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2:15

Hello and welcome to this week!

2:17

Sidebar We're here to discuss episode

2:19

fourteen. Of season two of Hurt. And

2:35

were here reporting live from a

2:37

hotel gym room It's share. A

2:39

few minutes ago though we are in

2:42

the hotel else and susan surreal as

2:44

she was recording the yo underneath a

2:46

blanket tell if his mistakes. That means

2:48

like a sport or court via hospital. I'm

2:50

sorry I wasn't invited. What

2:53

happens on walks in here right now they

2:55

will be scared and turn around and walk

2:57

away. It's. So sweet And the

2:59

show We heard from a few

3:01

witnesses. We also heard from Gerry

3:03

Conway. A little bit more. One very

3:06

brief phone conversation with him armor when

3:08

it happened to sender were. Both like

3:10

that's. not only expected him to sound

3:12

like nine monsieur what I expected, but

3:14

I don't know. You could tell from

3:16

that little bit of the recording I

3:18

got. He was also very angry so

3:20

his voice seem like high pitched and.

3:23

Angry. But he would not

3:25

engage. I tried slate slow down and see

3:27

if he would talk and he just hung

3:29

up on me. Yeah he wanted to control

3:31

the flow of information. you are disrupting map

3:33

for him. We actually

3:35

had one listener right in this week though about

3:38

that conversation we have with him or other the

3:40

letter the followed of after I'd send out what

3:42

it would that come and say. Oh

3:44

yeah, Oh so we did. We had

3:46

someone right in his said they're saw

3:48

their I believe worked a lot with

3:51

the prison system and inmates and that's

3:53

his understanding of expiration date does not

3:55

mean suicide, It means they're at. Least

3:57

eight so, but he's nowhere close

3:59

to. release date. Almost a decade

4:01

away. So I still think he was

4:03

trying to suddenly threaten, I don't know, it's hard to

4:05

say that, like maybe he doesn't know, maybe Jared

4:08

doesn't know that we know when he actually is

4:10

up for a possible release. I also think with

4:12

this with this guy you

4:15

have to take into account that he's trying

4:17

to control every aspect of

4:19

the conversation and everything he says is

4:21

designed for trauma and

4:23

I don't know if we'll ever know exactly what he

4:25

meant but it was supposed to catch our attention and

4:27

get us talking about it like we are right here.

4:29

Yeah, that's true. So one point to Jared. I also

4:32

think though that he might

4:36

underestimate who we

4:39

are and what we know and how much research

4:41

and time we're putting into this. We

4:43

also heard this episode from Karen

4:46

Greer, that's Eric Greer's mother and

4:48

she talked about what her son was like

4:50

and her last conversation with him which I

4:52

mean I can't imagine having that be your

4:55

last phone call with your child.

4:57

Yeah, it's heartbreaking. She's like

4:59

Eric I can't come get you but just wait

5:01

half an hour. Wait 30 minutes. I'll come get

5:03

you, I'll come get you 30 minutes and he

5:06

couldn't wait for a reason. There's a lot

5:08

we don't know about what happened to Eric

5:10

and there's no reason to think it's necessarily

5:12

connected directly to what happened in

5:15

this case, in Renee's case. But

5:18

it is possible that there is a connection in the

5:20

sense that whatever happened that

5:22

day Eric got in trouble because he was

5:24

acting as a police informant. I've

5:28

heard that from a variety of people and also

5:30

Eric himself and his letters to his mom while

5:32

in jail. He talks about how he

5:34

was gonna go or he already had met

5:36

with Steve Harris and how he expected that

5:38

would get out and

5:41

how his mom didn't need to worry about

5:43

him, what dangerous. So

5:45

we don't know what happened but for

5:48

whatever reason he ends up on the highway out

5:50

there and is killed. And

5:53

you know Eric Greer like to sit on the show, not

5:56

someone I call credible. Like he's not the guy that

5:59

you would just everywhere he says at

6:02

all. But he's also not Josh Barris. He's not

6:04

someone who I could find

6:07

evidence of telling just random

6:09

bizarre scatter shot lies like

6:11

this. That wasn't what he did. And I

6:14

still have never found a reason why he would tell

6:16

this lie, especially not over and over again, like

6:18

committed to as he was. And

6:21

he himself,

6:23

he says straight up in his recorded statement,

6:25

he doesn't know what actually happened. He just knows

6:27

the things he saw and heard from others. But

6:29

I do whatever else

6:31

happened. I believe that Eric believed

6:33

the things he said and that he

6:36

saw the things he said he saw. And

6:39

there's no benefit to him for

6:42

coming forward. And he, and just to

6:44

remind everyone, he came forward about two

6:46

weeks, about two weeks after Renee's body was found at

6:48

the time, there's records of him coming to the police

6:50

or trying to. They weren't that interested in talking to

6:52

him, but he tried to talk to them. And then

6:55

it was two years later, he records the video.

6:58

So there's, there's, there's nothing for him

7:00

to benefit. There's no, there's no reward

7:03

at that point. There's only harm, like

7:06

potential harm. The first time I heard

7:08

the Herr Greer video, the first time

7:10

I saw it and heard it, I thought, who

7:12

does he have an axe to grind here against

7:14

someone? And you all have found nothing for that.

7:16

So that to me was, was my first thought,

7:18

but that's never, there's never been anything

7:20

to come to light to suggest he has an axe

7:22

to grind. They were his friends.

7:25

Yeah. Now, despite the fact, so

7:27

the timing here is that statement that you've heard

7:29

in the show was recorded in 2002 after

7:32

Tylopes's conviction, but before Jake's trial.

7:35

Despite that, that statement is never used

7:37

in court. He never testifies. The sister

7:39

story is never really brought

7:41

up and never brought up for the jury. And

7:43

in fact, it's only mentioned one time in

7:46

the transcripts that we have. And

7:48

it was from prosecutor Charles Schultz

7:50

who is talking

7:52

in court. They're arguing over

7:56

some emotions they have. And

7:58

he kind of added to that. nowhere

8:00

says, there is a person

8:02

out there named Eric Greer that some people said he

8:04

was acting kind of funny. And when

8:06

they're talking about some young girl, he says, shut up

8:08

and don't talk about that. But there's

8:11

no substance behind it. Now,

8:13

that's not at all what Eric Greer was saying. Like,

8:16

what he's talking about seems to be what

8:19

Jamie, the sister was

8:21

saying. But he's obviously

8:23

aware, prosecutors obviously aware that Eric Greer exists,

8:26

but believes there's no substance behind it. Is

8:29

this, could this be a strategy

8:31

to make sure it gets on record so

8:33

that years later it can't come back

8:35

as new evidence or a Brady violation

8:38

or anything? Like, I better just get this

8:40

on the record now. I don't know. It's

8:43

a strange thing to bring up and it's strange that it never

8:46

got more attention. But at the same time, like you

8:48

and me just end up, we saw this case the first

8:50

time, the Eric Greer stuff, we're like, what is this? Like,

8:52

okay, I guess we'll look at that. It

8:54

doesn't, yeah. It seemed both kind of

8:56

too crazy to be true, but also

8:58

like if everyone's talking about this, surely

9:01

it's been vetted. Yes, it was, it's the sort of

9:03

thing. It's like, if this was true, we would know. And since

9:06

we don't know, it's probably not. Only

9:08

in this case, it turns out it was never actually looked at

9:11

despite the fact that people were aware of it.

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visit our website for more details. So

11:22

we had a few questions this week, and one from

11:24

Deb Klein on Facebook, and she wrote, Every

11:27

time Jake's trial is discussed, I keep shouting to

11:29

the void, what's his defense doing? Still waiting to

11:31

hear about his attorney, and why did so much

11:33

happen in court to slip by seemingly unchecked? And

11:38

long answer short is that his attorney just wasn't

11:40

really doing a lot. There's

11:44

nothing particularly notable to talk about

11:46

there, which is why you

11:48

haven't heard much about it. She

11:51

didn't do anything terrible. There was no flagrant,

11:53

notable moment of

11:57

failure. There's nothing like that.

12:00

There's just a lot she didn't do and there is

12:02

stuff she did right and stuff she was pursuing

12:04

hard, I guess and it wasn't

12:06

like she was asleep at the wheel, but there definitely

12:08

was a lot that just Just

12:10

was never done. That's there's not really more

12:12

of a story to it than that. She just didn't do

12:15

it It's hard to know what

12:17

a defense attorney strategy is unless they sit down

12:19

and explain it to you. All right Yes, and

12:21

she declined well, she didn't decline but she never

12:25

She said yes, but then that never sort of

12:27

materialized. Correct And She

12:30

did I mean to give credit like there were a

12:32

few points that she did track down and have a

12:34

good record in place It didn't matter but she did

12:37

she wasn't doing nothing like

12:39

remember the two teenagers who

12:42

told police that They heard

12:44

Jake confess on the phone and admit to like

12:46

beating her native death and then it

12:48

trial they said they you know Made it all up. She

12:50

did track down all the records approved that could have never

12:52

happened because they were never out of Duby at the same

12:55

time So that you know, that was something

12:57

wasn't like she didn't care And when I

12:59

talked to her she was she remembered the case

13:01

immediately She clearly believed it was innocent and that

13:03

this one had gotten wrong And

13:05

I kind of got the sense from her that that was not a thing.

13:07

She said often better cases It's

13:10

hard also just it's hard to know what happened in

13:12

the courtroom just from a trial transcript Right.

13:15

Jake says he was very frustrated with her.

13:17

He felt like she was intimidated by the prosecutor She was

13:19

never really fighting back. But I mean that's That's

13:22

his perception of someone who's never been

13:24

in court like that before and he's also

13:27

the one literally with his life on the line We

13:30

also have a question from Sarah Ck who

13:32

wrote that was a crazy episode What

13:34

was up with that woman getting scared and hanging up on you

13:36

when you asked her if her story happened on a

13:38

rooftop? That was freaky There's

13:40

been a couple of comments From people

13:43

from listeners about the rooftop and the

13:45

the hang-up phone call. Yeah, so

13:47

if you remember Karen Greer Eric's

13:49

mother when I talked to her She says the first

13:51

time she heard about this case or in connection with

13:53

Eric anyway Is when Eric

13:55

had spent a night hanging out her rooftop

13:57

somewhere and then came home early morning hours

13:59

was just hysterical like, you

14:03

know, high, upset, couldn't

14:05

really say much until he went to bed and they talked the

14:07

next day. And I knew

14:10

about the rooftop thing from that and other sources

14:12

and when I mentioned it to this witness, and

14:15

this happened a few times in this case and I've learned to keep

14:17

my mouth shut, like once the people I'm

14:19

talking to learn I already know something about it, that

14:23

tends to freak them out more than anything. Some people

14:25

have been comfortable talking about it so they realize I'm

14:27

already aware of things and that's, they're

14:29

cut off the point. I don't know why she got uncomfortable.

14:31

I don't, I mean, there's nothing

14:33

to suggest she was like heading

14:36

to hide about the case itself. But

14:38

yeah, she clearly had gotten a little bit

14:40

spooked and didn't want to talk anymore.

14:43

Now, as for what happened on the rooftop, we have

14:45

heard a lot of stories in this case and a

14:47

lot of stories about sister story. We

14:49

can't always verify the details. Often the details

14:51

are wrong. So it's

14:53

not always stuff worth airing on the show. In

14:56

this case, the rooftop conversation,

14:59

the rooftop night happened sometime

15:01

in the week after and his body was found. So

15:03

after Eric went to the house up on the avenue

15:06

and everyone there was acting weird and

15:08

it seems like what was

15:10

happening is that on this particular night, no one

15:12

on the rooftop is actually involved on

15:15

the night when it ever happened. None of them were there. But

15:17

they are all aware of something happening and they're all

15:19

kind of accusing one another or trying

15:22

to figure out what happened and they're sort of going

15:24

around saying, well, you must have done it. No,

15:26

you must have done it. But

15:28

it doesn't seem like any of

15:31

them actually knew who done it. But

15:33

the conversation did leave Eric very upset

15:36

and clearly they all felt very strongly

15:38

about what's happening. I don't think anyone

15:41

in that conversation though had

15:43

actual answers. And

15:45

so when people find out that we know about these

15:48

conversations have taken place, you can

15:50

understand why someone might get a little freaked out. In

15:54

your mind, do you think it confirms that conversation

15:56

happened on the rooftop? I mean, we've talked to

15:58

people. We already know that one happened. from

16:00

a lot of sources. So again, when

16:02

you first hear about it, you're like, oh, what's happening in

16:04

this rooftop? What's important? And I guess my conclusion at

16:06

this point is that no one in that particular

16:08

group actually knew enough to know,

16:10

but they're also freaked out by what they do know. They're

16:13

just kind of accusing each other and everyone's being

16:15

worked up over it. But the bigger picture

16:17

is what it means is that a week, a little

16:21

over a week after Renee's body is found, there

16:23

are people in Manteca who

16:26

think they know what

16:28

happened. Yeah. We also have a

16:30

question from Mandy Mans on Instagram

16:32

who actually commented on episode 13 when

16:34

we first talked to Tim Fisher. And

16:37

she asked, interested in

16:39

knowing whether Renee's friends have corroborated Tim's version of

16:41

how they were known to each other. Just

16:43

seems so weird that he was friends with a mother on

16:46

Facebook and made himself a hero in the

16:48

story about her getting drunk, etc. As

16:50

you heard on the most recent episode, episode 13,

16:53

yes, Renee's friends did confirm that

16:55

she and Tim knew each other. Amber

16:58

was the main person in that group who

17:00

also hung out with Tim. A few of

17:02

the others knew of Tim as well, but

17:05

most of them didn't actually have any dealings

17:07

with him. But yeah, for Amber and

17:09

Renee, it was not an uncommon thing for them

17:11

to drive around town with Tim and his little

17:13

dawson and smoking weed and buying alcohol and cigarettes.

17:16

And she also said, though, that Tim never did

17:18

anything that she felt was inappropriate with

17:20

her. She never made advances or anything like

17:23

that. And she didn't know about other people.

17:26

Yeah. And she kind of admitted that they were

17:28

pretty naive. And she seemed really surprised because

17:30

she found out how much older than he was, like nearly,

17:32

not quite a decade, but getting up there. So

17:35

yeah, that part's true. They were friends in that sense.

17:37

They did know each other. They did

17:39

hang out. And as Amber said, Renee

17:42

would immediately get into a car with him if she

17:44

wanted to ride somewhere. And another thing Amber told

17:46

us about that we didn't include in

17:48

the show, we were telling her

17:50

about the story Tim told about a time

17:52

that Renee had gotten drunk

17:54

in the place they call the forest and

17:57

he'd had helped carry her out. She couldn't walk and she peed on

17:59

his feet. arm and it was

18:01

a whole thing and Amber's response

18:04

was, oh, she

18:06

did that to Nick at the Grand Mason too, which is

18:08

the guy that the ex-boyfriend

18:11

Renee that Tim says was

18:13

also there. And we're like,

18:15

wait, where did this happen? And

18:17

we quickly realized it's the same story. And what's

18:21

interesting is that Amber

18:24

says she does not remember Tim being

18:26

there and definitely does not recall him

18:28

carrying Renee away. She had

18:30

a very clear memory of Nick was the one who

18:32

had to carry her out of the field. We

18:35

don't know why their memories differ. And Amber

18:37

even said, she's like, I can't

18:39

say he wasn't there. I just don't recall him being there. But

18:42

it was interesting to us that the story that has,

18:46

as the question said, has Tim being the hero

18:48

in it. Amber had no memory of

18:50

that part. But like you said, Amber said he

18:52

could have very well have been there

18:54

and I just don't remember it. Yeah, quite to

18:56

have been watching from afar and saw this happen

18:58

and retelling the story and started himself in

19:01

the hero's role, which would not be uncommon. That's

19:03

I think people do often enough.

19:05

Unfortunately, we can't reach out to Nick

19:07

to get his perspective, which could be

19:09

an entirely third kind of memory because

19:11

he died. So it's

19:14

Amber's memory versus Tim's. People remember

19:16

things very differently when you're talking

19:19

decades on. And doesn't mean

19:22

they're lying. They just remember them differently. Yeah, exactly.

19:25

Definitely have the experience of the bitch killer witnesses,

19:27

which is what we refer to them as. It's

19:29

the ones who Tim told us about first actually,

19:32

who had confronted him about rumors that

19:34

he'd been seen with Renee before she died.

19:36

And Tim tells the story

19:38

about how they

19:41

all three together had basically

19:43

jumped him. We're going to beat him up. But

19:46

then a magical crowbar appeared and he's able to

19:48

send them off. And I remember thinking at a

19:50

time, I'm like, this story doesn't sound very

19:52

real. And then

19:55

I talked to a couple people involved and they're

19:57

like, no, that didn't happen at all here. Like

19:59

what happened It's like people were accusing

20:01

him, people were saying he was seen with her, I confronted

20:03

him, we didn't even fight. And

20:05

then finally I find one of the people involved and he's like,

20:08

oh yeah, Tim came back with a crowbar. I'm like, okay,

20:10

so the crowbar thing is true. Circumstances

20:12

sound different. I don't know whose version is the

20:14

most correct, if it's Tim's or if it's Ernie's,

20:16

but like... It almost

20:18

seems like two merged memories. Yeah.

20:22

But some incident involving a

20:24

crowbar and Tim defending himself

20:26

against accusations is,

20:29

seems like it did happen. Yeah.

20:32

And unfortunately, the people

20:34

I spoke to in that

20:36

neighborhood, they don't

20:38

recall who told them a lot of what they heard

20:40

back then. Or they say they

20:42

don't recall who told them what they heard back then. But

20:46

they were very adamant. They're like, yeah, everyone there

20:48

was like, he was just seen with Renee right

20:50

before she died. I'm like, well,

20:52

who saw them there? And now 20,

20:55

almost 24 years later, they

20:57

can't remember, which is unfortunate.

21:00

But what we do know is that Jenny, she

21:02

called the cops, she talked to the cops, she reported what she knew.

21:07

She told us, for instance, she explained that like,

21:10

she thought she knew that Tim hated women because

21:12

she thought that Tim played pool sometimes at Ernie's

21:15

sister's house. And she thinks now

21:17

that they remember him making comments about

21:20

women that showed he was misogynist

21:23

from that. And then she remembers hearing people

21:25

talk about, you know, him and Renee being

21:27

seen together. And she thought she heard a

21:29

story about him being jealous of her or something. But

21:33

this far on, she doesn't recall that he

21:35

was saying it. But she says she would

21:37

have known for sure back then if the police had ever called

21:39

her back, she would have told her right away. So

21:43

if she did know someone who saw Renee and Tim together,

21:45

she could have told them the name right then and they

21:47

never called her. The other thing

21:49

about her story, though, it also doesn't seem

21:51

like she had, she didn't

21:53

see them together. She did not. She's

21:56

heard. She's not to him. So she'd

21:58

seen Tim interacted with him. She knew something about him. Like

22:00

the thing about him hating women she thinks she heard

22:02

him talking at the playing pool But

22:04

she knows she didn't see Renee and Tim together.

22:07

It's another example of the rumor mill

22:09

in Manteca Yeah, yeah, but it's

22:11

also interesting to note though that these

22:13

two rumors like the bitch killer rumors That

22:15

is entirely separate from the sister story. These people don't

22:18

know one another they're not aware of it The

22:20

people who know the rumors from the street level

22:22

court they were almost entirely

22:25

I think almost all of them unaware was being

22:27

said about the sister story They hadn't

22:29

heard any of that. They'd heard a separate set of

22:31

talk that was just about Tim and nothing to

22:34

do with the house It's on Avenue So

22:36

two separate circles two separate sets

22:38

of rumors and Tim's the only overlapping

22:41

point also by the way I would be

22:43

very happy if I never have to say bitch killer again

22:46

that You

22:50

made a plane of making sure I

22:55

asked her to I messaged her and Simon

22:57

separately Thank you. Thank

22:59

you for that. I probably said it about

23:01

12 times in that episode actually bitch killer.

23:03

So yeah Well, I do remember those

23:06

and that we were we were in the car together driving

23:10

Somewhere and I was looking up you

23:12

were driving. I was looking for the lyrics the song we

23:14

just heard about and I remember reading them and

23:17

I Had no I

23:19

couldn't I didn't imagine it was that bad. Yeah, I

23:21

think we were actually driving back to the airport

23:23

Yeah, and you were reading the lyrics out

23:25

loud and I too was like what like

23:27

this is Pretty

23:30

bad and just I mean, I don't

23:32

know what Tim's thought process was but I do

23:35

Yeah, I'd like to put that

23:37

on your skateboard after your friend was murdered while

23:40

possibly walking alone somewhere seemed Definitely

23:45

seemed incongruent with the caring

23:47

friend. He tried to position himself ass

23:51

Yeah, but Ernie, I think Ernie says the best race like

23:53

I'm not gonna beat someone up over a

23:55

sticker on a skateboard It's actually Chris. Oh,

23:57

it's good if he said that cuz Ernie did be I

24:00

got them mixed up. Yeah,

24:02

though Chris is like, I don't know what's on the skateboard. Ernie

24:05

was like, oh, I saw that and it was on. I

24:09

don't know. I mean, it's one of those things like, so

24:11

he's got a sticker on a skateboard. Like, does that prove

24:14

anything? No. Was

24:16

it a bad choice? Probably. So

24:20

next week, we returned

24:22

to Vantica again and attempt

24:25

to tuck Tim Fisher for a second time. So

24:27

we're going to be learning more about him and

24:29

the case and the sister's house in general and

24:32

find out what it'll say when we can ask better

24:34

questions. Now we're ready to meet with him

24:37

and actually ask him about things that we've learned that

24:39

we didn't know the first time we talked to him. So

24:42

come back next week for episode 15,

24:44

which will also be

24:46

the third to last episode in our

24:48

series. You've

24:56

been listening to Proof Sidebar, a

24:58

podcast by Red Marble Media in

25:00

association with Glassbox Media. Send

25:03

us your questions and comments

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at [email protected]. Follow

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us everywhere with the handle at

25:10

proofcrimepod and on our website proofcrimepod.com.

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Regular episodes drop on Mondays and you

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can find sidebars on Thursdays. Thanks so

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