Episode Transcript
Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.
Use Ctrl + F to search
0:00
Hello everybody . It's Alex here from
0:02
the remote work life podcast , and
0:04
I have a really important
0:06
guest with me today and I
0:09
have Martika Swabey . Martika Swabey who
0:11
is the founder of Benevolent
0:14
Health and Benevolent Health
0:16
specializing in providing expertise
0:18
in mental health through
0:20
consulting , coaching
0:22
and and mentoring so improving
0:24
emotional well-being through
0:26
coaching , consulting and mentoring
0:29
and I think Martika
0:31
is very important because , obviously , the conversation
0:34
around well-being at work
0:36
is has been a growing conversation over the last
0:38
few years now , but given
0:41
our current situation , in
0:43
the sense that we've been accelerated towards
0:45
working from home in very unusual circumstances
0:48
, martika's expertise
0:51
is very welcome and very
0:53
much needed . So I had
0:55
to have Martika on here today . So , martika , thank
0:57
you so much for giving of your time today for
0:59
the podcast .
1:01
Pleasure , alex , thank you so much for having
1:03
me . As you said , mental health is such
1:05
an important topic at the moment and
1:08
I think , uh , you know , with extended
1:10
lockdown periods and
1:12
you know , this sort of drastic
1:16
shift towards Remote working
1:18
has been a big change for some people
1:20
. I know , um , a lot of the people
1:22
that listen to your podcast have been remote
1:24
working for a long time , so much more
1:26
experienced with that , and but I do
1:29
think , um , you know , well-being
1:31
and staying Emotionally
1:33
resilient and healthy is always
1:35
an important topic and a topic
1:37
that is often overlooked in
1:39
in all of our lives , so it's
1:41
great to be here talking to you about that today .
1:44
No , you're very welcome . I just knew that
1:47
we had to have you on , martika
1:49
and um , towards
1:52
the the middle portion of the of the show , we're
1:54
going to really be talking about Really
1:57
, some , some key issues , or
2:00
some key , I suppose , what
2:03
would you call it ? I suppose techniques , maybe that
2:05
could help you to help you or
2:07
your team , um , if you
2:09
in a situation where your
2:12
team is perhaps not not
2:14
coping as well as they could be . So , um
2:16
, keep a , keep a listen out for
2:18
that . But what I really want to know , as
2:20
I always do with the podcast
2:23
, is Martika . I want to find out a bit more about
2:25
you first and how you got to where
2:27
you are Today , because you've
2:29
been practicing for a for a number
2:31
of years now .
2:33
Yes , so I've been working mental
2:35
health probably the last 15 years
2:38
and doing a range
2:40
of things . So you know , I really started
2:42
on front line working
2:44
with people , with fictions and
2:46
and then working with more complex
2:49
mental health like personality disorders
2:51
, bipolar and I
2:54
am retrained as a psychotherapist
2:56
nine years ago at Birkbeck a
2:58
university and my
3:01
study psychodynamic psychotherapy
3:03
and organizations and
3:05
and have been working as
3:07
a consultant and training in
3:10
corporate environments for the last five years now
3:12
. So I'm really taking
3:14
some of my skills online
3:17
because I think that in order
3:19
to reach more people , we really need to
3:21
have access to stuff
3:23
much more in the kind of what I would call the
3:25
preventative end
3:27
of mental health . So stress , anxiety
3:29
, depression , things that we all suffer with , and and
3:32
I think you know , when we speak about mental
3:35
health like we always assume
3:37
it's like some kind of really serious
3:39
issue
3:42
, like if you google mental
3:44
health , you see like people at silos yes
3:48
, look really scary
3:50
and you know it's still a lot
3:52
of stigma around mental health , even though you
3:55
know we are trying to shift that narrative
3:57
in the UK . But I think there's
3:59
something that people feel shameful or
4:03
disappointed in themselves if
4:05
they are struggling
4:07
with a mental health issue
4:10
. So I think that's probably where
4:13
it's good to start in terms of mental
4:15
health versus mental
4:17
illness , because I think that actually 75%
4:21
of the population I mean you've probably all
4:23
seen the stats one in four people will have
4:25
a mental health issue and really
4:27
what they're talking about is mental illness . So the
4:29
things that I've just identified
4:32
, but the reality is 75%
4:34
of us are in the mental
4:36
health category . So actually
4:39
, from the perspective of
4:42
mental health , we
4:44
are the people that are healthy and coping
4:47
and probably have quite a healthy
4:49
and balanced lifestyle and
4:51
physically , mentally and socially . But sometimes
4:54
we drop into that kind of struggling category
4:56
because something happens in our
4:59
life , like a bereavement or
5:01
a divorce or
5:03
some issues with our children
5:06
, or something happens
5:08
unexpected , even COVID . So
5:11
, that's come along and kind of disrupted
5:13
all of our lives and
5:15
the ramifications of this in terms
5:18
of business and finance is going to impact
5:20
us mentally
5:23
and socially . So it's easy
5:25
for anyone to kind of tip into that
5:27
and struggling category
5:31
and actually that's where you need to be
5:33
emotionally resilient
5:35
.
5:36
And what got you into this ? Because , I mean , obviously
5:39
this is where your passion lies and you've
5:41
helped a lot of people Well , not just individuals
5:43
, but , like you said , you help corporates as well
5:45
. What brought you to on this
5:48
path ?
5:49
So I mean , I
5:51
really have an interest in this . It's something
5:54
I love people , I love being around people
5:56
and I remember when
5:58
I was like 16 , 17
6:00
, just left school , started working in a bank
6:03
and thinking , oh my God , I'm going to be doing this till
6:05
I'm 60 . And I need
6:07
to do something that I love and like
6:09
I went to study counselling
6:11
and I remember
6:14
being like the youngest in the class and thinking
6:16
nobody's going to take me seriously
6:18
, you
6:21
know , in my early 20s
6:23
, and so I really went
6:25
out in the field and got a lot of experience
6:27
and I was talking about , you
6:30
know , earlier . I was talking about some of the
6:32
stuff that I've done in terms of frontline
6:34
and really seeing , like , different walks of
6:36
life and different people in
6:39
terms of mental
6:41
health and mental health issues . And it
6:43
was later that I came into doing consultancy
6:47
and working , you know , in large NHS
6:49
programs to change how we deliver
6:51
health to like health populations
6:53
and , more recently , corporates
6:56
. So my journey's been
6:59
one , I guess , of grassroots and
7:01
, you know , working at the frontline
7:03
, really working with people . But my heart
7:06
is to help people and I remember when
7:08
I was working in the NHS as a psychotherapist
7:10
and one of
7:12
my patients came in the room and he
7:15
told me he'd been on a waiting list
7:17
for like 18 months
7:19
. Thank you
7:21
, because this was someone that had a
7:23
lot of issues , really needed
7:25
therapy , had been through their
7:28
GP , been to kind of
7:30
what we call like a CBT
7:32
IAP type program . You know
7:35
where you get six weeks telephone support
7:37
or you know a counsellor
7:40
face to face , but very time limited , and
7:42
you know he had a lot of issues
7:44
that he really wanted to get underneath and were
7:46
keeping him stuck in life and I was like you
7:49
know , wow , the waiting lists are so
7:51
long in some areas for some people
7:53
and so actually , how can we get
7:55
this to people quicker ? And I believe
7:58
that it starts from a preventative perspective
8:00
and because actually , you know , if
8:03
we don't have an awareness
8:05
around mental health and
8:07
staying resilient , then it's much
8:09
easier to fall into those kind of struggling
8:11
and unwell categories . And unfortunately
8:14
, in 2018 , one of my
8:17
long term friends
8:19
who we've been to school with , grew up with
8:21
he really struggled
8:23
with his mental health and had gone to get help , perhaps
8:25
wasn't successful and unfortunately
8:28
he killed himself . And there's so
8:30
many people you know that are struggling
8:33
, suffering in silence , like something
8:35
like 800,000 people every year
8:37
commit suicide , and you
8:39
know suicide is not necessary
8:41
, they are
8:44
avoidable deaths . So you
8:46
know we really need to be more open
8:48
and honest about this stuff and be able
8:50
to feel comfortable to have
8:52
these conversations . So really
8:54
, that's why I'm on a mission to kind
8:56
of change the narrative on
8:58
mental health and make it a lot more accessible
9:02
for just everyday people .
9:04
And with that mission . Thank you for
9:06
that , Martik . I think that's great because with
9:09
that mission , do you think that
9:11
people are more freely and openly
9:13
having the conversations now than
9:16
they were ? Are you seeing any sort of like
9:18
changes , because now you deal with
9:20
individuals as well as corporates Are you seeing a bit more
9:22
freedom and a
9:25
bit more ? Some
9:27
of the stigma has been broken or they're still in place
9:29
.
9:29
Yeah , I mean , I think that we've come
9:31
a long way . You know , I think if you
9:33
look at the kind of history , particularly in
9:36
Britain , I think that
9:38
you know , sort of 50 years ago we had
9:40
those old school asylums . I
9:42
mean some people would say that they still exist
9:45
. When you look at kind of more serious mental
9:47
health issues , you know
9:49
where people are under
9:52
the Mental Health Act and are restrained
9:54
. That treatment is still
9:56
kind of similar to the old
9:58
asylum model . But
10:00
I think there is a recognition in
10:03
what I would call clinical , medicalized
10:05
world that actually mental
10:08
health isn't always about medication
10:10
and , you know
10:13
, treatment in a kind
10:15
of medicalized model . I think there's a lot
10:17
more openness and we're a lot more aware now
10:19
of actually , you know , our nutrition
10:21
impacts our moods and our mental health
10:23
and exercise does and
10:26
all of these alternative holistic
10:28
approaches . So mindfulness has become
10:30
much more popular in
10:34
this day and age . You know
10:36
yoga and I think people are much
10:38
more open to kind of spirituality , and
10:40
I'm not just talking about , you know
10:42
, organized religion , even though
10:44
that has massive impacts on mental
10:47
health and community . I'm
10:49
talking also about art , music
10:51
, drama and being able to express yourself
10:53
creatively . I think there's , you
10:55
know , much more openness to recognize
10:58
these things actually impact how
11:00
we feel and connect as
11:02
human beings . So I think
11:04
we have moved on . But when you
11:06
look at , you know , if you look at
11:08
kind of traditional corporate models
11:10
in terms of treatment
11:13
to mental health , if you look at the best
11:15
EAP programs so the employee
11:18
and support assistance programs
11:20
actually the uptake of
11:22
those is usually around 7%
11:25
. In a really good one , you might
11:27
get it up to sort of 10 , 11% . So
11:29
, and when you Pharma
11:32
did a report in 2018
11:35
around the state of play
11:37
with mental health across the nation
11:39
and it was something like 11%
11:41
of people would tell their line manager if they were
11:43
struggling with a mental health
11:46
issue . And then you look at the
11:48
stats on the back of that , so you
11:50
know absenteeism and reasons
11:52
people are off sick and actually
11:54
musculoskeletal issues is
11:57
kind of the number one issue and
12:00
you know , when we look at this , actually
12:02
how much is stress
12:04
, how much stress is impacted
12:06
on those kinds of injuries like back
12:09
pain and other
12:11
musculoskeletal
12:14
illnesses . So they're all interlinked
12:16
and actually , how do we start to unpick those
12:19
and understand what it really is ? But
12:21
the reality is most of us wouldn't be comfortable
12:23
phoning up our boss and saying
12:25
you know I'm really stressed today . I
12:27
can't come into work . It's still seen
12:29
as a bit of a cop out or
12:31
an excuse that you're making
12:33
and some people will always use you
12:36
know , a headache on
12:39
a Friday afternoon or you know whatever
12:41
it is to make
12:43
excuses . But some people are actually really
12:46
, really genuine and you know how
12:48
can we make those
12:50
kinds of conversations and discussions
12:52
more acceptable and reduce
12:55
that stigma .
12:56
Yeah , and I think that's a good segue
12:58
, isn't it , into the conversation
13:01
that we want to have really , which is around how
13:03
we can help
13:05
managers ? I guess in
13:08
a way to I
13:11
suppose , I don't know , is
13:14
it identify those things in their teams
13:16
, or because
13:18
, really well , first
13:20
and foremost that you mentioned at the
13:22
top the differences between
13:25
mental health and mental
13:27
illness . Should we just explore that for a little bit before
13:29
we dive into the discussion about how
13:33
, basically , you could help managers or how managers
13:35
can help their teams ? What are
13:37
those differences between mental
13:40
health and mental illness ? Because
13:42
you said that was it . 75%
13:44
of us fall into that mental health
13:46
category .
13:47
Yeah , so I think typically
13:50
we look at mental health and , like
13:52
I said , we think about mental health as mental
13:54
illness . So you know we have
13:57
this kind of stigma around
13:59
the word mental health and actually
14:02
I see mental health and
14:05
what I teach in the programs
14:07
that I offer is
14:10
actually mental health around . I call
14:12
mental fitness . So sleep
14:14
, nutrition , fitness , stress
14:17
, anxiety and
14:20
all those kinds of I would
14:23
call lower level mental
14:25
health issues that we can all
14:27
tip into the struggling
14:30
or unwell side . But actually
14:32
when we think about mental health , often we think about
14:34
mental illness and mental illness
14:37
being something that's
14:39
more formally diagnosed and recognised like
14:42
bipolar disorder or personality disorder or
14:46
suicide and mental health . So the
14:48
more people fall into this kind of mental health and
14:51
mental health problems , the more
14:53
people that fall into this kind of mental health
14:56
and mental health problems
14:58
and the more serious
15:00
end of the spectrum . And I'm not saying that
15:03
those things are important and
15:06
we shouldn't have an awareness of them , but
15:09
actually I think from a preventative perspective , to
15:14
stop people falling into the more serious of
15:16
the spectrum and actually if we could increase the
15:18
awareness of how to stay mentally
15:21
fit and healthy there
15:23
and recognise when
15:26
you're perhaps working under a bit too much
15:28
pressure . Actually
15:30
we can really have an impact on
15:33
that , whereas I think once you tip
15:35
into being unwell and mental illness
15:37
, the trajectory or recovery
15:40
is much
15:42
longer . So I
15:44
think to have the most impact and
15:46
we definitely need to focus on
15:48
the healthy coping end
15:50
of the spectrum the 75%
15:53
as opposed to mental
15:55
illness . And if you like reading papers
15:57
and you're interested in that sort of stuff , keys and
16:00
Hubbert have got a really good paper on
16:02
that around the mental health spectrum and
16:04
they talk a lot about kind of how
16:07
to you know the messaging around
16:09
healthy and balanced lifestyle
16:11
for physical , mental and social wellbeing
16:14
.
16:16
I'll have to refer to that , I think , in the show notes , because I
16:18
think I'm sure there will be people out there who
16:20
are interested in
16:22
this , whether from a point of view of being a manager
16:24
or being in that situation themselves
16:26
. I think it's important that we link to that , so I'll
16:29
get the link from you at the end of the show so we can
16:31
include that . What's some of the ? Sorry
16:33
? Go ahead , martika .
16:34
The important thing is and what I
16:36
kind of want to bring home is actually mental
16:38
health . We all have mental health , you
16:40
know we all have it , and it's not
16:42
something that's out there or
16:45
affects somebody else . We all
16:47
have mental health .
16:49
No , I can imagine , and I
16:51
think it's probably like
16:53
you said , that 75% is a big number
16:56
and I'm sure there are people who
16:58
have issues that perhaps they don't
17:01
recognise in themselves or probably they don't recognise
17:03
in other people who are on
17:05
their team , and they just soldier on
17:08
and I suppose that's the whole . You
17:10
know the British mentality , which I suppose
17:12
has changed a bit , having that stiff up a lip
17:14
and just sort of really digging in there
17:16
and getting on with certain things , you know , but it
17:19
doesn't always Things
17:21
just get worse , don't they ?
17:22
Yeah , I mean , I think if you're a home worker
17:25
as well or remote working , you used to work
17:27
in kind of by yourself and
17:29
on your own initiative . I think you perhaps
17:31
have more of a valence tendency to just
17:33
get on with stuff , because actually
17:35
that's why you're most
17:38
of the time working remotely
17:40
is because you are a kind of go-getter
17:42
and can , you know , get on with things
17:45
and don't necessarily need
17:47
that environment
17:49
where you're kind of you know , in a structured
17:52
environment where you're given
17:54
tasks and told what to do , that you can
17:56
, you know you can think quite easily
17:58
independently . And I think one
18:00
of the challenges are , when you work
18:02
remotely or independently actually
18:05
is a susceptibility
18:08
to kind of isolation or
18:11
loneliness and actually connection
18:13
. Community is one
18:15
of the biggest things people
18:17
look for in terms
18:19
of improving their mental health . They want a community
18:22
that they can connect with and that
18:25
provides support . I mean , in my years
18:27
of working in this field and
18:29
you know where you see people recover
18:31
and get better and really change
18:34
their lives are people that are connected
18:36
into something beyond the kind
18:38
of treatment , if you like
18:41
, all the mental health kind of medicalized
18:43
pathway in terms of medication
18:46
and go to the doctor , psychiatrist
18:49
, therapist for treatment . It needs to be
18:51
much broader than that . It really needs to be
18:53
integrated into our you know
18:55
, into our community and to our social
18:57
networks . So I think
18:59
there's probably a susceptibility
19:02
to not ask for help
19:04
if you're
19:06
struggling . And also if you're a manager
19:09
managing remote workers
19:11
, it's really hard sometimes to
19:13
notice changes in your team
19:15
or notice those early morning signs . So
19:18
, you know , for persons , behavior changes
19:20
and they have decreased
19:22
productivity or performance or a low
19:24
morale , and I think
19:27
it's much harder to recognise
19:30
that when you're not in the same space with someone
19:33
seeing them every day and because
19:35
there's not that connection . And
19:37
so I guess , as managers , as
19:39
remote workers , how
19:42
do you create those
19:44
communities , those connections with
19:47
your staff , with each other , to
19:50
have that ? I know personally . I mean
19:52
I homework a lot and
19:55
one of the things that I'm
19:57
much more proactive with as
20:00
a business owner is
20:02
having networks and being
20:05
accountable to
20:07
a network , a community
20:09
, a mentor . So I
20:11
always have a mentor I
20:13
find that really helps me to stay accountable
20:15
and focused and where I can be really open
20:17
and honest and also a
20:20
community of other
20:22
like minded people that
20:24
are in a similar situation
20:26
. You can just reach out to them and
20:28
have a meet-up . I know with
20:30
lockdown that's changing that and
20:33
also for me , I'm part of a
20:37
shared working space where I go and
20:39
work and I see regular
20:41
people . But I've really had to make
20:43
an effort since I transitioned to working
20:46
at home . In the last five years
20:48
I've really had to make an effort
20:50
in terms of my network
20:53
kind of outside of work and
20:55
maintaining that
20:57
network and putting more of an effort
20:59
into having regular meet-ups
21:02
with colleagues , with
21:04
friends , with other
21:06
professionals and all my routines
21:08
that go around that . So , like my gym workouts
21:13
, I've got a group of friends
21:15
from the gym that I see
21:18
regularly . Obviously now with lockdown
21:20
we are not able to do that , but
21:23
before that and
21:25
the things that you enjoy that
21:27
you make sure you schedule in those
21:29
activities that you
21:34
like and enjoy . So a lot of that's been
21:36
done on Zoom now and I know people are
21:38
trying to get to that , having
21:40
Zoom fatigue . But yeah , once
21:42
we get back to the
21:45
new normal or going out again
21:47
, it's like how do you have those connections
21:50
outside of
21:53
your being kind of remote
21:56
working , potentially
21:58
by yourself all day or
22:00
just with your family ?
22:02
Going back to what you said about warning
22:05
signs , because
22:07
, like you said , there's not as much
22:09
contact when you're working remotely . You
22:11
don't have those spontaneous
22:14
interactions where you can observe somebody's body
22:16
language in the same way that you would , as if
22:18
they were right in front of you . How
22:21
do you then begin
22:24
to ? I know you mentioned productivity levels , but
22:27
how do you spot those warning signs ? What are
22:29
the symptoms that you could potentially look
22:33
out for ? Are they any physical , or how
22:36
do they sort of show themselves ?
22:38
So I think it's really one of the things
22:40
that people ask me all the time
22:42
is around how to have
22:45
conversations about
22:48
mental health . How do you bring it up , how do
22:50
you have these discussions and what do you say
22:52
? People ask me all the time what do you say ? And
22:55
the reality is that you can't really script this
22:57
. That's the truth . So anyone
22:59
that tells you you can , they're not telling
23:02
you the truth . But what I want you to think
23:04
about is a frame , and
23:06
I want you to think about a frame
23:08
in terms of the cycle of change
23:10
and the idea
23:13
that actually , people are
23:15
either not aware
23:17
that they need to change and
23:19
have no idea of
23:21
change and what we call that pre-contemplative
23:24
or they do have an awareness
23:27
and they want to take some kind
23:29
of action , but they're not sure yet
23:31
, or they're not sure how to do it , or
23:33
they might be taking an action , but actually
23:35
, if someone's taking an action and doing something
23:37
, then I'd say that they're pretty
23:40
kind of well equipped and doing
23:42
something about their issues , and so
23:44
what you have to listen out for is actually
23:46
what we call like change talk
23:49
conversations , and
23:52
the motivation that people express
23:54
and their commitment to change can
23:56
really be heard in
23:58
what they say , and this just
24:01
doesn't apply to mental health . This can
24:03
apply to any manager
24:05
managing
24:07
a team , and what I
24:09
would say was really listen out for
24:11
those kinds of change
24:14
talk statements
24:16
, because people that are contemplating
24:20
or thinking about change will have
24:23
a desire and a reason and
24:25
a need to do something and they will be expressing
24:27
that in the way that they
24:31
talk and they'll be taking action
24:33
or thinking about taking action . So they'll be
24:36
talking about their commitment and activation
24:38
to change . But
24:40
those that aren't aware
24:42
, I think we
24:44
have to be much more proactive and that's why
24:46
I think it's really important to have preventative
24:49
mental health , that you
24:51
, just as a norm , you
24:54
have certain things on the agenda
24:56
, so it could be that one
24:58
month you're talking about sleep hygiene
25:00
, another month you could be
25:02
talking about fitness , another month
25:04
about stress and actually
25:07
being proactively , bringing
25:09
up these conversations and asking
25:11
people how they're feeling
25:13
, what's going on for them , and
25:15
really kind of listening to
25:18
what they're saying back . So I
25:21
think it's really important to be able to
25:23
listen and I think we'll get into some of the listening
25:25
stuff in a bit but
25:28
to be able to listen to what
25:30
people are saying , to kind of cue where
25:32
they are in terms
25:35
of what's going on for them , because you don't
25:37
have that daily contact
25:39
and you don't have those opportunistic
25:41
chats . You know in front of the water
25:43
fountain or in the kitchen making a coffee
25:46
, or you know when you're passing in the corridor
25:48
. So it's been much more intentional
25:51
about those check-ins
25:53
and how you use
25:55
them .
25:56
And in terms of those check-ins , I think , especially
25:59
now where we've just like forced to
26:02
be on , you
26:04
know Zoom all the time
26:06
. I say we're forced , but more
26:09
and more people , who perhaps aren't used to these
26:11
kinds of video conversations
26:13
, are becoming , like you mentioned , having
26:16
the fatigue as a result of these conversations
26:18
. How do we then make
26:20
sure we strike a balance between , you
26:22
know , having these change-tort conversations , so that
26:24
the person on
26:27
the other end of the line doesn't then
26:29
experience that sort of scenario
26:31
?
26:33
Yeah , I really encourage you to up-up-scale
26:36
as a manager and I think that I
26:39
think kind of like facing and
26:43
having these types
26:45
of conversations is going to be part of
26:47
kind of your day-to-day conversations
26:50
. I don't think you necessarily
26:52
have to plan
26:55
a special meeting around this . It can
26:57
be just in what you do day-to-day . And
27:00
I do think one of the competencies of
27:02
leaders , of managers going
27:04
forward , is going to be able to
27:06
support and build the emotional
27:08
resilience of themselves and their teams
27:11
, because they're going to need
27:13
it to be productive
27:15
. Have healthy , resilient teams and
27:18
teams that feel comfortable , or individuals
27:20
that feel comfortable to kind of hold their hand
27:22
up and say I'm really struggling
27:24
today or I'm struggling this week , and
27:27
to have those kind of very open
27:30
and transparent conversations . And
27:32
we can only start to have those open
27:34
and transparent conversations if
27:37
we have leaders who are going to
27:39
acknowledge that and
27:42
open up those kinds of conversations . And some
27:44
people won't want to talk about it , and that's
27:46
fine . And I'm not saying that
27:48
you have to force it
27:50
, absolutely not . But
27:52
I do think it's giving people
27:54
opportunity . I like that saying that you
27:57
can lead a horse to water , but
27:59
you can't make them drink , but you can make
28:01
them thirsty and that's
28:03
our job . Our job as leaders , as
28:05
managers , is to make people
28:07
thirsty . So if
28:09
they decide to take you up on it
28:12
, that's great . If they don't , they know
28:15
that that boundary is there . So
28:17
it's all about how we position
28:19
this and how we integrate
28:21
and embed it as part of our everyday conversations
28:24
.
28:25
So yeah , so what you're saying , it's an ongoing thing that
28:28
doesn't necessarily have to be a
28:30
structured thing . It's something that a manager should
28:32
have as part of their skillset , or at least develop
28:34
as part of their skillset , so that they can build
28:37
that resilience their own
28:40
personal resilience as well as their own team's resilience
28:44
as well . And where
28:46
that resilience is concerned , I mean , what's
28:48
I'm trying to think of the sorts of things that I do to build my own
28:51
resilience . I don't know if I do
28:53
those things consciously or not , but
28:55
are there any sort of specific
28:58
things at all , or am I overthinking this
29:00
now ?
29:01
To build your own resilience .
29:02
Yeah , or my team for that matter .
29:06
Yeah , I think that mental
29:09
fitness , if you like , is
29:12
centered around kind of probably
29:15
five key things , like your stress
29:17
level and being aware of kind of where
29:19
that is You're nutrition
29:23
. Are you eating the right food ? Because
29:25
our food impacts our moods , that's
29:27
the reality of
29:29
it . Are we sleeping enough ? Because sleep
29:32
has
29:34
a huge impact on our resilience
29:36
? And then what I would
29:38
call within the nutrition
29:41
is fitness as well exercise and movement
29:43
. I'm not talking about going to join
29:46
a crossfit gym and be like hardcore
29:49
. Even just getting out for a walk outside
29:51
in the fresh air , that impacts our sleep
29:53
, that impacts our fitness
29:55
. You know , are we moving enough ? Because I think
29:57
that's another thing about remote working . I
29:59
mean , sometimes I'll look at my step
30:02
count and I'd be like , oh my God , I've been like literally
30:04
sitting at my desk all day . I haven't moved
30:06
, and you know proactively going
30:08
out for a walk or even going
30:10
out in the garden . I mean we
30:12
were having a conversation earlier about having a stand
30:15
up desk and you know , standing
30:17
for some of the day or walking around
30:19
a room when we're talking , that we don't have
30:21
to be sat down at a
30:23
desk . And the last thing I would
30:25
say on mental fitness is around community
30:28
and connection and really building . You
30:30
know deep connections with
30:33
other people , so building
30:35
those relationships .
30:36
No , that's brilliant and I think it's
30:39
important , isn't it
30:41
? Because mental fitness
30:43
, I suppose , as you put , it , is not just about , like
30:46
you said , just what's in your mind , but it's about getting
30:48
all those physical , get your body physiologically
30:51
right as well , isn't it ? As well as the , you
30:53
know , the other things that we mentioned before , all that you mentioned
30:55
before , and this thing you mentioned
30:58
as well , about
31:00
again a technique
31:02
that manages you , is it around reflective
31:05
listening ? You said something .
31:07
Yeah , I think one of the
31:09
things that I wanted to talk
31:11
to your
31:13
listeners today about was around
31:15
motivational interviewing . So
31:18
in our we
31:20
run a half day workshop on this
31:22
and it's condensed down
31:24
into some of the things that I've been talking to
31:26
you about today are part of our mental health awareness
31:29
training , which I believe
31:31
that you will post at the end of the
31:33
show . So , yes , access to that
31:35
if they're more interested in these things
31:38
. And we run like a monthly coaching
31:41
group , so people that want to
31:43
learn more about these different mental fitness
31:45
areas you know we teach
31:47
each month on a
31:50
specific topic and not so
31:52
people can , you know , make these huge lifestyle
31:55
changes . Like I said , it's not about going to join
31:58
the CrossFit gym and be training like five
32:00
times a week and , you know , like
32:02
making sure you've got all your
32:04
meals prepped and having five meals a day .
32:06
We're not you know that's like .
32:07
You know there's nothing wrong with that , but that's for
32:09
a certain group of people . What
32:12
we teach and what we think about is how you
32:14
can make this part of what you do
32:16
and embed it into your kind of everyday
32:19
lifestyle exactly
32:21
. So these advanced technique
32:23
listening techniques and motivational interviewing
32:26
again , it's about
32:28
having an awareness
32:30
of this technique and embedding
32:32
it into your routine
32:35
. And I think the point of these
32:38
advanced listening techniques is around
32:40
having a collaborative conversation actually
32:42
and strengthening people's intrinsic
32:45
motivation and commitment . So
32:47
what motivates you
32:49
inside and really as a leader , as a
32:52
manager , as an individual , if you can
32:54
tap into you know what
32:56
motivates you intrinsically
32:59
inside , you know it's much
33:01
easier to have better
33:03
conversations with people and
33:06
much more smoother
33:09
collaborations in terms of getting
33:11
things done and getting the best
33:13
out of people . And
33:16
the spirit of motivational interviewing is
33:18
really about , you know , really like
33:20
the idea that you're not the expert
33:22
and that actually is a collaboration
33:24
. So you know it's trying to get
33:26
a mutual understanding
33:29
and just understanding that person
33:31
from their narrative and what they need
33:33
, as opposed to your own kind
33:35
of agenda . Because I think as managers
33:37
I mean I've managed large
33:40
teams before and much
33:42
smaller teams and I've managed teams from
33:45
a as a line
33:47
manager , but also in a way where you
33:49
have to influence people that you don't necessarily
33:52
have their , you're not their direct
33:54
line manager and it's so important
33:57
to understand you know what's important
33:59
to them , because actually it helps you to frame
34:01
. You know what your , what
34:04
it is that you're get wanting them
34:06
or asking them to do , if you can
34:08
frame it from their narrative and
34:10
not your own narrative . And
34:12
so there's something about drawing out
34:15
from that person , as opposed to imposing
34:17
your views on
34:20
them , and really understanding you
34:22
know what , what , what
34:24
, what , what is it ? What is the change
34:26
that's needed to happen here ? What you
34:28
know , what is it that you are trying to achieve
34:31
through this conversation
34:33
with that person , and really
34:35
like getting them to think
34:38
about it from an autonomous perspective and
34:40
not your authority . So
34:42
I think you know , if you are
34:45
remote working and
34:47
you are influencing
34:50
and working with , especially if you're
34:52
working with more senior teams who
34:55
you know have a lot more autonomy
34:57
, this is a really helpful technique
35:00
to start to have some of those change or
35:02
even complex conversations that
35:04
often we like to skirt around
35:06
or not quite address , and I think
35:09
mental health is one of those , because people
35:11
always are worried about saying
35:13
the wrong thing and
35:15
that they're going to , you know , put their foot in it
35:17
and offend your upset people
35:19
. So I think it's quite a delicate
35:21
conversation , but I'm just going
35:23
to give you four basic skills
35:26
that you can use and that is called OARS
35:29
, o-a-r-s , and
35:32
that really OARS consists of
35:34
open-ended questions , affirmations
35:38
so appreciating people
35:41
and coming
35:43
from an encouraging perspective
35:45
. Reflective listening so being
35:47
able to paraphrase and rephrase
35:49
what people have said
35:51
. And then summarizing , just to make sure
35:54
that you understand what
35:56
people are saying . And if you can fit
35:58
O's into conversations
36:01
, you will find you have much
36:03
more productive and better
36:05
conversations when it comes
36:07
to any kind of conversation , not just mental
36:09
health , but any kind of conversation
36:12
, because it helps people to feel heard
36:14
and that you're actually really listening
36:16
to them , and it's one of the ways that
36:18
you can have a very empathetic and
36:21
connected conversation
36:23
.
36:24
Could you get ? I mean , I don't know if it's possible in
36:26
this setting . Could you perhaps just like give
36:29
a little example , maybe , of how
36:31
a conversation might go ? I don't
36:33
know . Is it possible to do that now ? I don't know .
36:36
So between me and you , yeah , why
36:38
not yeah ? Okay , so
36:40
tell me
36:42
okay . So what's
36:45
the scenario then ? Maybe talk to me about
36:47
something that's you're
36:50
struggling with at the moment a challenge .
36:52
So , yeah , my kids , I'm
36:55
working from home and I'm
36:57
also my kids' teacher , so I'm trying to balance
36:59
my work with my
37:02
home schooling basically
37:04
.
37:04
Okay , so how are you managing that now then
37:06
?
37:08
It did start off a little bit tricky , because
37:10
I wasn't really sure
37:12
if I was doing the right thing where my teaching
37:15
was concerned , and then it kind
37:17
of sort of filtered into my work , so
37:19
I was losing time with my
37:21
daily work .
37:23
So how would you like that to be different
37:25
? What's the balance
37:28
that you're seeking ?
37:30
Well , apart from going back to school , I suppose
37:32
I want to be
37:34
able to , I suppose , understand
37:36
that my kids are getting everything that they need
37:39
out of the day , but at the same time being
37:41
as productive as I possibly can under the
37:43
circumstances .
37:45
I mean what's productive for
37:48
you . What would that look like ?
37:50
I suppose what I normally
37:52
do is just have like a checklist of things that I
37:54
need to get done in the day , and I suppose
37:56
a couple of weeks ago I wasn't really getting those things
37:58
done , so I suppose now it
38:00
is improving . So productivity
38:02
for me is like crossing those things off the list and
38:05
getting them done .
38:06
So it sounds like you're doing a good job then
38:08
, like you are getting some things
38:11
done , but there's room for improvement .
38:13
Yeah , that's how
38:16
I'd sum it up as well . I'm much better
38:18
now when it comes to condensing
38:20
their learning into , say , like three
38:23
hours , where it used to be six hours , or
38:25
like four to six hours . I'm condensing it down
38:28
now , so I'm now sort of striking
38:30
a nice balance between the work
38:32
and the actual school
38:34
work for them . So it is getting better , yeah .
38:37
And are they enjoying it more ? Do they feel
38:39
more ?
38:41
Yeah , enjoying it . In inverted commas yes
38:43
, they're enjoying it . They're getting it done . Yeah
38:45
, it's much better now . It's less
38:48
stressful , because it used to be quite stressful
38:50
and then that stress would filter out into
38:52
them and then they wouldn't want to do the work . So
38:54
it's now becoming a bit more sort of
38:56
cooperative , should we say
38:58
. And they're enjoying it's a bit more trying
39:01
to inject a bit of fun into it too .
39:04
So it sounds like it sounds like you are
39:06
actually managing this much
39:09
better and that you do have strategies
39:11
in place Perhaps it's worth thinking
39:13
about . Maybe they're not perfect
39:15
and that they're perhaps got
39:18
room to . You've got room
39:21
to improve and grow , but
39:23
you sound like you're trying new things
39:26
and seeing how that works
39:28
.
39:28
Yeah , and I am trying new
39:30
things . I'm always , I suppose I suppose
39:33
you have to , especially I've got a six year old , so
39:35
if I suppose if I was doing the same
39:37
thing every day , she'd really quickly
39:39
get quite bored . So yeah
39:42
, I'll keep trying new things , just to see what works
39:44
, I guess . And then , like I said
39:46
, the work is improving , so it's
39:48
becoming less of a worry now .
39:53
I think it's when we try new things
39:55
that we have to often
39:57
cut ourselves a bit of slack in terms
40:00
of that process of
40:02
transitioning into the new
40:04
way of doing
40:06
things , but I think that
40:09
you have a framework
40:12
in place that's
40:14
serving you well . It's not a perfect one
40:17
. It seems that you are
40:19
much more productive , and your children
40:21
are getting homeschooled
40:23
. I guess I wonder what your idea of
40:25
productive is
40:27
, though , for them , because I think that some
40:30
parents perhaps
40:32
are considering that they need to kind of give
40:34
them the level of teaching that they
40:37
had when they were at school , and actually
40:39
maybe the standard is being good enough
40:41
. I don't know .
40:44
Yeah , and I've come to realize that I suppose
40:46
at the beginning again on reflection
40:49
I used to want to try
40:52
as hard as possible to follow the same
40:54
sort of routine that they
40:56
would at school , but I've come to
40:58
learn that , like you said , it's
41:01
about them , I suppose
41:03
, enjoying it . So it is getting to that point
41:05
now where they're starting to enjoy it a bit more
41:07
and it's not as intense as it was
41:09
before , and I
41:11
think
41:14
the outcomes
41:16
for them really is just that enjoyment
41:18
, I guess . So , yeah , it is getting better .
41:21
Have we demonstrated ?
41:23
Yeah , I think that's pretty good . It
41:25
is because I think that anybody
41:31
who's listening to this I hope will any
41:34
manager listening to this will be able to hear
41:36
how you are just sort of giving
41:39
me the platform to say
41:41
what I've been doing , how I've been
41:43
doing it and , at the same time , suggesting
41:46
things , rather than trying to impose things on me . I
41:50
think that was pretty useful
41:52
for me , let alone , hopefully , anybody out
41:54
there listening . So , thank you .
41:56
I think I started using some of the more
41:58
advanced techniques in
42:01
that , in terms of I
42:05
was consciously developing the discrepancy
42:07
, which is a technique of
42:10
motivational interviewing , because
42:12
I think where you started was
42:14
that you were basically failing
42:16
as a parent from
42:18
a productivity perspective . Actually
42:21
, you then went on to
42:23
say well , actually I've been trying different things and
42:26
it's been getting better over the weeks
42:28
and it's not perfect , but
42:31
it is improving . And I think sometimes
42:33
when we're going on a longer change journey
42:36
, we're so focused
42:38
on the end result that we don't see
42:40
all the incremental progress that we make
42:42
. And sometimes it's really
42:45
good to kind of sound that out and
42:47
to be able to express empathy to
42:49
someone and really kind of go actually you are
42:51
doing really well , you have implemented a
42:53
lot of things . Where is
42:55
it that you're expecting to be ? Because
42:57
I think sometimes people's expectations and
43:00
where they actually are is very
43:02
different , and so it's
43:05
been able to celebrate that
43:07
person's small incremental
43:10
steps and encourage
43:12
them to carry on and
43:14
see that actually
43:16
it's not as terrible as they
43:18
think in their mind
43:21
.
43:22
So true because even a couple of weeks ago
43:24
, what I'd say is what I was
43:26
thinking about was , rather
43:28
than incremental steps , I was thinking about how are they going
43:30
to be when they go back to school because of all this
43:33
teaching I've been doing with them , not
43:35
how I've been doing step by step
43:37
, but it was like so yeah , that is so true
43:39
and good
43:41
, it's great , it's great . So , if anybody's listening
43:43
to this , I think well , I'm
43:46
sure people are listening to this then it's
43:48
about the little steps
43:50
in between that lead you to what
43:53
the end result is , rather than just sort
43:55
of putting all that pressure on yourself just to
43:58
get that end result , rather than just sort of focusing
44:00
on the steps in between . So no
44:03
, martika , thank you .
44:04
Done is better than perfect . I think that
44:06
we often strive for
44:08
the finished product or the perfection
44:11
, and actually
44:13
it's a process , isn't it ? And we
44:15
have to be okay with being good enough , and
44:17
sometimes being good enough is the best
44:19
. So , yeah
44:22
, well done for being , for
44:26
having a full time job and teaching
44:28
.
44:28
Oh my gosh , it hasn't been easy
44:30
.
44:30
Everyone's going to have a new appreciation of teachers
44:33
.
44:33
I think , Tell me about it , Tell me about it . So
44:35
I mean just to end up , what's
44:39
things looking like on the horizon
44:41
for benevolent health ? What are your plans
44:43
for the foreseeable
44:45
future ?
44:46
Mental health awareness weeks coming up
44:48
this month , 18th to the 24th
44:50
of May . We've got a mental fitness summit
44:53
. So we
44:55
have done a
44:57
load of . We've
45:00
had a load of conversations with different
45:02
people in different industries
45:04
around but , you know
45:06
, really building resilience . So we've been
45:08
looking at . Homeschooling was a big topic . We've
45:11
got some excellent resources in there and we
45:13
did some stuff with you on remote working
45:15
. We've got a load
45:17
of mental fitness talks in
45:20
there . It's totally free to
45:23
register and to look at the content
45:25
If you want to keep the content as charged for
45:27
an access pass , which I mean it has a stress
45:30
program in there . So , and
45:32
that will go out on Mental
45:34
Health Awareness Week and I can say under the links
45:36
if people want to register before
45:38
then , and so we
45:41
are also . We've also
45:43
got the coaching program for people
45:45
that want to learn more
45:47
around mental
45:50
health awareness and building up their awareness
45:52
in the workplace , or that they want
45:54
to do something in their community in terms
45:56
of you know , if you're
45:58
into , if you've got expertise
46:01
in sleep or stress
46:04
or holistic , like
46:06
a yoga teacher , mindfulness
46:08
, or we're looking to
46:10
work with other
46:12
experts who
46:15
are interested in improving
46:17
their knowledge around mental
46:19
health . So we've been launching a peer mentoring
46:22
platform in June and
46:25
we always have our podcast , better
46:27
Mental Health , each month . We
46:29
usually focus on a topic
46:31
like this month we've been looking at sleep
46:33
Because I think that's been a big issue
46:36
for people through the pandemic , and
46:38
so we're always interested
46:40
in having those mental health conversations
46:43
. We just talk to everyday people and
46:47
really understand better
46:49
around mental health
46:51
. So that's the things that we've got coming up over
46:54
the next three few months . But if you I'll
46:58
send the slides that I've talked
47:00
from around the conversation
47:03
today and you register for
47:07
a free training , I
47:09
can add you
47:11
to our newsletter and then you'll get all
47:13
of the updates around stuff
47:16
that's going on month to
47:18
month within Benevolent Health .
47:20
So you're not busy , then Martika Not
47:22
busy , not ?
47:23
busy .
47:24
Not busy in the slightest .
47:26
I think mental health is really
47:29
needed at the moment . I mean , certainly
47:31
a lot of the reading that I've been doing around
47:33
this is that they're predicting kind of post-lockdown
47:37
sort of 69 months time
47:39
there'll be a
47:41
kind of a rocket in
47:44
mental health issues . So I think it's really
47:46
important to have good content , good support
47:48
, early . I think I
47:50
totally believe in prevention
47:52
. I've done this for years and
47:55
I mean I talked to you earlier about
47:57
suicide , which is obviously the really extreme
47:59
end of this , but where
48:02
we invest in good prevention programs
48:04
, the suicide rate is a lot lower . So
48:07
we know this stuff works . We
48:09
know if people have the skills
48:12
and the know-how before something happens
48:14
, that they actually navigate it much better
48:16
and much quicker . And
48:19
organisations are really missing a trick
48:21
If they've got people
48:24
off work sick long term
48:27
. If you can build
48:29
their emotional resilience , they will come back
48:31
to work much quicker and healthier . So
48:34
this stuff works . So
48:37
I think it's really important to
48:40
raise the awareness of it .
48:42
And that is certainly why I wanted to have you
48:44
on here today . I'm just looking for a benevolent
48:46
health website as well , so I'm going to put that in the show
48:48
notes too . But I wanted to
48:50
thank you , martika , for speaking
48:53
with us today , and we'll put a link , as I said
48:55
, in terms of the programs . We'll also
48:57
put a link to your website
49:00
as well in terms of mental health week , and
49:03
we'll be keeping an eye on what you're doing , absolutely
49:06
, I mean if anyone .
49:07
If this has touched anyone personally
49:09
and anybody struggling individually
49:12
and they've not been able to speak to
49:14
anyone , I'm really happy
49:17
to do a free consultation
49:19
and I will
49:21
give you a link to
49:24
my diary
49:26
for free consultations like 15
49:28
minutes just to talk about any
49:30
individual issues . If something's popped
49:33
up that we've talked about that really resonates
49:35
and impacts people , so I'm
49:38
more than happy to do that . Thank
49:40
you so much for having me on . I'm really feel
49:42
privileged to talk to your audience and I hope
49:45
that you've enjoyed it . I hope that this is
49:47
stuff that you're able to implement absolutely
49:50
and it makes a difference to you
49:52
and your teams . Most importantly .
49:54
I think that's what it's all about . So
49:57
it's benevolent health , benevolent health , dot
49:59
co dot , uk , martika sway
50:01
be thanks . So much , martika , thank
50:04
you , bye , bye .
50:05
Bye , bye .
Podchaser is the ultimate destination for podcast data, search, and discovery. Learn More