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0:46

Hey everybody, and thank you so much for

0:49

joining us for in thee iHeart Podcast

0:51

webinar Speaker series. We started

0:53

these Conversations shoot two

0:56

three four years ago when we were all sort

0:58

of moving into a new world during quarantine

1:00

during COVID and we wanted to use the opportunity

1:03

to stay connected keep having good conversations

1:05

with the creators that we partner with, and

1:07

these led to some of the most interesting conversations

1:10

I've had in my life with some of the creators

1:12

that we started a relationship through podcasting

1:14

with today is really no exception.

1:17

First of all, David Eagleman, thank you so

1:19

much for hanging out with us.

1:20

Such a pleasure to be here.

1:21

We were sort of half joking all in earnest

1:24

before going live on the recording

1:26

about your bio. It's lengthy, it's remarkable,

1:29

but I want to sort of read it in full, just so folks

1:31

have a sense of your background, what you bring

1:33

to the table, and the scope of what we can talk about.

1:35

David is a neuroscientist at Stanford

1:38

University, an internationally best

1:40

selling author, a Guggenheim Fellow.

1:42

He's the writer and presenter of The Brain,

1:45

an Emmy nominated TV series

1:47

on PBS and BBC. Eagleman's

1:49

areas of research include sensory substitution,

1:52

time perception, vision, and

1:55

synesthesia. He's also studied

1:57

the intersection of neuroscience with the legal system.

2:00

In that way, he directs the Center for Science

2:02

and Law. David, you're also the author of many

2:04

books, including Live Wire, The Runaway

2:06

Species, The Brain Incognito,

2:09

and you're the author of a widely adopted

2:11

textbook it's called Brain and Behavior.

2:13

You're also the best selling book of literary

2:16

fiction Some sum

2:18

which has been translated into thirty two languages,

2:21

turned into two operas. You write

2:23

for multiple publications, The Atlantic,

2:25

The New York Times, The Economists, Discover, Slate

2:27

Wired. I want to go back to the two operas,

2:30

walk us through that piece. So was it

2:32

really turned into two operas.

2:34

Two separate operas. Yeah.

2:35

One was by Brian Eno, the British

2:37

musician who made an opera the Sydney Opera

2:39

House, and the other one was by Max Richter,

2:42

who turned into an opera at the Royal Opera

2:44

House in London. So that was just coincidence.

2:46

I didn't know either of those guys at the time. Now

2:48

they're good friends.

2:49

What was it like working with Brian YOUO? He's literally

2:52

my favorite musician, and I think I listened

2:54

to music for airports once a day

2:56

and that may be an actual number. What's it like working

2:59

with him?

2:59

Oh?

2:59

He's great, all right. He's such a smart guy.

3:01

I mean, if you met him and you didn't know that he was a

3:03

musician, you would just think he's a philosopher or

3:05

a professor of some sort. He's just such a

3:08

bright, intelligent, forward leaning

3:10

guy.

3:10

Was he one of those guys where it's like any idea

3:12

you were like, yes, that's perfect, do whatever you

3:15

want. Or was there actually push and pull

3:17

and a dialogue around what kind of opera he

3:19

turned it into.

3:20

Well, I'm sort of a moron when it comes to music,

3:22

so that was his department. But I just

3:24

participated and you know, had a great time with

3:26

the events.

3:27

Awesome. Okay, back to sort of the bullseye

3:29

stuff of what you are known for,

3:31

what you focused on a bunch. You're a neuroscientist.

3:33

You've written eight books on the interesting ways

3:35

our brains sort of interpret and communicate,

3:38

one of which is a collection of short stories. Why

3:40

is it a basic question to start with, but

3:43

why is it so important that we understand

3:45

why and how our brains experience

3:48

the world the way they do.

3:49

Well?

3:49

Fundamentally, we are our

3:51

brains, and so if you want to understand

3:54

anything about your existence here and what

3:56

this is all about, you have to

3:58

go to the three pound control center where

4:00

it's all happening. And the reason we know that is

4:02

because you know, people get brain damage

4:04

every day. We see hundreds of cases in the clinics,

4:07

and even a very small amount

4:09

of damage in your brain can change your reality.

4:11

It changes your decision making, or your

4:13

risk aversion, or your capacity to

4:16

see colors or name animals or

4:18

understand music or anything.

4:20

And so you know, if you damage a different part of your

4:22

body, you don't have that same sort of thing. Maybe

4:24

you're a little sad that you hurt your pinky or something, but you're

4:26

not different as a person. So that's how we

4:28

know that this is the densest representation

4:32

of you and of who you are. And

4:34

so fundamentally, I think this

4:36

is where philosophy has to graduate

4:39

to, is neuroscience.

4:40

Did you start out with that focus. Were

4:42

you, I don't know, eighteen in undergraduate

4:44

school saying that this is going to be it, the brain is

4:46

my life or did you sort of evolve into

4:48

it through other subjects.

4:50

A little bit of both.

4:51

My father was a psychiatrist and my

4:53

mother was a biology teacher, so in retrospect,

4:55

it's sort of obvious how I ended up here. But when I went

4:57

to university, I studied

4:59

lots of science, but I majored in British

5:01

and American literature, which is really my first love,

5:04

and I took a lot of philosophy courses and

5:06

that's what got me interested in, you know, how

5:08

could we get out of these philosophical quag

5:10

buyers and actually have something that approximates

5:13

an answer to these questions instead of

5:15

just ending each semester with question marks.

5:17

So yeah, the last semester of my

5:20

senior year, I took a neuroscience class

5:22

and then I was hooked. I knew I'd found the thing.

5:24

Do you feel like you've found some bridge

5:26

between philosophical thinking

5:28

and neuroscientific thinking or do you

5:31

feel like at no, it's still kind of

5:33

frustrating. These are really different disciplines

5:35

and it's actually hard to bridge them, and they argue

5:37

a lot. Where's your head at with it now that you've turned it

5:39

on both?

5:40

Yeah? No, I think that neuroscience has the capacity

5:42

to answer fundamental philosophical

5:45

questions.

5:46

This is one example. You know.

5:47

One argument that goes back in philosophy is

5:49

if you were born blind, you have a sense

5:52

of the three dimensional world. Is that something

5:54

that's inherent or learned?

5:55

Anyway.

5:56

One of the things that I've done in my lab, and I now

5:58

do this with a company, is we build this hardware

6:01

to pass information to the brain via patterns

6:03

of vibration, and we have done

6:05

this with people who are blind. We put let's say

6:07

a chest strap with vibratory

6:09

motors on it, and they walk around and they

6:11

can feel where everything is.

6:12

As they're walking around.

6:13

If somebody is coming towards them, they feel a vibration

6:15

and get its stronger, and then the person moves behind

6:18

them, they can feel the person moving around behind them, and

6:20

so on. And it turns out that people who are blind

6:22

immediately get this. They immediately can

6:24

map the three dimensional world to a

6:26

perception of what's going on. And so this

6:29

is just one example of many where we're able to tackle

6:31

a philosophical question and demonstrate what's

6:33

going on with it. And we've done lots of things in

6:35

the domain of time and time perception

6:38

and just generally how we perceive the world

6:40

and how that's underpinned by these mechanisms

6:43

in here, this three pound universe

6:45

in there.

6:45

And to think about these sort of very

6:48

real world practical applications

6:50

of what you study. It brings me to what

6:53

we sort of started these conversations

6:55

out of, too, which is quarantine and COVID. It's

6:58

a big basic question too. Somebody

7:00

like you see a massive dramatic

7:02

event like that to the human race. To put

7:04

it one way, do you start going in

7:06

your mind about all the different ways that this is going to

7:09

change how we think and behave, Like where does your head

7:11

go?

7:11

Yeah, sure, I've been studying this from the beginning

7:13

of it. I mean, look, we know all the ways in which

7:15

it was terrible. That list is endless.

7:18

But I do actually think there's a silver lining

7:20

to it, which is that the job of

7:22

the brain is to construct a model of the world.

7:24

So your brain is locked in silence and darkness and

7:26

it's just trying to figure out what's going on in the world,

7:28

how do I operate in the world, how do I move my body, how

7:30

do I move socially?

7:31

And so on.

7:32

And it turns out that the brain

7:34

is very flexible and good at this sort of thing,

7:36

except as it gets older it

7:38

says, Okay, I've I've sort of figured it out.

7:40

I've sort of seen all the patterns.

7:42

I know how people behave, I know what to say

7:44

and so on, and so it stops doing

7:46

a lot of changing in learning because the only

7:48

time the brain learns is when they're surprised.

7:50

So what happened with the pandemic is we all got

7:52

knocked off our hamster wheel and suddenly

7:55

nothing was the same. All of our

7:57

deeply held assumptions about you know,

7:59

okay, yeah, I can go to the store and get toilet paper

8:01

on Aisle six.

8:02

That's always going to be whatever.

8:03

Suddenly everything changed and the toilet

8:05

paper was out, and the Starbucks was closed,

8:07

and the bank was closed. All these things that we could

8:10

have never imagined happened all at once

8:12

in March of twenty twenty, and as a result,

8:14

we were forced to exercise

8:17

our brains in a way that we would not have

8:19

had the opportunity to do otherwise. And

8:21

that's actually really healthy for the brain. It's

8:23

the best thing you can do for your brain is

8:25

to constantly challenge it. And this, by

8:27

the way, is really the best thing we

8:29

know for dementia's like Alzheimer's.

8:32

The way to at least fight back

8:35

against that is to constantly challenge

8:37

your brain with novelty. So anyway, in a

8:39

sense, that's what happened to all of us from the pandemic.

8:41

That is fascinating.

8:42

It's a very very cool way to look at

8:44

it.

9:01

It's funny.

9:02

I was thinking, as you were talking about ten years

9:04

ago, I bought a motorcycle. I had no idea

9:06

how to ride one. I felt similar

9:08

For about the first tear riding it, I felt

9:11

like I have no idea what I'm doing, But I

9:13

definitely felt I don't know, more alive, younger,

9:15

more observant in trying to learn

9:17

this totally foreign thing. Today, I try to

9:20

hide it all the time because I have two teenage

9:22

sons and I don't want them riding it. But I

9:24

relate to that. It's sort of when you're knocked sometimes

9:26

literally off balance, you're in a different

9:29

mode. Your aperture is a little more open.

9:31

Is that what you sort of witnessed people doing

9:33

during quarantine a little bit? Yeah?

9:35

I mean yes, And it's hard to witness it because

9:37

everyone was so depressed and you know, there were one hundred

9:39

other problems going on. But okay, here's my totally

9:42

speculative statement, which is that when we

9:44

look, you know, fifty years from now, we're going to

9:46

see a slight decrease in dementia's

9:48

that happened as a result of everyone

9:51

having to really exercise their brains

9:53

and figure new things out. I mean, everyone figured out

9:55

new professions, new ways to set up studios

9:57

in their home, new ways to run their business.

9:59

I mean people were just really exercising

10:01

their brains in ways that they wouldn't have if

10:04

everything had been the same in twenty nineteen.

10:06

And by the way, had you grown up in a world where

10:08

everybody drove motorcycles and then

10:10

you got a truck and no one had

10:12

one of those, you'd be having the same sort

10:15

of thing of like, wow, look at this, the size

10:17

of this, the power of the fact that I don't have win

10:19

in my fit. You know, you'd have all these things that are

10:21

just making your brain think about things

10:23

differently.

10:24

Awesome. So you've partnered with the iHeart podcast

10:26

network on a show called inner Cosmos.

10:29

Just talk about what the phrase means for a second.

10:32

Yeah, so that's my phrase for what

10:34

is happening inside here.

10:35

I grew up watching.

10:36

Carl Sagan and Cosmos and

10:39

I loved it as a child so much.

10:41

And what struck me is I, you know,

10:43

became a neuroscientist, got a PhD, into

10:46

a postdoctoral fellowship and venture professorship

10:48

and so on, is that what we have in

10:50

here is the inner cosmos, which

10:52

is really just as mysterious fundamentally

10:55

as what's going on out there. And we're

10:57

just starting to send you know, a little rocket

10:59

pro was in there to even understand

11:01

the whole alien computation that's happening

11:04

in there. So to my mind, that is as

11:06

exciting and possibly more exciting that what's going on

11:08

in the cosmos out there, because we've got this cornered

11:11

we've got this three pound organism

11:14

corner. So that's what the show

11:16

is named after, and what it's about

11:18

is I'm using sort of the freakonomics

11:21

model of doing this, where each episode

11:24

is some weird question that I pose,

11:26

and then I'm doing this as a monologue

11:28

and for about forty forty five minutes,

11:30

I unpack this weird question

11:33

in three acts and I get to explore

11:36

these issues.

11:37

That are really revealing.

11:38

They shine light on what it is to

11:40

be a human and to have experience and have a

11:42

life and so on. So, just as an example, the first

11:44

episode is called does time really run

11:47

in slow motion?

11:47

When you get in a car accident?

11:49

And this was based on when

11:51

I was a child, I had a life threatening

11:53

experience. I fell off of the roof of a house and

11:55

everything seems to take a long time. And I ended up

11:58

collecting hundreds of imports

12:00

from people who said that time seemed

12:02

to run a slow motion for them. You know when they were in a car

12:04

accident or a gunfight or something like that. And

12:06

so I realized no one had ever studied this

12:08

in neuroscience before.

12:10

And the answer is obvious why.

12:11

It's because you can't replicate this unless you stick

12:14

someone in a truly life threatening situation.

12:16

But I figured out how to do that and I measured

12:18

this. So I won't tell you the answer. You have to

12:20

listen to the episode. But this

12:23

is just one example of this. And

12:25

I've got a million interesting questions

12:27

about our lives and who we are and

12:29

how we make decisions and how we operate in the world.

12:32

And that's what the show's about.

12:33

It's the intersection between neuroscience

12:35

and our lives.

12:36

And smudge of it, too, is just these adages

12:39

that we've used a bunch and take for granted

12:41

but just don't understand, but that actually

12:43

may be grounded in some truth, like time

12:46

slowing down when you're having a traumatic event.

12:48

I think there is a topic that you've talked a

12:50

decent amount in your career called synesthesia,

12:53

and I think it's sort of popularized

12:55

here and there, probably pretty widely

12:57

misunderstood, but to the extent that I

12:59

know, it's deeply fascinating.

13:02

Just talk through that a little bit. First of all, how you

13:04

got into it, how it got on your radar, But then what

13:06

it is, how we misunderstand it.

13:07

Maybe, Yeah, So I'll tell you what synesthesia is.

13:09

It's a blending of the census. So someone synesthesia

13:12

might look at letters or numbers and that triggers

13:14

a color experience, or they hear a piece

13:16

of music and it triggers something visual for them.

13:18

Or they hear something and it puts a taste in their

13:20

mouth, or they taste something and puts a feeling on their fingertips.

13:23

You know, it's just a blending of the senses.

13:24

They are about one hundred and fifty different flavors

13:27

of synesthesia that my colleagues and I have documented.

13:29

Now, the reason I got into it is not

13:31

because I have synesthesia, but because I understood

13:34

this is a very powerful inroad into

13:36

understanding consciousness. Because synesthesia

13:38

is not considered a disease or disorder.

13:40

It's just an alternative perceptual

13:43

reality.

13:43

So about three to five percent of the population

13:45

has synesthesia, and they're just experiencing

13:48

the world differently than you are or than

13:50

I am. And what that demonstrates

13:53

is the way that the brain constructs

13:55

reality and how that can be different from head to head.

14:14

Maybe loosely related to it. You

14:17

did a TED talk on broadly

14:19

speaking the idea of creating new senses

14:22

for humans. Yeah, it's an awesome

14:24

TED talk. I want everybody to listen to Inner

14:27

Cosmos the podcast. They should also go

14:29

watch this, But for those who haven't

14:31

seen it or who might check it out later today,

14:33

just give us a preview, like, what is that idea about

14:35

of new senses for humans? Yeah?

14:37

I got really interested in how the brain,

14:39

locked in silence of darkness constructs any of

14:41

this. For example, you know, colors don't exist in the outside

14:44

world. All you have is electromagnetic radiation

14:46

of different wavelengths, and your brain constructs

14:49

this private, subjective experience of

14:51

blue or red or green or some And you

14:53

know, sound doesn't exist as

14:55

such, It's just air compression waves that are

14:57

moving around. And yet I hear a beautiful

14:59

piece music or my wife's voice

15:01

or.

15:02

Things like that.

15:02

And so anyway, this is all happening inside

15:05

the inner cosmos here. And so I got really

15:07

interested in this question of could you create new

15:09

senses by pushing new kinds of

15:11

data streams in there. So I ended up building

15:14

a vest with these vibratory motors

15:16

on it. I sort of referred to this before, and it

15:18

captures sound. So for people who are deaf,

15:20

I have the vest captures sound and it puts

15:23

patterns vibration that represent the sound,

15:25

which is, by the way, exactly what your inner ear

15:27

normally does. Your inner ear captures

15:29

sound and it breaks it up from high low frequency

15:32

and it ships it off to the brain in these little

15:34

electrical spikes. So I'm doing the same thing

15:36

through the vest, but capturing sound

15:38

as patterns on the skin which goes

15:40

up the spinal cord as patterns of spikes.

15:43

And it turns out it works and deaf people can

15:45

come to here that way, and it's

15:47

this incredible thing. So I spun a company off

15:49

of my lab called Neosensory, and

15:51

in the intern we've shrunk it down to a wristband which

15:53

has vibratory motors on. It's doing the same thing, and

15:55

we're now on risks all over the world. So for people

15:57

who are deaf, this capture sound and replace

16:00

is there here. And what's cool is that although

16:02

we actually have three different hearing products on

16:04

the market, but we have seventy projects

16:07

that are in development where we're trying

16:09

to extend new sentences in

16:11

other ways, like can you see infrared light?

16:13

Can you develop a direct perceptual experience

16:15

of a light that we can't normally see? Or stock

16:18

market data or satellite data or Twitter,

16:20

or you know, flying a drone and you feel

16:23

the pitch yaw role, orientation and heading

16:25

of the drone on your skin.

16:26

This sort of thing.

16:27

Do you sort of see out ten fifty

16:29

one hundred years a different way that people

16:32

think and behave based on, Yes, some

16:34

of the products you're making, but like, do you have

16:36

this constant running thought in the background of

16:38

Like, guys, you have no idea what being

16:41

a human is going to look and feel like in

16:43

one hundred years from now.

16:44

Oh, I absolutely think that. And by the way,

16:46

we don't know what it's going to look like. I mean, in other words,

16:48

those of us who are creating new things and so on can

16:50

only speculate about what it's going to look like. But what I

16:52

know for certain is that we

16:55

have more in

16:57

common with our ancestors

17:00

a thousand years ago than we

17:02

do with our descendants one hundred years from

17:04

now.

17:04

It's fascinating and I mean I don't want to

17:06

overlay this notion on but are you hopeful?

17:09

Are you like? Look, we have powers inside

17:11

the inner cosmos, as you put it, that we have

17:13

yet to sort of click together and put to work.

17:15

Not to put words in your mouth, but that's sort of how it seems.

17:18

And also it's trending in a good direction.

17:21

The smarter, more capable, more multifaceted,

17:24

whatever the right word we get, the better will

17:26

be, which is a loaded term. I get that, But where's

17:28

your head on that? Yeah?

17:29

I mean, I mean generally, I'm extremely optimistic

17:32

about where everything's going. All technologies,

17:34

every development in science and anything

17:37

comes with good and bad. You know, if you figure out nuclear

17:39

power, you get bombs,

17:42

and you also get nuclear power plants that fund

17:44

whole cities, so you know, everything is good

17:46

and bad. But in general, I'm

17:49

super optimistic about where we're going. And this is true

17:51

of the machines we've been building anyway since the

17:53

Industrial Revolution. We've just made life

17:56

better and easier, by which I mean we don't waste

17:58

time. You know, washing our blows down

18:00

by the river, you just toss them in washing machine.

18:02

What's going on now is there's such a revolution

18:04

happening in AI. Just in the last few months,

18:06

I mean, twenty twenty three has been extraordinary for

18:09

this. In fact, one of my next podcast episodes

18:11

is going to be about what generative AI means

18:13

for creatives like artists and writers,

18:16

which I'm you know, I'm a fiction writer. You know, I'm going to talk

18:18

about this issue at length, But I think it's

18:20

terrific. We're building new machines all

18:22

the time that free us up from stuff we

18:24

don't have to do and really takes

18:27

advantage of our human creativity

18:29

to be able to make things better

18:31

and faster.

18:32

Is there a part of you that thinks, you know, there's

18:34

these concerns science fiction or not, that AI

18:37

will outpace the human intellect at

18:39

some point you'll have technological singularities

18:42

or what have you. Is there a part of you this sort

18:44

of response that, well, no, I mean, we understand

18:47

a fraction of what the human brain is capable

18:49

of to begin with. How do you sort of true

18:51

those two things up?

18:52

Yeah, Well, there's two aspects of this. So one is

18:54

what you said, which is absolutely correct. We haven't even

18:56

scratched the surface of what we can do with the human

18:59

brain. For example, this thing about building new senses.

19:01

That's what I'm working on, and there's just so

19:04

much to be discovered there. But the second

19:06

thing is, of course AI will outpace

19:08

us, but it'll be in very narrow paths.

19:11

So, for example, we have very long time

19:13

built machines that outpace our physical

19:16

strength. You know, I'm fairly strong, but

19:18

I can't compete with a crane or a bulldozer

19:20

or something like that.

19:21

And that's great, and none of us fret about

19:23

that. And it's the same thing.

19:24

We will have AI that does particular

19:26

tasks for us, by the way, in the way that we have it now.

19:29

For example, Hi, Excel spreadsheet, I

19:31

want you to add these three thousand

19:33

numbers together.

19:34

That's smarter than I am. It can do in a second.

19:36

I can't.

19:37

It would take me a month to do it, Thank goodness,

19:39

Thank goodness, we have that. So you know the

19:41

fact that we have AI on our phones

19:43

that can tell us, hey, here's how to drive from

19:45

here to there.

19:46

Thank goodness.

19:46

I don't have to have a fold out paper map and look

19:49

at everything every time. So of course

19:51

it'll outpace us, but in the ways that we build

19:53

it to, in the ways that we want it to I.

19:55

Want to land at the end here just on podcasting

19:58

very specifically, Like I said, it's usually excuse

20:01

with which we have these conversations. We

20:03

at iHeartMedia sort of fell in

20:05

love with this medium five or six years

20:07

ago. We've been making podcasts for fifteen or sixteen

20:09

years, but really decided this is a truly

20:12

awesome new medium to create

20:14

tell stories in. And one of the joys in the

20:16

last four or five six years has been seeing

20:19

other creators use the medium

20:21

in really sort of surprising and awesome

20:23

ways. So Will Ferrell using it

20:25

to recruit, develop and

20:27

break new comedic talent, Shonda

20:30

Rhime's using it to tell cool new audio

20:32

dramas, Malcolm Gladwell using it

20:34

in a variety of ways. How do you think

20:36

about it, Why did you choose podcasting as a

20:38

way to communicate, and maybe specifically what so

20:40

far has been sort of nicely surprising

20:43

about the medium that you might not have known previously.

20:45

You know, I've done as you said at the beginning, I've

20:47

written lots of books. I've been doing that in my whole life. I

20:49

read lots of articles, and I've been

20:51

doing a lot of television last yeveral year so I made a PBS

20:54

series called The Brain. I made a thing on Netflix

20:56

called The Creative Brain. But this was

20:58

a medium that kept it, like

21:01

a will of the wisp. I just I kept seeing it in

21:03

the distance and getting really interested in.

21:05

And the thing that I've found so far.

21:06

That's so lovely about it is

21:08

that I can generate

21:11

an episode so much more

21:13

rapidly than I can write, let's say, five thousand

21:15

words in a book. Because in a book, I torture myself

21:17

over every sentence and I try to make it

21:19

the most perfect, beautiful sentence ever, with

21:21

the perfect adjective and.

21:23

So but when I'm doing a podcast, I

21:25

can just speak.

21:25

It's like I turned the faucet open,

21:28

and I can talk about the things that I think are amazing

21:31

and I don't have to kill myself over the exactitude

21:33

or the phrasing. So that's what I have found

21:35

to be wonderful about it. And I

21:38

am, as I mentioned right now, I'm doing.

21:40

The whole thing is monologues, but I'm very

21:42

interested in doing all kinds of explorations.

21:44

I'm going to.

21:45

Include little blips of interviews that I do with

21:47

friends here and there.

21:48

I'm going to try other things.

21:49

I'm going to try all kinds of ways

21:51

of doing it and see what works best for me.

21:54

Awesome. I think that is the exact right

21:56

way to use the medium too, and so so psyched.

21:58

David and everybody listening today, please

22:00

take a second subscribe to and listen

22:02

to the new podcast from David

22:05

Eagleman inter Cosmos in partnership

22:07

with the iHeart Podcast Network. David, thank you so

22:09

much for hanging out today. It means a lot to us.

22:11

It's deeply interesting and really really

22:13

grateful.

22:14

Great, thank you so much for having me.

22:15

Everybody, thank you so much for hanging out with us too.

22:17

We will see you next week for another episode.

22:20

Everybody, take care, Be well.

22:32

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22:34

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22:37

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22:39

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