37

to wait a long time, even in a good trajectory in

25:39

the last 12 months, you know, he

25:42

was probably feeling hard done by being left out of

25:44

the World Cup squad. You know, so I do wonder

25:46

if this was like at a different stage in this.

25:48

You know, I actually don't like to have him at

25:50

the World Cup cycle anymore, because I've learned that it's

25:53

not a four year thing anymore, as it must be

25:55

broken up or too long. And things change, but, you

25:57

know, if this was year four of

25:59

it. and you had a Jordan Armour

26:01

and Calvin Ash, would Andy Farrell be going

26:04

with fellas who've been around the squad a lot more and

26:06

would Larimer get in? I'm not sure because he obviously backed

26:08

Calvin Ash to get into the squad last year as well.

26:11

But I like the fact that we've had to change a few things.

26:13

Maybe it's because of injury, but I like the fact that it has

26:15

to change because by the time, you know, 2025 and 2027 come around,

26:20

you know, Mike Hanson would still be there and someone else would still

26:22

be there. So now we'll have Calvin Ash with hopefully 10 close

26:25

more caps under his belt as well if that's the change, you

26:27

know? So we got more options, but yeah, the development is funny

26:29

because you see that at underage as well. They develop

26:31

different stages just because a fella doesn't play under

26:33

18 schools or under 20s. Doesn't

26:36

mean he's not going to get into the international side later

26:39

on in his career and you develop through the club

26:41

as well. And I do think there's a lot of

26:43

people, you know, in that new state and different positions

26:45

that are just back at their club developing them. Like

26:47

they probably still would be in the

26:49

top process, but they're better off just developing

26:51

a bit more in their club and the

26:54

development curve would be different for them as well. So like I

26:57

don't expect it to be the same thing in 2025 or

27:00

so, but Calvin Ash is a very exciting one. I

27:02

can't wait to see how he gets on. And I hope he

27:04

does break the door down now and put

27:06

himself firmly in that position. Yeah,

27:09

and Burch, he had to be very, very patient at

27:11

Monster where when he came in initially, like you

27:14

look at the players who were ahead of him,

27:16

Keith Earls, Andrew Conway, Simon Ziba would have been

27:18

there initially when he came through. Then Mike Haley

27:20

arrives in. Like there was

27:22

a lot of heavy weight wing talent ahead of

27:25

him. Yeah, there was. And

27:28

probably I'm sure he had doubts

27:30

and sure he thought about maybe moving on somewhere else to get

27:32

more game time, but he stuck

27:34

to it. And also I think he kind of

27:36

coincided with most of the change in

27:38

how they play. And I agree, he's brilliant at chasing

27:40

kicks, et cetera. And that's one

27:42

of the reasons why he's probably got the nod. But I

27:45

think the other parts of his game is work right off

27:47

the ball, his footwork, et

27:49

cetera. And it's very similar to

27:51

how Ireland play. And he's probably not, look,

27:53

he's not a Damien Penno in terms of

27:57

try score and ability, but very few

27:59

wingers are. But the way

28:01

Ireland plays should suit him. And I think that's

28:03

a real opportunity for him. And he's going to

28:05

go from a system that's quite similar in Munster

28:07

to Ireland. And yeah, look at

28:09

that. We need we need

28:12

more depth and we need for us to come a

28:14

little bit left field. And he's come

28:16

a little bit slow, slower, through to the top. But

28:20

now he's there and he's on form. He also has massive confidence

28:22

as well the way things have been going for him. So it'd

28:26

be great to see him have a really

28:28

good debut and build on it. Even

28:30

that's the back of the three. He

28:35

turns the corner is he's very comfortable

28:37

on the ball. Not as like elusive as Mack Hansen,

28:39

maybe, but they're both as comfortable in possession. You know,

28:41

they do that a lot with Munster, isn't he, where

28:43

he's getting on the ball? If if Jack or the

28:46

10 aren't around, he's there and he's stepping up to

28:48

first receiver. He's getting in behind that that part of

28:50

last. And when he gets there, he

28:52

is positioning is really nice. He's so tucked and he just

28:54

appears at last minute. So he's obviously been doing a lot

28:56

of work at that. But he's a clever player. You know,

28:59

I think if he's got work done, then he's getting on

29:01

the ball and he's running these lanes. That's why he reminds

29:03

me of Conde, or like, you know, Doug Aula was the

29:05

teacher in Munster for a long time in terms of

29:07

how to hide for so long. But those wingers

29:09

seem to be getting really good at it. And

29:11

he's he's definitely someone that will get himself into

29:13

dangerous positions if he's given the freedom within the

29:15

Irish system, like Burchas says, to get

29:17

into the Mack Hansen role and just go roaming. Yeah,

29:20

it'd be really interesting to see him on Friday night. Let's

29:23

talk Jack Crowley, then, because it's

29:26

his tenth cap. It's it almost feels

29:28

like a second debut because we're obviously

29:30

into this post Johnny Sexton era. Burch,

29:34

given the size of the occasion and,

29:36

you know, you're starting a new World Cup cycle, it's

29:39

it's probably hard to expect a perfect performance

29:41

out of him this weekend. But what do

29:44

you what do you want to see from

29:46

him, even if it isn't even

29:48

if it isn't 10 out of 10 lights out? What is

29:50

the what are the pillars you want to

29:52

see? And basically

29:55

just what he does all the time. He

29:57

seems to take responsibility, seems to calm. a

30:00

good variety in his game. I'm not

30:02

overly worried about him.

30:04

He'll function. If we get

30:07

good ball, Jack

30:09

Crowley will make good use of

30:11

us. And if we're under the pump, I

30:14

wouldn't expect him to be right over.

30:17

He's the best 10 in Ireland at the moment on

30:20

form. And obviously his

30:22

age profile is phenomenal.

30:26

I think he's going to be

30:29

there thereabouts for a long time. So

30:31

I just do what he does most

30:33

weeks for Munster. I did for

30:35

the Irish in the 20s before that. And Cor Con, he's

30:39

always been a very accomplished player

30:41

and seems to have the mentality

30:43

to match. So yeah, I

30:46

just think now's his chance. It was funny. I only

30:48

heard the other day that's when he got his first

30:50

star for Ireland. He actually ended up having to wear

30:52

Sexton's jersey. I didn't know that.

30:55

And now obviously he looks like he's

30:57

in prime position to replace him. So

31:00

there's a nice link

31:02

there. But now it's about him. And look,

31:05

he's not going to be Johnny Sexton. He's

31:07

not going to be your own nagar. He's

31:09

not going to be Eric Elwood. He'll be

31:11

himself and he'll do it his own way.

31:13

And that's why I'm certainly

31:15

excited to watch him and not

31:18

have too much expectation. But

31:22

I think he can become an

31:24

incredibly important player for Ireland. And

31:27

Johnny, you hinted at it earlier

31:30

on as well. How important is it that

31:32

he doesn't try to go out and be a

31:35

Johnny Sexton tribute band? Yeah,

31:37

I think Jack has matured quite

31:39

a bit as well, even though he's young.

31:42

He didn't need to mature before his time. But he's not

31:44

going to go and try and win the game on his

31:46

own. Now, I think the most important part is that he

31:48

just plays people around the pitch. And

31:51

he has his moments with Monster. He'll have

31:53

a chip and he'll have a bit of

31:55

a break or whatever he does. He'll definitely

31:57

have his moments. But he needs to control

31:59

the kicking game. especially with France, you know, you see

32:01

the Sean Edwards clip during the week, they're

32:03

going to kick the ball and they're going to kick it out of their

32:05

house. So I think he just needs to make sure he doesn't get bored

32:07

within that and just put his team with

32:10

their own strategies into the right areas of the pitch and just

32:12

allow Fela to floor on the pitch. Cause it's going to be

32:14

a hard enough battle at the game line and a hard enough

32:16

battle at set piece that he just needs to

32:18

make sure that they creep over the game line as much

32:20

as many times as possible. But it's interesting, I only thought

32:22

of it there as we're speaking, you nearly went

32:24

to Narashev, you know, and now he's

32:27

a front runner, like for Fela to back himself

32:29

with that, but I think there

32:31

was a lot of thought out there that, you know, you're

32:34

behind the lot here, you know, take the opportunity to work

32:36

under Raj in a different country and decent contract and all

32:38

that. Like there was people talking about that, you know, and

32:40

all of a sudden Jack was like, no, I'm not going

32:42

anywhere. I'll, I'll kazump Ben Healy

32:44

and I'll get into this and I'll get into that. And

32:46

all of a sudden he's a front runner with not much

32:48

challenge, but at the same time, you know,

32:50

when you, like Frawley

32:53

hasn't been backed by Leinster, but I think he is

32:55

backed within this Irish system. We saw that before he

32:57

got a couple of injuries that he was backed within

32:59

that system. So, you know, if

33:01

Jack can manage him around the pitch and all that, I think he would

33:03

be the front runner. I don't think there'd be much of a challenge, but

33:05

if he starts to creak, Frawley will

33:07

come in and he'll control that game. So like you,

33:09

you kind of touched on it there. It's like a

33:11

second debut. You see that a lot with, with players.

33:13

It's like second season syndrome for him. It's not a

33:15

second season, but it kind of is with Ireland. Like,

33:17

you know, he had the Australia game in November. He

33:19

had a good run at it before the war I

33:21

called, but this is like a new wave of him

33:23

now. And he needs to not maybe be on the

33:26

same graph as what he

33:28

was on, but if you can't stay on

33:30

that graph, maybe one or two people can, but like,

33:32

you know, realistically he's not going to stay on that

33:34

graph, but he needs to keep trending upwards. Or there

33:36

will be a challenge all of a sudden. And as

33:38

he knows more than anyone else, the

33:40

landscape can change for the better or the worse.

33:43

So he needs just control things, keep them on

33:45

the front foot, win the kicking game, or at

33:47

least compete in that with France. And he's going

33:49

to, I know that he can under pressure in

33:52

there as well. He's got a weird confidence in

33:54

times where you doubt yourself that he just flows

33:56

through it. Like Burt said, you know, he played a

33:58

Carcane, stepped up to that level, didn't really. any fear

34:00

which you wouldn't expect him to step up a monster.

34:02

He's just a player that finds the same level as

34:04

what he's playing at. He could be a lion and

34:06

he'll just play. He'll just keep going

34:08

with that. You kind of have to have

34:10

that for an out half as well don't you? Just that complete

34:14

self-confidence. Yeah you

34:16

do. There's enough of us to play in

34:18

that position like questioners. I was like Jack

34:20

would kind of teach you a lesson that

34:23

you don't have much time to be going

34:25

around questioning yourself because the whole lot of

34:27

the rest of the team are relying on

34:29

you putting them into

34:31

the right position. So he's unreal. He's not

34:33

cocky by any means. He probably wouldn't even

34:35

call himself confident. Sometimes that exudes

34:38

out of the person and they don't even realise

34:40

it but I think that's the case with him

34:42

because he's very down to earth. Works extraordinarily hard

34:44

but people feel confidence from him which is the

34:46

most important thing in his position that the players

34:48

around him think that he's confident at least because

34:50

they'll go with him. And Barca,

34:52

would it fill you with a bit

34:54

of confidence or assuredness knowing that

34:57

he's got pretty good experience around him in

34:59

that back line there where Jimison

35:02

Gibson Park is starting inside him and he's

35:04

got Pundi Akki and Robbie Henshaw outside

35:07

his shoulder. No I think it's

35:09

it's ideal and obviously he picked up a lot of time

35:12

at OzLads in November of Six Nations

35:15

last year. World Cup Camp

35:18

and he has to feel very

35:20

comfortable now around that Irish setup and

35:22

his right to be there

35:24

and then yeah look at

35:26

the back row he's experienced. It's a very experienced Irish

35:28

team and he's

35:31

also when you compare him to some

35:33

of the the lads of Péc Testerub

35:35

from France he's very

35:38

experienced and we're doing a sort of

35:40

put them in there and

35:43

there could be long-term value in that or it could be something

35:45

that's holding us back but I

35:48

don't think he'll be overly

35:52

worried about having a

35:55

right to be on that field and that's exactly

35:57

what the way he should feel proven

36:00

to have to be of that quality.

36:03

Right we're getting down into the very

36:05

very final minutes here for predictions. A

36:08

couple of other games we'll touch on them

36:11

very very quickly. Saturday we've got Wales against

36:13

Scotland. If Burch

36:16

when you look around at the Six Nations this year and the

36:18

amount of change there is in various

36:20

teams whether it's coaching or captains

36:23

or out-haves being gone Scotland

36:27

probably have the most continuity out of

36:29

everyone. They've got England

36:31

and France at home this year. If the stars are ever

36:35

aligning for Scotland to actually go and do something

36:37

should this be the year for them to do

36:39

it? I'm not saying will they but are

36:42

the pieces falling into place for them to

36:46

have it within themselves to take advantage? Yeah

36:49

obviously it's one or better chances

36:51

but I certainly

36:54

wouldn't be back in them to do

36:56

anything massive. But

36:59

I think the biggest point is it's

37:02

pretty much now or never or certainly

37:04

over the next two or three years because age grade

37:07

Ruby in Scotland is

37:09

an absolute disaster and

37:11

obviously the project player rule you

37:14

know if you look at the number of project players

37:16

coming in it was six

37:18

seven years ago where you know they

37:20

went really went aggressively and targeted that which

37:22

was and then it was a three-year

37:25

qualification period there's not as

37:27

many project players coming into Scotland and as I

37:29

said they're under 20s under 18s are

37:31

just way off the level so you'd be

37:34

worried about Scottish Ruby and this generation

37:36

and this year next year maybe the

37:38

year after a squad of the push

37:41

they'll have to do something or as

37:43

it looks like those dark years. Yeah

37:45

I think now or never is the good way to sum

37:47

it up as you said and then quickly

37:49

then England I'm struggling to get

37:52

a read on them did they overachieve at

37:54

the World Cup? Are they

37:56

going to be much better you know with

37:59

the division of time

38:01

to actually prepare the Steve Bortles didn't have

38:03

last year Felix Jones coming in as well.

38:06

And then that's also offset by the

38:08

fact that there's no own farallen, you know, they've lost

38:10

a couple of high profile players

38:12

to to international retirement.

38:16

What are your general thoughts on England's coming into this because

38:18

I'm struggling to get a read on them. I'm interested to

38:21

see how they do. Yeah,

38:24

obviously they had decided to draw that we've all

38:26

been complaining about for a long time but they

38:28

worked their way through the World Cup and we're

38:30

building an identity with that and they were comfortable

38:33

what that was. But I think Steve Bortles has

38:35

had more time there after starting their rebuild if

38:37

you want to put it that way. You

38:40

know World Cup here. So before everyone else.

38:42

I think they're probably further down

38:44

the track. They should be a much more competitive

38:46

six nation. So I actually do have fears

38:48

over them being very good. Because

38:51

I don't want them to be as good. I want to earn it obviously to

38:53

be better than them. But I do

38:55

think they'll be, you know, if you look at who's going

38:58

to win it, Ireland and France were runaway last year. You

39:00

didn't think anyone's going to touch them. It was the first

39:02

game of both the six nations in the last two years.

39:05

France beat Ireland and won it. Ireland beat France

39:07

and won it. I think England will start to

39:09

close that gap a small bit more. Especially

39:12

with the continuity of Steve Bortles. Yeah, they've

39:14

missed a couple of players in and out.

39:18

Marcus Smith isn't any greater news

39:20

for them. But I do think they're going to

39:22

start well. And I think they're a challenge for

39:24

it. How close do

39:26

you think Bortles, England will be to Ireland

39:29

and France? They do have a nice schedule. Yeah.

39:31

Where they can build themselves in. Ireland

39:33

and France are their final two games. I

39:37

think Italy and Wales are their first two. So

39:39

there is an opportunity to get a nice little

39:41

bit of momentum moving through the tournament. Yeah,

39:44

I'd be worried about them to be honest.

39:46

I think that

39:49

they've that semifinal defeat in

39:51

South Africa. They actually are

39:53

honestly finished the World Cup. Probably feeling a bit

39:56

better about themselves in France and Ireland. got

40:00

the job late, it was going to be just get

40:02

to this World Cup, get the best possible result out

40:04

of it. Players are taking more

40:07

ownership, you know,

40:09

even around contracts there's now, they've got

40:11

rid of the player agency, it's Jamie

40:13

George, Alex Ganges, etc. who are negotiating

40:15

on their behalf, they're talking about improving

40:18

the through-income experience, being more

40:21

open, kind of copying a little bit of

40:23

what far of the culture he created and

40:27

have some decent talent and the friendships got better. So yeah,

40:29

I'd be very respectful of England

40:31

this year. Yeah, so they're

40:33

playing Italy first up this weekend on

40:36

Saturday. Wales against Scotland will be the

40:38

live game on RT2 and RT Player

40:40

on Saturday afternoon, that kicks off 4.45.

40:45

France and Ireland is on RT Radio 1,

40:48

8pm Irish time kickoff for

40:51

that live commentary. Final calls then guys, who

40:53

wins between, first of all, France

40:55

and Ireland? Johnny, I'll give you the honour. France.

40:59

Birch. France. And

41:01

who wins the Six Nations? France.

41:05

France all the way. Okay, well, fingers

41:08

crossed you're wrong and hopefully we'll get

41:10

to talk about that next week. Burners

41:12

and Johnny, thanks a million for joining

41:14

us and we'll be back with the

41:16

RT podcast this time next week. Thanks

41:22

for watching.