0:00

Questlof Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:04

What's Up?

0:04

This is Sugar Steve from questloff Supreme.

0:07

Anybody who knows this podcast is well aware

0:09

that our interviews can last for hours, so

0:11

often we split them into two parts. It

0:14

also gives listeners a suspenseful reason

0:16

to come back next week or check their podcast

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feed for more episodes. Back in twenty

0:20

twenty two, we sat down with La Reid for what

0:22

became a rare three part interview.

0:25

The third and final part of La Read's epic

0:27

QLs interview covers the founding of La

0:29

Face Records and some rarely discussed

0:31

history surrounding outcasts and TLC.

0:34

Please rate, like, and subscribe

0:36

to this on your podcast feeds, check

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back for new episodes, and follow our new

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YouTube page at QLs.

0:45

At the time in eighty eight eighty

0:47

nine, I wouldn't have thought, Hey,

0:51

Atlanta is a great place to

0:53

build my empire. What

0:55

did you see in Atlanta that we

0:57

didn't see? Because at the time, the only artist I knew

0:59

that lived in Atlanta was People Bryson.

1:02

And then you changed everything. You changed

1:05

the whole culture of a city.

1:06

So why did you choose Atlanta

1:09

and how did you choose Atlanta?

1:11

Why and how?

1:13

It was a combination. It was myself, Babyface

1:15

and Pebbles. All three of us were in the studio

1:19

on Kwanga Boulevard, in a studio called Ilumba,

1:22

and we collectively decided that we

1:24

wanted to leave. We wanted to move

1:26

out of LA for various

1:28

reasons.

1:29

Okay, why.

1:30

One was we're concerned.

1:32

About earthquakes seriously, and

1:35

that sounds kind of crazy, it's

1:38

real. We were concerned about cost

1:40

of living and we

1:42

had just started to make some money and we wanted

1:44

to know how to stretch that right. And

1:48

so the idea

1:50

was, let's and we just come

1:52

off tour, like we just finished that last tour

1:54

and we've been all over the country, and we

1:57

didn't think La was like the only place on Earth.

1:59

So we had a conversation about moving.

2:03

So we put a map on the wall. We had

2:05

a very serious conversation about.

2:06

Boo, yeah, that's what to say. You put a map out.

2:08

Very serious conversation.

2:10

We put a map on the wall, a

2:13

map of the United States, and first

2:16

we looked at everyone's hometown.

2:17

Where should we go? Should we go to the Bay Area

2:19

where Pebbles is from she

2:22

was from Atlanta, She's from the Bay.

2:24

We were like, nah, wow,

2:26

the Indianapolis where babyfaces from

2:31

Cincinnati where I'm from.

2:33

Nah. Then we

2:35

were like New York and

2:39

then Kenny.

2:39

We thought about our experiences being in

2:41

New York and writing, and we were like, we

2:44

don't write that well in New York. Now we

2:48

got it. Dallas,

2:51

big homes, big great lifestyle.

2:58

One of us, and I don't remember who said Atlanta,

3:01

and all I remember all of us saying yes,

3:04

because Atlanta. If you're on tour,

3:07

when you go through Atlanta, it's like

3:10

the Mecca.

3:11

Right.

3:12

Everything was like upscale. It

3:14

was like everything from the

3:17

pre Olympics. Oh yeah,

3:20

this is eighty eight eighty

3:23

eight Yeah, I mean Olympic they

3:25

didn't have skyscrapers.

3:26

I mean you guys and Bobby Brown, I'll never understand,

3:29

Like we all like, why would y'all

3:31

do that?

3:32

We picked Atlanta because we knew we

3:34

could live. Well, I'm being honest, right,

3:37

we just knew we could live. We went down

3:39

looked at some houses and the

3:41

house prices, the real estate prices,

3:44

like, we were.

3:45

Like, we can live, we can live well down here.

3:47

This place is dope, So we

3:50

I called Irving Azos, who was running

3:52

MCA at the time, who

3:55

we thought we were going to make the La Face deal with.

3:57

And I said, Irving, I have an idea. That

4:00

what's the idea?

4:01

I said, how's the South motown

4:04

up the South the Face

4:06

Records Atlanta, Georgia, And

4:09

he said, where do I sign? And

4:12

that's how it started. And he gave us

4:14

the seed money to move, booked

4:17

the planes, booked.

4:18

The hotels, found us a lawyer, found us

4:20

a real.

4:21

Estate agent, and we went down and

4:23

we literally stayed there until we

4:25

found homes.

4:28

And where did Clive Davis come in the picture?

4:30

Irv Irving's quit working

4:33

at MCA. Oh,

4:35

he left the company?

4:36

Right?

4:37

So enter Clarence Avon, Yes, godfather,

4:40

So Clarence Avon who had always been

4:42

there, right. Clarence says, well,

4:45

if you're not doing it with Irving, then

4:48

I'm going to introduce you to Jerry Moss,

4:51

David Geffen and

4:54

all of the various players. And we met everybody,

4:57

and everybody was interested. Moe Austin, I

5:00

met everybody.

5:01

How did you get out the contract though you signed

5:03

on the dotted line.

5:04

No, no, we didn't sign anything.

5:06

We just got producer advances

5:08

because we made all of our hits at MCA,

5:11

so we had a lot of money in the pipeline. So

5:13

he just basically gave us

5:15

the money that we

5:17

were Oh.

5:17

You didn't have to recoup it back or repay back

5:20

or.

5:20

We never signed one thing. No, wow,

5:23

No, we didn't sign anything. We just and

5:25

it was a lot of money, you know, especially

5:28

at that time, I can imagine, yeah, you know.

5:31

So Clams introduced us to everybody.

5:33

And when I was eighteen years

5:35

old, I read this book by this

5:37

great record executive, Clive Davis,

5:39

the Yellow Book, and I don't

5:42

even know why. I don't even know why, eighteen

5:44

nineteen years old, why am I reading about a record

5:46

executive. I didn't even know why. But

5:49

there was a photo of him sitting at the Beverly

5:51

Hills Hotel pool slide in the family

5:53

with sliced stone, and I was like, I.

5:55

Want to be that guy right, not

5:58

sly, I want to be the guy sitting next. This is a lot,

6:00

right, So.

6:03

This is my big opportunity to meet the great

6:05

Clive Davis.

6:07

And Clarence set it

6:09

up.

6:10

We walked into the bungalow at the Beverly

6:13

Hills Hotel, to meet Clive Davis,

6:15

and my mind was already made up. I was

6:17

like, I'm doing this with Clive, but I

6:19

couldn't say that. I couldn't play, I couldn't

6:21

show the hand, and I didn't actually know

6:24

how Face felt about it at the time. You know, a

6:26

New Face really wanted to work on Whitney, so

6:29

it just all felt right. We

6:31

thought we were going to do it with David Geffen, who

6:34

said yes to our deal, and

6:36

then he came back and said, actually,

6:40

no, I don't want to do it. And his

6:42

reasoning was, I'm not committed

6:44

to the genre. It wasn't bad at all. It

6:46

was very honest. He was like, I'm a rock. He

6:49

ain't any waste that time.

6:50

He's like, that's right, he

6:53

wasn't.

6:55

That's what I was thinking.

6:56

I was like, oh

6:58

wow. Now I'm just thinking, like wow, I could

7:00

have signed to the label. I could have signed a Little

7:02

Face in nineteen ninety three Wendy

7:05

Goldstein. It just went to like,

7:08

now I magine the alternate lifetime

7:10

where Outcast needs help and the

7:12

Roots are the world my god, and

7:15

the Roots are the one that's

7:18

hot.

7:18

That's actually really hot.

7:20

That's time, man,

7:22

I have a while we all have a very specific

7:25

outcast question. So I

7:27

want you to talk about the differences

7:30

in working with between Dre and

7:32

Big Boy. I really study. Big Boy is

7:34

somebody that I really look at, and I look

7:36

at a lot of the moves in his career and

7:38

they seem to be a direct reflection of

7:41

you know, you know, his relationship

7:44

with you. So I wanted to know he

7:47

talks. He's always spoken very highly and stuff

7:50

much, you know what I mean? Yeah, So, like, how

7:52

have you how's that relationship between those two

7:54

guys over the years, how's that developed?

7:56

It's always been really good.

7:58

And the truth is, I

8:01

think it might have been one of my better relationships

8:04

because I didn't know their music as

8:06

well, Like like I couldn't.

8:08

Tamper, do you know what I mean?

8:09

Like if usc makes a record, I have a very strong

8:12

opinion about it, or anybody

8:14

you know usher makes a record, I have a very

8:16

strong opinion about it. But Withoutkas

8:19

there were such originals that

8:21

if they felt passionately about it, my job

8:23

was to be a servant leader instead

8:26

of being instead

8:28

of meddling.

8:29

I have a question, Okay, am I the only

8:32

one that thinks this fonte as

8:34

much as I love Elevators.

8:38

Okay, dude in nineteen

8:40

ninety six, to make your first

8:43

single a very

8:45

slow temple song that's like eighty

8:47

eight bpms, not

8:50

not conducive to what I believe

8:52

dance culture was in.

8:54

But that was in the South Atlanta.

8:56

That yeah, that was such

8:58

a song.

9:00

South for us, man, that was nah with shit, it

9:02

wasn't missed for us. We ran the fuck out of Elevators,

9:04

like immediately.

9:05

Because when I got that, like by that point, I was

9:07

like getting serviced by DJs and whatnot. And

9:09

yes, as a as a as a Northeasterner

9:12

like I was, I was in the

9:15

groove of where hip hop was in that period

9:17

between like ninety

9:19

two bpms and one hundred bpms, like very

9:21

fast pitt And when

9:24

I put Elevators on, I just stared at

9:26

the record, like, you know, this is

9:28

so slow and space.

9:30

And how am I gonna wake make this work

9:32

in my DJ sets?

9:34

And yet y'all went with it like

9:36

there was no fear whatsoever.

9:39

I actually didn't know one way or another, like

9:41

to be honest with you, right, Andre and Big

9:43

Boy Enrico Way, they

9:45

came to the office and they were like, this is it this is

9:48

it, this is it, And I knew Andre. What I

9:50

did know is that that Andre verse was

9:54

we all knew that. I mean that was like seriously,

9:56

like, damn, he's good. He's really

9:59

good. But as a song

10:01

I probably had the same opinion you did. I was like, this

10:03

is a little slow. It's

10:06

not that clear either, you know, like it

10:08

wasn't it wasn't. It wasn't sparkling.

10:11

It was dark, right, And

10:15

so I had the same could But I really believed

10:17

in I really believed in Rico

10:20

way like Rico Waite was the leader,

10:22

and he was he was my ears,

10:25

my eyes and my ears to everything

10:28

that we were doing in that

10:30

world of outcast, the

10:32

goodie mob and even

10:35

you know, parental advisory is yes,

10:40

right, they were in the crew as well.

10:42

So I just listened to Rico and

10:45

it worked. And after it

10:48

worked, my relationship with

10:50

them was you guys, make your own decisions.

10:52

If you want my opinion, I'll give you my

10:54

opinion, but I'm not giving you my opinion unless

10:56

you ask me.

10:58

Yeah, is that still your relationship would be? Boy?

11:00

Y'all still to this day

11:03

do what he says.

11:07

Okay, So, without Rico's presence

11:09

on speaker box. How

11:12

do you trust your instincts? I mean, by this

11:14

point, they're they're now a marquee

11:17

act, they're you're a listers

11:20

and without the muscle

11:22

of organized noise sort of under

11:24

them. I mean, even though they're there somewhat,

11:28

How shaky was it to navigate

11:31

a double album of

11:33

clearly two different

11:36

sides right, and

11:39

not only make it work, but make it one of their most and

11:42

to take them on stage. I was there

11:44

that night. I couldn't believe that shit. How

11:47

hard not hard, or how worrisome were

11:50

you to like go with your gut

11:52

being the I'm assuming that you're now

11:55

manning the ship for at least that album,

11:57

that you didn't have to go there to guide you.

12:00

So things that kind of changed.

12:03

They really grew intoday. They really

12:05

had grown into it. I mean this was after Stink

12:07

On YOUA, right, and which

12:09

was a massive success for them,

12:13

And I mean the

12:15

real story was it

12:17

was big boys solo album, right,

12:20

and it was complete and

12:23

it was done and I

12:26

heard I like the way you moved, so

12:29

I felt confident that we had like a big

12:31

single. And

12:34

Andre called because they weren't working together.

12:37

I mean, this is fairly common knowledge.

12:39

I think they weren't working together. And

12:42

Andre called the office,

12:46

read when you're dropping

12:48

Big Boys album.

12:50

I gave him the date.

12:52

He's like, so,

12:54

if I want to drop an album

12:57

with that.

12:58

How much time do I have? And

13:00

I think I told him, you got three weeks.

13:03

He was like three weeks.

13:07

Okay, what wait?

13:10

So we don't know.

13:15

I didn't know what he had recorded because he

13:18

wasn't really talking about it at all. He wasn't talking

13:20

about making a record. Big Boy was gone solo.

13:23

We've already done a photo shoot, we've picked

13:25

a single, we've put the date on

13:27

the calendar.

13:28

We're moving forward.

13:30

And then I get that call from Andre and

13:32

he says, you know, how

13:34

much time do I have? And that was the

13:36

first time I had an indication that

13:38

he wanted to make an album. We not

13:40

talked about it at all. And

13:43

I told him three weeks and I just remember

13:46

him saying okay,

13:49

and he hung up.

13:50

He was probably done already.

13:54

All I remember is that on

13:57

the night that we had to like turn

13:59

the album in for parts so we can manufacture.

14:03

Andre has studios going everywhere,

14:05

He had mastering going on, He had a couple

14:07

of mixed rooms going on, he had,

14:10

He had an ensemble of studios

14:12

going to make the deadline. He was

14:14

working his ass off. I went to the studio

14:16

to visit and heard

14:19

some of the material, but he

14:22

finished it and sat down

14:24

and played it for me, and

14:26

I was I could not believe what I

14:28

was hearing man, and and

14:31

he played me hey, y'all, and

14:34

I was like, oh my god.

14:36

And I didn't try to say well, I didn't

14:39

try to go into the like okay, yeah, this is

14:41

a smash that. That wasn't

14:43

how I reacted. I was more blown

14:45

away that you actually did this in three

14:47

weeks. And I felt like you did,

14:49

Like you must have had this. There's

14:52

no way to do this in three weeks.

14:53

Yeah. Has a

14:55

theory though.

14:56

When Pete Rock was telling the story of how he made

14:58

public, Getnay shut him down in ten minutes, and

15:02

one of y'all said, like because

15:05

of the pressure, Like he didn't have time to overthink

15:07

it.

15:07

You're not thinking it, You're

15:10

just doing Yeah. That's also Quincy.

15:12

He talks about the alpha state, like he

15:14

talks about that just recording.

15:16

Rolysis through analysis.

15:17

Yea, yeah, just going you're not

15:19

thinking about it, you're just creating.

15:21

Right, you will presented with the scenario

15:23

twice, and I always

15:25

wanted to know how

15:28

far did TLC get

15:31

And going with that initial thing where

15:33

I believe Lisa suggested all

15:36

three of us should make solo records

15:38

and.

15:40

Oh, not very far.

15:42

Okay, honestly, not very

15:44

far at all, because Tea

15:48

Boys have made a couple of solo songs

15:50

that for a soundtrack I could have. Remember,

15:52

the soundtrack is to Touch Myself

15:54

record, I Touched.

15:56

Myself, That's the song. I

15:58

remember that.

15:59

I was thinking about the that rug wrecks

16:01

thing, but no, that was that.

16:03

Would have been after.

16:04

But so she did it, and

16:07

it was pretty clear to me that it

16:09

was the ensemble that was the

16:11

magic, right.

16:12

And I love t bos like I

16:14

mean, I loved all of them.

16:15

But I had a particular love for her style,

16:18

that raspy voice, her kind of

16:21

her. She kind of approached it like a

16:23

guy. She was the only girl I've seen approach

16:25

it like a guy. But but and

16:27

I just I thought she was so dope. But

16:30

it was the ensemble that was the real

16:32

winner there. And then Lisa made a solo

16:34

album before she passed

16:37

away, made she rest in

16:39

peace.

16:39

I miss her so much.

16:41

She made a solo album, and I

16:45

I wasn't blown away by it. I didn't

16:47

think it was incredible at all, you

16:49

know, and it was, and it was.

16:52

It was the kind of music I should

16:56

I should have loved it if it were good.

16:59

It wasn't like side of my thing, the way

17:01

I sort of described Goodie Mob as

17:03

outside of my thing. So I got

17:05

to defer to them. This wasn't outside

17:07

of my sweet spot. But I just didn't

17:09

think it was great. And Chili

17:12

never actually tried to make a solo record that

17:14

I can remember until many

17:16

many years later, So

17:18

that one didn't get that one didn't go very far.

17:21

How did you balance, you know, a

17:23

record like crazy Sexy Cool, where

17:25

it's on your label but you're also

17:27

writing and producing. I didn't write, you

17:29

know, you didn't do baby

17:32

Face together.

17:33

That was when that was the last time that

17:36

I was a writer producer was

17:40

seven whole days, Tony Braxton.

17:42

It was the last time.

17:44

And after and I did and then I did

17:46

a song that never made never

17:48

started, Light of a Day with Elton

17:50

John that Elton called and asked me to produce,

17:53

right, and it was for a a

17:57

Curtis Mayfield tribute record. Wasn't commercial

17:59

at all.

18:01

Was spending time in Atlanta. For a minute, I was like, were

18:03

you the reason time a lot?

18:05

Yeah?

18:06

But I stopped.

18:07

I stopped, and Kenny and

18:10

I stopped working together, and I

18:12

started spending too much time on the phone. I

18:14

was transitioning into being an executive.

18:17

I was.

18:18

I was learning how to how independent

18:20

promotion worked. I was learning how marketing

18:22

worked. And I was so intrigued

18:25

with the stuff I didn't know. And people were

18:27

coming in and telling me about like Janet

18:29

Jackson's marketing plan. I was like, what's a marketing

18:31

plan? So I became curious about

18:33

everything, and and

18:36

I was hearing words like they shipped a hundred

18:38

thousand?

18:39

What's that mean?

18:39

Shiped a hundred thousand?

18:40

I just became curious about the business.

18:43

I think I sort of fell out of love

18:46

with producing and writing.

18:48

And I was never a great writer. Kenny was a

18:50

great writer. I was a good producer, but Kenny

18:52

was a great writer. And I was a

18:55

collaborator, and I filled in some blanks and

18:57

had some concepts here and there, but he

18:59

was a great writer. So

19:01

it was easy to sort of step back

19:03

because I didn't consider myself great at

19:05

it.

19:05

In the first place, I felt I felt

19:08

very lucky.

19:14

So if the label were

19:17

was that primarily you running the label

19:19

and Face just doing the

19:22

music or was he involved on the label side

19:24

as well?

19:24

Now I think if you ask him he would say

19:27

that He's always said that the label.

19:29

Was kind of my thing.

19:31

Because I liked the idea of signing talent and

19:33

doing all that stuff, you know, and picking

19:36

songs and you know.

19:37

So for so for a record like a crazy

19:40

sexy cool where you know, Babyface is

19:42

doing like a digging on you or whatever.

19:44

Right, yes, is.

19:45

There no conflict of ventures.

19:47

I actually had all of the producers competing

19:50

and they didn't really know it. Like

19:54

I had Dallas working

19:56

on it first he was the architect.

19:59

Then I go play it for Jermaine Dupre and

20:01

be like, I know you can beat this, and

20:04

then I and then

20:07

you know, then Kenny is competitive.

20:09

You don't have to you don't have to put a battery in Kenny's

20:11

back. He's so competitive. So he sent his

20:13

songs in and then I went to Rico

20:16

way last and said here's

20:18

what everybody else gave me, what you got

20:20

and he came over with waterfalls.

20:22

Wow.

20:25

So according to according

20:28

to.

20:30

Executives at Arista outside

20:33

of Outcast, they considered

20:36

crazy sexy cool my

20:38

first time as an A and

20:40

R executive. That I wasn't

20:43

the writer, I wasn't the producer. Uh,

20:45

and that was that's and if

20:48

it was my first I didn't see it that way. But if

20:50

it was, I did okay.

20:52

With with no input from Clive

20:54

at all, Like, hey.

20:57

Clive, not Once it was done,

21:00

Clive had opinions about the singles

21:02

and uh, and we had you

21:04

know, Creep was the first single. I love

21:06

Creep by the way, man off.

21:09

So we shot a video for Creep. Wasn't

21:11

very good.

21:13

I'm damn. So we shot a second video

21:15

for Creep. Oh again, wasn't

21:18

very good. I'm like, fuck, no trouble. Yeah.

21:20

We shot two videos and they weren't good that

21:22

the world never saw them, and

21:24

so I was embarrassed.

21:27

So I switched singles. I

21:29

said Creeps no longer.

21:30

The single we're gonna go with this song called kick Your Game that

21:32

your MANE d pre did. Clive was likeld

21:35

hold it, hold on, why are changing?

21:38

What is this?

21:39

What's behind this? You have to explain,

21:41

right.

21:42

And Dallas Austin called like, yo, I know you're

21:44

not like not putting my single out like he

21:46

knew he had a great record, and so I

21:49

had to come clean and say, well, truth be told, like

21:51

I made two horrible videos.

21:52

And I'm just too embarrassed to tell everybody. So

21:55

Clive says, get it right. He

21:57

said, get it right.

21:58

So I'm with Diddy

22:00

one day at the at

22:03

the Helmsley Palace hotel in New York.

22:04

I'm sitting with Diddy.

22:06

I play him the TC video that's

22:08

not good, and he

22:10

looks at me.

22:11

It's like, oh my god, like.

22:13

This is horrible, and he

22:15

does not make me feel any better about it. Right

22:18

while I'm showing him the video on one

22:20

television because I used to have with this road

22:23

case that I carried around with speakers and monitor

22:26

and every cord like office in a case.

22:28

I was extra.

22:30

While I'm playing it for him on the television,

22:33

there's a video with InVogue

22:37

and Salt and pepper Coat.

22:38

What a man?

22:38

What a man?

22:40

And I look at that video. It looks way

22:42

better than our video. I'm like, who directed that

22:45

is you? Roston? Yeah?

22:47

So I called Matthew Rosston and

22:49

I asked him to do creep

22:52

and we got it right, the third time.

22:54

But we threw two videos away to get to the

22:56

good one.

22:56

I will do anything to find those original videos.

22:59

In a situation like that, though, when when

23:01

TLC got to repay the money back, do they

23:03

gotta pay for all three of those versions or do they

23:05

just pay for the one that made it.

23:08

Let's look at it like this. You sell

23:11

ten million albums.

23:12

Okay,

23:14

the.

23:18

Two I don't know.

23:20

I love it.

23:21

That's all I wanted to hear.

23:22

That's all I got because

23:24

I know, you know what.

23:27

Went on to make the great record. Trying to make the great

23:29

video. I'm spending people's money and

23:32

not.

23:32

Real I'm even with anger

23:34

because to sit in the geff and offices

23:37

and be told your videos are one

23:39

and done, like there is no going back.

23:42

I can't believe that. I'm hearing stories.

23:44

Of we didn't think video. We'll

23:47

take it back, and.

23:48

Then we'll take it back again, and then we take

23:50

it back. I hear Mariah made four videos

23:52

for Vision of Love, and I'm like.

23:54

That's a very old school thing, though, man, that's

23:57

our.

23:58

Label convinced us that, like because

24:00

we hated our videos and.

24:04

You couldn't do anything about it.

24:06

Yeah, like you were stuck either

24:09

video or no video, Like, oh

24:11

my god.

24:12

Videos, weren't you memorable?

24:14

That's why I hate making videos

24:18

that being mean to you

24:21

are not too memorable.

24:22

That's mean.

24:25

The reason that I am here is because I'm the roots

24:27

largest fan, so I can say a couple of truthful things.

24:29

I'm here.

24:31

Yeah, I'm neither not bothered

24:33

either way.

24:35

So okay.

24:36

I was always curious the call the

24:39

night that left eye burnt the house

24:41

down, like, were you

24:43

worried?

24:43

Not worried about stopping the bag?

24:46

But it was morning.

24:48

First of all, it was early morning.

24:51

Oh wow, it was early we

24:53

were We lived in the same night time crime,

24:55

not a day.

24:56

No, we lived in the same subdivision.

24:58

We both lived in Country of the South. My

25:02

housekeeper at the time

25:04

was taking my son, Aaron. She was taking him

25:06

to school. He was in the kindergarten all right,

25:09

or maybe preschool. But and

25:12

she called. I

25:14

want to say, I don't

25:17

know if Pebbles was not home

25:19

or I don't know. For whatever reason, I answered the phone.

25:21

She said, I just drove by Lisa house is

25:23

on fire. So I look

25:26

outside, I see helicopters

25:29

from me. I'm like, oh shit,

25:31

So I just start trying to find Lisa.

25:35

I just start trying to find her and I found

25:37

her right I called every number

25:39

I had, everybody I knew, and I

25:41

found her and she said she was okay. She said

25:43

she didn't get hurt. She was okay,

25:46

and she told me it wasn't on purpose, it was an

25:48

accident. And I

25:51

immediately went to protect

25:53

her. And I have friends

25:56

in the police force there, Like the chief

25:58

of police was a friend, and

26:00

I just asked him, like, can you just help me

26:02

to protect her, like I don't want her to be arrested,

26:05

I don't want anything to happen.

26:07

So he helped me.

26:08

We gave her an entire

26:10

floor at the Swiss hotel and bucket and

26:14

with police no one could get on the floor

26:16

and she stayed there until she

26:18

had to go to court for it and

26:22

then you know, but yeah, I didn't

26:24

think about anything except her safety.

26:27

Okay, ninety four ninety

26:29

five, especially

26:31

ninety six ninety seven, it's

26:34

probably one of the most tumultuous

26:36

times in black

26:39

sec Yes,

26:42

and you know, all right, The thing

26:44

is is that we lived in Europe

26:47

during this time period, so we really were sort

26:49

of out of the literal crossfire.

26:52

You lived in Europe at that time.

26:54

We we The

26:56

shortest story is that basically we

26:58

realized Richard Nichols was intuitive

27:02

enough to

27:04

the day that God Rest

27:06

his soul, Kurt Kobain committed suicide.

27:09

Rich said, the label's

27:11

gonna drop us because by this point Aerosmith

27:14

that went to Sony Guns

27:16

n' Roses wasn't coming up with another album,

27:18

and now Nirvana's gone, and literally,

27:21

like those three Acts and all the billions that they

27:23

made enable geffen'da have a black

27:25

department, and we were there first

27:27

acts and rich sort

27:30

of have the spidery sense that

27:32

everybody's going to get the Acts, so we

27:35

better just grab our publishing money, run

27:38

to Europe, get a flat and then

27:40

just become like the black

27:42

version of the commitments, like get

27:45

a tour bus and just tour all over Europe.

27:47

So we just lived there for like three

27:50

years straight working, so we were really

27:52

we hadn't met none of our

27:54

peers, none of that stuff, like we come back to

27:56

record new albums, see our

27:58

families. But for the most part of like six months

28:01

touring in Europe and spot dates

28:03

like all over the United States touring. But

28:06

for the most part we had missed

28:10

a lot of the stories

28:12

that we heard between

28:15

like what was the trouble

28:17

brewing between like executives

28:19

and you just knew, you knew how toxic that

28:22

environment was, how

28:24

frightening was it being a

28:27

black executive?

28:28

And more important, how did you avoid.

28:31

Getting sucked into

28:34

just the toxic mix of

28:36

it all where beef

28:38

is now like a regular thing between

28:41

executives.

28:42

You know, Yeah, that's a

28:44

great question. And I

28:47

have to tell you, like, I was really

28:49

concerned. I was really concerned

28:51

about it. And because

28:53

I was, I was very close

28:56

to Puffy, right, and

28:58

I helped start Bad Way, you know,

29:00

I helped helped get him the deal for Bad

29:03

Boy, and very proud of that, by the way,

29:06

because I actually wanted him to be an A

29:08

and R guy at LA face And after one meeting, I realized

29:11

that this is this is nobody's employee.

29:13

This guy's this guy special,

29:15

you know. Uh.

29:17

And yeah, I was concerned about it, man,

29:19

because I felt I felt like Atlanta

29:23

wasn't the East or the West, so we

29:26

were kind of we

29:28

weren't viewed as the competition for either

29:31

the East or the West, right, whatever we

29:33

were doing in Atlanta, even

29:35

though like we were, we were we were having

29:37

hits.

29:37

But culturally, the

29:40

impact of the West Coast was.

29:43

Really huge, right with Snoop and Dray

29:45

and Park and all that, and

29:47

then the Bad Boy on the East Coast. Those

29:50

things were like very front facing, and

29:52

what we did at La Face wasn't

29:54

as front facing like our artists were.

29:56

But Kenny and I weren't like that.

29:58

We weren't. There was no change, no, you

30:00

know, we weren't like that.

30:01

You know so, But I can only imagine that

30:04

the more success you got, the more it

30:06

puts you out front to become

30:09

sucked into that because I don't think

30:11

I don't think that there would be a bad Boy death row

30:14

thing if Puffy were

30:16

releasing records

30:18

produced by me. I

30:20

mean not to be self deprecating, but I'm just saying

30:22

that obviously there's

30:25

a competition thing on what label's gonna

30:27

wind up on top, and you're

30:30

actually selling more units than

30:32

both those labels, at least for.

30:34

Their artists alive, right, right,

30:36

right, I mean you could have been an easy

30:40

target.

30:40

I thought I was avoiding it. Man, It's best

30:43

I could, and I knew everybody.

30:44

I mean, relationships with Sugar

30:46

and you have relationship with Ruffy.

30:48

And yes, yes, And I

30:51

didn't know. I did not know Biggie

30:53

and I did not know Tupac, right,

30:56

I never. I can't say I knew either of them.

30:58

I probably had one

31:00

handshake with each person and in

31:03

a sort of passing, but I

31:05

didn't know them. And

31:08

yeah, so I have. I tried hard,

31:10

and I won't kid you. I am nobody's

31:12

tough guy. I tried desperately

31:15

to avoid ever being in the room.

31:17

I wouldn't even go to.

31:19

Would you go to Jack the Rappers and all those things

31:21

before?

31:22

I would? But there was important?

31:25

Was that important to go to or was that just a vanity

31:27

thing?

31:28

You know what?

31:28

It was important because all the DJs

31:30

were there, like all the dj and

31:32

at that time, DJs could make a decision about

31:34

which records they played right before

31:37

before the conglomerates took over. You

31:39

know, DJ's had some say they had

31:41

to say and what they played.

31:42

And so we did.

31:44

And all of the labels

31:47

competitors were there. You got a chance to see

31:49

what the other label had, what they had

31:51

coming, and if you needed to go back and do

31:54

better or find another song or

31:56

find another act. So and it

31:59

was it was good camaraderie.

32:01

It was really good until it wasn't.

32:04

When it got bad, it got bad, and that's

32:07

when I stopped going, you know. But I

32:09

just tried to avoid it, man, and just stayed

32:12

to myself as much as I could, and

32:14

trying to sort of diminish

32:18

my presence. As

32:20

crazy as that sound, right, I didn't want

32:22

to be you know. We

32:25

didn't even have photo we didn't take pictures of

32:27

nothing. We just stayed in the background as

32:29

much as we could.

32:30

Was there an act that you kind

32:32

of purposely passed on signing just

32:36

because like, uh, this might

32:38

cause smoke for the label.

32:39

Or probably like I

32:41

don't remember a name.

32:43

But I didn't actively

32:46

look for artists in New York and LA.

32:49

I didn't.

32:50

I really didn't. I didn't. I ain't

32:52

even gonna lie, right. I did not actively

32:54

look. And so I was getting chatt

32:56

at newgou Tennessee, Atlanta,

32:58

Georgia.

32:59

You know you know what I mean, Des

33:02

Moines, Iowa.

33:03

I was.

33:05

Speaking of chattan New good Tennessee. Can we finally

33:08

settle this once and for all?

33:10

Can you please tell us.

33:16

No I saw I saw, I

33:18

saw what I saw What Tevin said

33:21

I never had to say in that because Kenny wrote

33:23

that song and he produced it on Tevin Campbell

33:26

and that was it. Like there was never like a

33:28

conversation like should we give it the Usher

33:30

or should I.

33:32

There was never a conversation.

33:33

Ken and I were not

33:36

working as writer producer partners

33:38

at that moment. That that he did completely

33:40

on his own and gave it to

33:42

Tevin, Tevin saying the hell

33:44

out of it, uh, and it worked.

33:47

So there there

33:49

was never any back and forth.

33:50

So you never had a sick,

33:53

griffy moment where like The

33:56

Face gave a

33:58

song to someone

34:01

that you know you could have used that song

34:03

for your artist, and it's like, yo, come.

34:05

On dog, like I could have used

34:07

that. I asked you last week if you had something for TLC,

34:09

and you said.

34:10

No, no, No.

34:13

It wasn't really like that. And

34:16

I was also very.

34:17

Clear about Kenny's ambitions as

34:19

a writer, right Kenny wanted the greatest

34:21

artists possible to sing his songs.

34:24

And it wasn't about for him.

34:26

It was never about whether it was on the

34:28

Face or whether it was on Arista or Epic

34:31

or He never thought about it that way.

34:33

He thought about it as

34:36

like the song girlfriend that Pebbles got the reason

34:38

she got it is because he thought her voice

34:40

was the right voice for the song. It was originally

34:43

for Vanessa Williams right,

34:46

and he thought, he

34:48

said, it's not right for Vanessa because

34:50

he listened to as a as a musician,

34:53

as an artist, as a writer, producer, he listened

34:55

to the voices and he made his decisions

34:57

based on the voices.

34:59

And how do you argue with that?

35:00

There's definitely a big difference between

35:03

the pink that signed

35:05

to Lea Face first

35:08

few records and the artists that she

35:10

morphed into. So how

35:12

what what's the what's the conversation

35:15

and the metamorphoses where.

35:18

You know, there's a beginning.

35:20

And then there's definitely a separation from what

35:24

she was and you were You're part of

35:26

that process, So like, yes, at what point

35:28

do you realize maybe

35:30

I should loosen the strings somewhat and see

35:33

where they go with it?

35:34

Right?

35:35

So first album, she did

35:38

that album as a member of the group Choice,

35:41

and then they disbanded and

35:44

we continued the process, and

35:46

some of the songs that were made

35:48

for Choice she kept them. But

35:50

we struggled in the beginning. We really struggled

35:53

because she was still growing. She was very

35:55

young and she was still finding herself, finding

35:57

her style, and so

36:00

we the first album we did the

36:02

best we could do right. It was called

36:04

Can't Take Me Home. Loved her concepts,

36:06

loved her how she thought about it,

36:09

and I loved her voice and her energy.

36:11

She was incredible musically.

36:13

It was a little bit undefined and all over

36:15

the place when it got so but

36:17

we had We had a hit with

36:20

with there You Go and

36:23

Uh, and she had a second hit called most Girls,

36:25

not as big a hit, but it did really well. So

36:28

when it came to her second album, she

36:31

hooked up with Dallas Austin, her

36:34

and KP basically oversaw

36:36

it, and then

36:38

she hooked up with Linda Perry. And

36:42

when she first brought it to me, I

36:45

was like, wait a minute, you're abandoning

36:48

like the urban thing that you started

36:50

on your first album. Be

36:52

sure about that. And

36:54

she was like, yeah, I'm

36:56

not trying to repeat that. I'm onto something

36:59

really special. And I was like, okay,

37:02

I don't know. I

37:05

was like, I'll tell you what, if you feel passionately

37:07

about it, I'm gonna step back do your thing right.

37:11

And my exact words to her was because

37:13

I was I got.

37:15

This from Dick Griffy. I said, I'm gonna give you an opportunity

37:17

to fail.

37:20

Yourself.

37:20

Okay, yeah, I said that, and I

37:22

ain't really know what it meant, but I said it

37:24

because Dick Griffy said it anyway, And

37:28

so she did it. She came back

37:30

and she played me get

37:33

the Party started, eighteen

37:35

Wheeler, and she played me all

37:37

those songs, and I was like, oh my.

37:38

God, this girl's made up.

37:39

She made a real album and

37:43

we went to work her

37:45

throw up with Dave Myers. They made a great video

37:48

and she was off to the races after

37:51

that. When it came

37:53

to her third album, I

37:56

wasn't involved at all. I

37:59

was involved at all. She got a new manager,

38:01

Roger Davis, very famous manager who

38:03

also mat just TEENA Turner. Yeah, Roger

38:05

Davis, Roger Davies. So her and Roger

38:08

kind of they did it all and just turned

38:10

it in like. I wasn't involved at all. And

38:12

when it was done, I didn't think it was particularly

38:15

good, honestly, and I

38:18

left the company right as it was

38:21

time to release it. So and

38:24

it didn't do that great.

38:25

I don't understand when La

38:28

Face just amalgamates into Arista,

38:32

but do I recall when you

38:34

actually went back to school.

38:37

I did because Swizz did the same thing,

38:39

Like what is this?

38:41

So what happened is I

38:44

got contacted by the

38:46

Birtlesman, the company that owned the

38:48

aristag BMG.

38:52

They had a BMG, visited me, came

38:54

to Atlanta, visited me. This was early

38:57

too, man, This was like probably ninety four,

39:01

and that early on they said we would

39:03

like to We want you to prep yourself

39:05

because at some point we

39:08

want you to take over aris to records.

39:11

And I was like, yeah, right, that's

39:14

what I thought to my I don't

39:16

believe it. Ninety four Okay,

39:19

So a couple of years

39:21

ago by and they

39:23

call again and instead

39:26

this time they don't say aris that. They said,

39:29

we would like for you to go back to school. We would

39:31

like you to go to school. We can

39:33

get you enrolled in a program

39:36

at Harvard. You'll have to go and

39:38

stay on campus. You got to stay for ten weeks.

39:40

You cannot run the company. You can't talk to

39:42

your artists, you can't talk to your executives.

39:44

You can talk to your.

39:45

Family, but we need you on

39:47

the campus and we need you to put in

39:49

fifty to sixty hours a week doing

39:52

case studies and living on the

39:55

campus and really studying international

39:58

business.

40:00

Okay, it's like a jail sentence.

40:03

I liked the idea of it because I didn't

40:05

go to college, and I regretted not going

40:07

to college because I opted to be a musician.

40:09

I opted to go on the road that was college to me.

40:12

So I liked this idea. So I

40:14

went and I

40:16

stayed there for my ten weeks and it

40:20

was really hard, because it

40:22

was really really hard. So I got kids

40:24

on the campus to tutor me and

40:27

helped me get through it. And I made friends with other

40:30

people in that were in my in

40:32

my dorm, so it

40:34

was like the students were teaching each other.

40:36

So you really had to go to Harvard and

40:38

stay at Harvard. And do you had

40:40

to do that?

40:41

Yeah?

40:41

Yeah, I lived on campus and I'm a and

40:44

at this point, like i'm a

40:47

I live in Atlanta, I'm I'm I'm

40:49

a musician's half musician,

40:51

half executive. You know, I'm

40:53

a hybrid. I'm a very weird hybrid.

40:55

I don't know how to dress, I don't know how to walk, I don't

40:57

know how to talk.

40:58

I don't know which handshake do you. I'm

41:00

like completely confused.

41:01

I'm gonna fish out of water in the greatest

41:03

institution in the world apparently,

41:06

right.

41:06

Uh So it was very intimidating. Everybody

41:08

seemed so smart.

41:11

I mean the accents you

41:13

know when you hear when you hear when you hear guys

41:16

with Indian accent talking about ebitda,

41:18

it sounds smarter. You know, guys

41:20

from the UK, they always sound

41:23

smarter than we do, right, right, So

41:25

it's just all very intimidating.

41:27

And then I found my group.

41:28

Right around halfway point, I started

41:31

to find my groove and and and

41:33

figured it out. And at

41:35

the end of it, I graduated, And

41:37

I didn't know if I would What were.

41:39

Some of the things you learned from that program? Like how

41:42

did that?

41:42

We really studied businesses.

41:44

We studied things like things that you

41:46

would love, like we studied decisions

41:49

that Phil.

41:50

Nightmaye to make Nike a success.

41:52

We discovered you know, things like that,

41:54

like and we would take it in steps, like

41:57

they would present us a case.

41:59

They would show us the dilemma or

42:01

where.

42:01

The company could go one way or another,

42:04

and then they would test us basically

42:07

basically like what decision would you make

42:09

here? And then we would

42:11

go to the next sort of chapter

42:13

of the story. And

42:15

it was just basically case studies, studying

42:18

each person's case not only in

42:20

entertainment but or or in apparel,

42:22

but everything from public utilities

42:26

to you know, hospital to grocery

42:28

stores to automotive,

42:31

Toyota to Disney.

42:33

We'd study we studied businesses.

42:35

There's of course a famous book out

42:37

now called the Harvard Report

42:40

where they first did a case study

42:43

of Clive Davis, Yes,

42:45

embracing black music. Were they still using

42:48

that book as.

42:49

A No, we

42:51

never got there.

42:52

But they have so many like they collect

42:55

case They collect case studies from all

42:57

over the world, and each professor

42:59

would let the cases that he wants

43:01

to use in UH,

43:03

in his classrooms. But there's

43:06

no there's no set stories. I knew

43:08

about the Clive. They actually

43:10

did one with me about

43:13

UH. It was like the study of black music,

43:15

right, and.

43:19

They did. I know a lot of people that they've actually

43:21

done the reports.

43:22

They don't publish them all, they don't actually

43:25

use them all, but they just basically

43:27

collect information and

43:29

and and they teach it and and it's good.

43:32

The way we went about it,

43:34

it was intimidating at first, UH,

43:36

until I got my groove and realized that there were things

43:38

I knew that some of the people in that they didn't know.

43:41

Once I got that confidence, I was like, okay.

43:44

Because they studying business that you've been running on.

43:46

Yes, okay,

43:52

I have one confession's question.

43:54

I kind of consider Confessions the

43:58

end of the parentheses of

44:01

whatever.

44:03

I mean.

44:03

I really can't tell, Like what the first mega

44:05

album maybe Carol King's Tapestry.

44:08

It was like one of the first mega selling records,

44:12

but you know us there's Confessions comes

44:14

at a time when streaming

44:16

culture is about

44:19

to confuse the whole

44:21

entire industry, where buying a

44:23

tangible record is a

44:26

vote. So this is kind

44:28

of a part one and part two

44:30

thing. When when Confessions

44:32

was said and done, did

44:34

you realize then that there will

44:36

never be another

44:39

mega selling album of this nature

44:42

again in the music business.

44:44

Wow? No, I

44:47

ain't thinking that's incredible that you should say

44:49

that.

44:49

But no, Confessions

44:51

is the like after that.

44:53

Then that's the last. That's the last, like

44:55

diamond album.

44:56

Yes, literally, because

44:58

after that streaming comes in ruins it. But

45:02

I was asking that only because

45:05

of his Atlanta roots. I always wanted

45:07

to ask a CEO at least what their

45:09

feelings of what

45:11

streaming was threatening to be, and

45:14

of course you know there there's the napster

45:16

situation that sort of confused people and

45:19

have them in their feelings and then accepting

45:23

iTunes and whatnot, even down to DJ

45:26

Drama's arrest, Like, could you

45:29

talk about what the what the at

45:32

least the scary environment for what music

45:34

was about to become?

45:36

Now somehow you managed.

45:38

To There was a piece in the between

45:40

that which was downloads,

45:43

and downloads, while they weren't physical,

45:45

were still a la carte.

45:47

There was still like sales.

45:49

So the next the

45:51

next chapter of successes were

45:54

measured through downloads, right, some

45:58

physical not that much, you know, but

46:01

CDs were dwindling badly, Vinyl

46:03

was completely out of out of the count, uh,

46:06

and downloads with a thing, so we still

46:08

had.

46:09

But as president, did you feel the pressure

46:11

that I got to figure out something quick? Like

46:15

all my record all my label, like my artists

46:17

went from ten million to now to sell

46:20

three million is an.

46:22

Achievement, although it's not your fault

46:24

per se, just right, right?

46:26

Yeah, how are you dealing with that as

46:28

a CEO like and as an executive?

46:31

Yeah, the idea was just to not bottom

46:33

out the idea was, yes, the sales

46:35

are dwindling, and it's

46:38

across the board. It's not one company that's dwind

46:40

it's not one artist that's that sales

46:43

are dwindling. The entire industry

46:45

is going down the tube. Napster's introduced

46:48

the download, so we're fighting

46:51

piracy and at a rate that we've never

46:53

had to fight piracy, at least that we know of.

46:55

So with that being

46:57

the reality, it was

47:00

just get the best

47:02

artists and the best records you can and

47:04

do the best you can. And I

47:07

never really measured it against Like. I didn't

47:09

even know that fact.

47:10

I didn't know that Confessions Like was maybe

47:12

the last diamond. I didn't even know

47:14

that.

47:14

Confessions and speaker Box were the last of the

47:16

movie.

47:17

I didn't even realize that, So I didn't I didn't,

47:20

in my mind, compete with it.

47:22

I didn't think of it that way.

47:23

I thought of it more as

47:26

meaningful bodies of work, which

47:29

I felt Kanye made as an example right,

47:32

And I was really proud

47:34

of everything for the time I was around

47:36

him. I was proud of those records

47:38

and I felt that they were I felt

47:40

they measured up to whatever we did at

47:43

with Outcasts, whatever we did with Usher,

47:46

And I also had like Mariah Carey's

47:48

Emancipation of Me Me Right, and.

47:51

That felt like the for me, that

47:53

felt.

47:53

Like the follow up to Confessions

47:57

Right, some of the same kind of sounding records.

47:59

That's how I looked at it.

48:00

But I didn't look at the sales, and I didn't look at the challenge

48:03

that we had as an industry as

48:05

a threat.

48:06

I looked at it more as, yes, we need to figure

48:08

this out.

48:09

And once you come to death Jam,

48:12

like you kind of have to start all

48:14

over again, Like what is it to meet

48:16

your especially coming from where

48:19

they came from as far as like the the

48:21

era of Julie and

48:23

and le or yeah, like

48:26

to come in there and to be the new guy, like

48:29

was it.

48:31

Eyes?

48:31

And oh my god, man, it was crazy? It

48:34

was It was crazy. It was nice to you

48:36

crazy. Wasn't there when I got there? Okay,

48:39

she came once once Jay was president,

48:42

right, but man, it was it

48:45

was scary because it was a real.

48:47

First of all, I didn't realize. Here's

48:50

the thing about death Jam, Like, if

48:52

you're part of that culture, you realize

48:54

how important that culture is. If you're

48:56

not a part of it, you don't really know, so

48:58

it's crazy as this sound. I

49:00

didn't know that it was what it was

49:03

like. It wasn't that to us in Atlanta. I

49:05

mean, it was a successful company. It was big.

49:07

We respected. We knew Russell, we knew

49:10

Rick Rubin, we knew le Ric Cohen, we knew

49:12

Chris Leidy, we knew cool j.

49:14

We knew it.

49:15

But we didn't think of it

49:18

as the institution that it

49:20

was.

49:21

We didn't see it that way.

49:23

So when I walked in, I was shocked

49:25

by I was shocked by it all.

49:27

I was shocked by.

49:29

The voice of the community and their

49:31

opinions about anything that happened.

49:33

I didn't realize that theft jam belonged

49:35

to the streets. It belonged to the people, like

49:38

you know it funk Master Flex

49:40

had to say, and every I mean it's making up

49:42

named anybody right, everybody had a say

49:45

in it. So when I came in as

49:47

a new chairman of the company, coming

49:50

from my background, I was

49:52

immediately made to feel

49:54

uncomfortable. Right executives

49:57

were taking out articles in the newspaper

49:59

and magazine talking about

50:01

how I wasn't fit for it and how

50:04

you know, how would I know how to

50:06

go talk to DMX like you

50:08

know it was and I

50:10

felt it. I really did. I felt it.

50:13

And I didn't feel welcome at

50:15

all. And I

50:17

loved Julie. I think she's one of the

50:19

most remarkable executives in the world. I

50:22

love Kevin. I think he's one of the most remarkable

50:24

executives in the world. Nither of them

50:26

made me feel welcome. And

50:28

and oh wait.

50:29

So they Kevin and Julie were still there when

50:31

you came. Oh I kind of thought

50:34

they all left together.

50:35

Yeah, they they were there when I got there,

50:38

only le Or had left. And

50:40

I didn't feel very welcome, right, And I

50:44

didn't feel welcome.

50:45

By the artist either.

50:47

The artists at that time.

50:48

You know, I loved them,

50:51

right method Man, Redman,

50:54

ghost Face, Ello, cool J the

50:57

only one, and jay Z was like on

50:59

semi Retireronment Rockefeller.

51:02

And the artist that embraced me was

51:04

Kanye West. Wow,

51:07

that was the one that embraced me.

51:09

Right.

51:09

That helps.

51:10

That helped a lot.

51:11

And this is early Kanye before he released

51:14

his first album right, although

51:16

it was already done and slated to be released

51:18

when I came to the company. But I

51:21

met him and he said to me, because

51:24

you understand outcasts, you'll probably

51:26

understand me. And that's how that

51:29

was the first conversation we ever had.

51:30

And I locked in with him.

51:33

And then Mariah called, and because

51:35

her and I wanted to work together for years, I

51:37

tried to sign her at Ariston when she first left

51:39

Sony and so I

51:41

had Mariah embracing

51:44

me, but no one

51:46

else. So Mariah says,

51:49

I'm on the phone with Mariah. This is really good,

51:51

and she says, you know how you can put

51:54

the fire out? I was like, how

51:56

she said, make Jay.

51:57

Z the president? Oh

52:00

man, No, that's Mariah. You don't

52:03

like that idea?

52:04

No, Well, are you asking the wrong person?

52:06

I'm kind of overprotective.

52:08

I mean I was. I was way overprotective

52:10

of the ruse.

52:10

I had a whole conversation with Jay on the radio about

52:13

the way he was handling his presidency and the way

52:15

he was handling all the Philadelphia acts at the time.

52:17

So no, as a.

52:17

Radio person and for the Philadelphia person, I

52:20

was not feeling that. But the artist, he's.

52:22

Great, Oh yeah, okay,

52:24

anyway, But but you know what when

52:26

I when I so Mariah

52:28

put the idea in my head, I presented

52:31

it to Jay didn't get

52:33

an answer right away. Eventually

52:36

we were able to come to terms

52:38

and he became the president of Death

52:40

Jam and at that point

52:42

that made the peace and everybody

52:45

left me.

52:45

Alone and Method

52:48

but Method, man, I wasn't happy those

52:50

face.

52:50

Wasn't that's

52:53

that's something I did not know.

52:55

Wow.

52:56

Yeah, And a lot of the artists, like I

52:58

met a few artists that that have said

53:00

to me that they

53:03

because it's two way street. When

53:05

you become you're the head of a label and you come

53:07

in to an established company, you're

53:10

auditioning for them. It's

53:12

not the other way around. It's not the artists

53:14

need to.

53:15

Prove to you.

53:15

You need to prove to the artists, right.

53:18

And many of the artists were like, we're not even

53:20

gonna give you a chance because A we

53:22

think you might be r and b B we think you

53:24

pop either way, we don't think you're hip hop, so

53:27

I might be coming to your office, right. So

53:31

so that was a very difficult thing.

53:33

And I was like, yo, okay, I hear

53:35

y'all.

53:35

I still have the biggest selling hip

53:37

hop album of all time.

53:38

Do I get a do I get do I get a meeting?

53:43

Because you ain't beat to speaker box a lot

53:45

below yet, so can I at least get

53:47

a meeting.

53:49

I can't even believe that you would have to beg for a

53:51

meeting.

53:53

I was not embraced.

53:54

It's okay though, Like I'm not saying that, Like I

53:56

I was cool.

53:57

Uh, And I just embraced those that embraced

53:59

me. We and we ended up.

54:01

We created a different kind of label as

54:04

Chris Light he made he rest in peace.

54:06

I loved him. He said, this is

54:08

a face jam. This is not deaf jam.

54:14

One very unusual deaf jam signee

54:16

at the time that I considered,

54:19

can you talk about what it took to market

54:21

and break Justin Bieber?

54:24

Oh?

54:25

Yes, So I

54:27

love that. That was a that was that

54:29

was a gift from Usher.

54:31

Right. Usher came in,

54:33

he said, I have a gift for you. He came in.

54:35

I thought he was gonna bring me cigars or something.

54:38

I love the story. I love the story. Yes,

54:41

I love it. That was a gift.

54:43

Yes, And he walks in with fourteen

54:45

year old Justin Bieber. Justin

54:47

cames in, comes in, and he's beating on the table,

54:50

right, and he's playing the piano, he's playing the guitar,

54:52

and he's singing, he's jumping around, he's talking, he's

54:55

a mile a minute, and I'm just staring

54:57

at him like this

55:02

star, Like I mean, I got my star

55:04

hat on. I'm like, this is a this

55:06

dude, this is star. I'm telling you guys.

55:08

I thought I I ain't gonna

55:11

lie. I thought I met Elvis.

55:13

Wow.

55:15

I seriously, I was like this dude right here. Because

55:17

the girls all talked about how pretty his

55:19

face was. Not not pretty

55:22

like in a negative way, but in a way

55:24

that they loved him right. All

55:26

the girls loved him. And

55:28

then artists

55:30

that not all artists, but many artists

55:32

like kind of liked him. And

55:35

so we went about making the record,

55:37

and the first record with

55:40

strategy. You want to do strategically.

55:42

I have this theory that Blue

55:44

Eyed Soul is the

55:47

music that has the greatest opportunity for global

55:49

success. That's that's my

55:51

opinion. So

55:54

we put him on black radio first

55:56

thing out, put him on V one o three and

55:58

it was wow. That's where it

56:01

started. He had a song called one Time Before

56:03

Baby, we put we put it

56:05

on V one o three and and we

56:08

that's what we did, man.

56:09

We we went black first.

56:11

Mm hmmm.

56:12

And then we put it on read them and then we crossed

56:14

it over. But we wanted to we wanted

56:16

to give him, uh some black foundation.

56:19

And he had he had the check,

56:21

the endorsement because of Usher and

56:23

Me, so he had real and

56:25

and and Dreaming Tricky were

56:27

making his records, so he had he

56:30

was covered.

56:31

Well, he could have went the other way because wasn't

56:34

it a battle between Usher and was it

56:36

justin?

56:36

Because yes, they.

56:38

Both wanted him,

56:41

and and then and after that, uh,

56:44

then Kanye embraced him, you

56:46

know, and.

56:48

Just everyone felt like everybody

56:50

else, Yeah.

56:51

All right, I'm gonna slowly wind this down, okay,

56:53

and we I can't believe that at

56:56

this point.

56:56

Oh my god, it's like the

56:58

old school here.

57:00

We're not gonna fe.

57:01

This might this might be three episodes.

57:03

My sisters just smiled when you say we're gonna wind

57:05

this down.

57:06

I've seen her.

57:06

Walk past about three four times, like I'm not I'm

57:09

just saying, I ain't saying.

57:11

I mean, at this rate, where you've

57:13

worked at labels and whatnot,

57:15

do you believe in the theory that

57:18

I hear people say all the time, like it's

57:20

going to be the end of labels, no more labels,

57:23

if it is going to be the end of labels,

57:26

what will happen to music next? Because

57:28

I do feel like something is going to eventually

57:30

give. Like I feel like this

57:33

this decade that we're in the twenties, everything

57:35

is giving. So should

57:39

music follow suit? Are

57:41

you I don't, Are you prepare to aid in

57:43

the next step of it? Or is it sort of like, all

57:46

right, I've done my bit,

57:48

I'm gonna sit out.

57:50

I'm definitely not done. First

57:53

of all, I ain't said nothing. Man,

57:55

they got to they gotta you know, they

57:57

try to take my head off. I still got my head, so

58:00

sorry. So I

58:03

don't believe in that.

58:05

I think that labels have historically not been

58:07

well loved, well liked, and

58:10

for for for the right reasons

58:12

probably, but throughout time people

58:14

have not record labels

58:16

do not have a great public perception, no

58:18

matter what it is, no matter you

58:21

know, culturally maybe so like people

58:23

like Deaf Jam or people like bad Boy

58:25

or a Motown or whatever, right,

58:27

but culturally it may have a lot

58:29

of impact, But the public perception are

58:32

that record companies are generally.

58:35

Brooks, not upstanding people.

58:37

Uh So, people have always wanted

58:40

to see the demise of record labels.

58:42

I think that, And

58:44

so now we live in an era of independence,

58:47

right where, And that's

58:49

good in that, and there's bad in that, right The

58:52

bad in that is that there

58:54

is no barrier to entry, there's

58:56

no filter. So every

59:00

thing is out, Everything

59:02

is on Spotify, everything is on Apple,

59:05

everything is on SoundCloud, everything

59:07

everything like, there's no filter for

59:10

it, right, And so now

59:12

we're leaving it to the editorial

59:14

people or the music editors

59:17

to make the decisions about

59:19

which songs are good enough

59:21

to be on the world's biggest playlist.

59:24

But they're picking from sixty thousand a

59:26

day. I like it.

59:28

So I don't see that as

59:31

I don't see that as great right at

59:34

all, because I like the

59:37

idea that taste

59:39

makers, curators of music,

59:42

passionate music people make

59:45

decisions about what they

59:48

love based on their experiences,

59:50

and those things get a shot, not

59:52

that the other things shouldn't get a shot.

59:55

But I don't like the idea that it's a free

59:57

for all, And there's a fallacy

1:00:00

there that you can

1:00:02

be chance the rapper, and you can be independent

1:00:05

and make it all the way to the top. But

1:00:07

as I understand it, he's probably got fifty like employees

1:00:10

and a lot of money and all kinds of stuff. That's not

1:00:12

exactly the same thing as being just a

1:00:14

starving kid in Columbus, Ohio who wants to be independent,

1:00:16

right, That's not the.

1:00:17

Same as he has money.

1:00:19

So if you're a kid, if you're a fifteen

1:00:21

year old kid in Columbus, Ohio,

1:00:24

and you don't have a record label and you're

1:00:26

told to do it on.

1:00:27

Your own, man, you don't know what to do.

1:00:29

You do not know what to do, right, So

1:00:31

that means that you're

1:00:33

gonna put your music out. It might get

1:00:35

wasted, You're gonna waste a lot of time, You're gonna

1:00:37

get discouraged, and we

1:00:40

might actually not see the

1:00:42

next star because you've been discouraged before

1:00:44

you get an opportunity to come out of the gate. Whereas

1:00:46

if someone embraces you and put their arm around

1:00:48

you and says, you know, I believe in you, and

1:00:51

oh, by the way, I'm leaving out something very important.

1:00:54

You're you're a.

1:00:56

Highly trained, wildly successful,

1:01:00

massively talented musician, and

1:01:03

you respect people who put the time in that

1:01:05

you put in, whether you like their music

1:01:07

or not like their music. You respect the fact

1:01:09

that all of you guys are seasoned executives

1:01:12

and seasoned professionals, and

1:01:14

you respect people who do.

1:01:16

There's something to be said for the people who

1:01:18

are just doing it as a hobby, who aren't

1:01:20

serious, who are as serious as you are,

1:01:23

who are as talented as you are, who

1:01:25

are who haven't been challenged

1:01:27

the way you have, who have never been on stage.

1:01:29

Right, there's something to be said for

1:01:32

the fact that we need the music

1:01:34

infrastructure as

1:01:36

a training ground.

1:01:38

Right, somebody needs to know what

1:01:41

it's like. I mean, that's so anyway, my

1:01:43

feelings about it are. I'm very passionate. It's

1:01:47

not it's not actually gone. Record

1:01:49

labels make more money than they ever made?

1:01:53

Is that true?

1:01:54

Record labels make more money than they ever

1:01:56

made? Are truly we thought that record

1:01:58

labels were kind of on.

1:02:03

Yeah, No, record

1:02:05

labels are killing it.

1:02:07

Universal Music is worth

1:02:10

over fifty billion dollars bro

1:02:12

a music company. I'm not talking about film

1:02:14

or TV or tech. I'm talking about music

1:02:17

content that you created.

1:02:19

Right, But Universal

1:02:21

at this point owned so many properties in

1:02:23

that way, right, Like not it's not as many individuals.

1:02:26

I mean, they've been they've been gobbling up labels for years.

1:02:28

But the point is that they are

1:02:30

making the record labels are making

1:02:32

an absolute fortune, Okay,

1:02:35

an absolute fortune, and

1:02:38

I don't begrudge it.

1:02:39

It's beautiful. You know.

1:02:41

I wish I was right there getting bonuses right now, and

1:02:43

I'm not mad at it. But the point of it

1:02:45

is that the infrastructure hasn't died. It

1:02:47

takes a record label to say, okay, hey,

1:02:49

little Naz that's an example, Little

1:02:51

Naz X. He comes out with his

1:02:54

old Town Road, it becomes some kind of a phenomenon

1:02:56

independently by the way it gets picked up by

1:02:58

a major label. This is an artist

1:03:01

like him or not. This is an artist that

1:03:03

has a massive creative vision right

1:03:06

and it needs to have the kind

1:03:08

of financial support that

1:03:11

he can he can get

1:03:13

that off.

1:03:14

He can't do that independently.

1:03:16

Those ideas are too big, honestly,

1:03:18

those I just those ideas are very

1:03:20

expensive.

1:03:21

Otherwise we get a we get a fraction of.

1:03:23

Who this artist could be if he wasn't

1:03:25

signed to Columbia Records. I'm saying

1:03:27

that he would be a success, but he'd be a fraction

1:03:30

of the artist that he could be because now

1:03:32

he has the infrastructure.

1:03:34

To really get it off.

1:03:35

He's an artist that fits in that mold.

1:03:38

I mean for me, when I talk young artists coming up,

1:03:40

my thing is just if you're gonna sign to a

1:03:42

label, if you're gonna do that, my advice

1:03:45

is, if you're gonna do it, you might as well

1:03:47

play big. You might as well swing for the fences.

1:03:49

Like that's the only reason to do it.

1:03:50

That's the only reason if you just want to, if

1:03:53

you're just truly an independent person, not

1:03:55

just as a label, but just as

1:03:57

a creator, you know what I mean, if you just want to look, I

1:03:59

just want to do ship when I feel like it, put it out when

1:04:01

I feel like it. It's great. But

1:04:04

a major label is not for you,

1:04:06

Like, that's not what that is.

1:04:08

It's not for everybody. But to me, the game

1:04:10

is not for everybody.

1:04:12

That's what I'm trying to say, is that it's not for

1:04:15

everybody, and it shouldn't be so easy to get

1:04:17

in.

1:04:18

It's hard.

1:04:19

It takes it's harder to You can't just get in the NBA

1:04:21

because you like basketball, it's

1:04:23

right.

1:04:24

Can there be some gray in between what you're saying and

1:04:26

what's going on right now? Is there more gray than your

1:04:29

mate?

1:04:29

Possibly? I'm open minded,

1:04:31

that's quite possible.

1:04:33

But what I'm but but what i'm what I am,

1:04:35

what I am a

1:04:37

strong advocate of, is are

1:04:40

you serious about the game?

1:04:41

Are you serious about this?

1:04:42

Because ship I don't like

1:04:44

the idea like this is not this is not for hobbyists.

1:04:47

Serious don't mean what it used to mean. Serious

1:04:50

I know, and that bothers me.

1:04:53

Serious don't mean trade, reading your trades

1:04:55

and reading all your books that don't.

1:04:57

But are you the last of the Mohicans?

1:04:59

Like I know there's you, I know there's Sylvia.

1:05:02

I don't know if Doug Marris is still in the game or not,

1:05:05

but you know, like

1:05:08

someone else is running that. I don't know who's running Death

1:05:10

Jam now, but someone that.

1:05:15

Yes, And he's really talented

1:05:18

and and I'm happy,

1:05:20

I'm proud. I will support and

1:05:22

promote and and do anything.

1:05:24

He is really talented.

1:05:27

And he's about that music. He's about

1:05:29

culture. He's bringing African

1:05:31

culture into the country. He's

1:05:34

looking forward, and he's doing it based

1:05:36

on talent. He's doing it based

1:05:38

on qualification. And he's

1:05:40

not just looking at at data

1:05:43

and saying I should sign this because extremely

1:05:45

he's looking at it and he's listening to the me.

1:05:48

It was very much it very much reminded me. His

1:05:50

trajectory was very much like you in

1:05:52

the sense that he cool was

1:05:55

like his face. So yeah, you

1:05:57

know, I mean, and then you know he came and they brought him

1:05:59

in run. Yeah.

1:06:01

By the way, like I don't know what

1:06:03

the roots are exactly up

1:06:05

to recording artists wise, if

1:06:08

it was me as a music curator,

1:06:11

now, deaf Jam is the perfect place, man.

1:06:15

Well guess what.

1:06:17

We you know, you

1:06:20

know, the thing where like I don't

1:06:22

know the movie or the the sitcom example

1:06:25

of like when you think you're

1:06:28

you're like that's your last statement, and you like

1:06:30

burn the house down, or like you're the

1:06:32

father, like and I'm leaving the family and

1:06:34

you leave and then you come back because you forgot your keys.

1:06:38

Uh.

1:06:38

We just got reminded by deaf Jam.

1:06:41

Oh by the way, I remember what we said,

1:06:43

but you guys actually do. Oh it's one more

1:06:45

record.

1:06:46

So it's like, I

1:06:49

think this.

1:06:49

Is a great thing because

1:06:52

because I think that I I

1:06:54

know that he loves you.

1:06:57

I know that he loves the roots and

1:07:00

understands it. And it's also

1:07:02

possible that he might make a suggestion or

1:07:04

two that you might like write about try

1:07:06

this to try that right.

1:07:08

I think it's that to.

1:07:09

Me, literally all the signings

1:07:11

I feel like are the Rooge's grandchildren.

1:07:13

So yes, all right, oh they

1:07:15

are.

1:07:16

That's what I'm trying to say. That's exactly what

1:07:18

I'm trying to say. Right, that one

1:07:20

to me, you know, as

1:07:23

someone you didn't ask, right,

1:07:25

that's.

1:07:28

That works.

1:07:29

I got no man,

1:07:31

I know you.

1:07:32

I just want to say this, man, you played a very and

1:07:34

I'm so happy we're having a chance to had this conversation.

1:07:37

Uh, you played a part in my career that I'm

1:07:39

sure you have no idea he did it.

1:07:41

But this is back in like two thousand

1:07:43

and seven. You had a group on your on the

1:07:45

jam Player Circle that they were thro DTP And

1:07:48

so my man did not poor. He

1:07:50

hit me to do some records. He was like, yo, man,

1:07:53

I'm burnout. I need just some look ideas whatever.

1:07:55

And I was like, all right, cool, whatever. So I

1:07:57

just referenced a couple who got this for him and send them

1:07:59

off. And I ain't think that knows of it. And

1:08:01

so the song that I

1:08:03

did it was a song called paper Chaser,

1:08:05

and I just sang it as a reference and

1:08:08

so the joint ended up. I didn't find

1:08:10

out until like later that the song actually

1:08:12

made the record, and so I ran into Titty

1:08:15

and Dollar. We was at BT boards and O seven and

1:08:18

uh Me and Dalla was talking. He was like, oh

1:08:20

my god. I was like, gonna find tape.

1:08:21

Man.

1:08:21

He was like, oh yo, what's up? And I'm like, what the

1:08:23

hell? And he said, man, the thing with that

1:08:26

record? He said, we sent it in

1:08:28

and he said we was thinking about like getting ACN

1:08:31

on it because Akon was going up at that time. He

1:08:33

was like, we was thinking about getting like a kN or somebody

1:08:35

went on it, he said. But l A. Reid was like, Yo,

1:08:38

who's the dude the singing on it? I like him

1:08:40

just it sounds good like that. Just keep it, you

1:08:42

know what I'm saying. And I just

1:08:44

want to say thank you so much. Really

1:08:47

that really put uh you really

1:08:49

gave me just a lot of confidence and believe I'm

1:08:51

like, yo, this dude. I

1:08:55

was like, Yo, that's just

1:08:57

thank you. Thank you so much for that.

1:08:58

Man.

1:08:58

That really meant a lot.

1:09:00

Thank you. That's great. I'm so happy to

1:09:02

hear that. We thank you, guys, thank

1:09:04

you, thank you.

1:09:05

I appreciate this on behalf

1:09:07

of every quick Thank you for

1:09:10

putting out splack of belly by pressure.

1:09:12

Yeah.

1:09:15

By the way, mir you are

1:09:18

like you like you're the

1:09:20

dopest dude in this business. Man like just

1:09:22

that's I just I really love and appreciate

1:09:24

you. Man like you. You just Yeah,

1:09:27

you make me proud to be a part of this thing. Well,

1:09:30

I think represent us well. And

1:09:32

I appreciate you for not not dropping me

1:09:34

on my birthday.

1:09:36

I'll never forget, I think.

1:09:37

By the way, I don't think that's the truth,

1:09:40

but I'm gonna let you have it. I was

1:09:42

trying to get him a finished that.

1:09:44

What that was.

1:09:44

I don't even know how you do that.

1:09:47

I called you on my birthday.

1:09:49

I remember that. I remember

1:09:51

that.

1:09:51

But anyway, half of Bill

1:09:54

and Sugar.

1:09:54

Steve, sorry, Steve Week once again

1:09:57

hogged all your questions.

1:09:58

I've been reading my a recent episode

1:10:00

of black Beat Magazine the whole time.

1:10:02

Yeah, you tap, you tapped out on your shop, Sugar,

1:10:05

you tapped out on me.

1:10:06

But it's all good, all right.

1:10:07

On the Apple Light, Ya and fant Ticcolo

1:10:09

and the Great La Reed. This is West

1:10:11

Love Supreme and We'll see

1:10:13

you on the next go round. West

1:10:27

Love Supreme is a production of iHeart

1:10:29

Radio For

1:10:32

more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the

1:10:34

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1:10:37

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