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0:46

Hello and welcome back to the iHeart Podcast Speaker

0:49

series. I'm Will Pearson, President of iHeart

0:51

Podcast. One of my favorite conversations

0:53

every week when we get a chance to chat with

0:55

one or more of our creators to talk about

0:58

their podcast. Hear what they're up to,

1:00

where they see the industry going, and today

1:02

feels like a very fitting conversation. We've

1:04

been having a lot of conversations around here

1:06

around budgets and around how

1:08

we all spend and how we all think about

1:11

money, and it's something that sometimes we're afraid

1:13

to talk about, but it's the kind of thing that's really

1:15

important to talk about.

1:16

And to be smart with our money. And we have.

1:19

Two fantastic hosts that are

1:21

here to talk about their show, Frugal Friends.

1:23

It's a really fun approach to

1:25

talking about these kinds of topics.

1:27

It doesn't have to always be super stressful,

1:30

and it can be the kind of thing where you can just have

1:32

a good casual conversation about

1:34

it. Jen and Jill are the best

1:36

at this. So thanks for joining us today.

1:38

How are you guys doing?

1:39

Thanks so much for having us Will and that

1:41

amazing intro. We do love to say.

1:43

If it's not fun, it's not Frugal Friends.

1:46

So you've got it, you understand.

1:48

Yeah, we're excited to be here.

1:50

Well, thank you.

1:51

So I actually I was listening to

1:53

your latest episode and my

1:55

wife is going to be excited because my wife

1:57

is a big fan of the Enneagram system

2:00

and many of her friends, as I'm sure you're hearing

2:02

from a lot of them, because she's

2:04

into the whole personality thing

2:07

and learning how that applies

2:09

to how we spend money or save money

2:11

or think about money was pretty interesting. So

2:13

maybe we'll come back to that in a second, But it

2:15

was definitely fun to hear that episode and I sent

2:17

it to her, But would love to go back to the beginning.

2:20

First of all, how the two of you met, How

2:22

the two of you decided to start

2:24

making frugal friends. Tell us how that

2:26

came about.

2:27

Back in twenty seventeen,

2:29

my husband and I were in

2:32

the middle or near the tail end probably

2:34

of paying off our student loans, so

2:36

we ended up paying off seventy eight thousand

2:39

dollars of debt in two years, which

2:42

was very difficult, and I have mixed

2:44

feelings about recommending how we did

2:46

it, but I talk a lot about that on the show,

2:48

saying that you can get the same results without putting yourself

2:51

through what I put myself through. But in that

2:53

season, I was

2:55

on Facebook and saw that this

2:58

guy Eric, who I'd met at a party one and

3:00

then never talked to you again for like seven years,

3:03

was in town with his wife on a road

3:05

trip and wanted to see if anybody wanted

3:07

to hang out, and knowing

3:09

that he did not mean me because he did not remember

3:12

who I was, but I was like, my

3:14

friends and I are going out, and

3:17

you guys are welcome to join us at

3:19

this spar at sunset. They give free

3:21

shots at sunset, which is why we were there.

3:23

I remembered it being free champagne, but it wasn't

3:25

that classic.

3:26

It was not that classy

3:29

champagne.

3:30

Yeah, yeah, tiny fruity little

3:32

champagnes. And we met and we hit it

3:34

off very fast, talking about

3:36

our journey. And they were living

3:39

in an RV at the time, doing that RV

3:41

lifestyle before it was cool to save

3:43

money for Jill's master's program. So we just

3:46

instantly connected. And I was blogging

3:48

about personal finance, but Jill was a social

3:51

worker and she had like no personal finance

3:53

interests at.

3:54

All, just living the life of right,

3:57

paying attention to finances.

3:58

So a year later, Eric,

4:00

her husband, wanted to get into producing

4:03

podcasts because as a longtime music

4:05

producer, he saw that's really where a lot

4:07

of audio was going. So we decided

4:10

we would just get him something in his portfolio,

4:14

and over three hundred episodes later,

4:16

we've never missed a week.

4:18

That is unbelievable.

4:19

Now, you guys have such a rhythm to it and

4:21

a great rapport with each other.

4:23

Had either of you either made.

4:25

A podcast before or been in front

4:27

of the mic at all for other projects, or is

4:29

this a completely new thing for both of you?

4:31

Completely new for both of us, Although I will

4:34

say in my background as a social

4:36

worker, I do a lot of training,

4:39

so public speaking is something I'm

4:41

quite familiar with. It's a different animal

4:43

in some ways to be on the mic in

4:45

a living room just chatting with a friend.

4:47

But I think one kind of went

4:49

with the other and helped me become a better

4:52

interviewer, a better speaker, better

4:55

on the mic without an entire

4:57

audience in front of you, which is kind of nice and I

5:00

think helps give that report where I

5:02

truly am talking to a friend. So many

5:04

people will comment about our podcast

5:06

saying it sounds like you guys are just friends and we're

5:08

like we are, though it's not. We're not just putting

5:10

on a show, like once we stop recording,

5:12

we're going to keep hanging out. And so I think

5:15

that helps too, that we truly are

5:17

friends who get to talk and learn together.

5:20

So it wasn't a twist of my arm

5:22

to do this with one another because it only

5:24

benefits me. I can learn along the

5:26

way along with our audience.

5:28

It all comes through so clearly though I

5:30

know, there are people that are pretty good at putting on a

5:32

show, but when two hosts really

5:34

are friends and you can tell there's that

5:36

mutual respect and just care for

5:38

each other, it's hard to miss that.

5:40

And you guys do such a fantastic job

5:42

with that.

5:42

Have you felt the show of all over

5:44

time, though, when you're talking hundreds of episodes,

5:47

like looking back to the very beginning, is it one of

5:49

those where are like cringey.

5:50

Like, oh, when we were first doing this.

5:53

How do you feel about the evolution of the show.

5:55

Definitely, changes have happened, but I

5:57

would say more ideologically

6:00

then what you're actually going to hear in the

6:02

show. If you were to go back to our very first

6:04

episode, which people said, don't worry about that first

6:06

episode, no one's going to listen to it, and then for the longest

6:08

time it was our most listened to episode.

6:12

But the formatting, the music, the

6:14

segments, we had it

6:16

all on the very first episode all the way

6:18

up to episode three point fifteen. It's gonna

6:20

sound in its rhythm pretty similarly.

6:23

But I would say, how we talk about

6:25

this idea of frugality, what we've

6:28

learned along the way in the last five years,

6:30

and I think permission to change is

6:32

one of the things that we talked to our audience

6:34

and one another about all the time, that hopefully

6:37

we won't even be saying the same things

6:39

in five years from now that we're saying today.

6:41

I don't think we've lost the core of

6:43

who we are, but I think moving

6:46

from a scarcity mindset somewhat

6:48

in our own lifestyles to this

6:51

values based spending, the freedom

6:53

for how our financial life

6:55

looks person to person, and the

6:57

ability to redefine brugality

7:00

that it's not just clipping coupons and

7:02

pinching pennies, but it's actually an ability

7:05

to spend on a vacation that

7:07

is luxurious if that aligns with

7:09

your value system and you have made intentional

7:12

plans to do that.

7:13

So I would say those.

7:14

Are the things that have shifted. So sometimes

7:16

where there might be cringe is looking back at

7:18

Oh I might not have said it exactly that

7:20

way, But at the same time, I think it

7:22

gives space for all of us to recognize

7:24

there's a journey and things are going to change

7:26

in our lives, and we are going to experience

7:29

different things throughout that time that might

7:31

shift how we engage with our finances.

7:51

Jem, I'm curious to hear from you.

7:52

You're the author of multiple books, you're

7:54

a personal finance expert, and

7:57

you know, I'm curious to know how

7:59

the podcast Cask Space feels different

8:01

in terms of the way that you communicate what maybe

8:03

you're able to do through podcasting that you

8:05

couldn't do through, you know, authoring

8:08

books.

8:08

I'm lucky in that all of the writing jobs

8:11

that I've had, and then obviously with the books,

8:13

I've been able to write

8:16

very much how I speak. But I

8:18

always viewed myself as a writer. I

8:20

never viewed myself as a podcaster. I

8:22

was reluctant to start the podcast at first

8:24

because of that. I was like, I'm not a public

8:27

speaker. This is not my comfort zone

8:29

and that It wasn't until we started that I really

8:32

realized, like I love speaking

8:34

first. The way that I write is actually speaking

8:36

in my head and I just write it down. And now

8:38

I get to just speak first and speak

8:40

only. But it's a great

8:42

freedom, Like I get to have a conversation

8:45

with Jill, which is fantastic because

8:47

writing I always write for one person

8:49

in mind and try to teach

8:52

them a lesson. And now I get to

8:54

do that and have a conversation with

8:56

a good friend in the same time, and she

8:58

will have insights that I I didn't have,

9:00

and I will have insights that she didn't have.

9:03

And it all makes for a better experience

9:05

for the listener because no

9:07

matter who they are, we're talking to that one

9:09

person. But if they're resonating more

9:12

with Jill's experience over mind, they

9:14

get something that I could not have provided them

9:16

on my own.

9:17

How personal do you allow

9:19

the show to get in terms of the things

9:21

that you each struggle with financially

9:24

or struggle with in terms of the sort of

9:26

guilty pleasures that you might have or the ways

9:28

that you'd like to spend I'm curious to hear from you

9:30

know, maybe Jill, I'll throw to you first on that one.

9:32

We're getting better and better at this.

9:35

Jen loves to call our

9:37

lightning round the Vulnerability

9:39

round. It's interesting for me, although

9:42

I am a licensed clinical social worker and I

9:44

provide therapy, and vulnerability is

9:46

something I talk about in that setting. I

9:49

understand boundaries in a very

9:51

specific way, and so to recognize

9:53

that this is going out to the masses

9:55

and what do I want to choose to share but

9:57

I think this challenge over the last five

10:00

years of a more integrated self,

10:02

which is what we talk about when it comes to finances.

10:05

It's not this half of our body

10:07

over here floating in the outer

10:09

space. It's attached to our entire personhood,

10:12

and our financial life impacts our

10:14

relational, emotional, mental,

10:17

spiritual, physical, and so it

10:19

has been a good challenge for me to

10:21

be more vulnerable with protection.

10:24

I'm still choosing what I will and won't

10:26

share, but we then have seen such

10:28

a warm welcome from our community

10:31

with that of thank you so much.

10:33

I've been dealing with the same thing. I didn't have language

10:36

to put around it. And I think as we see

10:38

that it is helping both of us to

10:40

be willing to share because reality is,

10:42

and we talk about this very plainly, we're

10:45

not perfect. We don't have perfect

10:47

budgets. We make mistakes along the

10:49

way. We are still coming upon

10:51

our ideas about these things. We're changing.

10:54

What gen valued before having

10:56

two kids is different than what she values

10:58

now after having two kids. So I'm

11:00

recognizing more and more the space

11:02

that that's creating, the freedom, the permissions

11:04

for our audience. So it's growing in

11:07

me this ability to be more

11:09

vulnerable with the larger community.

11:11

Yeah, and I love vulnerability just for

11:14

years of doing SEO writing and

11:16

how everything on the front page of Google

11:18

is so stale, it's so formulaic.

11:21

But the way people really learn is

11:23

from the life experiences of other people.

11:25

And so I love that vulnerability. But obviously,

11:28

like with Jill said with protections, I don't know

11:30

if she made it up, but Nicole Walters

11:33

once said, I share my scars,

11:35

not my scabs, So waiting

11:38

until something has healed

11:40

enough to share it, but not raw

11:43

enough where it's still being processed.

11:46

So that's kind of how we gauge that.

11:48

That's such a great line. Don't you want to one

11:50

day come up with a line like that where you're.

11:52

Like, God, that's so smart, right, it's

11:54

a good line.

11:55

Yeah,

12:00

I'm

12:13

curious to hear if you've noticed

12:15

the things that your audience is interested

12:18

in hearing or the things that you're hearing

12:20

from your audience.

12:21

Has that changed it all over the last two

12:23

three years as we've sort of been through

12:25

pandemic and sort of kind of post

12:27

pandemic and now wherever we are right

12:29

now, are there trends you're noticing in terms

12:32

of the types of questions you're getting from listeners.

12:34

Yeah, so we just did a whole

12:37

big fact finding missions

12:39

surveys and all that because we just

12:41

got a book deal with HarperCollins

12:43

and we wanted to know from our listeners, what are

12:46

the things that you're loving hearing

12:48

from us the most. And the things we heard

12:50

time and time again was this concept

12:52

of values based spending. So a

12:55

lot of listeners will come to us because

12:57

they're like, I know, I should probably do

12:59

better with budgeting. I should probably

13:01

make an effort to like spend less.

13:04

That's kind of the iteration they think they're

13:06

supposed to, and then they'll make a budget

13:08

and not stick to it and think they're bad with money.

13:10

And so that's where we catch a lot of

13:13

people. And so this concept of values

13:15

based spending is kind of catching those

13:17

people and saying the budget is not the solution

13:19

to spending money, and spending

13:22

money is not the enemy. You know, we make

13:24

all these jokes about avocado toasts and lattes

13:26

are the enemy, and sometimes they're the hero.

13:29

If you want to go to the other end of the spectrum.

13:31

In reality, what we want most

13:34

in life is often the things money can't

13:36

buy. But you still need money to do

13:38

them. So when you identify the

13:40

big things in life that you value and

13:42

the small things, then you can spend

13:45

without guilt on those things. And

13:47

when you learn that, you're more motivated

13:50

to learn the skills and the life

13:52

hacks and the boundaries and all these

13:54

things that help you say no to the

13:56

things that don't matter as much. So

13:59

that is what we have been really

14:01

honing in on for the past few years,

14:03

is what are those things that we can teach people

14:06

to do that help them say no not

14:08

to everything, but to the things they

14:11

have defined as things that don't

14:13

matter as much to me, or things other

14:15

people are pressuring me or influencing

14:18

me into buying.

14:19

How do I say no to that?

14:21

And how do I say yes freely

14:24

and have more money to say yes to things

14:26

that I really do want.

14:27

I love that approach, and just sort of generally,

14:30

it seems the approach that the two of

14:32

you take where look, it's not about

14:34

guilting anyone for the way

14:36

they've been spending their money or not

14:38

saving or approaching finances

14:41

in general. It's really about trying

14:43

to have a better life. And part of a better

14:45

life is knowing that you've saved some more from the

14:47

future, but it's also being smart about

14:49

saving the money so that you can do the things you love

14:51

most.

14:52

And I really love that you take that approach

14:54

and how you think about it.

14:56

And HarperCollins book deal, that's one of the

14:58

biggest publishers in the world.

14:59

That's huge. That's awesome. Congrats.

15:01

Yeah, thank you, thank you.

15:03

Our editor was as interested in the topic

15:05

as we were, so they were very

15:07

excited about it.

15:08

It's very cool.

15:09

And I hope Jill, you're not having to hear too much

15:11

from Jen about like, well, when I wrote my second

15:13

book.

15:17

There might be a little bit of that, but that's okay.

15:19

I trust her Before I let

15:21

you go.

15:22

Anything about the space

15:24

now that you are, I guess veterans in the

15:26

podcast industry, anything that has surprised

15:28

you in terms of what it means to develop

15:31

a long running podcast and that interaction

15:33

you have with listeners. Any big surprises,

15:36

Jill, I'll throw to you first.

15:37

On that one.

15:37

I think the feedback that we get

15:40

from people, it still is

15:42

remarkable to me because I

15:44

still feel as though I'm just talking

15:46

to a.

15:46

Friend in my living room.

15:48

I mean, now it's turned into a bit more of an

15:50

established office. But I can still

15:53

often forget that there's this

15:55

whole range of people listening.

15:58

While we have an idea of the woman

16:00

we're talking to. It still is

16:02

this ethereal idea. But then to receive

16:04

these emails back from people saying

16:07

you nearly saved my marriage, You gave

16:09

me language to talk with my partner

16:11

about these things that we kept hitting

16:14

roadblocks and barriers to or I

16:16

never even dreamed of paying off my debt

16:18

and I just did it in a year with the tips

16:20

and tricks that you've given to me. And

16:22

I've binged your backlog and here's

16:25

the fifteen bullet points of what

16:27

is standing out to me. Of course, we've got

16:29

the other end of that spectrum, where people

16:32

are mad at us and they don't like how our voices

16:34

sound. Can't change that.

16:36

Sorry.

16:36

That has in some ways equally been a

16:38

surprise, because I got into podcasting

16:41

to help my husband. I did not get into podcasting

16:43

for people to throw firestones

16:45

at me.

16:46

I don't even know what that is.

16:47

But the feedback, and most of it is

16:49

overwhelmingly remarkably positive,

16:52

but also to this deeper level

16:55

that I never thought.

16:56

I think we're just having fun.

16:57

We're talking about something that, in my mind

17:00

from the field of social work is relatively lighthearted

17:02

and them than to hear you're changing my life

17:04

is like.

17:05

Whoa, whoa wow.

17:06

I mean we're quick to say you put in the work,

17:08

you made the decisions, like it wasn't us, but

17:10

so glad to be a part of that journey

17:13

and a part of the story of people experiencing

17:15

well being.

17:16

Yeah.

17:17

I think what is most surprising to

17:19

me is the growth that we had. We're

17:21

about to hit five million downloads without

17:23

anything but really organic

17:26

traffic, honestly, and I

17:28

think it is because of

17:30

how much emphasis we put back on the listener,

17:33

so like letting them decide

17:35

as many of our episode topics as

17:37

possible, having the Bill of the Week segment

17:39

where they can call in, doing polls

17:42

and this or that on our Instagram,

17:44

like just making it as much

17:47

about our listener as possible.

17:49

I think that's what's paid off

17:51

most to our growth. I mean,

17:53

we got an email the other day of a girl who's

17:55

like, I've listened to your podcast for like a month,

17:57

and now any time anybody poss.

18:00

Is a dramatic pause.

18:01

Dramatic pause, I say, the Bill of

18:03

the week in my head like we've

18:06

become like earworms, And

18:08

I think that is kind of a testament

18:11

to if you make your show about

18:13

your listeners, the show will grow.

18:15

It feels like a few common traits among

18:18

podcasts that have longevity,

18:20

and it's that sort of genuine connection

18:22

between the hosts, which you guys have, the

18:25

sort of a willingness to be

18:27

playful and vulnerable, which you guys certainly

18:30

have, and then an intelligence. You

18:32

know, everybody walks away from an episode

18:34

of Frugal Friends feeling a little bit smarter.

18:37

That's really important.

18:38

And so it's a good feeling to listen to an episode,

18:40

learn something, hopefully have a smile

18:42

on your face, hopefully have some next steps

18:44

in terms of how you're going to improve

18:47

how you think about spending. But it's such

18:49

a fantastic show and just want

18:51

to say thank you guys. We're thrilled to be partners

18:53

with you, and congrats again on the book deal

18:55

and all the success. But I hope all of our listeners

18:58

and viewers today will check out Frugal

19:00

Friends if you haven't already. But Jill Jen,

19:02

thanks for spending some time with us.

19:04

Thanks Will, it's been a privilege.

19:06

Yes, thank you, take care, and we'll see

19:08

you guys again next week.

19:18

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