0:03

Fish on hey radcast is on and welcome to the show mr jim zumbo gentlemen i am

0:09

pleased to be here and i use that term loosely when i say gentlemen,

0:14

al winder just want to welcome you to the show thanks for uh taking time out

0:18

of your busy schedule to hang out with us on a podcast for a little bit i am

0:22

looking forward to it there's nothing makes me happier than a cold in minnesota

0:26

if i can't be out fishing i should be talking,

0:30

Hailing from Wisconsin, Jana Waller.

0:33

Thank you so much for having me. It's Radcast.

0:36

Hunting, fishing, and everything in between. Powered by Bow Spider.

0:40

Brought to you by PK Lures and High Mountain Seasonings. And now,

0:44

here's your hosts, Patrick Edwards and David Merrill.

0:52

Today, I have the immense pleasure of introducing a guy that I've wanted to

0:57

visit with for years. He's very well known in North America and across the world

1:02

for muskie and pike fishing. He was named by Outdoor Life Magazine as one of the top 20 anglers on the planet.

1:08

You've probably seen him on Outdoor Life TV and a number of other channels on

1:14

YouTube, doing stuff with Bass Pro Shop, Eagle Claw, Clam Outdoors, you name it. But Mr.

1:20

Pete Mena, thank you so much for coming on to talk about muskies today.

1:23

Yeah, I'm glad to be here, I have to say. thanks for

1:26

inviting me and actually i wouldn't really

1:29

talk muskies but i like to hunt too so that

1:32

sounds like quite enough yeah and he's super

1:35

amped up about it he about a week beforehand i

1:38

think he started losing sleep like you and i do before we go on muskie trips

1:41

and he's super amped up about it so he's on his way now and he talks about for

1:47

the hunter the ultimate experience is going after those doll sheep and i could

1:52

say for freshwater angling i would say the ultimate is is going after muskies.

1:57

And you've been doing this for many years and doing it really well.

2:01

Like I said, I've enjoyed reading your articles. Just tell us all just the story of where you grew up and how you got into muskie fishing.

2:10

Lucky guy. I was born in Chicago, but six months old, my folks decided to buy

2:17

a resort in Hayward, Wisconsin on the Spider Lake chain of lakes here.

2:22

And they owned that and ran it for 11 years. And in those days,

2:26

it was, you know, fishing, period.

2:29

And there was no recreational activity. That's what everybody did.

2:33

And so I grew up on a fishing resort, and the rest was up to God.

2:39

I just wired. You knew it early on. If I was ever in trouble as a kid at the

2:44

resort, it was because I was fishing instead of doing what I was supposed to

2:48

be doing, a little chore. Yeah, it's just, and I got to say, it's interesting on that topic.

2:54

My dad, Tex, and I were fishing about a week ago around Little Lake,

2:59

and I kind of talked to my dad about it. But I compared myself,

3:04

obviously, quite a few years prior to this little girl.

3:07

Dad, mom working in the yard. This little gal sitting on a dock and she was fishing.

3:13

And she was sticking right to it and catching her own. She couldn't have been

3:18

more than five years old. And she was taking her own fish off, baiting her own hook and sitting there catching fish.

3:26

And I thought, yeah, I can certainly understand that.

3:29

You know because that's yeah i think you're just

3:32

wired that way and that was definitely me early on and

3:35

the last year of my dad

3:38

owning the resort i actually did my

3:41

first guiding he had a guide cancel for whatever reason and told the guy my

3:47

kids got a strong back and he knows a few spots of course was rolling in those

3:51

days that's where the strong back comes in as far as both position and I went

3:55

out and guided somebody and the guy actually caught a muskie and gosh, I was a hero.

4:00

I got a pocket knife for a tip and a little bit of money.

4:04

I was more concerned about the pocket knife than the money at the time.

4:07

I thought that was pretty neat. But that kind of was the start of it and then a few years later,

4:14

we had moved, but I got a job guiding in the summers.

4:18

At a fishing resort where the boat and stuff was provided and I could just ride my bicycle.

4:24

School over there so I started guiding at that age.

4:27

And I was supposed to go to college, decided that wasn't a very good thing to do. I'd rather fish.

4:32

So I just kept on guiding with no specific plan necessarily,

4:38

other than I wanted to fish and guide.

4:40

And I understood that I had to figure out how to make a living doing that.

4:45

So I fished and guided like crazy. Did a lot of other things for the first 10 years.

4:51

Of course, you don't have any money and you're buying lures as fast as you can.

4:54

So I trawled concrete and pounded nails and did a little bit of everything from

5:01

bartending to whatever.

5:04

And it just kind of, I never had a grand plan, but I really had, I was on my own then.

5:11

And it was pretty much booked up that early already.

5:16

I did pretty well. And then I pushed myself because personally,

5:22

the muskies were the hardest thing to catch. I had enough business,

5:25

and I personally got more interested in that and took it on as a challenge.

5:30

And I switched over to, with the exception of the month of May,

5:34

muskies only. After that was my clientele.

5:39

And I think that was just it, that single decision and taking on that challenge

5:45

and basically fishing 16 hours a day every day.

5:49

I caught a lot of fish and got recognized. I got to the point where if anybody

5:54

came to the Hayward, Wisconsin area to muskie fish, the resorts would say,

5:58

if you want to catch a muskie, this young guy, he's got a lot of hair,

6:01

but he sure catches them. And it all just went from there, having television opportunities and seminars.

6:09

And I was asked to start writing articles, which I found pretty unbelievable.

6:14

It was interesting because I ignored typing classes in high school.

6:18

And then I literally had to teach myself to type because I'd never taken it before.

6:23

And it was just a gradual change,

6:26

progression in reality it was all just the way i was raised and the way i was wired to.

6:32

Yeah and i'm glad you brought that up as far as

6:35

i think people get bit by the muskie bug and the

6:39

reason i say that and i have not caught a true muskie yet just because we don't

6:43

have access to them really here in wyoming catching hybrids there's something

6:48

about catching those fish that it ruins you and that's what danny curla told

6:53

me he said you catch one of these these things, it's going to ruin you because something,

6:57

there's like a switch that goes off in your brain of that was really cool.

7:01

That was really fun. I want to do that again.

7:04

And so I have a feeling for you, it's the same thing, right?

7:08

Yeah, it was interesting. I had no real favorite the high school days, right?

7:13

I did everything and crappies and walleyes and bass and were good enough for

7:18

me as muskies, but there was something that just snapped.

7:20

When I got out, I was in a a provision, being busy enough anyway to switch over.

7:26

And then what that allows you to do too, just like anything else,

7:29

if you're playing a team different sport, but then all of a sudden you suddenly concentrate on one, when you're just completely

7:35

targeting that single species and following everything that happens and trying

7:43

to piece it all together, yeah, you just really do get dialed.

7:47

And I do have to say that in those days, it was really a lot different.

7:53

The technology and the information and everything has changed so much that when

8:00

I look at it now and I look back then,

8:02

it would be really hard to stand out these days because there's so many really good anglers.

8:10

Anybody that fired, I was, and I'm sure you are and Danny is.

8:15

They're out there and they're good. the level of the average angler is really

8:19

pretty exceptional these days. Back then, it was a lot easier to stand out, to be honest.

8:25

One of the things that seems simplistic these days was I would fish oddball

8:33

spots, and there weren't a lot of people targeting fish in mid-lake,

8:38

especially deeper stuff, deeper rocks, and that kind of thing.

8:42

It was more or less just saying anything bad against anybody,

8:46

buddy but they more or less shoreline fishing and

8:49

so if you were really going at it like

8:52

i was and really exploring the limits in a lot of bodies of water around here

8:57

i was literally doing some things that nobody else was doing just structurally

9:01

and then when you're putting in those kind of hours targeting that one species

9:07

all the time that that really made a big difference.

9:12

Yeah, and I don't know if you can touch on this a little bit,

9:15

but muskie fishing is not the same as going rainbow trout fishing or walleye

9:20

fishing or anything like that. It's a different ballgame, and so I don't know if you could speak to that a

9:24

little bit, just how different it is than other styles of fishing.

9:28

One of the things about muskie fishing is the day-to-day patterning.

9:33

Because there's so few out there, you can't necessarily try a lure for five

9:39

minutes and say anything, right? It's a whole different ballgame in that respect, or try a certain type of structure

9:47

for a half hour and say they're not on the rocks.

9:50

You try a couple of rock spots, or you try a green cabbage, red cabbage, whatever,

9:55

pick your weed type, give that a try, and hoping to either find out that they're

10:01

there or hoping to eliminate it as a place where muskies are hanging and active on that particular day,

10:08

it just requires so much more time from that standpoint of patterning everything about it.

10:15

And then you get into lure types and you get into the speed that they like a

10:19

fast retrieve, a slow retrieve. Are they in the mood for erratic stuff? And.

10:24

Certain depth levels. Topwater, there's just a tremendous amount of different options.

10:29

And when you're dealing with a low-density critter, it's just harder to put

10:33

all those pieces together. And I would say that if there was a single thing that I got to be really good

10:40

at with all of the hours on the water, it was that alone.

10:45

It's just the day-to-day stuff of trying

10:48

to figure out where they are and and

10:51

maybe where the active ones are i i really believe

10:54

in that as well at times i think you're you're probably

10:58

fishing over muskies in a lot of cases but there's

11:00

there's certain patterns to where the active

11:04

fish are are going and what they're feeding on for whatever reason i think that's

11:09

one thing even with all the technology and stuff that we have these days that

11:13

one particular point will probably never figure out completely what it is that

11:18

that That triggers the active fish in the system on a given day, even a real tough day.

11:22

I think there's always something, there's always a way, it's always possible

11:26

to catch one if you find the right pattern, if you find the group of fish that are active.

11:32

And then, unfortunately, you've also got to figure out what it is that's triggering

11:36

them on a tough day like that. The reality is you do get the perfect weather at times, and those are those

11:43

rare days where everything's just going right. And a lot of times there's really

11:47

not even a pattern structurally to a certain extent.

11:51

And when they're hot, it's weird. They can be so hard to catch.

11:54

But sometimes it almost seems like you could throw your sock in the water and catch one.

11:59

There are days where there is really no particular pattern on lure type.

12:05

On my guiding days, one of the things I learned early on, you never start a

12:10

day regardless of what happened the day before. You don't start a day with everybody

12:14

throwing a bucktail even if the day before you caught them all on bucktail.

12:18

And I would always start off with the guy in the front using what I thought

12:22

in my head from prior experience and current weather was highest percentage

12:27

lure that they're most likely to bite and go on down the line.

12:31

And the guy in the back of the boat, which was always me, I guess,

12:34

I would just be trying different things to test the waters.

12:36

And you go through that process every given day of trying to figure out what

12:42

they're in the mood for, where they're located.

12:44

It and these days in a lot of cases you

12:47

can actually see them with side imaging and stuff like

12:50

that but in a lot of cases you might know fish are there but

12:53

they're just literally not active sometimes you actually can see

12:56

that visually in some cases in clear water and sight fishing there's fish you

13:00

just can't make a move and you gotta that's a pattern you gotta forget about

13:05

and try something else find something else where where those fish may be willing

13:09

to eat So it's a chess game all the time. To me, that's one of the funner things about it, though.

13:14

Tough as they are and frustrating as they are at times, just that challenge

13:18

of trying to figure out what's going on and then combine that with potential feeding windows,

13:25

probable feeding windows, which is barometric pressure changes and lunar influences.

13:31

And take full advantage of those kinds of things when they do occur.

13:35

Occur that's the other that's the next level of being

13:38

real effective out there on the water because in a

13:41

lot of cases there's a lot of long hours where fish are

13:44

pretty tough but if you got them located you got things dialed in

13:47

a little bit and then you have a window of activity open up being aware of everything

13:52

about it and knowing it's a window so that you're maximizing that that time

13:57

period to catch as many of those fish as you can catch them and you want to

14:01

enjoy the the moment and maybe get a quick picture and that kind of thing, but boy,

14:04

you've got to get right back at it and you've got to be on the same pattern.

14:08

I learned a long time ago, boy, especially, it's more common if you're on bigger water, but,

14:14

If there's a probable window coming, whether it be a predictable lunar activity

14:19

or barometric pressure changes, you do not want to be driving down the lake on a long run.

14:25

In a lot of cases, especially in big water where the water's rough,

14:29

you can take a 30-minute run. If you do that at the wrong time, you're not paying attention to things,

14:34

you may completely miss a good feeding window because you decided,

14:39

I didn't catch anything in there, I'm going to drive to this spot over here,

14:42

but it takes you a half hour to get there, and you miss the whole thing.

14:45

So for muskies, what's the, for barometric pressure or moon phases,

14:51

what do you typically look for there? Generally, a dropping barometer is better. A moving barometer is,

14:58

to me, just in general, better.

15:01

But I like to see a frontal activity coming in, and preferably fairly slow,

15:07

and obviously not electric. That's always a tough one to deal with. But that's usually the ideal situation.

15:14

And generally, the feeding window is going to come prior as that barometric

15:18

pressure is dropping and you see the front moving in. That's generally going to be the time.

15:23

But in a lot of cases, too, it'll be after.

15:26

And that's one thing people should remember if you do get, generally,

15:31

this is more common with the fronts that have some electricity to them.

15:34

One thing about it, if you bail, and that's a smart thing to do,

15:38

there's no sense getting hit to catch a fish. But try and, as soon as you think it's safe, if you're at the boat landing or

15:46

at your dock or whatever, try and get right back out again, especially if you

15:51

didn't experience a feeding window prior.

15:55

If there was a front coming in and nothing happened prior, odds are there's

16:00

going to be a window after. And that's something I learned, that you obviously still want to be safe,

16:06

but as soon as you think you are safe, get back out there and get after it.

16:10

Because in a lot of cases, that window will come after.

16:12

Now, when you get the weather, in my opinion, trumps lunar stuff, no doubt about it.

16:18

I generally don't pay much attention to the lunar stuff when you've got crazy

16:24

weather, when you've got frontal activity all day.

16:27

I don't even necessarily worry about it. I'm just trying to play the weather.

16:31

But when you got steady weather. It doesn't matter if it's sun or clouds or whatever, but if everything's fairly

16:37

steady, the wind direction is steady, speed, the whole nine yards,

16:41

those are generally the days where you really want to pay attention to that lunar stuff.

16:47

You absolutely do not want to be taking that long run when the moon's underfoot or a rising setting.

16:54

You definitely want to make sure you're on spot sand.

16:57

And a lot of people are pretty persnickety about lunchtime or whatever time of day.

17:01

Eating the moon sets right dead on noon don't be eating the sandwich then unless

17:05

you're trolling yeah i know for walleyes the typically when it's a full moon

17:12

phase and the moon's just starting to crest that's typically when i get a lot

17:17

of hits in pretty rapid succession as they start to feed,

17:20

and it's going one of those things where you better have your line in the water

17:24

you're going to miss out on the best bite and it may last 10 minutes and be

17:27

over and so it's important to to to be ready so that yeah that's good insight

17:32

i was curious what you thought about that and. Another thing just shift gears just a little bit is it

17:37

just anecdotally for me it looks like more people are

17:40

beginning to get that musky bug and

17:43

that musky fever and pursue muskies especially

17:46

for catch and release and so why do

17:49

you think it is that there's it and

17:52

maybe you see a different trend but is that true

17:55

that more people are doing it and and why would that be oh

17:59

yeah absolutely no doubt more doing it to

18:02

the point of actually being surprising i would have

18:05

guessed 20 years ago that there would be this many

18:08

people doing it and that much interest part of it i think to a certain extent

18:12

social media i think may have something to do with it too there's something

18:16

about that mystique that you talked about at first of the toughest fish to catch

18:21

and all of that and i and And I do think that when people are looking around on social media,

18:27

yeah, it's nice to see a walleye, it's nice to see a bass, but all of a sudden

18:30

they see somebody holding a great big toothy critter and something clicks and

18:35

let's eagle or whatever combination of things hit you,

18:39

at least interest, you go, that's a big fish.

18:42

And boy, it's got a whole bunch of teeth. It'd be nice to catch one of those.

18:47

And it's one of those things that it's not for everybody. but it's interesting

18:51

over the years, all the guiding and stuff I've done.

18:55

There were people that were out in the boat and really seemed to enjoy it and

18:59

that kind of thing, but the buck doesn't hit everybody.

19:02

And there's some that'll go right back to mainly bass fishing or mainly walleye

19:08

fishing and that type of thing. But other people...

19:12

But hits them like it hit me and other folks like Danny. You just go,

19:15

oh, this is, you focus in on it.

19:18

And then in a way, I don't know if I should be happy for them or feel bad.

19:23

They get addicted to it. And in a way, that is sad to a certain extent.

19:29

I've, in recent years, I got to say, I've backed off a bit and actually been

19:34

able to enjoy bass and walleye and other stuff a little more that I don't have

19:39

to be catching muskies only. Lean and i've really gotten back to enjoying all types

19:44

of fishing just a little bit more i've always enjoyed it

19:47

all people get to taking it personally if it

19:50

hits you like that it is an obsession there's no

19:53

doubt you buy too many lures you spend way too much time and money doing it

19:58

but there's something about it that just hooks you and i still to this day you

20:02

know when people say why did you pick them and what about muskies is still really

20:06

got yeah i will say it's different with all All other species didn't freshwater anyway.

20:13

I enjoy them and truly love bluegills

20:16

and crappies, and I find myself giggling and having a great time.

20:20

But the muskies shock you, and part of it's that low-density thing.

20:26

And there's something about that. With all of the fish I've caught, you still get excited.

20:32

There's that rush because you haven't seen anything for hours.

20:35

There's something about that. and then all of a sudden here's the big

20:38

big fish and there they are and i had

20:41

to laugh it was literally just three days ago

20:44

i haven't been doing much musky fishing because of the heat over the summer

20:47

here but i just toyed with them a little bit here the last few days and i had

20:53

a fish come up on a top water lure glider bait and i've seen this before in

20:59

calm water where they just suck it and literally pull it down.

21:02

And I hadn't seen a fish in, I don't know, three hours.

21:06

And that fish, I was convinced had it, and I set the hook and pulled it away from it.

21:13

And I thought, after all these years, you should know better.

21:17

They still do it to you. They freak you out, and that's what I love about it.

21:22

So there's a similar story I have.

21:25

The very first encounter I had with muskies was with hybrids here in Wyoming,

21:30

And we had a lake that the water is super clear.

21:32

You can see 30 feet, 40 feet down, really crystal clear water.

21:37

And so I went there and I was trying to catch my first tiger muskie.

21:40

And I had, I'd been using a bait that Danny had recommended and I was working it.

21:46

And I saw this big dark thing behind my lure and it just looked like a,

21:51

like a log out there floating. And I was twitching that lure and it came a little bit closer to the boat and

21:57

that, that log just kept falling. And then I realized it was a tiger muskie

22:01

and he just sat there next to the boat looking at me.

22:04

And I, my adrenaline was just through the roof at that point.

22:09

And I was so frustrated because he wouldn't hit it. And he was probably 38,

22:12

40 inches, something like that, but he just wouldn't hit it.

22:14

Fishing another hour, haven't seen another fish.

22:17

I throw into this spot and I'm working the lure back and I see this muskie come

22:21

charging after it. And it was a nice one.

22:24

And the lure was on the surface because it was a top water lure.

22:28

Same thing. I saw him come up, but his mouth was open and I didn't wait for

22:32

the weight of the fish on the lure. and I set the hook and I pulled it right out of his mouth.

22:37

And that, because I couldn't go again, I was in high school.

22:40

I couldn't go again for another year to go tiger muskie fishing.

22:43

That seriously bothered me for a year.

22:46

Like it, it drove me nuts that I had done that. I had pulled it out of his mouth. I was so mad at myself.

22:52

I was so frustrated, but they do that to you.

22:56

They do it. It's just, it's crazy. But I think that's part of, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, I can tell you this.

23:04

I guess I don't know exactly how old you are, but one of the few good things

23:09

about age, it doesn't bother you. Or at least in my case.

23:13

I don't like it when I embarrass myself and do things like the story I just

23:18

told you. I've been doing it so many years, but yeah, it used to,

23:22

I'd lay awake at night and lose a big fish or mess one up.

23:27

That always has bugged me back then and still to this day.

23:31

When you didn't do anything wrong and you wouldn't have done it any different

23:35

if you had it to do over again, that's fishing, right?

23:37

But when you did something wrong, you should know better.

23:40

And if you combine that with a real big one and you don't get it because of

23:47

your own stupidity, It's kind of hard to take. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And especially I knew I wasn't going to have another opportunity for quite a while.

23:56

And it just killed me. And that night I didn't sleep. I was so mad.

23:59

And I just kept having visions of that fish swimming off after that.

24:03

And I was like, oh man, I can't believe I did that. That's part of what makes you also go back and try to do better the next time.

24:10

But I do want to ask you that because there are so many people getting into

24:13

the sport, One of the things that I have a hard time watching is people think

24:18

I'm going to go catch a muskie. And these hybrid muskies to me seem like they're a little bit easier to catch.

24:24

They're a little bit more ready to just hammer something.

24:27

I think it's the pike side of them that gives them that. They're just,

24:30

they're always looking for something to eat, it seems. But they...

24:34

People catch one, but then they realize, okay, now I've caught this thing and

24:38

I don't know how to unhook it without getting hooked by these huge hooks or these teeth.

24:43

And I don't know how to handle this fish properly.

24:46

So you see people grabbing them incorrectly or holding them in a terrible position,

24:50

keeping them out of water too long. What advice would you give to the person that wants to go pursue muskies?

24:57

What advice do you give them before they go out and actually try to catch one?

25:00

But that's real important, without a doubt, and to a certain extent,

25:06

somewhat of a frustrating topic, I guess, in a way, because it seems like a

25:11

lot of people don't want to take that preparation.

25:14

And I guess I understand it because the desire to catch the fish and get the

25:20

hot lure and this kind of thing is more exciting than the whole idea of,

25:26

you know, trying to be responsible and really learning how to handle the fish

25:31

and be prepared for the whole situation.

25:34

There really isn't enough of that. And as much as I've talked about it over

25:39

the years, I feel like I haven't done enough and we should all do a little bit

25:43

more on that. But this is a very true statement.

25:46

And as someone who's done this for a lot of years and for the past 30 years,

25:51

I've been able to make my living. I've been blessed.

25:54

I've been able to make my living solely off of fishing and the fishing industry.

26:00

And I was smart enough, I'm not the smartest guy on earth, but I was smart enough

26:05

to realize that what I was really seeking way back then, you're trying to find

26:09

those spots where other people aren't fishing,

26:13

like I mentioned, but also, you know, bodies of water that are good,

26:18

that frankly up your eye, that are healthy, healthy fisheries.

26:23

It doesn't matter how good you are. You're really only as good as the health of the fishery that you're fishing.

26:30

So I often say when I get on a conservation topic when I'm doing seminars,

26:36

and I start off with a lot of you probably think this topic is boring,

26:41

but this is actually the most important thing you can learn to catch more and

26:47

bigger fish. And it's absolutely true.

26:51

That beyond the lures and the electronics and all of the different stuff you

26:56

really need to be good at the handling the fish and be prepared to land that

27:02

have the proper tools which includes.

27:05

A good net with proper mesh and all of the tools that you need to really handle

27:13

it and get that that fish off properly and quickly,

27:16

and then also know how to hold a fish properly if you want to get some photos.

27:23

Just for any part of it, proper hold is important.

27:27

You've still got to get the hooks out of the fish, get them out of the net and

27:30

back into the water, even if you're not planning on taking a picture.

27:34

So it's always been surprising to me to a certain extent of how many people

27:38

will actually go out and pursue musky or northern pike, or I guess maybe in a way any species,

27:44

without having any idea or practice or research on what a proper hold is and

27:50

the fact that a supported hold for any species,

27:54

and the bigger they are and the heavier they are, the more important that becomes

27:58

to be aware of how to get a proper gill hold and use a supported hold in a horizontal

28:04

position as opposed to just dangling vertical with a gill hold or on some kind of a holding device.

28:12

All of those things are extremely important. Just to go over the tools real

28:17

quickly for muskie, some of them seem fairly common sense, but definitely pliers,

28:22

a couple of pairs of needle nose pliers. And in the case of a muskie fishing, I recommend getting them big.

28:28

It's a farther way that you can stay from the teeth. And then if.

28:33

Fish does ingest the lure a little bit of course the muskie's mouth

28:36

is big and you may need to go down into the

28:39

mouth four to five inches to get at the fish

28:42

in the case of a really per the bait the hooks in the

28:45

case of a really big muskie so you want to

28:48

get a minimum of 11 inch pliers and preferably

28:51

even 14 inch pliers to be able

28:54

to get at those hooks and one thing that a lot of people don't think

28:57

of that's extremely important is is cutter you've

29:00

got to have hook cutters quality hook cutters that are going

29:03

to be able to cut hooks up to seven odd

29:06

there's just we've got some really big baits that

29:08

are used for muskie fishing these days seven odd eight odd

29:11

hooks and there's other items out there but

29:14

still to this day i believe the absolute best tool is the nippex cobalt cutter

29:20

they will cut anything and they last long it's all the way up to eight and even

29:25

ten odd hooks something that'll be able to cut those hooks now one one thing

29:30

that's not real real popular with muskie fishing,

29:33

yet you could probably get away without cutters if you're willing to go barbless.

29:38

Most people still fish with barbs these days, but if you went barbless,

29:42

most likely you probably won't need cutters.

29:44

I still recommend it, period.

29:47

But with these bigger hooks and barbs, they can get stuck in there pretty good.

29:52

And then you've got obviously areas that you do not want to yank a barb cookout,

29:57

even if you're able to get at it and do it. And those Those areas would be anywhere near the gill area.

30:02

Gill arches themselves are where the gills join with the lower jaw there.

30:07

Obviously, in the eye, anything like that, that's where going barbless actually really helps there.

30:13

But if you have a barbed hook, if you're using barbed hooks and they're near

30:16

any critical area like that, if I see a fish coming in before it's even netted.

30:22

And I see a hook in or near an eye or in or near that gill area anywhere,

30:29

immediately my brain, I'm telling somebody we're going to need the hook cutter

30:33

before that fish even gets netted. That just should automatically register if that's what you want to do because

30:39

you definitely don't want to tear back out of any kind of areas like that.

30:44

And then if you do catch, let's say you've got a bait with 5-0 hook,

30:47

hook and you catch a smaller muskie or

30:50

a smaller northern pike or hybrid whatever it is but you

30:53

don't want to damage that fish if in the

30:56

corner of the mouth obviously that's jaw strength right there on a smaller fish

31:00

especially with the bigger barb hooks if you just grab that with the pliers

31:05

and yank it out you may just figure that and we're not saying it's going to

31:09

kill the fish but it could definitely affect it as far as jaw strength and eating

31:13

so you should really be be aware of that.

31:15

Anybody that's going out with bigger baits and bigger hooks should have a bolt

31:20

cutter without any doubt at all. Yeah. And the other thing too is, especially this time of year,

31:25

you alluded to it a little bit earlier, the heat can absolutely kill those fish

31:29

just because it's so hot. And if you're prolonging the fight on the fish or keeping them out of water,

31:36

it's also really detrimental. Can you touch on just some of the best practices for July and August?

31:42

We had about three weeks of, in my opinion, totally unsafe conditions to even fish for them.

31:47

There's something about it. I've never been big on trying to explain the science

31:52

of it because there's a lot of different factors that can come in.

31:55

Originally, we hear about the lactic acid buildup and lower dissolved oxygen in the surface.

32:02

I think fish, when their metabolism is higher, and of course,

32:05

they're cold-blooded critters, so when the water is warmer, the warmer it gets,

32:09

the higher their metabolism is, I think they require a lot more oxygen and there's

32:14

something about fight stress and. These different things. But I just know getting totally beyond the science with

32:21

all the experiences that I've had is in my region, my latitude anyway,

32:27

when I get up to starting the lower 70s, I'm thinking, okay,

32:32

already we need to definitely try and minimize the fight time and time out of the water.

32:38

I tell people that it's most likely

32:42

safe to still fish for them from the

32:44

mid 70s on up to 80 there's no

32:48

there's no exact rules to a certain extent you've

32:51

got to see how the fish are reacting if you're pushing the temperature

32:54

limit the fish are telling you how

32:57

they're dealing with things you can tell by the way they if you're doing it

33:02

and i would definitely not recommend anyone new to the sport start fishing right

33:07

in hot water that that's just really a recipe for disaster you want to definitely

33:11

start in in the lower ranges where the fish are going to be a.

33:16

But after you've handled a few, you can literally see by the way the fish react

33:20

by the time you've unhooked them.

33:24

And if you go through the process of actually holding one up for a photo and

33:28

then dropping them back in the water, they're, in a lot of cases,

33:31

in the entire water temperature. You can just tell. They don't even want to stay upright.

33:36

If you do hold them upright, they're not going to want to paddle off.

33:41

And you got to spend a long time reviving or worse that

33:44

could happen is they may actually die on you

33:46

right there but in in those upper

33:50

70 ranges i personally got to where i do water release only and i refuse to

33:57

have any hold up photos or anything like that a release picture is actually

34:02

is actually just fine and and that's where i generally will actually go barbless

34:07

for or shake them off by the side of the boat.

34:10

In my personal experience in our area, the 80-degree range, and I should specify this.

34:17

Be immediately panicked if you see 78 or 80 degrees in a situation where you've

34:23

got extremely calm water and a blazing sun type of thing. You can get false readings.

34:28

This should be where you figure the upper part of the water column is all in

34:34

that range, which is what we experienced.

34:37

We had the top 15, 20 feet of the water column was up in the high 70s this year in June right away.

34:44

And that's when they can't get out of that temperature, and especially if you

34:48

bring them up from deeper, cooler water into that, it's just really a shock factor.

34:54

Now, I've talked with a lot of people, too, that fish down a little bit further south.

34:58

While it makes sense to me that maybe the 80 plateau is what I've set for myself,

35:04

but in areas like Tennessee or Kentucky or wherever, if the average water temperature

35:10

is higher in general over the course of the summer, it makes sense to me that

35:17

those fish acclimate to that.

35:19

And maybe, I'd never like to say there's absolutely a set temperature for all areas.

35:26

But observe the fish and read the

35:29

fish as the way they're reacting to the

35:31

fight and any handling as the water temperatures are

35:35

warming and frankly it's all it's always told me over the years when it's just

35:39

time to start being careful or time to stop you can tell the way the fish react

35:46

to it and it's just not worth it to me anyway to take a chance on killing the

35:52

fish and then when the The water is real hot.

35:54

You're just going to, I don't care who you are.

35:58

You will not be able to successfully release a lot of these fish.

36:02

The other thing that I should point out is just because you have a fish swim

36:06

away does not mean that fish is okay.

36:09

I found that out the hard way years ago.

36:11

When I was first really experiencing that, I'd been observing the way the fish react.

36:17

I'd had one die, and then I went to a hold-up policy,

36:21

all-water release policy, and I still fished

36:25

a theme lethargic just not recuperating well not

36:28

swimming off strong I had one that swam off after reviving it for a while and

36:35

it swam off it definitely went down it definitely stayed down I hung around

36:40

for a half hour went about my day came back the next day the fish had particular markings,

36:46

I know I found my fish the next day dead.

36:51

And I've found out since, and talking to a lot of guys, biologists about this,

36:56

and then one good buddy of mine, Mark Thorpe, that's been involved in a multitude

37:00

of tracking studies out in Quebec.

37:03

Where they've literally had transmitters in these fish, so they know they can follow them around.

37:08

And in that same temperature range that I was talking about,

37:12

where I say you really got to be careful, they 75 up to 80 a lot

37:17

of these fish that they had swim away would actually

37:21

turn up dead several days later and

37:24

they don't all float that was the scariest thing to

37:27

me this is proven by tag fish

37:30

with transmitters when they stop moving they know something's wrong and they're

37:35

finding them on the bottom according to mark for every fish he said 90 won't

37:40

gas up and flow so for For every fish we see floating during a hot water period dead from mishandling.

37:48

Obviously there's, I'm sure it's not exact, but there's probably eight or nine

37:52

other fish that have perished from mishandling as well.

37:57

So it's a real serious issue, and there's no denying that it occurs.

38:03

If somebody said, Pete, I'm going to give you $50,000 for every dead muskie

38:08

you can find, I'm going out looking for dead muskies whenever the water's the

38:14

hottest. I absolutely know. And every year you see it. Because I have been involved in conservation issues

38:20

for so long, I get maybe a better idea than just about anybody on the planet

38:26

of when things are really going wrong. Because everybody feels like they have to tell me when there's a dead muskie.

38:32

And it was unbelievable in late June and early July.

38:36

I had people from all over. And it even got warm up in Canada.

38:40

Even though Canada's closed, obviously Canadians were still busky fishing up there.

38:46

And it was like, it was coming from everywhere. Found one.

38:49

Found a dead one. Found three floaters here. There's no doubt about it.

38:55

Heat is a real serious thing, and I believe that's pretty much with every species,

39:01

whether it's whitefish or walleyes or bass.

39:04

I mean, it's way more common to see dead fish that obviously died either immediately

39:09

or from delayed mortality during the high heat.

39:12

Yeah, I think the only species that I see that handle it fairly well are carp and catfish.

39:18

Some of your tougher fish like that, they seem to handle it,

39:22

but you're right. I've seen it with Both walleyes and trout are extremely susceptible.

39:26

You catch a trout in the middle of summer and try to release it,

39:29

it's pretty tough, especially if you have to get it out of the water.

39:32

Yeah, so, yeah, no, that's a good point. I think about the inexperience factor

39:37

because you talked about it earlier. You have fish that's already a low-density fish, so there's not very many.

39:44

And so when someone catches one and just they've got it out of the water for

39:48

five minutes to get their social media posts and their picture and then put it back in.

39:54

And then it's dead within a few minutes because it's just totally expired at that point.

39:59

But I think it is important for people to understand the handling procedures

40:04

and what they should be thinking about if they want to have more of them around.

40:08

Yeah, and I've seen over the years, that's why I just stopped doing it. I can't enjoy it.

40:13

It totally ruins it for me. I mean, even a fish that eventually takes off,

40:20

if that fish has a doubt in my mind that it made it, it ruins it.

40:26

That's just like what we were talking about earlier, screwing up and messing up a big fish.

40:32

I'd rather not catch it. It ruins the experience for me, so I just stopped.

40:37

I stopped all filming of muskies with John Gillespie and some of the stuff that

40:43

I still do with my YouTube. I just refuse to do it.

40:47

The other thing is, you're trying to show the joy of fishing when you're doing a fishing show.

40:53

And I can read it in myself.

40:57

When I have doubts about the health of the fish, you can just tell I'm gone. I'm not myself.

41:05

It's really interesting in watching my own videos over the years.

41:08

That was one of the things that convinced me to get away from it.

41:12

It's not a good situation all around. One other thing I should mention,

41:16

too, is the out-of-water handling and any extra handling when you get in those

41:22

in-between range, the higher water temperatures in the upper 70s that I talked about.

41:27

It's so important to minimize that time out of water.

41:32

And a standard procedure in recent years has been getting precise measurements with bump boards.

41:38

It is a very precise way of getting the measurements.

41:43

It's generally done in the boat. And when you're talking critical temperatures,

41:49

it's gotten to be somewhat of a standard procedure with people.

41:53

If you are going to muskie fish in the mid-70s or so, I really recommend not

41:59

getting those measurements anymore, especially if they're in boat.

42:02

Number one is obviously extra time out of the water.

42:05

But what can happen and even with people that are good at handling fish a certain

42:11

percentage of those fish when you go to lay them down on a bump board when they

42:14

lose that vision in the eye. They'll they'll get excited and and react negatively

42:20

and start thrashing at that point especially with people that aren't real used

42:24

to handling muskies and pike they might lose control of that fish if it's a

42:29

warm water period you lose control that fish on the floor of the boat i'll I'll

42:32

guarantee you that even if you do get it the swim way, that's just about an absolute error.

42:37

So it's just really, if you're going to fish in those kind of in-between ranges

42:43

where it's risky, I really highly recommend just don't worry about how long that fish is.

42:49

It's really not going to change anything about your experience.

42:52

And there's certainly no need to know down to a half an inch.

42:56

There's floating rulers. There's lots of different ways. if you've handled quite a

43:00

few fish frankly you can get yeah quite closely

43:03

anyway but but boy the trend of

43:06

getting exact measurements is fine i understand but

43:10

you really want to avoid that because it's just extra time

43:13

and extra handling when the water gets warm yeah i

43:16

saw a guy he had a kind of a neat system he took

43:18

a piece of i think it was one inch diameter pvc

43:22

pipe and he made it i think it was like 65 inches

43:25

long or something like that and he filled it with foam so it would

43:28

float and then he would set it into the water

43:31

next to the fish just to get a general idea that that

43:34

would serve the purpose just fine oh it

43:37

does yeah yeah floating 60 inch

43:40

for a whole bunch of years ago i best thing i always keep a floating ruler in

43:44

the boat if i happen to have somebody that hasn't caught i'm really excited

43:47

about actually seeing it i usually end up teasing them because i tell them it's

43:53

41 or whatever i think it is and then we measure it and it's within an inch or what I said anyway,

44:00

but that is definitely a much safer way to do it.

44:03

And that way the fish is in the water upright, the position they're supposed to be, and.

44:09

You're still going to be able to get a measurement and you're not doing any

44:13

damage to the fish that way. Yeah. And that for those of us out here in the West, it's really important to

44:19

have a successful release because we have sterile muskies.

44:23

They're hybrids and they put them in and they live for, what,

44:27

10, 11 years and they die. They have a fairly short lifespan.

44:31

So getting those fish successfully back into the water is very important here

44:36

just because back where you are, they can spawn.

44:38

But here they can't so it's it's even

44:41

more critical in wyoming utah montana

44:44

colorado places that have tiger muskie

44:47

populations to have that successful release as well

44:50

because if we don't have any fish oh sure yeah that takes a long time yeah you

44:56

know in a lot of cases the further north you go the longer it takes the lifespan's

45:01

longer but those uh so's the growth If you're taking a 50-inch muskie out of

45:06

the picture in the northern latitude,

45:09

you're talking 20 years. Yeah, you might have a fish in the water to replace it either by natural reproduction

45:14

or stocking, but it's 20 years before it gets that big again.

45:18

And obviously, we all would like to catch a bigger one.

45:20

So, yeah, it takes a long time, and it's really important.

45:24

And I should point out that I'm aging myself here, but I started when Catch and Release.

45:33

Hadn't even occurred the first four year of guiding

45:36

four years of guiding it was just standard procedure we

45:40

kind of thought any differently our size limit was 32 inches i finally wised

45:45

up because of a buddy from musky sink but and we started releasing them it's

45:49

embarrassing to tell that story he actually suggested release them i believe

45:53

you don't release those things and he says would you rather catch a big one

45:56

yeah i'd like to catch a big. And they get a little older when you let them go, and they get bigger.

46:02

And embarrassingly, I hadn't really thought of that. That's a pretty good idea.

46:06

I started releasing the fish, but boy, I'll tell you what, growing up in those

46:11

days with a 32-inch size limit.

46:14

I can tell you that very few fish snuck through because it was an absolute rarity

46:20

to get a fish over 40 inches in those days.

46:24

That was a monster. And once in a while you get the freakfish that I think in

46:28

those days, those were just females that for whatever reason were wired into

46:32

fishing open water or staying in open water and feeding on open water forage.

46:37

So you'd get some of those fish that would stay out there and they wouldn't

46:40

get targeted because people didn't know about fishing deep water ranges and

46:44

suspended fish in those days. So a few would make it but that size limit

46:49

to catch your legal killing

46:53

fish from about 32 to 34 35 and the majority of the fish never got much bigger

47:00

than that because we killed them that's just what we saw you and it was horrible

47:05

comparatively especially size structure wise in those days And when catch and release started,

47:13

there was no denying that people around here that were like,

47:16

no way, I'm not going to do it at first. Even the most hardheaded had to admit it after a while. It was a gradual process.

47:24

But you just started seeing it work. And then they started installing some 40-inch

47:29

size limits in some places. And next thing, there was quite a few of those 41, 42s, but not much over.

47:36

It was interesting. And it all came together. either some higher size limits

47:40

and, to this day, pretty much 100% catch-and-release mentality.

47:46

And that's why the topic now that's the most important is most people are willing

47:50

to release, but they aren't necessarily aware of how to do it properly,

47:54

the tools and everything we've talked about, and then that you really got to

47:57

be careful in that hot water. If we get those things solved, then you're still going to lose fish.

48:02

There's no way that we'll ever get to the point of 100% success with catch and

48:08

release because some fish are going to swallow a bait and then once in a blue

48:12

moon, I've even seen that in the cold water.

48:15

I'm not sure if it's a heart attack or what it is, but I've had a couple of

48:19

fish over the years that showed up dead.

48:21

I'm not sure what even happened to them. You get them in the net and they're not bleeding.

48:26

I don't know what it is, frankly. But apparently they can experience a heart

48:31

attack or something like that as well, because I've had it happen twice.

48:34

And one time it was 34-degree water in late November when I had to break ice to get out on the lake.

48:40

There was no damage to that fish at all.

48:43

And you could see something. I remember thinking something was wrong when I

48:49

got the fish in the net looking at its eyes. No problem getting the bait out, pull it out of there, and it was gone.

48:57

Wow yeah and things have changed

49:00

over the last i would say 10 years and

49:03

you've seen this too around the country as far as

49:05

muskies are concerned there are a lot more i guess you

49:09

would say strict regulations as far as lengths what

49:12

the size limit is and here in wyoming up until gosh i think it was four years

49:18

ago danny he really pushed to to change the regulations because that was you

49:23

could could have three per day and they had to be over 30 inches long.

49:27

Tiger muskies, they grow really fast.

49:29

And if you get a guy who knows what he's doing on tigers on a good day, can catch three.

49:34

And if he keeps coming back and doing that over and over again,

49:37

you don't have a tiger muskie fishery. And it's a bad deal on a couple of fronts.

49:41

It's bad for the anglers because the fish are gone.

49:44

And then it's also bad for the biologists who had them stocked to control white

49:48

suckers and carp because now the product is gone.

49:52

And so it's a double whammy on the taxpayer and on the fishermen,

49:56

but I feel like it's getting a lot better now in Wyoming.

49:59

They have to be a minimum of 36 inches and you can only have one.

50:03

I know Utah, I believe, I think it was this last year, a couple of years ago,

50:07

they went to a catch and release only. And it's been good to see that just because if you want to catch a monster,

50:13

you got to put them back, just like you're saying. Man.

50:16

The other thing I wanted to ask is what are the biggest do's and don'ts of muskie fishing?

50:21

And I know for me, I learned the hard way. I told the story about pulling the

50:26

bait out of one's mouth earlier. So now I try to remind myself, don't set the hook until you feel them.

50:33

Don't set the hook till you feel them. But what are some other things that, you know, for novice muskie fishermen that

50:39

when they do get that follow or when they do have that fish strike,

50:42

What are some do's and don'ts? He's loved to bow any other water fish, the boat, without a doubt,

50:48

figure eight, or either way, change of direction, which I believe is what makes the figure eights,

50:55

or old work by the side of the boat, I believe it's a reaction,

50:59

just my guess, that the prey, now you're there and you're eating me,

51:06

and it's trying to get away. And that's the response that you want to try and trigger in that fish.

51:12

That's why going fast in circles on a figure eight, I think,

51:16

is really what makes things happen. It's an evasive maneuver by prey, and it'll trigger the fish in a lot of cases to strike,

51:25

seeing a follow though polarized glasses is

51:28

an absolute and training yourself to be watching

51:32

behind and below the lure and looking for any kind of color changes or anything

51:37

that could possibly indicate a fish is coming and depending on the lure type

51:42

that you have that's one variable a lot of people don't really consider is every

51:48

lure is a little different on how you might be be able to trigger a fish.

51:52

But one thing I always tell people is with every different lure type,

51:56

you should be able to answer this question in your head at that point.

52:01

What are you going to do if you see a follow?

52:05

Try and trigger a fish because it's extremely

52:08

important one thing that's maybe the best over the years

52:11

for me is is the zigzag type maneuver before

52:14

i even get to the boat if i know that fish is

52:17

coming it's very effective with spinners crankbaits you can't do it quite as

52:22

well generally with a jerkbait but you want to do something to trigger that

52:26

fish make it think you're aware of it and you're trying to get away or the lure

52:30

is trying to get away having an idea of something Even if it's wrong,

52:34

it's real important because people tend to freeze otherwise if they don't have

52:39

that idea in the head of what they're going to trigger that fish.

52:42

And when I hit people with that, in a lot of cases, they can't answer it.

52:46

They'll put on a jerk bait or they'll put on it. What are you going to do?

52:49

Are you going to give it a wild jerk and pause?

52:53

Are you going to twitch it three times and pause? Are you going to speed up? What are you going to do?

52:58

In a lot of cases, people don't have that answer. or

53:01

so that's one thing to do in your own mind and that

53:05

there's so many different variables that you have some

53:08

baits are way more buoyant than others that can be a real effective

53:11

thing by the way to to stop a lure and

53:13

let it float up but if it doesn't float up or it's neutral but anyway you got

53:19

to have an idea what you're going to do because if you can get that fish to

53:22

trigger before you get to the boat your odds actually go off it's generally

53:26

better to get them to hit out there and you'll be able to see it,

53:31

get a good hook set, and you'll be able to fight the fish a little bit better.

53:34

So generally speeding up is going to be a better thing with a topwater lure or a spinner type bait.

53:42

If you've got a real buoyant bait, in a lot of cases some real erratic twitches

53:48

and then just killing the bait and letting it slowly rise up will be effective as well.

53:53

But then be thinking all the time, if that doesn't work, it.

53:58

Obviously, then you may want to try and make a real fast maneuver towards the boat from there.

54:03

And then as far as the, there's a million things I could say,

54:07

but the figure eights and O's should be practiced by the side of the boat.

54:12

That's extremely important too. Now you have, obviously, crankbaits,

54:15

you've got all different types of lifts. So there's different, every lure is different in the speed you're able to maintain

54:23

in the circle and the amount of line from the rod tip to the lure.

54:28

In a lot of cases, just the leader is all you need.

54:31

But in a lot of cases, too, a deeper diving bait, you may want to have a two-feet

54:37

line total out, just the way that bait swings in the circle.

54:41

But you should practice your boat side maneuvers, especially if it's a lure

54:46

that you haven't used before. Get an idea of what you would do.

54:51

Imagine that muskie is already there before you get in that situation and you

54:56

don't have any time to think. And especially if you haven't done it a whole lot, you're likely to freak out.

55:01

Having practiced the circle and the eight by the side of the boat before you

55:06

get a fish to come, it's just huge. It really is. make sure you can do a

55:11

good circle or an eight with the bucktail without

55:15

those blades stopping the corners should be

55:18

as wide as possible practice all of

55:21

that when you're doing a circle maneuver with your bait make sure you come in

55:25

close to the gunnel so you're able to stretch out as far as possible on those

55:30

corners and make a big circle the corners are generally key that's where the

55:36

the strikes are going to occur is on the corner.

55:39

And if you have not practiced it with the different lure types.

55:43

Have the lure fly right out of the water if you're not

55:46

aware of coming close to the gunwale you're gonna

55:50

stretch i've seen this a million times people see the fish

55:53

coming they don't come close to the gunwale and

55:57

they're excited and they just start pulling the lure and they get

55:59

stretched way out over on the side and the fish hasn't

56:02

hit yet and they just come straight back or

56:06

stop they're just they're basically handcuffed they got

56:08

no place to go fish doesn't know what to do the fish is embarrassed the angler's

56:13

aware it's not a good deal you gotta you really want to practice the eights

56:19

and o's before a fish comes with every lure and that way you have an idea what

56:24

you can and can't do and it really makes a difference,

56:28

i guess i'll tell you this story it's kind of embarrassing to tell the musky

56:32

legend this story but I'm going to tell you anyway, but Danny took me fishing

56:36

this one time and we, I, it was the day that I caught my first muskie.

56:41

So it was a successful day, but this part of the story is a little bit embarrassing.

56:45

So we were fishing and I was trying this big spinner bait.

56:49

And the one thing I had not learned yet was to pay attention,

56:54

like you said, to what's below behind and watching your lure come up to you

56:59

as you're coming to the boat to watch for follows and whatnot.

57:02

And I just was in typical Wyoming fishing boy, just throw and retrieve and not

57:06

really paying attention. And so he said something to me and I picked up my bait out of the water and

57:12

I turned to look at him and a tiger muskie jumped over my Minn Kota trolling

57:17

motor out of the water to try to grab my bait because I hadn't left it in the

57:21

water in front of him and I hadn't been paying attention and he missed,

57:25

but it scared the crap out of me.

57:28

And it wasn't a big one. It was probably a mid 30 inch fish,

57:32

but it scared the crap out of me and it got my attention.

57:36

I'll tell you that. so after that it

57:39

was about 20 minutes later i actually caught my first one

57:42

on a figure eight on that lure next to the boat but it

57:45

was just so funny that fish wanted that lure so bad

57:47

he jumped all the way over my trolling motor out of the water it's just insane

57:52

and that's it yeah and they're so athletic like they're just an incredible fish

57:59

i don't think i've ever seen a fish with the the speed that a muskie has.

58:05

And I don't know if you can talk about that a little bit, but I've seen them

58:08

cover a 10-foot area in a millisecond.

58:13

That's actually why in a lot of cases, people's reaction to seeing a fish coming

58:20

is they want to make it easier for them, right?

58:23

And the worst reaction. And that's why the speed up is for moving baits, I guess, in general.

58:29

Like a button something i tell people to

58:32

get sure and if that fish starts coming throw

58:35

it you can because you absolutely cannot keep it away and if you trigger that

58:40

response if you get them to that next level they will get it as long as and

58:46

that's where the practice is though that's where the control practicing that

58:51

fast figure eight and being able to control it is so key.

58:55

But that is really what will trigger them in a lot of cases.

58:58

And, yeah, when it comes to speed, they've got plenty of it. There's no doubt.

59:02

If they want it, they will get it.

59:04

And it's probably one of the most effective ways to get them.

59:08

Now, that sounds exactly the opposite with certain baits, especially floaters.

59:13

But sometimes killing it and letting it rise will be the deal as well.

59:17

But if there's a most consistent thing to try with any lure,

59:21

it's just flat speed. I've seen it work with soft plastics as well.

59:27

The general reaction in the figure eight with those would be I'll generally

59:31

keep them erratic and watch and see how that fish is responding.

59:36

In a lot of cases, you can get them to eat it right after a jerk and a pause, and they'll do that.

59:42

But if nothing else is working, I've had it work with bulldogs and different

59:49

baits where you just all of a sudden decide, okay, I'm going to treat this like a bucktail.

59:55

And you don't twitch or do anything. You just rip it around in a circle as fast as you can.

1:00:00

And all of a sudden, you see that attitude of that fish change.

1:00:03

You can almost see them get stupid, right, just looking at their eyes. It's a neat feeling.

1:00:09

I've called the shot a lot of times, rarely been wrong, where right before it

1:00:14

happens, I'll be like, that one's going to do it.

1:00:16

You can just see it click in, man. And they're, especially when it's that speed

1:00:22

deal, it triggers them there. You might not get them. They're going to try.

1:00:25

There is no way they're not going to do it. And I got a funny story.

1:00:30

I stole a 52-incher from a guy one time.

1:00:34

I've never seen... Fish going that fast and that excited and

1:00:39

what was really weird about it is we probably hadn't

1:00:42

seen a fish in four hours with fall and dreary conditions

1:00:46

for muskies anyway sunny no wind and

1:00:49

all of a sudden this fish comes up out of the blue on the

1:00:52

crankbait it looks pretty active and this

1:00:55

guy just got excited he was actually a darn good fish

1:00:58

but he did exactly what i was talking about

1:01:01

with not doing the corners he wasn't really staying close

1:01:04

to the gunnel and he'd race off

1:01:07

to the side and then he'd basically just do

1:01:10

a 180 and come right back and i've got a spinner bait that was out three quarters

1:01:16

of the way yet i'm watching all of this and i'm coaching them and i'm like corners

1:01:21

you got to go wider and this muskie they usually if they miss once they They

1:01:26

generally get embarrassed and swim away. Not this one.

1:01:29

He got a mouthful of water. I should say she, I'm sure.

1:01:33

But it missed on the far corner at least three times. I was trying.

1:01:40

About the time he'd come to the end of his rope, and then he'd do the 180 and

1:01:45

come back, four fish had missed.

1:01:48

And it was so funny. I'm like, I didn't actually say it, but I had been coaching

1:01:52

him. And I see here's my spinnerbait coming, and I just swung that right in front of him.

1:01:57

All of a sudden, I just saw that, and I just swung it right in front of his

1:02:02

nose. That's what you get. Yep, that's the way it goes. So if you could share just like one of your top

1:02:09

stories of musky fishing success, maybe your proudest moment, what would it be?

1:02:15

I like to ask hard questions on here.

1:02:18

Yeah, that is a tough one. and it was really the proudest moment.

1:02:22

My buddy wasn't all that excited about it. This was actually more of a fluke.

1:02:26

I found out there was an individual rock a few days later with,

1:02:31

the reason I got this fish. But a lot of folks may be aware of the name Dick Pearson.

1:02:36

He's an icon of mine, one of the pioneers of Canadian shield fishing.

1:02:41

And he and Doug Johnson were the guys that you started hearing about muskies

1:02:46

years ago, fisherman days. And both guys are just tremendous pioneers. And I've been blessed over the years

1:02:53

to fish with both of them and get to know both of them real well.

1:02:55

And I was fishing with Dick Pearson up in Canada, and we're exploring a new lake,

1:02:59

and we're fishing this rock bar kind of

1:03:02

a long thin piece and we got a big fish on one

1:03:06

end of the reef and one thing that i'll suggest

1:03:09

just to quickly digress people always

1:03:12

ask me do you come back on a fish right away or not

1:03:15

and i generally try and make a

1:03:18

judgment on whether or not a window is opening

1:03:21

or closing and

1:03:25

that's just recent activity type

1:03:28

of thing so in other words if you already had

1:03:32

somewhat of a window and then you raise a

1:03:35

really big fish after 20 minutes

1:03:39

or so or a fish you want to catch doesn't matter how big

1:03:42

i common sense tells me that i'm probably getting to the end of the feeding

1:03:46

window in that case i'm probably going to leave that fish alone because i think

1:03:51

i'm just going to educate it to all my lures now on the other hand if we've

1:03:55

had a slow period and i feel like we're just coming into it then i'm generally going to.

1:04:01

Back at that fish right away in this particular

1:04:05

case i felt like weather wise and stuff with dick

1:04:07

we're like before we leave we better go back on

1:04:10

that fish and give him a try funny thing is we

1:04:13

never saw that fish but i had a trolling motor that

1:04:16

was giving me fits at the time and not going very

1:04:19

well so i it was one that you could just lift up so

1:04:22

i said to pearson i said dick just just lift that

1:04:25

motor up and i'll idle over there we'll get a little north

1:04:28

of the fish and we'll come back at him from a different angle and

1:04:31

he did that he's standing up there and uh

1:04:33

on the deck holding my trolling motor up and i start

1:04:37

idling along and i think i'm idling i guess i might as well fish i had a bucktail

1:04:41

and i pitched it out the back of the boat i bet that blade spun about two seconds

1:04:46

and i had a i believe it was a 51 anyway they hit it immediately wow and he's

1:04:53

Standing there holding that trolling motor. Oh, man.

1:04:58

Here's the thrashing back there. And I got this great big fish.

1:05:02

And then he went into this routine about, I see how you are.

1:05:06

I see how you are. Get me holding this trolling motor. And then you're fishing.

1:05:12

Yeah, I bet you'll never live that one down. I'll tell you what,

1:05:16

it was a long three days, the next three days fishing with him.

1:05:19

He reminded me about that about every 10 minutes, I think.

1:05:23

That's what good fishing buddies do they they don't let those things go.

1:05:30

One last thing that i know you've got things to get to but the passion for this

1:05:36

podcast is really about getting our young people and for me like my spouse and

1:05:41

different people like that more involved in fishing and really trying to mentor the next generation so,

1:05:46

If you could just give any kind of advice to our listeners on how to maybe approach

1:05:51

getting somebody to be involved in muskie or pike fishing, that would be awesome.

1:05:56

Oh, yeah. And to get good at the handling aspect and be aware of those things

1:06:00

and keep the fisheries healthy, because there's one thing about it.

1:06:03

If you're going to get anybody involved, young to old, it's a lot more fun when the bobber's down.

1:06:08

That is truly all about the health of the fisheries. You can't catch stuff that isn't there.

1:06:13

So that's real important as well. But then the other thing I would say is,

1:06:17

you know, read the fish or the fish.

1:06:21

Read the people to a certain extent, like I talk about reading the fish.

1:06:25

You're going to have, when you get especially young people out for the first

1:06:29

time and be aware of their enjoyment of things,

1:06:34

it's real easy as an adult and someone that's really into fishing to expect

1:06:40

the people you're taking out to think like you and enjoy things like you do.

1:06:45

And in some cases, it's all real good intentions because you really want them

1:06:50

to get into it. You really want them to catch a fish.

1:06:53

You know, in most cases, more than you would like to catch a fish yourself.

1:06:57

You want to show them a good time and get them into it. But you really got to

1:07:01

be aware of, you know, what the fish activity is and what the tolerance is of the person.

1:07:07

And if the kid is wired like me, the way I've been all my life,

1:07:12

the little girl I talked about at the start of the show that was on the dock on her own.

1:07:16

But you get a person like that out there, they might go all day and want to

1:07:20

fish even harder than you. But remember that it should be an enjoyable experience.

1:07:25

Make sure there's plenty to do with kids. It's always good to make sure they

1:07:28

got plenty of liquids to drink and snacks. and just try and get them action,

1:07:34

but definitely do not push things too far.

1:07:38

That's one of the biggest mistakes I've seen over the years,

1:07:41

and I was very aware from a guiding standpoint.

1:07:45

Because a lot of people were trying to get their spouse or their kids or whatever

1:07:50

into fishing by guiding.

1:07:52

And there were a lot of cases where I even suggested, you could just see that

1:07:57

in a lot of cases, they didn't want the kid or the new person to be able to take a break.

1:08:02

They weren't really reading the enjoyment level and the intensity level.

1:08:07

And definitely you don't want to push them far if a bite's tough or something

1:08:12

like that. You might want them to catch a fish, but you wanting them to in the

1:08:17

reality of the situation is a totally different thing.

1:08:20

I obviously extend it when everything's going good, the fishing's going good,

1:08:24

the person's enjoying it and still into it.

1:08:27

But when they stop having a good time, it's time to stop.

1:08:31

That's really the way I've always tried to deal with it.

1:08:34

Now, I've got a son who's 20 now, and he still likes fishing with Dad.

1:08:40

And I gotta say I'm fairly proud of

1:08:43

the way I handled it over the years he he's not wired like me

1:08:45

he enjoys it but he's not wired

1:08:48

to be super into it and that's one

1:08:51

thing that I saw early on and you know he's at college now we don't see each

1:08:56

other all that much but he's he still really likes to go fishing and enjoys

1:09:01

it very much he's not a he's not an absolute hardcore so we go out and And I

1:09:07

guess we know one another now at this stage,

1:09:09

but one of the things I know I would have turned them off early on,

1:09:13

if I would have done what I felt like I wanted to do at the time,

1:09:18

maybe a rabbit angler, I would read my son.

1:09:21

And when he wasn't into it anymore, I'd say, okay, that's enough. I'd.

1:09:26

In some cases, I might drop them off and let them go do his thing and go back

1:09:29

out. But I would never push it too far.

1:09:33

And if it's going good, let them enjoy it. And if it's not going all that good

1:09:37

and they're not into it anymore, definitely don't force it on them.

1:09:41

That to me is real important. And I've seen it in a lot of cases,

1:09:46

like I say, in the guiding days and stuff like that.

1:09:49

Just make sure it's an enjoyable experience.

1:09:52

And it just means an awful lot to me. Yeah. So for the audience,

1:09:57

if they want to get more information on how to fish for muskies and more information on you, where do they go?

1:10:03

And for those of you, yeah, for those of you who are interested in some of these

1:10:08

topics, like on handling muskies, what kind of gear to use, you can watch videos

1:10:12

of Pete going through step-by-step what you should have, what you need.

1:10:16

So definitely check out PeteMaina.com so that you can get that information.

1:10:20

And Pete again thank you so much for coming on today I

1:10:23

know I'm extremely grateful to have you

1:10:26

on as somebody who I've been following and watching for

1:10:29

around 20 years now it's just super awesome to

1:10:32

to have you on here and get to visit with you and and

1:10:36

listen to you share your expertise with the rest of us so thanks again for coming

1:10:39

on all right and for yeah yeah absolutely and for all the listeners please again

1:10:46

don't forget to check us out at ragcastoutdoors.com If you want to help the

1:10:51

podcast and help spread it out to your friends, please go and share and subscribe.

1:10:55

And we will come back again, hopefully shortly, and hear stories from David

1:11:00

on his Northwest Territories hikes and hopefully hear a success story.

1:11:04

So we will see you guys again next time.

1:11:09

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1:11:13

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Music.