0:01

a quick heads up before we get started this

0:03

episode contains a mention suicide

0:05

please take care while listening

0:08

three

0:09

days after ted kaczynski was taken into

0:11

custody kathy, puckett arrived

0:13

at the 10 by 12 cabin up in the hills, off

0:15

stemple pass, road agents

0:18

from the evidence team where they're in and out,

0:20

kathy stepped inside he

0:22

had a bunk to the right that

0:25

had an army green army blanket on

0:27

it there

0:27

was a wood-burning stove in one corner next

0:30

to a chair that looked homemade

0:32

and the wall

0:34

the plywood wall that

0:37

, was but it up to there were images

0:39

of his body in his body

0:41

greece and and

0:43

from you know i mean he rarely washed

0:46

and so there were outlines of where

0:48

he had sat for years against

0:50

that wall in different outlines of

0:53

his body

0:54

when at the age and first stepped into the cabin

0:57

they found shells filled with dry goods

0:59

and bomb making materials there

1:01

were guides to edible wild plants and

1:03

literary books like joseph conrad's

1:06

novel the secret agent which

1:08

is about is about who quits academia

1:10

then launches an anti science bombing

1:12

one of his

1:15

rifles, a thirty-ought-six hung

1:17

on wall his bed, with a detailed

1:19

note he'd written about how to properly calibrate

1:21

the siding an

1:22

old-timey string instrument

1:25

called a zither hung nearby on a nail

1:28

there were a couple jackets to

1:30

including a faded and tattered blue hoodie

1:33

the first thing i thought was he never saw coming

1:35

for he would a gotten rid of the

1:43

of firewood at what it is

1:45

bad that actually turned out to be steps

1:48

went up to a loft was cool though

1:50

that it's a , he's ever helped

1:52

a relative move after they've been living somewhere for

1:54

thirty years and they're kind of a hoarder there

1:57

are layers and layers and layers

1:59

of

1:59

life of just accumulated

2:02

there

2:03

that i thought

2:04

twenty five years he's been here

2:07

you know i was just

2:08

i i couldn't see enough

2:16

cathy's main job was to come through twenty five

2:18

years of ted's writing around forty

2:20

thousand pages worth of stuff the

2:23

evidence team removed it all from ted's cabin

2:25

made copies then deliver them to

2:28

kathy

2:28

i always call in the porcupine papers because

2:31

a lot of them you're there might be pages

2:33

of a recipe

2:33

the porcupines do

2:35

kathy says she barely slept for the next

2:37

couple of weeks she'd spend

2:39

all day immersed in the journals then

2:42

go back to back motel room and night with

2:44

words from ted's diaries floating through her

2:46

head as she went to sleep

2:48

it really was like

2:51

walking through his mind

2:53

he made you completely into his head

2:56

and it was the the most

2:58

intimate portrait i think

3:01

that he painted because he was so alone

3:03

and he was the only one he was talking to this

3:05

was a diary to himself

3:08

is it was magnificent

3:18

the cat he spent day after day digging into

3:20

the complete works of theodore john kaczynski

3:23

david kaczynski was doing the same in

3:26

part this was at the request of ted's defense lawyers

3:29

in preparation for his upcoming trial it

3:32

was awesome more personal an agonizing

3:34

i remember once they defense

3:38

, parked me in a hotel for

3:40

a week with about forty thousand pages

3:43

of my brothers diaries diaries

3:45

never read before and then some

3:47

reading these diaries and trying to process

3:51

heard it said gets like this said the sisters

3:54

this said know

3:58

you know just

3:59

just a constant sort of wonder

4:02

and and then was a

4:04

the best brother i could has been you

4:06

know maybe he had

4:08

to be turned in but maybe i could have helped him earlier

4:16

i was probably his closest relationship

4:19

of him throughout his adulthood and

4:21

with lives except for

4:23

a couple of years we lived thousands of miles

4:25

apart only communicated through

4:28

, letter

4:30

was sort of in of his

4:32

cabin became an cabin chamber

4:35

for this spiraling

4:39

into negativity

4:46

that had gone into the woods seeking solitude

4:49

and peace instead he found

4:51

isolation and torment his

4:53

ideas about the evils of civilization

4:56

growing louder inside his head once

4:59

the manifesto is published and he was unmasked

5:01

as the unabomber he wasn't

5:03

alone with his thoughts there

5:06

was a public out engaging

5:08

with him trying to figure out what

5:11

do we make of this man's ideas what

5:14

make a of him this

5:16

is project an apple original

5:18

podcast, produced by pineapple street studios

5:21

i'm eric benson, this

5:23

is our final episode episode

5:26

8, echo chamber

5:43

in april nineteen eighty five five months

5:45

before the publication of the manifesto ted

5:48

sent a letter to the new york times it

5:50

arrived on the same day that his sixteenth and final

5:52

bomb killed the california logging lobbyist

5:55

gilbert marie he wrote

5:57

that his goal was the destruction

5:59

of the worldwide industrial system

6:02

this bombing campaign was meant to

6:05

quote promote social instability

6:07

in industrial society propagate

6:09

anti industrial ideas and

6:12

given courage meant to those who hate the industrial

6:14

system the lot

6:16

of people read those words and thoughts that

6:19

guy's nuts the destruction

6:21

of the worldwide industrial system

6:24

the topic something a james bond villain would cackle

6:27

and also he was going to bring modern civilization

6:29

to it's knees by sending one bomb a year

6:32

to some unlucky professor a businessman

6:34

that may not have decimated

6:36

the global order the he was right

6:39

about his ability to spread the word and

6:41

reach fellow travelers o

6:43

two modes to do after his arrest this

6:45

is john years and the former

6:47

nineteen sixties campus radical it

6:50

looks like one shaggy white

6:52

hair a full beard wire

6:54

rimmed glasses but ,

6:56

the years he went from leftist radical to

6:59

leftists skeptic evolving

7:01

into a self described anarchist and technophobe

7:04

than i do have tape sound so bad he

7:07

had trouble hooking up his computer to record this

7:09

interview by the

7:11

spring of ninety ninety six wins years and reached

7:13

out to ted he was a well established writer

7:15

himself attracted a following

7:18

preaching the gospel that wasn't all that different

7:20

from the universe but

7:22

years and got published in undergrad journals

7:25

had had managed to get published in the washington post

7:28

i wanted to

7:30

what do you think when he was riding with

7:32

the yeah again as yes

7:35

auto detect it will suffer as you

7:38

how did your own we

7:41

the word is out there

7:43

to acceptable

7:44

the a part of the conversation

7:47

society

7:49

pedro back and a friendship started by

7:51

that point kids case was moving through federal

7:53

court he'd been indicted in june

7:56

for transporting and mailing explosive devices

7:58

with intent to kill and plead not

8:00

guilty then attorney general

8:02

janet reno decided to go all in the

8:05

government would be pushing for the death penalty for

8:09

david it was crushing

8:10

i was feeling very upset

8:14

you know we have done what we had done

8:16

to prevent loss of life

8:19

in a we've been collaborating working very closely

8:22

with the government and now the government was

8:24

on the other side is said well

8:26

listener has to be one more death sabres

8:28

nam sorry but it's gonna be your brother

8:31

the ten was going to get some of the best federal public

8:34

defenders in the country one

8:36

of his attorneys was judy clarke who

8:38

is under way to becoming a legendary anti

8:40

death penalty attorney clark

8:42

famously doesn't speak to the media but

8:44

jones years and got to know or back then

8:47

the started visiting ted in jail in the spring

8:49

of ninety ninety seven about a year after

8:51

his arrest there's

8:53

and says that every time he showed up heads

8:56

lawyers were there they told

8:58

them that as long as they were in the room the

9:00

meeting was protected under attorney client privilege

9:02

so ted said something incriminating

9:05

while he was talking with john it was okay

9:07

the would be protected

9:09

okay

9:11

that there were there is the reason

9:13

was they wanted to spy on me

9:15

make sure i'm not

9:18

trying to get into do a political trial

9:21

oh you're playing on if they wanted

9:23

because they were

9:25

i will say that tell the

9:27

little over whether or

9:31

not he means is judy clarke

9:33

in her team they're only goal

9:35

was to keep tantalize and

9:37

letting ted turn the courtroom into a lecture hall

9:40

talking about shock on the wall and prehistoric

9:42

hunter gatherer societies i

9:44

wasn't get assuage gary clark

9:47

and her team or in clark bind from the start ted's

9:50

cabin had basically been start full confession

9:52

in physical form he'd written

9:54

down everything accounts of the

9:56

bombings notes on his experiments

9:58

as he constructed each new to there

10:01

was a master copy of the manifesto in the attic

10:03

next to the famous smith corona typewriter

10:06

what good lawyers do

10:09

they settled on what is known as

10:11

a mental defect defense

10:13

they'd , that ted his delusions

10:15

and paranoia that rendered him incapable

10:18

of actually intending murder murder

10:21

wasn't some cynical ploy like pretending

10:23

a wily mafia bosses mentally unfit

10:25

because he's shuffling around the neighborhood his bathrobe

10:28

and slippers concerns about

10:30

ted's mental health were decades old his

10:33

parents had talked about it when he was a teenager

10:36

david had grown increasingly worried as

10:38

ted's letters to him became more vindictive

10:41

and cruel in the early

10:43

nineties david linda even talked

10:45

with the psychiatrist about the possibility

10:47

of having ted hospitalized ted

10:50

have a mental defect the

10:53

experts hired by the defense to examine ted

10:55

in person diagnosed him as having

10:57

schizophrenia paranoid time the

11:00

baker diagnosis at least in part

11:02

on his extreme anti technology views

11:06

he refused to me with the government's experts

11:08

to they had to make their assessments solely on ted's

11:10

writings they didn't see mental

11:12

illness once your kids mind

11:15

screamed geek not schizophrenia

11:19

people he was working closely with the government team

11:21

these done this

11:24

case and and you're reading what what do you think

11:27

was he mentally ill

11:29

well

11:30

he was certainly emotionally disturbed

11:32

and haven't had a personnel the i

11:34

think he had a severe personality disorder i

11:38

tended to side with psychiatrists

11:41

ah doctors deeds and

11:43

resnick

11:44

our gates and fill a bresnik they

11:47

were the forensic psychiatrist hired by

11:49

the government

11:50

they essentially took

11:52

my three hundred pages of excerpts

11:55

from all of the writings the writings them all in chronological

11:57

order for them they

12:00

didn't see any evidence of psychosis

12:02

and specifically they didn't think ted

12:05

met the criteria for paranoid schizophrenia

12:07

it said com the disorder

12:09

where there's an impairment

12:12

in the ability to know what's

12:13

when when is real

12:15

and i didn't ever see any evidence

12:17

of that i saw very very

12:19

reasons and and ability to see

12:21

the world as it was and he didn't like

12:23

it

12:29

the trial approached john's years and

12:32

continued to visit ted in jail according

12:35

to zero than ten , know

12:37

what his defense team was up to ten

12:39

told john he was mostly agnostic

12:41

about what strategy his lawyers used

12:44

with one exception worth ,

12:46

there two thousand five hundred seventy

12:49

different tendency to take

12:51

out

12:52

harper government

12:54

cylinder with

12:56

, food early early

12:59

jury selection began years and

13:01

says he says the only

13:03

one day and i said

13:05

jennifer our

13:08

the defending freedom

13:12

very

13:13

the have figured he

13:15

said why the line batch the

13:19

only site

13:22

the bearer for

13:24

the moment

13:25

the dagger was easy to understand for years

13:28

have because he said the

13:31

just make make of these ideas

13:33

if i'm like how to kill a killer

13:35

it only , reason

13:38

these that happens and happens and

13:41

sekai well so much

13:43

for the arguments much only this is

13:46

just proves the dominant sorry the killer

13:49

a madman

13:51

it was toward and move

13:53

on

14:02

in late november nineteen ninety seven

14:04

during jury selection ted

14:06

the sitting at the defense table as he heard one

14:08

of his attorneys discussing a plan attorneys use

14:10

his psych evaluation says evidence in the

14:13

trial the appeared to be furious

14:16

if you're a pen it is legal team the

14:18

only gets stranger from there six

14:21

weeks later on the first day of the trial he

14:23

torpedoed the proceedings as soon as the

14:25

judge stepped up to the bench i

14:27

want to address the issue of my attorneys ten

14:30

announced from his seat there

14:32

is upset with his attorneys the by

14:34

the end of the day he agreed to continue be

14:36

represented by them two

14:38

days later he changed his mind he

14:41

wanted to are you in court he had to send

14:43

bombs to the mail because he thought it

14:45

would bring down the industrial system and

14:47

ultimately save untold lives from the

14:49

escalating horrors of technology the

14:52

pursue that new strategy had told

14:54

the judge you would need to fire his legal team

14:57

and replace them with another lawyer

14:59

and the judge had denied that

15:02

and in his desperation that

15:05

night he tried to hang himself the

15:08

holding cell with his underwear

15:10

he twisted into a not and

15:13

, to hang himself and he found him in

15:15

time but it became but

15:17

it news story

15:18

the information or we received from the us marshal

15:21

was that when he arrived at the courthouses morning

15:23

he , a red mark on the right

15:26

side of his neck neck had no

15:28

underwear or when or he

15:30

said he lost his underwear in his shower the

15:33

morning after the suicide attempt to

15:35

the clark told the judge the ted wanted to represent

15:37

himself that he couldn't endure

15:39

hearing his legal team describe him as mentally

15:41

deficient

15:43

the judge said it considered ted's request

15:46

then he ordered his own psychiatric evaluation

15:49

that's like i trust found the ted

15:51

was quite possibly schizophrenia that

15:53

was also competent to represent himself

15:56

he had a quote excellent sexual

15:58

understanding of the legal

15:59

the seatings

16:01

the when the trial reconvened the

16:03

judge decided essentially that the psychiatric

16:06

evaluation he ordered didn't matter it

16:08

had enough as request represent

16:11

himself had come too late he

16:13

accused added trying to manipulate the legal

16:15

system instead a defense strategy

16:17

based around the evils of technology

16:20

was almost certain to result in ted being executed

16:24

one it as lawyers spoke they

16:26

would plead guilty without conditions meaning

16:28

ted had surrendered his right to appeal the bird

16:32

the government withdrew their pursuit of the death penalty

16:35

the trial was over before it started and

16:38

sentencing three months later had

16:40

refused to apologize for as eighteen

16:42

year bombing campaign he said

16:45

i ask only that people reserve judgment

16:47

on me and the uni bomber case

16:50

the victims and their families did not headset

16:53

stone faced as low as epstein

16:56

charles epstein wife told

16:58

him from the stand that hatred had

17:00

mangled and distorted his mind

17:03

susan moser thomas mazuz

17:05

widow needed to the judge that

17:07

he please keep this creature out of

17:09

society forever bury

17:11

him so far down he'll be closer to hell

17:14

because that's where the devil belongs

17:18

john here then was in the packed courtroom that

17:20

day that he started afterwards

17:22

in jail and ass what happened

17:24

the her vertically oh the damn

17:27

thing

17:27

they are enormous relatives and

17:29

stuff people

17:32

they were injured or killed

17:34

dollars emotional somewhere

17:36

opposing about this are crying and

17:38

between you

17:40

they also focus

17:42

the toilet

17:44

the greenery the

17:46

the couldn't grab that

17:48

oh

17:50

the

17:51

you off the so spokesman

17:53

er or whoever it

17:55

there are you at

17:58

some emotional reaction

17:59

this is just took me a very cool

18:02

you know what i

18:04

, was go go

18:08

to

18:14

by that point even many hardcore anarchists

18:17

were leery of ted this , couldn't

18:19

just a point himself to be a one man execution

18:22

squad on behalf of the enemies of technology

18:25

technology years and didn't see it that it to

18:28

him all the attention being paid

18:30

to ted was to opportunity and

18:32

he anti tech activists who wanted to distance

18:35

themselves from to unit bomber just

18:37

didn't have the bomber of their convictions i

18:39

tried to take advantage to

18:42

to push the idea of you know

18:47

progressive news would you do they

18:49

just wouldn't work for

18:51

girls would ask them about it for

18:54

you people from time to go to really

18:56

think about six per view marty

18:59

own always freak the fuck

19:01

out verges was recovered

19:05

or goes to the addict who

19:07

you want us to to say something

19:09

that people are listening and you

19:11

tube the just picking your plan you

19:13

the same company

19:23

kirby puckett within the courtroom when ted was

19:25

sentenced but , found a different

19:27

kind of closure during the trial for

19:29

two years ever since david angrily

19:32

hung up on her on the day of the raid feeling

19:34

betrayed that his name has been leaked to the press

19:37

the hadn't spoken to him but

19:39

in a courtroom they couldn't avoid each other

19:42

he looked over at me any had most

19:45

concerned , on his face face

19:48

then he started moving toward the center oil

19:51

and oil got up and started moving towards the central

19:53

and most of the press was out

19:55

on recess and most of the attendees

19:58

were out on recess the jury wasn't

20:00

fair and , walked

20:02

up to me and shook his head with the sad smile

20:06

and we just hugged each other big hug

20:08

big said i'm so sorry this

20:10

is been so tough on you guys and you know

20:12

that's not what i wanted for you and

20:15

he said he said he said i'm i'm sorry

20:17

for what i said to you

20:19

they said

20:20

you know

20:21

thank you once again for everything

20:23

it for us

20:25

you

20:38

we've taken to atx florence the

20:40

federal supermax prison in colorado where

20:42

he spent the next twenty three years you

20:45

might think his legacy would be cemented a

20:48

mass murderer living out the rest of his life

20:50

in solitary confinement one of

20:52

the most infamous pariahs of american

20:54

history that he has his fans

20:57

any archive at the university of michigan thera

21:00

boxes and boxes full of letters written

21:02

to ted while he's been sitting in federal custody

21:05

a , lot of them probably most of them

21:08

are from every day presumably nonviolent

21:10

people who see ted kaczynski

21:12

as a kind of persecuted martyr an all

21:15

purpose goober goober one

21:17

from an activist who says they are currently living

21:19

twenty feet off the ground and it's renamed

21:21

it's in order to save an old

21:23

save forest i

21:25

support the cause you are fighting for and totally

21:27

agree with him a letter with tells ted

21:30

there's one from a college student who asked

21:32

heads opinion on the political rise of bernie

21:35

the political donald trump than

21:37

rights i feel oddly

21:39

more comfortable bring up questions of intellectually

21:41

sensitive material to you rather

21:44

than the meat audience prevalent in the oppressively

21:46

coddling environment audience modern centers

21:48

the higher education another

21:51

kid tells ted i'm thinking

21:53

of dropping out of school my friend

21:55

eddie said friend should write to you and see what

21:57

you think of my plan some

22:00

people have gone beyond admiration for

22:03

a while a mexican terrorist group

22:05

sent bombs in the mail to scientists

22:08

and published communiques that we're basically paraphrasing

22:10

of ted's writing a norwegian

22:13

white supremacist anders brevik who

22:15

murdered seventy seven people in a killing spree

22:18

plagiarized and then twisted whole passages

22:21

from the unit bombers manifesto for

22:23

his own manifesto it

22:26

had ideas have also been turned into innocuous

22:28

internet means there

22:30

are teams on tic toc using images of

22:32

ted in the cabins to advocate the we

22:34

should quote hashtag returned to

22:36

monkeys believe ,

22:38

designer virgil adler was photographed

22:40

wearing a tee shirts with the forensic sketch

22:42

of the yuna bomber someone

22:44

even used vocal modification technology

22:47

to make it sound like tucker carlson and ronald

22:49

reagan or reading industrial society

22:51

and his future

22:53

the industrial revolution and it's consequences

22:55

of been a disaster for the human race they

22:58

have greatly increased the life expectancy

23:00

of those of us who live in advanced countries

23:02

but they have destabilized society have made life

23:05

unfulfilling of subjected human beings

23:07

to indignities have led to widespread

23:09

psychological suffering in the third world to

23:11

physical suffering as well

23:21

of course the idea technology is

23:23

having an ever more destructive effect on our species

23:25

isn't very surprising i hear

23:28

people saying stuff like this all the time technology

23:31

is destroying us or modern lives

23:33

are fundamentally sick youtube

23:35

and facebook and sub reddit and fox news

23:37

have destroyed any shared sense of trees and

23:41

we are all with our consumption

23:43

or waste are relentless burning of fossil

23:45

fuels pushing the planet to the point

23:47

of no return to say the

23:49

planet is warming faster than at any

23:51

time in at least two thousand years

23:53

multiple feet of sea level rise huge

23:56

food supply disruptions mass

23:58

diocesan the ocean

23:59

man to be there is no

24:02

plan and blah blah blah blah

24:04

blah blah blah

24:05

i don't going

24:07

with our heads and the overlords

24:09

of silicon valley seem to want to make it

24:11

worse

24:12

two percent of king rolled

24:14

said that when they felt bad about their bodies

24:17

instagram made them

24:18

the worse it the motorway it's going a

24:21

fitbit ears go with hey where's to

24:23

as a thing or we have to

24:25

be unhappy big is how we come

24:27

to represent ourselves in the metaverse

24:41

last fall i went to visit one of my best friends

24:44

the recently moved off the grid onto an overgrown

24:47

property in the woods it

24:49

was far less isolated than heads landed

24:51

montana or david's in texas

24:54

and my friend wasn't alone the

24:56

lived there with his long time partner but

24:59

for seeking technological society

25:02

you've done some of that and he's

25:04

not even more about he

25:06

knew i was making a podcast about the yuna bomber

25:08

and as i was leaving he handed me a book to read

25:11

it was short slender the

25:14

book of letters in the mid nineteen twenties

25:16

written by an italian born german

25:18

theologian named romano gardini

25:21

they started flipping the pages when i got home

25:24

and i kept finding passages like this

25:27

that

25:28

the technique of controlling living people is

25:30

developing it had constructed

25:33

rationally and embodied in a

25:35

monstrous system for

25:37

most of us the possibility of

25:39

a free development and central shaping

25:41

of the person has disappeared

25:44

it could have been lifted straight from the manifesto

25:47

except it was written seventy years earlier

25:51

it , be tempting to look at every screwed up develop

25:53

in in our times and think think

25:55

you know bomber was bomber that

25:58

ted was prophetic that this

26:00

topi and predictions for our world of come

26:02

true but up giving

26:04

him too much credit the

26:06

ideas aren't original their ,

26:09

the manifesto is filled with the same kinds of things

26:11

people have been saying about technology for as

26:13

long as machines have been around the

26:16

finger made had unique the ,

26:18

we're still talking about him today today

26:21

it he claimed those ideas as justification

26:23

for justification but

26:26

for all of his efforts to present the manifesto

26:28

is a revolutionary document and himself

26:30

as the inspiration for the movement so

26:33

many of the actions he took the his last non

26:36

violent ones like moving into a tiny

26:38

like in the woods and violent

26:40

ones like trying to blow up an airliner

26:42

with eighty people aboard because he with

26:44

hearing jets flying overhead they

26:47

came down to a powerful very personal desire

26:51

leave me alone

27:00

they didn't send letter

27:02

in the michigan archive from twenty seventeen

27:04

the response to someone who

27:06

had written to him they said they are working

27:09

on the discovery channel mini series manhunt

27:12

you know bomber and they were

27:14

wondering why he didn't engage in sabotage

27:16

instead of murder blow up

27:18

bridges and science labs that kind of thing

27:21

wouldn't doing that instead of randomly

27:23

murdering people on their homes have drawn more

27:25

followers to his cause that's

27:28

reply you're suggesting

27:30

that this could have been done without killing or maiming

27:32

people is downright silly the

27:35

do you suppose would have happened to the people driving

27:38

across the highway bridge when it was blown

27:40

up to the people on a train that

27:42

got derailed to the people living

27:44

downstream of downstream damn use

27:46

your head man then

27:49

had asked why any what is even bothering

27:51

to make a serious about the notorious you know

27:53

bomber my bombing campaign

27:55

ended twenty two years ago my

27:57

trial was completed nineteen years ago

27:59

yet all through the intervening

28:02

years over and over and over

28:04

again ad nauseum the media

28:06

keep putting on these programs about me

28:09

why

28:20

the the you know bombers brother had taken

28:23

a toll on david kaczynski the

28:25

strain of the manhunt the pain

28:27

of ted learning david with the one who turned him in

28:30

all the unwanted notoriety once the news

28:32

became public

28:36

hannibal a bit like a victim

28:38

myself and you

28:40

know i wouldn't of course event to lend

28:42

about this and linda

28:44

, one time says david

28:46

don't understand their people who have

28:48

lost their dearest loved ones ones

28:51

people whose lives will be changed

28:53

be this isn't all

28:55

about you you're not the only victim

28:58

here

28:59

there in the months before ted's trial maybe

29:02

tried to do something about all the suffering

29:04

you know linden i talked about it again

29:07

and we decided that we we we would like to

29:09

write some letters apology as least

29:12

and so we did our best you

29:14

know apologizing you

29:16

, if we didn't wanna ask for anything in return

29:19

just say how much regret we had

29:21

a bouncer the pain they

29:23

had suffered in their losses and

29:27

i think we sent out about twelve or thirteen letters

29:29

and there were a couple of gracious responses

29:32

but most mostly there was silence

29:36

that's right i felt this almost

29:38

double sense of loss the loss of my brother

29:40

but also

29:42

the loss of connection to

29:45

you know humanity which my

29:47

brother had attacked

29:49

there was one victims address the david wasn't able

29:51

to find

29:52

gary right

29:54

the owner of the computer store in salt lake city

29:56

the guy who picked up a device next to a parked

29:58

car and was blue

29:59

across his parking lot

30:01

the twenty years having shards of would removed

30:04

from his body eventually

30:06

david managed to track down gary's phone number

30:09

i remember picking up the phone

30:11

and my finger was fish take him

30:13

as and dialing the numbers and dialing

30:15

gary's number

30:17

and can a planned what i plan

30:19

to say have it

30:21

all

30:22

ready and and then

30:25

the phone

30:27

starts ringing that the other and and i hear

30:29

a voice that said you've reached

30:32

the right house at the wrong time

30:36

so it wasn't a phone

30:38

message and i didn't ask and

30:40

, hadn't prepared how to leave a message i just

30:42

as united my name is david cousins

30:44

get i think you know who i am

30:46

i i wonder if we might talk

30:48

and are able try calling

30:51

you back in you few days

30:53

voice mails maybe the most

30:55

awkward technology that our technological

30:57

society ever created later

31:00

david called back and got gary on the phone he

31:03

basically was just saying that

31:05

he wanted to apologize on behalf of his

31:07

family and for what had happened

31:09

this is gary

31:11

and i can remember telling him

31:13

after i listen to it a to said

31:15

dave you know you can't

31:18

own as and you're gonna have to

31:20

let it go does not one

31:22

person doesn't represent a family

31:25

i just told him in i've been going through

31:27

this long time lot ,

31:30

than you and that the come to some conclusions

31:32

basically is what i was trying to impart known

31:34

him i mean it again and i've been going through this

31:36

for over nine years that that points

31:39

and had

31:41

, come some very interesting

31:44

conclusions for myself i mean what

31:46

if i never knew who this

31:48

was an that about your

31:50

six had the kind of decide that i

31:52

would forgive a ghost on

31:54

those sorts of things so of a lot of introspection

31:57

if he will but i

31:59

did tell

31:59

his demeanor i'm

32:03

how vulnerable dot cells

32:10

david gary have become close since that first phone

32:12

call for , they traveled

32:14

together did events fighting

32:16

against the death penalty talking about

32:18

recovering from violence and tragedy and

32:21

more than that they've just been friends in public

32:25

there's something almost a little hokey about the

32:27

idea of their bond like some

32:29

studio execs tacked onto the end

32:31

to leave viewers with leave sense of hope but

32:35

this is real life and , friendship

32:37

is profound david is

32:39

set on many occasions including to me

32:42

the gary has become has new brother forum

32:58

david relationship with his own brother of course

33:00

more or less ended in nineteen eighty nine when

33:03

david told ted he was moving in with linda

33:06

but even after ted was sentenced to life in prison

33:09

david kept writing the ending am holiday

33:11

greetings birthday cards and

33:13

the occasional book that

33:16

is never written back their

33:18

mother wanda kept trying to i

33:21

found several of her letters to ted in the archives

33:24

the short cheerful

33:26

almost like postcards you'd send your kid at camp

33:30

thanksgiving ninety ninety nine want

33:32

us sens ted a care package

33:34

your head

33:35

something to help in keeping you occupied over the

33:37

holidays head

33:39

annotates it for the researcher with

33:42

this note the stupid sent me crossword

33:45

puzzle books in the light which of course

33:47

i threw out a

33:49

few years later want us instead

33:51

a note saying she admires how is always

33:53

come to the defense of the powerless

33:55

children minorities migratory

33:58

workers

33:59

had take my mother

34:02

must be getting senile i have never

34:04

taken any interest in causes of this

34:06

kind there's more

34:08

most just a few sentences conveying

34:11

her love and support they'd

34:13

never responded to any of them the

34:16

last game and twenty eleven wander

34:18

was ninety four it wasn't a few

34:21

months before her death it's

34:23

, shortest of all dear

34:25

son as always

34:28

i love you mother

34:32

they did not add an annotation

34:52

okay could , tell us where we

34:54

are overlooking at a

34:56

few months ago i met up with david

34:58

oh we're in that texas hill country

35:00

is com or and of veranda

35:03

overlooked in canada

35:07

a ridge line of hills covered

35:09

with junipers son some

35:13

lovely rolling fields used to be

35:15

working , at one time now

35:17

mostly are divided into somewhat

35:20

smaller guest ranch's ranch's

35:22

a very quiet peaceful

35:25

lovely place with a today has

35:27

a just a blue

35:29

sky could imagine an

35:32

undeveloped to can a place that

35:34

i like to wander in

35:37

the place where we were wandering was a spiritual

35:39

center slash dude ranch the david

35:41

and linda were helping to build while

35:44

i was there linda was painting the walls

35:46

of the utilitarian would cabin to

35:48

transform it into a bright colorful

35:50

yoga studio and

35:52

david toward me around the property going

35:55

off the heard of free roaming horses pointing

35:57

to plans for new buildings he

36:00

was wearing a baseball cap with the words

36:03

go kind

36:04

when we were walking around and has

36:08

of went one thought that i i've often

36:10

had through this project is why

36:12

, had say about this way

36:14

to over developed but

36:18

year i mean but think we both

36:20

hands the kind

36:23

of real affinity for places

36:25

real wilderness this is not real wilderness

36:27

by any stretch human ,

36:30

have lived here for a long long time

36:33

time i've seen changes out in the desert

36:37

that have kenneth challenge

36:39

may because

36:42

development as it seems like such a unique

36:45

place wise by build more houses why

36:47

put in more roads

36:50

a few weeks before i visited david news

36:52

had broken the ted had been moved from the supermax

36:54

prison in colorado to a federal

36:57

medical facility in north carolina a

36:59

place for inmates suffering from serious illness

37:03

david called the bureau of prisons to find out more

37:05

but the bureau of prisons couldn't tell

37:07

me anything about his condition so i i still

37:10

do not know so , left

37:12

with a lot lot of

37:14

worry a lot unresolved

37:18

i'm in now to realize

37:30

i met someone

37:33

on reddit posted a letter posted had written

37:35

from the north carolina medical facility he

37:38

said he had terminal cancer they've

37:40

been given no more than two years to live i

37:43

was actually the one to tell david about the letter

37:46

he was upset but not surprised he'd

37:49

heard rumors ted had cancer there

37:51

was already reckoning with the fact that he be

37:54

the last member of their family alive

37:56

it always lived censure you know

37:58

sort of pure life

38:01

and took care of itself

38:03

never smoked never drank always

38:05

was physically says physically thought of you're

38:08

probably outlive me

38:11

no

38:12

they don't know

38:14

the game

38:16

for have written cheer him at the

38:19

, facility and button or north carolina

38:22

tried to be a loving as honest as

38:24

i knew how i don't know my for

38:26

many more chances i'll get and

38:28

whether he reads whether letters or not i

38:30

honestly don't even know

38:36

we were sitting in the new community he was helping

38:39

to build listening to the wind

38:41

russell through the live oak trees and

38:44

one thing that was really striking was

38:46

the david wasn't the you know bombers brother there

38:49

he was just david another aging

38:51

buddhist westerner lending a hand

38:53

were needed this

38:55

places another fresh start in a life that

38:57

was full of them and david got

39:00

that the just published a book

39:02

of poetry which he gave me it's

39:05

is first it's called

39:07

beginnings that

39:10

he couldn't totally let go of what he called

39:12

the you know bomber saga much

39:15

as he my want to it

39:17

seems like you the

39:19

one hand you don't want it in your life you

39:21

want to you , to move on

39:23

don't want to deal with this but then

39:25

you find yourself

39:28

going back invited back

39:30

actually wanting to pursue some of these things

39:32

so i'm curious if you thought about that

39:35

for i don't think don't think a choice about

39:37

ten

39:38

removing it from

39:41

my life it's certainly a part of my

39:43

life and a very important part of my life

39:46

i , i'm at a different stage in life

39:48

now which is more internal

39:52

meditative

39:56

you know the last words said never been

39:58

spoken fan

40:00

guess i'd ,

40:02

to own those words if

40:05

there are words for the end of it

40:23

you been listening to project you know bomb

40:36

project unit bomb is an apple original podcast

40:38

produced by pineapple street studios it's

40:41

produced by our senior producer jonathan

40:43

men have our and me america benson

40:46

our , are elliot adler and melissa

40:49

slaughter editing by joel

40:51

level and matty sprung kaiser are

40:53

fact checker is sarah every

40:56

the episode was mixed by davies sumner

40:58

jason richards elliot adler

41:00

and jonathan many of our studio

41:02

, by brian stand of her at the texas

41:05

monthly studio studio artwork

41:07

is by gm by music

41:10

by mark orton and john hancock additional

41:12

music by eric philips and jeff baxter

41:15

thank you to job bad omen for

41:17

research shop at the joseph a labadee

41:20

special collections library at the university

41:22

of michigan legal services

41:24

for pineapple street by bianca grimshaw

41:26

at granderson day rocher genoa

41:29

, and max lynskey or the executive

41:32

producers had pineapple street if

41:34

you live in the u s center having suicidal thoughts

41:37

called the national suicide prevention lifeline

41:40

at one eight hundred to seven three eight

41:42

to five five eight hundred

41:44

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41:47

for listening