Tina Dietz (00:00):

How does thought leadership relate to internal podcasting or podcasting in general? And what should leaders be thinking about as they're developing their messages to get out to the world in a larger way? We're taking a slightly different angle today talking about personal public relations, podcasting, and thought leadership, here on Podcast Inc.

Tina Dietz (00:36):

Welcome back to Podcast Inc. I am Tina Dietz, joining you here on this limited edition series as we lead up to the Podcast Inc conference in the fall of 2020. How are you guys out there? How are you fairing in these tumultuous times of uncertainty, and also great discovery? I hope you're all doing well out there. We're taking a slightly different look today at podcasting, and through the lens of thought leadership and personal public relations. And that's why we brought on the show today, Tina Chang, the CEO and founder of The Pioneering Collective. I'll tell you a little bit more about Tina in just a moment. But before I do, I'd like to mention that Pioneering Collective is one of our collaborators making this show possible. Along, of course, with Podcast Inc. Who this show is all about. And Hardcast Media, along with my company, Twin Flames Studios.

8. Tina Dietz (01:29):

So really, I am just tickled pink and grateful for all of the collaboration and sponsors that we've had around this. Including our folks at Blubrry, who are also a major sponsor of the podcasting conference. Remember you can go to podcastinc.co and find out more information about that upcoming conference here in the fall of 2020. And in the meantime, enjoy all of these episodes that we've put together for you in this limited series, talking about this whole world. So we're taking this a little different today as we bring Tina on the show. And wanted to approach it from the angle of, what are leaders thinking about? And their thought leadership. And, how are they developing their own message in the industry that they're in? And, how does that relate to podcasting?

8. Tina Dietz (02:15):

So Tina Chang is the founder and CEO of The Pioneering Collective, which is a personal public relations firm with a mission to amplify the impact of senior leaders who are shaping the future. Tina, herself, is driven to elevate human-centric stories, to build engagement, and strengthen trust for industry pioneers. And she has worked with all kinds of executives, top speakers, C-level folks, and world leaders at over 100 prestigious organizations, such as Johnson & Johnson, TD Bank, Google, Novo Nordisk. The list goes on and on. To amplify the voices and messages of these leaders through media coverage and speaking engagements, enhanced visibility for board appointments. And of course, as we'll discuss today, podcasting. Very different take on things today. I hope you'll enjoy this conversation with Tina Chang.

8. Tina Dietz (03:09):

Tina, I'm really excited to have you bring your unique perspective to the series, so thank you for being here.

7. Tina Chang (03:15):

It's wonderful to be here.

8. Tina Dietz (03:16):

Yeah. Yeah. And you and I were having a conversation and you said something that really stuck out in my mind that I wanted to use right up front, because I was excited to talk about it. And you coming from this world of public relations, among other things in the corporate world, you said that public relations is evolving to personal relations. And now we have all this technology that allows for individuals to have more personal agency. And it's important to tap into that. Can you expand on that just as a starting point for us to talk about your perspective on that?

7. Tina Chang (03:55):

So I work with a lot of corporate leaders, and I lead a personal PR and personal communication organization. So we support them in connecting to their employees, but also external stakeholders and customers. And one thing I hear a lot from leaders is that they're very comfortable talking about the corporate story. Right? The sales performance, the business, the products. But traditionally they're not trained to talk about their own personal story. It's hard, it's tough to share much more about yourself. And yet employees and future talent, they all want to hear much more around, who is the leader? What are his or her principles? What do they stand for? How do they make their decisions? These are really important perspectives for the employees and others to hear. And so right now we spend a lot of time helping leaders think through the stories and the messages that they want to share, and tie-in those personal elements. And to tap into different types of media to share that, such as podcasting.

7. Tina Chang (05:16):

And I think it's a great forum, it's a great format to be a bit more conversational, be a little bit more long-form. And it brings out their personal characteristics and perspectives. And so we spend a lot of time doing that.

8. Tina Dietz (05:33):

Yeah. And so as I mentioned at the top of the episode, sharing who you were and who you are, and what you do. That you've had all these incredible relationships with leaders from more than 100 different influential companies. Why don't you paint a picture for us of how this agency that you now run, The Pioneering Collective, came to be, and what was the culmination here? Because I think everybody should know a little bit more of a meta picture of having you here on the show and the perspective you're bringing.

7. Tina Chang (06:10):

I'll tell you a little bit about my journey. And which has pulled me towards starting this organization. I never thought I'd start a company and be an entrepreneur. I'll take you all the way back. And growing up, I loved art, and have gotten always best artists and so on. But ended up loving biology and the human body. And then ended up in science, and I have a doctorate in pharmacy. And the reason why I share that story is people may say, art and pharmacy, that's not really connected yet. I see a lot of overlap between art and science. And as a thread throughout my career, I see connections between things, whether it's things or people. And I started my career in scientific communication, so then very early on worked with scientists and thought leaders and speakers bureaus. And helping leaders share much more around their scientific data and information, and amplifying their voice on really important topics.

7. Tina Chang (07:26):

And I loved it. And moved over to marketing, spent most of my career in larger corporate healthcare corporations. So Stryker, Novo Nordisk, Genentech, and these are Fortune 100 best companies to work for. I loved it. It's a great experience there. And in leading the various different products and brands, I also realized that I oftentimes want to encourage consumers and customers to engage with products. Right? Yet people don't engage with things and products-

8. Tina Dietz (08:05):

No, they don't.

7. Tina Chang (08:06):

... and buildings or logos the same way they engage with people. And so back to the connection of heart, I realized very early in the product, or marketing career, that it's really important to work with leaders, thought leaders, influencers, to help them express that message and bring people along. And oftentimes in various different formats, storytelling, and other ways where people can connect with the message. And so I've spent most of my career in thinking through how to encourage leaders to share their perspectives, and also their stories.

7. Tina Chang (08:56):

I was also with an organization leading a CEO mentorship program, and even top leaders within their organizations, their C-suite leaders, still struggle quite a bit about how to bring an authentic self. Right? To the forefront.

8. Tina Dietz (09:13):

Sure.

7. Tina Chang (09:13):

How to engage truly as themselves, not just sharing a corporate message. And oftentimes they'll say, I would have conversations with them, they'll say, also, I don't understand all the new media, all the new digital platforms that you mentioned before. They may have a social media account, but don't have a photo on it, on their LinkedIn. Or have never participated in a podcast. And, what is that? And they may be very well trained for large media, or traditional TV, yet haven't tapped into a lot of the other media formats. And media is much more fragmented now with technology.

7. Tina Chang (09:58):

And it's really important for our leaders to really understand the diverse media channels. And consumers consume information in different ways. And not everybody reads, some people are more audio first, and the others like visual, infographics and other formats.

8. Tina Dietz (10:17):

It ties into the idea of thought leadership, which I know you work an awful lot with. And this idea that leaders need to start telling their own stories on a more personal level. Which is interesting, because it really requires them to take off their superhero cape, so to speak. But that's part of what makes an effective thought leader. But thought leadership is different from leadership fame, or being an expert. Can you explain some of the difference between those?

7. Tina Chang (10:50):

Yeah. I would love to. Being a thought leader has two sides to it. There's visibility, of course, and there's credibility. It needs to be, a thought leader is a trusted source. And people look towards a thought leader for quality information. In today's environment with COVID-19, and a lot of information, people are really looking for trusted and quality information. And you mentioned fame as an example, I think fame is heavily visibility. It doesn't have as much of the credibility arm to it. It could. A thought leader really needs that reputation of credibility. For an expert, they're fantastic in their specific area, but not all experts share.

8. Tina Dietz (11:46):

True.

7. Tina Chang (11:47):

Not all experts are out there talking about the information that they're aware of. Or could say it in a simple way, in an educational way, or bring others along with them. So a thought leader needs to be someone who, by definition, is actually an expert of an expert, and can synthesize the information, and are very willing to share in a credible manner. Now, leaders and thought leaders are slightly different also. Leaders, they tend to stay... And the traditional definition of leaders, maybe much more of a corporate leader leading within their organization. But somewhere along the way, as leaders continue to progress in their career and getting to a higher executive level, it's important for them to start thinking about the industry. And no company is an island, or solo player. They're part of an ecosystem. And for leaders to transition into an industry leader, that's a very important pivot.

7. Tina Chang (12:54):

And as they transition into an industry leader, and impacting and driving the industry, they're building. Thought leadership is a process. Personal PR is a process to get to that thought leadership destination. I tend to categorize fame, experts, leadership, slightly differently than being a thought leader, or potentially a change agent.

8. Tina Dietz (13:23):

Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. So then, let's say that the folks that you work with who are senior leaders in organizations, there's an old saying that goes, it's hard to be a hero in your own hometown. So if somebody is looking to become more of a leader inside their company, does it actually makes sense for somebody to start with their external PR, rather than focusing on the internal? How does that work from somebody who's developing that personally?

7. Tina Chang (13:58):

When we sit down with a leader to really understand what success looks like, what they're trying to drive at, and at different stages of their career and at different times. I think it's really important to start thinking about, who is your audience? And be a bit more targeted in their approach. Their audience could be internal, could be external. It could be a mix of both. And it's possible to start designing based on really having a clear idea of who their audience space is and what they need. And then from there, think about, what is their purpose for communicating?

7. Tina Chang (14:37):

So once the audience is defined, then it's, what's your reason for doing this? And then ultimately, the thought leadership, what is that unique thought and big idea that they want to convey? And so I tend to have a simple acronym in my head of ART, back to my passion for art. So it's audience, reason, and thought. And so I do believe that in the space of communication, everything's interrelated. There isn't as clear of a definition as completely internal or completely external. Oftentimes the message that a leader shares internally, and I've often heard that, a memo they've shared internally just gets re-posted on social by their employees. And you always got to have that lens on. That what you write internally, oftentimes, can be shared more broadly. And hopefully it's a wonderful message, and it's an important message, and it could be quite motivating for the industry also. I don't think that it's as clearly defined as it used to be.

8. Tina Dietz (15:59):

Yeah. There's definitely a lot of fuzzy edges around all of that. And even the whole internal/external conversation, which has been a theme throughout this entire series around internal podcasting, external podcasting. There's a lot of overlap between the two. And so, as you've been working with leaders, where are you seeing opportunity for podcasting to play a role in helping these leaders help more people?

7. Tina Chang (16:29):

I see opportunities for podcasting internally, and also externally. And there are, within an organization, especially driving change. And then I have to mention COVID-19 again, it feels like we've just fast-forwarded 10 years in terms of technology and how we are adapting to work. Also, the environment of just reopening and rebooting the organization. There's a lot of change that's happening. And people need to hear from that leader. And during times of change, one is a stabilizing factor, the voice of a leader. And having the podcast in the ear, and it feels as if the leader is talking to you, right? Directly. And it's at a time when the organization want more access to leadership, want to hear directly from the leader. And so I think podcasting is a wonderful way to reach them. And also to drive for change, to say we got to do things differently.

7. Tina Chang (17:39):

It's not just through an article or a piece. It doesn't have the same emotional connection to engage the employee base and motivate them to say, you know what, I think this is important to change my behavior and do things differently. So I do see some, I should say huge opportunities there. There are also different communities within an organization. There may be employee resource groups. There may be different departments and teams. And it's a great way to engage a group within the organization a little differently. And not everybody wants to look at a screen all the time anymore.

8. Tina Dietz (18:27):

We have found that in the research, for sure. For sure.

7. Tina Chang (18:30):

And so there's a bit of concern around just, how much time are we spending on the screen? And so podcasting is a way where people can have it in the background. And I'm a busy entrepreneur, a mother. And I can imagine employees are in similar situations where you could have the podcast going and still do a little bit of light work somewhere else. They are paying attention, but people are preferring a model that isn't always just staring at a screen. So just offering that format could be helpful.

7. Tina Chang (19:08):

And I think externally, there's some create opportunities to differentiate yourself in a very nuanced way, being able to share more details around maybe some unique thought or big idea that others may not have explored. And it's a great way to connect with a broad audience also. I do see huge opportunities for organizations and leaders to utilize podcasting as a format to engage their external ecosystem.

8. Tina Dietz (19:49):

Yeah, some very targeted audiences available there as well. From your experience in coaching these folks, what do you think they need to know in order to offer an engaging experience across these different digital platforms?

7. Tina Chang (20:10):

It's a lot to navigate. Right? Individually, there's digital PR. There are event PR, event models, and there are also social platforms. And then there's diverse ways to connect and influence, whether it's on committees or write, or be on editorial boards. And so it's a lot in the marketplace for an individual to say, huh, how do I approach this if I wanted a great experience for others who are looking me, right?

8. Tina Dietz (20:48):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). True.

7. Tina Chang (20:50):

And so I do believe that it is important, and it's also hard to design your own story.

8. Tina Dietz (20:55):

That's true.

7. Tina Chang (20:58):

And so even the best storytellers and some of the best PR leaders I've known would like to work with someone else just for that on bias opinion. You're not too married to yourself there. And so it's really understanding and going back to, what is the purpose, who's the audience, and what's that thought? And then going from there, what's that experience, digital experience that you want people to have of you? And then designing all the different formats from there. In person, in public, presentations, what's that experience? And then, designing some of the approaches from there. Being that everyone's purpose is a little different, we tailor a lot of our conversations around, what is their goal? What are they trying to achieve? And we don't need to do everything. Right?

7. Tina Chang (21:57):

Let's pick a few platforms where the leader is most comfortable with, or want to learn much more, or could be most impactful. And double-down on that.

8. Tina Dietz (22:10):

So you're talking about developing a narrative, and developing those pieces. We've mentioned storytelling. When you're working with folks to develop their own story, what are some of the things they need to keep in mind on the storytelling side of things, or their personal narrative?

7. Tina Chang (22:31):

Yeah. Yeah.

8. Tina Dietz (22:32):

That big idea.

7. Tina Chang (22:34):

Yeah. So the first thing I say is, don't think too hard about it. I know it sounds counterintuitive. Yeah. It could prevent someone from even getting started, because there's so many different aspects that they want to focus on. The other thing is, we sometimes break down the stories, right? There may be an overarching theme, and this is what they want to be known for. And let's lock in on that. Let's break down their stories into mini stories, and/or collection of different stories that they can share at different times, for different purposes. When we get into the story design, for a conversation with an employee base, they may not need to tell the full movie version of a story, the longterm.

8. Tina Dietz (23:29):

That's true.

7. Tina Chang (23:29):

Right? Quick examples could be much more effective with that audience. Sometimes when they really do want to share a longer form, podcasting, or some of the other formats, might be a better method. So we'll break things down for them. And certainly, there's different types of storytelling. And different purposes for the storytelling, so we'll define it a little differently. Sometimes there needs to be a conflict, and there needs to be a villain, or there needs to be... And other times the purpose is to be a little bit more vulnerable. Just to share a bit more about who they are, and have the courage to say that.

8. Tina Dietz (24:23):

Well, there are so many variables on that. It could be a piece of somebody's personal story that relates to their leadership development. It could be the story of... I remember hearing one of your members talking, creating a story around having people understand the impact of what they had changed about how they were delivering a certain type of medication. And that what they did to find out how that impacted people in their daily lives who were taking this medication in the pharmaceutical industry.

8. Tina Dietz (24:58):

And the story brought me to tears, and it was a small change that they made about the delivery. And I admit to being one of those people who looked at big pharma as the monster of big pharma. And the more you actually talk with people who are these leaders inside, with the hearts and the minds who are actually looking to make a difference in the world. And it really humanizes everything. You realize it's a far more complicated picture, and a far more nuanced picture than anyone would know from, quote unquote, big media.

8. Tina Dietz (25:41):

And so you delivering messages in these different ways, the podcast guesting, which I'm most familiar with for your work. But certainly articles, interviews, all the other things that are going on. It's quite enlightening to see the range of messaging that happens. And it becomes not just about that leader's story, but also about the bigger world, or how it impacts an entire industry, or humanity as a whole, even. Particularly in this time of COVID-19. It's kind of fascinating. I'm wondering, when would somebody know that they're ready to take a step like this, to develop themselves in this way as a leader?

7. Tina Chang (26:29):

Yeah. Tina, thanks for that question. And I would love to encourage leaders to start sharing at any time. There isn't really a right time to share. I've been incredibly motivated by the healthcare leaders that I work with, a majority of our clients, say over 50% are healthcare leaders. And they have lifelong missions, and oftentimes a quest to cure a particular disease, and have dedicated their entire life to it. And I think anywhere along their journey they could be sharing their stories and perspectives. What I'll comment on is, oftentimes when I find people who are ready to share, they are usually three motivators, or a combination of these three. And I call it the heart, the brain, and that ego. And really, the heart is... Leaders oftentimes want to communicate more when they care about an issue, they want to drive change in the world.

7. Tina Chang (27:44):

They want to give back. They want to help serve or educate. And that's a fantastic reason for getting out there and sharing much more, and being a thought leader on particular topics to help contribute. The brain is thought of wanting to inform. So there are a lot of researchers who have great data, or an entrepreneur with a big idea, a new idea. And it's much more logical, yet also an important reason to get out there and communicate more. And lastly, the ego. And oftentimes people will say, that's the worst reason for personal PR or thought leadership. It's all about self-aggrandizement. And I don't necessarily think so. I do think it's important. All of us have a need, a human need to feel special. And-

8. Tina Dietz (28:47):

I'm in that category.

7. Tina Chang (28:50):

And to define ourselves for others. And we talked about personal agency before. It's really important that we're driving our own stories instead of allowing others to define us. And that ability to control the story, control the narrative. And also back to another time you and I were talking about, it's important for someone to share their own story so others can talk about them. If you've never shared your own stories before, you leave others with nothing to even help you spread the message, or to communicate more. So the ego isn't necessarily a bad reason either. And oftentimes it's the combination of three. That when a leader have important and impactful messages to share, those tend to be the three reasons why people get out there.

8. Tina Dietz (29:52):

That's interesting. And I'm glad you included the ego, because I think it's important as a leader to have a strong sense of self. And that's really the type of ego I think we're talking about here. It's not the arrogance that you can't back up. It's that you know who you are, or you have the sense of who you are as a leader, and this desire to share in such a way that you do need to be able to, as a leader, take the feedback. And to be able to stand out there, which can be a vulnerable place. Putting a message out there and not knowing necessarily what kind of feedback you're going to get on that.

8. Tina Dietz (30:32):

I think that ego is necessary in the sense of sense of self, and having what we'd call in psychology, as an ego base. To have a good place to start from so that you don't end up snapping back and feeling like, oh, I'm never getting out there again, because I don't know if I can deal with the feedback from it. I'm really glad that you included it, because it's important.

8. Tina Dietz (30:59):

So going back around to a couple of points here, are there any particular elements of somebody's personal public relations plan that you think need to be included across the board, regardless of leader?

7. Tina Chang (31:12):

And I'm going to bring us around back to purpose, or back to audience. The reason and also the thought. I think it's the framework that needs to be there upfront. Sometimes I have seen leaders just very quickly want to get content out there. And in this eagerness for speed, maybe not have thought through precisely the right audience that they want to reach. If someone wants to connect much more with board of directors, because they're interested in elevating their profile for boards, it's not the general public. They could be much more deliberate in their distribution, and the channel that they use. So knowing the audience is very important.

7. Tina Chang (32:14):

And so I would say it's the framework upfront. It's just really understanding who's the audience, what's my reason for doing it, what's my purpose? And what unique story or thought they want to share. And once leaders take the time to do that, the rest really flows from there. Sometimes, back to, I do some see some people rushing out a bit more, before they've thought through all that. And it takes a lot of effort. And it's being everywhere on social, or being on all sorts of platforms. You don't need to. I think that just selecting one or two particular platforms that are highly effective for your purpose will be important. So we do say slow down a little bit in the beginning to be thoughtful, and you can speed up a lot more throughout the personal PR process.

8. Tina Dietz (33:16):

So bringing it back then around to podcasting, when would be a good time to bring in podcasting to a leader's PR plan?

7. Tina Chang (33:25):

So, it's interesting, most leaders are very intrigued by podcasting. And just interested to participate. In podcasting, one, they've never tried it before. So it's out of learning, and most leaders are learners, and they would love to learn a new platform and a new media outlet. And so oftentimes we receive requests to say, can you secure a podcast for me? I'd like to try one or two of those out. And because I do think that most corporate executives are listening to one or two podcasts themselves, previously when we were all driving to work, that used to be, they were listening to podcasts then. But now also when they're going for walks, when they're exercising, right before bed sometimes. And so they have a personal experience themselves with podcasting and would love to participate in one and try one out. So there isn't precisely a particular time, yet I think they ask for it pretty early in the personal PR journey.

8. Tina Dietz (34:44):

Well, it is in great scheme of things, I would call it from my own personal experience a little less risky, so to speak, than certain other types of media. For example, television, or something that would be nationally syndicated on a large stage. I think podcasting for leaders is a really nice place to actually refine your message and work on that relationship with an audience as they're doing that. As they're in that process, would you agree?

7. Tina Chang (35:19):

Yeah. I fully agree. It's a very friendly media outlet.

8. Tina Dietz (35:25):

True.

7. Tina Chang (35:25):

And also back to the interest, and I probably should just comment on that a little bit more. Most leaders think podcasting is still seen as a bit of edutainment. There's some fun element to it. And it's not all seriousness, and it brings the human storytelling to the front. And they want to try that. And so the leaders who are part of our community tend to really want to share their personal stories. So podcasting very naturally comes up very early in the conversation.

8. Tina Dietz (36:07):

No, that is excellent. I really appreciate you coming on, taking the time to share a different angle on how podcasting fits into the framework of leadership and thought leadership, personal PR. And this segment of the business world that is really just discovering podcasting now as a medium. And we're seeing more and more, of course, interest in that. As you are as well. Thank you so much for your thoughts on how this fits together. We appreciate it.

7. Tina Chang (36:41):

Wonderful. Thank you, Tina. It's great to be on your session here.

8. Tina Dietz (36:45):

Okay. It's great to have you. And thank you all out there in cyberland for listening to the podcasting podcast, as we lead up to the podcasting conference this fall in 2020. And you'll be able to hear more episodes here. If you haven't listened to the rest of the series, please make sure you listen to all the episodes where we're tackling internal corporate podcasting, and tying that into corporate podcasting in general in this limited edition series from different aspects and different angles. You can subscribe to this show and make sure you don't miss an episode. And make sure if somebody who might be interested in this topic, sharing is caring, as we say to our friends. And we'll see you next time on Podcast Inc.