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Ep. - 1020 - THE TRIAL OF REBECCA GROSSMAN

Ep. - 1020 - THE TRIAL OF REBECCA GROSSMAN

Released Tuesday, 25th June 2024
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Ep. - 1020 - THE TRIAL OF REBECCA GROSSMAN

Ep. - 1020 - THE TRIAL OF REBECCA GROSSMAN

Ep. - 1020 - THE TRIAL OF REBECCA GROSSMAN

Ep. - 1020 - THE TRIAL OF REBECCA GROSSMAN

Tuesday, 25th June 2024
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2:00

grew cold. Over the course

2:02

of eight years, Hamburg interviewed his family

2:04

members and many others

2:07

to learn more about his mother's life

2:09

and gather evidence in hopes of solving

2:11

her murder. Along the way, he uncovers

2:14

a web of familial and local secrets,

2:16

connections to shadowy figures, and

2:18

years-old resentments in his deceptively

2:21

serene hometown. I discussed

2:23

this series in episode 578, but

2:25

I feel like I want to go back and

2:27

revisit this story. So I'm having

2:29

you guys go back and rewatch it or

2:31

watch it for the first time because we're

2:33

going to talk about it in an upcoming

2:35

episode. Today's episode is

2:38

about a case that received national attention

2:40

in 2020. Rebecca Grossman,

2:42

a California socialite and philanthropist, was

2:44

sentenced last week in California to

2:47

15 years to

2:49

life in prison for the deaths of

2:51

two young brothers in a Los Angeles

2:53

crosswalk in 2020. This story

2:55

has been the subject of an episode of

2:57

48 hours. A year

2:59

or so after this crash, I received

3:01

an email asking if I would be

3:04

interested in interviewing Rebecca and

3:06

that the media had distorted the real story

3:08

and I declined that interview. Grossman,

3:11

the wife of renowned plastic surgeon

3:13

Peter Grossman, was found guilty earlier

3:15

this year of second-degree murder in

3:17

the death of 11-year-old Mark

3:20

Iskander and his eight-year-old brother

3:22

Jacob. She must also pay more than $47,000

3:26

in restitution. On

3:28

September 29, 2020,

3:31

Mark and Jacob were crossing the street in

3:33

a marked crosswalk with their parents and siblings

3:36

at the intersection of Trion Faux Canyon Road

3:38

and Saddle Mountain Drive at around

3:40

7.10 p.m. The

3:42

vehicle sped through an intersection and

3:45

hit the boys right in front of their

3:47

parents according to the LA County Sheriff's Department.

3:50

Mother Nancy was able to get her two

3:52

youngest children, including a daughter in a stroller,

3:55

out of harm's way, but she couldn't reach

3:57

the older boys in time according to a

3:59

friend of the victim's family. Mark

4:02

was pronounced dead at the scene. His younger

4:04

brother Jacob was taken to the hospital and

4:07

died a few hours later. Mark's

4:09

body was found 254 feet away from the crosswalk while

4:13

Jacob was found about 50 feet away from

4:16

the crosswalk according to the Los Angeles Times.

4:19

The Mercedes-Benz SUV involved in the

4:21

crash sustained significant damage

4:23

to its front end. Though

4:26

the airbag deployed instantly, Rebecca Grossman did

4:28

not stop her vehicle until she was

4:30

about a quarter of a mile down

4:33

the road when the car's

4:35

safety features automatically disabled it. Grossman,

4:37

who was separated from her husband at the

4:40

time, had been having margaritas with

4:42

her then boyfriend Scott Erickson, a

4:44

former LA Dodgers pitcher. During

4:47

the trial, prosecutors argued that Grossman

4:49

was under the influence of alcohol

4:51

and Valium and was

4:53

racing with Erickson, the two SUVs recklessly

4:56

weaving in and out of lanes, recklessly

4:58

in an area with

5:00

pedestrians. During the

5:02

trial, the defense blamed Erickson, claiming it

5:04

was his car that struck the boys

5:06

as the couple left a local restaurant

5:09

in separate cars. Grossman

5:11

and her husband had been dating other people

5:13

after deciding to separate at the time. Prosecutors

5:16

alleged that after enjoying cocktails, Erickson

5:18

and Grossman were racing each other

5:20

on the street. Erickson

5:22

was driving a black Mercedes SUV just

5:24

ahead of Grossman's vehicle at the time

5:27

of the crash. A

5:29

collision reconstruction engineer testified in court

5:31

that the case had room for

5:33

ambiguity as he couldn't be certain

5:35

that just one vehicle had hit

5:37

the children rather than two,

5:39

according to the Orange County Register. In

5:42

court, Grossman's daughter Alexis, age 19,

5:45

testified that she had spotted Erickson hiding

5:47

behind a tree near the scene of

5:49

the accident. He was allegedly poking

5:51

his head out and looking to see what was

5:54

going on. Afterwards, she

5:56

claimed Erickson went to her home while

5:58

angrily shouting, Why did

6:00

your mom stop? Why did your mom stop? Why

6:02

didn't she just drive home? The

6:05

teen said she could smell alcohol on Erickson

6:07

and he was freaking out While

6:09

warning her not to tell anyone she had seen

6:11

him near the accident site She

6:13

told jurors that Erickson threatened if you

6:16

do I'll ruin you and your family

6:19

However, LA County Sheriff's deputy

6:21

Rafael Mejia Testified he

6:23

didn't see any indication that more than one

6:25

vehicle could be involved when he responded to

6:28

the scene in 2020 And

6:30

jurors ultimately agreed Mejia said

6:33

he smelled alcohol Coming from

6:35

Grossman and contacted a unit to perform a

6:38

DUI investigation He

6:40

found Grossman about three-tenths of a mile

6:42

away standing outside of her SUV She

6:45

told me that her vehicle was disabled by Mercedes

6:47

Benz He told jurors Grossman

6:49

mentioned she had hit something but she didn't know

6:51

what she struck Under questioning

6:53

Mejia said he didn't find any debris

6:56

consistent with a black SUV or any

6:58

kind of black vehicle We

7:00

didn't see any indicators that there was another vehicle.

7:02

He said Indicating that the

7:05

debris at the scene indicated a white

7:07

vehicle had been involved Nancy

7:10

Iskinder testified that she had heard

7:12

revving engines and looked up

7:14

to see a black SUV speeding toward

7:16

the intersection She dove out

7:18

of the way while purling her younger children

7:20

to safety But she said that

7:23

a white Mercedes SUV was following closely behind

7:25

the black car when it sped

7:27

through the crosswalk She had heard an impact Following

7:30

a six-week trial the jury deliberated

7:32

for nearly two days before handing

7:34

down a unanimous verdict Advanized

7:37

Superior Court and crying could be heard

7:39

from both sides of the courtroom when

7:42

the verdict was read Prosecutors

7:44

had sought a 34 year to

7:46

life sentence But deputy district attorney Ryan

7:49

Gould told the judge that the defendant

7:51

deserves every day of the maximum sentence

7:54

The defense countered by asking the judge

7:56

to impose a probationary sentence or

7:59

the lower state prison term of just over 12

8:01

years on the less serious

8:03

vehicular manslaughter charges on which she

8:05

was also convicted in connection with the boy's

8:07

death. The judge opted

8:09

to sentence her to 15 years

8:12

to life on the murder counts, with

8:14

the 15 years to life sentence on

8:16

the other murder charge to be served at

8:18

the same time. Jurors

8:21

found Grossman guilty of two

8:23

counts each of second-degree murder

8:25

and vehicular manslaughter with gross

8:27

negligence and one count

8:29

of hit-and-run driving. In

8:31

an emotion-filled sentencing hearing, she said that she

8:33

wanted the boy's family to know how sorry

8:36

I am and insisted that she never

8:38

saw the boys in the street on the night of the

8:40

crash. What I found

8:42

notable was the way she purposely pared down her

8:44

looks to make herself seem demure, an act

8:47

that obviously did not sway the judge. Mark

8:51

Iskender, age 11, was gifted in

8:53

math and science. If you had the

8:55

great joy of enjoying a conversation with

8:58

Mark according to his parents, there

9:00

was likely mention of

9:02

reptiles or ice hockey, two passions

9:04

he championed proudly. Mark

9:06

was faithful and never forgot to remember

9:08

his friends and families in his prayers.

9:11

Jacob, age 8, never shied

9:14

away from adventure and excitement. Jacob

9:16

loved running track because it allowed him

9:18

to showcase his speed, his strength, and

9:20

his sportsmanship. Jacob was

9:22

a great friend to all who were blessed enough to call

9:25

him a pal. The

9:27

Mark and Jacob Iskender Foundation provides

9:29

support to underserved children, allowing

9:32

them to reach their full potential

9:34

academically, socially, and psychologically

9:36

by offering them with love, support,

9:38

and the tools they need to

9:41

succeed. In this

9:43

episode, I interviewed attorney Andrea Keith about

9:45

this case and the trial. Thanks

9:48

for watching. in

10:00

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ADT, brilliantly safe. Andrea

11:38

Keap is a criminal defense attorney in

11:40

California. In the same community this case

11:42

has occurred, she specializes in domestic violence

11:44

and sex offenses and I'm

11:46

so glad she's with me today. Welcome to the show.

11:49

Thank you so much for having me. This

11:52

case is really interesting and I know that I've

11:54

been following it for years. Several

11:56

news organizations have covered it and

11:58

essentially this is about reading. Rebecca

12:01

Grossman, this very wealthy California, they

12:03

call her a socialite and a philanthropist,

12:05

sentenced last week to 15 years to

12:07

life in prison for the deaths

12:09

of two young brothers in a crosswalk in

12:12

2020. And she has

12:14

to pay more than $47,000 in restitution. This

12:18

case is really unique. Walk us

12:20

through why this case stands out.

12:24

Sure. I would say that it

12:26

stands out from the beginning based on the

12:28

facts and then the legal posture the way

12:31

that the Los Angeles attorney's office charged the

12:33

case from the beginning. So

12:36

the facts of the case are very

12:38

unique. It occurred in Westlake. It

12:40

occurred in an area that borders Los

12:42

Angeles County. And so depending on what

12:45

part that you live in or

12:47

what part the crime occurred, you could be either

12:49

in Los Angeles and Ventura County. And I'm gonna

12:51

talk about that a little bit later. So

12:54

it was unique in that sense. It was

12:56

unique that she's a woman obviously that's done

12:58

a ton of good within the community. She

13:01

is married to a man

13:04

and they both started and worked

13:06

for the Grossman Burn Center. Her husband

13:08

talked throughout the sentencing about a young

13:10

10 year old girl that

13:13

had been burned very badly. And Rebecca had sort of

13:15

taken her under her wing. She was

13:17

known in the community for donating not

13:19

only her time, but a lot

13:21

of her money to do good within the community. She

13:24

obviously has no record. She had two

13:27

children herself. And

13:29

so I would say from the facts, again,

13:31

starting from the beginning, the fact that she

13:34

not only got behind the vehicle

13:36

while intoxicated and there was evidence

13:38

produced at the trial that she

13:40

had volume in her system as

13:42

well, proceeded to speed

13:44

at such a reckless disregard in

13:47

a residential community at almost

13:49

81 miles per hour, and

13:52

then hit not one child, but two, and

13:54

then proceeded not to stop. Those are just

13:56

not facts that you see in our

13:58

community, even in Los Angeles. Los Angeles County, again,

14:01

because of her background and because of the

14:03

type of work that she did. Then

14:05

the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office

14:07

decided to charge murder. And

14:10

so that in and of

14:12

itself caused a lot of

14:14

discussion within the community.

14:17

California has a very unique law

14:19

regarding DUI cases where if somebody

14:21

has the first conviction for a

14:23

DUI, which is

14:25

typically obviously a misdemeanor, they're

14:27

advised that driving while under the

14:29

influence can result in death. And

14:32

so it's a case called Watson where

14:34

then somebody can be convicted of murder.

14:37

And so for a long time, the legislator

14:39

in the court system has been trying to

14:41

get people for murder on DUI

14:43

cases, but hasn't been able to do

14:46

it on a first case

14:48

like this. If

14:50

it's the edge of Los Angeles

14:52

County, are their lives

14:54

intersecting? So unfortunately,

14:57

both families attended

14:59

the same private school. It is

15:01

a very well-known private school. The

15:04

private school itself actually borders Ventura

15:06

and Los Angeles County, believe it

15:08

or not. The borderline between

15:10

the two counties divides between the middle

15:12

school and the high school, but

15:15

they are technically, I believe registered in

15:17

Ventura County, but I could be wrong.

15:20

And so both families'

15:22

children attend the same school.

15:25

When this first happened, the school

15:27

actually did an excellent job of

15:30

canceling class because they did

15:32

not want sort of the rumors of

15:34

the drama to occur

15:36

on the first day. They held

15:38

a chapel for the victim's family

15:40

on the first day. And as

15:42

school reconvened, they actually held a

15:45

chapel and a prayer for both

15:47

families, because obviously Rebecca Grossman's children

15:49

have been greatly affected by this

15:51

as well. Absolutely. So

15:54

what were the charges that were brought?

15:58

So interestingly, again, And

16:00

everybody was surprised within the community. I

16:02

think some people felt like there was

16:04

a lot of pressure on the district

16:06

attorney's office, again, to bring murder

16:08

charges. And I can talk a little bit

16:10

more about that. But they did

16:12

end up bringing second degree murder charges

16:15

against Ms. Grossman. They brought what

16:17

we commonly call a hit and run

16:19

involving death that's basically involving fatality, because

16:22

there was evidence that she had left the

16:24

scene of the crime. And that the only

16:26

reason that she stopped is because her Mercedes

16:29

vehicle actually malfunctioned and was

16:31

not able to continue driving. And

16:33

then they also brought gross vehicular

16:36

manslaughter charges. What

16:39

were the uncoupled factors? So

16:42

one was, again, there was evidence

16:44

that she and her boyfriend and

16:46

another individual who was

16:49

actually a coach at the

16:51

school that both the kids had gone to, because

16:54

I think that the news has already

16:56

covered that Scott

16:58

Erickson was an ex-Dodger player. So

17:00

there were some baseball MLB people

17:02

that had been involved. They

17:05

had been golfing earlier, which is very typical

17:08

within this community. Again, it is a

17:10

very well off, very high

17:12

end economic community that this occurred

17:14

in Westlake. That they

17:16

had been sort of casually drinking throughout the day

17:18

playing golf, had had cocktails towards the end of

17:20

the night. And so there

17:22

was some evidence that this was a

17:25

DUI, that there was alcohol involved. There

17:27

was evidence that at the scene itself, she

17:30

had blown a .07. We

17:33

call that a preliminary alcohol screening test. It

17:35

is a basically small device. It is not

17:37

considered the chemical test in California, which again,

17:39

I can talk more later about if you'd

17:42

like. But it's a small

17:44

device that you blow into

17:47

and it essentially gives the officers a reading when

17:49

they're out on scene. So there was

17:51

some evidence that she had blown a .07 and

17:54

that later on when she did the blood draw,

17:56

which I believe was a force draw at the

17:58

hospital, results were a

18:00

0.08. There was also

18:02

evidence in her blood of Valium as well.

18:04

And then obviously the speeding that had gone

18:06

on, there was evidence that she was driving

18:09

up to 80 to 81 miles

18:11

per hour when the collision had occurred, that

18:14

she did not stop that she dragged one

18:16

of the boys under the vehicle for a

18:19

period of time, one of

18:21

them died at scene and the other one

18:23

died at the hospital. And so it

18:25

wasn't just that this was a woman that was

18:29

driving with a blood alcohol

18:31

content between the legal limit

18:33

in California 0.07 to 0.08. And it hit

18:37

a child and had stopped and

18:39

had taken responsibility. She had

18:42

never taken responsibility for the crime. She had said

18:44

in the beginning that she did not do it.

18:47

There were various defense attorneys that she went through.

18:49

And again, I'll talk about that. But

18:51

I think, I think a lot of that

18:54

played into the charging decisions that the district

18:56

attorney's office made. When you

18:59

go through so many different attorneys, what kind

19:01

of costs are we thinking of? What

19:04

kind of costs are associated with changing

19:06

your attorneys? So

19:09

every attorney obviously is going to charge differently. I

19:12

would assume that attorneys on a case like this

19:14

are probably charging 100,000 plus

19:17

on a case. Typically, criminal defense attorneys,

19:19

we bill in bulk a little bit different than

19:21

other attorneys do. And we're going to bill it

19:23

based on different stages of the proceeding. So pre

19:27

preliminary hearing, sometimes through preliminary hearing is

19:29

going to be a cost versus post

19:31

preliminary hearing. And then trial is obviously

19:33

going to be the most expensive. But

19:36

I'm sure she spent hundreds of thousands of

19:38

dollars on attorneys fees. Also during

19:40

the trial itself, there were various experts that

19:42

testified those all came out of her pocket

19:44

as well. So whatever the expert was

19:47

going to charge 10 to 20,000 to $30,000 for testimony

19:49

and preparation,

19:52

she paid all of those

19:54

costs as well. Transcribed by

19:56

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connected and moving together as one. What

21:27

were some of the culpability factors because

21:30

there was mention of an incident from 2013 when

21:33

she'd been ticketed for driving quite fast? I

21:36

know that there was some mention of that, that

21:40

she had had previous tickets before. I think there

21:42

was actually more than one. I

21:45

didn't follow specifically what that

21:47

exact evidence was, but

21:49

I know that there was mention that she had had prior

21:52

speeding tickets before. There was actually two. There

21:54

was one mentioned also where she was... sued

22:00

based on an accident that she had

22:02

been into. And so she did have,

22:04

because I know that that family had

22:07

come forward regarding their negotiations

22:09

with her during the lawsuit of the

22:11

traffic accident. So there

22:13

was a couple of prior cases,

22:15

again, nothing criminal, but

22:18

there were a couple of prior incidences where

22:20

she had had a speeding ticket. And then

22:22

again, she had had a traffic collision where

22:24

another family had sued her as well. So

22:27

in the end, she's sentenced to

22:30

that many years, but she's also

22:32

up for parole in seven years.

22:36

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is there not

22:38

an elderly parole factor in the state of

22:40

California for those over the age of 50?

22:45

So there is, I want to talk about the

22:47

sentence and then I'm going to get into parole

22:49

because the sentence has actually caused a lot of

22:51

controversy within the community as well. So

22:54

she was sentenced to concurrent time and

22:56

just for people to understand what that

22:58

means. There's two victims, obviously,

23:01

the two Iskander boys that were

23:03

killed in this case. She

23:05

was sentenced to 15 years to life

23:07

on each count, but it was to

23:09

run concurrently. Concurrent is the whole

23:11

factor in the state of California for those over

23:13

the age of 50. So

23:17

there is, I want to talk about the sentence

23:19

and then I'm going to get into parole because

23:21

the sentence has actually caused a lot of controversy

23:23

within the community as well. So she

23:26

was sentenced to concurrent time. And just

23:28

for people to understand what that means,

23:31

there's two victims. Obviously the two

23:33

Iskander boys that were killed in

23:35

this case, she was sentenced

23:37

to 15 years to life on each

23:39

count, but it was to run concurrently.

23:42

Concurrent essentially means that she's serving the

23:44

same amount of time. So instead of

23:46

serving one sentence for one victim, and

23:49

then once that is complete, then you

23:51

would serve your other sentence. That would

23:53

be consecutive time. And so

23:56

you wouldn't be eligible for parole until

23:58

you're serving your sentence on both. Judge

24:01

Brandolino chose to serve the sentences concurrently.

24:03

And so as you said, she got

24:05

15 years to life, which is a

24:08

concurrent sentence. And then she

24:10

is eligible for parole after a period

24:12

of time. California laws have

24:14

changed drastically, I would say

24:17

since COVID, and they're changing

24:19

more and more every year. And

24:21

so one of the things that the legislator

24:23

is starting to recognize is that we don't

24:25

want to keep people in custody forever. And

24:28

so they've come up with these

24:31

useful offender parole hearings, where if

24:33

somebody was, it started with 26,

24:36

it's now, and then went down to 25 and now 24. If

24:39

somebody's under the age of 24, then they

24:42

get a useful parole offender hearing where

24:44

they're able to be eligible for parole

24:46

sooner. Because again, we recognize

24:48

that young people sort of

24:50

commit crimes and then they grow up and they can

24:52

change. Same with the elderly,

24:54

as you've indicated. And so we don't

24:57

want to keep people within the prison

24:59

system forever, because

25:01

they are elderly, they do get sick.

25:03

It's very costly for the state to

25:05

keep people in for periods of time

25:07

when they do have medical issues and

25:09

so forth. And so she

25:12

will be eligible for parole, as you've

25:14

indicated at an earlier time, because she

25:16

does qualify as elderly. Now

25:19

I can tell you in the state of California,

25:21

it's very difficult to be granted parole on

25:25

violent felonies. Especially on

25:27

a case like this. And so

25:29

I would presume that the family is

25:31

going to continue to speak at the

25:33

parole hearings. I would assume that

25:36

she's gonna put a lot of work into the

25:38

parole hearings so that she does not ultimately die

25:40

in prison. But it is

25:42

very, very difficult because in the state of

25:44

California, no matter how well you're doing in

25:47

prison, they are always going to look

25:49

to the crime itself. And

25:51

so I've had parole cases before and I've

25:53

looked at the packets that are presented and

25:56

they still focus on

25:58

the crime itself and the remorse that you

26:01

did or did not take at

26:03

the time of sentencing. I know in

26:05

this particular case, the mother talked

26:07

about that she actually ran into Mrs.

26:09

Grossman in the hospital as

26:11

she was pulling life support from one

26:14

of her sons. And it was at

26:16

that time that Mrs. Grossman should have come up

26:18

to her and she should have apologized and she

26:20

should have taken responsibility for what

26:23

happened. And the mom talked at sentencing about

26:25

how she looked her straight in the face

26:27

and didn't say anything to her. So

26:29

I think there's been a lot of

26:32

anger within the community that she never

26:34

took responsibility after this happened

26:36

and she didn't really take responsibility, not

26:38

even when she was convicted, frankly, because

26:40

in custody she continued to violate the

26:43

court orders and do various things that

26:46

she was ordered to do and that she

26:48

didn't really take responsibility until the sentencing. And

26:51

so I know that there's been a lot of

26:53

anger within the community about the way she responded.

26:56

Are there any other unique factors to

26:58

this case? There's

27:01

a lot of unique factors about

27:03

this case. Ventura County is

27:05

a very, very small community. We have

27:08

one courthouse on Victoria Avenue.

27:10

I have borders Santa Barbara and Los

27:12

Angeles County, which are both considered very

27:15

liberal, I would say communities. There

27:17

are also larger communities. Santa Barbara spans

27:19

all the way to Lompoc and obviously

27:21

Los Angeles community goes through Palmdale, Long

27:24

Beach. There's a variety of courthouses in

27:26

both. And so the

27:28

Ventura community really felt like Los Angeles was not

27:30

doing their job, but they put a lot of

27:32

pressure on the fact that the case

27:35

went as long as it did, that

27:38

it went on for years, that there

27:40

were various continuances, that Mrs. Grossman stayed

27:42

out of custody during the entire pendency

27:44

of the court proceeding, that

27:47

she wasn't put in custody with no bail. And

27:49

so there was a lot of anger within the

27:51

Ventura community that this ended up

27:53

being tried in Los Angeles County, because

27:55

that's where the crime technically occurred, rather

27:57

than occurring in Ventura County. Do

28:00

you think that this case is precedent setting? Absolutely.

28:03

I mean I talked about that in

28:05

the beginning As

28:08

a criminal defense attorney not as a

28:10

mother but as a criminal defense attorney

28:12

I was shocked frankly with the murder

28:14

charges when they first came out I

28:17

was not as shocked by the verdict and we

28:19

can talk about that because I wholeheartedly disagreed with

28:22

the defense But I

28:24

was shocked with the charges in the

28:26

way that it was charged Again,

28:29

the gross vehicular manslaughter Um,

28:32

that does not surprise me the hit

28:34

and run involving death. That's and did

28:36

not surprise me It was this the

28:38

murder that surprised me especially considering the

28:40

watson laws Talk to

28:42

me a little bit about the sentencing. What

28:44

surprised you? It surprised

28:46

me that he ran it concurrently Great.

28:49

I think that that was a shock to everybody um

28:54

Judge brandolina was so Fair

28:57

and strict and

28:59

you could tell was not swayed by

29:01

the publicity Um in

29:03

any way shape or form and as as

29:05

a personal note, I work in the van

29:08

eis courthouse So I did have the opportunity

29:10

to actually stop in a couple of times

29:12

and see the testimony myself I

29:14

actually saw one of the defense experts, um

29:16

testifying the accident reconstructionist So i'm i'm well

29:18

aware obviously of the trial and the evidence

29:21

that was presented But I

29:23

think everybody was surprised that he That

29:26

he he sentenced her to concurrent sentences. I

29:29

think that came as a big shock to people Well,

29:32

i'm so grateful for your insight. Where can people

29:34

find you? Thanks. They can find

29:36

me on my website. It's uh, keith criminal

29:38

law.com I

29:40

can also be found on Tiktok

29:44

Instagram twitter and linkedin again all

29:46

under keith criminal law Thank

29:48

you so much Amazing

29:53

cake I

29:56

want to thank my great guest andrea keith and remind

29:58

you to click subscribe

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