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iHeartRadio presents Conversations,

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a weekly discussion with the biggest names and influencers

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in podcasting. Wanta will learn the secret

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psycho rituals scrubstars Zach Braff

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Fake Doctor's Real Friends taping, how

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Vice News parachutes into war zones

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to rescue journalists from life threatening

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Michael Key, and Blumhouse believe three D

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Whether you're a newbie trying to break.

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Into the podcast game or an exec trying

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0:46

Welcome to the iHeart podcast Speaker

0:48

series. I Am not Will Pearson,

0:51

I am in Stoneholly Fry. I host

0:53

Stuff you mist in History Class and Criminalia

0:56

and each week, as you know, this series is

0:58

about having a conversation with creator

1:00

and we'll talk about podcasts and podcasting.

1:03

And today I am lucky enough to

1:05

get to spend time with Sam Fragoso, whose

1:08

podcast Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso

1:10

features an array of startlingly

1:14

famous and interesting guests having

1:17

very intimate conversations which Sam is

1:19

really good at. A listening. So Sam, thank you

1:21

so much for joining me today.

1:22

What an intro. Thank you.

1:26

Without trying to sound pejorative in anyway,

1:28

you are a whipper snapper. You

1:31

are very young to have the career that you've

1:33

had and how impressive

1:35

it is, and I

1:37

would love for you to just do kind of the brief

1:39

run through of your short brought

1:41

impressive trajectory from creative

1:43

director at the Roxy Theater, which I heard

1:46

you tell the long form podcast you were bad at,

1:48

through print journalism and then into

1:51

podcasting.

1:52

I wasn't that bad. I wasn't that

1:54

good either, but.

1:57

I was basically to

2:00

bring a full Pushkin glaud

2:02

welding into it.

2:04

The Roxy.

2:07

Time, where I was a credit director was kind of like a Beatles

2:09

and Hamburg thing where I

2:11

had to do a lot of the only thing I was good at.

2:13

I'll say I was doing a lot of on stage

2:16

Q and as, and I had to do I

2:18

don't know, somewhere between like five and seven a

2:20

week, which is just an insane

2:22

amount of time to spend in front

2:25

of an audience trying to entertain

2:27

them asking questions. So then from

2:29

there I kind of pivoted into podcasting.

2:32

I had done some magazine journalism

2:35

before that, a little bit after where

2:37

I'd done interviews for Vanity Fair and

2:40

Vice and MPR. So it's just kind of

2:43

a natural dovetailing of interests.

2:45

You did something that I love because I

2:47

always encourage people to do this, which is, you

2:50

shouldn't wait for someone

2:52

to give you permission or offer you a deal

2:54

to start a podcast. You started Talk

2:56

Easy on your own, on your

2:58

personal credit card, with

3:01

no real safety net to it. Are

3:04

you a risk taker by nature? Or was that just

3:06

the one trajectory you felt like you had to follow.

3:08

I would say the bank companies would say yes

3:10

for sure, based

3:14

on the statements.

3:15

Yeah, I think definitely. It's

3:17

weird.

3:18

You know, the credit cards, they don't call them like, Wow, we're

3:20

really excited about your fledgling podcast.

3:22

We'll let you. We'll let you pay that

3:24

off and do time.

3:26

Wants some more equipment, No problem, big.

3:28

Yes, yes, go ahead and get that scarlet

3:31

and the road microphone.

3:33

Yeah. I guess so.

3:35

I don't know I thought about it like that

3:37

before, but I think I felt like I had enough

3:39

validation in other arenas like

3:42

the roxy, like writing for those magazines

3:44

and stuff, and enough online

3:46

response that felt encouraging, that

3:49

it felt like it was a risk, but

3:51

one built on a

3:54

foundation that I could understand that I could like

3:56

grow something from.

3:58

It wasn't like I'd.

3:59

Never done an interview for one, I

4:01

just take got the MX

4:04

and see what happens.

4:05

We've heard that podcast, not yours, but we've

4:07

heard those podcasts.

4:08

I'm sure.

4:09

I'm sure they have, and I hope they've worked out, just

4:11

simply from an economic point of view.

4:14

You also, my understanding is you almost

4:16

ended your podcast during the pandemic, but

4:19

you didn't, thankfully. What

4:22

was that moment of decision like and how did it

4:24

end up changing kind of the tone

4:26

of things for you?

4:27

I'm sure like many people listening the

4:30

when the pandemic happened, I think I felt

4:33

I just thought, what is

4:36

it really useful for anyone to

4:38

hear an interview with

4:41

like an actor? No no offense to actors

4:43

or filmmakers, But it just felt not

4:46

purposeful. It didn't feel when

4:49

when the world was crumbling. I wasn't like, yeah, make

4:51

sure we do an episode

4:54

with Dan Levy about Shit's Creek, like that

4:56

didn't seem essential. Although

4:59

I did been Shit's creat turning the pandemic

5:02

me too, Yeah, like most people. So

5:05

I don't know why that arithmetic didn't work

5:07

out, But that moment was

5:09

I think a way of the

5:12

show opening the door it

5:14

stores up to people that

5:16

weren't only in the entertainment space. So

5:18

like we had more writers on we had

5:21

I think at the time, better or Rourke and Numb

5:23

Chomsky and

5:26

Elizabeth Gilbert I think came on around that time,

5:29

just just opening up the aperture

5:31

a little bit in a way that we should have done in

5:34

retrospect way earlier. And

5:36

I'm so glad that we did, because since then, I

5:39

do think the show is unique in its wide

5:42

variety of guests and.

5:43

Interest Speaking of your wide variety

5:45

of guests and interests, everyone who interviews

5:47

you always marvels at the guests that you

5:49

get, and because you do get really

5:51

amazing people, I feel like I have

5:53

to ask you about that. But I have two questions actually,

5:56

So the first is obviously how do you get

5:58

such amazing guests? Which is an interesting question, But

6:00

what I really want to know is what is

6:02

your actual hit rate? Like what is your ratio

6:04

of nose to yes is? And I

6:06

know you're super persistent, but do you ever just give

6:09

up and we're like, that person's never coming, we should

6:11

stop wasting that energy.

6:12

I've never given up. Some people

6:14

have passed away by the time

6:17

we try to get them again and again and again.

6:18

That has happened.

6:19

That's very tragic, Like Christopher

6:21

Palmer was someone I wanted to have on. So I

6:23

think, short of death, I

6:25

don't think we've ever given up, which is

6:27

a bleak, hopefully funny answer to people

6:30

listening.

6:30

And we have an.

6:32

Excel sheet that says,

6:34

like, we asked this person six

6:36

months ago.

6:37

It's kind of time.

6:37

It's sort of like a doctor your annual

6:40

check in, making sure you're okay.

6:42

Do you want to do this? I think the hit rate,

6:45

I mean we've received three nots this morning,

6:47

so I think that tells you the story.

6:50

But I mean we're also pitched

6:52

an abundance of people, so

6:55

I think we spend a lot of time saying no for

6:57

the most part at this point, which

6:59

was not true in the I mean that

7:01

was like, that's only recently, you're in the last two or three

7:03

years. But we don't get that many

7:06

know's anymore. I think it's a lot of not

7:08

right now, which is much

7:10

better than please stop emailing us,

7:13

and for that we are grateful.

7:15

That's interesting that you mentioned that. Now

7:18

you know you have this this reversal

7:20

where people are pitching you, how

7:22

do you balance that because I know you're super

7:24

passionate about your work and you're going after people

7:27

you think are interesting. So when it's

7:29

coming, the flow is happening in the other

7:31

direction. How do

7:33

you sort those out to make sure the

7:35

people that you are saying yes to feel exactly

7:37

right in the tone of your show and

7:39

the level of interest and excitement

7:42

that you and your team need to have for

7:44

it, versus the people that you have

7:46

to kind of gently go like, this is not a good fit.

7:48

I think the thing you said it's about excitement.

7:51

Just because it wasn't our idea and it was a publicist

7:53

idea doesn't mean that we're not like on principal

7:55

getaway, you know, we have a kind of like internal

7:59

rubric, and it's really is

8:01

the person's life story interesting?

8:03

Have they gone through something recently or

8:06

have they made work about something

8:08

that is personal to their life

8:10

that feels connective both

8:12

to the art that they're putting into the world and

8:15

to the lives that they're leading, which usually

8:17

makes an interesting podcast. Have they done a

8:19

lot of varied and interesting work,

8:21

Like, we don't have a lot of people

8:24

under the age of twenty five for that

8:26

reason. And it's not because we're against

8:29

gen Z. It's just oftentimes

8:31

I don't think the format is conducive

8:34

to people under.

8:35

Like twenty five. And we've had

8:38

exceptions.

8:38

The Lord came on and was great, and

8:41

we have a few folks coming on this year that

8:44

are under twenty five that are incredibly

8:46

talented musicians and writers. It's

8:48

not binding, but yeah, I think it's it's

8:50

really though, above fame,

8:53

because people really press this a lot. Fame

8:56

is not enough, I think, and I think

8:58

fame is not enough for the listener. Frankly, it

9:00

may get them in the room and in

9:02

the door, but it will not keep them there if

9:04

they're not interesting and willing to go to a place

9:07

conversationally that is interesting. So

9:09

that's kind of the barometer, you know, the letmus

9:12

Desk would put.

9:13

I have to chuckle a little because per your

9:15

rules, you've been doing this

9:17

for all since

9:20

twenty sixteen, you would not have been old

9:22

or interesting enough to be on your own show initially.

9:25

Yeah, which is why I never did an interview with myself.

9:29

You also mentioned in several interviews,

9:32

the most recent one I listened to was the

9:34

one you did with Max Linsky for long

9:36

Form, that you plan everything

9:39

then you're in your interviews. You have

9:41

a roadmap laid out and you're ready to deviate

9:43

from it if you want to as conversation flows.

9:46

And I know that takes a ton of prep and

9:48

I feel like I would be dropping the ball if

9:50

I did not ask you what that prep process

9:52

is. Like, where do you start digging in on

9:55

somebody? That sounds more aggressive

9:57

than I'm meant it to. Yeah, but investigating

9:59

like you know their story.

10:01

Yeah, that sounds like I'm

10:03

like solving the zodiac mercer. I

10:07

have a big board and the string moving

10:09

around.

10:10

I don't know.

10:11

I mean, it's it is an intensive

10:13

process, and I

10:16

start with I mean, I kind of go chronologically

10:19

if I can, if we have the time to do that,

10:21

and just go from the earliest press

10:23

clippings that we can find

10:26

and then start building what is basically

10:29

this is your life document that's

10:32

called the brief. And it's

10:34

like if anything that basically that

10:36

has been public record, we have it written

10:39

down in the chronology of their

10:42

respective lives, and then from there,

10:44

once once the bronze stroke is covered, I

10:46

think we start going what's the kind

10:48

of three act structure of an episode. It's

10:51

usually the most recent work starts at the top.

10:53

Second act is is life story,

10:56

what are the sort of formative moments

10:58

that have shaped them, have brought

11:00

them to this place?

11:02

And then the third act is usually their own.

11:04

Personal philosophies that have God

11:06

in both their life and their work, or are speaking to

11:08

a more social political

11:10

moment that is worth kind of covering

11:13

in both broad and specific strokes.

11:32

This all evidence is pretty clearly that your

11:35

work ethic is legit. Like you

11:37

clearly put in the time, this isn't something

11:40

you're the least bit kambal you're about. Have

11:42

you always been like that? Because

11:44

not everybody has that? Is that natural?

11:46

Or did you have to train your own work

11:49

discipline?

11:49

I don't know anyone who hasn't had to

11:51

train their own discipline or

11:54

kind of create that for themselves.

11:55

I don't know.

11:55

I don't think you're born and you're like, yep,

11:58

there's a hard worker there.

12:00

I don't.

12:01

I mean, maybe I think parents

12:03

would like to think that, yeah, But I don't

12:06

know you talk to my eighth grade English jaser. I think

12:08

she would have said that Sam's blacked

12:10

off a little bit.

12:12

But yeah, I've always taken it

12:14

seriously.

12:14

I've taken it seriously because there's a lot

12:16

of and this is very evident to everyone

12:19

on this zoom and anyone listening to this.

12:21

There's just a lot of podcasts.

12:23

There's a lot Someone argue too

12:25

many podcasts, and so I

12:28

just don't want to waste people's time.

12:30

I'm not interested in it.

12:31

So if we're gonna put something out every week, I feel

12:34

the responsibility and a commitment to the listener

12:37

to make something that is compelling and considered

12:40

and something that's that they're gonna be able

12:42

to walk away from and like hold

12:44

throughout their week in a way that is meaningful

12:48

and interesting. And I'm

12:50

not denying like I listen to

12:52

a lot of basketball podcasts where they it's

12:55

just like three Dudes.

12:56

I love those shows too. This is not what

12:58

I'm good at.

13:00

I think the work ethic is there, and I

13:02

also this is maybe more important when

13:04

it comes to the guests, because I don't

13:06

know the guests. Usually I always

13:09

think like, you'll never get this chance

13:12

at the first at bat again, and

13:14

I take that seriously. I think, well,

13:16

if we have this moment in time, you should

13:19

put everything into it that you can, knowing

13:21

like it may not happen again. I

13:23

mean, it certainly won't happen again for the first time, and

13:26

I think that is important. So I do

13:28

consciously go into it with those intentions

13:31

and that intentionality.

13:33

So we've established you're a high achiever, but

13:35

you also have such a relaxed vibe

13:37

on the mic, and I'm I

13:39

want to talk a little bit about how that prep and research

13:43

enables you to be in that kind of relaxed

13:45

chill space. One, there's a part of me

13:47

that I will confess wonders like it's sam a little

13:49

bit of a control freak. And two,

13:51

though, do you ever find obviously,

13:56

do you ever find anxiety creeping in

13:58

when things start to go off the rails or head?

14:00

Have you prepped so much that you're like,

14:02

I know every tributary.

14:03

I would say you could end the sentence

14:06

with, have you ever let anxiety creep

14:08

in like every in all

14:10

facets?

14:11

The answer is a resounding yes. In

14:13

twenty twenty four, after the pandemic,

14:16

who doesn't have anxiety? I

14:18

want to find that person. It's a matter of what

14:20

you do with it. Does it

14:22

paralyze you, does it stype for you?

14:23

I mean that's one way, or

14:25

do you kind of hold it and move through and

14:28

with it. And I think the research process

14:31

is so intense, it is

14:33

so demanding that by the time I'm

14:35

in the room, it is actually

14:38

very liberating to go if

14:41

it's not working out with the guests,

14:43

I have a plan. So having

14:46

a plan allows you to discard the plan

14:48

and to live in the moment of that

14:51

interaction because you always have a backup.

14:54

It's like a safety valve. I mean it's that

14:56

at least that's how I view it. So it is liberating

14:59

in that way. And the other

15:01

part of your question, yes, controlling, I mean

15:03

obviously yeah.

15:05

I wouldn't say though obviously because you're being

15:08

prepared and being.

15:10

Long as a long

15:12

hair comment.

15:13

No, not

15:16

even a little bit. Following

15:19

up on that, though, there's another anxiety thing

15:21

I want to ask you about. Sorry to be so anxiousness

15:24

focused.

15:26

I didn't go to therapy this week, so this is good.

15:27

Great, we got you. I

15:31

heard you tell someone that you get

15:34

super anxious on the

15:36

rare occasions when you ask someone for a

15:38

favor, but that if someone asks

15:40

you for a favor, if it's something you believe in or you

15:42

think it's a good idea, like you will go

15:44

full bore helping them out. I

15:47

see you, Sam Fragoso, because I have the same dynamic

15:49

and I know what causes it in me, But I'm curious

15:51

what causes it in you. Like, what's it play there

15:54

where you're like, I don't like to do it, but I'm

15:56

great with other people doing it.

15:57

To me, it would have been really great if you ended up

15:59

being like, and I have a favor to ask of you,

16:06

you know, whatever you want, whatever you want.

16:08

Yeah, I mean I think asking for a favor, I'm

16:11

not sure in regards as a podcast.

16:13

I think you're talking about like geting guests and stuff. I

16:15

probably said that, Yeah, I.

16:17

Mean, I just don't like to bother people.

16:20

And also there's a part

16:22

of me that goes like, I've

16:24

done fournered episodes.

16:26

We're nearing eight years here.

16:28

I really shouldn't need a

16:30

favor to get an actor on a new

16:33

Hulu show, you know, Like I feel like I could

16:35

probably figure that out, But there

16:37

are occasions, you know, and like

16:40

I'm trying to think of one, but like a Tom Hanks

16:42

who came on or no, I think

16:44

that was actually on our own record. But there are

16:46

occasions where I do ask for

16:48

help, and yeah, it gives.

16:49

Me anxiety, I think.

16:50

I think in general, people

16:53

asking for help is not an easy thing. People

16:55

helping others when called upon,

16:58

if you have a kind of basic beating

17:01

heart, I think is an easy thing to do if

17:03

you believe in them, which I try to help

17:05

and pay it forward. Yeah, so many people

17:07

help me starting out, so I

17:10

think you'd be silly to not pay that forward.

17:12

I mean, are you going to get Dolly's fact number

17:14

eventually? Is the question? You

17:19

also have mentioned in interviews that your follow

17:22

up questions are a way to get

17:24

people to tell their deeper story more

17:26

so than they're probably used to, especially if they're on

17:28

like a press junket or something. Have you ever

17:31

had a moment in conversation where the

17:33

result of that approach took you by surprise

17:35

or felt revelatory for you,

17:37

where you were like, WHOA, I did not see this coming

17:40

at all.

17:40

Yes, absolutely happened probably

17:42

one out of every three times. I mean, I could think of last

17:44

year we did an episode

17:46

of Padma Lakshmi. You know, I

17:49

guess have a really strange way if something

17:51

is there, if there's something

17:53

that's been nagging them, it's

17:56

like your friend, you don't going out the differently friends

17:59

if there's one thing just right

18:01

below the surface that they

18:03

have been thinking about throughout the day.

18:05

Guests are not totally dissimilar.

18:07

If you can hear them and listen to them

18:09

that they're really just waiting for you to go

18:12

what is it that's going on and

18:15

why is it bothering you? And it's the

18:17

job of the host to hold that and

18:19

to give space for it. So it

18:21

happens all the time. And that is

18:23

why like not reading

18:26

my outline word for word

18:28

is important, because the outline

18:31

is what you have written. It's the story you

18:33

are trying to tell. The job

18:35

of our show is to tell a story collectively

18:39

in collaboration with the guests,

18:41

and so the outline is a base and what someone

18:44

brings to the room is what ultimately

18:46

becomes of the story that we're telling together. So

18:49

that's why the follow up question

18:52

is imperative because it's very

18:54

easy to go, Okay, they've said

18:56

this, I got number seven on the

18:59

outline check I got it. I

19:01

gotta get through this.

19:02

I really I have to go watch the Laker game at

19:04

five o'clock. I need to move on.

19:07

And I understand that, but

19:09

it's a disservice, I think to the guest and to the

19:12

listener if you don't try

19:14

to hold whatever it is they're feeling,

19:16

which is often revealed in the follow up question.

19:19

When you're building that collaborative narrative, do

19:21

you get emotionally caught up in

19:23

those stories or do you are you able to

19:25

maintain kind of the journalistic

19:28

objectiveness to it.

19:29

The journalist part is

19:31

all the work I have done to get us

19:33

into the room. It is

19:35

the asking of them to come on. It

19:37

is the hours and hours and hours of research. It

19:40

is the hours and hours of shaping an outline.

19:43

It is the hours and hours of thinking about their life

19:45

in ways that are journalistic in nature.

19:47

To be in the room with them, though, especially

19:50

in those moments, in the follow up moments. I

19:52

don't know what you want to call it, but I think it's just basically

19:54

being a human. That is what I'm there to do.

19:56

Now, there are some people probably hearing

19:58

that and going like, oh, the New York Times

20:01

wouldn't do that.

20:01

Well, that's great there. We already

20:04

have the New York Times.

20:06

Great good for them, and I love

20:08

the New York Times.

20:09

And I have a lot of journalist friends who wouldn't

20:11

cross the line that I probably do cross, which

20:13

is crying in an interview. I'm

20:16

not gonna sit there and go, you know, I'm

20:18

feeling something deeply emotionally, but

20:20

my journalistic ethics and my Jay School

20:23

training has said that I cannot cry

20:25

in this moment. I am not the

20:28

character in American Psycho. I'm going to feel

20:30

something and I'm going to be moved

20:32

by it, but I don't fake cry like

20:34

William Hurton broadcast news like. I'm

20:38

not like here, give me take two at

20:40

the crying right. If I feel it,

20:43

I feel it, I'm going to give.

20:44

In to it.

20:44

But it's my job to hold both. It's my job

20:47

to be a human and it's my job to be a journalist. And

20:49

I think I can walk and chew gum at

20:52

the same time, and so that's the job.

20:54

One of the things that has struck me in listening

20:56

to other interviews that you've done is that

20:58

when you talk about your podcast asked and

21:00

you talk about how deeply you love it. The

21:03

language that you use is

21:06

so parallel to the way people talk

21:08

about their relationships, and

21:11

just as a relationship will evolve, so

21:14

does work. So well, Obviously, these

21:16

kinds of things aren't always predictable. What

21:18

are some of the visions that you have for

21:20

the future evolution of talk?

21:22

Easy? Am I gonna like break up

21:24

with the show or something? Or yeah?

21:27

Is this like?

21:27

Is this like a question about marriage or

21:29

matrimony?

21:30

I don't know, it's about your marriage to your work?

21:33

Yeah, well, you know, I come from a

21:35

many times divorced household, so that wouldn't be a

21:37

good omen. But I don't know.

21:38

I think it's

21:41

a good question. I love doing it and

21:43

it is the great joy of my life

21:46

to do it, and I think

21:48

the moment it no longer.

21:50

Like a relationship serves me, I

21:52

would probably not do it. I

21:54

don't predict or forecast that, and

21:57

I don't see that in the near future. But

21:59

yeah, yeah, I think so long as it's interesting to

22:02

me and to the listener, I will

22:04

keep doing it. It is kind of regenerative,

22:07

and it does give live to me and

22:09

gives meeting.

22:10

So I don't know.

22:11

I hadn't thought about that the question, I'd

22:14

say, like, I'm in it.

22:15

For the long haul.

22:16

To answer your committed I thought that I

22:19

haven't bought a ring if that's

22:21

what you're asking, but I

22:25

am committed to the process.

22:27

Just make it the weirdest way to talk about your work.

22:29

We possibly can't you.

22:31

I'm I'm just rolling with you.

22:33

Doesn't mean I'm I'm taking full full responsibility

22:36

for the oddity of that one. But Sam,

22:38

I am so incredibly grateful that

22:40

you've spent this time with me today. For

22:43

any of our listeners, Sam's podcast,

22:45

once again is Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso.

22:48

New episodes drop on Sunday mornings. I

22:50

know Sam isn't listening to them too, because that's his

22:52

basketball day. We're

22:55

going to be back next week with

22:57

more people who are shaping the world of podcasts.

23:00

So thank you so much, Sam, Thank

23:02

you