0:04

remember the movie catch me you stars

0:08

leonardo dicaprio as a dashing

0:11

con artist named frank, abagnale

0:13

and tom hanks as the

0:15

fbi agent who relentlessly hunted

0:17

him down if

0:18

you recall,

0:20

leonardo dicaprio plays the teenager

0:23

who poses as a pilot, a doctor

0:25

or a all while playing a game

0:27

cat-and-mouse with the fbi

0:29

and the end

0:31

i hate to spoil it for you but dicaprio's

0:34

character gets caught and eventually

0:36

starts working for the f b i

0:38

what an unbelievable

0:40

story i mean literally unbelievable

0:44

the most

0:46

interesting part is that steven spielberg

0:49

claims it's based on a true story

0:54

fred a big meal the realized

0:56

man must be the greatest

0:58

con man who has ever lived i

1:03

tried to get frank average now on this page

1:05

as for five years now actually

1:08

since season one his people wrote

1:10

back to me and said dear mister layover

1:12

thank you for your email as noted on

1:14

our website mr abbott now doesn't

1:17

grant interviews dealing with his past

1:19

thank you for the invitation and we appreciate

1:22

your understanding

1:24

like

1:25

the guy is the best the best

1:27

he for the everyone's even

1:29

the f b i and almost

1:31

got away with it too why

1:33

wouldn't he want to tell his story i

1:36

, i get it maybe it's because i'm a teeny

1:38

tiny podcast a he stopped

1:41

talking about his past about life story

1:44

read not even to promote his book have

1:47

been just didn't match up

1:51

today almost fifty eight years after

1:53

his first caper average nails

1:55

still gets book to speak at conferences

1:57

and events the book him

1:59

story is so fascinating

2:02

yet these days frank epic

2:04

male barely mentioned says pass

2:07

that occasionally frank average now

2:10

indulges us with a rare

2:12

interview talking about his wild adventures

2:16

here's an idea and seventy seven clip from

2:18

embassies today show with tom brokaw

2:21

they became an airline pilot which is not

2:23

an easy thing to do because most people who become airline

2:25

pilots are required in some fashion to be able to fly

2:28

an airplane for to couldn't now as

2:30

airline pilot role pilot used for about

2:32

two years as years means of getting around the country

2:35

you know this village voice and tom brickhouse

2:37

heard asking the teenager

2:40

really pose as a pilot a doctor

2:42

or lawyer and actually get away with

2:45

us when you're in the cockpit that knows experts

2:47

i was recognize you as a phony have some time

2:50

now , i learned all of the terminology

2:53

and the more i flew on the find the more i learned

2:55

about the cockpit the functions of course

2:57

that's a great deal studying studying

2:59

pick up the terminology and technology and

3:01

so and behind you as a

3:03

sea of doctor frank as of now

3:06

you're a pediatrician for a time was

3:08

atlanta georgia where georgia kind

3:11

of accept georgia where that i moved into an apartment

3:13

complex and said that i was a doctor

3:15

and have come on top

3:17

what is your journalists a curiosity gonna kick

3:20

ass for your follow up questions are

3:23

you demanding proof and sacks

3:26

perhaps his journalistic instinct and

3:28

natural skepticism got blinded

3:30

by all the flashing lights of a good story

3:34

even sixty minutes aired frank

3:36

auerbach mail story without even questioning

3:39

you're one of the greatest comment of all time to

3:41

your the daddy of them all

3:43

what does it take to be a good time max

3:46

you know i have to smile because people will say

3:48

you're the greatest con man of the guy is confidence

3:50

man it i was a six year old

3:52

boy who ran away from home and ended up

3:54

on the streets in new york city and said okay

3:57

frank abigail told sixty minutes australia

3:59

the he was playing dress up he

4:01

managed to steal a lot of cash

4:03

along the way so

4:06

i started writing checks and i found it

4:08

very easy to go any cash checks tsunami

4:10

million dollars will return as million dollars

4:12

he claims he cast two and a half million dollars and

4:15

bad sex during the period from

4:17

nineteen sixty four to ninety sixty nine

4:19

two point five million dollars

4:22

that's worth almost twenty million

4:24

dollars today when you account for inflation

4:28

wow that is a lot of money but

4:30

sixty minutes didn't even challenge

4:33

him the a reputable news

4:35

source aired it it must be true

4:37

right the gun unbelievable

4:40

frank gaborik mail not only claims

4:43

he posed as a pan am pilot and

4:45

was hired as a doctor and he also took the bar

4:47

exam passes and became an

4:49

assistant state attorney he even

4:51

says he taught two semesters at brigham

4:54

young university and none of this

4:56

phase the media you told

4:58

sixty minutes my conscience started

5:00

by the makes you can't have a conscience and

5:02

be a comment as well known gambhir have a conscious

5:05

of be a comments i always believed

5:07

have i been a little older said started

5:09

doing that at twenty one to twenty six

5:11

i would have done have to things because i would

5:14

have rationalized and said you'll never get away

5:16

with that no one will believe v or a doctor

5:18

or your pilate are i would have probably

5:20

never done it but because i was a kid i

5:22

had this kid's imagination that i can

5:24

do anything i can get away with anything

5:27

our least i'm willing to try it and

5:29

had no fear consequences so in my case

5:31

it wasn't that i was brilliant or that i was

5:33

a genius i think it was more about the fact that

5:36

i was very young and eyes

5:38

i looked at a to the eyes of a kid than the eyes

5:40

of an adult it was when i receive years

5:42

for read as good as new safe

5:45

or perhaps he was a kids and active

5:48

imagination what have i told

5:50

you that ninety percent of frank

5:52

arab males claims are almost totally

5:55

made up yeah that's right the greatest

5:57

conmen and the world never actually

5:59

did

5:59

crimes he claims he did maybe

6:03

the greatest hoax was us

6:05

believing his story was even true in the

6:07

first place

6:08

you are for the i was fooled

6:11

sixty minutes was fooled tom

6:13

brokaw was fooled so as phil

6:15

donahue and pbs everyone

6:18

believe frank abigail story have

6:20

because we're gullible but because we wanted

6:23

it to be real i mean is such

6:25

a fantastic story have

6:27

story did not be true and who make the

6:29

stuff the think

6:31

about it for a second just a second she

6:34

passed the bar exam

6:36

without going to law school he

6:38

worked as a doctor he

6:41

flew the world that has

6:43

up pilots karma

6:45

how can merely buddy believe

6:48

this stuff that didn't

6:50

matter

6:55

steven spielberg this generation's

6:57

greatest director turned frank

6:59

dabic males life into the military

7:02

i and for every crystallize

7:04

the con mans mythology abbott

7:07

meals love story was even turned

7:09

into a fricking broadway musical

7:22

i'm going to disprove frank epic males

7:24

claims one by one now

7:27

with opinions but with hard facts

7:29

and i have the court imprisoned reference to prove

7:31

to for the last few weeks

7:34

i've been combing through police department records military

7:36

service records penitentiary files

7:38

trying to catch a con man in a lot

7:41

and i'm going to try to find friend

7:43

gaborik mailed to finally asked him in person

7:45

the hard questions no one else has

7:48

i'm hobby or labor and this is protect

7:51

the stories about real people

7:53

pretending to be someone else

8:35

you know the only way in the podcast

8:37

like this could continue his through

8:39

sponsors support and today sponsors

8:41

the jordan harbinger shop jordan harbinger

8:44

is another in the podcast or

8:46

and his show is fantastically

8:49

such a great interview or if

8:51

you haven't listened to it check it out you

8:53

can find a jordan harbinger show where

8:55

ever you get your podcast

8:58

he is the real deal the

9:00

most most popular episodes arm

9:03

you know jordan used to live in the ukraine and summers

9:05

most popular episodes are about about

9:07

vladimir putin and disinformation

9:10

he talks about what it's like to stand up the prudence

9:13

who's winning the cyber weapons farm race

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deep fakes in the coming and for apocalypse

9:18

he has guess talking about surviving in a world

9:20

of fake news and and what it's like

9:22

to fight in the ukraine you

9:25

can find a jordan harbinger show where

9:27

ever you get your podcasts

9:50

and welcome to to tell it shows

9:52

this is a club or the nineteen seventy seven episode

9:54

as to tell the truth i was less

9:57

needed to be an imposter

10:06

the number one what is your name please

10:09

my name is frank william as now

10:11

number two

10:14

well known and william added now

10:17

number three my name is frank

10:19

way i'm having mail

10:21

i break william abbott mail

10:23

am known as the world's greatest imposter

10:26

and no wonder in the course

10:28

of mine nefarious career i've

10:31

found myself off as a doctor

10:33

lawyer college instructor

10:35

stockbroker and airline

10:38

pilot

10:39

the because you've ever watched to tell the truth

10:41

the game is simple there are three

10:43

contestants describing their life story

10:46

but only one of them really

10:48

telling the truth five year old faithful viewer

10:50

of his show you know is this game is played

10:52

with one real person almost always

10:55

sell it shows rice and and to impossible

10:57

can lie right through their teeth okay

11:00

well our first guess he's made

11:02

he's made out of being the most outrageous

11:04

imposters and we've ever come across

11:06

on is shown you go see what i'm real frank

11:08

have a meal is contestant number

11:11

two my name is frank

11:13

we're having now the

11:15

tell the truth is the tv show

11:17

thing gave birth to the frank are

11:19

big now legends hard to this ninety

11:22

seventy seven episodes and cabbage now

11:24

was just a small time swindler known for

11:26

cash and bad checks ripping off ordinary

11:28

people and small businesses nineteen

11:31

seventy seven there was no books there was

11:33

no movie know broadway play it

11:35

was just frank the crook

11:38

now in front of the world stage

11:40

americans from coast to coast are watching

11:43

to tell the truth and witnessing a

11:45

big meal lay the groundwork for the

11:47

longest con of them are

11:49

the kind that has for those for the last

11:51

forty five years

11:52

that you did you ever get anybody medical advice

11:55

ah yes i worked there

11:57

for a year as chief resident of a hospital

11:59

the damage which

12:02

has

12:02

cobb county general

12:04

hospital marietta georgia

12:06

did anybody get

12:07

when you're right of would is it's i have

12:11

no problems that was that real frank abigail

12:14

answering questions about his didn't working

12:16

as working as pediatrician working

12:19

the overnight the say

12:21

allah will the

12:23

real friend william average

12:25

male please same outside z

12:28

both not a single panel has picked

12:30

the real friend cabbage mail from the lineup

12:36

i mean ,

12:39

the than the lawyers and the ban goes what

12:41

jazz it weird drive after

12:43

the studio lights turned off at thirty rock

12:46

that's when frank abc now begun to work

12:48

before to tell the truth no one had ever heard of this

12:50

guy there were no newspaper articles

12:52

corroborating has done

12:54

though he did the next best

12:56

thing and drafted up a press kit documenting

12:59

all his adventures

13:02

you know several people have tried to challenge frank

13:05

adult male throughout his life but the

13:07

one man in particular had the courage

13:09

to put it all together and his

13:11

name is alan mob allen is one of the

13:13

researchers who have called abbott males

13:15

claims into question actually

13:18

there is no question allen logan

13:21

as an earth cold hard facts

13:23

that are indisputable i

13:25

, to thank allen logan for helping me with

13:27

a series allen wrote an expo

13:29

say on frank cabbage mouth titled

13:32

the greatest hoax on earth catching

13:34

truth why you can with

13:36

the help of allen logan and my fact

13:38

checker kick gallagher i've been able

13:40

to request government documents corroborating

13:43

allen's research and disapproving almost

13:45

all of abbott bills while til here

13:50

in black and white folks frank

13:52

gaborik now so this a bag of goods

13:56

there's no way i could tell the story

13:58

and just one episode

13:59

raptors more by part series you will

14:02

hear from real people who had the misfortune

14:04

of having frank yeah big now in their lives

14:06

the troopers he really is

14:09

a con men just not the one

14:11

you think years that

14:13

of this robin hood figure feeling

14:15

from big corporations see more

14:17

of a huckster who is accused of stealing from families

14:20

and small businesses who never had much

14:22

in the first place you're going a

14:24

year from some of these folks of and i'm

14:26

personally gonna have found france

14:28

average that

14:29

he didn't want to come talk to me while

14:32

i'm gonna go talk to him or

14:34

real life touch me we can if he will

14:37

except this time someone is

14:39

really chasing him

14:41

that someone is make them

14:43

, cards her purse purse

14:46

now see like you get

14:48

on

14:50

i got him to heaven

14:52

, avenue doing i i guess cover

14:54

live events you don't want

14:56

to miss the last episode episode

14:59

six years regrettable that the that

15:02

pretended to be piloted doctor

15:04

professor bowery able to do that

15:06

as you are sitting in prison the whole time

15:10

the when we come back old we're going to hear more

15:12

of frank abigail stories from

15:14

their horses

15:18

hundreds of millions of dollars

15:21

god and some of the richest people on the planet

15:23

giant companies bags all kind

15:26

of their fortune by one man a

15:28

man that many of their victims call

15:30

a genius good their sickly

15:33

from wondering and pineapple street studios

15:35

comes a new true crime podcast persona

15:38

the first deception the unbelievable

15:40

story of one of the greatest criminal masterminds

15:42

the twenty first century for more than ten

15:45

years she claims tapped into his

15:47

victims deepest fears appeal to their

15:49

sizable egos and ultimately

15:51

pioneered a scam the took over

15:53

the world but as stories more than just details

15:56

criminal genius it's a story about

15:58

the moment we're living in now the gold in the age

16:00

of scammers and the power of

16:02

seduction follow persona the french deception

16:05

wherever you get your podcasts or

16:07

you can listen early on the amazon music

16:09

or early and ad free by

16:11

subscribing to wonder he plus an apple

16:13

podcasts or the wonder he

16:17

in order to truly appreciate how big

16:19

of a hoax this truly is you first

16:22

have to listen to frank average nails most blatant

16:24

stories for yourself shortly

16:26

after his appearance on to tell her the

16:29

me i was booked and the tonight show

16:31

with john sorry

16:34

i've not met my next guess i'm looking

16:36

forward to talking with him his name is frank

16:38

abba , male male

16:41

he had a short but illustrious career

16:43

as a common man some of the things

16:45

the did he impersonator the copilot

16:47

the major airline a sacred

16:49

as a lawyer on the state attorney general staff

16:53

fast , a pediatrician in georgia

16:55

hospital hospital a phony college

16:57

phony and case seventeen

17:00

thousand bad sex amounting to two and a half

17:02

million dollars would you open play

17:04

pranks abigail millions

17:06

of viewers were mesmerized by the

17:08

comments margins and story right

17:13

as we have just met assure me that

17:15

you are not passing is somebody the night as

17:17

a frank abigail and are really a french

17:20

word somewhere word that your are of

17:22

what yard and armies now you

17:24

did all these things out of for what reason

17:27

basically i asked the age of sixteen

17:30

coming from low town in upstate new york

17:32

my parents separated was sixteen

17:34

and kind , most me or

17:37

bother me and i can get my parents back together

17:39

downside ran away from home the

17:42

found myself in new york city without a job

17:44

with no money

17:45

greg abbott mail explained to carson

17:47

that he couldn't survive as a sixteen

17:49

year old making only a few bucks here and there

17:52

so he decided to lie about his age

17:54

the always looked a little older son started saying

17:57

i was twenty six years old people started

17:59

paying me a little more money but

18:01

not enough to support myself so

18:03

i am scott into the habit of storing

18:06

of storing a personal checks without having

18:08

any money in the bank abigail says that he

18:10

sounded easier to cast bad checks as

18:12

a twenty six year old that wasn't

18:14

enough he needed more credibility

18:17

i happened to be walking on forty second street my

18:19

saw this airline crew come out of a hotel

18:22

and i thought that would be the perfect front for

18:24

me to be able to travel around the country

18:26

posing as pilots not only could

18:28

i fly for free but i would also

18:30

be able to stay at hotels for free because

18:32

they are an everyday airlines and everything

18:34

in order to looked like a pilot you

18:36

need to dress like a pilot

18:39

how in the world did frank abigail get

18:41

access to a pilot's uniform

18:43

and so i called an american airlines got

18:45

their switchboard ask for their purchasing from

18:48

i guess this is my first time and when these

18:50

purchasing officer came on i told him that i was

18:52

a pilot faced in l a was here in new

18:54

york on a layover someone had stolen

18:56

my uniform where can i get a replacement

18:59

and he sent me down to the uniform company called

19:02

up ahead told them i was coming they

19:04

, me out out he was done

19:06

via the uniform manufacture

19:08

said i said how much is it he said was two hundred

19:10

and eighty nine dollars or so i'll i'll write you a check

19:13

and says no i can't take attack

19:15

i said well i'll tell you and cash is and

19:17

i can't say cast so

19:20

i said oh he said i have to build this

19:22

back to your payroll can be deducted

19:24

from can uniform allow for said oh that's even better

19:26

homes courses plus

19:30

one thing is to dress like a pilot

19:32

the don't pilots need some sort of

19:34

identification in order to get

19:36

on a slight don't worry

19:38

he figured that one out have

19:40

it mailed to johnny carson the he commissioned a creation

19:42

of a generic id card this

19:45

id card was missing one critical

19:48

piece of information the

19:50

airline logo

19:51

though i walk by an airplane hobby shop

19:53

and i walked in a bar little model of a pan am

19:55

playing and i took the details

19:58

our the boston so snowboarder put the logo

20:00

that would went on the tail up on the

20:02

check up on the id card and in the words

20:05

and am what would a went on the wings cross

20:07

the i declined the clear decaf on

20:09

the plastic and integrate far everybody

20:17

likes a good scam don't say i'm a cigarette as

20:20

he travels i'm eighty two countries as least

20:22

some three million miles always road in

20:24

the cockpit in the jump seat as seat non

20:26

revenue pilot always wrote on every

20:28

one but pan am so that no one would ask

20:30

me where are you based in so for any

20:32

of the pilot say hey what you think of the new law ram

20:35

system or the dia me or me or i

20:37

first started i was in laguardia airport

20:39

sitting in a restaurant i'd only has a uniform a

20:41

couple of days and a t w a pilot walked

20:43

in and said i don't settle

20:45

oh and so we're kind of equipment are you on and

20:48

i thought while equipment i didn't know what

20:50

to say so i said general electric co

20:54

, he walked out so i quickly found out

20:56

what equipment what type of aircraft

20:59

type

21:03

the regular lying around or sure something

21:08

out , ideal military going to make make

21:10

why do i know you might assume this

21:12

might assume know if you really look like you belong

21:14

somewhere is true as the

21:17

you have a feeling of authority

21:19

people will almost accepted any place if you

21:22

do it directly ever after

21:24

carson was also curious by his other professions

21:27

three once you pass yourself as a as a pediatrician

21:29

self as com tricky because i'm

21:32

a less technical wonder why

21:34

has the pediatrician probably are if

21:36

was really ended up being the most easier with

21:38

should have been the most difficult i supervised seven

21:40

interns on the midnight a sip of

21:42

you had any medical training no medical

21:44

training and i don't like the sight

21:47

of blood and when i was when

21:49

i would be called to the emergency room i'd

21:51

walk in there be two or three interns there and interns recall

21:53

down and i'd walk in and answer what's the problem

21:56

says they docked we have severe and cardio here

21:58

with they had enough had guy broke his

21:59

they had a heart attack so

22:02

, would say without dakota where do you think will

22:04

doctor i would like to minister thirties he sees

22:06

this doctor john i concur jane

22:09

i concur gentlemen have added and

22:11

out i was go go

22:14

became one of the most respected residents

22:16

because i was only one that ever allow them to do

22:18

anything do we're

22:24

talking with franca abigail i believe

22:26

ah believe

22:28

find is absolutely mind boggling

22:31

as he says on the current the also thinks it is a lawyer

22:34

on a state attorney general staff can you talk

22:36

about that and i went down and presented

22:39

some financial to take the bar in louisiana

22:42

and i , for it for about

22:44

three or four months took it three times the third

22:46

time i've tested legally past

22:48

it it went on work

22:51

as that a a corporate lawyer on the attorney

22:53

general attorney and

22:55

worked there for almost there year when

22:57

a number of cases lot of course

23:03

about five years ago abigail was

23:05

against under jordan harbinger of show

23:08

jordan is a friend of this podcast and

23:10

he's awesome sponsor i

23:12

called him to talk about the interview with frank

23:14

cabin

23:17

you interviewed frank auerbach now

23:19

and that was your first episode

23:22

how did you land that interview

23:24

so i've been trying to get frank abigail

23:27

for a long time and i

23:30

was hidden dead ends man you know and i thought

23:32

for a guy who you'd

23:34

think would be more about self promotion given that

23:36

he's got a podcast and a book guineas on

23:39

guineas speaking tour he was sort of dodging

23:41

the media so media tried and tried and tried

23:43

and tried and tried can't remember exactly

23:45

who had was that introduced as and if

23:47

if somebody hears about you from three four five

23:49

people they are gonna eventually

23:53

right

23:54

that i had worked really hard to get that introduction

23:56

and of course the delicious irony

23:58

is

23:59

it's so hard to get this guy on because i thought

24:02

he was the best guy he around

24:04

in terms of catching con artists and in dot

24:06

in dot

24:07

now i can't read his and

24:09

so surprised the funny for circles you

24:12

feel that way though the feeling mom

24:15

only a little we all got

24:17

conned by for i gabbing nail because

24:20

we all went to see the movie we all thought it was

24:22

amazing and abigail

24:24

story is amazing if

24:26

only it were true the wouldn't

24:29

harbinger was kind enough to let me play some

24:31

of the interview from his show this is

24:33

all happening when you're still a teenager the iowa

24:35

you know everything happened between sixteen

24:37

and twenty one and people say you know you a

24:40

brilliant i wasn't very and i was just

24:42

a kid but being an adolescent i had

24:44

no fear of being caught i had no

24:46

fear of consequences and

24:48

i would have rationalized in said that will

24:50

work so in so in into banks

24:53

cashing checks but it was very difficult

24:55

to convince in the cash a check for me than

24:57

i was walking down the street and i saw this airline

25:00

crew and i thought to myself boys

25:02

i had this uniform and then i walked

25:04

in the bank is this pilot you're more

25:06

likely to cast a check for me and

25:09

it was like night and day i mean i'd the

25:11

uniform was so powerful that's all they

25:13

saw the checked with stupid but

25:15

the they saw the uniform and i was as

25:17

pilot and they this i quickly

25:19

learned very fast that that

25:22

was a way to be able to do that i was just

25:24

a mechanism but if i had really thought

25:26

it out if i were to happen i didn't

25:29

funny enough this part of the story is kinda

25:31

sorta true frank abigail did

25:33

pose as a pilot to cast phony chest

25:35

that really did happen the real

25:37

story is not quite as exciting

25:40

will get into the details of this later on in the series

25:43

the important thing to remember is set with any

25:45

good line there's always a grain

25:47

of truth frank abigail story

25:49

is not a hundred percent complete bullshit

25:52

said sis ninety five percent bullshit

25:55

so he really was posing as a pilot

25:57

cashing checks but the book and

25:59

movie or called catch me if you can and

26:02

as it turns out nobody was really

26:04

hunting him down one of our big

26:06

meals victim said and i'm paraphrasing

26:08

here gaborik know wasn't on

26:10

the f b i most wanted list in fact

26:13

that they had an f b i lose want

26:15

of this he would be number one there's

26:17

no garbage now again rehashing his story

26:19

to jordan harbinger when it

26:21

started out more as survival how my

26:23

gonna survive then it became people

26:26

are chasing me and how much going to stay ahead of the

26:28

people chasing me and then towards

26:30

the end of it it started to become more

26:32

of a game and tell side you

26:34

know i eventually stop knowing that they would

26:36

eventually catch up with me i don't

26:38

look at a pilots who standing in an airport

26:41

lobbying doubts that could be a said pilots

26:43

the chances are slim but he could be as a pilot

26:45

i would never think that's because

26:47

i'm not trying to think that there's a fake

26:50

pilot walking through the airports trying

26:52

to scam flights are get through security it

26:54

doesn't make any sense but even today

26:56

i do that i look at the buttons on the uniform

26:59

to make sure the buttons i the actual real

27:01

buttons i look at the wings a person

27:03

has and jordan harbinger is

27:05

right humans are hardwired

27:08

to believe most of us are trusting

27:10

people we don't want to question everything

27:12

all the time and why should

27:14

we had tested the dentist drilling

27:17

inside my mouth actually has

27:19

a degree in training i just heard the architects

27:21

who design my house knew what he said they were

27:23

doing this is not enough

27:25

time in the day to fact check everyone

27:27

around us and con artist

27:29

like frank auerbach no know this go

27:33

back to my conversation with jordan harbinger but

27:35

at the end of the day

27:37

i don't have to be like oh no i've got to remove

27:39

episode one of the jordan harbinger show because

27:42

it's still a great story the elements

27:44

of it may be true it's still based on a movie

27:46

now the movies not based on the story this

27:49

this interview is now based on a movie that's the only

27:51

thing that shifted right now i'm having a guy

27:53

tell me the plot of a movie debtors

27:55

fiction as opposed to a movie being a non

27:57

fictional account of something that

27:59

happened in his your life and it

28:01

was years old by the time that came out

28:03

the i don't feel guilty i don't think about

28:05

it i don't think you cisco i don't think you should

28:08

feel guilty because it's not just jordan

28:10

harbinger the got for the second set of we all

28:12

got slope and run who are used

28:15

to question all these other

28:17

media outlets said have kind of

28:19

confirmed the stores you got not

28:21

only the media you got steven spielberg's

28:24

and before that he had johnny carson

28:27

i mean this mean this story has

28:29

been kind of codified in solidified

28:31

for decades and and

28:33

they're concerned point where you know

28:36

we just kind of except that i mean it's not

28:39

not saying that you

28:41

know with a little digging we could have all

28:43

figured out of the same that

28:45

it's just been hardened

28:48

his life has become true for

28:50

it's exactly and you call them out

28:52

at one point of frank added now yeah

28:55

i don't feel like you were decide something

28:57

everything he told the is true like or something

28:59

you call them unlikable cases that out

29:01

there was one saying that i thought didn't

29:04

make a ton of sense

29:06

here's a clip from the jordan harbinger and

29:08

, must the had some close calls with the cards

29:11

with the f b i i know in the movie

29:13

there's one that's i assume an apocryphal

29:15

see where tom hanks walks into the

29:17

hotel room and you pretend that you're the secret

29:19

service injured they're already relax

29:22

the late my name's

29:24

alan barry allen united states secret service

29:27

your boy just tried to jump out the window my

29:29

partner has him in custody or nobody drawn i

29:31

assume that didn't happen but there has to be

29:33

some close calls know and actually

29:35

what a lot of people don't know is that actually

29:38

happened i thought for sure that

29:40

that's fake i mean you're in this hotel room

29:42

with fake jackson up all paraphernalia in

29:45

as yeah room service buffet or wherever

29:47

and then

29:48

if f b i basically kicks

29:50

in the door almost and you're in there he's got

29:52

had to the air and hold on your late

29:55

the guy you least one and out the window

29:58

so what steven spielberg so

29:59

is that why unscripted he had actually

30:02

scripted that seems but

30:04

on the set during entire making the film

30:06

was joe say who was the f b i

30:08

agent betrayed by a bad call

30:10

hand write a call hundred character betrayed by

30:13

tom hanks and basically

30:15

he's asked him to read from his node

30:17

so he read that i walked in the room

30:19

in my gun drawn i heard someone

30:22

was in the restroom i told

30:24

him the come out

30:25

it and identified himself as a secret

30:27

service agents as out he's

30:30

saving spielberg said i love his

30:32

notes better than i loved my script

30:35

so i basically just followed his notes

30:37

and that actually did take place just as

30:39

the dead the time

30:41

jordan harbinger bought into the premise

30:43

of friend cabbage now story was real even

30:46

under that assumption something about this

30:48

abigail guides assumes that well with

30:50

him here's my interview with jordan again

30:52

in either no know that actually

30:55

happened and then he told me essentially the

30:57

same story that didn't make

30:59

any sense to me but i let it go

31:02

that's why i remember it because i remember thinking

31:04

that is for sure something

31:07

that only ended up in the movie so when he told me it was actually

31:09

true

31:10

i just really didn't believe

31:12

that i was exactly i actually was it i

31:15

knew out because that part doesn't make

31:17

sense if you think it just doesn't make

31:19

sense when you think about more and and

31:21

he says said they actually had

31:23

to dumb down his story for the movie

31:26

because he was too good

31:29

to be toured be toured believable

31:31

recently as i usually see other way around

31:33

like the arrow dramatize are

31:35

facts but that is tells you how colorful

31:38

the story and how how it evolves

31:40

the most part frank epic now is pretty

31:42

consistently source these

31:44

told them so many times it is almost sounds

31:46

rehearsed the on occasion he

31:48

can't keep his facts straight here's

31:51

one example in the movie catch me we can

31:53

and on the jordan harbinger sound signed

31:55

claims that he for the f b i when they

31:57

busted into his hotel room

31:59

the most

31:59

recent version of the story instead of

32:02

running away friend told the f b i the he

32:04

worked as a secret service agents and the the

32:06

suspect was sitting in a police car but

32:08

in nineteen eighty two his story was

32:10

says a little different to listen

32:13

they later phone call from the sheriff's

32:15

office in mclean virginia we have

32:17

added now

32:25

the program and one lead up to a swimming pool

32:27

area fellow into the lobby

32:33

then we couldn't the window and watched

32:35

i always did and sure enough

32:38

i saw the sheriff's deputies and i knew

32:40

i had to get out of them i needed only

32:42

one way to do then i put

32:44

on a three piece great pinstripe suit

32:46

the moon pie left all my belongings

32:49

ground

32:50

the light on waited about three

32:52

minutes and open the back door and stepped up

32:54

slammed the door casual is like a be are

32:57

you please like that

32:58

right gentlemen barbados f b i got

33:01

adding areas around front think ,

33:03

around front they went went

33:05

our you heard him

33:08

heard didn't pose a secret service agent

33:10

she was bob status with the f b

33:12

i

33:13

or maybe that's a little slip up maybe not

33:16

almost rich details for and

33:18

dialogue from the sheriff's office i'll

33:20

tell you what he is a fantastic

33:23

story teller abigail

33:25

described himself as a master

33:27

for juror he claims he was convicted

33:29

of writing two point five million dollars worth of bad

33:31

checks but a lot about sex frank

33:35

abigail did cause a lot of bad checks but

33:37

in reality it was mostly for small

33:39

amounts of money not to boy five million

33:41

dollars this is another club

33:43

from the jordan harbinger say

33:46

the coffin a book that i just love and i think it's

33:48

a sheriff deputies it says this this is frank

33:50

abigail could write a check on a piece

33:52

of toilet paper drawn on the confederate states

33:54

treasury sign at you are hooked

33:57

and tasha that any bank in town and using

33:59

a hong kong driver's license for identification

34:02

they'll i could i could and i believed

34:04

i could and i probably would have mean

34:07

if you looked at the jackie to said you gotta

34:09

be kidding this is jumps but

34:11

they only saw that unify they

34:13

paid no attention says attack they

34:16

just saw the pilot uniform and

34:18

that's all they cared about and that that

34:20

was it he told sword and harbinger the he

34:22

mastered the art of floating insect since

34:25

you explain a little bit about what the flow is

34:27

you time i think you invented this right

34:29

you are using the routing numbers and

34:31

the bank employees lack of knowledge to get like

34:33

five or seven extra days a time right

34:36

no and at the bank knew what these magnetic

34:38

numbers are maker numbers are on the bottom of

34:40

the checks i went to the library to study

34:42

it now realize that they were basically like

34:45

a zip codes south's if

34:47

i would afford to check say off a new york

34:49

bank which would be zero to

34:51

one second federal reserve first branch

34:53

manhattan and i was to take

34:56

that zero in change it to a one

34:58

then when i can't to check in new york it

35:00

would go to the twelfth federal reserve san francisco

35:03

to it's first branch honolulu

35:05

hawaii and by the time that check

35:08

out all away their and then that bank and

35:10

a wise said at this is affords check

35:12

stamps it and returned at all way back to

35:15

new york you added to three weeks of

35:17

course you can get away with any of this today our

35:21

comes razor and the simplest explanation

35:24

is most likely what actually happened

35:27

was more believable more believable boy runs

35:29

away from home posing as a pilot a

35:31

doctor lawyer or just

35:34

a man who's a compulsive liar

35:36

who would rather i brad saxon actually earn

35:40

i know this news must be

35:42

heartbreaking especially if you believe historic

35:44

like either

35:45

when alan logan first approached me

35:47

about the story actually dismissed it

35:49

because i didn't want to believe that was true that's

35:53

the old saying it's easier to for

35:55

people tend to convince him to date

35:57

and for for

36:00

example the sly the frank auerbach mail told

36:03

during an ai be conference and nineteen

36:05

eighty two

36:06

the new paper called me the great unpopular

36:09

a name that lasted with me for quite a while

36:11

the new york times in a period of five

36:13

years rather syndicated column about

36:15

me which city are time prefer to

36:17

me as the skyway man

36:19

wow the new york times wrote

36:22

a syndicated column about him syndication

36:25

by definition means that it was published

36:27

in multiple places at once and for five

36:29

years those be pretty

36:31

easy to factor on

36:34

lucky for me i happen to have a new

36:36

york times account they're

36:38

archives go all the way back to eighteen

36:40

fifty one as

36:43

you may have guessed i cannot find

36:45

a single article about frank avid now

36:47

prior to the release of his so called

36:49

autobiography titled catch me

36:51

if you can why

36:53

lie about something you could easily

36:55

batch and

36:58

why are we talking about this has been con

37:00

man from the sixties and seventies what

37:02

because we're now living in a post

37:05

truth era where a politician

37:07

tim repeat a blatant lie a lie

37:09

that anyone can quickly fact checks

37:12

and people still believe it frank

37:15

avid know is a modern day pioneer

37:18

of the big lie and now politicians

37:20

all across america we'll be like

37:22

a weapon and the worst

37:25

part is most people don't care

37:27

about the truth we only want to hear

37:29

what we want to hear

37:35

how long does it take to tackle a home

37:37

projects with

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angela merkel crossfit i feel less

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before this ad is over just tell

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us what you need indoor outdoor

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the rest sending is hop pro to

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37:51

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in our click the mouse plus

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in two years free to use sobering

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as your next and said

37:58

and we're paying apart

37:59

download the app for go to anti

38:02

death

38:02

that a n g i doubt

38:04

some to get started

38:09

this is all a lie why

38:11

hasn't anyone called him out sooner

38:14

for the truth is throughout his life several

38:16

people and journalists have tried to expose

38:18

the truth but he's time he slithers

38:21

away for the last forty years

38:23

frank abigail spencer conferences

38:25

all over the world at one point his schedule

38:27

was put back to back with

38:29

more than two hundred speaking engagements speaking year

38:32

but the more people call him out on his lies

38:34

the less and less you search about it these

38:39

days he no longer test by his past

38:41

crimes he said he likes his company's

38:43

on how to protect themselves from financial on

38:45

cyber criminals he claims

38:48

that he's been working with the f b i since he was released

38:50

from prison he's such a brilliant criminal

38:52

that the f b i couldn't resist to hire him

38:55

that his according to frank abigail

38:57

lore here lore here telling an

38:59

audience i google about his professional

39:01

relationship with the fbi

39:04

this year i'm celebrating forty one years

39:06

at the f b i i've been at the bureau

39:08

from more than four decades i

39:10

work out of washington d c actually

39:12

make my home in charleston south carolina

39:15

survey monday i fly up to washington

39:17

about an hour flight my go home on thursday

39:19

evening and here's friend cabbage now

39:22

making a fool out of the president of oklahoma

39:24

state university

39:26

bi curious curiosity was what

39:29

was it that the f b i saw i knew

39:31

that they thought they could use because

39:33

really you just really good at com

39:35

and be brian map so they are so they first

39:37

five years first just did undercover work

39:40

and was the how assets as the bureau saw

39:42

me was the thank had literally say to me

39:45

to need you in the next two weeks to take

39:47

up this information you're a lieutenant

39:49

a the army you been in the army for this many

39:51

years your expertise this this particular

39:53

missile and expertise needed to go to the base

39:56

and i need you to find out this information

39:58

they knew that they could prove it in any position

40:01

that i could fake long enough

40:03

and that position to find out whatever they wanted

40:05

me to find out in i'm in a perverse got a boy

40:07

or a souvenir same thing everyone admiration

40:10

for what's your with a relative because

40:12

they that tom hanks played the at the eyes

40:15

it was so and i were friends for thirty years

40:17

as wonderful man and now what he was

40:19

abrupt purported to for the first ten years

40:21

to years retired

40:27

oh as be idea is probably

40:29

the biggest mystery of all for me

40:31

you would think that frank gaborik

40:33

now was going around telling people he worked for the

40:36

f b i and i weren't true that

40:38

they would shut him down quick i've

40:40

, my contacts who used to work at f b i

40:42

to deceive they know anything about as an

40:45

all they've heard it said abigail

40:47

has occasionally spoken to the f b

40:49

i academy so i sent

40:51

the f b i public relations officer list

40:53

of specific questions about abbott now

40:55

and his rod the f b i and

40:57

i'm waiting to hear back but

41:00

later on as a series were going to drill

41:02

down into some of these claims you're

41:04

gonna hear about several f b i agents

41:06

who disputes and of average now stories

41:10

in the next few episodes i'm going to lay

41:12

down to timelines for you the

41:15

first is the timeline frank average

41:17

male wants you to believe the one

41:19

where he dashed around the world surrounded by beautiful

41:21

flight attendants posing as an airline pilot

41:24

where he worked as a doctor or lawyer university

41:26

professor and then the second time

41:28

line i will present to you is what

41:30

actually happens it

41:32

turns out the frank abigail was sitting in prison

41:35

almost the entire time he was

41:37

supposedly running some the fps and

41:40

when when in in prison he was too

41:42

busy ripping off ordinary people

41:44

like you and me these are the

41:46

fantastic tales frank abigail

41:48

doesn't want you to know about the

41:51

real story is even more fascinating

41:53

linda horse said we were led to believe

41:56

and in the end his real life

41:58

story reveals

41:59

sad little man who has

42:02

lived his entire life running

42:04

mostly from himself

42:07

next time

42:22

these episode was written by me have your liver

42:24

and fact checked by cake gallagher and

42:27

i owe it to allen logan for

42:29

his incredible research

42:31

i don't know how

42:33

he on earth all these documents but

42:36

i was able with the help of kate's

42:38

to go and retrace his steps

42:40

and file for the same documents

42:42

said he has on frank abigail and

42:45

your about a year and the rest of the series

42:47

is going to blow your mind mean we've

42:49

been able to pretty much reconstruct

42:52

frank average nails timeline year

42:54

by year almost month by month

43:00

a before we go i want to end the

43:02

episode with a special treat

43:04

you heard jordan harbinger earlier

43:06

in the show and and after i interviewed

43:09

him interviewed can have started talking about his

43:11

so it's pretty incredible he told me stories

43:14

about some his gas but also

43:16

about how he was once kidnapped okay

43:19

now here's my interview with jordan harbinger

43:25

the have interviewed a lot of

43:27

fascinating people but then i

43:29

just recently discovered that you were

43:31

kidnapped and serbia two thousand and

43:33

four and right i was blown away i had

43:35

no idea comes yeah some of this

43:37

is this is more like it a rest but

43:40

it was a b s arrest

43:41

the coach node star i

43:43

was working over there i had it at

43:45

a fellowship from the government to live

43:48

in serbia the us government so that automatically

43:50

raised a bunch of flags i was the only person there

43:52

with this fellowship lie was the first person

43:54

in the only person in the country in there was nobody managing

43:57

it there were some office with of of

43:59

a one who did a few other things serbia

44:01

already was convinced that i was a spy

44:04

for various reasons and i had run ins

44:06

with the police because of visa issues and all

44:08

these other things and i

44:10

went to a concert and there were

44:12

some state security agents

44:15

who are high out of their minds

44:17

driving around harassing people and

44:19

they came to harass my friends and friends and

44:21

some women that we were with and they were starting

44:23

to save at that they didn't know didn't spoke serbian they

44:25

were starting to say things like

44:28

oh look at this girl you know what we should take

44:30

her in the bushes and it was is clearly a

44:32

sexual assault situation that was about to happen

44:35

so i took off running thinking

44:37

they're going to chase me and me and can get away

44:40

so

44:41

i took off they came after me and

44:44

they threaten me with a bunch of violence you know

44:46

they've the word super drugged up and

44:49

i ended up going to a safe

44:52

house with them where they interrogated

44:55

informants are took informants

44:57

it was also a bar the bartender told

45:00

me in english not to worry because these guys were idiots

45:02

actually and which which was funny

45:05

like you know you're still worried because they were armed idiots

45:08

and they were they

45:10

were beaten up my friend after a while and

45:12

in i used

45:14

, lot of reporter generating techniques

45:16

to try and calm them down i tried to keep

45:18

myself com it it

45:21

successful a doing so and eventually

45:23

generated an opportunity to escape

45:26

and it was really scary and it was

45:28

even scarier in hindsight

45:31

the news people had almost certainly killed people

45:33

before the scary thing

45:35

is these are untrained they were idiots

45:37

hi how did you land billie macfarlane

45:39

and

45:40

yeah so this was this was something that

45:43

came about i would

45:45

say

45:46

essentially by surprise i

45:48

got a call from a friend of mine

45:50

who said hey i met

45:52

this guy and i have an opportunity for yeah

45:55

the guy from fire fast that manager

45:58

and i said okay

46:00

the guy in prison film for ireland he said yeah

46:02

if you want to do an interview niceties a lot to do interviews

46:05

from prison that's that's unusual

46:07

mean i've heard of it done

46:09

but it is unusual on he said our job where we

46:12

got this we got this confirmed

46:14

later that what's actually happening

46:17

billie mcfarland is using the

46:20

personal phone time in

46:22

prison the call me even

46:24

though he's not allowed to do that he's

46:26

only allowed to call friends

46:29

, family he's not really allowed

46:31

to be doing any sort of media stuff and

46:33

not only is he did not using his own person phone

46:35

time he's sort of bartered this

46:38

phone time with other inmates

46:40

and using their stuff but also kind

46:42

of not really we got the interview and

46:44

then what we found out he will let it was great interview

46:47

but what we found out afterwards was the prison

46:49

warden was so angry that he took billion

46:52

put him in solitary confinement for something

46:54

like seven months which

46:56

is not allowed but they

46:58

were say it had it with this guy he

47:00

probably got more serious punishment

47:03

some talking to you than for are

47:05

ripping a bunch of the boss fires us

47:07

of her real yeah i mean he he

47:09

has to pay all that restitution but he

47:12

just he was he was just couldn't fall the rules in

47:14

prison

47:15

to listen to the rest of the interview with jordan harbinger

47:18

go to pretend radio dot org slash

47:20

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47:23

where i have early release of episodes

47:25

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47:30

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47:32

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47:40

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47:42

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47:45

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47:47

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47:51

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47:54

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48:00

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48:02

jordan harbinger show searched

48:05

jordan harbinger wherever you get your

48:07

podcast our have a link in the

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zone

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