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0:46

Welcome back to the iHeart Podcast Speakers

0:49

series. I'm Will Pearson, President of iHeart

0:51

Podcast always going to.

0:52

Be with you.

0:53

As you know, each week we get a chance to chat

0:55

with one of our favorite producers or podcasters

0:58

or thinkers in the space and talk about

1:00

a show that we are just obsessed

1:02

over right now. And so today we get a chance

1:04

to do that. When I heard that we were going to

1:06

be doing a podcast, or at least talking

1:08

about a podcast with Billy Mann, longtime

1:11

Grammy nominated songwriter, record

1:13

producer, creative executive. The guy

1:15

has been involved in over one hundred

1:18

and twenty five million albums

1:20

sold, so it's just an unbelievable track

1:22

record.

1:22

I thought we might be going in one direction.

1:24

With the podcast, and I was thrown a curveball,

1:26

and I'm so happy that I was throwing a curveball

1:29

when we got a chance to understand what this

1:31

podcast was all about. And it's called,

1:33

Yeah, I fucked that up, and we're allowed

1:35

to say that on this show here, So we're going to get

1:38

a chance to talk to Billy about that. But Billy,

1:40

always good to see it.

1:41

Thanks for joining us today.

1:42

Thank you Will. I'm excited that we can

1:44

curse freely and we're recording.

1:46

We're adults, Billy.

1:47

We can do whatever we want on this show.

1:49

Now.

1:49

That's the beauty of podcasting.

1:51

So, like I said, it was fun to

1:53

see this concept because sometimes you expect

1:55

one thing coming. And again, you've been involved

1:57

in the music industry for a long time. I

2:00

just love sitting down every once in a while looking at

2:02

the roster of people that you've worked

2:04

with, from Burt Bacharach to John Legend

2:06

of Celene Dion to Share Backstreet

2:09

Boys, Josh Groban. I mean, the list goes

2:11

on and on and on, and so I'm

2:13

curious to hear from you when you decided to start

2:15

a podcast. What made you think to go

2:17

in a pretty different direction with this.

2:19

Well, I think it's twofold first, thanks

2:22

for having me. Secondly, I

2:24

think the experience of being a record

2:26

producer and a songwriter. The captain

2:28

obvious responses, I'm going to do a podcast about

2:30

music. But so much of what you

2:32

do when you're in the studio with artists,

2:35

most of whom at this point in my career are celebrities,

2:38

is creating a safe place for them

2:40

to be themselves. And you want and you want to

2:42

capture that moment. And what people

2:44

don't see, which I am lucky

2:47

enough to see, is the more vulnerable

2:50

moments that a lot of celebrities

2:52

and artists have. And you just don't

2:54

find celebrities who are constantly

2:57

in a state of judgment allowed the room

2:59

to you, forget brag about

3:02

failure, but talk openly about

3:04

failure, because every day that you're posting

3:06

on social media, or you do an interview, or

3:08

you're on tour, or go to the store to buy

3:10

milk, you are being judged. And watched

3:13

and I just I have gotten to see

3:15

a lot of famous people that are in my

3:18

life in a very not famous way,

3:20

and like all of us, they

3:22

fuck up, they are making mistakes.

3:24

They're trying to figure out how to navigate

3:27

being human. And maybe they're navigating

3:29

it in a car that's nicer than mine, or they've

3:31

got clothing that's fancy, or they've got

3:33

glam squads when they go out for date night.

3:36

But in the end, they're doing the same

3:38

thing that we're doing. And that was really the

3:40

first piece of it, and I just thought it'd be interesting.

3:42

And the second piece is really based on one

3:44

of my kids who has learning

3:47

differences and suffered from terrible

3:49

paralysis when he would fuck up on a

3:51

test or he made a mistake on

3:53

something, and I kept trying to explain to him,

3:55

you know, if you want to be successful at anything, you're going

3:58

to fail. You're going to fall down before

4:00

you get to run. You know, we first

4:02

we crawl and then we walk, and then we

4:04

run and then we fly. But you don't really think

4:07

about that when you want to do everything right

4:09

and it's impossible to do that, and

4:11

yet we are all living in a world

4:13

will where everybody is posting

4:16

a highlight reel of everything me

4:18

included and so, yeah, I fucked

4:20

that up? Is like can I I mean, the first

4:22

question is can I get enough celebrity

4:25

style people willing to actually

4:27

talk openly? And I hope that at

4:29

least the people listening to this understand that

4:31

the motivation is not to have like a gotcha

4:34

moment with somebody who's famous, but more

4:36

to show just how relatable it all

4:39

is for everybody. And it's a side that people

4:41

don't see. And frankly, even people who aren't

4:43

famous don't go into work and say I really fucked

4:45

up this morning with my partner or my friend

4:47

or my kid. But we're all doing it. We're

4:49

just not talking about it.

4:51

Yeah, to that point saying we're not talking

4:53

about it. I loved hearing the comment from

4:55

Kelly Rowland when she basically said,

4:57

nobody's ever asked me this question before,

5:00

you know, And I thought that that was just so bizarre.

5:02

And did you find that in most of these interviews

5:05

that you've been doing, are you commonly

5:07

getting that, like, you know what, I've not

5:09

really had a chance to step back and talk about

5:11

this before.

5:12

Is that a pretty consistent thing.

5:13

Well, I think most celebrities and artists

5:15

are constantly in a state of promotion

5:18

mode with they're out doing interviews

5:20

and nobody knows that better than iHeart.

5:23

You get called, oh, this artist is in cycle.

5:25

How do we coordinate them going on this

5:27

show with this jingle ball or this function.

5:30

So part of it is freeing them

5:32

from an obligation to sell, and

5:35

that's step one, and step two

5:38

is trying to just use

5:40

my record producer skills to create

5:42

an environment for the conversation that

5:44

is free of judgment, which is I

5:47

mean, we're all being judged all the time. But

5:49

to prompt someone like Kelly who's been

5:52

famous since she was a teenager, you know,

5:54

even someone like La Reid

5:56

who's been reluctantly famous

5:58

and then embraced the fact that he's a public

6:00

person, you know, it's an adjustment

6:02

to talk about these things because if

6:04

you volunteer failure, we're already

6:07

judged. Then it's like you're giving people

6:09

ammunition to further bury

6:12

you, and that's the misconception. So

6:14

I think Kelly's view, even with Michael

6:16

Bolton, was like surprisingly

6:18

meaningful to me because Michael

6:21

is a guy who's been I think he would

6:23

say openly, someone who's been at the

6:25

forefront of pop culture and also been

6:27

in many respects marginalized, and

6:30

someone that you would say, you'd make a joke about

6:32

Michael, and he's had to endure all that. But

6:34

the behind the scenes of Michael's life,

6:36

I mean, nobody knows that Michael Bolton lived

6:38

on food stamps while he was raising his daughters.

6:41

I mean, there are things that he talked about

6:43

that were so meaningful to listen

6:45

to that you don't think of someone like Michael

6:47

Bolton's going to talk about these things. So hopefully

6:50

when people listen to this, not only does it

6:52

make us all feel a little bit more normal,

6:54

but it also humanizes the

6:56

celebrities that they know one way, and

6:58

then they realize that they're also going

7:01

through stuff or have been through stuff where they

7:03

feel like they've fucked up.

7:22

I've never heard those stories.

7:24

I was actually going to bring up the Michael

7:26

Bolton conversation a bround some

7:28

of those struggles and the conversation that

7:30

you guys had around the idea of

7:33

taking yourself seriously and a

7:35

lot of times with people who are celebrities,

7:37

were often left with the impression that certain

7:39

celebrities take themselves too seriously, and

7:42

sometimes it's refreshing and sort of an

7:44

interesting peek into somebody's mind, this

7:46

idea that you know, again, some of these

7:48

huge names still struggle with these same

7:51

self doubt when these same things

7:53

that are obstacles within themselves

7:55

the success. But yeah, wondering if you could talk a little

7:58

bit more about that conversation with Mike Bolton

8:00

and sort of how he navigated that and found

8:02

himself you know where he is today.

8:04

I think part of it with Michael is he's

8:07

gone through a series of cycles,

8:10

right. I mean for him, he didn't have

8:12

his first hit song as an artist until he was

8:14

in his thirties. And in today's world, everything

8:17

is so young. It's like half of

8:19

the pop stars, you know, you would never I

8:21

don't say never, but it very we'd

8:23

all be hard pressed to think the next big

8:25

pop star is thirty something raising three

8:28

daughters. You know. I want to say I see

8:30

it, but I don't, and I don't think any of us

8:32

that now. It's like so and so is on this TV

8:34

show and they're a teenager, and

8:37

all of a sudden, our kids are dressing like whoever that

8:39

is or there's this worship. I think Michael,

8:41

on the one hand, had an appreciation

8:44

for this amazing opportunity that he had

8:46

later because he was singing jingles right and

8:48

all of a sudden he listened to his first hit song

8:50

on the radio, and right after he was singing

8:53

like a be all you can be army commercial

8:55

and they had to decide between is

8:57

he going to be a pop singer enroll the dice, or

8:59

is he to take away the one steady

9:01

income stream he's had to raise his kids.

9:04

So I think part of his taking

9:06

things so seriously will is the

9:09

fear of losing the opportunity

9:11

for his girls. It took a minute in

9:13

our conversation to get to that, because

9:16

I think when he was examining

9:18

his own fuck ups, like what does he wish

9:21

he maybe had done a better job doing,

9:23

he wasn't thinking I should have done a better job with

9:25

business. He wasn't thinking I should have cut

9:27

my hair earlier or later. He wasn't talking

9:29

about any of this sort of buzz pop stuff.

9:32

Really looking at the time, he maybe

9:34

didn't get enough time with his daughters when

9:37

he started to do well, and then

9:39

he realizes, now I can't get

9:41

that time back. I think we all go through

9:43

that in some ways. You know, we're not just workaholics,

9:46

but you know, my mom worked two jobs when we

9:48

were kids, and like in the morning, if I got

9:50

a note have a good day with three boxes of

9:52

cereal and a bowl. That was my mom's

9:54

way of being a mom to me. But I

9:57

think we're all trying to keep the balls rolling.

9:59

And I think for him, his taking himself

10:01

so seriously was I think born

10:03

out of a fear of losing the opportunity

10:06

and being back on food stamps.

10:08

It's interesting that we talked about, you know,

10:10

sort of the view that we see, and you

10:12

mentioned social media and the idea

10:15

that we're projecting one thing but having

10:17

certain struggles that are happening behind the scenes.

10:19

I guess to some extent celebrities

10:21

experience that to an amplified

10:24

degree, this idea of a very public life

10:27

and then what's going on in your real life. I thought

10:29

it was a fascinating conversation when

10:31

you talk about this idea of living

10:33

a double life, and I was curious if you could,

10:35

you know, talk about that and maybe even some of the conversations

10:38

that you had around this idea.

10:39

I've discovered from doing this podcast that people

10:42

generally have three lives. They have their public

10:44

life, they have their private life, and they have their

10:46

secret life. And I think all of us sort

10:49

of go through life like outward facing.

10:51

If you're selling something, you're on your job, you're

10:53

playing a role. Hopefully you love it, and if

10:55

you don't love it, you have to at least do

10:57

your best to love it for what you can do for you,

10:59

your family or yourself. And then your private

11:02

life is like who you roll with when you get home

11:04

and who you kick it with and watching your favorite

11:06

sport or a movie or a podcast. And

11:08

then your secret life is you know,

11:10

what we're struggling with or what we really

11:12

love that maybe is a little weird. Getting

11:15

through there is hard. And I had a conversation

11:18

with Shelley Wright. I don't know if people will

11:20

remember, but Shelley Wright in the nineties

11:22

was the absolute like country

11:25

music. She was everything Kansas

11:28

farm raised, Kansas girl,

11:30

beautiful, play guitar, sing,

11:32

wanting to go to Nashville and become a famous

11:34

singer or whatever. And she did that. She went to Nashville

11:37

and she got a deal and her number

11:39

one hit was a song called single white

11:41

female. She and Brad Paisley were

11:43

like the royal couple of country music

11:46

and the night she won the

11:48

ACM Award for Best Female Artist.

11:50

Now you have to remember this is in the nineties.

11:53

This is a Kansas farm girl

11:55

country singer. Dooe. I'd like

11:58

just happy to be there, like oh my

12:00

gosh, my dreams have come through. Brad Paisley's

12:02

like her boyfriend. This is like the Jessica

12:05

Simpson nick lche of country music,

12:07

right minus the tuna fish

12:10

and all of a sudden, you know, she goes

12:12

home and the whole time, Shelley

12:14

Wright is a lesbian and tells no one

12:17

except she's in a gay relationship,

12:19

and she knows or feels that

12:22

if she tells her family, if she tells

12:24

her record label, that her whole

12:26

life is over. And talking to

12:28

her, I was breathless listening

12:30

to her, because her version of fucking

12:32

up was really not being herself,

12:34

and so much of the themes not Shelley.

12:37

That's one level of the double life. But

12:39

I think what I've learned is everyone I've spoken

12:41

to has their own micro version of

12:43

it. Either they're not listening to what

12:46

their inner voice is telling them. To do. It's

12:48

like I got this opportunity to do X,

12:50

and inside you think I don't

12:52

know if I should do this, and on the outside you

12:55

do it anyway, and then when it doesn't work, your

12:57

outside voice goes to your inside voice and says,

13:00

why did you let me do it? And I

13:03

think Shelley's story was, I mean,

13:05

very powerful. But in other ways

13:08

you heard that from other guests, Like you know Evan

13:10

Handler. People know from Californication

13:13

and Sex and the City. He plays Harry

13:15

Goldblatt, Charlotte's husband in Sex and the City.

13:17

And he's bald, right, and he's known

13:19

as this bald guy who's a brilliant actor.

13:21

But what people don't know is when you

13:23

talk about his fuck ups. He has some career

13:26

moments and by the way, some hilarious moments

13:28

about when he has done sex scenes.

13:30

Like if anybody listening to this has seen Evan

13:33

Handler in any of these shows, some

13:35

of the conversation with him was so funny around

13:37

that topic. But what people don't know is

13:39

when we talk about I fucked that up or

13:41

moments of self doubt. The reason he's

13:44

bald is because right on the eve

13:46

of his Broadway career exploding, and he

13:48

was in Neil Simon's Six Degrees of Separation.

13:51

He was diagnosed with a rare cancer

13:53

and he had a ten percent chance of living. And

13:55

this is as a young guy. So the reason that

13:57

Evan Handler is bald is because

14:00

his hair never grew back after he conquered

14:02

cancer. So we see one

14:04

thing in the celebrities, and they

14:07

are all putting out there through

14:09

social media and pressed and red carpets,

14:12

all of their highlight real moments. But

14:14

I'm learning so much listening to these

14:16

famous people talk about these human moments.

14:19

It makes me love them more and

14:21

also feel slightly more normal.

14:24

I mean, I would say for every conversation that

14:26

I've heard, I think I've listened to five of the

14:28

episodes so far, and in

14:30

each one, these are people that I've heard interviewed,

14:33

in many cases dozens of times, and

14:36

it feels like such a different

14:38

approach here and a different kind of conversation.

14:40

And I've loved that, and I assume that that was part of

14:42

the goal here in terms of doing that. I'm curious,

14:45

just in terms of the podcast format,

14:47

why do this as a podcast? What is

14:49

it about podcasting that you feel has helped

14:51

this work in the way that it has.

14:53

I don't know another format where this would work.

14:55

I think podcasting, And as

14:57

someone that listens to a lot of podcasts, you

15:00

know, there's a lot of podcasts that talk

15:02

about this thing happened, What do I

15:04

do now? Right? There are a lot of podcasts

15:06

that I don't want to say a lot. Everybody has their own

15:08

thing, just like there's a lot of songs and a lot of artists.

15:11

But what I wanted to figure out was

15:13

one how am I going to get people who are famous

15:15

or notable in a way to talk

15:17

openly about their feelings about

15:20

failure, about falling down and

15:22

being embarrassed. And podcasts,

15:24

you know, you can roll out of bed and be in

15:27

your sweatpants in the studio and I'm not

15:29

worried about glam squads, and I'm not worried

15:31

about all of a sudden there's a camera and then there's

15:33

all these other expectations. So I

15:35

think podcasts has been a really

15:37

healthy platform where I

15:39

can talk to people and they feel less

15:42

judged than maybe they would on a traditional

15:44

talk show. And I think that that has

15:47

created a safe place for people

15:49

to feel comfortable talk. I mean think of how

15:52

many zooms you and I and everybody

15:54

listening to this have been on when COVID

15:56

and everything shifted in the world. And I

15:59

think even in terms of today's political

16:01

climate, talking to one another is

16:03

hard, ironically, given how

16:06

the proliferation of podcasts and conversations

16:09

and dialogues, and yet somehow, when we talk about

16:11

these more sensitive areas in

16:13

US, there are few vehicles for

16:15

this. And I don't know why, but I feel

16:17

like this format is giving

16:20

people a freedom to express and talk

16:22

about their feelings in a way. And maybe

16:24

it's because they're less judged than if they were on

16:26

a talk show being grilled under

16:28

bright lights.

16:46

You know, sometimes the word intimate is

16:48

overused a bit when describing podcasts,

16:50

but that's probably because it's really accurate.

16:52

You know, there's something about that connection

16:55

not only for the person being interviewed and the

16:57

conversation that's happening there, but for

16:59

the person's at home or the person on

17:01

their job or cooking dinner or whatever while

17:03

they're listening, feeling right there in it.

17:05

And you guys have nailed it already.

17:07

A lot of times podcasts take a while to

17:09

sort of hit that stride in terms of capturing

17:11

that. But each of the conversations that I've

17:13

heard you have here just really

17:15

showcase this incredible connection and

17:18

a willingness for the talent or

17:20

the people that you're talking to to be more

17:22

vulnerable. And so I think you're bringing

17:25

something that I hope is a benefit to people

17:27

as they listen to it. And speaking of that just

17:29

in terms of helping other people, not

17:31

fully related to the podcast, although you mentioned

17:33

your kids earlier and the fact that you watch

17:36

your kids struggle a little bit and that might have

17:38

provided some inspiration behind all

17:40

of this, we shouldn't go without talking about

17:42

the work that you and your family have done

17:44

to provide community support for families

17:47

with special needs, whether it be kids or other

17:49

family members, and one just wanted to say thanks

17:51

for all the work that you've done on that front. I know you

17:54

have two kids that are on the autism spectrum,

17:56

and I just think it's amazing the work you've done, as busy

17:58

as you are in your profession life to

18:00

have taken the time that you guys have taken to

18:02

really give back in every way you can.

18:04

And I wanted to see if you could share the story.

18:06

And you talk a lot about everything that you've achieved,

18:09

or you think about all the things that you've achieved,

18:11

but the thing that you're most proud of is one

18:13

of those moments where you get a chance

18:15

to recognize what you've accomplished

18:17

for a group that really needs it. Can you talk

18:20

for a minute about the moment and the Oval office

18:22

and the opportunity that you got there.

18:24

Well, first off, thank you for acknowledging

18:27

that we're in the entertainment business where

18:29

you find a lot of folks who are

18:32

of means and get to a certain altitude and

18:34

they do charity work and then they have to name

18:36

it after themselves, and it's like, if

18:38

your name is John Smith, it's like the John Smith

18:40

wing of the And I like the

18:42

anonymous element of it. And one

18:44

of the things that happened my oldest son has no expressive

18:47

language. So it's one in thirty five

18:49

kids are being diagnosed on the autism spectrum,

18:51

and it's a huge spectrum by the way they're including

18:54

my younger son is successful,

18:57

going to college, driving, loves

18:59

music and building a life and his

19:01

pace. And I would say to anybody listening to this, you

19:03

know, every journey is unique. But

19:05

with my older son, who's now

19:08

in his early twenties. There were very few

19:10

resources and very few

19:12

options. There was no health insurance

19:14

coverage. And it's a lot for anybody

19:16

listening to this who's for sure knows somebody

19:19

who has autism, a family member or

19:21

a friend who has a kid. It can be

19:23

a lot of unknown territory all at once.

19:26

But where I got involved was I had such

19:28

an upset reaction to the idea

19:30

that there was no health insurance coverage

19:32

for therapies for my son. And even

19:34

though we could afford it the way I grew up,

19:37

we couldn't have afforded it. And so as

19:39

I started to dig a little deeper, my

19:41

wife and I got active, and

19:43

that led to getting involved in

19:46

talking to politicians, really, because

19:48

to move the needle, you have to talk to people. I've

19:50

never thought of myself getting attached

19:52

to politicians. Eventually that

19:55

led to a relationship with President Obama

19:57

long before he was President Obama and he

19:59

was doing your Senator Obama. And it's important

20:02

to note that I've talked to everybody. I've

20:04

spent time with Mitt Romney, I sat with

20:06

Speaker Bayner. I'll talk to anybody,

20:08

But I really managed to

20:10

be a part of a lot of people and a lot

20:12

of organizations collectively to

20:15

put this front and center and make

20:17

it front and center, by the way, with George

20:19

W. Bush, with Obama and continuing

20:22

forward. But when this authorization

20:24

for funding, this is too long a story

20:26

for anybody listened to. But they invited me

20:28

to go to the Oval Office for the signing

20:31

into law, and I said that

20:33

I wanted to go and bring my son. My son

20:35

has a lot of behavioral challenges and doesn't

20:38

have expressive language, but I felt like

20:40

it was important that a person who's autistic

20:42

an individual is there. And

20:45

I wouldn't have done anything if it wasn't for my

20:47

son. My son doesn't have the

20:49

language to tell me things, but he

20:51

taught me enough to find some courage

20:54

in myself to try and risk

20:57

fucking up in the Yeah, I fucked that up

20:59

spirit of things, at least try so.

21:01

When the President signed the bill into law

21:04

for the funding and he gave the

21:06

first pen to my son, it

21:08

was better than any hit song, any

21:10

plaque that I've ever had, And in my house, I

21:13

don't have any of my plaques. I'm grateful

21:15

for all of them, but I don't have any of them in our main

21:17

living space. The only thing I have is that

21:19

pen on the wall. So I appreciate

21:21

you asking me about it, because even that

21:24

is like not easy to broadcast. And I was

21:26

even told when he was first diagnosed, some people in

21:28

the music industry said, you know, you shouldn't let people

21:30

know that you have a child with a disability because you

21:32

may not get work. They'll feel like you're distracted

21:35

or not reliable. And that fucked me up for a

21:37

while, and then thankfully I really

21:39

turned the other corner, which is like, not

21:41

only am I going to talk about it, but I want

21:43

to do something about it. And just so you know, iHeart

21:46

and Z one hundred were probably

21:49

the beginning of that activism

21:51

for me, the most powerful

21:54

supporters of awareness, including

21:56

one of the early Z one hundred jingle

21:59

balls where they put the autism charities

22:01

up on the big screen. And so I'm really

22:03

grateful to iHeart and you

22:05

know, Tom Pullman and Alyssa Pollock

22:08

and Elvis Durant and all of the people

22:10

in the organization that have always supported

22:12

that part of my life. Actually it's important

22:15

that I say that, you know, whatever happens

22:17

with the podcast that has a lot more importance

22:19

than that.

22:20

Well, I appreciate your saying that, and it's a

22:22

no brainer to get behind a mission like

22:24

that. I have loved talking to you about this. I

22:26

do hope if those watching or listening today,

22:28

if you haven't checked it out, Yeah, I fucked

22:30

that up. There's so many great conversations.

22:32

We've talked about a few of them today. I really

22:35

think you'll enjoy the podcast. But Billy, thanks

22:37

for taking some time with us.

22:38

We enjoyed it.

22:38

Thank you. Thanks for the support, and hopefully

22:41

I get better throughout the season because I'm

22:43

still learning and fucking up along the way, So

22:46

I do appreciate it.

22:47

Oh, it's a lot of fun.

22:48

Well, thanks for joining us today and we'll be back with you

22:50

next week.

22:50

Take Care.

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