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terms at mintmobile.com To

0:35

former Prime minister's two very

0:37

different proposals for fixing the

0:39

Uk. Welcome

0:44

to Political Fix your essential inside

0:46

A guy to Westminster from the

0:48

Financial Times with me Lucy Fisher.

0:51

Coming up we're going to be talking

0:53

about this week's Ft profiles of to

0:55

form a Uk premiere is Liz Truss

0:57

and Gordon Brown and their diagnoses of

0:59

what's gone wrong in the Uk. But.

1:02

First rushes to Knock has been driving forward

1:04

his own pet policies. He's pushed ahead with

1:07

his flagship plans for a smoke free generation,

1:09

but not without a backlash from his own

1:11

and peace. And. To discuss

1:13

all this, I'm joined in the studio

1:15

by my Ft colleagues Miranda Green hi

1:18

Miranda, Hello Lucy and Steven Bush. How

1:20

Lucy? So.

1:26

Let's. Kick off talking about the

1:28

smoking ban, which has passed it's

1:30

first hurdle in the Commons this

1:32

week, despite opposition from cabinet and

1:34

backbenches, I'm Steven Eve come up

1:36

with some really fascinating statistics on

1:38

just how much the country's change

1:40

when it comes to attitudes towards

1:42

making. Be. Our I'm filled. I'm

1:45

one of those rabbit hole where you're spending

1:47

a lot of time on hands on know,

1:49

why am I doing this So office in

1:51

two thousand and six that was a similarly

1:53

a free vote on banning smoking in public

1:55

and enclosed spaces. Then as now it was

1:57

divisive within the governing party. I'm a conservative.

2:00

party, the two biggest faces of that

2:02

debate in 2006 were Patricia Hewitt, the Health

2:04

Secretary whose baby the policy was, and John

2:06

Reid, her predecessor as Health Secretary and then

2:09

the Home Secretary. And I think

2:11

the striking thing is obviously it

2:13

was a significant rebellion. Well,

2:15

not rebellion, it was a free vote. Slightly weirdly

2:17

in the UK, we include

2:19

public health measures as conscience issues, so seat

2:21

belts, smoking bans, these have all been free

2:23

votes historically. But

2:26

in 2006, 125 conservative

2:29

MPs voted against the ban on smoking

2:31

in enclosed spaces. And at

2:34

that time, that was the vast majority of

2:36

conservative MPs. This time, 57 conservative

2:39

MPs did. And although

2:41

among their number, you have people who

2:44

opposed it last time who are, you

2:46

know, very consistently anti this type of

2:48

measure, people like Adam Afri, Jonathan Jangly,

2:50

ironically, actually, a non conservative MP who's

2:52

voted against it both times is George

2:55

Galloway in his respect guys and his

2:57

workers party GB guys.

2:59

But you also had some conservative MPs

3:01

who, you know, their allies would be

3:03

fairly candid in private about saying it

3:05

was about trying to find a way

3:07

to hurt the Prime Minister. So

3:10

I think really significant things in some ways

3:12

is, you know, the complete

3:14

extinction of the anti ban

3:17

constituency in the Labour Party, and

3:19

its significant reduction in the

3:21

Conservative Party shows just how far the

3:23

political consensus has moved in Westminster. Obviously,

3:26

the British public as a whole loves

3:28

banning things and pretty much always has.

3:31

Miranda, I mean, I was looking at some of the

3:33

statistics, the fact that 64,000 people a year in England

3:38

die from cigarettes still today, even

3:40

though only 12% of

3:42

the population smoke down from Stephen,

3:44

I got this from your inside

3:46

politics newsletter, 82% of men smoking

3:48

at the peak of cigarette mania

3:51

in 1948. So, and my

3:53

dear monsters, I'm not surprised Labour back to it had a lot

3:55

of support across the Commons, including from the

3:58

Conservative benches too. But those are you

4:00

do object to it say it's not

4:02

workable this plan to ban smoking for

4:04

anyone currently age 14 and to raise

4:07

the age limit every year you know you'll have

4:09

the farcical situation in say 20 years time where

4:11

people are saying well hang on are you you

4:13

know 34 or 35 you don't have to show ID

4:15

yes there's something

4:19

in that that's a

4:21

really good question I mean the

4:23

workability of the age sort

4:25

of criteria in practice has got

4:27

to be thought through a bit

4:29

more perhaps and also

4:31

you know there is the kind

4:33

of question of whether you were

4:35

encouraging black market practices around tobacco

4:37

there are logical inconsistencies for some

4:39

as well I mean I saw

4:41

a kind of prominent Lib Dem

4:44

activist saying this is crazy my

4:46

party's now in favor of legalizing

4:48

cannabis and criminalizing tobacco is this

4:50

actually the way the country should go but actually

4:53

I think I probably agree with the

4:55

Prime Minister that this is a kind

4:58

of another major step in the kind

5:00

of historic change from a smoking population

5:02

to a non-smoking population and that when

5:04

we look back on this

5:06

week's sort of start of the legislative

5:09

process it'll be very much like the

5:11

way that Stevens look back on the

5:13

ban on smoking and it is in

5:15

enclosed spaces because as

5:17

your figures sort of showed tobacco

5:20

has a uniquely appalling effect on

5:22

human health so it's not really

5:24

like any other category of ban

5:26

I don't think and when you

5:28

look at the cost to the

5:30

NHS and it's not just

5:33

cancer it's circulatory diseases it's heart

5:35

health you know it's everything right

5:37

across the board there's

5:39

a case that is you know uneconomic

5:42

as well as a health disaster so

5:44

I think it's sort of something on

5:46

which it's not that surprising that the

5:48

Prime Minister had a lot of cross-party

5:50

support and consensus I mean personally I'm

5:52

not sure I agree with Stevens saying

5:54

that it weird that a public health

5:56

measure like this should be a free

5:58

vote I think it's right to have it

6:00

as a free vote. And I'm not sure that Labour

6:03

Party unity looks as great as they

6:05

think, maybe on that. I think there

6:07

is an argument for the

6:09

remaining idea that some issues of

6:12

conscience to do with the broader

6:14

question of our culture, the liberal

6:16

versus authoritarian

6:19

slant of Britain, should

6:21

be a conscience matter, actually. I suppose, for

6:24

me, I think the difference is between seatbelts

6:26

and smoking and death penalty

6:29

assisted dying is, as literally as

6:31

I was doing this question about workability, ultimately,

6:35

this ban does have implications

6:37

for what the government spends and does,

6:39

right? That quarter of cigarette sales through

6:41

the illicit market, you know, that's not

6:43

just a fun stat, that is a

6:45

quarter of revenue that goes into the

6:47

underground economy, into criminal activities. And yeah,

6:50

I don't want to sound unduly callous, but I'm

6:52

afraid I should have taken

6:54

the view that I am much less bothered

6:56

by what someone who chooses to smoke does

6:58

to themselves than what that quarter of trade

7:01

does to someone who gets caught in county

7:03

lines or is stabbed by someone because they

7:05

look at the OTA, who makes

7:07

eye contact with the wrong gang member

7:09

on the up, would say, that quarter

7:11

of trade does have a huge number

7:13

of sort of indirect harms. So

7:16

I think because it has public policy implications

7:18

that aren't just about, you know, how we

7:20

live and relate to each other, I think

7:22

it's slightly different from the other

7:24

conscience issues. I think the interesting question

7:26

is, in some ways, the reason why

7:28

this is probably more workable

7:30

than it seems on the face of it

7:33

is those hypothetical 30-somethings will both be vaping

7:35

anyway. And so

7:37

the kind of question

7:39

is, is this actually a useful public policy

7:41

intervention or is it the kind of public

7:43

policy equivalent of shouting after someone, yeah, you

7:46

better run when they've already turned away? I

7:48

mean, you both are taking at face value

7:50

that people are voting on this as a

7:52

matter of conscience. There's

7:54

a lot of political flares going up as well,

7:56

aren't there? And I'm sort of interested in the

7:58

sequencing of Kemi Badenot, coming out first as

8:01

one of the front bench heavyweights to

8:03

say she was going to vote against

8:05

it, followed by Penny Mordent, some right

8:07

wingers I was talking to in the

8:09

pub last night, laughing that Penny Mordent,

8:11

known well as a moderate, has finally

8:13

found her libertarian credentials. What

8:15

was your take on some of the names of

8:18

those opposing the bill Miranda? Well I think our

8:20

cynical attitude is probably the correct one, don't you

8:22

think, on those two names? Because we know that

8:24

those are two people being talked about as potential

8:27

successors to Rishi Sunak, should

8:29

the toys be defeated as we expect at the

8:32

general election, and you know they're going to have

8:34

to face the Conservative membership,

8:37

which is a different audience from MPs

8:39

and a different audience from their constituents.

8:41

We know that the public strongly backs

8:44

this smoking ban, as it actually backs quite

8:46

a lot of inverted commerce nanny states, issues

8:49

including on things like sugar tax, which Boris Johnson

8:52

refers to as, but you

8:54

know the Conservative membership may not share the

8:56

consensus view of the House of Commons on

8:58

this, so yeah I do think that was

9:00

an important signal in terms of their

9:02

future ambitions. Stephen, what

9:04

did you think? Rob Gemrick, Liz Truss? I

9:08

think, so someone like Liz Truss has always

9:10

been opposed to things like sugar taxes, the

9:14

smoking bans, but in times past at

9:16

Conservative conference one of the sort of

9:18

hot tickets for the right of the

9:20

party was the smoking rally,

9:23

as it were, you know where you'd have various pro-smoking

9:26

people wandering around, literally

9:29

people plotting a smoke-filled room. And

9:31

so I think some of these names are

9:33

people who've been in those smoke-filled rooms and do

9:35

genuinely believe that it is an imposition

9:38

on freedoms and

9:40

it is an overweening state act, and some

9:42

of those people are visibly just showing a

9:44

bit of leg to the right of the

9:47

party. I think in terms of the

9:49

overall mood of the parliamentary parties we

9:51

shouldn't forget that some of the Conservative

9:53

MPs who voted for this were also

9:55

being cynical. I spoke to someone who,

9:57

I asked them how they were, and I said, I'm not going to do

9:59

that. were going to vote expecting given other conversations I've had with

10:02

them and they go, of course I'm voting against it, it's

10:04

dreadful, and they say I'm going to vote for. And

10:06

I failed to compose my face and

10:09

they said, well look, it's going to pass anyway. And

10:11

they said, and I know that there are colleagues who agree

10:13

with it who are going to vote against it to cause

10:15

harm to the Prime Minister. I think if

10:17

there's more harm to the Prime Minister then it'll be even

10:19

worse for the party. So I

10:21

think the cynicism kind of cancels itself

10:23

out. You kind of end up with

10:25

a representative sample of the parliamentary party

10:27

even though some of those

10:30

people are very much not voting

10:32

for principal reasons. And I also think it's

10:34

interesting that we've seen people like Rob Halston who's

10:36

well known to enjoy a cigar

10:39

and indeed was seen in a sort

10:41

of smart West End private members club

10:43

later on the night after voting to

10:45

ban smoking for youngsters enjoying one of

10:47

the cigars and people suggesting that was

10:49

somehow hypocritical, which I don't agree with,

10:51

but it just shows it's difficult for

10:53

people to vote and say

10:55

do as we say and not as we do.

10:58

Well I suppose so, but there's the argument of

11:00

don't become a sad addict like I am. But

11:03

I think this point about the

11:05

anti-nanny statism of the Tory grassroots is

11:07

important to make though because I've been

11:09

really amazed at the number of Tories

11:12

who are keen to latch onto a

11:14

proposal from the Labour Party about trying

11:16

to tackle children's dental health in

11:18

school by getting them to be

11:21

taught to clean their teeth properly in school. And

11:24

they're obsessed with this. They blog about it,

11:26

they talk about it, the Daily Telegraph writes about it the

11:29

whole time. You know this

11:31

whole idea of an overweening state interfering

11:34

in families' responsibilities for its own

11:36

health really, really is a

11:38

kind of hot button for the grassroots.

11:40

Well they'll have more to get, it's

11:42

set about under a stommer government if Labour

11:45

wins the election because I think we're going

11:47

to see more nanny statism not least as

11:50

a repository of measures

11:52

that he can look to introduce

11:54

that don't cost money in public

11:56

finances. Can we just turn

11:58

quickly to the Rwanda bill? Another

12:00

legacy issue for soon. I mean Miranda

12:02

that's faced yet more setbacks this week Yeah

12:05

It's been a classic ping-pong between the House

12:07

of Commons and the House of Lords and

12:09

in fact Although the government was hoping to

12:11

actually get it finished this week. It's not

12:14

being pushed into next week The

12:16

two key problems seem to be the House

12:18

of Lords wanting to insist on Monitoring

12:21

of whether Rwanda truly is

12:23

a safe destination to outsource

12:25

our asylum seekers which

12:27

the government is resisting and also this idea

12:29

of exemptions for Afghans

12:32

who served alongside did jobs

12:34

for the British services During

12:37

the invasion and then occupation

12:39

and then rehabilitation of Afghanistan

12:41

They seem to have decided that they cannot give

12:43

ground on any of this. I'm not

12:46

quite sure where they go with this actually Lucy I don't

12:48

know if you've got any more insights in it because those

12:50

don't seem to me like wrecking

12:52

amendments They seem like a

12:54

constructive way forward, which they're going

12:56

to have to find in some form What

12:59

do you think Steven yet another round

13:01

of ping-pong are the Lord's? Overreaching

13:04

on this the Commons has you know

13:06

approved this bill several times now and

13:08

the Lord's Increasingly look like

13:10

they're blocking it. Well in terms

13:12

of the yeah enumerated powers of the Lord

13:14

It's not in the man if we're not in the manifesto

13:17

The public doesn't think the scheme works. So

13:19

it's from a kind of Operation

13:22

of the British Constitution perspective. It's kind

13:24

of fine. It's not in the manifesto

13:26

and it's not about supply Money,

13:28

then the Lord's can veto it

13:31

You know unless the Parliament Act comes into play

13:34

which allows the yeah allows the

13:36

Commons to eventually override the unelected house Although

13:38

obviously there isn't enough time left in this

13:40

parliament for that to come into play to

13:42

remind listeners peers like to appeal to

13:44

the Salisbury Convention the Unwritten rules

13:46

by which if something hasn't appeared in the

13:49

manifesto and it's not a money issue They

13:51

don't have to vote through the government's

13:53

program. The interesting underlying political

13:55

gamble here is that If

13:58

The labor leadership was. Scared about

14:00

an election in which recent actions

14:03

campaign was the main parties blocking

14:05

the Rwanda scheme. Than.

14:07

The House of Lords would have rolled over

14:10

already in x. a hundred labor pays would

14:12

have just all inexplicably have no wait a

14:14

or whatever. Now they might be right, they

14:16

might be wrong. Yeah, it's only pushes up

14:18

against the limits of what feels to me.

14:21

Appropriate for with ultimately be appointed house

14:23

spot. I think we really comes down

14:25

to his than because the Conservative party

14:28

are no longer trusted on immigration. I'm

14:30

the Labour party which in times past

14:32

would have been very fearful about having

14:35

is kind of fights now. Quite relishes

14:37

at that might turn out to be

14:39

huge miscalculations assist or one the policy

14:42

seems to have done that was Catholic

14:44

to party but that is why they

14:46

feel empowered to have these delays. And

14:49

Miranda I mean number Ten on Thursday

14:51

refusing to recommit to that deadline of

14:53

getting flights of the ground by this

14:55

spring? Don't feel like the timetable is

14:57

sitting with each week goes by says

14:59

that was when the selling of some

15:01

of the housing to be no accommodate

15:04

his asylum seekers this week. It's this

15:06

suggestion that they can't find an airliner

15:08

to take these asylum seekers. It might

15:10

have to be the already asked to

15:12

read purpose of Voyager to do it.

15:14

Yet kind of a mess is that they'd

15:16

be know that in newspapers have that kind

15:18

of understanding of what a deadline really mean.

15:21

The see though as that politically it is

15:23

extremely important that they get these slights off

15:25

the ground, even though in a sense it's

15:27

kind of nonsensical. a fly off the ground

15:29

is not. Stopping. The boats. in

15:32

any sense but this argument that it's

15:34

it's it's herons can only be proven

15:36

to be true this is the flights

15:38

as he leaves right so far as

15:40

the and points out as nice as

15:42

the only home office minister has been

15:44

the only brits to actually end up

15:47

in rwanda say false on sort pills

15:49

it's to in a politically is a

15:51

it's only have a nice as cool

15:53

as they can make it happen to

15:55

so far it is just a catalogue

15:57

goals disaster and delay and parliamentary but

16:00

What's interesting in terms of both these

16:02

topics, we're talking about the future of the Conservative

16:04

Party, is Robert Genrich has done such a bad

16:06

job of managing his public reputation that we think

16:09

everything he says is cynical. But actually

16:11

his policy objection to this

16:13

when he resigned is not

16:15

necessarily wrong. The

16:18

scheme might not work even if it passes.

16:20

And then of course it's yet another way

16:22

that the word Rwanda and the word failure

16:24

and the word Conservative appears in headlines. Well,

16:27

we'll have to come back as these

16:29

troubles roll on. The

16:35

smoking ban and the Rwanda immigration

16:37

policy are both seen as legacy

16:40

issues for SUNAC, something prime ministers

16:42

always have a BDI on. And

16:44

this week my FT colleagues have been looking

16:46

at the prescription of two former inhabitants of

16:48

number 10 for fixing the UK's ills. For

16:51

more on that, joining Miranda, Stephen and

16:53

me, we have the FT's political editor George

16:56

Parker, who is speaking to us

16:58

from the pub in Bridgeport. Aren't you George? I

17:00

am. We've just been doing a bit

17:02

of local government election reporting down in Dorcy's and all

17:04

the way back to London we've stopped off a very

17:07

nice pub, give it a plug, the Lord Nelson pub

17:09

in Bridgeport. And actually the landlord

17:11

has been very accommodating because it turns out he

17:14

is a big fan of the FT

17:16

and of the Political Fix podcast. Fantastic.

17:18

Well, George, you've interviewed Liz Truss this

17:21

week. Meanwhile, the FT's chief features writer

17:23

Henry Mantz is here with us in the

17:25

studio. Hi, Henry. Hey, great to be

17:27

here. And you've been speaking to Gordon Brown. I

17:29

have. I thought with all these slightly

17:31

venal politicians around, it might be nice to

17:33

think of someone who has a slightly different

17:35

take on life. Well,

17:38

let's start by talking about Brown.

17:40

I mean, the two prime ministers,

17:42

ex-prime ministers, couldn't be more different

17:44

in some ways. In

17:46

another sense, the key affliction that they

17:49

face is the same, that sort of

17:51

crying out for relevance after number 10.

17:54

And Gordon Brown's been telling you what he's been up to

17:57

recently, trying to find a role for himself. Yes.

18:00

Gordon Brown is now very much space back

18:02

in his former constituency, and I really got

18:04

a sense I spent most of a day

18:06

with him to suit them. Adam breaths. I've

18:08

really got a sense of how locally grounded

18:10

he is, right Say he is, That. Near.

18:13

The town where his father used to

18:15

preach. When we drove over in his

18:17

his Range Rover at the land that

18:19

his grandfather used to farm, he went

18:21

to university that a brand is helping

18:23

our a local. Charity

18:25

and he's come up with in a

18:27

way in which they can effectively become

18:30

a food bank. the lots of types

18:32

of products right? So at the big

18:34

Amazon Warehouse for all the returns in

18:36

the Uk very near where Brown lives

18:38

in Fife and his idea is to

18:41

get those returns and was. A lot

18:43

of fair access stock and to reap

18:45

have the same make sort of go

18:47

to waste and his impact family taken

18:49

up by needy families I think is

18:52

a enough for me it's a sort

18:54

of a demonstration of his he a

18:56

commitment to public service in a his

18:58

morality was overbearing and difficult am he

19:00

is not a my without complications of

19:03

i discovered but he'd he'd send really

19:05

wants to try and help Austin's money

19:07

comes from it's all there's a problem

19:09

minister in Scotland and in he he

19:11

talks about. Meeting front victims when he

19:14

was a kid and in a very

19:16

poor kids from traveling so coming to

19:18

school and him saying that and poverty

19:20

and then think that's why I want

19:22

to go into politics and say that

19:24

on miss him comes right through him

19:26

and I really think it listening quite

19:28

impressive about someone who remains grounded in

19:30

a community and and with that mission

19:32

will com cases with and comfy. Yeah

19:35

I loved and this process for meal or

19:37

into. The Henry What you said browns.

19:39

And Home exceeds fidelity. A dozen copies

19:41

of his autobiographies. appalled. In the hole

19:43

in his study, the Tv is blocked

19:45

by another pile of that's bad as

19:47

soon private healthcare and declined to sit

19:49

for an official parliament he portrayed he

19:51

doesn't want a nice it. it's not

19:53

funny so he must have some luxuries

19:55

you asked? It's not really where I.

19:57

that's a by the way he said them

19:59

he said that he reads the FT that

20:01

he's not a premium subscriber. He can't afford

20:03

the premium subscription. And I think in his

20:05

resignation speech, actually, he talked about how he

20:07

didn't enjoy the trappings and the luxuries and

20:09

the show of office. He sort

20:11

of, and he found that very awkward. And even

20:13

getting him to pose for a photo was

20:17

quite tricky. I mean, it was clear he was

20:19

gonna have to do it because the slot as

20:21

it appears in the newspaper requires a photo, but

20:23

it was also clear that he found it all

20:25

a bit embarrassing. And could it not be about

20:27

him? Compare that, of course, with Liz Truss, who

20:29

would love, I'm sure, for any kind of photo.

20:31

Could it be retweeted and reposted on Instagram as

20:33

much as possible? So yes, unusual, I think. He's

20:36

given a lot of thought to the ways in which he

20:39

thinks the country's gone backwards since

20:41

the new Labour years. I wonder if we

20:43

could just hear a clip of you asking

20:45

him about the Conservative-led administration that took over

20:47

from him. If the

20:49

Conservatives run an election campaign, and

20:52

I don't really wanna be party political, but if they

20:54

want to run a campaign, they've taken

20:56

people out of poverty, it is not the real

20:58

life. It's not where people are.

21:01

This is austerity's children that we're

21:03

talking about. These are people who

21:05

are the victims of not taking

21:08

care to provide rising child benefit.

21:11

So he spoke to a lot about the damage

21:13

he thought austerity had done, but

21:15

you were a little bit skeptical in your interview of

21:17

what he might have had to do regarding swinging cuts

21:19

if he'd won the 2010 election. Yeah,

21:21

I suppose I went back into the history to

21:23

2010, and

21:25

obviously there were these days after the election

21:28

where it was possible, at least

21:30

on paper, that there could have been a

21:32

coalition of Labour and the Liberal Democrats, rather

21:35

than the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.

21:38

And Brown himself was one obstacle to that deal,

21:40

and I think he agreed that he might have

21:42

to go as Prime Minister. The

21:45

way the political mood and the political debate

21:47

had developed in the months before the election,

21:49

I think was such that any incoming government

21:51

was gonna make cuts, and we didn't foresee,

21:54

I think, the opportunity

21:57

in those years to use low interest rates to

21:59

really invest. And we didn't also

22:01

foresee that austerity would go on in such

22:03

a way that it would leave, you know,

22:05

parts of the public services and you can

22:07

look at prisons, look at local government in

22:10

a complete state. I wasn't

22:12

entirely satisfied that he realized the sort

22:14

of missed opportunity. The debate wasn't had,

22:16

and perhaps he wasn't the person with

22:18

credibility to have it in 2010. No

22:21

one made a really great case for

22:23

let's do a Keynesian investment program. Let's

22:25

build some of the stuff. And,

22:28

you know, we are where we are with much higher interest

22:30

rates, much more difficult to invest now, and we haven't built

22:32

anything. And just

22:34

to ask you about the work he's been

22:36

doing for Labour in the past couple of

22:39

years, he conducted this major review into devolution.

22:41

It recommended abolishing the House of Lords, replacing

22:43

it with an elected chamber. Not

22:46

clear Labour's going to take him up on much of

22:48

what he's offered there. But he also told you he

22:50

speaks quite regularly to Rachel Reeves. How plugged

22:52

in is he? How much advice are they seeking

22:55

from him? One

22:57

of the reasons I was interested in interviewing him

22:59

was that if you look at what Labour's doing

23:01

now with being super cautious on fiscal policy, it's

23:03

exactly what Brown and Blair did before the 1997

23:06

election. Right. And so it's

23:08

frustrating because it's so cautious. And

23:10

also on the one hand, Gordon Brown is there

23:12

saying, you know, this poverty that he's seeing up

23:14

in fight is reminiscent of the Victorian era. On

23:16

the other hand, he's backing the super cautious strategy

23:18

that Labour has because he wants to be a

23:20

loyal soldier and he doesn't want to be a

23:22

backseat driver. And I do think there's a clash

23:24

there. I think he has a much more radical

23:26

vision of constitutional reform than they do.

23:28

And I think he's also much more concerned

23:30

about Scottish independence than they are. And he

23:33

really sees nationalism as this thing, which isn't

23:35

going to be beaten in the next election,

23:37

but is something that continues to be a

23:39

threat. And he says the SNP

23:41

with all its troubles is down in the mid 30s

23:43

in the polls. But independence

23:45

is still up there very near 50 percent. So

23:47

people are saying the SNP may not be the answer, but

23:49

I still think that Scotland should be independent. So I think

23:51

you're going to see him talk a lot more about that.

23:54

I think he would be a voice

23:56

for a more radical action

23:59

on poverty. I think

24:01

he wants to fall into line. Great,

24:03

that's a perfect moment, George, to turn to

24:06

you and your fantastic lunch with the

24:08

FT, or lunch with a deep state,

24:10

as Liz Trost called it, when you met her in the

24:12

Norfolk pub in recent days. She

24:15

seems to show no such sensitivity about

24:17

wading into the current debate about what

24:20

she thinks Rishi Sunak, her successor, should

24:22

be doing. Not at all. I

24:24

mean, there are prime ministers who leave

24:27

office with dignity and honor

24:29

the office. And

24:31

there are those who frankly don't handle it quite

24:33

so well. I think a lot of people would say that Liz

24:35

Trost falls into the second

24:37

category. She's been everywhere

24:40

this week basically telling Rishi Sunak what to

24:42

do, how he needs to crack down on

24:45

immigration, we should be leaving the

24:47

ECHR, how the UN should be

24:49

wound up. I mean, just an

24:52

extraordinary tirade

24:54

really of ideas, none of which I

24:56

suspect would be entirely popular if ever

24:58

tested with the electorate. But

25:00

the thing that really came across in the lunch I had

25:02

with Liz Trost in this pub in Norfolk was just the

25:05

total lack of contrition, the

25:08

total certainty that everyone

25:10

else to blame. I mean, the closer she

25:12

came to acknowledging any kind of blame was

25:15

saying they haven't communicated the mini budget particularly

25:17

well. And she said elsewhere that

25:19

she's not perfect. And that's about as close

25:21

as it gets, I'm afraid, to any kind

25:24

of contrition. Yeah, I

25:26

was very struck in your lunch that you

25:28

reported she was laughing a lot, didn't seem

25:30

to have engaged in much

25:32

introspection about what went wrong in her

25:35

short 49 days in office. She's obviously

25:38

blamed what she calls the three headed

25:40

Hydra of the Treasury Bank of England

25:42

and Office for Budget Responsibility. I

25:45

mean, was there any way in which you

25:47

were left feeling sorry for her and what

25:49

happened to her and that sort

25:51

of ouster from Downing

25:53

Street after reading her book? I

25:55

Mean, I'll just point to one thing where I thought

25:57

I Was surprised when she said she'd had. Nope.

26:00

And medical care. She'd had to send a had

26:02

diary secretary at midnight to get her cough medicine.

26:04

and while it might sound a little bit trivial

26:06

that you know she's how to. Organize

26:08

her own hair and makeup. He knows the Prime

26:11

Minister. she's obviously going to be photograph films every

26:13

single. Day she needs to have these things and and say.

26:15

Frankie would have put a male pm. It's sort of.

26:17

Ridiculous. She and her husband were trying

26:19

to organize these things. The accommodate shop.

26:22

Surely there should have been more supports.

26:24

The has institutionally in Downing Street. The

26:27

only that was a surprise move. Was. Surprised many

26:29

people who who. Who. Read the book

26:31

and a cigarette the web. You'll that many

26:33

repeat. Read the books in it's entirety. but

26:35

minute does. Strike. At the anyone

26:38

reading that in American politics for example,

26:40

would find the extraordinary, the let lack

26:42

of support and. Space. On

26:44

one level you you can feel sympathy.

26:46

Fool is trespass Think most people just

26:48

think. It. Has to the lack of

26:51

self awareness as extremely for someone who. Got

26:53

to the top of British politics of it.

26:55

You want standouts. Lines in her book was

26:58

two days into a premiership when the

27:00

Queen dies. And peppers thought

27:02

seem to be. Why? Me:

27:04

Why Now you know that maybe some the you

27:06

would think if you were prime minister the time

27:08

but the lack of self awareness or to write

27:11

that down and have it printed in a book

27:13

I find extraordinary one of the same time in

27:15

our seats she says that she was let down

27:17

by. The. Treasury and leads Bank of England

27:19

and the regulators who fails spot the fact

27:21

that the tensions in Stream Uk was like

27:24

a tinderbox ready to go up or the

27:26

same time. In the interview with me she

27:28

said she didn't believe in God rails and

27:30

Sites season for the one hand so saying

27:32

she fancies can see what he wants and

27:34

then and that the Treasury it's the big

27:36

thing where load of incompetence and then blaming

27:38

them for not stop her from doing what

27:40

she wants to do So it's. A

27:42

big sympathy for this trust will be in

27:45

recently short supply Frankly to those reading the

27:47

book or indeed extracts of. The Book. Doesn't.

27:49

Let you also got a chance to ask

27:51

this trusts about her claim that the financial.

27:53

Times is part of the deep

27:56

state secrets. Slightly resign from that position

27:58

in your and he didn't see I

28:00

think she said we want pure capital

28:02

establishment more of what you called a

28:04

flying buttress a coup It that was

28:06

a claims she made during. An interview

28:09

with Steve Bannon, the former White House

28:11

Chief strategist under Donald Trump. or quite

28:13

a controversial character. That whole interview really

28:15

raised a lot of only Brussels and

28:17

since then the truth is really good

28:20

city on her endorsement for Trump has

28:22

achieved. This is what she had to

28:24

say to you about it. In

28:26

a look at what happened in the Middle East. They

28:29

would pay to have invaded Ukraine. Look

28:31

at the belligerence with thing from China.

28:33

look. At the cow time was saying

28:36

since to China from. The

28:38

Us Administration. Say I

28:40

would absolutely to trump overbite and. Full

28:44

that about. Well. If you speak to some

28:46

of her. Former. Allies: They are dismayed

28:48

at the way sees embraced sponsor the

28:50

Republican right in the United States. That

28:52

that the she said. This

28:54

platform with Steve Bannon that the Six

28:57

Pack conference earlier this year. Some of

28:59

the stuff he says, I mean I

29:01

put his. Title of Ten Years

29:03

To Save the West. And

29:06

at the same time she's endorsing

29:08

a presumptive Republican nominee for the

29:10

presidency. Who. Has suggested

29:12

that he might turn is back

29:15

on Nato. has said publicly was

29:17

encouraged publicly. President person to

29:19

Nato member states was don't make

29:21

the the nursery contributions to the

29:23

Nato budget and you wonder how

29:25

that ties with the idea of.

29:28

Saving. The west that the the has

29:30

had some his former supporters thinks he's selling

29:32

perilously close to the wind is have been

29:34

dosing this. Republican from

29:37

Pin. I did.

29:39

I sort of. It's a kind of politics, which. She.

29:42

admits herself, I'm. Won't

29:44

necessarily resonate with the British public at the moment,

29:46

but she thinks the British public. Need

29:49

a bit of education's clutch officer? I said it's

29:51

all these things you're saying they might have caught

29:53

you. Elected to the premise of in This Country

29:55

because it to the selectors was. Below.

29:58

A group of conservative members who. are

30:00

typically older and more right

30:02

wing than the British public more

30:04

generally. What do you think the British public at

30:06

large would have made if you'd ever had the chance

30:08

to present them with this prospectus at an

30:11

election? And she sort of admitted that we

30:13

weren't quite there yet. But you

30:15

can see that she hopes that the

30:17

Conservative party will be exploring

30:19

this electoral terrain if the

30:21

party loses, as many people think

30:24

it will do in the general election, and the

30:26

leadership campaign follows. And she's been at pains during

30:28

a series of interviews this week,

30:30

not to exclude the possibilities, but at some point, she

30:33

can make some sort of a comeback. Miranda.

30:36

Well, what an amazing contrast those

30:38

two interviews are. I was

30:40

struck by Liz Truss's definition of

30:42

patriotism, George, being to finally

30:44

abandon her crazy ideas when the

30:47

country was threatened with a

30:49

guilt crisis, versus

30:51

Gordon Brown's patriotism, going back

30:53

to his former constituency and trying

30:55

to help people on

30:57

the ground. But I think the problem with

31:00

the whole Truss episode, because we can't really

31:02

call it an era, I guess, is

31:06

that she's an incredibly bad example

31:08

of challenging some things that probably

31:10

do need to be challenged, not

31:12

in the way that she did.

31:15

Henry talking about the Gordon Brown

31:18

definition of austerity, your challenge to him on

31:20

what he would have done had he survived

31:22

the 2010 election. The incoming potential Labour

31:26

government now is going to have to think

31:28

about this idea of the Treasury brain, and

31:31

the fact that actually the way we're

31:33

governed and the bias towards

31:35

the status quo in working out

31:38

things to do with the economy and public spending,

31:40

there is a bias there. And Chris Giles,

31:44

our economics editor, actually wrote a brilliant

31:46

column saying the real problem with the

31:49

Truss episode is the way that it's

31:51

completely discredited all sorts of challenges to

31:53

the established way of doing

31:55

things. And I think that's something that

31:57

is worth pondering as well. also

32:00

think, you know, in Georgia's interview with Liz

32:02

Truss, it is extraordinary her, particularly having argued

32:04

for Remain at the time in the 2016

32:07

referendum to now say that the thing that's

32:09

gone wrong since the Brexit referendum is that

32:11

we haven't turned into Singapore on steroids, as

32:13

she puts it in her in her interview

32:16

with you. Stephen. Yeah,

32:18

although I mean, the interesting thing is that one

32:20

of the reasons why Liz Truss

32:22

was reluctant to campaign for leave is she thought

32:24

it would prove a huge distraction

32:27

from reforming in her mind, moving

32:29

the country to the right. And actually, if you look

32:31

at the way that the size of the British state

32:33

has increased and the drift of

32:35

British politics since then, that is

32:37

one where she was right. I think the really interesting

32:39

thing about these two terrific interviews isn't broadly

32:42

speaking, if you're a former Prime Minister, you're a

32:44

former Prime Minister for something's gone wrong. And what

32:46

you do to rehabilitate yourself is

32:48

you focus on the things you did

32:50

well. So if you're Gordon Brown, that

32:52

gives you helping navigate through the global

32:54

financial crisis and reducing poverty while as

32:56

Chancellor and actually, because of the way

32:59

the automatic stabilizers of tax credits work, job

33:01

obviously has continued for even during the

33:04

crisis from late 10. And

33:06

you know, just so in

33:09

some ways Theresa May talking about ending modern

33:11

slavery, you know, telling you they're talking about

33:13

public service reform, the difficulty of your Liz

33:15

Truss is that your central

33:18

success as Prime Ministers making the

33:20

Conservative Party's life much worse. And

33:22

in many ways, she's returning to

33:25

that theme in her interventions

33:27

this week. George

33:29

struck me as a really interesting moment of

33:31

Prime Minister's questions this week, where Rishi

33:34

Sunak really went out of his way to

33:36

disown trust and put some distance between

33:38

them. And he made the

33:40

point that, you know, at the time when he

33:42

was running against her for the leadership in the

33:44

summer of 2022, he'd as he put

33:46

it had the stomach to say her policies

33:49

were wrong. And he contrasted that with Starmer,

33:51

who he sort of said was shifty in

33:53

a try to put, you know, Corbyn in

33:55

number 10, even though, you know, his

33:57

ambivalence towards NATO and Trident. and

34:00

all the problems in labour with anti-Semitism

34:02

during Corbyn's reign had prevailed.

34:04

Is that something that you think will

34:07

get some sort of play during the election that

34:09

people, the voters, will think, well, actually, yeah, Rishi

34:11

Sunak did stand up for what he believed in

34:13

and said she was wrong, whereas Stalmer didn't take

34:15

on Jeremy Corbyn when he was leader. Well, I

34:18

thought it was a nice try. And I thought

34:20

Rishi Sunak did as well as he possibly could

34:22

have done in that round of Prime Minister's Question

34:24

Time, given the amount of this trust ammunition at

34:26

Kia Stalmer's disposal. I don't know.

34:28

I don't think, I mean, for a long time,

34:31

Rishi Sunak's been trying to pin Kia Stalmer as

34:33

someone who was an apologist for Jeremy Corbyn and

34:35

a facilitator of Jeremy Corbyn. I'm not sure it's

34:37

really cut through, whereas the

34:39

polls do suggest very strongly indeed

34:42

that the moment the public finally lost trust

34:44

and faith in the Conservative Party was during

34:46

those two months in the autumn of 2022

34:48

when this trust was Prime Minister. You can

34:50

see it in all of

34:52

the tracker polls. The party's never

34:54

recovered. So I think this

34:57

trust will always be more of an older trust

34:59

around the neck of Rishi Sunak than Jeremy Corbyn

35:01

will be around the neck of Kia Stalmer. Well,

35:04

George and Henry, thank you so much for

35:06

joining. I'll put both the interviews in the

35:09

show notes. And I think they really are

35:11

examples of the best of FT writing, as

35:13

well as being very insightful about these two

35:16

characters. Finally,

35:22

let's talk about political fix, stock fix

35:24

this week. Henry, who are you buying

35:26

or selling? I can't

35:28

buy any Conservative MPs because I think they

35:31

would fail my fund's ESG criteria,

35:33

given some of the stories I've read. But

35:35

I think I would buy climate action. I

35:37

mean, it looks really miserable out there. Scotland

35:39

abandoned its climate targets. I think if you

35:41

believe in green action, you think,

35:43

my goodness, everyone just giving up. But I think

35:45

there will come a time when these

35:48

policies are seen as almost

35:50

inevitable that we have to do much more. It

35:52

could be a very hot summer. People have already

35:54

had a very wet winter. And I think just

35:56

the reality of the climate change is going to

35:58

keep these issues on the agenda. George,

36:00

I'm going to sell

36:03

Robert Genrich, the former cabinet

36:05

minister, former immigration minister, on

36:07

someone who this week has been desperately trying

36:10

to appeal to the right wing

36:12

of the Conservative Party, coming out

36:14

in support of Donald Trump,

36:17

the President of the United States, saying

36:19

he used to completely change his mind on Brexit and

36:21

what a great idea it was having supported remain. To

36:24

be honest, it all seems to me a little

36:26

bit desperate, and I don't think it's convincing the

36:28

people on the right who regard him as a

36:30

bit of a Johnny-come-lately to the party. So

36:33

I think it's a bit shallow and a bit desperate, and

36:35

I don't think it's going to work. Stephen,

36:37

who are you buying or selling? I really wanted to

36:39

be the one who wowed the crap with the Genrich thing.

36:43

I'm also going to sell Robert Genrich. I was

36:45

really struck. I had just

36:47

come from a lunch with a contact in

36:51

the Lords, and as I was walking

36:53

back, I bumped into three separate Conservative

36:55

MPs who all made essentially the

36:57

same joke at Robert Genrich's approach. And it clearly wasn't

36:59

that this was a joke and had been going round.

37:02

It was precisely as George

37:04

says, right? He's just regarded

37:06

as a kind of Johnny-come-lately,

37:10

someone who's kind of got a big list of what

37:12

are the things I say to make the right of

37:14

the party like me.

37:17

This was a pretty good cross-section of the

37:19

whole of the parliamentary party. Maybe Robert Genrich's

37:21

transformation is sincere. I am

37:24

dubious, but more importantly, so as far

37:26

as I can tell, as every other

37:28

member of a Conservative parliamentary party not

37:30

called Robert Genrich, I think he's really

37:32

done himself quite a lot of damage

37:35

this week. That's Genrich well

37:37

and truly trashed. Miranda? Well,

37:40

I'm also selling this week, but I'm

37:42

selling with some regret, Andy Street, the

37:45

Conservative mayor of the West Midlands region,

37:48

because on May 2nd, as well

37:50

as the local elections, there are

37:52

these huge mayoralties up for election.

37:55

And Andy Street is in

37:57

considerable amount of trouble trying to

37:59

hold on. there. And

38:01

I say with regret because we

38:04

are always bemoaning as a nation

38:06

the dearth of people going into

38:08

politics with serious experience

38:11

of business and the

38:13

outside world. Having run John Lewis,

38:15

his enormous successful high

38:17

street retailer, a mutual kind of

38:19

a symbol of the things that

38:21

are good about Britain, British business

38:23

in a way. He's in serious trouble

38:26

there. He had a huge falling out

38:28

with Rishi Sunak when Sunak cancelled the

38:30

northern leg of HS2 at the Toypari

38:33

conference. May well have seriously considered actually

38:35

resigning from the party. He could have

38:37

then stood, of course, as an independent

38:39

candidate for the mail. But there he

38:42

is with the Tory brand stuck

38:44

on him on May the 2nd and could come

38:46

a cropper. So it's a sell with regret. And

38:49

what about you, Lucy? I'm

38:51

going to sell the junk stock

38:53

of Mark Menzies. I feel the

38:56

podcast can't conclude without me mentioning

38:58

this absolutely outlandish story in The

39:00

Times suggesting that

39:02

he called a long standing

39:04

constituency aide, a 78 year

39:06

old lady at 3.15am in

39:09

the morning saying that he

39:11

was beggars belief being

39:13

held captive by bad people and that

39:15

it was a matter of life or

39:17

death that she hand over £5,000 from

39:20

his campaign funds, money

39:22

given by local supporters for,

39:24

you know, legitimate Tory campaigning

39:26

activity. It gets stranger

39:28

still in the morning. Another constituency manager agreed

39:30

to cash in her ISA to give him

39:33

the money which the demand had by that

39:35

stage risen to £6,500 and luckily this one

39:37

was later reimbursed

39:41

but again from campaign funds. Mark Menzies disputes

39:43

his allegations. I'm sure he has a perfectly

39:45

good explanation. I mean, it sounds to me

39:48

a normal day at the office. The

39:51

Conservative Party has stripped him of the whip while

39:54

it's investigating. He's also been suspended

39:56

as a government trade envoy to sweetest

40:00

South American nations but it is just

40:02

the most eye-popping story. It's got that

40:04

wonderful kind of fall of the Aussies

40:06

on Regime air about it, this story

40:08

that hasn't let me just keep coming.

40:11

This certainly do. That's

40:15

it for this episode of the FT's Political

40:17

Fix. I've put links to subjects

40:19

discussed in the episode in the show notes. Do

40:22

check them out. There are two calls we've made

40:24

free for Political Fix listeners. There's

40:26

also a link there to Stephen Bush's

40:28

award-winning Inside Politics newsletter. You'll get 30

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days free. And don't forget

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to subscribe to the show. Plus, do leave

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have time. It really helps us spread

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the word. Political Fix

40:41

was presented by me, Lucy Fisher, and

40:43

produced by Audrey Tinlin with help from

40:45

Leah Quinn. Manuela Seragosa

40:47

is the executive producer, original

40:50

music and sound engineering by Breen

40:52

Turner. Cheryl Brumley is the

40:54

FT's global head of audio. We'll

40:57

meet again here next week.