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Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for May 17 2024, episode 180 serial

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churn. Hello, everybody. It's Friday once again, time for the

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official, the one and only board meaning of podcasting. 10.0.

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Everybody, everything it all gets discussed right here.

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That's right. We don't talk behind your back. We are the

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only boardroom that doesn't have a booth at a podcast conference.

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If you want to know what's happened in podcasting, it's all

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here. I'm Adam curry in the heart of the Texas Hill Country

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and in Alabama, the man who brings his programmatic Ceman to

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your vast say a lot of my friend on the other end, the one and

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only Mr. De Jones.

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Dave Jones: says I have to tell you to rip it twice. Does that

0:45

mean I rip you a new one? Do Adam Curry: you really mean we're in quite the mood today,

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Dave? Oh, yeah, we're in a good mood. So we started off before

0:57

we started the show, which by the way, we're live and lit

0:59

every single Friday afternoon. You can listen to us live and a

1:02

modern podcast app. podcast apps.com. Anyway, we're like I

1:10

got a rant. I gotta read I got a rant. But I got something to say

1:12

I ran out because Dave was late. He was late. And before we even

1:16

start that I want to say there will be no board meeting next

1:18

week. I will not be in town and will not be available to record.

1:22

Warren I'm so sorry. Yes, I'm going to Nashville.

1:26

Dave Jones: Oh, well that's not bad. For the Adam Curry: for the K love the K love awards.

1:32

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, this is yes. This is the is the big the

1:36

big God the God music extravaganza.

1:41

Adam Curry: Big God music extravaganza again Alright, so

1:48

what why were you late? What's your Ran brother? What's going

1:50

on? What's happening? How can I help? Dave Jones: I've spoken many times in the past about the I'm

1:58

sorry, I'm trying to put down my salami and cheese.

2:03

Adam Curry: I wondered what I smelled. But now I know. Cheese

2:07

Dave Jones: is my bread breath. Yeah, so I've spoken many times

2:12

in the past about the about my my hatred of USB C docking

2:18

stations. Adam Curry: Yeah, so yes, I can. Yes. And I think I've said don't

2:23

be a hater. But you have not taken this advice clearly.

2:28

Dave Jones: Okay, so I want to

2:31

Adam Curry: only read up the hatred is I want to re up the

2:33

hatred now. Dave Jones: Yes. So this is this is a after a couple of hours of

2:44

of troubleshooting. The USBC dock. We come up with this

2:48

lovely support bulletin from Lenovo. Oh,

2:52

Adam Curry: and this was a at the day job. This was a real

2:54

support ticket. uptaking Dave Jones: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And this, these these things are

2:59

just, they're just a nightmare. Everybody you talk to these

3:04

things have a limited lifespan. They're crap. Ever since they

3:08

went from old docking stations you had they had a custom

3:11

connector every every, every big one. Really. It was like it was

3:16

like Adam Curry: 70 penises because they knew scuzzy. scuzzy

3:18

connector scuzzy. Dave Jones: Yeah. Frozen guard, you know, frozen garden hose

3:23

type, right? Yes. Goes all proprietary. Everybody had their

3:26

own dealio Yeah, but you know what they were working every

3:30

single time worked. Yeah, every time USBC I have a document that

3:37

is like 20 pages. That shows how all of the routing internally

3:45

happens. Because what you see on the end of like when you plug in

3:50

a USB C docking station, what you see on the on the end is

3:55

just a USBC connector, right? But there is so much going on

4:01

inside of that thing. Adam Curry: And ask the question, is this not

4:05

essentially like a USB dongle that has no expansion ports?

4:13

Isn't that kind of what this is? This

4:16

Dave Jones: is no that's it and this is the problem. USB C

4:22

docking stations modern USB C docking stations are since our

4:25

Thunderbolt. Oh, they are thunder either Thunderbolt three

4:28

or Thunderbolt four Oh, system boards. So these docking

4:34

stations are a synth are like they have their firmware in

4:38

them. They run they run software they are they are almost like a

4:43

small computer unto themselves. Oh, it's

4:45

Adam Curry: like my LED lights. Yes. Yeah. It also buzzes on

4:48

your microphone. Dave Jones: So there are things that can happen with with these.

4:56

Where, where nothing you do on the computer For itself

5:00

actually, we'll fix it. You have to reboot the doc because the

5:07

doc is acting, it's acting.

5:10

Adam Curry: Acting Up. Yeah. Yes. Dave Jones: So the the what you see at the end of the is the

5:14

USBC cord that plugs into your computer. But what's happening

5:20

on the inside of that thing is your route you're actually

5:23

routing, your routing, USB A USB, excuse me USB one, two and

5:30

three, right, HDMI, HDMI DisplayPort potentially, if it's

5:38

supported VGA Adam Curry: video s video tell me RGB RGB s video audio

5:48

Dave Jones: networks, gold and Ethernet Ethernet and and and

5:54

Thunderbolt potentially three and four Thunderbolt

5:58

Adam Curry: Can you plug in your your Nintendo data glove?

6:02

Dave Jones: In the Lord little robot, Nintendo robot big. So

6:08

you're routing all of this stuff over over, you know, the small

6:13

connections, number of pins. The amount of things that can go

6:17

wrong with this are limitless. The so they usually always show

6:22

up with video first. So like in a in a financial services

6:29

environment. Three monitors is like standard standard standard.

6:33

Yeah, standard minimum some sometimes four, sometimes five.

6:38

You see big like trading houses and stuff they may have 10 Yeah,

6:42

on a single machine. So the ability to do more than two

6:47

monitors three four monitors is just standard USBC based docking

6:53

stations Thunderbolt docking stations, I struggle with this

6:56

so bad. Yeah, they they just can't handle it. You because

7:00

there's you have different flavors of DisplayPort over USBC

7:05

you have passive and active in all of these the end depending

7:11

on which configurations if you plug it in, if you have one

7:15

HDMI, one display port and one USB C to display port that may

7:19

trigger them to one of them to go into a different mode. It's

7:23

mind boggling, but then I run across this wonderful support

7:26

document. After troubleshooting for a couple of hours. Lenovo

7:32

critical Intel Thunderbolt software and firmware updates

7:36

symptom sim systems may experience any of the following

7:40

symptoms you're ready. Yes, USB C port not working Intel

7:45

Thunderbolt controller not visible in the OS device manager

7:48

USB C or Thunderbolt docking station is not visible or having

7:50

connectivity problems. HDMI output not available system

7:53

battery not charging with the USB C power adapter connected to

7:56

the USB C port. Until Thunderbolt pop up error message

7:59

Intel Thunderbolt Safe Mode error message BIOS Thunderbolt

8:02

communication error or hang during post that and here's the

8:06

kit here's the kicker, the white is more these symptoms may occur

8:12

after six to 12 months of usage. What

8:18

Adam Curry: are there moving parts that were or what was

8:21

happening? Dave Jones: Hey, you tell me what does that even mean? That

8:25

sounds Adam Curry: like it's crazy. That sounds like well you know

8:28

that that monitor may have a driver update or something else

8:32

may change sounds like they're building in some wiggle room for

8:35

things changing external to the device.

8:39

Dave Jones: What could possibly be inside of these things that

8:43

would that would begin to trigger problems 12 months in

8:47

the future. Adam Curry: Oh, I know that Venezuelan immigrants

8:54

Dave Jones: each Thunderbolt doc has a has a Venezuelan inside of

8:57

it, I Adam Curry: guess. Wow. Okay, I I feel your pain brother. I feel

9:02

your pain. Yeah. Dave Jones: Now multiply this across hundreds of users in this

9:06

you know, so it's Adam Curry: primarily but it's primarily the multi monitor

9:10

users that are experiencing issues. Dave Jones: What happens is the they seem to work fine. This is

9:16

like being going to industry conferences and this kind of

9:19

thing that this has turned into the USBC dock podcast. But going

9:25

to like industry conferences and talking to my peers. This is

9:28

universal. It's not it's not anything with one specific

9:32

vendor. Like evidently the Dell USB the Thunderbolt docks are so

9:37

bad that like you just go ahead and budgets 12 to 18 months and

9:42

they're gonna die. Like you just build that in they they they

9:46

swap them out like crazy. So this is my Can we please go back

9:51

to the old days standard Adam Curry: yuck and you know that's not going to happen and

9:55

the fact that it's Thunderbolt is kind of trippy is not what I

9:58

thought that wasn't Apple only Dang, but I guess it's the

10:00

standard. And Dave Jones: these dogs the old school dogs used to cost $200

10:07

Oh, these these Thunderbolt four dogs? They're $400.03 foot a

10:14

three foot Thunderbolt four cable is $75 Wow,

10:20

Adam Curry: what a gyp Dave Jones: it's outrageous and we're going to we're going to so

10:26

tell me we're gonna have driving cars we can't we can't even get

10:30

three monitors to work over USB see

10:32

Adam Curry: self driving cars? Yes. Dave Jones: Well self driving cars

10:35

Adam Curry: Well that brings me to your overview of the most

10:39

recent presentation by Google at their i o event. To explain the

10:43

future of the company. Yeah,

10:45

Unknown: I've ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai, ai ai ai ai

10:52

ai ai ai, I found the AI really useful. ai ai ai ai ai, ai ai ai

11:00

ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai ai

11:14

ai ai, ai, ai, ai ai, ai students ai ai vertex AI

11:19

and that's the father of generative Adam Curry: AI toolkit. Generative, generative,

11:28

generative ai, ai ai ai, there it is. Now you know what they're

11:33

up to? Dave Jones: Like the one guy that didn't generate the AI? Is

11:38

that a pretend an Indian or pretending?

11:40

Adam Curry: No, that's Oh, yes. I heard that part of the podcast

11:43

as well. The pretending No, no, that's a real a real Indian.

11:49

Yeah, but before that, I need my randlett All right, go. This

11:53

morning at eight o'clock. My phone goes like literally 759

11:57

I'm about to take the dog out for a walk. I'm gonna NSC. It's

12:00

a 512 number. So it's an Austin number. I'm like, no, no, you're

12:04

too early. So I just send it to voicemail. Come back in,

12:08

actually have a call scheduled at nine and say, oh, yeah, let

12:12

me check this voicemail. voicemail from Deputy Sheriff

12:16

Jack Barnes Travis County concerning an urgent legal

12:19

matter calling back at this number. And I'll be waiting for

12:24

your call. Dave Jones: Oh, no.

12:26

Adam Curry: I'm like, Okay, I call back I get him on the

12:29

phone. Now, it's clearly Sheriff's Office, just from the

12:33

the sound of it. And that's legit. And then well, I mean,

12:37

I'm looking at a 512 number then as a whole, I'm gonna put you on

12:39

with my lieutenant. So Lieutenant be Neil comes on

12:42

badge number 03156. There are two there's a warrant out for my

12:50

arrest, because I have failed to appear as a grand jury expert

12:56

witness. And I apparently signed on April 15. I signed the

13:01

subpoena that came to my door, and he has the numbers and

13:05

everything. And, and he says, you know, basically you can be

13:09

arrested? Yeah. Because you know, there's a warrant out

13:13

because you have ignored the subpoena. And you've ignored the

13:17

you're in contempt of court. And, and then a sudden, you

13:22

know, we get disconnected. So he calls back. And then he

13:24

continues. And they said now, so there's two ways you can handle

13:28

this. There's the criminal procedure or the civil

13:31

procedure. I mean, this goes on, I'm like, holy crap. And my

13:34

heart is pounding. I'm like, what? There's Dave Jones: the you can there's an easy way and a hard way we

13:39

can do this is what he's Yes, Adam Curry: exactly. And it's like, I'm like, well, I should

13:43

probably call my lawyer. No, no, we have a maintain contact

13:47

order, which means we have to stay in contact with you as you

13:50

drive down to the sheriff's office. So we can process this.

13:56

And I'm likely, and so this is going on now. 10 minutes. I'm

13:59

like, holy moly. I'm racking my brain. I can't figure this out.

14:05

And then he says, so what we need you to do is you need to go

14:09

to this kiosk, and then you're going to pay a bond and then

14:12

you'll have a bar code and then you bring that data say Oh, hold

14:16

on a second. You got me. You got me. I said I'm calling my

14:20

lawyer. No, you can't have Oh, okay. It was a scam. 15 minutes,

14:24

they had police radio in the background. And it was

14:28

sophisticated. They had my address my name, of course, my

14:31

phone number. It was sophisticated. Wow. I'm not

14:36

wanting to fall for something. But along the way, there are a

14:40

couple of things that started to bother me a little bit, but I

14:42

was just so blown. I mean, this actually, I've been asked to be

14:46

a possible character witness for a friend in Dallas next week.

14:52

was like some bullcrap thing, but you know, so I've actually

14:55

I've had special agent show up at my door from the inn.

15:00

Inspector General's office and I said, I'm not talking to you go

15:02

away, you know, because, you know, they're just harassing. So

15:06

that was kind of the back of my mind. I'm like, holy crap, what

15:09

are they doing to me? Is this a deep state? Finally, finally

15:12

they got me. They found Oh, wait, I have that somewhere.

15:20

Where is that? Dave Jones: Like, so that were they using? Were they using

15:25

generated voices or something? Or no, Adam Curry: no, no, no, no, it was it was actual it was actual

15:31

let me see is this it there you go.

15:38

Dave Jones: I mean, that was for real legit like that. So so this

15:41

were these were people that had like a believable Texas very

15:45

Adam Curry: believable, very believable. The they had the

15:50

police radio in the background. It was totally I was in it. I

15:55

was like, oh, man, I'm screwed.

15:58

Dave Jones: Up. You just knew that you were gonna have to go

16:00

buy $5,000 of iTunes gift card when

16:04

Adam Curry: it was when it was when you have to go to a kiosk.

16:07

Wait a minute, what is the US business? No, no, no, no, no.

16:12

I'm calling my lawyer. No, you can't. You. You have to what was

16:18

it? You must comply. I'm like, I comply this. But, but hey, 12 to

16:25

15 minutes. They really have me Dave. They really really have

16:29

me. That's kind of scary. It's social engineering. You know,

16:33

it's, it was well done. They had a script and everything. This is

16:40

Dave Jones: so I was in on a security. Like a webinar. Not

16:45

too long a webinar. Yes. Yes. It was great. And this guy's good.

16:50

He does. He's a local guy. Gary Warners has named me from UAB, a

16:55

University of Alabama in Birmingham. And he's, he's

16:59

really good. He's been in the in the cybersecurity game forever.

17:03

And wait, before it was even a thing really. And he he made a

17:09

statement in this last, like the annual update from last I think

17:12

it was in December. And he said, If you know he said it, is it if

17:18

you know, in your family or out or friends with or neighbors

17:22

with anybody who's older. I mean, I mean, like, like any

17:27

anybody who's let's just say, careful, be careful, careful,

17:32

careful. Identify generation, baby. They said baby boomer or

17:37

older. You're not baby your genetics.

17:41

Adam Curry: You know, there's a big disagreement about this. I

17:44

believe I am Gen X 1964. September. There are some places

17:49

that say you're a boomer Tina keep because she's definitely

17:52

Boomer because she's 1962. And I just remind her I was the face

17:57

of Generation X. You were

18:00

Dave Jones: Yeah, I'm deaf. I'm definitely Gen X. You're You're

18:05

I think you're Gen X. Adam Curry: Well, I know. I'm Gen X, but there's disagreement

18:09

from some borderline boomers.

18:12

Dave Jones: Are they on the council? Are they on the Gen X?

18:14

Boomer council that my wife apparently Yes. You're one of

18:18

us. Don't try to deny. So but he said, you know, if you if you

18:24

know anybody whose baby boomer or older tell them about these

18:29

things, because they are a target right now. Billions of

18:33

dollars is being milked fro Adam Curry: Yes. Oh, older people. I've actually helped

18:38

some people here. Who was going to be Oh, yeah, no, it took them

18:41

to the bank and everything like Stop, stop, stop this payment.

18:44

Stop this stop that, you know, ah, sad. And we've we've had,

18:49

we've had we got a special thing coming up in church for these

18:52

people. Oh, that's good. Because then the main thing is, in the,

18:56

you know, text messages, they're the you know, that's the big,

18:59

that's the big catch all so I got a text message. So that must

19:02

be official. And what what these guys got me with was the 512

19:07

area code that was sophisticated.

19:10

Dave Jones: And in the end, the local accent and and, and, and

19:13

Adam Curry: the police radio in the background. That was good.

19:17

And it was loud. You know, like there was a dispatcher. That was

19:20

quite Dave Jones: well, let's see this. This is in 2023 total

19:26

losses reported by c three to those over the age of 62. Up to

19:29

$3.4 billion. Adam Curry: Dude, it's a bigger industry than podcasting.

19:38

Dave Jones: We're the wrong money with these guys.

19:43

Adam Curry: We're in the wrong business. Dave Jones: Yeah, we should do how you it's it says tickets is

19:49

value for value. You give me money and you don't go to jail.

19:56

Adam Curry: You know, just kind of on that, on that tip. But

20:00

where everything's going, the streamers are, are there. It's

20:05

all going down. It's happening in real time right before our

20:09

eyes. We you know, so first of all the recognition that no one

20:15

is watching television anymore. I mean, of course there's the

20:18

people watching obviously obviously some shows they'll

20:21

have millions of people watching, but not 20 million.

20:24

Dave Jones: Quick Adam, name me one television show that's on

20:29

broadcast television right now. Adam Curry: Now the only thing I would guess is NCSI but I don't

20:34

even know what the which one Special Victims Unit I couldn't

20:37

know I can't name anything Dave Jones: at all six people in the last week that question not

20:42

one of them that name one you Adam Curry: know, this one, they say how do you go bankrupt

20:46

really slow and then it goes fast. All of a sudden this I

20:49

think we're in the going fast acceleration phase. And what's

20:53

happening now is the streaming companies who of course now you

20:57

know, now we got to show profitability. It's not to say

20:59

that Netflix isn't successful. Netflix, arguably the earliest,

21:03

the quickest to the game. And they've pulled back on a lot of

21:06

their a lot of the money they were putting into production.

21:10

And of course everyone's now starting with ads. Everybody has

21:13

an ad. So we've taken advertising base television off

21:17

of cable primarily. And remember, cable was brilliant,

21:21

because you got paid per household. So if you just had a

21:25

channel on cable, this would Al Gore he bought he bought and

21:28

sold the whatever I forget, it became AlJazeera I think I don't

21:32

know. Really? Yeah, if you are in a million households, you get

21:38

a million bucks a month. That's just because it minimum $1 ESPN,

21:43

which is still I think required. You're required to take ESPN by

21:49

most cable companies, they get $7 per subscriber per month off

21:54

of that cable bill goes to ESPN or slash Disney. So now the now

22:00

in so we unbundled everything basically pulled it all apart.

22:04

We got Disney over here. And we got Paramount over here. And

22:08

we've got Hulu, which was kind of a sad bundling of television

22:13

shows. And now, well, I'm going to go to the ditzes at Yahoo

22:19

Finance. two clips. The first the first one. The first one

22:24

shows you kind of the lay of the land. The second one I think is

22:27

actually the meat of what's happening here. Unknown: Rebbes Lake Alliance has emerged in the intensifying

22:33

streaming wars, Disney and Warner Brothers discovery are

22:35

teaming up to release a brand new streaming bundle later this

22:38

year. So what does this new partnership mean for the

22:40

streaming landscape moving forward? We're looking at how to

22:43

navigate the big picture with the Yahoo Finance playbook. And

22:46

we're joined by Ken Leon, Research Director of equity

22:48

research at CFRA and Jamie lovingly, third bridge sector

22:52

analysts shaping them start with you. You're here with us in

22:54

studio, I really Adam Curry: want to slap her but Unknown: man, I just keep getting like so amused by this

23:02

discussion, because it's like this new innovation bundling,

23:06

which is cable. No,

23:08

Adam Curry: it's not cable because these bundles don't get

23:10

paid per channel. That's not true finance lady PayPal

23:13

Unknown: did right. But do you think that this is the way

23:16

forward? And is this going to benefit the various parties who

23:19

are doing it? It definitely is interesting development. And we're seeing

23:22

this increasingly in this space. One thing we've been hearing a

23:25

third bridge from the experts we speak with just the fact that

23:27

what streamers are looking for ways to not only drive growth,

23:30

but also manage churn is a huge issue. Serial Turner's are one

23:34

of the things which all these platforms have to deal with his

23:36

people, either at the end of their show, they decided to

23:39

switch to a new platform at the end of a sports season, they

23:41

decide to just cut off that service. By having these

23:44

bundles, it's a new way that they can both drive longer term

23:47

customer value, but also showcasing different types of

23:49

content, you know, with the matchup of a Hulu and a max and

23:53

it Disney plus, it really covers all the bases of genres and can

23:56

appeal to a lot of different audiences. Adam Curry: Okay, so a lot of blahdy blahdy blah, but the

24:00

whole point is, they're churning cereal churn, which is great

24:03

show title, actually, cereal churn, because people are doing

24:07

exactly what we've heard everybody say, Yeah, I just want

24:11

to see this one show. And then I'll cancel the minute I sign up

24:13

and I pay my What is it now? Is it 17 $18, which is still pretty

24:18

high, but I'll pay that and then if there's something else going

24:22

on, I'll catch it later. Now the second guy kind of lays out the

24:26

the real bones of this. I Unknown: think when you look at the bigger picture, it's really

24:30

a lot of these media companies trying to figure out how can

24:34

they be profitable. So the first step was reducing programming

24:38

and content spending. The second was de risking, because they

24:42

have no control really, of the customer. Unlike wireless, or

24:47

even cable TV decades ago, you had one or two year contracts,

24:52

so churn is very high, they will never release that. And also, if

24:58

you look at where Entertainment has moved to events to live

25:03

sports. So none of these management's will say that they

25:07

can get to a 20% operating margin on this business, nor a

25:13

50% EBIT, margin like wireless, so it's not a great business and

25:18

I think they're all de risking, they're reducing capital, and

25:22

they're gonna say, Gee, Netflix is a winner, large technology

25:26

companies can play here, what can we do for two things, one,

25:30

tried to grow subscribers and to try to get advertising revenue.

25:36

There Adam Curry: it is. So basically, we're going to see consolidation

25:41

Paramount is now being ripped apart, the all the parts are

25:44

going to be the actually the parts are worth more than the

25:48

than the whole. And the sum of the parts individually, it's

25:51

going to be ripped apart is going to be you know, typical

25:55

leveraged buyout. So you know, the strip all the assets, get

25:59

rid of Get out, get rid of all the people with lots of firings

26:03

ahead, and there will be some offerings, but it's all going

26:08

advertiser base, the big draw of Netflix and all these other

26:12

streamers was hey, man, I just pay a fee and I don't have to

26:15

deal with ads. It's all going to come back. It's all gonna get

26:18

crappier. And yes, you will have still have some big hit shows,

26:23

just like in the music business we have. We still have a Taylor

26:26

Swift and a Beyonce and there's an even there, I'm starting to

26:31

see some actual revenue issues. For Podcasting, value for value

26:38

is truly the only way to build up your community. I don't care

26:42

if it's 100 people that it is the only way forward at this

26:46

point. And the advertise and certainly in podcasting, no,

26:53

it's just No, it's not working anymore. Except for per inquiry.

26:59

I still like codes. If you get paid on a code bond, Gino, I

27:04

still think that works with what they what we call a post read I

27:07

think that's still works. And you're nothing like a little

27:14

boost. Which was well that's that's a low baller. That's a

27:18

7772 Crayon. Yeah. That's correct. Yes, thank you. Thank

27:23

you, I'm gonna have to turn that one off. So you guys are abusing

27:26

it. You should only be you should only be using that just

27:29

to accentuate something with the harp. When you light up the

27:33

harp. Dave Jones: I see. I see Eric pap fixing bugs. So. Yes. And,

27:42

you know, you saw I didn't fully understand what Spotify did with

27:46

that price floor change on

27:51

Adam Curry: their bundling. Dave Jones: No, they said they said their Spotify Audience

27:58

Network span Adam Curry: lowered the worst name ever. As horrible. Really?

28:06

Did you just say spam what? We're just calling it spam. From

28:11

now on. We're just calling it spam. The

28:13

Dave Jones: marketing jargon here was was virtually

28:17

impenetrable. But I think I figured it out. They said that

28:21

when it's all got to do with programmatic delivery, like you

28:25

know, stitching in the ad as you as you listen. And evidently

28:30

they call it a waterfall. Adam Curry: Yeah, where you're at the bottom drowning.

28:37

Dave Jones: It's a waterfall where your foots in the drain.

28:39

Yeah. So they have there's like three layers to this thing.

28:45

There's direct sale, or direct buy and then there's span the

28:51

span Spotify Audience Network, and then there's like

28:55

programmatic delivery I guess that's like we don't have

28:58

anything else let's deliver a Viagra ad or something needed

29:01

bottom of the barrel. Yeah, but but the spec they said they

29:06

lowered the price floor on the span part and I think what that

29:12

means is that the Spotify Audience Network will take we'll

29:18

get more of the of the inventory delivery.

29:22

Adam Curry: Yeah, the the remnant the low level fruit the

29:26

not even fruit is dried up with dried up. It's like raisins,

29:31

Dave Jones: in a way is raisins. Yeah, it'll win it'll win the

29:34

bid more often. So things are pulling from span more. And like

29:39

this. You know, we aren't we we already have seen this

29:46

subscription stuff. That's, that's the only way to make

29:51

these things work. The advertising alone can't sustain

29:54

it. It's not everywhere you look it's always which You know

30:08

Adam Curry: not gonna last long kids use it sparingly.

30:13

Dave Jones: But the I think we got our we ended up with a wrong

30:19

idea of the way that the monetization of all of this

30:22

stuff worked. Because we put your Facebook and Google, which

30:28

dominated advertising in May, obviously makes make billions

30:36

and billions of dollars. And so I think it left us with this

30:39

idea that advertising is, is always in everywhere going to be

30:44

a winning strategy for for, you know, for revenue. But

30:50

Adam Curry: it's not, but it's not no, it

30:54

Dave Jones: only it's only a winning strategy if you are

30:56

essentially a monopoly in a business which Google is and

30:59

Facebook is. Facebook is, is a is a virtual I hate this. I hate

31:05

the term virtual monopoly. Yes, but they but you I think you

31:09

understand my meaning and the players within the social media

31:13

world. Facebook is as close to a monopoly as you're gonna get a

31:18

Twitter's a, that's a joke. I mean, it's an also ran. And it

31:23

Facebook, Facebook is the 900 pound gorilla. Nobody even comes

31:27

close to second. Adam Curry: That's because they they're not really in brand

31:30

advertising there. They're like the classifieds. You know, it's

31:33

like, and that's starting to wane as well be you want, you

31:36

want some spam, you want some bots, go and put an ad on

31:39

Facebook. I mean, that's podcasting

31:41

Dave Jones: is the anti monopoly. Ooh,

31:46

Adam Curry: like that is showing that. You

31:48

Dave Jones: know what I mean? They're there. It's the podcasting is by definition, anti monopoly because it is so

31:55

diverse. Nobody will ever dominate. In this in this arena.

32:01

Even people who have large audiences, there still only one

32:06

show in a person's podcast app. That person also has, if a

32:10

person listens to doesn't matter if a person listens to three

32:13

hours of Joe Rogan a week. That person also has 17 Other

32:17

subscriptions. Yeah. And it's net, it is absolutely the anti

32:21

monopoly. And so there's no way that advertising is going to

32:25

ever become the main player that supports podcasting. It's just

32:31

not. I mean, I mean, in order to provide everybody with like,

32:35

livelihoods is not happening.

32:39

Adam Curry: Well, in addition, in addition to that, we went

32:43

horribly wrong many, many years ago in podcasting, I would like

32:48

to try and explain and this has come up for me recently, as I am

32:54

realizing that the pitch podcasting is making is pretty

33:00

much centered around a couple things right now monetization

33:06

growing your show video. That's pretty much the pitch. And when

33:11

we first started, okay, so when we first started podcasting,

33:15

what was so common, I don't use this word easily. What was so

33:19

awesome was you were hearing people who weren't professional

33:26

broadcasters, they didn't have a professional delivery.

33:31

Unfortunately, it was very hard to even get a semi professional

33:34

sound. And so somewhere along the line because and I tried it

33:39

was 10 years ago, I tried to get the Kastmaster probe out there

33:43

and like we need to get people back into just sitting down

33:47

recording and then putting that out and because we didn't have

33:51

real time processing basically we had musician gear you know

33:57

that we were that we had repurposed broadcast gear was

34:00

out of control expensive. I mean, the amount of rigs I have

34:05

built over the years with DB X compressor limiters with literal

34:11

racks with the what I have done processing units 19 inch boards

34:19

everything because that was just too much for people to figure

34:24

out and and the sound quality was so poor without some of the

34:29

basics we resulted to this format where you record then you

34:37

or preferably you hire someone who is then going to process

34:42

that check you chop out all the arms and the eyes and tighten up

34:46

spaces of now you Phil Spector with a wall of sound brighter

34:50

eyes, my big baggy as boys and we became and we became

34:54

something that is just boring like radio, you know, just we've

34:58

kind of reached we kind of recreate He did that. And we

35:01

never really got that. In fact, Dave Winer, I think he said,

35:06

This might have been an interview he did. I'm thinking

35:08

James Cridland had this somewhere. Weiner was concerned.

35:12

And it's a valid concern. He was concerned about me being kind of

35:17

the face of podcasting, because and I think there's something to

35:20

this, because people would hear me and think, Well, I can never

35:25

be that professional. Whereas the idea that you can just be

35:30

someone who just records a podcast about your the topic,

35:34

that's your passion, about your community of interest about your

35:38

local community, about your school, your church, your your,

35:42

your soccer club, whatever it is. And that that will be Oh,

35:46

that's not a good podcast. And I think we actually that happened

35:49

to us, we got to that point where, well, that's not a good

35:53

plug. And now it's even taking it one step further. If you

35:57

don't have headphones on with mics, and it doesn't say rode on

36:00

the boom, and you don't have video, you're not a podcast.

36:03

Yeah. And along with that comes a need because we have serial

36:09

churn, we have serial churn in the hosting business. And as I

36:13

was listening, I've only listened to a little bit of pod

36:16

news weekly review, but as I was listening about you know, the

36:20

the never ending conversation of purse first party data, bliss

36:24

and time statistics, etc. A James and Sam both made valid

36:28

points that James says, Look, stats are very important because

36:32

that's kind of the only thing that the new podcasts are has

36:37

that validates what they're doing is okay, I see a download

36:41

from from Lithuania. And I'm sure it's Dolby Das, his mom who

36:46

sit in there. And you know, I won't go into downloads. You

36:50

know, all these weird kind of stats. Interestingly, now that

36:54

James has seen that, that his, the Buzzsprout, what does that

37:00

thing called? Dave Jones: Fan Mail fan mail, that

37:05

Adam Curry: if he puts that if he incorporates that into a

37:08

show, all of Jacksonville, Florida will send him fan mail,

37:12

which is of course what Buzzsprout is located. But the

37:16

idea that comments will be one way totally valid. And then Sam

37:20

pipes him, but it was kind of poo pooed a little bit. But what

37:24

I have seen when you put someone on value for value, and they see

37:30

Satoshis coming in the mail one person listening is exciting

37:35

because you every minute you see five SATs go by I just had this

37:38

experience, a dear old friend of mine, Vic Pepe, know from the

37:43

music business. He's been a big IT guy now. He started a podcast

37:47

called 10,000 miles. And even though he knows me, and even

37:50

though I was number two interview on his podcast, it was

37:53

all YouTube is all YouTube. And you know, he's got the camera

37:57

all set up. And everything is he's done like nine episodes.

38:00

And he says, you know, what, do you got any feedback? I said,

38:04

Yeah, turd, you're talking to the pod father here. And so I

38:08

send them to blueberry to vid to pod any and he gets it set up,

38:14

you know, a couple of hiccups and stuff. But Mike Newman

38:17

actually very helpful. So he gets a set up, he puts it out

38:20

there. Its value for value. And of course, I boost him

38:25

obviously, he's all jacked. He's calling me like, I got gotten a

38:28

boost for me. But then he sees other people just listening, he

38:32

got a boost. He's like, how does this happen? It's amazing. So he

38:36

is so excited. Just and it's not about the amount of money. It's

38:41

just the validation, which he's not getting from YouTube, on

38:44

YouTube, you know, he's got like 100 views, you know, 200 views,

38:49

my episode was more i I tweeted it a link or whatever. But in

38:53

general, it's just a, it's a handful of views. And so when he

38:57

sees that coming in, he's excited. And I feel that podcast

39:04

hosting companies. Now, of course, some notable exceptions

39:07

who were all in on this train, need to push that because that

39:12

is what's going to retain your customer. That is the excitement

39:16

that people need. And I think it's great that you know, people

39:19

have magic, magic mix music, sound things and all that to

39:23

help people I think all of that is fantastic. You know, but but

39:27

we need to maintain the idea that just anybody can do it. You

39:31

stop with this pressure of OH, you can get out of $10,000 in

39:35

advertising. That's not going to retain anybody. It's

39:38

unobtainable, actually. And I think that we even and this kind

39:45

of gave me a thought that you know, for for comments I hate

39:48

using the CAC term, but for activity pub interactions, the

39:56

social interact as it's technically known Maybe that

40:00

should be something the hosting company should be pushing,

40:04

instead of relying on the apps to do all this work. That was

40:07

actually something James said. I think so too. And I caught

40:11

myself going. Yeah, you know, I think you're right there. I think that's, that's a really good point we have, because of

40:17

the push we have made, because of the integrations we have

40:20

done, we actually got something to be done that people said

40:24

couldn't be done for a decade was Apple actually did

40:27

something. Now, yeah, typical Apple fashion, you know, they do

40:30

it their own way. And you know, their shit don't stink, and

40:33

they're better with their transcripts for I don't care.

40:35

They linked to our namespace, and it's a validation of what

40:39

we're doing. I believe we can push many more of these things.

40:43

Now, is it unthinkable that they would allow you to connect a

40:46

wallet, etc. In the future? I don't know. But I know that my

40:50

boy Vic is now pushing 2.0 apps because he loves it. He loves

40:55

the idea of seeing validation come in. And his hosting company

41:01

is blueberry because blueberry allows that and he was able to

41:04

figure it out himself, you know, when he got a wallet and

41:07

everything was all set up. Beautiful. And but now and you

41:11

know, I pointed him towards Saturn because Saturn relaunched

41:14

their stats for what is that it's honestly your I keep

41:19

forgetting Saturn dot fly dot

41:22

Dave Jones: Dev. Yet wonderful. You

41:25

Adam Curry: are now it's horrible. You are I'll be out contracts is still out there. And then of course for the more

41:30

advanced, you know, helipad. And the same goes for for life. You

41:34

know, this is the trend people love listening to live, they

41:37

just love it. And you know, what do we have? I don't even know

41:40

what we have in the boardroom right now. It's like maybe what

41:43

20 People doesn't matter. It's that interaction. It's these

41:47

things that are going back and forth. It's full. If you and I

41:50

just did the show and had nothing but stats and podcast

41:54

index dot social, I think it'd be we'd be a lot less motivated.

41:58

Dave Jones: Oh, for sure. Totally. I don't know what it is

42:02

about. Because Because you're it's no different than just

42:06

looking at a spreadsheet. Like, if you get okay, it's it's the

42:10

difference between if we just talking about purely financial I

42:15

mean, like there's, there's, I think there's a lot more to it.

42:18

It's a psychological thing more than financial. But, but let's

42:22

just put it in financial terms, just for illustrations purposes.

42:27

If you if your company is doing if you just get a spreadsheet at

42:35

the end of the quarter, saying well, you just you know, you

42:38

made this much profit. I mean, that's great, but it's not what

42:42

you would call exciting. Adam Curry: Spread, but not sexy.

42:47

Dave Jones: But if you're a bit if you're a sales guy, and

42:49

you're getting those commission checks every month, you that's a

42:53

different thing. There's something about I don't know how

42:58

to explain some value Adam Curry: for value, I put this work into it, I got

43:02

something back. Dave Jones: And, but it's more like the I think the difference

43:09

with boosts and streaming sets is that you're getting pushed,

43:18

you're getting real time communication. It feels like

43:23

like if somebody turns when somebody listens to your show.

43:27

Okay, here, here's a I think I'm zeroing in on this right now.

43:30

Okay, so when I listen to a podcast, I can't control the

43:36

show. You hit the play button. In your, in your now you've

43:43

turned yourself over to the host. They're in control. You

43:48

are now just along for the ride. And you don't and it's there's

43:53

an excitement there because you're not sure what's going to

43:55

happen next. Because you're you're relinquishing your

43:59

control. Yes, you've become passive. And you're experiencing

44:04

the the podcast. That value for value is streaming says flips

44:10

that back on the podcast or to where now the podcaster is doing

44:14

the same thing. They've relinquished control and they're

44:17

watching seeing things happen in real time as these events come

44:23

back to them. Yeah, it's sort of it's like the most pure two way

44:27

street. Because you're it's almost like your your watch as

44:31

the podcaster you're watching this event happening the same

44:36

way your audience is, you know, I think so. I think it's it yes,

44:40

there's a financial aspect to it. And it's always nice to make

44:44

some to make some money and that kind of thing. But like when

44:48

you're when that when the harp triggered a while ago. Yeah,

44:53

yeah, was it we didn't know that was gonna happen and it makes it

44:56

fun. Yeah, it makes the whole experience fun because you're

45:00

So, now you've engaged your audience and they're able to

45:03

bring you on an on an unexpected journey that you can't control.

45:09

I think I think that's, I never thought a bill I like like that.

45:12

That's a really cool idea. It's, Adam Curry: it's important because it, and I'm saying this

45:17

for our hosting company partners, they're the most

45:20

stable part of the entire ecosystem. And the, you know,

45:25

the amount of time and energy may be nothing for him, I don't

45:28

know, but what, what Buzzsprout put into the fan mail app, I

45:31

mean, I wish they would have put that that energy into, you know,

45:37

a social interact, they're there. They're a big player,

45:41

when they do something, when in fact, they were instrumental in

45:44

moving a lot of these things by adopting transcripts and

45:48

chapters and all these things early on. And, you know, as one

45:53

goes, so go the rest. And then I love seeing the 2.0 native

45:56

companies. I mean, these guys, I think that there, if you look at

46:00

them on a pure profitability scale, they're probably out

46:02

doing percentage wise, bigger companies, because it's, you

46:06

know, it's one guy, right, one guy who can do everything, and

46:09

can still handle the relatively low amount of, of customer

46:14

support. But they're really pushing the envelope really

46:17

moving the needle on things. I see what Sam was doing with true

46:23

fans, I mean, he's out of control. He's out of control, is

46:26

out of control, you selling books, and there's all kinds of

46:29

stuff happening, which is great. I mean, it's beautiful. It's not

46:33

all quite, you know, there's not a lot of ecosystem behind him

46:36

yet. But he's worried Dave Jones: that it's madness. Yes, it's pure madness. But the

46:41

Adam Curry: idea that you want to give somebody joy for just

46:44

being themselves, I'd like to get back to that. That's what

46:48

the podcast industrial complex, it kind of kind of clicked for

46:51

me. I was having a couple of conversations with people. I'm

46:54

like, you know, what, where do we go wrong with, you know,

46:58

here's, we kind of talked about this last week, but radios main

47:03

function. And I've been in radio since I was 15 years old with a

47:07

five watt transmitter in my little village south of

47:11

Amsterdam. Radio has always been a local medium. So whether it

47:16

was the kids in my neighborhood going, Hey, man, I heard your

47:19

signal and my mom drove me around the block to the closed

47:22

hospital radio station at the tulip Hospital in I'm still

47:26

Fein, where it was literally a captured audience. They could

47:30

not leave. And we're basically just playing requests for them

47:34

from their family, etc. For people who are in the hospital

47:37

Dave Jones: that has a really fun hobby. It

47:39

Adam Curry: was great fun. To the pirate radio stations. Yeah,

47:43

we had 150 Watts, we were only covering Amsterdam, we called

47:47

ourselves the rhythm of the Capitol, you know that we were

47:49

just playing dance music, but really for a dance oriented city

47:54

at the time. But to dizzy 100 in New York, even though that was

48:01

you know, 50,000 watts at the Empire State Building 50,000

48:07

Watts, you know, who did a flame thrower, who? New York. He was

48:17

still local radio. I was talking about the local events about the

48:20

mayor, you know, all these things that were local. Now

48:23

Elvis Duran, who I know really well. I've known Elvis when he

48:26

was still in radio and Austin in like the in the late 90s. That

48:32

he became the morning guy in New York. It's 100. Of course,

48:35

everything got consolidate. He went to I think they've got

48:38

bought by I heart. And so he now is the morning show guy in eight

48:43

cities, eight top markets. And yeah, they've localized stuff,

48:47

you know, in between record. Hey, it's Elvis Duran in New

48:49

York. Hey, it's almost ran in Houston. Yeah, so they've

48:52

localized that, but it's no longer local, and we've lost our

48:56

way in radio, and I'd like to bring that back. And now we have

49:00

all of that capability. In fact, I've been toying with the idea

49:05

of really just starting a local Fredericksburg, a Fredericksburg

49:09

local show that and it should be live and I don't know if it's

49:12

every morning or whatever, but it needs to be live. It's a

49:15

podcast you can listen to whenever you want Dave Jones: to please do a morning show. For greater

49:22

Fredericksburg weather. Adam Curry: There's a lot going on in Fredericksburg and we only

49:29

have one weekly newspaper. And it's very politically motivated

49:34

and it's very left which is you know, contrary to a lot of live

49:38

around here. But it's Dave Jones: per se that pollen counts up to 2500. Today you'll

49:44

be careful out there. There's Adam Curry: a lot going on in Fredericksburg that is not

49:48

discussed that there is no end all the all the towns and cities

49:51

really have as a Facebook page where everyone yells at each

49:54

other and is useless. So

49:56

Dave Jones: college it just a local college

50:00

Adam Curry: Thank you even just a local call in show. So I've

50:03

given myself the the edict to lift 1000 voices across America.

50:08

I haven't figured out what that means yet, but I'm working on

50:10

it. Because and it's actually you know, this guy, Fernando.

50:16

Hold on a second. Let me grab this Dave Jones: fernet. Feta net, Fernando.

50:23

Adam Curry: Fernando is Where'd that come from?

50:29

Dave Jones: Did that come through? Adam Curry: What was that? Sorry. That's that was

50:36

Dave Jones: the Bluetooth does work actually. Adam Curry: I was looking I don't think I put that into the

50:42

into helipad. Again,

50:46

Dave Jones: I forgot that I looked up the road caster the

50:49

Bluetooth. Okay. Adam Curry: So he so he's a kid who he came to America from

50:58

Brazil with 100 bucks in his pocket. And, and so he has a

51:03

full time job. But he started this company audio sigma. Let me

51:09

see if I can find the audio signal here. Sigma. Yeah, here

51:13

we go audio sigma.com. And actually, Todd turned me on to

51:18

be and so you know, we got to talking. And so he's now built

51:21

this thing called, Oh, these are pretty Yeah, the pod mobile. And

51:26

it was all analog, basically transistor base. And now he's

51:30

done a DSP version. And he's actually sent me one I haven't

51:33

tested and tested on his other ones. So here is a device that

51:37

is about 300 bucks. And it really does everything it does

51:40

everything your road caster can do, but limited, you know, it,

51:44

it's for one or two mics it has does have the loopback for your

51:47

computer, you can actually power it from the computer doesn't

51:50

even have an external supply. But my point is, here's here's a

51:54

an entry level device, and maybe I have to do some courseware or

51:58

something. Thank you Sam Sethi and Dobby das for getting that

52:01

set up because now that now there's a way to do it to do

52:04

courseware to help people just use your own voice to have a

52:09

good sound I just need people to your sound just has to be good.

52:13

This device I've tested these other ones of his there

52:16

dynamite. I mean, I said you should be handing this out to

52:19

Ray Ray roving radio reporters could you can clip it on your

52:22

belt, plug it into your phone, it sounds fantastic. But you

52:28

know, like we need to get back to that place and stop with the

52:32

it all has to be professional. It all has to sound big. It all

52:36

has to be perfectly you listen. I love James Cridland. The way

52:44

he speaks. I love his imperfections. I know he's I

52:47

know he has a stutter. I love that. That that makes him a

52:51

human being to me. And he and he doesn't edit it out and he could

52:56

easily do it but he doesn't. And

52:58

Dave Jones: Todd, I love I love to deliver Todd has taught

53:01

Adam Curry: us voice that is I mean, if you would go to a radio

53:05

station, they laugh you out of the building that voice No. But

53:11

that's what makes it so beautiful. And we've had these

53:14

guys who do stuff live Todd and Rob they do stuff live. And even

53:18

when they're boring me to death, I can listen to him live. It's

53:23

exciting. I can send a boost. I can I can rag on him I can. This

53:27

is where we need to get back to with podcasting. And we need to

53:31

just take a breather on this incessant non stop advertising

53:36

video. Got it? I mean, this is why no one's making money in

53:40

podcasting is because you all gotta hire an editor, Jan briny.

53:44

I love her DeVore I trained her I would say she does value for

53:49

value, but she gives away a lot of her value. Because she has

53:54

someone edit Dave Jones: for her. Yeah, that's, that's steep. Whereas

53:59

this, if Adam Curry: we just learned to be a little bit better, you

54:01

know, by doing it, go ahead and stumble and make mistakes. This

54:05

is this was the I have to credit my ex wife with my ex ex wife my

54:09

first way when I was just starting out 19 years old is on

54:14

television for the whole country is doing radio, but the

54:16

television mainly, you know, and we do the show was once a week,

54:20

half the country watch and we'd be watching at home. And I'd be

54:23

I can't believe I flubbed that I hate. Like I'm mad at myself

54:27

because I flubbed a word. I stumbled over something and she

54:30

would look at me and go, you're not a robot that makes you

54:34

human. And then I took that to heart and ever since I've just

54:39

I've given up on it and and I think I've been pretty

54:42

successful in my career. By leaving that stuff in

54:49

Dave Jones: there, they send my daughter we had this exact

54:52

conversation with my daughter last night so she's, she's in a

54:54

band. And she they had A gig at an art auction in this it was

55:04

basically like a just a background gig for these high

55:08

high dollar art auctions at this local gallery. And people were

55:13

drinking and stuff and it was his her and four of her buddies

55:17

and they played the see they played boozer made his base made

55:22

for walking Adam Curry: as Nancy Sinatra classic. Do

55:27

Dave Jones: they play creep by Radiohead.

55:30

Adam Curry: Creep I'm doing a little Dave Jones: they played well, what's the the Jets?

55:42

Adam Curry: Nana nana nana da. Well, I found out that one

55:49

Dave Jones: day didn't their dad and Adam Curry: dad. were sucking really bad now that 123 Take a

55:59

look at me. That's the one. Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember they played that one. I

56:04

can't remember the name escapes me. But they they played a nice

56:07

little set. And so after it's over, she's like, you know,

56:10

she's like, Oh, I messed up. Mr. Fong crepe. I didn't. I didn't

56:15

come in at the right at the right. Part. And I was like,

56:18

we're like, you're, you're. That's that's the beauty here.

56:22

Are Adam Curry: you gonna be my girls language? Here we go.

56:27

Yeah. Yeah, who just hit us with a baller boost. Throw on a

56:31

second. Someone hits with the baller boost. Hello, phantom

56:35

power media. Dave, this is phantom power media. Hello,

56:39

Dave, tell your daughter to apply for our bands at Bitcoin

56:42

stage in July. It's an ad. It's a native ad.

56:46

Dave Jones: I will I will deliver this message Adam Curry: I'm gonna remove it. If you guys don't stop that.

56:55

Dave Jones: Miss, she'll have to, she'll have to pay for cover

56:58

band or a cover music rights. Right? Mechanical

57:01

Adam Curry: rights. Right? Yeah, if she does that one. Yeah. But,

57:05

you Dave Jones: know, we're telling her like, Hey, this is your

57:08

you're playing with a band, you've only been playing for the

57:10

band for a couple months. This is part of this is how you learn

57:14

by failing. Yes, you know, you learn you, you you go out you.

57:18

Because that's another thing with Adam Curry: auto channel. That's another thing that screwed

57:22

everything up. Oh, so Dave Jones: much giving up control, when that's another

57:27

time that you give up control. And that's one of the things

57:30

that makes playing live with a band. So exciting. Yes. And Eric

57:36

peepee literally said the exact same thing. Same Time I Saw

57:38

that's what makes it exciting is that you don't know what's going

57:43

to happen. And you're putting your own performance in the

57:46

hands of other people. Because the drummer may screw up. And

57:50

you know what, it's your job to save that to save the drummer.

57:54

Yes. And everybody's in it together. play bass, play bass.

57:58

This band is kind of cool, because they all swap out and

58:01

play everything. Oh excheap The one of the songs she plays drums

58:05

one song she plays guitar once on that she plays bass. And they

58:09

all kind of like in between songs. They all shuffle. Which

58:13

makes it even more complicated. Of course, you're gonna miss

58:15

out. But good drummers now. Yeah, right. But anyway, that

58:21

now I think I think you're right. I think the return to

58:25

load. Podcasting is perfect for local. Because yes, like

58:30

imagining that, that, especially now that we can do live over

58:36

podcast apps. I mean, that's perfect. You. I'm just imagining

58:40

a return to that to your hospital DJ. Yep, scenario where

58:45

it's like, you know, Hey, man, floor three Myrtle and room 302.

58:49

You know, we were here he is, you know, Adam Curry: did I ever tell you what we would do with when we

58:54

had a coup, we had our show on Friday night. And I was I was

58:58

the NG I was 15. I was the engineer. So what you do is you

59:01

go before the show started, you'd hand out request forms,

59:04

which are just pieces of paper. I was 15. So that's 45 years

59:09

ago. And, and they would fill it out. And then we take those back

59:13

and we'd start the show. But the studio was in the corner of kind

59:17

of a an auditorium not huge, but you know, where they would have

59:21

like small, like a bit like a three times a conference room

59:25

just put and the window. The Double Glass was right there. So

59:31

it was in the corner so you could see people in the studio,

59:34

and the studio could see out. So what we would do is we would

59:38

actually get the kids and we would roll their beds down into

59:42

the auditorium. Oh, that's cool. And then but we were playing I

59:46

remember it well. Iggy Pop lust for life. Remember that song? I

59:50

got a lust for life. A little bit like the Jets actually. And

59:55

so while that was playing, we got and we put we play bumper

59:58

beds with the kids we'd be bummed. The beds again. I

1:00:01

actually learned how to reinsert an IV from that experience,

1:00:04

like, crap. I can't come over here. Like, we're not all over

1:00:09

the place. But yeah. And it was arguably one of the most fun

1:00:14

times of my career and was, yeah, it was. It was unpaid. It

1:00:19

was a, you know, it's just a volunteer work. But yes, there's

1:00:25

local communities of interest, community, geographic

1:00:28

communities, but I think we've come the open, wide open

1:00:32

opportunity. And I'm going to tell you something, I'm going to

1:00:35

prove this. If I even if I'm not hosting, if I'm just exec

1:00:40

producing, or whatever I am doing because it's that's part

1:00:42

of my mission is I need to find new people to do stuff. I think

1:00:48

it can be run, where it would pay for itself and that people

1:00:53

would, you know, maybe it's not a full time gig, but I think a

1:00:56

local community would support a local station, a local, a local

1:01:01

show, I think it would support that it really would. Well,

1:01:04

Dave Jones: you already did in a in the the now lost to history,

1:01:11

the last episode of podcasting 2.0 That you did a you did a

1:01:16

request a music request show. And that was arena over boosts.

1:01:22

Adam Curry: That was the most highly boosted episode ever.

1:01:25

Dave Jones: Yeah, ever of all time. Yes. And this like so

1:01:28

there's no you now have in 2.0 ABS you can now do live streams

1:01:32

and boosts and you can get that's there you go. You have

1:01:37

you have a call in request show right there. So I think you

1:01:43

know, the other thing like is my daughter, my oldest daughter,

1:01:46

she's 22. She you're the last to face her work show. Yeah, that's

1:01:54

right. We she's in she's in communications, like, mass

1:02:01

communications. And so she was told recently, basically, that I

1:02:08

forgot who this was no future kid. It was almost like that.

1:02:13

She she's made. She's majoring currently in, in mass

1:02:17

communications. And the person told her basically do not go

1:02:23

into do not think that you're going to go into local

1:02:26

television because it's dead. Oh, yeah, that's exactly what

1:02:29

you've been saying the last couple of weeks. He said local

1:02:32

local affiliates shutting down or shutting

1:02:34

Adam Curry: down. You know, chat, if just the post in the

1:02:38

boardroom, you said you just described homegrown hits. You've

1:02:40

never heard that show. It's exactly right. Also, the no

1:02:45

agenda stream which is now that's been around so long that

1:02:48

that's really become its own entity. And that is 24 hours a

1:02:51

day. But people literally tune in to hear Darren Oh, on

1:02:55

Thursdays and Sundays they tune in to hear nick the rat on

1:02:58

Wednesdays they tune the tuning in. Then you have in the smoker

1:03:02

you've got oh my goodness, beers with buds, but you know, buds

1:03:08

with buds beard and smoking buds. There's all these

1:03:12

different shows. And it's all within that same ecosystem of

1:03:17

very simple chat room, the booster grams have become super

1:03:20

important. And it's not. It's not that Darren O is retiring?

1:03:25

No, it's It's the feedback mechanism is the hey man you

1:03:28

boosted cool, you see it in the chat room, the host responds to

1:03:31

it. This is stuff that that actually will. That is working,

1:03:36

the proof is there. And we need a little more engagement, I

1:03:41

think from the hosting companies, not all and I'm not,

1:03:45

I'm generalizing to a huge degree. And I'm also extremely

1:03:48

grateful with all the hosting companies have done so far. But

1:03:53

we can do more. And Dave Jones: I don't see why these local reporters for local

1:03:57

stations couldn't just strike out on their own and do and do a

1:03:59

local oriented podcast. And Adam Curry: we'll see we'll see some of that. But a lot of that

1:04:03

a lot of that culture and attitude is not easy to break. I

1:04:07

mean, the idea that you're going from we'll be right back after

1:04:10

these messages to begging for money grifting you know, all the

1:04:16

stuff that gets thrown at your head. That's a very tough change

1:04:20

for most people. Now I wanted as a part of this since we have the

1:04:24

Phantom the Phantom people in the nmpa National Music

1:04:29

Publishers Association sent a very damning letter to Spotify

1:04:33

and this is important that pertains to us. And Jim actually

1:04:35

posted on podcast index social about this. They say let me see

1:04:43

where this is. It has come to our attention that Spotify

1:04:47

displays lyrics and reproduces and distributes music videos and

1:04:51

podcasts using musical works without the consent of or

1:04:55

compensation to the respective publisher and or administrators.

1:05:00

are members in Perkins, who control the copyrights in the

1:05:03

musical compass compositions. As such, these uses of musical

1:05:07

works on the Spotify platform are not licensed or will soon

1:05:10

become unlicensed. So this is very interesting. I'm not so

1:05:17

this is probably more about lyrics and the music videos, but

1:05:21

the fact that put podcasts in there is important because

1:05:24

you're going to see podcasts come down very quickly from

1:05:27

Spotify. And a lot of them because people are using music

1:05:32

in in so many different ways that is unlicensed, because you

1:05:36

literally can't license it from from the traditional systems.

1:05:40

And Spotify will not think twice, it'll be hooked, gone,

1:05:44

quick, gone, hook gone hook, it's gonna be they're gonna be

1:05:46

running algos on it, it's going to be gone, gone, gone. And even

1:05:51

if it's just mute, they're not even going to check and see if

1:05:54

they if it's licensed, I just going to remove it. Big

1:05:57

opportunity. The main thing we need to shore up and we have a

1:06:01

version of it, we don't have everything perfect. But I would

1:06:04

think we need to implement the music license, the remote item

1:06:08

license, whatever we call it for inclusion of a bit of someone

1:06:13

else's work in your podcast, I'd like the remote item licensed

1:06:16

better than a music license. That was the same thing. So this

1:06:21

this is not not I'm not talking about an RSS feed of songs. Now.

1:06:27

There's a whole bunch of issues that have come up that that we

1:06:31

need to discuss but purely remote item. License. Yes, you

1:06:35

can use this under the value for value auspices. The it's been

1:06:39

written, it's out there, I think it just needs to be added to the

1:06:43

namespace and link so people can include it.

1:06:47

Dave Jones: Is that the case? Honestly, no. So I feel so ill

1:06:51

equipped to deal with something like this, that I feel like I

1:06:57

need somebody else to just give me the wording to put

1:07:01

Adam Curry: to put I'm gonna, I'm gonna carry this, I'm going

1:07:03

to carry this. I'm going to carry this the

1:07:06

Dave Jones: I think the lat to me where it fell off a cliff was

1:07:10

all of a sudden it took a turn into. Yeah, and we need to be

1:07:13

able to block certain apps from being able to play certain

1:07:16

music. And I was like, Whoa, I mean that

1:07:19

Adam Curry: the Exactly. So the, the way I don't carry this Dave

1:07:23

and I will I'll get the consensus and everything. So

1:07:27

there's a couple things one, I in this is the main thing we

1:07:31

have to understand. If you have an RSS feed, and you have an

1:07:35

enclosure, and that enclosure is an mp3, there is no difference

1:07:41

between it being dry, dred Scott's ISO, a feed, no agenda,

1:07:49

three and a half hour shows, or a three minute song. In the

1:07:54

world of podcasting, they are equal, ergo, therefore, if

1:08:00

you're going to like that, as my lawyer talk, you sound like a

1:08:04

philosopher is Raha ergo, therefore, the remote item

1:08:09

license is how I view this. So it's not because it's a song.

1:08:14

Because I feel that what if I make a great joke, or there's a

1:08:19

great a great bid, and someone wants to include that in their

1:08:21

show, just as valuable to me, as someone who spent three years

1:08:25

writing a song, you may not think that's fair, but in the

1:08:28

world that we're dealing with, they're equal. And so we need

1:08:34

the mechanism, if you're going to include something in your

1:08:37

show, and it's in the realm of value for value, you should be

1:08:41

able to say from this moment in time to this moment in time,

1:08:44

switch the wallets. It's coming from over there. And I think we

1:08:49

can add into that, a minimum requirement. So you got to give

1:08:54

me minimum 50%. You know, of the value block, take more if you

1:08:59

want. I mean, I think that's and it's always all going to be

1:09:02

gentlemen's agreement, general woman's agreement, Gen Zers

1:09:06

agreement. But we need that at a minimum to protect ourselves.

1:09:13

Even though we're all going to get kicked off a Spotify and AB

1:09:16

it's all coming. This is why we built this Dave, because they

1:09:21

will not discriminate. You got music and your podcast, you're

1:09:23

done goodbye. They're not going to check. They don't care. They

1:09:27

got no infrastructure to see. It's just like YouTube, as you

1:09:30

know, like tick tock, it'd be muted, all the all these

1:09:33

problems are coming, but we can solidify for ourselves that we

1:09:38

have the agreement and we're all cool with each other.

1:09:42

Dave Jones: So you think they're gonna start taking down stuff

1:09:45

that's not even guaranteed? There's not even related to

1:09:49

this, you know, an Adam Curry: example our church which I believe so our church

1:09:54

has a worship team, which as we all know, is Christian for band.

1:09:58

So they were worship teams. And the worst is

1:10:00

Dave Jones: to drummer have the plexiglass you better believe

1:10:03

it? Adam Curry: Yes, you better believe it. Yeah, he's got the

1:10:06

cage. So the worship team licenses music, from you know,

1:10:11

there's a whole industry, and it puts the words up on the screen.

1:10:15

So everybody can sing holy, holy, holy, and hands in the

1:10:19

air, like, we just don't care. And it's license, they pay

1:10:23

rights. And those rights are also for use in recordings on on

1:10:28

YouTube. And every month, at least once YouTube takes down

1:10:34

one of the sermons because they say you got to strike because

1:10:36

you use the license work, even though they have the right to

1:10:39

use it, they have the paperwork, it's backed up, it's, it's an

1:10:43

established system, which has been going for decades, the

1:10:46

system still takes the whole thing down. So that's going to

1:10:50

happen at Spotify now. It's just going to happen. So we need our

1:10:56

stuff to be tight. So that when content producers, whether they

1:11:02

make music or audio books, or whatever it is, we need a system

1:11:08

that is fair, and and and and open and everybody can

1:11:12

participate in. Hey, I made 100, I made 100 SATs on this. Here's

1:11:17

your ad. Dave Jones: So in and the license in the feed is a signal.

1:11:24

Yes, yes. This is this has this has been covered.

1:11:29

Adam Curry: Covered. Yeah, it's just it's just like Creative

1:11:31

Commons. Except, you know, we do it under this this particular

1:11:35

license. Now. I know that we're going to run into all kinds of

1:11:39

problems down the line and disagreements, et cetera over

1:11:42

music itself. I can't deal with that right now. All I can deal

1:11:47

with is the inclusion of a remote item. That part I want to

1:11:52

shore up so that when when the Exodus takes place, people know

1:11:56

they can come here. They can come into this ecosystem, and

1:12:01

they can promote the apps that understand and do this and

1:12:04

promote the apps that give the pass the value through. We will

1:12:08

we will overcome may pleasing Grace

1:12:15

Dave Jones: shall over. Adam Curry: We will we will. So remote item license is what I'm

1:12:23

looking at. Okay, remote, so you can use this content no matter

1:12:28

what it is at as a remote item. Here's my here's my my baseline

1:12:34

requirement. And the technology actually handles most of it. The

1:12:39

technology handle, you know if it needs to be surfaced what

1:12:42

this is, you know, just like when I look at I'm at podcast

1:12:47

Guru, I look at the sidestream music podcast by the way, Cody's

1:12:50

a great great episode this week was music Tony Hawk screwed up

1:12:55

on and didn't put it in his in his game. Really good as read

1:12:59

all the funny music. Yeah, it's very first great promotion. I

1:13:03

can go on, I hit the V for V tab and I see all the songs. I could

1:13:07

save those songs to a playlist, I could boost them separately, I

1:13:10

can play them separately, I can get into the arts and that that

1:13:13

stuff that technology, that remote item Thank you Alec says

1:13:16

is taken care of, is taken care of all that is done. So our

1:13:23

stuff will be tight. So that whenever anybody thinks they're

1:13:27

gonna come and mess with us, they won't even come be that let

1:13:30

those guys play over there. They're not the real music industry. Okay. Well, we've we've got, we've got some kind

1:13:36

of, you know, what, what is the Dave Jones: remote item license actually protect against

1:13:41

Adam Curry: protects against nothing. It's an agreement the

1:13:45

EU. It's just like a Creative Commons. If you really want to

1:13:49

take someone to court, you can create and I've, I've, I've

1:13:54

proven the Creative Commons copyright works in court for

1:13:58

that very reason. But it still comes down to a basic

1:14:04

understanding and agreement like everything, it's only as good as

1:14:07

the paper it's written on. Dave Jones: And this is

1:14:13

Adam Curry: this wood. It's not protecting against it really

1:14:16

doesn't protect you against anything except someone using it

1:14:20

and not passing on any payment to you. But we have no cops.

1:14:26

We're never gonna have cops to go out there. But you can say,

1:14:29

Hey, man, this is under the remote item license. So would

1:14:33

you please make sure that you put that into your feed

1:14:36

properly? That's really all that you can do in

1:14:38

Dave Jones: that, so so it's a matter of if you're going to use

1:14:42

this, you need to use a remote value split.

1:14:45

Adam Curry: Yes. And to answer cotton gins question. Yes, the

1:14:49

splits. The splits accomplish this, but it's it gives you a

1:14:54

little bit of backup with a legal document and I think we

1:14:56

should have a minimum requirement and the minimum

1:14:59

should always be baseline 5050. But as you can say, You know

1:15:03

what I'll I'll say I'll settle for or do I want 90%? Now, can

1:15:10

you stop someone from doing it? No, you'd have to bring action

1:15:15

against them. But guess what? This isn't a world. This is

1:15:19

about just making it clear what I'd like and what that I want

1:15:22

this system in play, it's solidifying, what splits are

1:15:26

it's solidifying what the remote item is? Yes, please use my

1:15:31

content in this manner. Here's the requirements that I have. If

1:15:36

you want protection code, ASCAP, BMI, sia EA

1:15:40

Dave Jones: keeps you from built. I think I'm understanding

1:15:42

this now because it was just, I think, kind of what you're

1:15:45

saying is it keeps you from having to build essentially the

1:15:50

exact same structure that already exists exactly. Again,

1:15:54

which which has which will have the exact same problems as the

1:15:59

other system course. It's centralized and, and punitive.

1:16:05

Yes. Adam Curry: Very punitive. Now, if you think you're gonna get

1:16:09

rich by anyone thinks they're gonna get rich, by all means,

1:16:12

don't have your music played on podcast, don't get it played

1:16:15

anywhere, you know, put it into iTunes and have fun. Good luck.

1:16:19

Absolutely. If you want to have an audience, and you want to

1:16:23

have value returned to you. That's why you're with us. Yeah,

1:16:30

there's not enough room in the world for all the people to be

1:16:33

successful and making you know, quit your job money. Look at

1:16:39

this podcast 180 episodes not quitting any job. For sure, but

1:16:45

I love what I do and I love my truck.

1:16:50

Dave Jones: There's no there's not there's not a the Creator

1:16:56

middle class is just, it's never going to be a thing. No. Well, I

1:17:02

Adam Curry: don't think you can I think you know, touring I

1:17:05

think you can do a lot. You know, a lot of people have a lot

1:17:09

of love for what they do. No doubt about it. I mean, we're an

1:17:14

unrestrictive system where you know, the traditional systems

1:17:18

are all that Why is everything failing because they no longer

1:17:21

control the distribution once podcasting came in distribution

1:17:24

was open Why does everybody wants to the move to YouTube why

1:17:29

because they control the distribution move to Spotify,

1:17:32

because they control the distribution they controlled it

1:17:35

but that's the way it's always work and those days are just

1:17:38

oversee the billion dollar Spotify blue

1:17:43

Dave Jones: at this, this actually sort of tend sort of

1:17:48

tangents into a kind of wanted to talk about that Jack Dorsey

1:17:52

interview. Did you read that? I did. The one in pirate wire.

1:17:56

Adam Curry: I did. I read the whole thing. You bet. Dave Jones: That he said this has some stuff in there. That

1:18:02

was pretty pretty noteworthy to me. I think they're all so let's

1:18:11

see. The you talking about this? It kind of reminded me of, of

1:18:18

him. He talked some about blue sky. He says, here's one thing

1:18:24

he said. He said what is the anti Twitter? He's talking

1:18:33

about? Blue Sky says what what happened is people started

1:18:35

seeing blue skies, something to run to away from Twitter. It's

1:18:40

the thing that's not Twitter. Therefore, it's great. And blue

1:18:43

sky saw this exodus of people from Twitter show up. And it was

1:18:47

a very, very common crowd. It was designed to be controlled by

1:18:51

the people. But little by little they started asking J she's the

1:18:55

CEO. Yeah. And the team for moderation tools and to kick

1:18:59

people off. And unfortunately, they follow through with it.

1:19:02

Everything we wanted around decentralization, everything we

1:19:05

wanted, in terms of an open source protocol suddenly became

1:19:08

a company with VCs and a board. That's not what I wanted. And

1:19:13

that's not what I intended to help create. Around the same

1:19:16

time I found noster. We don't know who the leader is. It's

1:19:19

like this anonymous Brazilian guy. It has no board, no company

1:19:23

behind it, no funding. It's a truly open protocol. The

1:19:26

development environment is moving fast. I gave a bunch of

1:19:28

and I gave him a bunch of money to them. Okay, so that's, that's

1:19:32

the quote. And he seems to be defining. I've got a few things

1:19:39

to say about this. But he seems to be defining openness as a

1:19:43

protocol that is not backed by any company. To him it if it's

1:19:51

if it has a company and control of it, it's not truly open.

1:19:56

Adam Curry: I find that to be true. This is why I liked

1:20:00

Bitcoin no CEO. Right? This is why I like RSS no CEO. But

1:20:06

Dave Jones: do you think that that's is that always the case,

1:20:09

though? And I'm gonna bring this back around to what we're

1:20:12

talking about Adam Curry: tell you why I think it's always the case because

1:20:15

it's never been the case. Bitcoin Bitcoin was the first

1:20:20

for me, even though I've come to appreciate RSS equally when you

1:20:27

have something that is truly just a format or a protocol,

1:20:31

either way. And I and to a degree, I think activity Pub is

1:20:35

that as well. These are the things that are being

1:20:39

implemented and used by people because they can, because they

1:20:43

don't need to pay a developer fee or do any of this stuff.

1:20:48

Anybody can do it. That was That was always the the idea behind

1:20:51

RSS and you people will come to me, man now. So do you have your

1:20:55

own plane? We're talking about God, you invented RSS. You

1:21:01

invented podcast, and then a podcast to bro, if we had done

1:21:04

that it would have gone nowhere. No one would be using it. The

1:21:08

whole point is that it just is. It just is.

1:21:12

Dave Jones: And now and when you're talking and he started, he started talking about licensing fees, and these guys,

1:21:16

NAD that's understand that. But is like blue sky doesn't have

1:21:23

Hold on. Adam Curry: I didn't talk about a licensing fee. But you mean in

1:21:26

regards to the music stuff? Dave Jones: No, no, I'm talking, you said, you know, royalty like

1:21:31

fees for implementation. And like developer

1:21:35

Adam Curry: like API access developer, you have to toolkit

1:21:39

and all this kind of stuff. But Dave Jones: that's see that's in that's where I'm, that's, that's

1:21:44

the interesting issue here is blue sky is a published

1:21:47

protocol. You can implement it yourself just like you can

1:21:52

activity pub. It's a it's just an it's an open specification.

1:21:59

And in that sense, it's no different than noster. You know,

1:22:05

but he has, he's saying he has a problem with it.

1:22:07

Adam Curry: Okay, well, can we separate a couple of things

1:22:09

because I also see stuff in the boardroom being discussed.

1:22:14

There's a difference between a protocol and the implementation.

1:22:19

So when I say activity piled right away, yeah, but there's

1:22:24

all kinds of lib tardes are Mastodon Mastodon is not

1:22:27

activity, pub nostre. The Social Network is not Nasir the

1:22:32

protocol to see the the the mistake, the big mistake of

1:22:39

nostre was the social network. Because only people in this

1:22:44

boardroom and not everybody even understand that there's more to

1:22:49

that than the implementation. So the implementation of RSS was

1:22:55

initially only blogs. I think if you say RSS people still think

1:23:00

blogs, they don't think podcasts, they certainly don't

1:23:03

think music distribution, or audio books, or courseware, or

1:23:08

any of that stuff. If that's the hardest thing we're doing right

1:23:11

now is we're we're moving people away from thinking this is just

1:23:15

for blogs, we're just for podcasting. And this can be for

1:23:19

all kinds of distribution. That's the hardest thing we're

1:23:22

doing. Dave Jones: See, okay, so he says to backup at the second he

1:23:28

says, he says in another prices. So what if we created a team

1:23:32

that was independent to us, he's talking about when he was at

1:23:35

Twitter that built a protocol that Twitter could use and then

1:23:40

build on top of, then we would wouldn't have the same

1:23:44

liabilities because the protocol would be an open standard, like

1:23:47

HTTP or SMTP. Twitter would become the interface and we can

1:23:51

build valuable business by competing to be the best view on

1:23:54

top of this massive corpus of conversation that's happening in

1:23:57

real time. And, you know, he says, he says, I know it's early

1:24:03

and noster is weird and hard to use. But if you truly believe in

1:24:05

censorship, resistance and free speech, you have to use

1:24:08

technologies that actually enable them to change arise,

1:24:11

blah, blah, blah, because these, those are technologies, no

1:24:13

company or government can compromise. The corporations can

1:24:17

be compromised, and they have been, I

1:24:19

Adam Curry: think there's a difference between Okay, let me

1:24:23

take mercy because I hear what you're saying. I hear what he's

1:24:25

saying. And I think he's incorrect in some things. I do

1:24:29

to Twitter started as an RSS based system. Where and that's

1:24:37

why that failed all the time, because they tried to centralize

1:24:40

RSS, where if they came out of Mike, the first term was

1:24:45

microblogging. So we all had blogs. And it was kind of a

1:24:49

groovy system, because we had a product called Google Reader,

1:24:54

but there are many others. And when that never got to flourish

1:24:58

that business online Like podcast apps that enable that

1:25:03

that created the product out of the protocol. Dorsey is

1:25:07

interspersing, the censorship resistant nature of a protocol

1:25:14

that allows you to communicate with social media, which is a

1:25:18

shit product. Yes, that's the problem. Social media is a

1:25:23

horrible product. It's a horrible product. I can't put it

1:25:27

any other. Now. You take activity pub in the context of a

1:25:32

reasonably close system, like podcasts index dot social, it's

1:25:36

an okay product. And I have an account, just podcast index dot

1:25:41

social, and I have ad server level have blocked certain

1:25:45

instances. And from time to time I go through it and go nope,

1:25:48

nope, I go to the public timeline. Nope. Because I

1:25:52

protect our community. So it actually functions as a

1:25:56

reasonable product for for the mission that we have. But are we

1:26:02

really doing social media there? No. In fact, I've asked some

1:26:06

people I said, Hey, could you not post that here? Because

1:26:09

that's just going to create a whole conversation that has

1:26:13

nothing to do with what we're doing here. It's

1:26:15

Dave Jones: more in podcasting index dot social is more like

1:26:18

just a big version of GitHub discussions. Yeah, yeah. Oh,

1:26:21

Adam Curry: yeah. A little less stringent, I think but yeah,

1:26:24

Dave Jones: it's very, it's just so hyper specific to one to kind

1:26:29

of one topic that it keeps some of the and and your moderation

1:26:33

on the back end. Keep some of that away.

1:26:36

Adam Curry: So what Dorsey's mistake is, in my opinion, this

1:26:41

he is equating free speech and censorship resistant speech with

1:26:47

a social network. No, the hard No, because it's not it's a crap

1:26:52

show, as people arguing, then, you know, it's like comments,

1:26:56

comments, depending on how you on how they're displayed, even

1:27:02

that determines the product of something that can be censorship

1:27:05

resistant. So podcasting is censorship resistant. And it's

1:27:10

but it's very different. And you can use RSS for a social

1:27:14

network, the see what Twitter did in the beginning, but that's

1:27:18

a crap product. Podcasting is a podcast apps are outstanding

1:27:22

product, people like them. People use them. Wherever you

1:27:26

get your podcast, it's a great distribution mechanism. So we

1:27:30

have to, we have to make a distinction between the protocol

1:27:35

and the product. Whoo, there you go.

1:27:38

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, I think I think and I think that's, I

1:27:41

think that's where I'm struggling with what he's saying

1:27:44

and where I disagree with him is you can have, you can have open

1:27:48

protocols that are developed by private companies. I mean,

1:27:53

that's just the protocol itself. I mean, it's take the iTunes

1:28:01

namespace was open, we're all allowed to use it. It's not like

1:28:05

the it's not like the USBC. Right, but you can't get one

1:28:09

kangaroo. Adam Curry: But it holds everybody back. Because I like

1:28:14

the podcast namespace. Where there's no, there's no, there's

1:28:19

no other incentive other than just to keep the servers

1:28:23

running. Yeah, and no one. Well, I guess, technically, it's all

1:28:29

it's only as good as the people but when you have a corporation,

1:28:32

corporations have boards, corporations have targets

1:28:35

corporations have to make money corporations have a reason for

1:28:37

existence, podcast index, dot LLC podcast index, LLC, that has

1:28:44

one mission to make itself unnecessary, to destroy, destroy

1:28:50

itself. That is that is our ultimate mission. In the

1:28:53

meantime, keep everything running, but have a backstop. So

1:28:56

if we all keel over, then the servers keep running on AutoPay,

1:29:00

etc. But the mission is to make ourselves obsolete. And I think

1:29:04

we stated that clearly. With all these, all these censorship

1:29:08

resistant things, which protect us mainly from corporate

1:29:13

corporate from the corporate world. Dave Jones: They said because, okay, he says, He's talking

1:29:20

about Blue Sky says it was the anti Twitter. And he's talking

1:29:23

about how why he left blue skies. So he deleted his

1:29:26

account. He left blue sky. He says it was the anti Twitter

1:29:29

people were literally running from Twitter to blue sky. And

1:29:32

that's not a way to build something successful, sir. So he

1:29:36

says, Adam Curry: but they weren't running from they weren't

1:29:40

running away from Twitter to blue sky, the protocol. They

1:29:43

were running to the product, blue sky product. Yeah.

1:29:46

Dave Jones: And so he talks about surviving. And this is

1:29:49

where it this is what really, this is where I'm bringing it

1:29:51

back around a little bit because he says, he says, All that said,

1:29:57

I really respect J she's the blue sky. As CEO, she was under

1:30:02

a lot of pressure to survive. Yeah. And he's talking about,

1:30:07

you know, when they started doing moderation and this kind

1:30:10

of thing. It it's like he says, he says it's such a crazy thing.

1:30:17

It seems like the core leadership team at Twitter around you was just told this is the question the the guy asking

1:30:23

Dorsey the question. He says it seems like the core leadership

1:30:26

team at Twitter around you was just totally opposed to elements

1:30:30

throughout the company from the sales team to the board. It's

1:30:32

almost as if the company were fundamentally in conflict with

1:30:35

itself. He says it was also pretty reactive to what was

1:30:41

happening the world well, Adam Curry: because sent to be censorship resistant, there has

1:30:47

to be zero financial incentive. And by definition, if you have a

1:30:51

company, you're going to have financial incentive one way or

1:30:54

the other. Dave Jones: And, and I want this idea, he said that she was under

1:30:59

a lot of pressure to survive as a company. I think you said it

1:31:06

fine, earlier. But I mean, just to state it more clearly. Let's

1:31:11

set a goal to never try to survive as a company.

1:31:15

Adam Curry: No, we actually our goal is to destroy ourselves

1:31:19

that yeah, that's even better. That's the best goal ever.

1:31:23

Dave Jones: If podcast index dies, they just dies. I was

1:31:26

Adam Curry: talking to someone today. And you know, who want to

1:31:29

use the podcasts index as a back end? And which, you know, a lot

1:31:35

of a lot of people in this boardroom do. And I think

1:31:39

because there's a relationship, and there's several years of

1:31:42

history, now, people know what, you know, know, us know, how we

1:31:46

operate, know what we do and what we don't do. And they trust

1:31:50

us, there's a trust, there's a huge trust factor there. And I

1:31:54

don't think we've ever violated that trust. And I don't know,

1:31:56

there's just that we're just, we're good guys, now. But

1:32:01

someone from the outside says, hey, you know, so what happens?

1:32:04

If podcasts index goes away, there goes my business, because

1:32:08

I'm trusting that to be the back end. And I always say, Well, let

1:32:13

me tell you, first of all, we have $28,000 in cash in the

1:32:19

bank, and that money is on auto pay than that. And you know, it

1:32:24

costs real money to keep everything running every single

1:32:27

day, every single month. And we're expanding, and we'll need

1:32:30

more over time. But in general, we think three to five years,

1:32:34

this, if we got no, if the money stopped today, we could have

1:32:38

three to five years, it would continue, there'd be no extra

1:32:41

development, et cetera. But that would be it. Dave and Adam,

1:32:44

don't take any of that money for personal use. But I said within

1:32:50

that three to five years, we hope that there's just an index

1:32:54

space is just out there, then and you don't have to rely on

1:32:58

us, it will be just like, Tor, you know, or hash space, or

1:33:02

whatever it is, it will be, it will just be the way to get in,

1:33:07

there will be will be the way to get it out will be and this is

1:33:10

what things like pod ping and activity pub and we're figuring

1:33:14

all this out and things will know it's our mission, it's our

1:33:18

ultimate mission to make ourselves obsolete. So

1:33:20

podcasting will just be it won't be a place where accompany it

1:33:25

will be podcasting. It's just there, tap in

1:33:30

Dave Jones: it, to podcasts and to 1.2 point oh will survive

1:33:34

because it doesn't need any money. Right? The indexes,

1:33:38

podcasts index does need money. And if and if the market

1:33:43

determines it should die, then Adam Curry: it'll die. That's fine. It's not gonna, it's not

1:33:46

gonna. And Dave Jones: here's why. And here's what happens that the day

1:33:50

that the day that that does happen, I cut everything down to

1:33:56

the bone. We can run, we can run just we can run core services

1:34:01

for about $300 a month. And, you know, with with, with

1:34:07

Adam Curry: restricted restrictions on API access, I'm

1:34:10

Dave Jones: sure right, yeah. And that'll and that'll take

1:34:13

along for a long time. Maybe Adam Curry: we just put out a database every week. I don't

1:34:17

know. It could be any number of things. We could

1:34:20

Dave Jones: do that for I could do that paying for it myself out

1:34:22

of my own wallet. So the unknown I'm not worried about that the

1:34:27

it's just we're you know trying to survive as a company and like

1:34:33

Keep it keep yourself from dying. I mean, that's where all

1:34:36

the bad stuff starts. You know, that's that's yeah, that's where

1:34:41

things start to always go wrong. Yes,

1:34:46

Adam Curry: that's exactly right. It's always goes wrong.

1:34:50

Yeah, Dave Jones: so I'm just like, you know, the world the world

1:34:52

moves on things go away. So if we are you know, if for some

1:34:56

reason, the the economy just completely The tanked and

1:35:00

everybody's in the funding for the index data. This one we'll

1:35:03

move on. But, you know, he, he said something else about brand

1:35:08

advertising. He said, But this is this. I do agree with him. He

1:35:13

says, I think the core critical sin was choosing the advertising

1:35:18

model to begin with brand advertising is not like direct

1:35:21

advertisements, right, which is more programmatic. It requires

1:35:24

something like a Disney to essentially do you a favor,

1:35:28

because the only because the only players that matter to them

1:35:32

are Google and Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, everything

1:35:35

else doesn't matter. And these are ads, they're essentially

1:35:39

throw away money for them. But we made that choice in order to

1:35:42

go public. Yeah, Adam Curry: that's right. These are and that was to satisfy the

1:35:48

initial investors and you go all the way back up the chain.

1:35:52

Dave Jones: He said, we needed a model, Facebook's model was

1:35:55

really good. So we came up with an ad program and ran with it.

1:35:59

And I came back to the company a year after the IPO, and we were

1:36:02

seeing a decline in growth. And that manifested in the decline

1:36:06

in ad revenue. So our first focus was to rework the product.

1:36:09

So we were growing again. And then second was to get off this

1:36:12

dependency on advertisement. And when you're entirely dependent

1:36:16

on that, if a brand like Procter and Gamble, or Unilever doesn't

1:36:19

like what's happening on your platform, you're totally

1:36:21

threatened to pull the budget with accounts, which accounts

1:36:24

for like 20% of your revenue, you have no choice. Yeah,

1:36:27

Adam Curry: in that interview, he also says that it was easy

1:36:29

for Elon to fire half the company, because half the

1:36:32

company was in sales. You know, and all and trust me when I say

1:36:38

that the largest military contractor in the world, Elon

1:36:41

Musk, because that's what he is looking at his real businesses.

1:36:46

His mission is not to give you freedom of speech is just the

1:36:49

cost of doing business for him. By the way, he's giving you

1:36:52

freedom of speech, not freedom of reach. That's also in that

1:36:55

article, which is true. And I see that all the time. Hey, no,

1:37:00

no, I get no numbers on this post. You know, okay, fine. I

1:37:03

wonder why. All he's doing is making sure there's enough

1:37:09

excitement and action around x to keep everybody engaged as he

1:37:14

rolls out. His Kwazii podcasting infrastructure is make money on

1:37:21

your writing infrastructure. So he's trying to be substack. He's

1:37:24

trying to be trying to be Patreon, but not really not

1:37:28

really with subscriptions. But he'll roll that out. And it all

1:37:31

comes down to he wants to be your bank. He's got 38 Money

1:37:35

transmitter licenses, he'll have them all. And if there's not

1:37:39

enough action around his his x.com, he'll post something

1:37:43

outrageous to start up again. He just needs to keep everybody

1:37:47

engaged and on Twitter all the time, until he has everything

1:37:51

rolled out so he can be your bank. That's it. That's it. He

1:37:55

wants to be your bank. Dave Jones: It here's the quote you were talking about. He says

1:38:03

it was a brand advertising business and a brand advertising

1:38:06

business needs a huge sales staff. Over 50 to 60% of Twitter

1:38:10

employees were in sales. Yeah,

1:38:13

Adam Curry: there you go. There you go. But, but But make no

1:38:17

mistake, this is not about Ilan trying to give you freedom of

1:38:20

speech. No, no, no, no. By the way, can I just do a quick

1:38:24

namespace thing here? Oh, yeah, sure. Well, I'm not going to

1:38:27

play the jingle. Leslie Leslie has been emailing me. We got a

1:38:32

long distance dedication from Lesley Lesley says that she is

1:38:37

working on audio books. And she has a request for the season

1:38:44

tag. Which I thought was quite reasonable. Because I'm like,

1:38:48

Oh, by the way we updated season, we got season taxes.

1:38:50

Yeah, but it's not enough. I will quote from her

1:38:53

correspondence with me. I know that most hosting companies

1:38:57

support season numbers. But what would also be helpful is if we

1:39:01

could get a season level art and titles. Oh, she says I think

1:39:06

that would be a great help for audio books. And maybe even for

1:39:09

musicians, as they could put multiple works out as seasons

1:39:13

within a single feed and distinguish between them, rather

1:39:16

than having separate feeds for each.

1:39:19

Dave Jones: I think that's a neat idea. Adam Curry: I think it's an interesting way to look at it.

1:39:22

And we were just because she says you know, I can't afford to

1:39:25

have a new RSS feed for every single audiobook. So you gotta

1:39:31

Dave Jones: get people to subscribe to. Yeah. Because that

1:39:35

should just be an attribute on the optional attributes,

1:39:39

Adam Curry: optional attributes. So optional image and title I

1:39:42

think is what she's specifically asking for. And I said we

1:39:46

already have titles and titles we have but she wants art. Do we

1:39:50

have because I looked at it. Are you sure we have title?

1:39:53

Dave Jones: We have name you can name a season or you can name a

1:39:56

season. Like as names. Let me go to the GitHub brief thoughts on

1:40:03

point o season man

1:40:07

Adam Curry: that James Kerguelen his podcast namespace.org Sure

1:40:11

pops up at the top of the OGS now I liked that let me see

1:40:16

because I have season Dave Jones: it's the name attribute.

1:40:20

Adam Curry: Okay let me see Dave Jones: in the examples like podcast season Yeah,

1:40:27

Adam Curry: yeah yeah name equals yes name. So episode art

1:40:32

Dave Jones: Yes. So we just need an image URL attribute and

1:40:35

Adam Curry: hosting companies apparently are still only

1:40:38

offering the old iTunes namespace I guess the number the

1:40:44

season yeah for the season number but the people want names

1:40:47

and name title and image

1:40:50

Dave Jones: so I think we shouldn't want it to get against people what they will go on it there's

1:40:53

Adam Curry: a customer to customer customer waiting for

1:40:57

you right there. Podcasting 2.0 podcast we deliver customers to

1:41:02

you. You're gonna play a song. Oh yeah, let's do that right

1:41:06

now. Dave Jones: Thank you for reminding write this up as a as

1:41:09

an issue on GitHub while you're playing while I'm playing the

1:41:11

song. Adam Curry: Okay, good. I think I got this one from either the

1:41:15

Phantom music power hour I got it from the side street music

1:41:18

podcast another banger for a Friday everybody Tony Salamone

1:41:22

with red light of podcasting live

1:41:25

Unknown: on offense to the sky affair face first into the

1:41:32

concrete. Logging into my brain

1:42:33

changed and shaped?

1:43:40

Supernatural it's

1:43:51

the days Baby

1:44:42

Adam Curry: Tony Salamone red lights podcasting. 2.0 if you

1:44:45

boost if you didn't boost go back, rewind boost. Tell him you

1:44:49

heard it on podcasting. 2.0 That's a good one. That's a

1:44:53

great song. I love that track.

1:44:57

Dave Jones: Add an image href attribute to the season tag for

1:44:59

SC Have Adam Curry: you got it in? Alright, you nailed it, I

1:45:03

Dave Jones: get it in, I got it. That's

1:45:05

Adam Curry: how we write one song. And we've updated the

1:45:07

namespace Beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. I love it.

1:45:13

Cool. Good. Anything else for the board meeting here?

1:45:18

Dave Jones: I got some stuff that we can wait. We always push

1:45:21

Adam Curry: every now next week, there's no board meeting because

1:45:23

I'm on the road. I can't do it next week. So that's true that I

1:45:27

need to do is I'd rather go long today. And then

1:45:31

Dave Jones: that's alright, I've got I didn't get much

1:45:34

accomplished this week, I'd planned on getting the resolver

1:45:38

built for the I didn't get much of a chance to code this week.

1:45:42

But I want to get the that we need a resolver for translating

1:45:51

a key send addresses? Oh, you know, so that you can look up

1:45:57

like, David Get out b.com and convert it back to a to a note

1:46:01

Id we need that. But I want to make it where apps like cast

1:46:08

ematic can just send one request for a whole bunch of addresses,

1:46:13

you know, and like we do the resolution for it. You could you

1:46:18

could just do send off like 10 of these addresses, we would

1:46:21

resolve them back in one call. Yeah. And do the caching and all

1:46:27

that nice. Nice. I want to make that easy for everybody for

1:46:31

lists. Yeah, apps. Yeah. But before we put cuz I want to get

1:46:36

that key send address thing into the value recipient tag on June

1:46:39

1. But I don't. But I don't want to do it without giving the

1:46:44

serverless apps a fallback? Yes, as we always do. So so that's

1:46:50

the next thing on my list. And we'll talk about that. Okay,

1:46:53

I'll get it done while while you're Adam Curry: gone two weeks. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sorry,

1:46:57

everybody. And Alex is working

1:46:59

Dave Jones: on a top secret project for us. So. Yeah. Put

1:47:06

for pod payments. Adam Curry: Do you put them under NDA? Indie. So we can't

1:47:12

talk about it. So we can't talk about it. And yeah, it'd be fun,

1:47:15

Dave Jones: but sign the document. Here, Alex on this. I

1:47:21

know what Adam Curry: you'd say sign this. Yes. I was just as I was playing

1:47:28

that song. I'm just I'm just like jamming out to the song. I

1:47:31

remember because the last episode, when you lost power at

1:47:35

the office, and I played tracks for two or three hours. That was

1:47:39

more fun. I had just because we've been talking about I've

1:47:42

been reminiscing My mind has been going back and forth in

1:47:44

history. That was more fun. For me as a music disc jockey than

1:47:51

any shift I ever did on Z 100 The biggest radio station in New

1:47:55

York at the time. In fact, I wasn't. Why because I was almost

1:47:59

it was like it was lonely. You know, you're just talking into

1:48:03

Mica. Hey, I live in New York. But there's nothing coming back.

1:48:06

There was no there was no chat room. There was no booster grams

1:48:11

there was you know, we had requests and so on the back

1:48:13

would take a request and wasn't really a request anyway. We just

1:48:17

pretend to like yeah, okay, this, this is what's next in the

1:48:20

computer. So we're playing this. Dave Jones: You don't even have Buzzsprout fan mail.

1:48:26

Adam Curry: Let's, let's thank a few people, shall we? Let's use

1:48:29

our own fan mail here. We have lots of live booths that came in

1:48:33

3438 from Billy Bones. says thank you for the boardroom

1:48:36

meetings. It makes me excited for podcasting. 2.0 Well, you're

1:48:40

welcome. And you're a part of it. Billy Bones. We're all part

1:48:42

of the Billy Graham anonymous 3333 We got Mike Dell 1701

1:48:48

hamvention booths from Dayton Ohio. 70 threes, keto eight Lima

1:48:52

Mike Juliet at the hamvention forgot all about that. Yes, 73

1:48:58

is kilo five Alpha Charlie Charlie beaconing every 15

1:49:00

minutes on bar ac 20 meters. We got the heartburn we got the 777

1:49:07

from Sam Sethi. True fans has the remote item license working

1:49:12

for example. She does for example, we have it working for

1:49:15

all phantom power music artists. We have plans to use it with

1:49:18

clips next so you grant a license for other podcasts to

1:49:21

use your audio in another podcast and get paid like music.

1:49:25

Beautiful Sam. Thank you let's let's can we can you post

1:49:31

somewhere short. Just to document how that how that

1:49:34

showed up like hub that pops up so other apps can see it. That

1:49:39

would be great. This is perfect. See, I told you I would carry

1:49:41

this it's so easy. The work is done for me. Done. Shred word

1:49:46

part of the dorsal verse 1000 SATs genuine variety and organic

1:49:50

goodness is King not perfection and sounding like everybody

1:49:53

else. We call it here in the Dorko verse Nashville called

1:49:57

when you stick to the template Amen brother

1:50:00

Dave Jones: That's right is that the is like the NAM when you're

1:50:02

Nashville Nashville sound when

1:50:05

Adam Curry: you're perfect. Last night, this is another another

1:50:09

writing on the wall. So we were going to tune in to our favorite

1:50:12

show. Cheers. We're on season nine, we're almost done.

1:50:16

Dave Jones: Oh, you're close. Adam Curry: We've been binging. And so I pop open, because you

1:50:21

know, you can get it on Paramount plus through Amazon,

1:50:25

whatever. And right at the top, oh, there's the American Country

1:50:31

Music Awards. Live on Amazon. So we pop it, you know, it's like,

1:50:35

okay. And it was just uncomfortable to watch. It was

1:50:39

so because it's so like, structured and you know, they

1:50:44

have ads, of course. And so it's all tight on a timeline. It's

1:50:48

unnatural. You know, I love Reba McIntyre. But, you know, she's

1:50:52

hosting again. And you know, and it's just, it's they're trying

1:50:56

to make this tight, tight show. And it's this, this, you know,

1:51:00

robotic, doesn't feel like podcasting where it's crazy to

1:51:04

control. Dave Jones: You know, I hear songs. Sometimes I'll ever and

1:51:09

honestly Taylor Swift's catalog is like this. You just know that

1:51:14

in five years minimum AI will be able to recreate songs this

1:51:22

dinner just exactly like that. They sound no different. They're

1:51:26

just like, like vacuous. Couldn't Adam Curry: do it already. You can do it already. And there's

1:51:30

no love. There's no soul. It's soulless. Yeah,

1:51:33

Dave Jones: there's, do you know what's, you know? What is it?

1:51:38

Well, so we've been rewatching X Files. Adam Curry: Yeah, yes. You're done with the with the musicals.

1:51:43

You're onto X Files now. Dave Jones: Now we're intermixing we're mixing it up.

1:51:48

Now. We've heard we've been watching musicals too. But do

1:51:52

you know what's great about those old shows from 80s 90s?

1:51:56

You don't see any computers anywhere?

1:52:00

Adam Curry: It's all analog. Dave Jones: That's right people people's desks have like pens

1:52:04

and paper and a phone Adam Curry: Sam Sam Malone in cheers has a little black book

1:52:11

with all those babes all those babes in it? Yes.

1:52:13

Dave Jones: All the babes so true. Adam Curry: It's awesome. Blueberry 77 777 member berry

1:52:20

booths for Dave Oh, then we had the phantom power media 10,000

1:52:26

SATs we read that one Dave tell your daughter to apply for bands

1:52:29

at Bitcoin stage in July. Good idea. Eric peepee was sent the

1:52:33

boob boost which did come through 808 CELTA Crayon 777.

1:52:39

Howdy boardroom Dave don't get me started on docking station

1:52:42

firmware. Weekly we are updating those because they are well past

1:52:45

the 12 month mark. The Thunderbolt ones are the worst

1:52:48

culprit so far job security, right go podcast and contests.

1:52:53

We love job security as a chat F with his 777 boosts and I hit

1:53:01

the delimiter There we go. Oh,

1:53:03

Dave Jones: we got a new subscriber $10 a month from

1:53:06

Timothy voice well then Adam Curry: haven't used that one in a while. You've been deep

1:53:13

fried Dave Jones: midribs kid right? Adam Curry: Yes it is.

1:53:16

Dave Jones: That's a little drip this dribbling. We got a Z

1:53:22

that's our only one off Pay Pal this week but we guess boosts

1:53:27

get Steve Wilkinson aka CG works. striper boost 7777

1:53:34

through cast ematic skillet boost. Maybe we can get a John

1:53:38

Cooper screen skillet Adam Curry: boost. That's our semi striper boost. Yes. Okay.

1:53:48

Dave Jones: We got Andrew Gromit. No 2222 Road ducks hello

1:53:52

and wherever app nice this top secret app I've

1:53:56

Adam Curry: ever tried that thing out. It's amazing. It's

1:53:59

basically wherever Yes, basically a framework of every

1:54:02

everything that we have in podcasting. 2.0 just smashed

1:54:06

into one web app. Dave Jones: We're gonna get him on the show, do you? Yes, of

1:54:10

course. Adam Curry: Of course. Of course. Andrew, you're up, bro.

1:54:15

You're up. You're on. You're gonna be on the show. I can't

1:54:17

wait to catch up with him. I can't wait. We got some we got

1:54:20

stories a bit. You hear stories that I have forgotten? No. In

1:54:23

fact, I guarantee you he has stories that I've forgotten.

1:54:26

That'll be a good one. Let's get him on.

1:54:30

Dave Jones: Okay, we got Andrew Andrews on deck. He says he says

1:54:34

this rocks heard on Podcast, episode 179.

1:54:38

Adam Curry: Yes. And Andrew Thank you. He's got everything

1:54:40

set. You know, the wherever app booths come through, and I can

1:54:45

see what song it was for and I think he I don't know that that

1:54:50

yeah, has the reply function working which is great. I love

1:54:52

that too. I love replying to boost i Every morning I come and

1:54:56

say oh, can I reply to this? Oh, can I reply and because it's

1:54:59

split Usually I'm sending people back more than I received.

1:55:05

Dave Jones: You're losing money. Adam Curry: I'm losing money on it, but I love it.

1:55:10

Dave Jones: To 237 That is the number of unread emails I have

1:55:14

in my podcast index mailbox. All Adam Curry: right, I'm plugging along, brother. I'm taking care

1:55:19

of most of them when I can. Oh, yeah. Dave Jones: I'll say Jacob J, K, ob 1234. Booths through pod

1:55:28

verse, he says, great tunes. Thank you, Jake. By

1:55:31

Adam Curry: the way, the the update ability of the dashboard.

1:55:35

Now the control dashboard is great, because now I can change

1:55:40

someone's Feed URL

1:55:43

Dave Jones: that's working for you. Yes, Adam Curry: yes. And now, if the if the feed is already in there

1:55:48

double, you have to resolve that first. I've even done a couple

1:55:51

of successful merges, which did my head and well did my head and

1:55:56

because I'm like, What's merging into what you know, like, I'm

1:56:00

merging the wrong way. Oh, restore, reset. Okay. merge them

1:56:03

back the other way. All right. There we go. Undo Ctrl Z. is

1:56:10

great. I'm able to I'm actually able to do a lot for people. So

1:56:14

I feel quite powerful with the capabilities I have.

1:56:18

Dave Jones: It will I'll continue to refine that. It's

1:56:20

still rough. Adam Curry: Give me Give me root access. Give me RM dash RF.

1:56:26

Yeah, I don't I've actually done that. No, yes. Back what own

1:56:32

what folder? Okay, back in the onramp days now. Something

1:56:35

similar. Here's what I did. Dave Jones: So wait, they get tilde dummy. Somebody in onramp

1:56:40

gave you root access to anything? Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. No, I had root access to everything. So we

1:56:45

had a son with a Unison five maybe. Spark station. Spark

1:56:51

station. Yeah. And Neuromancer was the machines name, I

1:56:55

remember it well. And so there was a ragtag, we had like one

1:57:00

client, and we were just trying to do stuff. And, and, you know,

1:57:03

I was trying to figure something out. And so I go in, and I'm on

1:57:07

the machine, right? So I have root access on the machine, that

1:57:10

I'm seeing all these errors being thrown. And I'm like,

1:57:14

well, there's something wrong here with this sh. So why don't

1:57:17

just RMS H for a second I removed the shell. Nice. was

1:57:29

interesting how we brought that back to life. That was my that

1:57:35

was my big aha moment. Oh, don't give me that access anymore. I

1:57:39

Dave Jones: used to work at an insurance brokerage in it. And

1:57:44

we ran a big as 400 system. This is a this is 1000. Person.

1:57:48

Company. Yes. 400. Man classic. Millions and millions and

1:57:53

millions of dollars of insurance premiums going through this

1:57:57

company. And then all the night everything ran as a batch job as

1:58:04

400 to print all the debt, all the premium notices and all this

1:58:07

kind of stuff. The COBOL we do in COBOL? No is RPG? Yeah, is

1:58:13

the native language on is 400. So it was said the we had a new

1:58:18

guy in it. And he he was just he just needed a job. Like he had

1:58:25

an history degree like he didn't know hardly anything about about

1:58:29

anything with computers. And they hired him. And then like a

1:58:33

week later, all the all the MIS people you know, it used to be a

1:58:37

separate department in my es mi Yes, yes. Yeah, of course, all

1:58:41

the MIS people were like, nobody wanted to stay the regular night

1:58:46

operator guy was off and none of them wanted to stay late. So

1:58:49

they're like, hey, we'll just give this this guy with a

1:58:51

history degree a crash course. There was 400 job management

1:58:56

with RPGA. Yeah, with and so they gave him a 15 minute,

1:59:00

here's a here's how you do this. You run this command, you wait

1:59:02

to this other thing happens. You run this command, and then you

1:59:05

do these things. But whatever you do, don't do this thing at

1:59:07

this time, because that'll screw everything up. And he did that

1:59:11

thing. It two o'clock in the morning. The thing was so

1:59:15

screwed. They had to just start they just had to punt and

1:59:17

restart restoring from backup. Oh no. He started running batch

1:59:21

jobs on top of each other. And deleting stuff. It was a it was

1:59:26

like a almost business ending event.

1:59:30

Adam Curry: And I'm like, what did you think was gonna happen? Fantastic. Ah, Dave, there's another podcast in here for us,

1:59:36

ma'am. Yes. tales from the trenches.

1:59:39

Dave Jones: Magnolia mayhem, do 7777 to fountain Magnolia mayhem

1:59:45

says there's already a good number of audiobooks on our set.

1:59:48

That's podcasting. Yes, there there are, that's for sure.

1:59:51

Mostly creepy pasta stuff like Tales from the gas station.

1:59:55

Several productions of Bourassa last known position etc. but

2:00:00

it's a foot in the door. I wish I could think of some non horror

2:00:03

examples. But outside of that I just have custom RSS feeds on my

2:00:06

NAS for my own audio book ribs. It's pretty easy. Yeah, either

2:00:10

way. We're already heading in that direction. Right? Oh, it is

2:00:13

creepy pasta. What does that mean?

2:00:17

Adam Curry: It's a good band name.

2:00:21

Dave Jones: Yes. Adam Curry: Not everybody with creepypasta.

2:00:26

Dave Jones: See, Jean been 2222. Hey, Jean to cast magic. He

2:00:31

says, I think Dave is right about the K God. K God feed

2:00:35

being a podcast l feed. But do any apps actually support

2:00:39

podcast l playlists? They Adam Curry: will? They will, they will. They will. Because

2:00:43

that that project will that will happen. Somehow that's going to

2:00:47

happen. Someone's going to do if it's not me, it's going to be

2:00:49

somebody's going to happen. Sam Sathya also sent me a very

2:00:52

thoughtful email with all kinds of ideas about that. I'm still

2:00:56

processing everything. He thinks that should be the publisher

2:01:00

feet. I'm thinking the podcast so I think the list is the way

2:01:02

to go. But we're working on it. We're working on it. There's

2:01:05

plenty figured out whenever we will figure it out. Of course

2:01:07

Dave Jones: do stuff, see what works, and then go yep, yep.

2:01:11

Yep, comic strip blogger, the delimiter. Here we go. 23,000

2:01:15

SAS through fountain CSB says, howdy, David Adam. I'd like to

2:01:21

recommend a podcast about important things in life,

2:01:24

literal quote from the last episode. Quote, I am so happy

2:01:29

with my new exercise regime, also called having a job. I

2:01:33

don't know if I'll let you know if I can see my junk in the

2:01:37

shower someday. Unquote. Said Ryan bemrose. The delivery

2:01:42

driver for Amazon's subcontractor from Seattle other

2:01:45

co host is some unemployed Irish guy called Darren or Darren from

2:01:50

a shoe rack Wars era. Check it out at www dot grumpy old Ben's

2:01:57

dot com comma yo CSB. So

2:02:01

Adam Curry: Devora divorce. Darren O'Neill always does the

2:02:04

Rock and Roll pre show complete copyright violation before every

2:02:09

it's the copyright or copyright violation show before every no

2:02:12

agenda live show. And John was ragging on him. He says Darrell,

2:02:16

I'm like Wow, man. The guy has been doing this for years and

2:02:19

you still know his name. You call him Darryl now instead of

2:02:22

Darren. So that's what I think we should just in the knife that

2:02:25

we should play commerce or bloggers jingle. We haven't

2:02:28

played that in a while. Yeah, do it hit a Unknown: comic strip.

2:02:33

Dave Jones: Comic Strip, Unknown: Comic Strip, strip.

2:02:38

Comic Strip. Comics jam comic strip.

2:02:44

Adam Curry: Classic has been around for 15 years that that

2:02:47

jingle probably gets

2:02:50

Dave Jones: the monthlies. Alright Terry Terry killer $5

2:02:53

Thank you, Terry. Silicone florist. $10 Chris cow and $5

2:02:59

Damon Cazal Jack $15. Yarn, Rosenstein. $1 Derek J. Vickery,

2:03:04

the best name and podcasting. $21. Jeremy gerdts. $5. Michael

2:03:08

Hall $5.50. and New Media projections. That's Todd and Rob

2:03:13

$30. Go Adam Curry: thank you all very much. You know, I read somewhere

2:03:17

I think tally coin. Did they shut down the tally coin shut

2:03:20

down? Dave Jones: No. Adam Curry: You wouldn't know because nothing ever comes in

2:03:25

through tally coin. So we wouldn't know. That's right.

2:03:29

Dave Jones: If a tree falls in the woods, nobody's around to

2:03:31

hear it. And Adam Curry: we'll tally coin have a receipt. Nope. They

2:03:33

won't. Hey, good board meeting everybody. I feel like we we fix

2:03:39

the we saw a lot of stuff once again. That's a board did you

2:03:42

who's doing the meeting minutes? Dave Jones: Somebody's got it. Somebody's

2:03:47

Adam Curry: got it. My Dave Jones: name. And Mike's got it. Adam Curry: Yeah. All right. Brother. Have a great weekend.

2:03:52

Dave. Dave Jones: Yeah. Have a good trip to Nashville. Yes.

2:03:55

Adam Curry: Yes. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it's going to be a lot of fun. Okay. boardroom Thank you very much for being

2:03:59

here. Once again. We'll be back in two weeks for another

2:04:04

probably extended edition of the podcasting 2.0 podcast See you

2:04:07

then everybody. Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcasts

2:04:29

index.org. For more information, go podcast.

2:04:34

Adam Curry: Podcasting Dave Jones: is the anti monopoly