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need Indeed. Radio to view. From

1:50

PRX's Radio Topia. This

1:57

is Radio Diaries. I'm Joe Richmond. 50

2:03

years ago radio broadcaster Studs Trigall

2:05

published a book called Working. People

2:08

talk about what they do all day and how they feel

2:10

about what they do. That

2:12

book has been kind of like a storytelling Bible to

2:14

me. Studs went

2:16

around the country with a tape recorder

2:18

and had conversations with ordinary Americans about

2:20

their jobs. How would you describe

2:23

your work? I'm a processing plant. I'm

2:25

a carpenter from South Carolina. I'm running

2:27

an elevator. What are you doing? I

2:29

am the last live entertainment of the

2:31

Sherman Hotel. But he didn't

2:33

just ask what they did for a living. He

2:35

also asked about how they felt about it. The

2:38

mundane realities, the things that kept them

2:40

going or made them walk away. The

2:43

book ended up being an unexpected bestseller. For

2:49

a time the recordings of these interviews

2:51

went unheard, packed away in cassettes in

2:53

Studs Home. But back in

2:55

2015, we along with our collaborator

2:57

Jane Sacks at Project And were

2:59

given access to the original raw

3:01

interviews. We also tracked down

3:03

some of the people Studs had interviewed and

3:06

we made a series called Working Then and

3:08

Now. 50

3:10

years after the book came out, it's interesting

3:12

how much some jobs have changed and

3:14

how some have disappeared entirely. In

3:17

our first story, Studs interviews a

3:19

telephone switchboard operator in Waukegan, Illinois.

3:23

I'm talking to Sharon Griggins.

3:26

You're about 17 going 18. And

3:30

you work for Illinois Bell. Oh yeah. My

3:33

bell. See, when you dial the operator, that's

3:35

what you get. You get someone like me. When

3:38

you dial all the time. Oh, when they dial, oh, we

3:40

get you. That's it. Because

3:43

this is the only telephone office in

3:45

Waukegan. Could you describe it?

3:48

So it's a

3:50

big, long room, about half the size

3:52

of the gymnasium, I would say. And down

3:55

both sides, there's a whole row of switchboards.

3:58

How close is the girl sitting next to you? Very

4:02

close. I would say she'd

4:04

be sitting not even five or six inches away from

4:06

me. Is that cramped? Yeah,

4:09

we're cramped. So now

4:11

describe it step by step as though you were

4:13

telling a little child what it is. Okay,

4:15

now first of all, in front of

4:17

you, you've got about seven pairs of

4:19

cords and all these lights that tell

4:22

you where the clouds are coming from. When

4:24

a light goes on, it means there's someone waiting there and you plug

4:26

in and you ask them what they want. Do

4:29

your arms get tired? No. Your

4:32

mouth gets tired. It's the strangest. You get

4:35

tired of talking. You've been talking

4:37

for so long because you talk constantly

4:39

for six hours and

4:41

it's hard. Keep going on this

4:43

point. Well, you get to

4:46

feel just like a machine because essentially you're

4:48

on this level of about seven

4:51

or eight phrases that you use. And

4:53

like what? You say,

4:56

good morning may help you, operator may

4:58

help you, what

5:00

number did you want? I have

5:02

a collect call for you from so and so,

5:04

will you accept the charge? Something like that. You

5:07

said it's pretty hard. It is because

5:09

what you're doing is like monotonous

5:11

work. But for me,

5:13

it's a great temptation to talk. Like

5:16

when I'm bored, I make some little

5:18

comments or something or I talk with

5:20

a Southern accent or Puerto Rican accent.

5:23

You try and make your voice really sexy and just see

5:25

what kind of reaction. Well, your heart's around. Yeah, I

5:27

do. But if you get

5:29

caught talking with a customer, that's

5:32

one mark against you. Well,

5:34

because the company says you can't get too personal.

5:37

Yeah, you can't. You know, some

5:39

people, they'll say, operator, I'm lonesome. Will you

5:41

talk to me? People do say that?

5:43

Really? They say, I'm lonesome. Will you

5:45

talk to me? What happened? I said,

5:47

see, I'm sorry. I really can't. But

5:50

you can't. You're

5:52

doing a great deal of talking, but the

5:54

talk has nothing to do with actual human

5:56

communication. Right. That's

5:58

very true. It's

6:00

not really a lonely profession or anything, but

6:03

it's one where you not a whole lot of communication even

6:05

though that is your job. Sharon,

6:08

you're quite marvelous. Do

6:10

you see yourself as a telephone operator for the rest

6:12

of your life? No,

6:14

no, no, no, never,

6:16

never. I

6:20

did not become a career telephone

6:23

operator. My name is

6:25

Sharon Griggins. Back

6:27

in 1972, I was

6:29

a telephone operator in Studs-Turkles

6:32

working. You know,

6:34

I really remember working there very

6:36

vividly, and I don't know, maybe that job

6:38

helped me develop a keener

6:41

ear for what

6:43

people need and what people want. I

6:46

think I became a really good listener,

6:49

but let's get real. I

6:52

don't think there's much romance in

6:54

the work of a telephone operator. I

6:57

think about some poor person at the end

6:59

of that line who's sitting in a cubicle

7:01

somewhere saying the same things, taking

7:04

down the same numbers for eight hours a day.

7:07

You know, automation is great

7:10

in today's world, but it's

7:12

hard to automate everybody's

7:15

wishes and wants. I

7:17

mean, we've all had those situations where all

7:19

you want to do is

7:22

talk to somebody, and all you have

7:24

is a list of menu options. You

7:28

know, I still tell my kids, just

7:30

always pick zero. Do

7:33

you feel a machine did replace you one day

7:36

soon? Oh, sure. Sure.

7:39

You have to be some machine, though, because the

7:42

people knew how funnily

7:44

they talked, how badly

7:46

they pronunciate, how hard it is

7:48

to understand some people. I

7:51

mean, she would have a hard time. If

8:00

you pick up a copy of the book, Sharon

8:02

appears under the pseudonym Heather Lam. She's

8:05

now the director of communications at the Seattle Public

8:07

Library Foundation. Studs

8:09

didn't just ask people to describe what they did for a living.

8:12

He asked them how they felt about it. It

8:15

was boring monotonous work. I don't give a

8:17

shit what anybody says. It was boring and

8:19

monotonous to work on an assembly line. That's

8:22

Gary Briner. He was 29 when Studs interviewed

8:24

him at an auto factory in Ohio.

8:28

I'm somewhere between

8:30

Youngstown and Warren, Ohio. It's

8:33

an industrial area, steel, automobiles.

8:35

Talking to Gary Briner. Gary

8:38

Briner is the president of local

8:40

1114 United Auto Workers. No,

8:43

1124. What

8:49

sort of plant is this? It's

8:52

the General Motors Vega plant in the West Town.

8:54

It's the most automated plant in the world, isn't it?

8:58

It's the fastest line speed in the world. They've

9:01

got the most modern equipment, the

9:03

Unimates. They've got 22 in

9:06

a row, 11 on each side of the line. Can you

9:08

describe the Unimates? It looks like a

9:10

row, but you know, it reminds me

9:12

of a praying mantis. When

9:15

they took the Unimates on, we were building

9:17

60 an hour prior to the Unimates. When

9:19

we came back to work with the Unimates, we were building 101

9:21

cars per hour. See,

9:25

they never tire, they never

9:27

sweat, they never complain, they never

9:29

miss work. They're always there.

9:32

Yeah. So what happened to the guys in the plant

9:34

that were working there now? It's

9:36

a funny thing, you know, when they revamped the plant,

9:39

they tried to take every movement out of the guy's

9:41

day so that he could conserve seconds in

9:44

time so that they could make

9:46

him more efficient, more productive. Is

9:48

the assembly line approach dependent upon the fact

9:50

each guy is exactly like the other guy?

9:52

Right. GM's reason for trying to

9:55

be more efficient is that they could take

9:57

one second and save a second

9:59

on each guy. effort they would over a

10:01

year make a million dollars. One

10:04

second. That's right. You know

10:06

they used the stopwatch and

10:08

they say look we know from experience that

10:10

it takes so many seconds to walk from

10:12

here to there. We know that it

10:14

takes so many seconds to shoot that screw. We

10:16

know the gun turns so fast and the screw

10:18

is so long and the hole is so deep.

10:20

We know how long it takes and that's what

10:22

that guy's gonna do and our

10:25

argument has always been you know that's

10:27

mechanical that's not human. Look

10:30

we tire, we sweat, we have

10:32

hangovers, we have upset stomachs,

10:34

we have feelings of emotions and we're

10:37

not about to be placed in a category of

10:39

a machine. This is something

10:41

new isn't it? The workers in the plant

10:43

they feel they have a right in

10:46

determining the nature of their work to

10:48

the working men. We

10:50

do now we have

10:53

some kind of pride being able

10:55

to stand up to the giant General Motors

10:57

Corporation and say look this

10:59

is what I think is fair and I'm

11:01

willing to fight to show you that it's fair. I

11:04

just think they want to be able to

11:06

be treated with dignity and some respect and

11:09

you know that's not asking

11:11

a hell of a lot. Yeah.

11:16

Well it takes me back. I'm

11:20

Gary Briner, retired to have

11:22

been for 11 years. I

11:25

didn't plan to be a union guy. I

11:27

just wandered into it. In 1966 through

11:29

75 maybe

11:34

later the company and

11:36

the union were bitter enemies. Every

11:40

gain we made usually

11:42

came out of a strike and that's just

11:44

the way it was. But

11:46

the job of the union today is much

11:49

tougher than it was for me in 1970

11:51

because the strength of the

11:53

union has been so weakened and

11:56

look the union's not perfect. I'd be the first

11:58

to say it. But what

12:00

we did in the union is to

12:02

create this middle class that

12:05

we're able to do things, enjoy their

12:07

life outside of work. And

12:10

I worry about these things that we're

12:12

losing. But

12:15

listen, you gotta have a job.

12:17

No matter what it is, you gotta have a job.

12:20

It's one of those things that must be.

12:23

Picking it up with Gary. You

12:26

feel this is the shape of things to come? I

12:29

hope that it is, because I

12:31

think what we're doing is right. You

12:33

know, we're putting humans before

12:36

profits, and I think

12:38

that's necessary. I think if it

12:40

isn't that way in other places, it should be. Gary

12:45

Briner, interviewed by Studs Turkel in the early 1970s.

12:49

Sometimes, Studs interviewed people at the end of

12:51

their careers, looking back on their lives, trying

12:53

to make sense of what they'd accomplished. Eddie

12:57

Jaffe was a New York press agent,

12:59

legendary for pulling quirky publicity stunts on

13:01

behalf of his clients. He

13:03

was a small, wiry man who loved to tell

13:05

stories. As you listen to Studs'

13:07

interview with Jaffe, you'll notice Studs barely gets a word

13:10

in. So how many years

13:12

have you been appreciated roughly? Well, you

13:14

know, I started 32 years ago, and

13:18

in the course of the years, I did everything,

13:21

from strippers to a thing called

13:23

roller derby, hell on wheels, from

13:25

gangsters to Billy Graham. Really?

13:28

Gangsters to Billy Graham? Yeah. You handle both?

13:30

Yeah. But don't forget, Studs,

13:32

that I spent most of my life learning techniques

13:35

that are no value anymore. What does

13:37

that mean? A client would come to me

13:39

and say, I want to be a star, get me attention,

13:42

and maybe I'd get her in Life magazine.

13:44

Today, she can go on a Carson show, if

13:47

she can get on there, and get more attention

13:49

than I could have gotten in a year. And

13:52

this has helped destroy press agent re-ents.

13:54

We knew it. Well,

13:56

in these 30 years of being quite

13:58

an imaginative press agent. you feel

14:00

you've done meaningful work? Well,

14:05

there was a physical kick out of seeing things

14:07

you're responsible for in the papers. But

14:10

being a publicity man is

14:12

a confession of weakness in a way.

14:15

In other words, it's for people who don't have

14:17

the guts to try to get attention for

14:19

themselves. You spend your

14:22

whole life telling the world how great somebody

14:24

else is. And this is

14:26

a frustrating thing. Your

14:29

imagination, you know, the idea is you have to feel it

14:31

could have been used some other way. Oh, sure. I

14:35

mean, almost everybody, I think,

14:37

looks back on their life and

14:40

says, I wasted it. And

14:43

being a press agent gives you a far greater

14:45

opportunity to do this than

14:47

almost any other occupation. You

14:49

know? I'll talk about it. No, I'll be right.

14:52

Eddie, it's okay. Eddie

14:55

Jaffe, interviewed by Stes Terkel in the early 1970s.

14:59

Jaffe died in 2003 at the age of 89. And

15:02

his obit in New York Times referred to

15:04

him as the last of a breed that

15:06

do anything luck in the ring press agent.

15:19

One interesting thing about these working tapes is

15:22

that Stes never intended them to be broadcast. And

15:25

the book Stes mostly edited himself out. But

15:27

when you listen to the raw interviews, you get a sense

15:29

of the man behind the microphone. You

15:32

can also hear how Stes was a bit of a technical

15:34

klutz. There's

15:36

feedback, bad microphone placement, sometimes

15:39

the mic bumps up against things. There

15:41

are even a few times when Stes asked the person he's

15:43

interviewing for help figuring out a problem with the tape recorder.

15:45

Let me just see, I want to test this. He's very

15:48

strong. I wonder why it's so strong. But here's the thing.

15:50

Stes used all of this to his advantage. He

15:55

would sometimes ham it up or even fake a problem

15:57

with his recorder. He said

15:59

it was an equalizer. If the person he

16:01

was interviewing helped him with the equipment, it was like they

16:03

were in it together. Stud said

16:05

it made that person feel needed. It's

16:08

way loud, isn't it? Yeah, I've got it

16:10

now. You

16:12

were saying? Most of Stud's interviews

16:14

were planned well in advance, but one

16:16

morning he was in a taxi on the way to

16:18

the airport in Youngstown, Ohio. The

16:20

driver was a woman named Helen Mogh, grandmother

16:22

of five. They began talking

16:24

and Stud quickly pulled out his tape recorder

16:26

and microphone and began recording. Oh,

16:29

I see him in

16:31

the car, that's

16:33

why. It's

16:36

okay, it's about

16:39

six o'clock, early morning. I'm

16:42

riding with Mrs. Mogh, Ms. Helen Mogh,

16:44

who's a limo driver. One

16:47

of several drivers for this company. Yes, I

16:49

am. Now, I was thinking as we're

16:51

heading now toward the airport in Youngstown, that son's fantastic was he part

16:53

of the Red, don't we? Yes,

16:58

he is. That's something that an artist can't catch. How long have

17:00

you been doing this work?

17:02

Well, I've been doing it for a couple of years. The

17:06

work day seemed long before the day went up. I was going to work in

17:09

a row, and I had to get my car

17:22

back. Did the day seem long? Surprisingly,

17:25

not as long as you would think.

17:28

First of all, I love to drive.

17:32

And secondly, you meet

17:34

people from all walks of life. And

17:38

many people have problems, but

17:40

oftentimes it's good to know they can talk to

17:42

someone who's a total stranger to them. They

17:45

have a habit of fighting in that person

17:48

because they feel that they'll never see the person.

17:53

So a lot of your passengers tell you things. Oh,

17:56

yes. Fighting people. Like,

18:00

really? Yeah. Before

18:03

I pay you for the cab,

18:05

could you do this, describe a day,

18:07

the moment you get up in the morning, could

18:09

you do that, you know? At what time would

18:11

you say get up in the morning, usually? Well,

18:14

like this morning I was up at five, because

18:18

I had an early morning pick up at six. So

18:21

I came out, I

18:24

say a beautiful sky and a beautiful sun, so

18:27

I know I have a good day ahead of me. And

18:31

you worked from about five till when?

18:34

When would you get home? Well, if I'm

18:36

lucky, I'll be home by 12.30. At

18:39

night? Mm-hmm. So there's a good,

18:42

that's about 19 hours right there, isn't

18:45

it? Something like that today. When

18:47

I don't have an early morning pick up, I can average out

18:49

around 12 hours. You

18:52

look forward to retirement. No,

18:56

I'm scared of it. I

18:59

don't feel retirement is exactly the best of things

19:01

for people. They,

19:03

when you retire, you start to go into a

19:06

shell, and you're

19:08

like the forgotten person. You

19:11

get bogged down in nothing, and you do nothing, and

19:13

you wind up nothing. Yeah,

19:16

that's interesting. So here you put in

19:19

a minimum of 12 hours a day. Right. Seven

19:21

days a week. Right, oh yeah. But

19:24

you'd feel more tired. If

19:26

I didn't. This

19:28

is true, because when I'm not busy, I

19:30

get very wary. So

19:32

if I was to retire with nothing to

19:34

do, I don't

19:36

think I could stand it. It's work,

19:39

though, but you see, work

19:41

is the prime part of your

19:43

life. Work? Yes, very much so. I

19:46

think everything hinges on it, and doing a good job

19:48

on it. Because I'm a firm

19:50

believer, if you're going to do something, do it to the best

19:52

of your ability, or don't do it at all. I

19:55

Know you think a time will come, though, with

19:58

automation, more and more machines, that. The

20:00

hours will be shorter and shorter.

20:02

People have tremendous leisure time. I'm

20:05

afraid they well I'm afraid does not have

20:07

for the best interest. Idle

20:10

hands like and I don't mind. And

20:13

I'm not and savor the short

20:16

hours. I think eight hours? fine.

20:18

but like you say, Automation.

20:21

Well. Cat work down here also get a

20:23

lot of jobs down. And

20:26

ironical here. not too long. Ago

20:28

regarding the future. And.

20:31

That's a good. also. increase

20:34

employment. Unless I can

20:36

come up with something else that would the

20:38

late for more employment bowl which. Who

20:40

knows what could be. Coming

20:43

back to question of work as of work

20:46

and life is it to connected don't have

20:48

very much southwards and they were found in.

20:52

That's where the hours and go first for

20:54

you. I would say yes. And

20:57

pay for interesting. Now

20:59

question. And

21:01

when people say thank you. For.

21:06

Helping them. And you don't

21:08

even know how you have helped him. It really

21:10

makes you feel nice and. And

21:13

I don't think there's a thing could take it's place.

21:17

You look forward to each day. I do.

21:22

I do because I never know what's gonna happen next

21:24

day. As always,

21:26

interesting to find out if you don't go

21:28

out. There. You're not going to find out by sitting

21:30

home. Studs.

21:35

Terkel was taxi drivers Helen Mod.

21:38

Stood. Had a thing for interviews people in cars.

21:40

Will. Be no Palm A was a car. Had to. Read.

21:43

Much cooler way of saying attended.

21:46

The. Listen closely. You can hear the sound

21:48

of two guys in a car smoking

21:50

cigars. I'm sitting in a

21:52

car with a car hiker love on our

21:54

Tommy's been hiking cars for twenty five Thirty

21:57

years. It's on swab as you may ambulance

21:59

gonna slack. lot and we're

22:01

sitting in the car puffing some 15 cents a guy's

22:03

and he's talking. I'm

22:30

looking myself up and braced from the wheel but

22:32

I never missed that hole. Way by

22:34

the hole. And me and her backing in the stall like

22:36

that. In the stall. In the stall.

22:38

One swing air they used to call it.

22:41

One swing love and air because I

22:43

got the car judged a certain

22:45

distance to make that one swing. When you

22:48

can do just driving the head without. Just

22:50

one hand, no two hands. Always have my

22:52

head inside the car looking from the back

22:54

view mirror. Look backwards. Look backwards. I

22:57

never put my head this way. That's right. When

22:59

I'm replaced. So we would do that with one

23:01

swing. One swing. And that was kind of an

23:04

art. I never missed. One

23:06

swing love and air from 401 South

23:08

War Bash. I'm

23:10

known from the Peking to the Hong

23:12

Kong to the West Coast to the

23:15

Paco. Love and Al Palmier. One

23:20

swing love and al. Stes

23:22

recorded more than 130 interviews for his

23:24

buck working. Some, honestly,

23:27

are duds. And

23:29

some almost feel like accidental works of art. Here

23:32

at Radio Diaries, one of our favorites is this interview

23:34

with a private of A in Brooklyn. I'm

23:37

seated somewhere in Brooklyn, home

23:39

of Anthony Rogiero and

23:41

his wife, a very delightful boy. So this

23:43

is a book about work. Jobs people do.

23:45

How would you describe your work? Let's

23:48

see. How would I describe my wife? 90% of

23:52

the job is the ability to

23:54

move around to different places without

23:56

causing any suspicion. And... I've

23:58

got an edit. Oh, she's got an edit. No, I'm

24:01

just thinking like they usually put him in a

24:03

job where he has the most mobility. Right,

24:05

yeah. And you gotta be a quick talker.

24:08

Any private investigator, any private detective, he

24:10

has one thing and one thing only

24:12

and that is his wits. He

24:14

can't pull a badge out in a bind

24:16

and say, hey, police department, no, he can't use a

24:19

gun. No,

24:21

no, you never carry a gun. I'd like

24:23

to. A lot of times I'm gonna wish I had a gun. Yeah,

24:25

really? But, you know, you

24:27

ain't got a gun, you ain't got a badge,

24:29

you gotta be slick. Seriously, you gotta be a

24:31

bullshit. Undercurrent investigators are the

24:33

greatest actors in the world, you gotta

24:35

be. Yeah. But cutting back to

24:38

the nature of the work you do. Or

24:40

what, for example? Okay, for

24:42

instance, the butter

24:44

business. What we are supposed

24:47

to uncover there. A theft. They

24:49

had a theft of butter in the

24:51

bread factory. It sounds ridiculous, but it ran

24:53

into quite a bit of money. 70

24:56

pound, cartons of butter were being swiped on an average

24:58

of once a week. And this was going on for

25:00

six months to a year, which amounted to something like

25:02

$4,000, $5,000. So

25:05

they sent me in there and I got a

25:07

job as a mixer. I was a dough mixer. So

25:11

I had a week to bust this case. And

25:14

what happened was I found a

25:17

homemade knife stashed away in one of

25:19

the closets with butter stains on

25:21

it. We knew

25:23

the butter was being taken out of the refrigerator. So

25:26

what I did was I stationed myself on top of

25:28

the refrigerator, which was a completely darkened room.

25:31

And I stayed up there for four days, eight

25:33

hour shifts. What were

25:35

your feelings when you were seated on top of

25:37

the refrigerator at eight hours, you say? Eight hours,

25:40

right. Did you have a need to go to the toilet?

25:43

No. Whatever I had to do, I did

25:45

before I went up there. So what did

25:48

you do during the eight hours? Smoke,

25:50

worked out the window, keeping this place on a

25:52

constant surveillance. I knew who came in, who went

25:54

out, I knew the times. Nobody saw you on

25:56

that. Nobody saw me. And

25:58

then this one particular Friday, The night. Becomes.

26:03

A clean up man so he calms

26:05

opens up taste the butter and then

26:07

he left the area I went down

26:09

I checked it out it was butter.

26:12

And called up my supervisor this one

26:14

two o'clock on a more as as

26:16

our yada yada cases are Will Smith.

26:19

Don't like a novel? So

26:22

does this job sect your

26:24

outlook outside the job at

26:26

life. As a matter of

26:28

fact, I. Think this job is

26:30

done more. saw me as far as

26:32

understanding Paypal it's design and before. You.

26:35

Making the discovery about human beings

26:38

to. Thin. Basically everybody's the

26:40

same. As. My discover. Why?

26:43

Does a price and still. In Alpha

26:45

Guy steals a loaf of bread because he's

26:47

got to choose Hungry you policemen. A decent

26:49

meal is deeper than era thief's. Music

26:52

The job then makes you more tolerant

26:54

of people's frailty, However, how you spend

26:56

my time I think Salonika. He

26:59

came along like flaming already made in

27:01

our society. Is she's implying out of

27:03

five gets you're right that you didn't

27:05

have this feeling as if. You're used

27:07

to put people in category said. No

27:10

was. Shades. Of things

27:12

that they've either black or white hill

27:14

and that was it. And I

27:17

think his commanders. Yeah

27:19

well he finds out that people on

27:21

with that bears really? Loves

27:23

what you read the paper. basically people on

27:26

a deathbed. The. Pretty good.

27:29

Will. End with this isn't scrape. Private.

27:33

Eye Thomas for said he and his wife cat. And.

27:35

Be busted circle for his book working.

27:39

For said he is now retired and what's New

27:41

Jersey? They did pick up a copy of the

27:43

Bucket Story is under the pseudonym company Were Gero.

27:45

You. Know he had to keep a low profile. Going.

27:49

To all these tapes from the nineteen seventies

27:51

assassin into your how different things were back

27:53

then. Unions were powerful.

27:56

he talked to natural operator and make a long

27:58

distance phone call and private into. investigators didn't

28:00

have Google. But the interview

28:02

that really struck me the most wasn't about how

28:04

much had changed over the past four decades, but

28:06

how much hasn't. This is

28:09

the story of Renault Robinson, a Chicago police

28:11

officer and one of the founders of the

28:13

Afro-American Patrolmen's League. I'm

28:15

talking with Renault Robinson, and I'm

28:18

thinking, Renault, why did you become

28:20

a policeman? Well,

28:22

a policeman is looked upon in the

28:24

black community as an important thing. Even

28:27

though people are afraid of, more people have

28:29

bad thoughts about him, the

28:31

position itself is still one of importance.

28:34

I quit a job paying more money

28:36

to become a police officer. And

28:42

sometimes I wonder if that was the best decision

28:45

we made. Could

28:47

you describe your day, the day of

28:49

a police for the uniform? Well,

28:52

first of all, you're given an assignment and

28:54

a partner. Most of the white

28:56

guys are wondering what black they're going to get today. And

28:59

the black guys are wondering the same thing. Which one of these

29:02

fools am I going to get today? The

29:05

black cop is saying the only reason I'm with

29:07

this white cop is because they want to protect

29:09

his life while he's riding around in the black

29:11

community to ward off the bullets. And

29:14

so, you know, there's hard feelings on both sides. Well,

29:17

what happens then during these eight hours? You're

29:19

sitting with this white guy. Say

29:21

nothing to each other at all. Can you

29:23

imagine that for eight hours? Well,

29:25

there's no conversation. Very little

29:27

or none. Very little or none.

29:31

Got told, studs exactly what the

29:34

situation was. My

29:36

name is Renault Robinson. And when

29:40

I first started on the police department, I

29:42

went in there to do the best job

29:44

I could as a policeman. But

29:46

that became very difficult once I

29:49

realized what the true circumstances were.

29:52

What led to your disenchanting? I

29:54

Think it was just seeing blacks being treated

29:57

one way and whites being treated another. The

30:00

majority of a policeman in

30:02

my station always keeping is

30:04

a dab of like the

30:06

drive ins around criminals, animals.

30:08

most cooper's the dirty nasty.

30:11

a such a section of

30:13

the happens with an ordinary

30:15

citizen could get run on.

30:17

this quote I would say

30:19

about sixty percent of police

30:21

service and contact star attraction

30:23

situation. Certain units have really

30:25

developed a science around stopping

30:28

them with you. Know

30:30

where as in a man's if

30:32

they stop are hunted cause some

30:34

of that means it's unlikely that

30:36

them simon one or two or

30:38

three violations of some sort his

30:40

hand and possible Now course. After

30:43

you have to thousand. Nine

30:46

Hundred People's a very to

30:49

dance teachers, lawyers, doctors, watches

30:51

average work for people who

30:53

have broken any laws in

30:55

a very irritated aggravated about

30:57

being Stop Me. And

31:01

black folks or minorities. towels or

31:03

less least he tells his has

31:05

grown very short. won't accept a

31:08

my sister. Three were I said

31:10

such as human and degrading three.

31:13

That's where more young kids have

31:15

a job. at least never be

31:17

sure. To.

31:20

Sleep. With.

31:23

It's cargo, Baltimore, Detroit,

31:25

the same thing is

31:27

happening and all the

31:29

city's. Just. Feels

31:31

like Deja Vu. At

31:35

a time at Johns Cargo

31:37

Police Department. I

31:39

was young and I guess

31:42

I was very do about

31:44

doing something about. Racism.

31:48

Yeah. I remember they forced

31:50

us to put sawed off

31:52

shotguns police issued. In

31:54

the squad cars, lawyer would double

31:56

o' buckshot. If. you're hung you

31:58

know what that is I

32:01

and a handful of other

32:03

black police officers just felt that that was

32:05

wrong. You're chasing a kid

32:08

or chasing a stolen car and you

32:10

got something that could tear somebody's head

32:12

off. So

32:14

the Afro-American Patrolmen's League, we raised

32:17

hell, we picketed, we marched, we

32:19

did everything to get the police

32:21

department to take those guns out

32:24

of the squad of cars. Of

32:27

course speaking out like that on a

32:29

regular basis made me a popular fellow

32:31

in the police department. You

32:34

go into your locker room and you see

32:36

in your mailbox there's human

32:38

feces and cigarette

32:40

ashes and trash.

32:44

You kind of know what that means. You

32:46

go in the bathroom and there's a picture of you

32:48

on the wall dressed as a

32:51

native with a bone in your nose.

32:54

You know how they feel. They

32:57

were all knick-knack stuff just

33:00

to try and force me out

33:02

of the department. To

33:24

black police about the Patrolmen's

33:26

League. I was arrested

33:28

in the station and I'm

33:31

being suspended for conduct unbecoming a

33:33

policeman. In

33:36

the end I knew I had to go. I

33:40

mean I had fractured too many

33:42

feelings and too many people who

33:44

didn't want to hear what I

33:46

had to say. And

33:49

I left. I

33:52

get a small pension now. And

33:56

the beat goes on. In

34:09

1973, Renault Robinson and the

34:11

Afro-American Patrolmen's League filed a

34:13

landmark discrimination suit against the

34:15

Chicago Police Department. The

34:17

case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, which

34:20

ruled in favor of the Patrolmen's League. Renault

34:23

Robinson retired from the force in 1983. After

34:27

he retired, he was a board member for

34:29

the NAACP, the Chicago Urban League, and other

34:31

groups. Robinson passed away

34:33

from cancerous last year. One

34:39

of the things that first made me really excited about

34:41

listening to the Raw working tapes is

34:43

that Studs Tarkle was widely known for

34:45

being a master interviewer, and I wanted to

34:47

hear his moves. I

34:49

have to say, at first it was disappointing. In

34:52

the tapes, he doesn't sound like a great interviewer. He

34:55

doesn't really ask surprising, insightful questions.

34:58

A lot of the time he's just reacting to what people are

35:00

saying. But it's that reacting

35:02

that makes him so good. People

35:04

who knew him say Studs had a pretty big ego, but

35:07

in these interviews you can feel how much he's focused

35:09

on another human being. You

35:11

can hear him listening, his curiosity, being

35:14

totally in it. And

35:16

of course, that's the simple, corny secret

35:18

of interviewing, just giving someone

35:20

your full, undivided attention. This

35:23

next story, Studs interviews a young advertising

35:25

executive. She can be the prototype

35:28

for the character Peggy Olsen in Mad Men. This

35:31

is about the work you do. You're

35:33

a big shot, aren't you? Yes.

35:36

Well, I write and produce television

35:38

commercials. Big ones like General

35:40

Mills, Campbell, Kraft,

35:43

and I'm probably one of the, say,

35:47

ten highest paid people at the agency.

35:50

Do you have a question what you're

35:52

selling? Do I have a

35:54

question what I'm selling? Oh, I would say all

35:56

the time. Of course. I

35:58

don't think what I do is the same. necessary, even

36:01

that it performs much of a service.

36:03

You know, you're saying to

36:05

a lady, because this oil comes from the

36:07

bottom of the algae on the sea, you're

36:09

going to have a time of faith. That's

36:11

a crock of shit. I mean,

36:13

I know that. It's a part of my job. I do it. But

36:16

something else involved here. You

36:19

are the only woman there. Well,

36:21

I'm the only female producer at the

36:23

agency. You know, it used to be the token

36:26

black. Now I'm definitely the

36:28

token woman. And I'm ideal,

36:30

because I know how to handle myself, obviously, or I

36:33

wouldn't be where I am. I'm

36:35

young enough to communicate, I think,

36:38

effectively, and yet I'm old enough to

36:40

see, you know, the danger. What is the

36:43

danger? I mean, do you think... Well, the danger is aging.

36:45

I mean, I

36:47

am in a profession in which I cannot age.

36:49

I could not be doing

36:51

this at 38. You

36:54

might not be as valuable

36:56

as you are right now. Well,

36:59

I haven't seen many women

37:02

in any executive capacity age

37:04

gracefully in the advertising business. Just

37:08

for the sake of the record, I might

37:10

describe you as very, very attractive,

37:12

you know. Well, I don't

37:14

make any attempt to be, you know, the

37:17

glasses and bun and totally asexual image, because

37:19

that isn't the way I am. And

37:22

I'm not overly provocative either. It's this thin

37:24

line. When I'm with a

37:26

strange group of men saying new clients, I'm frequently

37:28

taken for the secretary, you know.

37:31

Generally, the first reaction I get is

37:34

they don't look at me. The first three

37:36

meetings at Johnson, even if I would ask

37:38

a direct question about the

37:40

assignment or the project, they would answer

37:43

the question and look at my boss

37:45

or another man in the room. They

37:47

had trouble relating just around a conference

37:49

table. So you're

37:51

the equal of these guys because you're

37:53

bright. Yes, but I

37:55

make them very nervous. Some

37:58

of them can't categorize me. Here

38:00

I am, this young girl, she's not married,

38:02

what's the matter with her? Doesn't

38:05

she want a real life as a woman? You

38:08

know, they're always labels that people use.

38:10

Is it a lesbian? Is it somebody

38:12

mistress in the company? Currently

38:14

the label that I enjoy, in quotes,

38:17

is a women's liver, which I advocate

38:21

a certain amount. Now,

38:23

here we come to a key. You are

38:25

a young woman executive, creative,

38:28

spirit. You're facing up to

38:30

double standards, obviously. All the time. There

38:34

was a time when I thought if I'd been born

38:36

male, it would have been a lot simpler. But

38:38

I don't daily think of that. I just sit here

38:40

and I think, Christ, you know, look where you are.

38:44

This is fantastic. I'll

38:48

stop the tape. Studs

38:50

Terkel interviewing an advertising executive in 1972. She

38:54

appeared in his book under the pseudonym Barbara

38:56

Herrick. Eddie

39:06

Arroyo was a jockey at the top of his game in

39:08

the 1970s. He

39:10

told Studs he loved the glamour of horse racing, but

39:13

it was a tough job. Talking

39:15

to Eddie Arroyo. Hey, I

39:17

say to you, your work, a

39:20

jockey. This is a sport

39:22

that most people in America follow. Most

39:25

do. Everybody plays horses. Tracks are filled.

39:27

Right. So what led you to being

39:29

a jockey? Well, I

39:31

read about it and I read how much jockeys

39:34

made. So I figured, why not me? I'll

39:36

give it a try. Because you

39:38

were small in stature. Because I was small

39:40

and 5 foot tall. Almost

39:42

5'1". Right now, I weigh 106

39:44

pounds, stripped naked. I

39:47

mean, I can, with the saddle and all, do 110. You

39:51

have to watch every ounce almost like a model. You

39:54

would think that you would have to watch every

39:56

ounce. But see, I waste so

39:58

much energy riding that I eat like. horse.

40:00

So how old were

40:03

you when you became a jockey? Well

40:05

I was considered very very late. I

40:07

was 22 years old. That's unusually late.

40:09

Unusually right. They start at 16. Is

40:13

that so? 16 you don't have the fear of danger. Yeah

40:16

this is something that's hardly talked about.

40:18

It's a matter of the dangers, the

40:20

perils of being a jockey. What are

40:22

the dangers? The

40:24

most common accident in a race is

40:27

what we call clipping of another horse's heels.

40:30

Your horse trips with the other horse's

40:32

heels and he'll automatically go

40:34

down. What helps us there is that the

40:36

horse is moving at such a momentum that

40:39

when he falls, they fall so quick

40:41

that we just sail in the air

40:43

and land 15 feet away from the

40:45

horse. You know he just drops from

40:47

us and we just keep going. So

40:50

sometimes you're in a race and everybody is

40:52

out to win it. In our society it's

40:54

the way it is. You get more money

40:56

if you win, second third and nothing. But

41:00

is there an understanding among jockeys, a matter

41:02

of safety? If a jockey is in trouble,

41:05

that rider has to do everything in his power to help

41:07

that other rider, whether it's going to cost him the race

41:09

or not. When another jockey is in

41:11

trouble, how can you tell? He

41:14

howls, I'm in trouble, I can't hold my horse. And

41:16

if there's any possibility of you helping him

41:18

move out so he can take his horse out

41:20

wide, you do it. This is

41:23

a key question. Do most jockeys

41:25

do this even though it may cost them

41:27

the race? I

41:29

would say most jockeys will do this,

41:31

most, not all. Since

41:34

you've become a jockey, has this in

41:36

any way altered your feelings about

41:38

non-humans, you know about an animal,

41:41

like a horse? Yes,

41:43

it has. What I have

41:45

learned is that by understanding the horse,

41:48

his different moves, his personality, he's

41:51

an individual, you know, and

41:53

you have to accept him for what they are. Okay,

42:04

we're out of the park racetrack, but

42:06

we're looking at the finish line. My

42:08

name's Eddie Arroyo. When Stud's

42:11

Turkle interviewed me, I

42:13

was a jockey, and I'm one of

42:15

the lucky ones. I walked away.

42:20

It was the last race of the day. The

42:22

horse, he fell, and

42:25

I went down with the horse. The

42:28

ambulance picked me up, took me to the emergency

42:30

room. I fractured

42:32

a couple of vertebrae in my lower

42:34

back, and four months later,

42:36

when I started to ride, I

42:39

didn't have that drive anymore. Just

42:42

wasn't there. When

42:45

you ride a racehorse and you

42:47

are not mentally aggressive,

42:50

that horse picks up on

42:52

that, and they don't run. They

42:55

don't really run hard for you. So

42:58

I decided, that's it. I'm

43:00

not going to ride anymore. When

43:03

I walked away, I was ready.

43:07

I didn't look back. Eddie

43:13

Arroyo retired as a jockey in 1978

43:16

and was inducted into the Chicago Sports

43:18

Hall of Fame. He's currently

43:20

the commissioner of the Illinois Racing Board. While

43:25

he was collecting interviews for his book, Studs

43:28

went to visit Duke and Lee's Auto Repair

43:30

in Geneva, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. Studs

43:33

went there to talk about the work of fixing cars, but

43:36

what he found was a different story about

43:38

fathers and sons working together and the

43:40

tensions within a family business. We

43:43

went back more than four decades later and found

43:45

the family business still intact, tensions

43:48

and all. We'll start with Studs. We're

43:52

on the south end of Route

43:54

31, Geneva, Illinois, and we're sitting

43:56

here in the office of this

43:58

service station. I'm talking to Duke

44:00

Singer. I'm looking at

44:02

the sign, Duke and Lee's, there's father and

44:05

son, and your son Lee is, how old?

44:09

He's 24, he's your partner. Yes, and

44:11

Lee, you've been working with your father how

44:13

long? Well, more or less ever since I've

44:15

been 12 years old. So

44:18

let's talk about the work you do, Duke. Oh,

44:21

I love it, there's never a day long

44:23

enough, you know. It's the

44:25

automobile, it's tinkering with cars you like. It's

44:29

not tinkering. No, it's not tinkering, I'm

44:31

sorry. Repairing, victory, you know. For

44:34

instance, this morning, a man come in,

44:36

we repacked his wheel bearings, aligned his

44:38

front end, lubricate and

44:40

change oil, and he

44:42

didn't know it, but he had only

44:44

one tail light working, so we fixed that.

44:47

You know, see how we sell his service,

44:50

and if he can't give service, then you might as

44:52

well give up. Let's talk a little

44:54

about that, Duke, the matter of service.

44:56

I know you're proud of it, quite obviously.

44:59

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. Well,

45:01

in fact, my wife tells me that I take my

45:03

business more serious than

45:05

a doctor, and I told her, if I

45:07

didn't take it serious, you know, who would?

45:11

Now, your son, is Lee's attitude

45:13

toward the job the same as yours? No,

45:17

he's a little bit, we'll

45:21

say, for instance, a person's car's broke down,

45:24

it's on a Sunday, or

45:26

a Saturday night or something, and maybe it'll

45:28

take an hour to fix it. Well,

45:31

I'll go ahead and fix it. With Lee's

45:34

type, it'll say, well, leave

45:36

it set till Monday, you

45:39

know. I'm

45:42

talking to Duke's son now, Lee Singer. Do

45:45

you feel, that's a big question, because

45:48

this involves generations. Do

45:50

you feel there's a difference between his attitude and

45:52

your attitude toward the job? Oh,

45:55

yeah. I have pride in What

45:58

I do, but... See.

46:01

This day and age. You

46:03

don't always repair something. You

46:05

renew? Go ahead and. Take

46:08

a waterborne back. his back His

46:11

era you rebuilt waterfalls but now

46:13

it. He. Put our newest

46:15

his ideas you. Are

46:18

all ruin Visa. Gonna.

46:21

Old Fashioned. Know

46:23

what ways he will face. Like

46:26

judging people. Say

46:29

mile long hair is no good If.

46:32

Anybody even meet.

46:35

Point of that least: half isn't

46:38

long, but it's longer than the

46:40

usual prevention. You're

46:43

like you were. Yeah

46:45

like my work. In

46:48

a way. When me

46:51

minute I play music continues

46:53

playing rock group play drums,

46:55

bass, bass. the new field

46:57

There something else outside the

46:59

work you're doing here. So

47:02

if there's other world whereas

47:04

to a father, this the

47:06

world read. But.

47:09

I'm in now pretty deep. Him:

47:12

As says swallows deals were

47:15

some does carry an the

47:17

family of various. Thank

47:21

you very much. So

47:26

Yang working on it may

47:29

sixty a transmission system. I

47:36

am lead singer. My.

47:38

Dad died. Make. Was made

47:41

a six of two thousand and five.

47:46

He was old school. He

47:49

he could. Pinpoint.

47:51

Rattles, squeaks, noises

47:54

from an engine or tools

47:56

missionary differential my weekends. We

47:59

could put. The trunk of a willful. Shut.

48:01

the lid and go drive it wrong

48:04

neighborhood hit some bumps in eat out

48:06

okay take it back to he stay

48:08

right Zachary one was. Like

48:10

that. Guy. I mean,

48:13

I really did. Appreciate

48:15

what my dad knew. What?

48:19

As far as our. Our

48:22

our relationship. He

48:25

always can look down on me. You. Know.

48:29

I don't know what his problem

48:31

was. I mean why I

48:33

had friends that? I? I know they had a

48:35

lot better relationship with their dad than I ever

48:37

did, but. They. Warm weather data as much

48:40

as I was his soul. You

48:42

know, a family business? it's is

48:45

totally different. Yeah,

48:47

it's It's tough southern sun working

48:49

together. Stuff it is.

48:52

This is my son of Scott. What's

48:55

I mean? I. Don't think

48:57

our relationship is as bad as. How

48:59

you an engram? Poor. Boy

49:02

on it's like like you said, he

49:04

was old school. Were. Now year

49:06

old school. Because. You're

49:08

like grandpa. You. Know what change?

49:12

I said that because we're in

49:14

that new generation, that new era

49:16

where things get in even more

49:19

advanced and it's Argonne, electronic and

49:21

hands free, so you gotta be

49:23

able to adapt to if you're

49:25

gonna succeed. I

49:28

mean, I'm not. I'm not

49:30

gonna beat Duke. Know

49:33

neck and beer till I'm. Can't.

49:35

Walk or a more. Mack

49:38

and do that. I

49:41

need to step back more.

49:44

And our. If this

49:47

place is to continue. While.

49:49

At all events on Skype.

49:53

I mean you have to be warned.

49:55

him A change to survive with a

49:57

new air and it's on the run.

50:00

The show. I'm going to run the show. Mostly

50:03

for another four years. Just.

50:06

Don't forget about service! To

50:09

you consume. Duke.

50:17

And leads auto repair. Or the

50:19

way to pick up a copy of The Buck. It was

50:21

called Glennon Daves. Not. Mongo least

50:23

singer son Scott officially took over

50:25

the family business. And. Now Scott

50:28

has a new employee! Is twenty

50:30

four year old son Austin. Are.

50:33

Closing the our with an interview Studs did

50:35

in the lounge of the Sherman Hotel in

50:37

downtown Chicago. For. Many years

50:39

that's where Hots Michael's spends his nights

50:41

taking requests from people gathered around the

50:44

piano bar. Where

50:46

it sitting with hats Michael's you want a

50:48

noodle At the piano you can find.

50:51

At the piano bar or

50:53

sit around the piano and

50:55

that drinking is now. cocktail

50:57

hour about yourself. Hats how

50:59

long have you been playing?

51:01

I started here and nineteen

51:03

sixty two starts. When

51:06

I started here, we had six

51:08

piano players per night the scrolling

51:11

violence and we had a full

51:13

orchestra. I

51:15

am the last live entertainment of

51:17

the Sherman Hotel. Ninety

51:23

over twelve piano playing, a

51:25

secondary. Of

51:27

get a better. Word

51:30

Talks. Talks

51:37

whatever deals of the day. They

51:39

had the talk over lawyers reykjavik.

51:45

I give us a drink of. generally

51:48

are the subjects that the

51:51

rumble cannot bring up have

51:53

a personal things for the

51:55

very like watched by well

51:57

and ah marriage the mr

51:59

brother problems. Saloons

52:01

are kind of full of lonely people, kind

52:05

of full of an empty hour or two, voiding

52:07

their life somewhere, you know. Darcy,

52:11

can you excuse me one moment? Hello,

52:13

Judy. Hi, honey. Nice to see you

52:15

girls. Oh, we're

52:17

just kind of having fun here. Take me to show. This

52:19

is Mr. Stubbs' car show, girl. Hi!

52:29

So, you are the only live

52:31

musician right now? In the Sherman

52:33

Hotel. What is it that has

52:35

happened? Well, number one would be,

52:37

when television came in and came in

52:39

strong, it put a terrible

52:42

dent in live entertainment. No question about it.

52:46

Number two, I think,

52:49

a little bit of fear. Fear.

52:52

Fear. In her city, don't you mean?

52:54

Some people that I know, people that I know well,

52:56

haven't been downtown in two, three years. This

52:58

then is connected with the move to the suburb. Absolutely.

53:04

What the amplified music is, you can hear on

53:06

the jukebox this. Right now, I never was a

53:08

jukebox before. There never was a jukebox in

53:10

the Hotel Sherman until recently. Do

53:14

you have years of

53:16

work coming to an end? Absolutely.

53:18

The first many years of this

53:20

business I drank. I

53:23

think I drank because I was afraid. I

53:27

have been drinking eight years and I'm still

53:29

afraid of drinking. Sure. Not afraid of growing

53:31

old. Afraid of what lies

53:33

ahead. What happens? I've watched a lot of

53:35

other piano players that I know that are

53:37

60, 63 years old. And

53:41

I don't like what I seek. As

53:44

we finish our conversation, you

53:46

mentioned this business. You

53:49

said this business. It is

53:51

a business. A definite business. I'm

53:54

here to create

53:56

a selling of liquor and that's how

53:59

I derive my own. salary. It is

54:01

a business. You weren't thinking of it

54:03

as an art form. I don't really think

54:05

of it as an art form. Because

54:08

I never thought much of myself as an

54:10

artist. I

54:13

know my limitations. It was

54:15

very frustrating years ago, but

54:18

I learned my limitations and I'm glad

54:20

I learned them. I

54:24

was happier for it. Do

54:26

you have any favorites, huh? Good

54:29

night, counsel. Sted Storkel

54:31

interviewing Norman Hops Michaels at the Sherman

54:33

Hotel in downtown Chicago in 1972. A

54:37

year later, the hotel was demolished. Michaels

54:39

eventually found a new home at the Chicago Chalk

54:41

House, where he played for another 20 years.

54:44

He died in 2006 at the age of 82. If

54:57

there's one thing you learn from reading working,

54:59

and you can also hear it in the tapes, it's

55:02

that while people work because they have to, that's

55:04

only part of the picture. As

55:07

he went around the country with his reel-to-reel

55:09

tape recorder, Sted Storkel heard people talk about

55:11

wanting to be occupied, looking for

55:13

structure, community, pride,

55:16

meaning. As human beings,

55:18

we're wired to search for these things. And

55:20

if we're lucky, we find them in what we

55:22

spend most of our waking hours doing. In

55:25

the introduction to his book, Sted Storkel writes

55:27

this, which I love. Work

55:30

is about the search for daily meaning as well

55:32

as daily bread, for recognition as

55:34

well as cash, for astonishment

55:36

rather than torpor. In

55:38

short, for a sort of life rather than a

55:40

Monday through Friday sort of time. Our

55:49

series, Working Then and Now, was produced

55:51

in collaboration with Jane Sacks at Project

55:54

Anne. You can learn more

55:56

about the wonderful work they do at projectanne.org.

56:00

projectand.org. Thanks

56:02

to Sarah Kate Kramer, the Chicago History

56:05

Museum, WFMT, and the

56:07

Stubbs-Turkle Radio Archive. This

56:09

series originally aired on NPR and our podcast

56:11

in 2016. You

56:14

can hear more stories from the series

56:16

at our website, radiodiaries.org. The

56:19

Radio Diaries team includes Nellie Gillis,

56:21

Elisa Scarce, Micah Hazel, Lena Engelstein,

56:23

and myself. Our editors are Deborah

56:25

George and Ben Shapiro. We're part

56:27

of Radiotopia from PRX, a collective

56:29

of the best independent storytelling

56:31

podcasts around. You can listen

56:34

to all the shows at Radiotopia.fm. We

56:37

have support from the National Endowment for the

56:39

Humanities, the National Endowment for the Arts, the

56:41

New York State Council on the Arts, and

56:43

from listeners like you. I'm Trevor

56:45

Timm. Radiotopia

57:02

from PRX.