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today show. Here.

1:45

This is Ben Brash. I'm standing outside

1:47

the court in the Form County Superior

1:50

Court House. Here

1:52

in Downtown Atlanta, Georgia. And

1:55

court has rap for the day in

1:57

the wire so case he was a

1:59

pretty. Ben Brash is a general

2:01

assignment reporter for The Post, and

2:03

he was in Atlanta recently because

2:05

he's been following a massive and

2:07

historic case, the trial of

2:10

the rap artist Young Thug and his

2:12

music label YSL. The trial

2:14

is on track to be the longest running

2:16

criminal case ever in Georgia. Jury

2:19

selection took over 10 months

2:21

before opening arguments began. In

2:24

total, the trial has been going on for

2:26

almost a year and a half. And at

2:28

the center of this trial is Young Thug,

2:30

whose real name is Jeffrey Lamar Williams.

2:33

He's a 32-year-old Grammy award-winning rapper,

2:35

and he's helped solidify Atlanta as

2:38

an epicenter of rap. We

2:43

have one of the most notable hip-hop

2:45

artists in the world on trial. We

2:47

had to see what was going on. He's

2:49

sitting in a Fulton County courtroom,

2:52

and he is on trial and facing some

2:54

serious charges. A lot of

2:56

things make this trial complicated. One

2:58

being a special law in Georgia that

3:01

has allowed prosecutors to not just charge

3:03

Young Thug but several members of his

3:05

rap group. Over 20 people were

3:08

indicted. And the case

3:10

has huge implications for rap music because

3:12

it's not just Young Thug on trial

3:14

but his lyrics too. This could

3:16

have huge consequences for Atlanta's multi-billion

3:19

dollar rap scene and for black

3:21

artistic expression in general. And that

3:23

doesn't even take into account the

3:25

potential decades of prison time

3:28

for Williams and his co-defendants. In

3:33

the newsroom of The Washington Post, this is

3:36

Post Reports. I'm Elahe

3:38

Izzadi. It's Tuesday, May

3:40

21st. Today, the dramatic

3:42

trial of Young Thug. And

3:44

what the outcomes could mean, not just

3:47

for a group of Atlanta rappers but

3:49

for all musicians. Then

4:00

before we get into the details of the

4:02

trial, can you just tell me a little

4:04

bit more about who Young Thug is and

4:06

his background? You

4:08

know tell us where did he grow up

4:11

and what was his trajectory toward fame? So

4:14

yeah, Jeffery Lamar Williams was born one of 11

4:16

children on Cleveland Avenue, which

4:18

is a fairly impoverished underfunded

4:21

part of the city of Atlanta and

4:23

he had a hard life growing up You know again

4:25

being one of 11 kids without a lot of money

4:27

is tough From there he

4:29

released his first mixtape in 2011.

4:32

I came from nothing and

4:34

from there. It's been a meteoric rise in

4:38

2012 Thug co-founded

4:41

YSL which was he was

4:43

his label and He

4:45

records music under that label and he is

4:47

by far the largest name in that label

4:49

This is someone who's been accepted by the

4:51

music industry Everyone from

4:54

Drake to Elton John to Charles Gambino

4:56

fellow Atlanta with whom he won that

4:58

Grammy He presents himself in a very

5:01

interesting way on the cover

5:03

of one of his albums he was wearing

5:05

this hookah tour dress from Alessandro Trincone and

5:08

For him to show up with his six-two

5:10

frame with like all this flowy stuff on

5:13

it is just so notable and

5:16

The music is worth paying attention to but also visually

5:18

he just makes it so you cannot not pay

5:20

attention to him So he became

5:22

really famous pretty quickly after he started putting out

5:24

music Can you tell me more

5:26

about the sound of the music because I think

5:29

some people might think oh hip-hop is you

5:31

know? It's East Coast West Coast But he

5:33

was coming from Atlanta which was a

5:35

place where a lot of music started to come out

5:37

of a lot of hip-hop music Started to come out

5:39

of so what was the sound that he was you

5:41

know instrumental and helping to shape? So you have

5:44

trap music which talks about real gritty life

5:46

not to say that wasn't happening on either

5:48

coast before But the southern

5:50

experience was not being displayed. You know this

5:53

is this is a rap hub You have

5:55

you have Houston you have Memphis. I mean

5:57

these are southern cities with very notable

6:00

rap scenes, but Atlanta took off, it's the capital of

6:02

the South. So Thug Sound,

6:05

he took an emotional vulnerability,

6:07

and sometimes he wasn't even saying words,

6:10

and he was just emoting. It

6:12

was just like onomatopoeias.

6:15

And then other times it would

6:17

be like sophomoric lyrics,

6:19

like bodily function level lyrics.

6:22

And other times he would bust out

6:25

incredible poetry, put over really, really, really

6:27

unique beats, and people ate it up.

6:29

So Ben, even though I'm a hip

6:31

hop fan, I have to confess, I feel like this is

6:33

a little bit of a blind spot for me, because I

6:36

know the name, but if I had to pick

6:38

out of a lineup, identify the

6:40

song. I don't know if I could do

6:42

a shazam of a Young Thug song. So

6:44

maybe let's hear some,

6:47

and maybe it'll jog my memory of it.

6:49

Okay, Laha. So why don't we play one of his

6:51

most popular songs, the song he was featured on. And

6:54

it was the first moment for me that I was

6:56

really like, oh man, this is Young Thug. It was

6:58

like a breakout song for him. It came out in

7:00

2014. It was the song of

7:02

my summer of 2014, and it's called

7:04

Lifestyle. Just a little bit of lifestyle,

7:07

yeah, yeah, yeah. Can

7:09

you scare me, friend? Whoa, bottle, sit

7:11

atop my lifestyle. Okay,

7:13

Ben, you are like reciting this, like

7:16

lip syncing it right now. I have

7:18

to say, I feel like this is the sound

7:21

that's been so ubiquitous over the past 10 years.

7:23

Like I don't think I can get away from

7:25

this sound, what we just heard. You're

7:27

right, he popularized it. This is one

7:30

way to do trap music. This

7:32

song has been with us for a

7:34

decade, and it really

7:36

put Thug on the map, and it's so

7:38

good. And Ben, can you tell

7:40

me more about the group that he created YSL?

7:42

Because I think this is related to the case,

7:45

right? So yeah, like I was saying, it's a rap

7:47

group that he formed. Other members of the

7:49

group include famous rappers like Gunna, but

7:51

prosecutors in this case alleged that

7:53

it's not really rap labeled

7:55

as Blood's Affiliated Gang. They've

7:58

been committing crimes for the better part. over the last

8:00

decade. Tell me more

8:02

about the specific crimes that

8:04

Young Thug and his co-defendants

8:06

are facing. And what are some

8:08

of the things he's being accused of doing? Thug

8:11

was one of 28 people arrested in raids

8:13

across the city of Atlanta back in May

8:15

of 2022. That was two years

8:17

ago. And he's

8:19

been jailed without bond since then. The

8:22

indictment accuses Thug of running a murderous gang under

8:24

the guise of a record label. He's

8:28

accused in a list of

8:30

homicides, robberies, assaults, drug dealing,

8:32

and other alleged crimes. Investigators

8:35

also allege that Thug's lyrics about crimes and

8:37

shooting are based in reality, that they weren't

8:40

just art, that they're fact. Thug

8:43

has pleaded not guilty and denied all the charges

8:45

against him. And Thug's lawyers say

8:47

the government is trying to silence a generational

8:49

black artist using the case so thin that

8:51

the indictment needs to use his own lyrics

8:54

as, quote, overt acts and

8:56

furtherance of the conspiracy. Ben,

8:58

you mentioned that about two dozen

9:00

other people were arrested in those

9:03

raids back in Atlanta in 2022.

9:06

What do we know about those people? Yeah,

9:09

there are about two dozen other people believed

9:11

to be associated with Thug who were also

9:13

indicted. All of them are at

9:15

least charged with the RICO Act, which is

9:17

a racketeering crime. And so the law was

9:19

created to gather up

9:22

mob activity, mafia activity, and

9:25

charge people kind of

9:28

by association. So very

9:30

rarely, like in a mob movie, do

9:33

you have the boss going, like, I want you to whack

9:35

that guy at that place in that corner. You know what

9:37

I mean? For RICO,

9:39

you have to have been involved in a

9:41

certain amount of crimes. And so one of

9:43

the most notable things is, prosecutors

9:45

are alleging that Thug rented a car in

9:47

2015 that

9:50

was used in a drive-by. So the

9:52

connection implicates you. And I think a

9:54

lot of people are now paying attention

9:56

to RICO in Georgia, because this is

9:58

also what's being used in the state. in one

10:00

of the cases against former President Donald Trump,

10:02

right? Yes, this is indeed not

10:04

the only RICO case going on in Fulton

10:06

County. There's also the Atlanta

10:08

Forest Defenders, these group of demonstrators who

10:11

are protesting the building of a police

10:13

training facility, a massive police training facility

10:15

in Atlanta that is on

10:18

a very wooded, very important forested

10:20

area. They're being charged under

10:23

RICO. And to go back,

10:26

Fonnie Willis, who's a district attorney, who's decided it

10:28

is, I need to be charging

10:31

Donald Trump and Young Thug and

10:33

these demonstrators, she

10:36

ran the longest RICO

10:38

case previous to this, which was the

10:40

Atlanta Public Schools cheating scandal. She was

10:42

the prosecutor on that case. She has

10:44

said she's not afraid of running

10:46

a long case, and she's showing

10:49

that with these three massive RICO

10:51

cases. And it's

10:53

interesting because I think based on what you're

10:55

describing around RICO, that helps explain why some

10:57

of these alleged crimes took place a while

10:59

ago, but are now just being tried now.

11:02

Right. You can wrap up all

11:04

these crimes under the umbrella. That's the common

11:06

term, like under the umbrella of this organization.

11:09

And so a lot of the crimes that we're

11:11

talking about don't have statute limitations anyway. But

11:14

if you include all these things, you, the

11:16

prosecutor say, need it to paint the full

11:18

picture of the criminal enterprise. So

11:20

what are the specific charges that Young

11:22

Thug is facing? So to be clear,

11:25

Thug is facing a RICO charge

11:28

and he's also facing a gang charge. He

11:30

is not facing a murder charge or assault

11:32

or any of those things. He's facing RICO

11:34

and gang activity, both of which are serious

11:36

charges, but neither are murder. And

11:39

who are some of the other people charged in this case?

11:41

Right. Some of the other people are associates of

11:43

YSL. Some

11:46

of them are rappers, most

11:48

famously Gunna, who took a

11:50

plea deal. And so

11:52

what has Young Thug and his co-defendants said about

11:54

these charges? Yeah, there are so

11:56

many defendants, so it's kind of a mixed bag. Thug

11:59

maintains his energy. but since the group

12:01

has indicted, some have entered a plea deal, some

12:03

are going to trial separately, and some are co-defendants

12:05

with Thug right now in the current trial. So

12:08

after what sounds like a really long

12:10

period of jury selection, the trial finally

12:13

got underway in November, and that means

12:15

this has all been going on for

12:17

more than a year already, which, I

12:20

don't know, that sounds like a very long

12:22

time. Can you explain why it's taking so

12:25

long and what's caused these delays? Well,

12:28

when you have this many attorneys for

12:30

this many defendants, they

12:32

can all raise their hand and say, I don't agree with

12:34

what just happened. It's adversarial

12:36

inherently, right? The prosecution and the defense,

12:39

but usually when you

12:41

see it in like a TV show,

12:43

it's just one table versus one table.

12:45

Here we have several tables versus one

12:47

prosecutor's table. So it's very resource-intensive

12:49

if they want to file a motion that they

12:51

don't agree with something that evidence

12:53

wasn't entered correctly.

12:55

So it's a lot of

12:58

administrative stuff. Plus, it's really

13:00

complicated. The prosecution has hundreds

13:02

of witnesses that they're putting forward.

13:04

We're talking lab techs who have

13:06

maybe never even heard of young

13:08

Thug, but just swabbed something, you

13:10

know? And then you have detectives

13:12

who interviewed people at the scene

13:14

of, you know, a shooting.

13:18

And then you have, yes, people who might

13:20

have been involved. So the reason

13:22

it's taken so long is the administrative stuff, but also

13:24

there have been very chaotic moments

13:26

in this trial. Tell me about some

13:28

of those chaotic moments. Right. Well, one

13:30

of the co-defendants being stabbed in jail.

13:32

Oh my gosh. Right. He is alive.

13:36

But that caused a pause on the

13:38

trial as he got

13:40

well. When you have that many

13:42

people in a room and a tense room,

13:45

things just get hectic. They're in and out

13:47

of jail. We have one instance

13:49

where one of the co-defendants was taken to the back. So

13:51

they thought that he might've had weed on him. So they

13:53

take him to the back and they say, we have to

13:55

strip search you. And he's like, I would rather you not.

13:58

And they say, well, too bad. And so then

14:00

there is body camera footage that was released via

14:02

local news outlet of

14:04

them stripping his clothes off because he

14:07

refused and he's screaming. And then his

14:09

co-defendants, his friends. Like in

14:11

the courtroom. In a back room. And you

14:13

can hear the screams. Oh, while you're in the courtroom.

14:15

In the courtroom. And

14:24

then everyone's looking around, Sugg's like, what's

14:26

going on? Starting around. And

14:29

so some of the co-defendants try to go back there and

14:31

the deputies are like, no. Oh, so this is like turning

14:34

into a big. It's a scene. It

14:36

ended up that he allegedly had two

14:38

bags of weed sewed into his underwear.

14:40

Okay. And

14:42

so they clear the courtroom because the deputies

14:44

did not want to lose control of this.

14:47

It's all being live stream. Yeah. I

14:49

mean, what's striking me about this is, you

14:52

know, thinking about this high

14:54

profile trial that involves so

14:56

many people. It's almost

14:58

like not just one trial. It's like 20 trials

15:00

in one. And then it's being live

15:02

streamed. And then you have people who are super famous

15:04

at the heart of it. And

15:07

it's a spectacle in one sense, right? Yes.

15:11

The YouTube comments are constantly streaming. You know,

15:13

he did it. He didn't do a free

15:15

thug. I hate rap. Whatever. The

15:18

whole time. I mean, it's like an online

15:20

spectacle. And like all the rap blogs are

15:23

posting with every minute legal

15:25

happening. But

15:28

beyond the spectacle, there are bigger

15:30

stakes at play here and beyond,

15:33

you know, the obvious implications for

15:35

an individual's life. Right?

15:38

Yes. Whatever happens with

15:40

these charges, we have implications of

15:43

the use of lyrics,

15:45

the use of art in prosecution.

15:47

That's something that gets a lot of attorneys

15:49

attention. The First Amendment is a very

15:52

well established legal

15:54

doctrine. So what does that mean

15:56

for the country writ large? After

16:03

the break, how young Thug's lyrics

16:05

are being used against him, and

16:08

the precedent this case could set for

16:10

other artists. We'll be right back.

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Company. Grant would conduct. I

17:11

want to talk more about the evidence

17:13

that the prosecutors are using against

17:15

young Thug and his co-defendants, and

17:18

specifically the lyrics. I know

17:20

that that's not the only aspect

17:23

of the evidence that's being introduced, but can

17:26

you just talk me through what exactly

17:28

the government's case is here in

17:30

regards to the lyrics? In

17:33

the prosecution's perspective, the lyrics show that

17:35

he was a kingpin of this criminal

17:37

enterprise that went out and killed people

17:39

and sold drugs in Fulton County. So

17:42

prosecutors are saying that these

17:44

words matter, that the words he uses are relevant.

17:46

So a lot of times, Thug will rap about

17:48

push and pee. Prosecutors are saying that push and

17:50

pee means that you're selling drugs. And

17:53

Thug, in a sense, is saying

17:55

it means pushing positivity. It

18:00

means any circumstance you're in, if

18:03

you think positively about something, you can

18:06

make it through. And they say,

18:08

well, what does thug mean? You know, what

18:11

are the initials? T-H-U-G means? What

18:13

does that mean? And they're saying, oh, it

18:15

means truly humble under God. Thug meant

18:17

and means to Jeffrey. I

18:20

think very patient.

18:23

It was his path.

18:25

He could ever make it as

18:28

a musical artist and

18:32

help his family, himself,

18:34

and as many others out

18:37

of this endless

18:39

cycle of

18:42

hopelessness. He

18:44

would be truly humble

18:48

under God. That's

18:51

what thug means. Oh,

18:54

interesting. There's just this debate,

18:56

it sounds like, in the courtroom as

18:58

to what these lyrics mean and how

19:00

they relate to this case. Right.

19:02

So prosecutors have also said that young thug is connected

19:04

to the murder of Donovan Thomas, who's an alleged gang

19:07

member in 2015. Some

19:09

of thug's lyrics say, 100 rounds in a Tahoe. And

19:21

Thomas was standing next to a Chevy Tahoe when

19:23

he was gunned down. Prosecutors

19:25

allege that thug rented the car that was used

19:27

by the person who killed Thomas. How

19:29

is it that the prosecution can argue that the

19:32

lyrics are fair game? Because I'm

19:34

not a lawyer, but it's surprising to me to

19:36

hear this because there's a long history of not

19:38

just rap music, but a lot of different genres

19:41

of music of people saying things in

19:43

their songs. And it doesn't mean that

19:45

they actually committed those crimes. Right. I

19:47

don't remember Johnny Cash getting charged for saying he shot

19:50

a man in Reno just to watch him die. Right.

19:53

So why this? Well, a lot of experts say this

19:55

is the only genre that gets held up on these

19:57

charges. Hmm. I wonder what makes this genre

19:59

different from all the other ones. They're saying that this is

20:01

unfairly targeting black people, black music, and

20:04

their creative output. But

20:07

what's the prosecution's argument against that, or

20:09

to that? The prosecution's saying,

20:11

well, it's not just the lyrics, that

20:13

Thug and his co-conspirators are pushing out

20:15

an image of themselves online and on

20:17

social media that makes it seem

20:19

like they're in gangs. For

20:22

example, they'll throw up gang signs and pictures

20:24

on Instagram, or they'll change

20:26

words and captions and lyrics, where words

20:28

that start with C now

20:30

start with B, which is a pretty telltale

20:33

sign that someone's affiliated with the Bloods. So

20:35

do you think other rappers are concerned

20:38

about the implications of this case and

20:40

how it could

20:42

affect what artists can say in their

20:44

songs? So I spoke to

20:46

more than a few rappers, and I

20:48

think they're struggling to believe that this

20:51

could actually hamper their ability to speak

20:53

freely. And so the

20:55

truest thing I heard when I spoke to all of

20:57

them was one rapper saying, no one's paying attention to

20:59

this, but maybe we should be. They're

21:01

not worried about it, because it's hard to conceptualize

21:04

that free speech would be not applicable to

21:06

their art. So people

21:09

are not talking about it in the streets like, oh, we're not going

21:11

to be able to say what we want to say, because honestly, it's

21:13

hard to believe. But maybe it's something

21:15

that they should be concerned about. Ben, is

21:17

there a history, though, of prosecutors

21:19

using rap lyrics? Totally.

21:21

No, this has definitely happened before and a

21:23

lot. We have two live crew back in

21:25

the early 90s. We have Snoop Dogg. We

21:27

have Mack Dre. We have tons of artists

21:29

who have been held up on their

21:32

expression. California, notably, created this law that

21:34

restricts the use of rap lyrics in

21:37

prosecution. And that's a big deal for a lot

21:39

of West Coast artists. Yeah,

21:42

and that makes me wonder, Ben,

21:44

about the takeaways of the effect

21:46

of this trial on music, on

21:49

hip hop. As

21:51

the case grinds on, what will you be looking

21:53

to and what do you think we should be

21:55

paying attention to? Me, personally, I'm

21:57

going to be looking at things.

21:59

so I just see how he's doing. This has affected his

22:02

health and just keeping an eye on him as a

22:04

human being. Other things to consider

22:06

in the broader sense, I mean, what

22:09

this could mean for Elena's rap scene.

22:12

We don't know the lyrics that we might miss

22:14

out on because there's a chilling effect. We don't

22:16

know the art that we could miss because of

22:18

this. The other thing to think about is, this

22:21

is someone with a lot of money to fight

22:23

the law for his artistic

22:25

expression. And for the

22:27

normal person walking around, they don't have

22:29

the money and the resources needed to

22:31

fight against the state on something like

22:33

this. So if they feel

22:35

like their art is being infringed

22:38

upon in a First Amendment sense, they're not gonna

22:40

have the resources that Young Thug has. And of

22:42

course, this isn't the first time this has happened,

22:44

but for this generation, this is their lyrics on

22:47

trial case. Well,

22:52

Ben, thank you so much for joining and explaining all this

22:54

to me. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Ben

23:00

Brash is a general assignment reporter for The

23:03

Post. Before you go,

23:05

I wanted to share some other stories that we're

23:07

following today. There are primary elections

23:09

going on in the US right now. Voters

23:12

are casting ballots in four

23:15

states, Georgia, Idaho, Kentucky, and

23:17

Oregon. The Oregon race

23:19

is especially important because voters today

23:21

are choosing which Democrat and Republican

23:23

will face off in November. And

23:26

that's a highly competitive race that

23:28

could determine which party controls the

23:30

house next year. And

23:32

a battle is brewing in the world

23:34

of artificial intelligence. After

23:36

Scarlett Johansson is threatening legal action

23:39

against the AI startup, OpenAI, she

23:42

says that the company asked her to

23:44

voice one of their new chatbots, and

23:46

she refused their requests multiple times. But

23:49

then the company released a demo of

23:51

the technology. It looks

23:54

like you're feeling pretty happy and cheerful

23:56

with a big smile and maybe even a touch

23:58

of excitement. Whatever's going

24:00

on, it seems like you're in a great mood.

24:04

Care to share the source of those good vibes? Johansson

24:06

told the Post in a statement that

24:08

her closest friends thought it was actually

24:11

her. A lot of people

24:13

said it sounded like Johansson's character in

24:15

the 2013 movie, Her, where she performed

24:17

the voice of a super intelligent AI

24:19

assistant. OpenAI CEO, Sam

24:22

Altman, told the Post that it wasn't

24:24

Johansson's voice and that it, quote, was

24:26

never intended to resemble hers. That's

24:31

it for Post Reports. Thanks for

24:33

listening. Today's show was produced

24:35

by Savvy Robinson. It was

24:38

mixed by Sean Carter and edited by Monica

24:40

Campbell. Thanks to Martin Powers. And

24:43

just a reminder, you only have until June

24:45

3rd to get that amazing subscription deal that

24:47

I mentioned at the top of the show.

24:49

So you might as well make good on

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it now. It's 99 cents

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for every four weeks. Subscribe now

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to lock in that rate for

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a full year. Just go to

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washingtonpost.com/subscribe. Like I said before, there's

25:02

also a link in our show

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notes wherever you're listening. Thanks

25:06

again. I'm Elahe Izzadi.

25:08

We'll be back tomorrow with more stories

25:10

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