23:59:59

8/5 letter Radiolab is supported by the John Templeton Foundation, funding research and catalyzing conversations that inspire people with awe and wonder, learn about the latest discoveries in the science of well-being, complexity forgiveness, and Free Will at Templeton. Org. Wnycstudios

0:20

W y C is supported

0:22

by carvana. Carvana is in

0:24

the business of driving you, happy, and saving

0:27

you time. That's

0:28

why they have thousands of car options to

0:30

purchase online and offer. As soon

0:32

as next day delivery, visit carvana.com

0:35

or download the app to shop for a vehicle.

0:41

Customer support wnycstudios.

0:45

We'll

0:47

watch.

0:53

Your'and and been listening to radio radio,

0:57

friendly, w and. weiss

0:59

sit down

1:07

This. Is radio lab last year

1:10

a cyber attack disrupted the colonial

1:12

pipeline is big your for cybercrime

1:14

the up the I come from it's investigative

1:16

one hundred different types of ran?

1:18

Somewhere attacks, according to the F.B. b I.

1:21

saw the amount of money taken by Ran somewhere has

1:23

gone up, be more than a thousand

1:25

percent over the past five years and.

1:27

It's got to thinking about this episode we did

1:29

on this new kind of crime

1:31

way back, and it's relatively quaint early

1:33

days and twenty fifth team called

1:36

Dark coat

1:39

Hey, I'm John Abu Rod, I'm Robert Krulwich,

1:41

this is radio lab, and today, well, today

1:43

we're going to tell you a story which we hope

1:46

does not become your future, but it raises

1:48

simple question.

1:49

We all have computers, we love computers,

1:51

we depend upon computers, but what is the cost

1:53

of using your computer becomes more

1:56

than you're willing to pay to stories

1:58

today? Which suggests. That we might

2:00

be at the very beginning.

2:02

If a nightmare, the

2:04

first comes from journalist

2:07

Alina Simone and her mother email to

2:11

her. She only got in

2:13

touch with me, maybe on days that I took him

2:15

to me. Oh, yeah. Okay. So

2:17

what? Yeah. day one? That was the first

2:19

thing that happened.

2:20

On day one here,

2:22

Palm Desert, a call tufts

2:25

university eighty services

2:28

because of mine has been self,

2:30

said starts complaining that's

2:32

my computer is unbearably

2:35

number of bliss slow.

2:36

They still made, yeah, don't know what's going on every time

2:38

I try to open a window, it's like click.

2:43

Practically, stop to work in

2:45

what do I do?

2:46

They checked whatever said

2:48

and probably nothing reboot

2:50

is so did Nurse and basically

2:53

them. He went away for the weekend. Then

2:55

when they came that.

2:58

John the him sit on and,

3:01

a like it was doing

3:03

since and He and.

3:06

In for many, many windows.

3:08

Covering her screen. Mm,

3:11

the those windows multiplied,

3:13

stooped to do they cannot open

3:16

new of them and they could not

3:18

see give that it was very latest

3:20

nice. So you.

3:22

and bed The next day.

3:25

That again asking

3:27

for help.

3:28

"They are no idea what's going on, know says this

3:30

point whenever the computer been doing" From

3:32

them. The window of this city

3:34

and.

3:35

Had now any time she tried to collect any

3:38

of your files?

3:38

The to me guess I

3:41

cannot open a new of them.

3:43

Instead, every time this message

3:45

would Papa. And the man said says.

3:48

What happened to your files

3:50

love my file of yours I've

3:52

been protected, strong encryption

3:54

and encrypted using crypto

3:56

wall this means that the structure

3:58

and data within your thoughts. We have been irrevocably

4:01

changed. The in order

4:04

to give them back.

4:05

How to unlock files, you must

4:07

pay $500 US dollars. If

4:09

you really value your data, then

4:11

we suggest that you do not waste valuable time

4:14

searching for the solutions because

4:16

they do not You're

4:18

saying Somebody went into your

4:20

computer and locked up all of your things. Yeah.

4:23

They gave me an exact

4:25

count 5726

4:29

files encrypted with you say,

4:31

they did, you have any image

4:33

in your head of who? My editor thought

4:35

was Russia.

4:37

Or? Ukraine, which is even

4:39

but why, because

4:42

you know everybody talks about

4:44

excellent, fantastic education

4:46

there, especially Mass I'm

4:49

from that I know you know she's right,

4:51

they surpass the U.S. s And educating

4:53

their kids when it comes to math and science,

4:56

and they've got a severe

4:58

under employment problem, especially

5:00

outside of the major cities, which is where these

5:02

viruses often. trace down to not Moscow

5:04

and St Petersburg what we're talking about, you know, backwater,

5:07

I was so positive that

5:10

a it comes from that part

5:12

of the ruled that I

5:14

wrote. them in the

5:16

rush and.

5:17

Apparently, the criminals who had provided or a link to website

5:20

where she could send them message, you know, customer

5:22

support.

5:22

I. wrote them so

5:24

let's see if those two a dumb

5:27

home from to translated into English

5:29

more, direct less, some, some like

5:31

I was feel all die or

5:33

during their. Dark are biased

5:35

and in Reston language, the

5:37

reserved to die

5:40

for your months or and

5:42

that's ever fly anymore. That

5:44

use the animal was, yeah.

5:45

Not a girls but you're

5:48

they got the message.

5:49

Now penises she thought about

5:51

Ah just wiping the computer clean so that she wouldn't

5:53

have to pay for. them the correct or

5:56

that are husband had all these files on their

5:58

list singing and it you know like this This

6:00

receipt to the and filed yet.

6:01

He's lazy to do so I can print

6:03

so foul and she's right that, like you

6:05

know, she has this tax information, this

6:07

reimbursement information ultimately it's

6:09

worth more than five hundred dollars my

6:12

husband didn't phone to play. The overall

6:14

teams.

6:17

Then. into decides to follow

6:19

the insults and they sit point

6:22

one download and install Tor browser

6:24

so she goes in and sells his brother called Torah,

6:26

which apparently is more trace

6:29

about. To run the browser and

6:31

wave or initialization, she does

6:33

that three help in the address

6:35

Bar Cherry Pie, seven y C. R. seven

6:37

J. Excellencies directed to a site where basically.

6:39

Tells her look if you don't trust us. We

6:41

can decrypt.

6:44

One of your files

6:46

for free as a sample

6:48

that when you pay us, you

6:50

would know that you could really

6:52

get all your files back

6:55

and

6:56

I was curious. decided

7:00

that will say.

7:01

Though she click the button, the said yes and

7:04

to look for got one. I'll

7:07

bet. But as soon

7:09

as a deemed. Their

7:12

blocks, that three kids. Then, really,

7:14

she said, little clock appear to the top the rest.

7:16

They gave me exactly as there when

7:19

they.

7:20

One hundred and sixty seven hours,

7:22

fifty nine minutes, fifty

7:24

nine seconds or so, you have secrets

7:26

of thing and then suddenly it's account.

7:28

Yes live births if you won't

7:30

play by this the them

7:33

of the five will,

7:36

this album and his the woman's

7:38

face didn't have one more

7:40

been. there was a little source

7:43

file for on Then

7:45

you will never get them back.

7:47

Now, in the messages told, you know, that she had

7:49

to pay that five hundred dollar fine, not dollars.

7:52

That in bitcoin, your A.

7:54

The do for the first time.

7:57

in my life ever life

7:59

saw The term "bit coin"?

8:02

Though I have.

8:04

found this website

8:06

Called Coin Cafe, where you can

8:08

buy bitcoin.

8:10

The end to buy this bitcoins

8:13

is a night.

8:14

Is it for what what? she

8:16

needed to do with exchange five hundred

8:18

bucks for the requisite amount of bitcoins and

8:21

at the time of five hundred bucks equaled

8:23

one point three seven bitcoins

8:26

but before she even make that exchange

8:28

sit there fill it all these forms of these questions

8:31

What happened with is the reason

8:33

to buy bitcoin as easily

8:35

as well listed, one of them was the Rams

8:37

some.

8:38

Hello there, but not on average now,

8:40

during.

8:41

Yes, it will this history them

8:43

to pay a ransom to the

8:45

criminal. Next

8:48

as you get ft belittle the forums. You

8:50

have to make bleak share

8:53

am. sam them Water grow

8:55

through the internet, okay? I

8:58

did not see like Cam.

8:59

Reboot, cause he says your camera

9:02

having been shot or.

9:03

What them that I have to

9:06

make your feet shirts of my

9:08

husband's of all the in

9:10

the driver's license

9:13

Sam? them of this

9:15

space ship back so A

9:18

banquet, the criminals know I

9:20

was.

9:20

If the people who sell

9:23

your bitcoin oh my in exchange

9:25

for your money, I told you

9:27

that it's a torch is unbelievable.

9:30

But eventually she was able to find a neighbor, bar the

9:32

camera, take the pictures she needs to take, then

9:34

she had to get the money soon to exchange

9:36

to Coin Cafe, in it turns out

9:38

the preferred way to do it the most secure way

9:40

to do it is not online by. The

9:43

or money order.

9:43

The for the day read before

9:46

this aims given whims.

9:48

They're still had about six days before

9:50

the deadline, so she thought Hi else pop down

9:52

as post office that of money. That

9:55

lies, or more

10:00

Because he the same most terrible

10:02

snowstorms for a lot of us, this

10:04

could be the biggest storm so far this

10:06

winter and drivable role

10:08

and significant snow wet snow

10:10

at them, but I have to.

10:12

Way to the Apple store, so

10:14

she plows through the snow almost killed

10:16

herself with gets their gets everything together, sends

10:19

it off. Psycho are.

10:21

So finally, I send

10:23

everything out there,

10:25

Post Office is suing me that

10:27

they will get through.

10:29

On Friday, this is the

10:31

first working day after the

10:33

same even. Okay,

10:35

so one fries. Gauguin

10:38

Cafe.

10:38

They did not get service on

10:41

Saturday if they didn't on defense

10:43

on Monday in the morning and

10:46

nothing was deliver and I

10:48

was desperate because my

10:50

deadline would use the some

10:52

suddenly felt or and. i

10:54

said well then the post office

10:57

whatever nobody knows and sniffs

10:59

it yesterday said there is

11:01

no bearing Fine

11:03

and walk. Law in the

11:05

afternoon on Monday.

11:07

Twenty four hours for the deadline they got it

11:10

C N.

11:12

They send me bitcoin.

11:15

In a change because they got my money.

11:18

But. That's when she went online to check

11:20

her bitcoin account I'm thirty

11:23

dollars for.

11:27

"The hope among other things are you

11:29

here we four hundred and then I sat

11:31

call them basically the exchange

11:34

rate of she's on her seat, bought it at five hundred

11:36

now was worth four, eighty seven say.

11:38

"Them how often do change,

11:41

they soon as it and they said there

11:43

for him" In it.

11:46

Did you hear remain as Isis

11:48

are you crazy I was

11:50

a double this term I was

11:53

with some square for?

11:55

them few books as soon as a means

11:57

vika drive and was terrible

12:00

The to friend of mine had to get

12:02

a camera, and then I was

12:04

struggling so sam

12:06

them that.

12:06

The problem with this crime, like the criminals,

12:09

need a better way to get money from the

12:11

fix the bug. Now face

12:13

of though.

12:14

I'm on the edge of my see here so sir

12:16

your thirteen dollars sure as,

12:19

as. as society

12:21

Well, and they this, and there is one

12:23

more way. One more

12:25

way. What is a vehicle

12:28

that t'm miss? miss The good.

12:31

The said what yes the

12:33

seven a t m machines one.

12:36

live one and they said where is

12:38

it It's him.

12:39

Real quiet Brooklyn, New York, own

12:42

the two hundred miles way to figure: "I don't understand

12:44

this fear is one eighty am

12:46

that is in the borough of Brooklyn Bridge, you do

12:48

not live exact loss for luckily

12:51

her daughter, alina lives in Brooklyn.

12:53

You have me as well, my daughter doesn't

12:55

love this girl. Then she call

12:57

the Lena. Yeah, my mom called me the night

12:59

before the Ransom was Duce on, Are you of

13:01

any of this at this point.

13:03

No. No, I remember. You know, was at night

13:05

the a on and I have a toddler and his,

13:07

how is things going on? I was probably

13:09

on my laptop to was doing like, 12

13:11

things and mom called, and she was like, upset

13:13

with a capital u. She started

13:16

ranting about criminals and Ransom.

13:18

I literally thought she was like

13:20

talking and Eric Lewis. I'm like, oh, yeah. know

13:22

when go to text. Yeah, that's,

13:25

that's extortion and my mom was like,

13:27

no, like no, it's really a rancid

13:29

up there. Really criminals Google

13:31

cryptowall. Plus.

13:35

a

13:36

I started Google thing as she

13:38

suggested do, and found out

13:40

the police departments had paid. This that

13:43

sheriff's department, and dicks. Tennessee.

13:45

had just paid a to unlock, like,

13:47

you know, seventy plus thousand

13:50

case files and I was like, "Yeah. Crooks

13:52

go after police department got after. There

13:54

are many universities, corporation.

13:57

The department's as the question of a club in

13:59

your my like. Why, my mom? No,

14:01

not at all, as an outlet million people

14:03

in the U.S. has been infected with. The

14:05

new very thing, yeah.

14:07

The next. day listen

14:09

six hours lesson penises to lena please

14:11

go to the say tm seconds be done with

14:13

this whole thing you can tap has

14:16

But. I can tell you that

14:18

in the morning and she said feel that

14:20

they'd pull out my grim

14:22

don't have been so, plainly

14:24

days won't be able to do.

14:26

It themselves for of O'clock the make

14:29

calls again, again survey of crazy,

14:32

don't have time, so go

14:34

out in Greenpoint this hm

14:36

and, and you know, just want. To have that little you

14:38

have your played, like

14:41

my, posts oh emergency

14:44

saw visual you sort

14:46

of, man, you know

14:48

sure as okay so I. Set, my

14:50

playdate sort this

14:52

i. forget that crusoe the green

14:56

point and they have an eighty am and

14:58

That's why did is gonna be 57 people

15:01

all lined up it's a the single ATM that

15:03

you guys were. Totally

15:04

not 5075e. Most people do take

15:06

care of this remotely. Like

15:08

there was no one expecting

15:12

the cast into an ATM. Like I have a Capital

15:14

account. I know what an ATM is, you know, but

15:17

this is not like the second floor of a

15:19

work sharespace in Brooklyn

15:21

is like in the hallway. There was like

15:23

bike hanging from wall kind of blocking

15:25

and there's like paper sign taped

15:27

to the wall. That just had printout

15:30

from the computer that just said Bitcoin ATM,

15:32

all lower case letters in an arrow

15:34

to this phone, but it

15:36

looked very Soviet like if you see the

15:38

photos of those phones with no buttons

15:40

and there's just receiver and it's

15:42

totally scary. It's like red line. Yeah.

15:44

Yeah, like, you just pick it up, and like somebody

15:46

is always on the other line or something, it

15:48

was like that, it was just this boxes,

15:50

the screen and no buttons. And

15:53

camera I hope for is, and what you

15:55

do you hold up your Q V C

15:57

code is that what they're called QVC,

15:59

what are they come? The you are.

16:02

The bike riding it. Yeah. Like about that others,

16:04

his Q. R. code and my mom

16:06

had emailed it's mean with like you need to print this

16:08

out in this is a sent this essentially gives.

16:10

You access to my account to

16:12

top it off, you know, and so I put this Q.

16:15

R. C code up to the camera I and it

16:17

kind of went group and. Then

16:19

it was like, at we are accessing

16:21

your account and then. got

16:24

a spinning wheel.

16:25

You got the wheel of death yeah no

16:28

scenario, any

16:30

such thing to be dying or mom's guys when cafe

16:33

Cobb. You know, I left like three phone messages

16:35

and my eyes left five,

16:37

so finally they called me back like

16:40

twenty minutes later said, "Okay, we're sending

16:42

a technician over to six" The machine,

16:44

which was very cool, I didn't think that would happen,

16:47

and so, you know, the technician was there

16:49

and keep peace six the machine and he's

16:51

helped me deposit these. Twenty five dollars

16:54

and then on he was there's hockey

16:56

and he was, he was like, "Yeah, you know,

16:58

he knew my mom is good or he'd been

17:01

talking to on the. Phone: He's like feel so bad for your

17:03

mom we've been getting so many of these cases and I'm

17:05

like, "Why are you flying lot of these cases,

17:07

yeah, as a?" White guys getting so

17:10

why seventh and he's like, oh, know

17:12

why, because in the ransom note that

17:14

they give a list of preferred

17:16

vendors and we're number one.

17:18

Do. What is the introduction, what a bad

17:20

introduction to bitcoins like

17:23

we're going to hold you ransom for all

17:25

your information until you know

17:27

use this new currency to pay us off?

17:29

I mean, that's a terrible, this is my coats

17:32

and John Hard, they are the corners of

17:34

Coin Cafe, I had a few weeks back

17:36

grandmother who was in tears

17:38

are. She's not lose all of our family photos

17:41

and because the deadline was coming up, you know, crying

17:43

on the phone or me, and it got is it

17:45

felt are clearly people. whom and

17:47

sell bitcoins disbelieve that there should

17:49

be digital currency that is decentralized

17:52

that doesn't rely on the banks, but unfortunately

17:54

has become the currency of choice for

17:56

ransom sincere.

17:58

and books and there and is weird This. And

18:00

thought it's tricky thing because I

18:02

can't sell bitcoin to someone who know

18:05

is gonna do something illegal with it, rape sets will

18:07

Miller, who runs a bitcoin exchange. Called Express

18:09

Coin, and he says he in the other exchanges

18:11

are really worried right now that it's cheap

18:14

helping the little guys pay the ransom, nor

18:16

to get their files. Backs, they are in sec,

18:18

making themselves accessories to crime,

18:20

I finally got a call back from our fence

18:22

and.

18:23

Which is the federal authority for

18:26

a financial crime enforcement network, they said

18:28

that. We could perceive

18:31

paying ransom as. I'm

18:33

awful activity. And so.

18:36

They might choose to use that against the company.

18:38

The who helped out, right? likely

18:40

Until we get straight answer from Fins and will take

18:43

the overly cautious approach and

18:45

start declining these transactions even though

18:47

in your heart you want to health, we I mean do.

18:49

want to risk being indicted for helping you get

18:52

your travel or is he to reimburse from

18:54

a company? I mean to mean

18:56

it is now. In

18:58

any case.

19:02

After Alenia deposits the extra

19:04

and twenty five bucks in her mom's bitcoin

19:07

account ina. the mom goes online

19:09

They're make less and it

19:11

was gone. But

19:14

then? That an hour

19:17

later.

19:17

I went to my computer,

19:20

and there was another message that

19:22

your lane. No no.

19:26

Now that I was two and

19:28

a half hour, though. The

19:31

have to pay one thousand,

19:34

three hundred dollar roughly.

19:36

I didn't love him a new budget, the John

19:39

too.

19:39

So she went to that same website where you can write

19:41

them a message.

19:42

Hi rob them that I

19:44

was delayed but as

19:46

mentioned the snow storm

19:49

the things in this

19:51

they probably send us a veil

19:53

of em the of course

19:55

of the of the wonderful us

19:59

mailed.

20:00

Then I said that tried,

20:02

and was only two.

20:05

Our late and

20:07

then all of a sudden. I'm

20:11

getting the message you paid.

20:14

In full. The

20:17

about need.

20:22

The word on my tab.

20:26

Do if they took pity on her?

20:29

Maybe a food that

20:31

is over fine now

20:33

like it is real. Or

20:35

wow?

20:43

Who's make you wonder like who these

20:45

people are we?

20:47

the story about that up next

21:03

The up.

21:04

Radio. Ad is supported by satisfy

21:07

a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere,

21:09

giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved

21:11

for big businesses it's customized for

21:14

your needs, provides tool to manage your. Day

21:16

to day needs and drive sales and helps

21:18

make your idea real it's, journey

21:20

but that's the beauty of entrepreneurship.

21:23

simplify powers millions of entrepreneurs

21:25

from first sale to full scale every

21:28

twenty eight seconds small business owner

21:30

makes are for sale on sat beside access

21:32

powerful tools to help ease and customers

21:34

drive sales manager day to day plus

21:37

with twenty four seven support you're never alone

21:39

this is possibility power by

21:41

sat beside

21:42

Go to Shopify.com, dot com slash radiolab

21:45

all lower case for fourteen free fourteen

21:47

day trial and get full access to shopping

21:49

centers entire suite of features that

21:52

shopify dot com

21:53

Flash Media Lab. Me.

21:59

He added. The thought that.

22:01

Your old bad can be costing you more

22:03

than you think, with bad sleep comes

22:05

a bad mood and bad mood can

22:07

lead to lower work productivity and less

22:09

energy.

22:11

Did? Your old bed and start owning your days

22:13

and nights with a new stop, the mattress

22:15

choose from nine handcrafted options for

22:17

any type of sleeper plus every stop

22:20

the order includes. Free white glove delivery

22:22

so they'll set up your new bad and take away

22:24

your old one for free.

22:26

Is it Saatva dot. com slash radiolab

22:29

to get two hundred dollars off purchases

22:31

of a thousand dollars or more? That

22:33

double. a He'the the dot

22:36

com slash. The media lab.

22:39

Then.

22:41

rita Lab is supported by Capital One with no

22:43

fees or minimum is banking, with Capital One is

22:45

the easiest decision in the history of decisions even

22:47

easier than deciding to listen to. Another episode

22:49

of your favorite podcast and with no overdraft

22:51

fees is it even decision that is banking

22:54

reimagined what's in your wallet

22:56

terms apply, see Capital One Dot.

22:58

com Slash Bank. Capital

23:01

one and a member ft I see.

23:06

Am. General Rod I'm Robert Krulwich

23:08

says Radio Lab, so here's the next obvious question:

23:10

who did this to, you know, I do know anything about

23:13

them, but we put that question to? chose

23:15

his men investigative reporter for Reuters

23:18

extent on a work in this area, and his

23:20

hunch was that he does right,

23:22

we're talking people Russian speaking

23:24

folks by enlarge your. Book Cause fatal

23:26

system error, which is sort of deep dive

23:28

into the Russian hacking scene, and much

23:30

of it as you'd expect, you know, young guys

23:33

early Twenties Kind. Of grubby by and

23:35

large, they do not live lavish lifestyle,

23:37

there are guys at the top of these criminal

23:39

organizations that are very flashy.

23:44

The it they're like sort of pop icon,

23:47

some of them in same way that Rap stars

23:49

harm us there's a hacker

23:51

magazine neutrinos as good as

23:53

guys with the sports cars and supermodels

23:56

and whatever you know on.

23:59

services

24:00

Discord between the morning those are the guys will

24:02

farrow the twenty year olds they hired a twenty year olds

24:04

are their franchises and he says the twenty

24:06

year old runs Nurse's. office

24:08

parks yeah it's like call center type

24:11

of atmosphere so i Is there like kiddo?

24:13

That's pretty sure Kelsey Padgett. Even in

24:16

a cubicle. The computer

24:18

board.

24:19

There is a meeting later with Judy in

24:21

HR and he's mad about it. Is

24:23

that the kind of like environment that these

24:25

people are and?

24:26

I put in for the most part, think so, yes, the

24:28

larger point is that it's not just like you're a

24:30

lone wolf pimply faced hacker. The

24:33

more is cybercrime is now super

24:35

organize, it is often corporate,

24:38

it is big business. Then. Whole

24:40

sort of economy seems to

24:42

revolve around the secrets sites

24:45

where people come together to buy and sell things

24:47

like that ransom were from or less story

24:49

urges underground Web forums. The

24:51

and there's righty, some are veiled you

24:53

can reach on the open internet, the

24:55

more impressive ones are password

24:58

protected, you know, you have to know somebody to

25:00

get. In the really says

25:02

he once you have to have couple of people

25:04

vouch for you.

25:05

You actually have to apply with your resume, your hacker's

25:07

resume here are the things I can bring, these

25:09

are the kinds of hacking exploits that I've had

25:11

and therefore should be part. If your exclusive

25:14

club.

25:17

That's the A Temple Rest and NPR Cybercrime

25:19

corresponded she's been tracking the government's

25:21

attempt to shut down some of these sites, which

25:23

she describes as.

25:24

Silver hackers, the black market bizarre,

25:27

so let's say someone is looking for a bunch

25:29

credit card numbers that have been stolen, you can

25:31

get it.

25:32

There's one price if they're Mastercard

25:34

gold and another price for you know higher

25:36

level credit, whatever.

25:37

Say a he wanted to know about

25:39

boss or an employee or girl

25:41

for.

25:42

You can get this piece of software that allows you to turn on

25:44

their phone at any time, the. You to basically eavesdrop

25:46

on them because you're in the pocket.

25:48

And for three hundred dollars a month you

25:51

would actually get customers, sir.

25:52

And the prices actually keep coming down, it's a very,

25:55

very evolved fluid

25:57

marketplace, there's feedback and

25:59

there's no. Though. There are feed that worms

26:01

cool, as was that thief was not really

26:03

does that I didn't do the thief,

26:06

the robbery right absolutely perfectly for

26:08

something you'll see it a. Lot for on freshness

26:10

of credit cards, does you know it's easy

26:12

to say ya hear ten thousand credit card numbers,

26:15

but if their credit card numbers have been out for A?

26:17

While and get declined everybody, you've just

26:19

wasted your money and these people called Rippers

26:21

Eyes and they're ripping you off and

26:23

they will get banned from the form wow so

26:25

it's. Reputation or just like everywhere else, yeah,

26:28

and it's as good as e bay if you feel

26:30

safe doing business on bay there's

26:32

no reason you shouldn't feel safe doing. Business with the

26:34

criminal.

26:35

Now are all of this to me frankly

26:37

felt like to sexy hacker talk until

26:40

a couple of months ago dentists are telling

26:42

us about this one particular site, actually the biggest

26:45

of these kinds of sites is out there, it's cold

26:47

dark code.

26:48

Yeah, the way it has been described by

26:50

law enforcement is sort of an Amazon dot.com

26:52

com for hackers.

26:53

Actually, you're specifically how US Attorney David

26:55

Hicks and describes her in an interview or

26:57

Dark Road is the largest

26:59

English speaking criminal

27:01

cybercrime for him in the world.

27:04

One a, I think most people know silk

27:06

road, and they know, for example, you could get a contract

27:08

hit on of from silk road and drugs

27:10

and guns and everything else, so would it be

27:13

right for me to say that this is sort of silk

27:15

road?

27:15

For hackers yeah when want to draw that direct

27:17

comparison I think it's probably accurate

27:19

would say that all measure of cyber crime

27:22

that you see and watch around.

27:24

the world was in some form or fashion connected

27:26

to

27:28

So we got really interested in this world of the site

27:30

dark coat in the people in it and so

27:32

with Dina we started calling around

27:35

trying to find anyone that would talk and.

27:37

after we'd searching and calling and lawyering

27:39

we sound a guy who agreed to go

27:41

on the record my name is daniel play six

27:44

and i'm and reformed hacker

27:48

The towards we know Dan has never talked about

27:50

this publicly. So how did you get

27:52

involved?

27:52

The dark well, I was one

27:54

of the people who created it. Very

27:58

long time ago. Then. Your

28:00

story begins not in Russia, but in Milwaukee,

28:02

sure we'll let me start with little bit, can't

28:04

small middle class suburb right outside

28:07

of Milwaukee, your brothers and sisters, two

28:09

younger. Brothers and two younger sisters, big

28:11

family to you, have to share rooms with them

28:13

or were you in your own little kingdom, shared

28:16

a room with both my brothers for. A lot of years

28:18

second sort of plays into the story, Disease has

28:21

where he would do to sort of escape

28:23

his go to the basement and play video games,

28:25

so yes. Then the stereotypical

28:27

hacker in his parent's basement, I know know.

28:31

Quite hilarious again, says

28:34

his hacking began innocently enough when would

28:36

monkey with games like Age of Empires

28:38

I'd change the graphics change the

28:40

artificial intelligence the game the way it plays,

28:43

we work to create new maps that type of.

28:45

saying something i enjoyed

28:50

Then slowly, I throw my teenagers

28:52

that developed into something more.

28:57

You are. "The not get along well

28:59

with a lot of my peers and

29:01

in grade in middle school, so I

29:04

spent on" A lot

29:06

more time, you know, on the computer and

29:08

a myself than I did, I'm socially

29:10

at least at that age.

29:12

And he says one day he was in a chatroom

29:14

Internet chat rooms called Game Search

29:17

talking with bunch of the people of video games and

29:19

dumb at some point along the way

29:21

he meets this guy you know this for this particular

29:24

guy was into, you know, botnets

29:27

oh. yes botnets we all try yes

29:29

it is just remind just of what

29:32

what's going on there five meds are you know

29:34

malware viruses installed on computers

29:37

and dumb botnets in our the way

29:39

to centrally control centrally whole lot

29:41

of infected computers desert to

29:43

put this in context for things that exist only

29:45

fastenings joseph men says this whole

29:47

bot net situation started

29:50

with spam one of the easiest

29:52

ways to make money on the internet back

29:54

three two thousand of was

29:56

spam as in my penis extensions

29:59

and i'm in iraq

30:00

Be and all that stuff what happened was

30:02

that the in the Olden days most

30:04

servers, mail servers or acted

30:06

as open relays, meaning the mail people

30:08

wouldn't really pay attention to who was sending was.

30:11

To the spammers with spam with abandoned

30:14

and then spam got to be enough of a problem

30:16

is that the techies of the world decided

30:18

that's it they. started to block

30:20

people like if they found guy who they thought was

30:22

sending too many product emails or whatever

30:25

they would bless his ip address

30:27

so that he couldn't sending more male so

30:29

what's the spammers and their contractors

30:31

then needed to do was to have bunch

30:33

of clean ip addresses And

30:37

send spam from that, so what they did,

30:39

which is totally genius, totally evil, is

30:41

the higher too much programmers to create bunch of

30:43

viruses, disseminated those viruses

30:46

across the Internet people would. accidentally

30:48

clicker open something, get them onto their

30:51

the computer, and then suddenly

30:53

the spammers could not remote control

30:56

our computers. The distance

30:58

I really wanted from maybe just an hour tonight.

31:01

To. Send out there spam because these were clean

31:03

ip addresses, of course, what happened is

31:06

that once the spammers had these bought

31:08

this, they started thinking, "hey, I could do

31:10

something else" With us and the next thing

31:12

that came along with denial of service attacks, you

31:14

can have all of them tried to contact eBay,

31:16

dot.com com at the same time and.

31:18

Knock over eBay this first gentlemen that Iran

31:20

so he had about nuts of a well

31:22

over thousand computers, which,

31:25

you know, at the time was amazing to me, you know. By

31:27

today's standards of thousand for button that,

31:29

as is nothing now, they can get up into the millions

31:31

but I'm back, then it was quite incredible

31:33

to me and because. He says he was in this chat room, this

31:35

guy was there and this guy would get into fights

31:38

with people and anytime he did. Then. Point

31:40

is one thousand computer drone army

31:42

at that any and nephew man I'm going to knock

31:44

your internet offline, there's nothing you can do

31:46

about, you know, for was something and. A game

31:48

he could knock the game server that they were playing

31:51

on offline of stop their games

31:53

things like that, it's like he can take away year's

31:55

ball back in Nineteen. Thirty five,

31:58

that is exactly it takes you to.

32:00

Someone else's ball over the Internet, so this for

32:02

some reason intrigued use yes

32:04

was amazing to me, I'm like the you have control

32:06

the thousand computers wow.

32:09

You know how did you do this, you know, I

32:11

have at the time had never heard of button outside

32:13

and nobody is stuff like, how did you, how

32:16

did you get the software to do this, how did you get it

32:18

onto all these computers? He was quite

32:20

happy to tell you all that.

32:21

Oh, he certainly was this, this particular gentleman

32:23

now had a very large ego and

32:25

ended. See him as bad

32:27

guy.

32:29

Ah, man, to be honest, I think

32:31

at that age I. The

32:33

really. Think about it that

32:35

deeply it's the Internet it's a lot

32:38

harder to quantify,

32:41

right and wrong there I'm in now with me

32:43

as easy to look back then so yeah this wrong

32:45

but it's not like going up to someone and punching them

32:47

in the face there's no. human

32:50

connection there you don't see these people are feel

32:52

these people Then the

32:54

time it was the sheer curiosity. Who?

32:57

Says he asked this pied piper guy to

32:59

send him some with the bought software that made

33:02

the botnet go, and that really intrigued me

33:04

know digging to the source code trying. To understand

33:06

what is the thing doing, how does it work, how does text

33:09

this guy was good kotor like is it

33:11

really good at it was good at? It yet ah

33:14

no, no as out with the

33:16

you know in hindsight now our, you

33:18

know his what his would classify as classify script

33:21

kiddie you know someone. Who are?

33:25

you better off script

33:27

kiddies so script kiddie is

33:29

someone who has just enough

33:31

technical ability to can't

33:33

take some tools and software the other people

33:36

have created and just use them

33:38

Fast. Forward as, Dan

33:41

went the opposite direction of the script kiddies and

33:43

got better and better and things start

33:45

making the to spot nets they could literally

33:47

spy on people as. They were using their computers

33:50

interesting to see all the porn that people are watching that

33:52

have saying. he says

33:54

he found himself in another chatroom that

33:56

was called but talk And

33:58

up later, hackers swat. Bragg.

34:00

Like, hey, look what I did by deceased

34:02

this website, take a look, and he says one day he

34:04

was talking with coder friend of his guy named is there

34:06

to. We were talking and what are we

34:09

set up community where we

34:11

can really so to who gets the joint and

34:13

the went all the script, kiddies and idiots and

34:16

I? Actually chose the name I came up

34:18

with Santa nice lame name of,.

34:21

i should exist or the get a little and i am against

34:23

our code dark code it's dark really

34:25

are k o d c great seemed

34:27

cooler with the case from yes so

34:29

we chose the name and started getting the sights set

34:32

up the rules where it would be invite only see

34:34

had of an invite and each new person would be required

34:36

to demonstrate their skill he's a piece of software

34:38

that created or here's created video of my

34:41

botnet and action and at

34:43

some point some not too long after was created

34:45

it was decided for one reason for another that you

34:47

know hey we got all these for amazon here that's great

34:49

but they also want to be able to

34:52

sell some most of them making so

34:55

Let's. Invite some people who

34:57

would be willing to buy some of the stuff this

34:59

them against the sound like a fairy Sarah, I have

35:02

a burglar to vote, you have door.

35:05

You want to burgle and they are ready

35:07

to that's simplification but yes

35:09

people would post and say I'm.

35:12

looking to buy acts or

35:14

ears this piece of software i created here's all of

35:16

things it does you some screenshots

35:18

of inaction and here's the price could

35:20

be certain have certain botnet software

35:23

it could be buying a button that itself

35:25

you know if you don't want to build when yourself want to buys

35:28

one that somebody else already created and has going

35:30

to me i can get you wanted to hundred

35:32

thousand or twenty thousand computers

35:35

just give me a cheque guess what

35:37

they called them were installs insult

35:39

hey guys i've got installs and their

35:42

ten dollars per one thousand

35:44

Like that there's no,

35:48

this a me sort of surprising to as the when it comes to find

35:50

that says there's this whole rental market it's

35:52

frighteningly affordable yeah it's.

35:55

bargain basis in fact we were talking with one

35:57

reporter till he checks and higgins to

35:59

be exact

36:00

Better. Of Dark Reading Dot. com, which

36:02

is a cyber security new site and,

36:04

she told us you can actually rent bike that

36:06

if you really want it to you could. Rent bot

36:08

net for one hour for about thirty eight dollars

36:10

month and let's face it was, I was twenty yes

36:13

as low as twenty dollars month can. Rent a bot

36:15

net for twenty bucks month, you could it's

36:17

like renting space here you want to use this to go do

36:19

damage somewhere or you wanna make statement. Or

36:22

you have some plan for I do you want to send some spam here,

36:24

you go, you could go online right now

36:26

and probably find somewhere out there on the

36:28

net. Somebody who will sell you access

36:30

to computers for? sense

36:33

of peace and you feel like people's computers like

36:35

your computers my computer and dance as dark

36:37

code got bigger and bigger he began to see

36:40

more of this kind of activity on the site

36:42

like some guy and of a button out of five thousand computers

36:45

another guy would have some software like the ransomware

36:47

software guy within rent the button at guy one

36:50

install his ransomware ransom

36:52

these poor people then move on you know some of

36:54

the people were

36:56

You do some pretty unpleasant things, you know, moving

36:58

more into the can financial

37:00

crimes territory ounces. The

37:03

something that I really never had a desire

37:05

to be involved and.

37:06

It was largely because of that, he says, that in

37:08

two thousand and nine. The decided

37:10

to get out. That

37:12

importantly the next year I got a lovely

37:14

visit from the F B I They,

37:19

promptly earth with it's like

37:21

is kicked down your door type situation, they

37:23

knocked they knocked. sorry what

37:26

was that like pretty terrifying you

37:29

know what's gonna happen to me

37:31

what's gonna happen next and when did happen next

37:34

How much of that I can talk about,

37:36

but I'm did cooperate

37:38

with the government and have cooperated with them

37:40

for the last five plus years

37:42

now was a kick in the buds, you know my parents

37:45

saw. And kicked me out,

37:47

know that kicked me out per turn. This

37:50

to me with rapid move out think,

37:53

that, I've

37:55

been living on my own since San and. i

37:59

became games Employed had a

38:01

few jobs I'm became,

38:03

little bit more and more serious with my

38:06

then girlfriend who is now my wife

38:08

so. i'm you know

38:10

it's given me an opportunity over the last five years to

38:12

really make some serious changes to my life

38:17

Meanwhile, over the same five years, dark coat

38:19

grew into this massive. Cyber.

38:23

Criminals swap meet where

38:25

tens of thousands of stolen social security

38:27

numbers were bought and sold huge database

38:30

that personal information and emails were bought and sold

38:32

malware and software various kinds. Are bought

38:34

and sold and discontinued going

38:36

to the temple rest right up until July

38:39

fifteenth.

38:40

This year, July fifteenth, two thousand fifteen

38:42

today marks a milestone in our efforts

38:44

to bring to justice some of the most significant

38:47

cybercriminals in the world.

38:48

What ended up happening on July sixteenth

38:50

is that the F. B. I actually got me into

38:53

dark home with a number of intelligence

38:55

services from around the world and they had an

38:57

eighteen month investigation in

38:59

which they took down in the end

39:01

and twenty eight.

39:02

People the F B I has effectively

39:05

smash the Hornet's nest and

39:07

we're in the process of rounding up

39:10

and, charging the hornets said his

39:12

The amazing race or they take down more.

39:15

than two dozen people Two weeks later

39:19

Dakota's, up again. papa

39:22

just pop back up

39:31

Then.

39:34

A. Deep gratitude to NPR is Dina Tempo

39:36

Rest and who's reporting really got us going

39:39

on this whole project and props to Kelsey

39:41

Paget pretty surfer segment any males

39:43

who produced A. Second segment thanks also to and

39:45

resolve Michael Shambles gone through

39:47

Omen when Levy Coffee Rotor Kathy

39:49

to don't forget attorney David the car

39:51

and the whole crew at the Microsoft Cyber. Crimes unit

39:54

and t Robert thinking of you worry me

39:56

because you're part of my bought new cause of.

39:59

data They recovered, thanks for listening.

40:02

Hello, this is Michelle from Kaka Alcohol

40:04

Hawaii Radiolab is supported

40:06

in part by the Alfred P. Sloan

40:08

Foundation, enhancing public

40:11

understanding of science and technology

40:13

in the modern world, more information

40:15

about Sloan at www.Dot

40:18

Loan loan dot org mahalo

40:22

Saints reporting on radio lab is supported in

40:24

part by Science Sandbox, he's

40:26

Simon's Foundation initiative dedicated to

40:28

engaging everyone with the process of science.

40:32

Then. Radio Lab was created by Data Boom

40:34

Rod and is edited the thorn we were losing,

40:37

Miller and losses Nasr or Cohost

40:39

says he left and birth to their executive producer.

40:42

And doing case it or director silence on,

40:45

for stuff includes Simon Adler

40:47

German blown by for prefer for you

40:49

to six have you heard Fortuna David

40:52

Gable many of us. And yet as

40:54

synonym some than, them filthy

40:57

any to and Alex Neeson of

40:59

hurry and whacked out

41:01

Walters and Mauling. that sir with

41:03

help from tanya travel and sarah hombach

41:06

And fact checkers.

41:29

Hey. It's a lot the media lab is supported by

41:31

New Scientist, the weekly magazine filled

41:33

with new ideas and scientific discoveries

41:35

about health and well-being, our planet

41:37

and the universe, it's never. Been more important

41:40

to understand are changing world and how science can help

41:42

guide us each week, new scientist

41:44

make sense of the latest developments and

41:46

most intriguing curiosities with Clear

41:48

An. Incisive reporting. In new scientist,

41:51

the world better understood the. More

41:54

at New Scientist Dot. com or by downloading

41:56

the new scientist out.