0:00

You're. Listening to Radio to Be

0:02

A presents from Pr Axes Radio

0:05

Topeka. Before

0:08

we get started, there's another pack ft

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want to check out for clerics Seen

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on Radio has a new series that

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tells the story of the only successful

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coup to tie in Us history in

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Wilmington, North Carolina. November eighteen, Ninety Eight.

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It's a story with disturbing residents today

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in our time have orchestrated attacks against

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democracy and the threat of political violence.

0:28

Look for that goes of a cool

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season. Six have seen on Radio this

0:33

and now. Wherever you listen to podcasts.

0:37

Before. We start. A quick note

0:39

to say that this show is serialized, so

0:41

if you haven't listened to episode one yet,

0:43

Please. Do So Now. After.

0:47

Interviewing thirty strangers from the internet,

0:49

I had to make some tough

0:51

choices. Select. For subjects

0:54

to feature in this documentary

0:56

series, here's who I chose:

0:58

Ernesto, a Dominican American fashion

1:01

model and aspiring designer in

1:03

his twenties navigating new sobriety.

1:07

Me: confidence reinforcing our

1:09

fuel Obama so. Judy

1:11

a white woman in her seventies who

1:14

became homeless after her beloved husband's death

1:16

just a few months before Cove it

1:18

hit the more than happy to sign

1:21

this it just said com Every time

1:23

I sign a document I like a

1:25

copy Jess Hawaiian punk musician in their

1:27

twenties who found out there adopted and

1:30

have a biological brother who has long

1:32

wanted just back in his life there's

1:34

I saw a documentary on the thing

1:37

I I I would use and shit

1:39

I didn't know. This is like p.

1:42

And last but not least, Michael,

1:44

a middle aged black rider and

1:46

rapper who recently got out of

1:48

prison and is now trying to

1:50

become a professional public speaker. My

1:53

words: you're Commercials will be

1:55

like a masterpiece. I

2:00

call them all up to let them know they thing

2:02

cast. No

2:04

no yes we met at the

2:07

documentary edition or just saw them

2:09

have a you I. Wanted to

2:11

give you call because I'd love

2:13

for you to participate in the

2:15

documentary series if you're still interested.

2:17

I am. So eyes of

2:19

lives lost to wasn't for says

2:21

yes nerves be offered him he

2:24

does. Wonderful new gray My mother

2:26

users ah you made mine. I'm

2:30

just same and this is shocking.

2:34

Transform. It is. Here.

2:45

Is my first subject or ness still.

2:48

In his audition. My

2:50

name's in the school. I

2:53

was born and raised in the

2:55

Bronx some twenty years old. Or

2:59

construction to them a part time

3:01

model. Of course

3:03

Ernesto as a model he's got

3:05

to sign Cheekbones, thick eyebrows and

3:08

these dark still lies that long

3:10

losses. And he carries himself

3:12

with an aloofness you might expect. From

3:15

a notably beautiful twenty year old

3:17

home for. The wanna tell me about

3:19

how you found my and why you decided. To

3:21

respond as a resurgence had consensual

3:24

Craig's list sang. A

3:26

Song man. Zola

3:29

to read through. Her.

3:34

Seems a do it again my

3:36

foot in the door. Using spring

3:38

and summer vocals these has a

3:40

good recommended as the law. Even

3:42

when a model you know know

3:44

say a word it's on me.

3:47

Assure that isn't very expression and

3:49

season body language and. Said

3:52

a lot of psychology in. Syria.

3:55

And Iraq. And Syria says think.

3:59

He knows. Meaning my culpability

4:01

in gaining muscle suppose he

4:04

says, well, As.

4:07

You know, in this series I'm

4:09

trying to do documentary differently. I.

4:11

Wanna take on a collaborative approach

4:13

to storytelling in which my subjects

4:15

such. The Course. And then

4:17

I try to realize their vision. So

4:20

I've asked Ernesto to tell me what

4:22

he would like are documentary about him

4:24

to be about. And it

4:26

turns out that he has come up

4:28

with options to possible stories. Mongoose

4:31

was of course since we

4:34

can be put through. The

4:37

sir sounds like a profile of

4:39

ernesto experience in the fashion industry.

4:41

been as i spoke as know to talk.

4:45

To the Freudian own called

4:47

objects good have to. Have

4:50

been referred to as an option

4:53

but to me as part of

4:55

the game being a model and

4:57

puts his things as an extravagant

4:59

industry home. but it's not easy.

5:01

Him and. The second is about his

5:04

long struggle with drug addiction. Moses

5:06

And who says. He

5:09

was a reflection of the problems,

5:11

a symptom the house herself medically

5:13

you know how to answer some

5:16

of the boomers cancel was roses

5:18

opening of. Tells

5:20

me about the it's in Rehab programs

5:23

he's been enrolled in since he was

5:25

sixty. Four years since he started, the

5:27

program is finally about to complete it.

5:31

Is not a conventional we have is

5:33

as and therapeutic community. So

5:36

Ernesto is offering to narrative

5:38

there's either er nest, oh,

5:41

the young model navigating a

5:43

cutthroat fashion industry, or Ernesto

5:45

newly sober, restarting his life

5:48

after. Addictions Treatment. Normally

5:56

I have a detailed plan for any

5:59

story and. The Power that's part

6:01

of the savvy documentary and business

6:03

plan. Pitch something with a clear

6:05

focus, a narrative that you can

6:07

outlined before you even start collecting

6:10

tape. That way you

6:12

can make sure you don't waste your

6:14

time or your networks money. In

6:17

practice that means that my interviews

6:19

are usually pretty direct his documentary

6:21

and tend to steer conversations and

6:23

interviews. ask for more details where

6:25

they want them died, the subject

6:27

to where we think there will

6:30

be scenes in action and we

6:32

definitely made sure that any subject

6:34

we've picked can deliver the goods.

6:36

This feels like playing those awful

6:38

this out loud but I think

6:40

my reactions of as he was

6:43

sort of like this person seems

6:45

really nice but he has. Claimed

6:47

as a me this as

6:50

a very sudden they're it

6:52

sounding story me though. That's.

6:55

Radio Topi as executive producer Audrey Markiewicz.

6:57

After I played her and the rest

7:00

of the Radio Topi a team some

7:02

of the tape for my auditions. This

7:04

was before we settled on the for

7:06

subjects. It. May sound

7:09

harsh if you don't work in media. But.

7:11

Arteries just doing what every one in

7:13

our industry does. Deciding. On

7:16

which stories are worth telling. Or.

7:18

Not. Based. On what we

7:20

think the audience wants. And. Is

7:22

clingy as it may sound to

7:24

call someone's life story generic. Let's.

7:27

Be honest. You're. Listening to this

7:29

right now because you're hoping to hear

7:31

something that will entertain you and maybe

7:33

teach you something new. You.

7:35

Want something that feels face. And

7:38

I want to give you that. Plus. Radio

7:40

Topeka is a selective to teach

7:42

network, so they're literally banking on

7:44

me producing something that will turn

7:47

heads. And as

7:49

I interesting processes eating in a we're

7:51

going to make a documentary about you

7:54

and your life over the next over

7:56

minimum. But I don't know

7:58

exactly what about it yet. You

8:00

know, Okay,

8:02

so back to er nest as

8:04

two pitches: Modeling and addiction. Part.

8:08

Of my project is to challenge

8:10

myself not to have a destination

8:12

in mind. To. Let my subjects

8:14

lead the way. Despite.

8:16

That the dangers of whipping

8:18

up something generic. So.

8:20

When Ernesto invites me to follow him behind

8:23

the scenes at a high profile fashion show

8:25

he's walking, a couple weeks later, he jumped

8:27

at the other two. Are

8:31

you. Have

8:34

a seat over here. We

8:37

need a few blocks from the venue. Is

8:39

the rainy grey day and every

8:42

other person walking by seems like

8:44

they're either carrying a multi camera

8:46

or is over six feet tall.

8:48

We take shelter under an awning

8:50

in scope as the crowd. I'm

8:53

wondering how are you feeling that you normally do

8:55

before? So. Pretty

8:57

nervous when I know the

8:59

nervousness is nestled in isn't

9:02

part of life in Greece

9:04

has to be. was a

9:06

citizens a. Hamburger.

9:11

Know the socio nice This is a

9:13

familiar face before it happens in the

9:16

same as those of us. Are

9:19

Nest tells me he's really excited

9:21

about to sell to securely because

9:23

the designer is Dominican. American like

9:25

him is a meaningful shows

9:27

has just about the person

9:30

is of lifting entire community.

9:32

When Earnest so finishes his cigarette, we mosey

9:34

over to the then you. So

9:37

what's the money like for a good like this? And

9:40

a serious. Are you. What

9:43

is really for me and said the

9:45

you don't know what the right. For

9:48

you wouldn't be doing it is. There

9:51

was a money doing freely. It's

9:54

possible that he says or if

9:56

anything random then I wouldn't go

9:58

to the one. Also. Then

10:00

amanda half cellphone experience

10:02

to know riot. Yoga

10:05

know rate. Have.

10:10

Any other some moving other

10:13

big name him most model

10:15

the result really the Disney

10:17

exceeding the smokers and. I

10:20

mean that's insulting to the it's like you're

10:22

working. For.

10:27

We're I have some unmarked back

10:29

doors, and Ernesto confidently risks me

10:32

past security into a bustling. Hardware

10:37

maker of I'm aware that. There

10:41

are no and to cherish parked

10:43

in here. And loitering around

10:45

the room are a bunch of other

10:47

models, all waiting for a space to

10:49

open up. It. Looks like the

10:51

majority of the. Models. Here are also

10:53

like. Enough.

10:57

On the world over medicated. I will. Allow

11:01

you. To

11:05

see. The

11:07

diversity is boy and remind me

11:10

of the European Kapil Sibal the

11:12

closer than those really gross. Yeah

11:14

totally honest. Agree with a soccer

11:16

for friend and they stand around

11:19

talking shop for thirty or seven

11:21

minutes. Then the guys my my

11:23

can bag of here and Ernesto

11:25

introduces new his documentary on the

11:27

guys. Really impressed says he loves.

11:29

Documentary: What regular cigarettes?

11:32

I make a documentary about the

11:35

people. Are

11:39

worthy. Not see

11:41

that as audio is a

11:43

Saudi I am a foreigner.

11:45

Seen what you hear about

11:47

it at itself together mass

11:50

and creepy or them is

11:52

the movies I get. Slowly

11:55

been talking. It's gotten a lot. More

11:57

crowded. Than her. Maybe

12:01

there's a chance to get a meal for my hands. Sit.

12:04

In their okay. Great!

12:07

We are in business. Or

12:09

nest so is in the makeup chair and

12:11

it's about time. I imagine

12:13

you've had enough of the chatting and

12:15

waiting around for the option to start.

12:18

The Laurie, I'm on it. Is

12:21

Ernest I need you to describe what we're looking.

12:23

So where are we? Any decent

12:25

documentary and is able to do.

12:27

Their work thanks to a trustee

12:29

bag of tricks. Like getting

12:31

people to describe things. In. Detail for the

12:33

high seas at a fashion show. This is

12:35

a key so hundred and like well as

12:38

the eyes of you do the so you

12:40

can be seen in Europe alive. To

12:43

secret sauce that and sub free much

12:45

any documentary. Is sound design with the

12:47

little bit of scoring. Mckillop

12:50

for sound designer. I'm selma take

12:53

it away. Nice. While

12:56

the models and line the the getting

12:58

the nails on a hair done everything

13:00

none of the same time the on

13:02

the phone said to sell fees and

13:04

as the biographers skyn photos of production

13:07

feals running around in the looks together.

13:10

Club foot on every book Luna denim

13:12

skirt that of the utility that in

13:14

lot of parties summer's. Almost

13:17

or knows where? into the A

13:19

Report on with his arms around

13:21

like a zigzag. Chaotic. This is

13:23

crazy. Perhaps

13:30

the most essential tool as editing?

13:32

Just like Michelle can build us

13:35

a vibe from scratch. Everything you

13:37

hearing your average documentary has been

13:40

carefully curated and constructed from many

13:42

more hours of recording with thousands

13:44

of invisible internal cuts. So

13:49

let's go back to Er Nest as

13:51

description of what he's wearing for the

13:53

runway. the denim skirt with the utility

13:55

jacket. Here's the original unedited. Recording but I'd

13:58

put on a boat. I'm

14:00

going to Dunham does. Not

14:06

follow the nativity desert latter part is

14:09

the most sensitive and math exam and

14:11

don't have that I'm scared for the

14:13

big utility dad do a lot of

14:15

parties, the self. As you can hear

14:18

or Nesters original take drugs that see

14:20

don't get the full force at how

14:22

ethic he looks to create that impact.

14:24

I slip away all. The words they don't

14:27

need. More than

14:29

a third. So

14:31

it is a lot of part is. The most. Of

14:36

the same. Code.

14:41

I. Also decide on the order of the

14:43

clips. This. Could mean personal reflection

14:45

from the end of an interview and seeking

14:47

it at the beginning to help emphasize a

14:50

certain angle. Sometimes. To

14:52

flesh out an idea. A. Group clips

14:54

on a theme from two different interviews together

14:56

and men pass it off as though was

14:58

spoken all in one go. I'm.

15:01

Not changing. crucial information.

15:03

And. Just massaging a little. Like.

15:06

I told Ernesto photographer friend.

15:09

It's easy to see how editing contains

15:11

the content and context of what

15:13

people are talking about. This.

15:15

Is part of has story is constructed.

15:18

And depending on the outlet and

15:20

imagined audience, Whether. It's News

15:23

at Five or Dateline. These. Choices.

15:25

They're gonna look different. That

15:29

even the greatest sound design and

15:31

most strategic editing don't make a

15:33

great story. We. Still need

15:35

meet. Fournier. but the grimy.

15:38

The grimy stuff. I guess what

15:41

I'm saying this was swimming in

15:43

their Bowmore. I mean I want to

15:45

hear about all that. I guess I have

15:47

some questions about sort of the challenges as

15:49

the industry. He talked about a few things

15:51

like one of them that you tosca with.

15:53

sort of. this is feeling of objectification fulfilling.

15:55

Certain people expect certain things. Me

15:57

of the home being a model.

16:00

You are not said that their disposal they

16:02

will sell you show up here tomorrow and

16:05

even if you have work you have to

16:07

show up for they will look at to

16:09

lie he doesn't want a model Finding what

16:11

haircut looks best for mean we're was in

16:14

does was style I should give off to

16:16

the world. What is really means your. The

16:18

What will sell as you. And

16:20

As and a big controversy and modeling are

16:23

many of these people are absolute is

16:25

trying to cater to an audience that they

16:27

know they can make money out of. And

16:29

grown up in the Bronx. Walking. Always

16:32

told a story a lot of gangs would

16:34

limp with a certain foot. who express we're

16:36

getting they were with. And

16:39

sometimes I will tell the designer which

16:41

was the want to see we want

16:43

to see my walkers your to see

16:45

the model walk. you look at a

16:47

lot of fashion shows, models aren't even

16:49

lotsa who the neighbor express themselves. It

16:51

feels very limiting at times when you

16:53

are self proclaimed. art is. So.

16:57

Arnold as a response you're looking

17:00

for but I kept the pretty

17:02

boy. Know it's great I

17:04

guess. That is

17:06

it. Great. On

17:11

the subway have something about assassin

17:13

angle isn't sitting right little. At

17:17

his audition, Ernesto keys all

17:19

this stuff without the seedy

17:21

underbelly of a glamorous industry.

17:23

That the things I found most interesting?

17:25

The story that began to emerge in

17:27

the four hours I spent at the

17:29

Fashion Show. For. Not so much

17:32

about Ernesto. Such a structural issue

17:34

in that diversifying fashion industry. How

17:37

Ernesto and other particularly

17:40

racialized models. Are.

17:42

Objectified: Asked to

17:44

be a canvas for someone elses

17:46

brands. Or to come on

17:48

fi their. Culture. For no

17:50

or very little money. What

17:53

I hear is a story about how

17:56

bodies like Ernesto is are being used

17:58

by the fashion industry. And

18:00

it the same time are going

18:02

unseen. I

18:07

think it's a risk territory. But.

18:10

I'm a white woman from Canada,

18:12

and there are definitely many people

18:14

who do a much better job

18:16

than me of understanding all the

18:18

nuanced racial dynamics at play in

18:20

the story. Also.

18:22

The story is much bigger than Ernesto, and

18:24

to do it well, I'd need to talk

18:26

to a lot more people. And. I

18:29

just don't have the production budget take that

18:31

on. The. Series

18:33

I sold to Radio Topeka features

18:35

personal stories, and that's partially because

18:37

stories of individuals facing struggles are

18:40

easier and faster to produce and

18:42

to deliver on. So

18:45

now I make an executive decision,

18:47

a practical and professional ones to

18:49

stick to the brief of the

18:51

project. I now already been partially

18:53

paid for. To keep the stories

18:56

contained to the personnel and work

18:58

with the resources, I do have

19:00

access to a new to ask

19:02

Ernesto if we can pivot to

19:04

his addiction. Story. Heads

19:09

up. When. Her back from the break.

19:11

Things are gonna get real with Ernesto and

19:14

there will be talk about drug use. And

19:16

self harm. I

19:26

arranged to meet Ernesto at his apartment

19:28

in the Bronx. There

19:31

are dishes stacked in the sink,

19:34

overflowing ashtrays that looks almost

19:36

like are sculptures, and piles of

19:38

leather and lace and denim. Fabric.

19:41

every word. Cameras think

19:43

it's. The centerpiece of the

19:46

room is a sewing machine and a

19:48

raft of structured. Garments. It

19:50

turns out that Ernesto the fashion designer

19:52

to. A made this would

19:55

rather for some Mansell with a

19:57

necklace class put it on. However,

20:01

for. Amazing

20:03

section strengths. Cool

20:06

though. He's a cool. Thing:

20:09

these are your style little

20:11

bit fuzzy party pooper know

20:13

a span. Of

20:17

these are really gorgeous. Have

20:20

a lot of potential I just need to increase. Was.

20:24

Mean he grabs. An armful of clothes

20:26

off the couch, dumps them on a side

20:28

table to make room for us, and then

20:30

launches. Into. His story and know

20:32

hours a drug addict before

20:34

even touched drugs. Janis Joplin,

20:36

Jimi Hendrix, All of them.

20:38

I would watch the documentaries

20:41

about them. Twenty Sevens Club

20:43

heroin addict. I

20:45

saw refuge in all the stars

20:47

and stuff. Or mom and Dad

20:49

divorce When. I came

20:51

basically my dad was and ready and has

20:53

been like an absence of my life and

20:55

is hard for kids and I have is

20:57

that when you for Hudson. You

20:59

know any means and get bullied and

21:02

called names home as well as a

21:04

failure. Couldn't. Again would have been.

21:06

Some. Was on the moon. On

21:10

So smoke weed out with people

21:12

smoking weed together, giggling and I

21:15

felt that community assault like I

21:17

belonged. For

21:20

everything else, sorta on

21:22

nice. It

21:25

only took a couple months for me to get

21:27

into purposes. Getting

21:29

high on opiates was like and

21:31

workers node last hours. And

21:35

you just feel warm, overly giving homes.

21:38

And. Soy One.

21:41

He was like the hose I never got. From

21:44

friends and my Dad and mom. And

21:48

her so drawn from the only convicted. In

21:52

own, sometimes the drugs or in in

21:54

Austin and I'll get high end and

21:56

not even feel better. I was still

21:59

feel the same. The news whom I

22:01

spoke getting on my knees and praying

22:03

willing I promise I'm a single anymore

22:05

as please Lord opening in Mclean would

22:08

over have to do please. And

22:12

a new it's and I'll isn't bad

22:14

mind drugs and I just felt hopeless.

22:16

And Roses on Fanatic for Lights and

22:18

Will. Eventually

22:26

earnest as family finds

22:28

out just how bad

22:30

things. Are. In they

22:32

said this it was gonna drive

22:35

straight to or institution where have

22:37

you can do. But

22:39

as much as he hates being

22:41

addicted, the treatments don't seem very

22:43

useful. It became like a

22:45

fun game to go into programs

22:48

and just mess around a thesis.

22:50

Corny weight by old lady psychiatrists

22:52

and. since I'm

22:55

a preacher. Came in. And

22:57

in the psych ward and he gave us

22:59

business cards. If you have room to talk

23:01

about the lord, give me a call. And

23:04

I said the card and assorted putting my

23:06

wrist. who's As And instead of painting my

23:09

hand blood and a selling your muscles or

23:11

the hands of thing with blood. Cenozoic

23:16

selling addicts to stop stop

23:18

been I like was a

23:20

problem. just be good but

23:22

why would they want a

23:24

bigger than why would they

23:26

want whatever that means good

23:28

while the they want to

23:30

be in society. Has

23:40

I'm listening. I'm getting these. Kindles,

23:44

This happens to me when

23:46

I transition from performing interest

23:48

as the interviewer, nodding eye

23:51

contact, following the scripted the

23:53

questions I prepared to getting

23:55

sucked in. Feeling. That

23:57

my interview he is saying. The.

23:59

Team. Those are. A. Tell tale sign

24:01

that the power of story is

24:04

working on me. They remind me

24:06

of my old dream to build

24:08

empathy through documentary. Is

24:10

someone's words can touch me in the moment?

24:12

display? I. Know they'll have the power

24:14

to work on my listeners to. After

24:18

a slew of different sailed programs

24:21

are nestor winds up in this

24:23

last treatment program. Or

24:25

same in it was all. Be

24:28

good orders and became my

24:30

worst enemy. And

24:32

hopes to. Not be

24:35

a victim of it anymore. And they

24:37

called it an image As an arena

24:39

so you have image negative image. He

24:41

needs a change. So.

24:44

I let go when I complied

24:46

and have found myself. It's

24:53

been four years of sobriety or

24:55

Nestor says he looks around his

24:57

apartment, at the fabric in the

24:59

close, at the sewing machine, And

25:03

will Bruin artist and tell myself that

25:05

like enough for me she was. Thinking

25:08

and seal it. Is

25:13

very scary when I get the

25:15

predecessor overwhelmed. No

25:18

no drugs to escape reality. I

25:20

on have bad have is I

25:23

don't know those escape routes sun

25:25

never thought. grown up obeying orders

25:27

for a close. this has me

25:29

like second one motions and letting

25:32

them so well. I

25:35

hope I have the opportunity to

25:37

bring this to the world and

25:39

share My story is not something

25:42

like. This vocally on

25:44

a podium. My

25:47

hopes own. All of them are

25:49

close and see some emotion as

25:51

on triumphs and some old. How's

26:02

it going? Freeze? Are you doing so as a

26:04

villain? supposed? To that. Sylvia

26:07

haven't I feel like gun or nord

26:09

to save some within. You

26:12

know I'm used to tell my story to addicts

26:14

and Room for that is What? What When a

26:16

toads of the world as oh no really know

26:19

how is a different. Animal

26:21

simulators you understand in an immunity. Easy to

26:24

tell him that it's man I really want

26:26

to use to the i don't know they'll

26:28

get it and they can give me where

26:30

is. I

26:33

know you want the engagement. the wow He

26:35

must be tough for him to still. Feel

26:38

like an added either four years apart.

26:40

while. Being. An

26:43

industry embellishing is. Important

26:45

in entertained socially oriented thousand different

26:48

ways on it's own Most engaging

26:50

intriguing funny man who brings out

26:52

the most most and new known

26:55

as or. So

26:57

I only know. What

27:00

I should sound like house Project Morpheus

27:02

has to be a little deeper in.

27:07

The first first phone the

27:09

accent only know what. What?

27:14

Do you think listener? Do

27:17

you need something different from Ernesto?

27:20

Do you need him to tell his story

27:22

in a different way? With.

27:25

A different accents. Or

27:27

more drama. Do

27:30

you have the tingles? Does

27:32

Ernesto story seal Worth your

27:34

time and attention? Or.

27:37

Does it seem? Generic.

27:41

I'm. Always wondering what you need my

27:43

listener as I wade through moments

27:45

like this: Moments. That

27:47

probably won't make the final cut. One.

27:50

Of the things I really like a

27:52

better Nest though is that he seems

27:54

to get that any story he's telling

27:56

me is going to become the product.

27:59

He's. Certainly producing himself.

28:02

In. Some ways, this makes him an

28:04

ideal partner. And my project. I

28:07

feel like something that I've been. Struggling.

28:11

With I guess as

28:13

an. Outsider, that china

28:16

of you tell you story

28:18

is like. Trying to get

28:20

beyond. The

28:23

say you know beyond us

28:25

surface level there it is

28:27

of like I had trauma.

28:31

I became a drug out here. Now I'm

28:33

clean. You know that I just. What

28:36

is the lesser you're here to teach me

28:38

or it's guide me to we can talk

28:40

Obama current struggles more I know I ramble

28:42

lot I don't want to idle for your

28:44

guiding me to it. you know because of

28:46

I just rambling ramble the would and. What

28:51

do you want the documentary to be? Like

28:53

you know, we've recorded a bunch of

28:55

hours together so far. The

28:57

like as a citizen of. What?

29:00

Should be. Trying to

29:03

think about it as internal how of

29:05

audio works and stuff. It's

29:07

been a few hours and I think we're

29:09

both running out of steam. In

29:12

I'm trying not to be whistle blower like.

29:16

And modeling industry they tried to

29:18

rape me. I guess I'll go

29:20

of police brutality me and wanted

29:22

to that possessed like selling out

29:24

and I'm not running a to

29:27

do that. Yeah with as it's

29:29

around the moon. For

29:32

both tired. And I'm kind of at

29:34

a loss of what to do next. So

29:36

I decide to wrap things up here. He.

29:43

I mean I guess that's that's part of

29:45

this. the struggle that I have because. So.

29:47

Did easy to say oh I want him

29:50

to steer the ship. Public.

29:52

Doesn't know how I met my bi

29:55

weekly editorial meeting with the Radio Topi

29:57

a team talking about what I've recorded

29:59

so. Far with Ernesto and

30:01

how I'm feeling about this

30:04

process. As a professional storyteller,

30:06

Where you're like trying to hold. Ah,

30:08

like and but the and

30:10

knowledge of. Market.

30:13

Functionality as the same time. On

30:16

some god that it feels

30:18

messy. And the Radio Topi

30:20

a team is trying to help out. I

30:22

was like who is the savvy

30:24

one here by you know, just

30:26

the professional or. Or

30:29

nest, oh, the model where

30:31

he's very comfortable with the

30:33

idea of be like God.

30:36

Like played to be molded. That's.

30:39

Managing producer Uri Lasorda and

30:41

he's the one who psych.

30:45

Traded maybe Ben and as I.

30:47

Know this is the system. And

30:50

here's Audrey again Radio Topi

30:52

as executive producer The Question

30:55

that you're sort of dancing

30:57

around his. Yes,

31:00

documentaries are supposed to be

31:02

impossible, but they are also

31:05

entertainment and like. They're

31:08

being sold, right? So that is

31:10

often how people are selling them

31:13

is as entertainment. As infotainment

31:15

or whatever you want to call

31:17

it. And so how A? How

31:19

to? How Do. You are? can

31:21

you do do both? It's a

31:24

great question. And no one on

31:26

the call seems to have an answer. The.

31:29

Zoom meeting screen is just

31:31

a grid of silent nods.

31:33

Lucy. For. Food.

31:38

Or. Everyone's

31:40

bobbing. A.

31:46

Few weeks later and I'm still puzzling over

31:49

what to do with all that tape from

31:51

Ernesto. it's clear to

31:53

me now that within the scope of

31:55

my project i plan to let ernesto

31:58

direct his own documentary about himself was

32:00

always doomed to fail because

32:02

I have a product to deliver. But

32:05

as I listen back to the tape, I

32:08

start to hear a third story angle.

32:11

It's something Ernesto didn't pitch to me

32:13

directly, but that he's been showing and

32:15

telling me. Speaking of which, I

32:17

do have Venmo. So,

32:19

so because I owe you some

32:21

money. Yeah, I can really use some money right now

32:24

too. For years

32:26

now, one of Ernesto's main

32:28

jobs has been being a model. Like

32:31

he said, it's being a

32:33

professional object. And now

32:35

that he's part of my project, he's

32:37

essentially become a professional

32:39

subject. OK, I only

32:41

have 700, when 1200. So

32:45

we spent about seven hours

32:47

together. So

32:49

seven hours is one hundred and

32:51

forty dollars. And what

32:54

Ernesto needs is five hundred dollars to

32:56

pay rent, object

32:58

or subject, the

33:00

transformative power of storytelling

33:02

or not. This

33:05

gig simply isn't paying enough to make

33:08

a difference in Ernesto's life. And

33:11

usually this sort of professional

33:13

subject opportunity doesn't

33:15

pay at all, just

33:17

like the modeling gigs. I

33:19

really appreciate if you sent me like.

33:26

And that's my pride and shyness. You know, I

33:28

don't have it in me to say I ain't

33:30

doing it for this much. Like I'll do it for

33:32

free. I'll never ask you. By

33:34

necessity, Ernesto has become an expert at

33:37

giving people what they want to see

33:39

and hear. Cash rules, everything around.

33:41

Queen gets the money. Tada, Tada,

33:44

do your own. That

33:50

pressure to tell a story that

33:52

seems exceptional and not generic, it

33:55

forces us to take real lives, to

33:58

take Ernesto's life. and

34:00

to ascribe value to how well

34:02

he can narrate his most traumatic

34:05

experiences, so that

34:07

we can experience empathy. But

34:11

empathy to what end? And

34:15

for whose benefit? Whose

34:17

bottom line? I

34:23

could tell a thousand stories about

34:25

Ernesto using all my tricks of

34:27

the trade. I

34:29

could even have him tell the rape or

34:31

the police brutality stories he offered up. But

34:34

the last thing I want to do

34:37

is turn Ernesto's pain into your pleasure.

34:40

And I'm beginning to think I've designed this

34:42

whole project around a flawed premise. How

34:46

can I make good on my commitment to

34:48

radiotopia now? And

34:51

how does it change how I need to work with my

34:53

other three subjects? I've

34:55

only just started. At

34:59

least if all else fails, we're

35:01

all getting paid. Man goes to

35:04

college and poor man goes

35:06

to work. Another

35:09

one. I love

35:11

that line. I

35:16

don't want much nothing at all,

35:18

but I will take another. I

35:28

will take another. Oh

35:33

no, no, no. I'm

35:35

not a place to be kind. And

35:38

to be a dear son, to

35:40

be free to call am I,

35:42

and be a intercede. I'm

35:45

far too always, even

35:48

if I don't do it

35:50

all the best. But

35:53

that's just How the service getting

35:55

deeper makes me heard. From

36:03

Radio Toby Presents this was

36:05

episode to of shocking heartbreaking

36:07

transform it as a series

36:10

about what happens to all

36:12

of us subjects, documentary ends

36:14

and audiences when stories about

36:16

our lives become products. I'm

36:21

just saying. I wrote and produced

36:23

this episode with help from a

36:25

bunch of people like editor is

36:28

Sarah Next, The executive producer radio

36:30

Topeka is Audrey Mart of It's

36:32

Pretty Utopias. Managing producer is your

36:34

Elazar Dell or Sound designer and

36:36

mix engineer is Michelle Maclin and

36:38

our music was composed by Allies

36:41

and the Me with additional music

36:43

by Michelle Maclin. Mona has and

36:45

provided production support and are episode

36:47

are is by Justin Broadbent. Thanks

36:49

also to. Cali Anderson's Jason Fox

36:51

T okay I, Anson Jordan Lord

36:53

Meter couple least Eleanor Mcdowell and

36:56

Pooja Random are also wanted to

36:58

shout out who does amazing book

37:00

and mediations which blew my mind

37:02

and in for much of the

37:04

thinking behind this episode and the

37:06

series as a whole audible into

37:08

the book in the show Notes:

37:11

This reporting. Was also supported by

37:14

the International Women's Media Foundations Howard

37:16

G. Baset Fund for. Women Journalists'

37:47

You to me.