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code Cricut. Hey y'all,

1:01

it's Tim Miller, Cricut Media's favorite Cuck-servative.

1:03

I'm now hosting the Daily Bulwark Podcast,

1:05

which comes out every weekday afternoon, rain

1:07

or shine, hangover or no hangover. Here's

1:10

what's special about this podcast and my

1:12

colleagues at the Bulwark. We

1:14

are all united in a mission to defend

1:16

democracy from the burnt sienna buffoon. And

1:18

as outcast Republicans, we have no future career

1:20

prospects. So we're free to tell you what

1:23

we really think. So check out my Daily

1:25

Bulwark Podcast. Or if once a week is

1:27

more your speed, there's Lovett's Guilty Pleasure, the

1:29

next level podcast, featuring me with my colleagues,

1:31

Sarah Longwell and JVL. Check it out, peace.

1:56

Welcome to Ponce of America. I'm Jon

1:58

Lovett and joining us. You

2:01

know him from the bulwark. You

2:03

know him from MSNBC. You

2:07

know him from being a little drunk alive with love

2:10

and eliteness. That's right. It's Tim Miller.

2:12

Thanks for being here. How you doing, brother? Thanks

2:14

for being here, Tim. I'm so excited. I think

2:16

this is official now. I just for listeners, you

2:18

know, you might have somebody in your life that

2:20

was maybe a friend of me at one stage

2:23

and maybe you have a little tension with at

2:25

one point over the years you

2:27

grow and you grow a

2:29

bond and appreciation for one another and it

2:31

blossoms into a real friendship.

2:34

I feel like that's officially happened right now

2:36

at this moment. And just so everybody knows,

2:38

his audio did break up for a second.

2:42

He said sexual tension. Yeah,

2:46

well that's what we had at one point. But

2:48

I'm just saying now it's blossomed. It's something deeper.

2:50

It is nice. It is nice. It's

2:52

something like, you don't know that this is coming. 20

2:54

year olds out there, this is happening for you in

2:56

your 40s. There's somebody in your life right now and

2:58

you're like, that guy? Never. But then

3:00

when you're 40, you're like, wow, we like each other a

3:02

lot. I never said never. But maybe

3:04

you did and that's fine. Yes, when you're 20, you don't

3:07

know what it's like to be an adult for 20 years.

3:10

I know. That's the beauty of it. Anyway,

3:12

let's talk about Gaza. But speaking of... Yeah,

3:16

and also people that have been adults for 50

3:19

years and don't seem to show it. We have

3:21

a packed show today. Donald Trump spent some of

3:23

his precious time outside of a courtroom to do

3:25

a good old fashioned sit down interview with Time

3:27

magazine, laying out his vision

3:29

for a second term. And it's worrying.

3:31

The Biden administration is reclassifying marijuana as

3:34

a less dangerous drug while student protests

3:36

envelop campus buildings and our national attention.

3:38

Marjorie Taylor Greene makes her

3:40

move. Plus the vice president sits down

3:42

with Drew Barrymore and it makes everyone

3:44

a little uncomfortable. Okay, first up. He

3:49

did something that feels like it's from another era. He

3:52

sat down for an interview with

3:54

Time magazine in Palm Beach, lasted

3:56

over an hour. All

3:59

the Palm Beach... and circumstance, the description of

4:01

the room, the transcript

4:04

has the aid coming in and saying,

4:06

Mr. Trump has to get to dinner.

4:08

We get some color about the playlist.

4:10

It's the same playlist, Sinead O'Connor, January

4:14

6th choir, the two genders. And

4:18

then they did a follow-up 20-minute conversation.

4:20

So we'll get to all

4:22

the details, but were

4:24

you surprised, Tim, to see

4:26

Donald Trump spend an hour doing this?

4:30

I was. I have to be honest. There

4:32

is a print time magazine, like a piers, that

4:35

you can get now. Is that, that still exists?

4:37

So that was, it

4:41

all made sense once I realized that still

4:43

existed. I personally did not know that. I

4:45

thought time had gone fully digital. And I

4:47

was like, Mr. Trump might be an idiot,

4:49

you know, and he might have the wool

4:51

pulled over his eyes a couple of times,

4:53

but he certainly would not do an interview

4:55

because he wanted a fake digital cover. And

4:57

this man would require a real physical cover.

5:00

And then he would do an interview where

5:02

he shames himself and really freaks everybody out

5:04

about what a Trump term would look like

5:06

and provides a political gift to Joe Biden.

5:08

So I do, it makes

5:11

sense for then, once I knew that, that

5:13

Trump could have the time cover that he

5:15

could frame, because that's what he really

5:17

values. And then once I interviewed

5:20

the reporter this morning, Eric

5:22

Cordalesa, and great reporter, tough

5:24

interview. So please don't take this

5:26

the wrong way, Eric, but he does give off like,

5:28

I got drunk with Madison Cawthorn at a

5:30

Duke lacrosse party vibes. And so

5:33

like once I spent more time talking to

5:35

him, I was like, Oh yeah, okay, this

5:37

makes sense. The Trump people felt like this

5:39

guy was one of them, you know, he's

5:41

going to get his cover and,

5:43

you know, consequences be damned. Yeah.

5:45

So, you know, the

5:49

1980s Trump brain is, Oh, Time Magazine. I want to be

5:51

on Time Magazine. I want to be on the cover of

5:53

Time Magazine. And it, yes, I

5:55

do. I also associate Time Magazine now with

5:57

the kind of downfall of Newsweek. And

6:01

us it's different but it's different but

6:03

there was the other piece of this too Which is I like

6:06

let's say you you were thinking about this in a more traditional

6:08

way The idea behind sitting

6:10

down for a long print interview like that. There's

6:12

no video. There's no audio. That's just a transcript

6:16

Was that there was some there was

6:18

some value to getting out to elite

6:20

news followers to

6:23

journalists to close Watchers

6:26

of politics the the vision

6:28

the kind of detailed Vision

6:31

that you wouldn't get on a stump speech

6:33

that you wouldn't won't get in shorter television

6:35

hits to give people the context of what

6:37

Trump's trying to do. I don't believe they

6:39

were doing anything as sophisticated as

6:41

that but if they were What

6:44

on earth were they hoping to accomplish? By

6:47

having the president the former

6:49

president walk through all this stuff Yeah,

6:53

they wanted to accomplish the physical

6:55

okay once the bridge I

6:58

just cannot emphasize what he wants the framed

7:00

magazine cover I know he's already been the

7:02

president feels like that seems like small ball

7:05

for him, but that's what he wanted Okay

7:07

granted that now moving on what was their

7:09

strategy beyond that? I really I do not

7:11

know I I do not know

7:13

I don't it doesn't seem like he went into

7:15

the interview I'm going back to my days You

7:17

know we certainly had some fails with my candidates

7:19

But if Jeb was gonna do a long sit-down

7:22

interview certainly sometimes he would get stumped or he'd

7:24

say something wrong or but But we would at

7:26

least have like a a proactive message

7:28

We were trying to get across right that you

7:30

would that if you looked at the transcript You

7:32

could see that he was coming back to this

7:34

whether it was an issue or whether it was

7:36

a argument So he's trying to put forth that

7:38

was not what this was I it is total

7:40

stream of consciousness Donald Trump It's

7:43

indistinguishable from his rallies Except

7:46

for the fact that the

7:48

reporter Eric got to kind of

7:50

direct him Into some

7:52

you know into like a briar

7:55

pet a little bit on abortion

7:57

in particular But also some

7:59

on some other issues and there was no sign

8:01

that they had like a proactive message that

8:04

they were trying to get across. Yeah. So

8:07

let's go through this. So it was wide ranging. He says

8:09

a lot. He also refuses to say a lot. For

8:12

example, he wouldn't say he'd veto a national

8:14

abortion ban. He wouldn't say defend Taiwan. He

8:16

wouldn't say he supports a two state solution

8:18

between Israel and Palestine. He wouldn't commit to

8:21

supporting Ukraine's defense. Almost immediately

8:23

the Biden campaign went on offense with the

8:25

interview, in particular on Trump's abortion comments, not

8:27

just refusing to say he'd veto a ban,

8:29

but when asked whether states should monitor women's

8:31

pregnancies to see if they violated an abortion

8:34

ban, Trump said, I think they might do

8:36

that. On abortion, what jumped

8:38

out at you? And then we can go beyond

8:40

that. Yeah. Well,

8:42

on abortion, that was like the

8:44

Chris Matthews moment. And Trump has struggled with this for

8:46

nine years because he is faking it, right? I mean,

8:49

that doesn't make the threat any more

8:51

real to vulnerable women about the laws that

8:53

would be put in place by the types

8:55

of people that Trump appoints, judgeships

8:57

in particular, but also into regulatory

9:00

positions. But he personally, obviously

9:02

doesn't care. And so he doesn't know how to

9:05

speak the language of pro-lifers. Somebody

9:07

who's a genuine pro-lifer, I think,

9:09

would at least be astute enough to be able to

9:13

move around the question of, are

9:16

you comfortable with states monitoring women's

9:18

pregnancies? And he feels

9:20

like just by saying, oh, well,

9:22

states get to decide, like that's some amulet that like

9:24

protects him from all criticism on this, right? That he's

9:27

like, oh, I don't know. I guess I'm comfortable if

9:29

the states decide to do it, the states decide to

9:31

do it. And that is a

9:33

crazy view, right, that is going to

9:35

be very useful to Biden, it adds,

9:37

where he says essentially, if during

9:40

a Trump presidency, states want to monitor

9:42

women's pregnancies so they can determine how

9:44

far along they are in the gestational

9:46

period in order to determine whether

9:49

or not they would have access to an

9:51

abortion. That

9:53

is deep state 1984 type

9:56

shit targeting women. And

9:59

he just walked right into it, I think in

10:01

large part because he hasn't thought about this stuff

10:03

deeply at all, never even occurred to him that

10:05

there might be a question about whether a woman

10:08

is at six weeks or nine weeks. None

10:10

of this stuff, he hasn't thought through any of this. He's just

10:12

like, yeah, I guess if the states want to monitor women, they're

10:14

going to monitor women. Yeah, he

10:16

also, I think, he views himself as

10:19

being very adept at these politics now.

10:21

At one point he says, did

10:23

you see everyone adopted my IVF position?

10:26

He was asked about what his policy position

10:28

is going to be on Mipha Pristone. His

10:30

only response, by the way, he didn't say

10:33

what it would be, but he says, it

10:35

won't be very surprising, which I took to

10:37

mean whatever he says, he really hopes people

10:39

don't pay too much attention to it. What

10:42

else jumped out at you? Yeah. The

10:44

Mipha Pristone thing was funny because he says

10:46

in the first interview, which is poolside with

10:49

the Cougars at Mar-a-Lago and

10:51

the well-done stakes during

10:53

that first interview, he's asked about

10:55

his position on Mipha Pristone and

10:57

he's like, I've got a great plan, won't be

10:59

that surprising, it'll be out in two weeks. Then

11:02

there's a follow-up phone interview two weeks later

11:04

and the first question is, are you ready

11:06

to share your Mipha Pristone? Another

11:08

two weeks, it's just like the Obamacare,

11:11

the healthcare plan. So he

11:13

still doesn't have that. But

11:15

again, I think part of that, I did wonder

11:17

if during the first interview he did, if he

11:19

knew what Mipha Pristone was, and he was buying

11:22

himself two weeks, but you'd think by the second

11:24

interview he would and maybe he's just trying to

11:26

dodge. By the time, because it's similar to the

11:28

IVF, this takes you out of into

11:31

even pro-life people,

11:33

right, like are

11:35

horrified by the idea that

11:37

women might not have access

11:39

to Mipha Pristone in like

11:41

the first days after having

11:44

sex. There are people that

11:46

would support a 15-week ban that think

11:48

it's crazy that the states want to

11:50

ban access to

11:52

Mipha Pristone, for example. And

11:54

so that gets him to a really dicey position

11:56

if he doesn't have a clear answer on that.

12:00

that and he did it over the course of two

12:02

interviews because again I think that he thinks that he's

12:04

got to get out of jail free card here

12:06

with this the states can decide thing but obviously once

12:08

you get, if you're going to sit down with time

12:11

for an hour and a half there are a

12:13

lot of holes and the states can decide. Yes and

12:15

his ignorance on this is a feature

12:17

for the kooks

12:20

around him who are already planning

12:23

to put in use

12:25

an old federal law to make it

12:27

impossible to mail abortion

12:30

drugs to people and to use and deploy

12:32

the federal government all kinds of ways to

12:35

make abortion inaccessible even if they

12:37

don't pass a national law even if it

12:39

still continues to be technically legal in

12:41

liberal states. So it's you know he can say I don't

12:44

want to see it too much from what Trump's perspective is

12:46

in a lot of ways it won't matter because will he

12:48

stand in the way of Congress passes a ban of course

12:50

not. Will he stop some schedule

12:53

efflunkie from doing something horrible

12:56

in an agency? Of course he won't. He won't have

12:58

the discipline or attention span to focus on it. This

13:01

is why just really quick on that this is why

13:03

I think that to me the most telling part of

13:05

the interview because of exactly what you're saying it's

13:07

kind of like who cares what Trump's like random

13:09

blurts out are on these various policies

13:12

in some ways and directionally we should care but

13:15

like on the details what

13:17

matters is going to be people around him and at one

13:19

point he was asked what he thinks

13:21

about this notion about hiring people who don't

13:24

believe in the 2020 election front like should

13:27

that be a litmus test for people that

13:29

would be hired into your administration and Trump

13:31

says essentially yes in kind of garbled Trump

13:33

words like yes I would only want I

13:35

would feel very you know he said something

13:38

like I'd feel very strongly against you know

13:40

somebody is too stupid to realize that the

13:42

election was stolen from me. Now to me

13:44

that just puts all this in a very

13:47

important perspective which is like they're going to

13:49

be much more judicious

13:51

is maybe the wrong word careful about hiring

13:53

the kookiest people possible right and like the

13:55

types yeah and so I thought that to me

13:58

was as revealing as any of the policies. stuff

14:00

in the interview and as concerned. Yes, I want to get to that in one

14:02

second. Before I want to get to the implementation because I do think that is,

14:04

I agree with you, it's just as important. Before

14:06

we get to that, were there any other policy points

14:08

that he made or that the piece makes that jumps out?

14:11

One, that his number one agenda item

14:13

when he comes in is going to be extending the Bush

14:15

tax cuts that some

14:17

of those tax cuts for the

14:20

wealthy expire, including the doubling of

14:22

the estate tax deduction, that those

14:24

things all expire in 2025. So

14:26

one of his first orders of business is going to be

14:28

tax cuts for the wealthy in addition to a border bill

14:31

because of course he killed the border bill. Were

14:33

there any other policy positions that jumped out

14:35

at you? Yeah, well

14:37

two. As a free market capitalist, the

14:39

thing that stood out to me was the 10% across

14:42

the board tariffs, which

14:44

is an absolutely insane policy that if

14:46

people are concerned about prices, will

14:48

be disastrous. And he has, just in general,

14:51

I think it's frustrating to get this across

14:53

to people, he

14:56

says that he's going to fight

14:58

the inflationary, the Biden-flation, right? His policies

15:00

are going to stop inflation, but every

15:02

policy he has is inflationary. Extending

15:05

the Bush tax cuts is inflationary, fewer immigrants

15:07

into the country is inflationary because

15:09

that affects the number of people

15:12

that we have in the workforce. Tariffs

15:14

are obviously inflationary. So is

15:17

there a way to make that message for

15:19

Biden? I think it's kind of a tough message

15:21

for Biden to actually implement in a

15:23

campaign setting but to me, maybe

15:25

that's something for Nikki Haley voters that we can

15:27

use. And then as someone

15:30

who has feelings and compassion, the

15:33

deportation plans are absolutely insane.

15:37

And he goes along every step the reporter asks

15:39

him, he's like, well, would you call in the

15:41

National Guard? Yes. Would you call

15:43

in the military? Yes. How are

15:45

you actually going to implement this? Local

15:47

police forces, we're going to have local

15:49

cops being our deportation troopers.

15:53

And if a local police force

15:55

doesn't want to be part of the Donald

15:57

Trump deportation effort,

16:00

where he specifically cites Operation Wetback, then

16:02

he's like, well, then we'll stop funding

16:04

them. Like, we're gonna not give funds

16:06

to police, you know, to local police,

16:08

you know, so we're gonna defund the

16:10

police that will not

16:13

do illegal deportations. So,

16:15

I mean, obviously, I think that is the most

16:17

alarming. And the thing that I

16:19

would be also the most scared about

16:21

being actually implemented if he were to

16:23

win, because he, it's the one area

16:25

where he already has a team of competent

16:27

sociopaths around him, led by Stephen Miller, who

16:29

would be able to execute on it. Yeah,

16:31

and they already, by the way, you know,

16:33

when they did family separation, it

16:35

was pushed

16:37

back from what you

16:39

could call the old guard inside the

16:42

administration, plus congressional Republicans, plus political pressure,

16:45

ordinary political pressure that caused them

16:47

to at least, you know, sort of second

16:49

guess what they were doing. I don't think

16:51

those guardrails exist in a second term.

16:54

No, I mean, and you could

16:56

see like that great, I forget who wrote

16:58

it, I feel like I should credit her,

17:01

but the great Atlantic profile that went in

17:03

so deep into the child separation and how

17:05

it actually happened, like the TikTok of it,

17:07

what it revealed was it really only took

17:10

Stephen Miller sessions and there was one

17:12

other person who were adamant about it

17:14

and who just kept pushing and pushing

17:16

it, every restraint in

17:18

the bureaucracy. And

17:21

so if you now just imagine a

17:23

situation where those bureaucratic restraints

17:26

are, you know, mostly excise to the schedule F

17:28

changes that they've talked about and they've, and they,

17:30

instead of just having two or three people who

17:32

are like really get off on child separation, you

17:34

have like three or four times more of that,

17:36

you know, to get brought in because

17:38

they've done a more thorough vetting job of

17:41

staff to ensure that they're fully on board

17:43

with these deportation plans. I

17:45

mean, I think that it's really, is really

17:47

scary and it's really kind of hard to calculate how

17:50

much more damage they could do to immigrants

17:52

and migrants. And

17:54

by the way, using schedule F to threaten people who

17:57

might otherwise have to go along. on

18:00

top of that, using the pardon power to

18:02

give cover to people who are worried that

18:04

they're doing something that's illegal. And I think

18:07

that's the most pernicious thing about his pardoning.

18:09

You know, about how I'm going to pardon

18:11

all the January 6 folks. Last time I

18:13

pardoned Bannon, I pardoned Manafort. Now he basically

18:16

would be sending a signal to, you know,

18:19

the shock troops, as Bannon calls them, that

18:21

like they can go ahead and not worry

18:23

if they're running afoul of

18:25

various immigration laws while they execute

18:28

these deportations, because if some, you

18:30

know, rogue liberal judge that Joe

18:32

Biden appointed or some prosecutor

18:34

goes after them, Trump will just pardon them.

18:36

So I think the combining of the pardon

18:38

with the Schedule F, I think like really

18:40

creates a very different environment for them in

18:42

a second term. So I'm

18:44

glad you pulled out the tariffs

18:46

and immigration. I think

18:48

the immigration policy is absolutely horrifying, but I do

18:51

want to get mercenary

18:54

about it. One

18:57

of the challenges, right, is you want to tell

18:59

people on imports, right? Hey, if

19:01

Trump puts a 10% tariff on all these

19:03

imports, it's actually going to cause the kind

19:05

of inflation that's been bothering you for years.

19:08

But I do think the problem is that a lot of people sort

19:11

this into a made

19:13

in America, American manufacturing

19:15

bucket, rightfully so. But

19:19

I worry a little bit that when we fight

19:21

back against that

19:24

kind of a policy, it's tough to do because you

19:26

end up sound, you don't want to sound like a

19:28

2000s era Democrat talking about

19:31

how good NAFTA is going to be. And

19:34

then you got Ross Perot talking about the sucking

19:37

sound of American jobs. How

19:39

do you talk about a policy that I have a

19:41

feeling, at the very least,

19:43

is one that like maybe

19:46

people have mixed feelings about because they

19:48

do worry about manufacturing and

19:50

they do want jobs to be in the U.S.? Yeah, and

19:52

Joe Biden kept it a lot of his tariffs, right? And

19:55

he doesn't have a clean message on that.

19:57

To me, I think it's a negative message.

20:00

That. Is specifically targeted towards my people. like

20:02

the Haley voters, the former republicans right? That's

20:04

like I don't know maybe this is mayor

20:06

running these ads just on breath air shower.

20:08

Something at us are in the Wall Street

20:10

Journal butts. I think if you combine that

20:12

that eight Trump was actually pretty. been to

20:14

Bb to an hour to get into that

20:16

stuff later but Trump was pretty harsh on

20:18

Israel I don't think can be seen as

20:20

reliable partner for Israel's They send his comments

20:22

this interview at the Terrorists you combine the

20:24

threats to take out of Nato. You know

20:26

this is Alice you'd segment of the population

20:28

but I think that you can micro target.

20:30

Some people in the Atlanta silly burbs you

20:32

know that have been traditional republican voters that

20:34

also responsive to the democracy message he could

20:36

layer on top of that disguise can do

20:38

a ten percent to they do. I go

20:40

back for that. Pro: like that the ten

20:42

percent tax on terror of their assigned to

20:44

it like I went like this is gonna

20:46

be harm others As you know anti market

20:48

is going to increase costs so I think

20:50

it's more useful for that group to use

20:53

it to say to like working class people

20:55

that are worried about prices a grocery store

20:57

other now it feels like a bank shot

20:59

and at the campaign. Pry of better arguments.

21:02

He was all over the place on.

21:04

His. Own house and hims all over the place. On

21:07

B B, it's actually very hard to figure out what

21:09

he's even saying that this is is always the problem

21:11

and anyone tries to kind of. I

21:13

don't know. mediate what Trump says into something

21:15

coherent that did the and about us on

21:17

a judgment of the of the journalists at

21:20

a Piece to the Peace like they're like

21:22

he is contradictory and I do things like.

21:24

That. The reporter really does follow ups

21:26

and push back and come back to Thanks Trump

21:29

is just. You. Know he's just it's

21:31

it's santa your fingers but he's but

21:33

just it. Here's what he said. About.

21:35

Whether or not there should be a two state solution. Most.

21:38

people thought it was going to be a two

21:40

state solution i'm not sure to it's a solution

21:43

anymore as gonna work everybody was talking about two

21:45

states even when i was there i was saying

21:47

what do you like year deal like to states

21:49

now people are going back to it depends where

21:52

you are everyday changes now if israel making progress

21:54

they don't want to states they want everything and

21:56

of israel's not making progress sometimes they talk about

21:58

two state solution to say solution seemed to be

22:00

the idea that people liked most, the policy or

22:03

the idea that people liked above. Do

22:05

you like it? Says the reporter. It depends

22:07

when. There was a time when I

22:09

thought two states could work. Now I think two states is

22:11

going to be very, very tough. I think it's going to

22:13

be much tougher to get. I also think you have fewer

22:15

people that like the idea. You had a lot of people

22:17

that liked the idea four years ago. Today you have far

22:19

fewer people that like the idea. He

22:22

goes on to mention that Sheldon Adelson was

22:24

against two states, I think, later on at

22:26

a different digression. We're not sending our best

22:28

here. You

22:31

mentioned this a few minutes ago. It's

22:33

not just about what he's promising. It's how he's promising to

22:36

implement it. Trump learned a lot

22:38

of bad lessons during

22:40

the first term, including

22:42

the danger of being surrounded by anyone

22:45

who has their own reputation to protect.

22:48

What jumped out at you in

22:50

terms of how differently he'd

22:53

go about a second term? He talks about

22:55

how he wouldn't wait for people to quit

22:57

now. He'd fire them. You

22:59

mentioned schedule F. What jumped out at you? To

23:06

me it's really that litmus test thing just

23:08

because it's so insane. We

23:14

say this. It's almost cliche to be like,

23:16

oh, it's a cult. It is

23:18

kind of a cult. In

23:21

order to join this administration,

23:23

you have to at least pay

23:25

lip service to denying reality. That

23:29

sets a tone. It sets

23:31

a tone with the pardons. It sets a tone for

23:33

the existing people that they know that they could be

23:35

fired, where it's like now you have to watch yourself.

23:38

I might have told this on this podcast before. I

23:40

forget, but I had a friend that was working at

23:42

the RNC that was one of the quote unquote good

23:44

ones who stuck around. He was a lifer at the

23:46

RNC. On a couple conference calls,

23:49

he's like, I don't know about this thing Mr. Trump

23:51

is saying. It's a little crazy. I

23:53

don't know that the RNC needs to echo this. He

23:55

did it like two or three times. Jared

23:57

Kushner was out on any of these calls. And

24:00

he gets a call from Jared Kushner out of the blue

24:02

one day. He's like, are you good? Are we all good?

24:04

Is everybody on the same page? And

24:06

that kind of mafioso attitude,

24:10

which they had in the first term,

24:13

but they didn't know how to implement.

24:15

I think if you just listen to him

24:17

now, that's the one thing where it's like,

24:20

they've got a handle on that now. They

24:22

might have people around who aren't true believers,

24:24

but they're going to be the types of

24:26

people who are sociopathic enough to not

24:29

ever reveal that they're not a true believer. Yeah.

24:32

I also think it does something else that's

24:34

also pernicious, which is

24:37

it makes signing on to

24:39

be part of this administration a door

24:42

that locks behind you. Ronna

24:44

McDaniel thought that she was clean

24:47

because everybody knew wink, wink, she

24:49

wasn't a real Trump person. She

24:51

just became one on television. Even

24:55

NBC higher up executives thought, oh, they

24:57

sorted her into the serious old

25:00

school Republican bucket, not the Magma

25:02

Maniac bucket. But because she had

25:04

done so much to defend the lie, there

25:07

was enough of an uproar that made it impossible

25:09

for her to be treated like a, be

25:12

part of polite society. And so

25:14

now you say to these people, if you want to

25:16

be part of Trump world, you've got to sign on

25:18

to this. He

25:22

takes away people's escape ramp. And I do think that

25:24

that makes people more beholden to him, which I also

25:26

think is part of this. Totally agree.

25:28

The other piece of this

25:30

is there are a lot of people thinking

25:32

very hard around Trump, not Trump, about

25:35

how he can better use federal power.

25:38

I saw a blast from the past

25:40

phrase, the unitary executive theory back

25:42

from the Bush administration. They also

25:45

talk about trying to get the president

25:47

more authority to not spend

25:49

money Congress has appropriated, right?

25:52

This would be for everything from not sending money

25:54

to the police to not funding social safety net

25:57

programs. Did any of that come

25:59

out to you? It's not been a good

26:01

quarter century for the Libertarians among us. I'm

26:04

actually an Exeteri Executive there. Look,

26:08

it did. And I think that, again, when I talk to...

26:14

My old friends don't talk to me anymore, because

26:17

there's the betrayal, obviously. Some

26:19

of the MAGA folks will

26:21

talk to me, though,

26:23

because they just, whatever, they always saw

26:25

me as an enemy. And the

26:28

one of them, as an enemy

26:30

within, and now I'm an enemy without, in some ways

26:33

I'm less threatening. And so when

26:35

I talk to them, this is what they talk

26:37

about all the time, like that

26:39

they've had to have learned from the

26:41

first term, right? That consolidating

26:44

power within the executive, that there was a

26:46

lot of deferring, Trump didn't know any better.

26:48

Trump was not really happy to kind of

26:50

let Paul Ryan do the legislating and Mitch

26:53

McConnell. He had Paul and Mitch. He got

26:55

to do the fun stuff. They did the

26:57

dirty work, right? And the mindset

26:59

is totally different now. A couple quick things before

27:01

we go to break. Are you ready to get

27:04

into the good, the ad, and the ugly? In

27:07

the latest episode of Political Experts

27:09

React, Dan is joined by MSNBC

27:11

host Alex Wagner to break down

27:13

viral political ads from Gavin Newsom,

27:15

the Biden campaign, and Republican voters

27:17

against Trump to watch this

27:19

hit series, Type Pod Save

27:21

America, into the nearest YouTube search bar. Also

27:23

from Trump's hush money trial to some pivotal

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Supreme Court hearings, the last few weeks have

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31:26

at while Trump was apparently dozing

31:28

off in courts President Biden is

31:30

ministration were having a big we'd

31:32

Yesterday the Associated Press reported that

31:34

the Da is taking steps towards

31:36

reclassifying marijuana. Anonymous sources said that

31:38

Attorney General Merrick Garland were formerly

31:40

recommend moving marijuana from a schedule

31:42

one drug to schedule three drugs

31:44

that puts alongside our testosterone and

31:46

tylenol and and Garland recommendations will

31:48

trigger the sort of a long

31:51

process. But ah, given at seventy

31:53

percent of Americans support legalization, Seems.

31:55

Like. A great step. Yeah.

31:58

Is mutai Tembere How. going to light

32:00

a, you know, do a blunt together

32:02

right now to celebrate. Yeah. Look, man,

32:05

this has felt like a no brainer from the

32:07

start and that Joe Biden has been resisting. I

32:10

don't have any internal, you know, Joe Biden's a

32:12

teetotaler. Joe Biden's from a different era. I don't know if

32:14

you notice that. And so I think

32:16

that he has been

32:18

somewhat resistant to this. But I

32:21

guess a political matter, it is

32:23

fucking obvious just based on what has been

32:25

like, look at what happens on ballot

32:27

initiatives anywhere. I mean, like

32:29

in Missouri, they passed a

32:32

kind of marijuana decriminalization or

32:34

maybe it was

32:36

medical. But like, Missouri has moved

32:39

like basically into Alabama territory when

32:41

it comes to like voting for

32:43

Republicans, you know, and voting

32:45

for far right Republicans in blowout elections

32:48

and like on the same ballot, they

32:50

are voting for liberalizing

32:52

marijuana laws. So

32:54

it seems like a no brainer from that perspective. As

32:57

a motivation tool, I do wonder, I guess maybe

32:59

I'd throw that question back on you. Like, is

33:01

it kind of too late? Like to you, like,

33:03

it was like a period like in 2015, it'd

33:06

be like, let's get the youth excited by

33:08

talking about legalizing marijuana. I don't know that

33:10

the youth really care about that anymore. Yes.

33:13

Well, I think part of the problem is that, well,

33:15

it depends on where the youth are. Right. And

33:18

also it depends on what this what act, what this actually

33:20

does. You know, we just live in this endless morass where

33:23

when President Biden does something, even something good, even

33:25

something that progresses, I've been calling on for a

33:27

while, it takes a long time and they don't

33:29

feel the effects right away. Like California. Kind of

33:31

like a weed gummy. Exactly like

33:33

a weed gummy. You don't know when it's going to hit. And then all of a

33:35

sudden you feel pretty good. But it's like

33:37

two hours after he ate us. You almost forget who,

33:40

you almost forget why. But the, because

33:43

right, like in a lot of places, weed

33:45

is pretend legal. Everyone pretends legal. Weed is

33:47

legal in California, even though it is still

33:49

a schedule one drug. And

33:52

then there will be a lot of places where even if it is reclassified,

33:55

there won't be recreational weed because

33:58

it's a state state question. I

34:00

remember that I was

34:02

reflecting on something, which is, I

34:04

think we owe certain

34:07

old school conservative pundits from

34:10

the 90s an apology, because I

34:12

vividly remember Robert Novak.

34:16

Robert Novak was a curmudgeonly conservative

34:21

television pundit. I remember there

34:23

was this debate about medical marijuana, and one

34:25

by one, everyone around the Meet the Press

34:27

table was talking about how it was a

34:29

good step, and it helps people who have

34:32

illnesses. Yes, weed isn't what

34:34

it was in the 1960s, and this is

34:36

supported, blah, blah, blah. Then they

34:38

get to Robert Novak, and he goes, this is the

34:40

hippies. This is what the

34:43

hippies are doing. This is the hippies' revenge. They've

34:45

been trying to get legal marijuana. This is

34:47

a gateway, and I don't support it. I

34:49

don't support legal marijuana. I don't support legal

34:51

drugs, and I don't support the hippies. I

34:54

just want to say that was what was

34:56

happening. Medical marijuana was a

35:00

gateway to getting to legal marijuana

35:02

recreationally. I think deep down we

35:04

all knew that at the time, and you were

35:06

being gaslit. You're dead now,

35:08

Robert Novak, but nevertheless. You

35:10

were right about that in dead. Well, you're wrong in the

35:12

merits of the policy, but you were right that it was

35:14

a gateway. There's a similar example to this. I was walking

35:16

into Jazfest last week, and there was some young progressives, kind

35:18

of multi-hair

35:22

colored, look at me and maybe

35:24

think, maybe I could be somebody that could win over

35:26

on the issue of gay rights. I don't know. I

35:28

guess I wasn't dressed gay enough that day.

35:30

We signed this petition to help

35:32

support the gay agenda. I

35:35

was like, my old instincts came back

35:37

out. I was like, wait a minute. There's no

35:39

gay agenda. In fact, conservatives are always

35:41

like, the gays have an agenda. We're always like,

35:43

no, what are you talking about? No, we just

35:45

want equal rights. There's no gay agenda. Turned out

35:47

there was a gay agenda, actually. Once we got

35:50

the rights, we were free to talk about it.

35:52

So, marijuana, it was a gateway. In

35:54

the gays, we did have an agenda. The

35:56

90s Republican pundits were right about that.

35:59

Yeah. They said what was coming. One

36:02

other note on this. This is from the AP

36:04

report, which is, once OMB,

36:06

the Office of Management and Budget, signs

36:09

off, the DEA will take public comment

36:11

on the plan to remove marijuana from

36:13

its current classification following a

36:15

recommendation from the Federal Health and Human

36:17

Services Department after the public comment period

36:19

and a review by a administrative judge,

36:21

the agency would eventually publish

36:23

the rule. Hey, Tim.

36:25

Make a marijuana bubble. Maybe

36:28

we do need a Trump's cleansing

36:30

bureaucratic fire. Yeah, I

36:33

mean, I do think we could probably get

36:35

rid of a few bureaucrats. I do. I

36:38

maintain that view. I do have to say it. All right.

36:40

I'm discussing. I'm talking with Josh Shapiro

36:42

here in a few hours. And one

36:45

thing I want to ask him, which I'm excited to hear,

36:47

is, like, you know, I-95 collapses.

36:49

I'm like, it's fixed in two days. It's fixed

36:51

in two days. And I'm like, over in California,

36:54

they've been trying to build a train for like

36:56

20 years now. Like, we

36:58

spent $800 million, and we haven't even put down

37:00

any tracks, you know, because we have CEQA.

37:02

And so, I don't know. Yeah. I

37:05

think we could get legalized pot and trains and

37:07

roads that work a little bit faster, just a little bit

37:09

faster. We can have a couple of bureaucrats still. I don't

37:11

want to fire too many people, but I don't know. Maybe

37:14

do less. How about do less bureaucrats? Well,

37:16

how about do more faster and cheaper? Or

37:18

do less. Yeah, do less review.

37:21

I want to do more faster. I want to

37:23

do more faster and cheaper. For the record. If

37:26

there is any place where we could move faster,

37:28

it was not to gut the government, 2010 era

37:33

Tim Miller style. All right? Okay.

37:36

I could be on board of either, I guess I'm saying. Do

37:38

less or do more faster. Well, for

37:40

those to be fine, then

37:42

doing more, much slower, slalier.

37:47

I do think Biden being out there

37:49

on marijuana ultimately. I

37:51

think that put aside

37:54

the policy taking time

37:56

and the fact that, to your

37:58

point, it does feel like weed

38:01

has legalized itself. I

38:04

do think that there is value to having, like I

38:06

think for people who know that this policy is just

38:10

completely indefensible, I would like to see President

38:12

Biden saying that I'm out there trying to

38:14

do this. And by the way, I've taken

38:16

steps on behalf of people that

38:18

have been locked up for nonviolent marijuana offenses. I

38:20

think that that's all really positive. Yeah, we've been

38:23

joking about this, but it is the criminal justice

38:25

side of this is serious. Weed

38:27

might be legal in our hearts as like

38:29

rich whites, but it is still a

38:31

problem for people

38:36

that have less advantages and there

38:38

are still people in jail for

38:40

weed crimes. And so on that side of things,

38:42

I think that is a good argument to make.

38:45

And maybe that can be more motivating also to

38:47

progressives when it's framed that way and less about

38:49

like smoking

38:51

spliffs or whatever. Yeah, I think that's right.

38:53

I also just, it is like the

38:56

fact that we have had this quasi

39:01

legal status for so long is

39:03

it is so morally

39:05

bankrupt that we have people in jail in

39:07

one place, in the same place that we

39:09

have people walking into a store like it's

39:11

an Apple store. And the fact that we

39:13

have tolerated that, it does to

39:15

me, it's outrageous and we could

39:18

talk about it at Nausea, but I do think it speaks to

39:20

like a

39:23

larger conversation, but like how does the society

39:25

become kind of soft enough that

39:27

Trump can sneak in? Well, I think part of

39:29

it is being the kind of place that

39:32

is willing to overlook those kinds of injustices. I'm snapping

39:34

at you, like I'm in the New York Times break

39:36

room. Please do, please

39:38

do. Speaking of the youth, overnight,

39:41

a lot of developments in

39:43

the campus protest movement in New York, NYPD

39:46

officers in riot gear and

39:48

riding an armored vehicle moved in on Hamilton

39:50

Hall. The Zionists

39:52

have taken back Hamilton Hall while

39:55

protesters that occupied it and barricaded it officers

39:58

also cleared an encampment at city Collins. Nearly

40:00

300 people were arrested according to a very

40:02

satisfied Eric Adams. A lot

40:04

is happening everywhere, Tulane, Yale, University of

40:07

Wisconsin, here in LA. There was an

40:09

ugly physical altercation between pro-Palestinian protesters at

40:11

UCLA who had fortified their encampment with

40:13

plywood barriers and a group of what

40:16

appeared to be pro-Israel counterprotesters trying to

40:18

tear down those barriers and throwing things

40:20

into the encampment. There's disturbing video out

40:22

there of the two sides

40:24

fighting. Eventually the police arrived and separated the

40:27

groups. Tim, you made a version of

40:29

this point last night. It is

40:31

what I think is probably a very popular

40:33

but quieter sentiment, which is basically the

40:36

fact that there is a lack of space in this

40:38

debate for people who are opposed to the war, believe

40:40

the Palestinians deserve freedom and self-determination,

40:42

opposed to perpetuating a famine, murdering

40:44

civilians, opposed to the anti-Semitism and

40:47

Islamophobia around these protests, and opposed,

40:49

and this is a quote of

40:51

yours, opposed to militarized police marching

40:53

on the Portlandia Quad like they're

40:55

invading Fallujah. I

41:01

was glad to see you had a back and forth with Mehdi Hassan, who

41:03

we had on Love or Leave It last week.

41:07

The fact that I think that there was so much

41:09

comedy between the two of you, I think, speaks to

41:11

the fact that there

41:14

really hasn't been that space during

41:16

this moment, in part because I think Republicans don't

41:18

want it to be. They want to talk about the

41:20

chaos. They want to exploit this. I also

41:22

think the media owns this. I think Democrats

41:25

own this, and the students themselves, by the

41:27

way, who have agency and are ought

41:29

to be held responsible for their words

41:31

and their actions. How

41:33

do we make space for that kind of a dialogue,

41:35

which is, I think, clearly what's needed?

41:38

Yeah, we're doing it right now. Here we are.

41:42

Look, I think that there are a lot of people

41:44

that are afraid to say that they really think about this. I

41:46

have to tell you, we just

41:48

did this talking about MAGA and talking about the Trump

41:50

administration, how they're trying to create a world. I came

41:53

from a world where a lot of my former friends

41:55

have real thoughts about Trump that they will tell me

41:57

after a couple of beers, or that they used to.

42:00

they won't say out loud, they won't say

42:02

on Twitter. And I feel

42:04

like there are a lot of people that have the views

42:06

about this conflict and these protests. And

42:09

I think that we need to make it

42:11

okay for people to express their views without

42:14

immediately going to ad hominem and saying, oh,

42:16

that means you're on BB's side, that means

42:18

you're on the terrorist side. Like, when it

42:20

comes to BB and when it comes to

42:22

Hamas, I think about it. Are you ever

42:24

on Reddit? You know the... From time

42:26

to time. You know the, am I the asshole Reddit

42:29

feed? Yeah. Right? So

42:31

am I the asshole? Somebody writes a story

42:33

about how they've been a jerk to their

42:35

colleague or something and then the responders can

42:38

say, you're an asshole or you're not an

42:40

asshole. But there are some situations where the

42:42

cometries respond, E-S-H, everybody sucks

42:44

here. And that's

42:46

how I feel about the Hamas

42:48

BB situation. Everybody sucks

42:50

here. Okay? Obviously not the

42:53

innocent people that have been killed or whether

42:56

they were in a kibbutz or whether they're in

42:58

Gaza. But when it comes to

43:00

the leadership of Israel, pretty

43:02

much everybody sucks here. When it

43:04

comes to Hamas who is still

43:06

holding hostages and still using

43:09

their own people as human shields, everybody

43:11

sucks here. And unfortunately, I feel that

43:13

way a little bit about the Columbia

43:15

situation where I think there

43:17

are many protesters who are very earnest in

43:20

their protest against the war. And

43:22

I think Mehdi, and this was part of

43:24

me and Mehdi's exchange yesterday where Mehdi's like,

43:26

well, Tim, the reason why they're not protesting

43:28

Hamas is because we're not giving weapons to

43:30

Hamas. And they're only

43:32

protesting Israel because that's where we

43:35

have some control in our

43:37

democratic government. I'm like, okay, I

43:39

guess that's fine. But it'd be nice to

43:41

have, if the protests also included some people

43:43

with signs that said, by the way, Hamas

43:45

sucks too. And unfortunately,

43:47

what I see in those protests are a

43:49

couple of people that have Hezbollah flags or

43:52

a couple of people that are like, Jews

43:54

should go back to Europe or America

43:56

where they came from, which is

43:58

just ahistorical or... glory

44:00

to our martyrs. All that

44:03

stuff makes me uncomfortable and that's

44:05

not to impugn everybody that has

44:07

very real earnest concerns about the

44:09

humanitarian crisis but I

44:11

would like to see a little

44:13

bit more, you know, if the goal

44:16

of these protests is, hey we need a ceasefire,

44:18

then we should also at least be expressing that

44:20

we're pretty upset about the main party that's preventing

44:22

us from a ceasefire right now which is Hamas.

44:26

And so anyway, that's why I'm kind of like

44:28

everybody sucks here when it comes to those protests

44:30

also and also the cops which

44:32

was and Eric Adams which is way

44:34

overkill and it's only in America and

44:37

third world countries. Like there's this is

44:39

not happening in Germany or in you

44:41

know Sweden if they're at their protest.

44:43

You know it's very nice officers with

44:45

little little batons like asking people to move

44:47

off the property. Like the idea they have

44:49

these fucking face masks like it's all it's

44:52

crazy. Yeah there's a there's somebody

44:54

this is not my observation but somebody

44:56

pointed out that you can track the

44:58

evolution of our militarization of police by

45:00

looking at the way the Lego policeman

45:03

has changed over the years from

45:05

like a smiling kind of almost in

45:08

a postal uniform to basically now like

45:10

a soldier. Yeah. No I agree with

45:12

what you're saying. I also I do

45:15

think that like one of the ways

45:17

our brains are all collectively pickled from

45:19

years of political coverage that

45:21

treats everyone like a pundit is we

45:23

kind of bounce back and

45:25

forth almost without

45:28

noticing between what is sort

45:30

of morally righteous versus what

45:32

what is effective and

45:34

I and now I have nothing in both

45:36

right like you are correct like it is

45:38

both I think less effective and I think

45:41

less I think morally

45:44

defensible to not make

45:46

denouncing Hamas's holding of

45:48

hostage a part of what you're what

45:51

you're trying to protest but then

45:53

sometimes I also think just okay I don't

45:56

agree with a lot of what these protesters are saying I'm

45:58

sure I would find them quite annoying. However,

46:01

they have successfully drawn attention to

46:03

what is the urgent moral

46:07

crisis, half a world away, where children

46:09

and civilians are being killed, where there

46:11

seems to be no end in sight

46:13

to this conflict even as a ceasefire

46:15

is being negotiated. And then

46:18

I think, well, you know what? It

46:20

doesn't really matter that I disagree with what

46:24

these protesters are saying on the

46:26

larger issue or the fact that

46:28

I find the ramifications of their

46:30

views abhorrent because what it

46:32

would actually mean to achieve what

46:34

they claim to be their goals.

46:36

I find it abhorrent because what

46:38

they are actually protesting right now

46:40

is something I completely agree

46:42

with, which is the inhumane and despicable conduct

46:45

of this war. And I don't want to

46:47

be a person who makes the

46:49

same mistake that a lot of people make when

46:51

they look at a protest, which is get

46:54

sucked into a debate over its

46:56

tactics and methods rather than putting

46:58

aside the longer term problems with the BDS

47:00

movement or the ways in which I disagree

47:03

with it, but rather what are they drawing

47:05

attention to and are they right to do

47:07

it? Yeah, I'm

47:09

with that. I get it. I think about that

47:11

for sure. And

47:13

maybe you could argue there's been some success there

47:15

and the fact that there's some more food

47:19

trucks are getting in, would that

47:21

have happened without the protest? I don't know. Would

47:23

that have happened without the protest? It's hard to do

47:25

that counterfactual. I will say this though. There's

47:27

just not another situation for a group

47:29

besides Jews where it would be acceptable

47:33

in polite liberal society to

47:36

hold a protest where people are

47:39

just, where there are

47:41

members of the protest that are

47:43

dehumanizing and personally attacking people from

47:46

a specific religious or ethnic group.

47:49

It's hard to imagine that being acceptable

47:51

in liberal society for targeting

47:53

any group except for Jews. And

47:55

so I just like, there feels like there

47:57

should be a way. protest,

48:00

right? There are going to be a lot of people out there, you

48:02

can not pick one sign. Sure.

48:06

There's no way to totally control every protestor's

48:08

sign or chant. And there have been some

48:10

gross chants from the pro-Jewish counterprotesters, by the

48:12

way. But at a broader enough

48:15

level, there's a certain group that doesn't feel safe

48:17

and they feel like they're being attacked. There

48:20

would be more widespread condemnation about that. I think

48:22

if that's other groups, and I think that's upset

48:25

a lot of Jewish people and a lot of

48:27

people that are allies of Jewish folks or just

48:29

observers of the situation. I agree

48:32

with that. And now the response is, well,

48:36

there are also Jewish students who are part of these protests.

48:38

But I think that

48:40

the issue is, why? Why

48:43

does this happen? Even if most of the

48:45

protesters, while saying things that I

48:47

think ultimately

48:51

would resort into a cataclysm

48:53

for millions of Jewish people

48:55

in Israel, they're

48:58

not shouting anti-Semitic statements. They're not

49:00

shouting slurs. But people

49:02

that do do that are drawn to the

49:04

outskirts or are inside of these protests. We

49:06

saw one of the leaders in Columbia, which

49:08

has also gotten an absurd amount of attention,

49:11

but nevertheless saying

49:14

horrible things came

49:16

to attention, shocking that that person

49:20

was walking around until

49:23

it drew national embarrassment for the school.

49:27

But I do think that that's a

49:29

question, right? Why does this draw this

49:31

kind of anti-Semitism? And I think it

49:33

is because this line between anti-Zionism and

49:36

anti-Semitism is a hard one to draw.

49:38

And I see it myself where you

49:41

see this word Zionist being thrown at

49:43

people in a way that it

49:45

does get my back up because it's so quick

49:48

to be thrown as a slur.

49:51

And so I just, in the end, it's just

49:53

like, this is really fucking hard. Yeah, it's a

49:55

liberal Zionist. Look, I have a lot of friends

49:57

like this that are in Israel that are Israel'sitis

50:00

that we're in the streets protesting Bibi that

50:02

believe Israel has a right to exist, that

50:04

love Tel Aviv as just a beautiful city.

50:06

That's a very gay city, by the way,

50:09

a really diverse city and have moved there

50:11

and love being there. And they

50:13

protested Bibi. They do not like the Lukud government, but

50:15

they believe Israel has a right to exist and

50:18

they dress visibly Jewish. And

50:21

they have the Star David necklace or whatever. And

50:25

they're being treated like shit by

50:28

their friends, like on social media and

50:30

by some of these protesters. They're being

50:32

treated terribly. And so yeah,

50:34

sure, they're anti-Zionist Jews that are part of

50:36

the protest, but like that

50:38

group, they didn't do anything wrong. They're

50:41

not bombing Hamas. Their friends

50:43

or relatives or acquaintances

50:45

got killed by Hamas. And

50:48

all they're trying to say is we have a right to exist

50:50

too. And we want

50:52

to have a right to exist peacefully. And

50:54

we want the Palestinians to be able

50:56

to get aid. Those

51:00

people aren't doing anything wrong. And

51:02

they're being treated very poorly by the protesters.

51:04

Is that the acute problem? Are

51:07

their feelings as important as the dead Palestinian

51:09

kids? Of course not. That's why you

51:11

always have to caveat. That's why you have this conversation. Every

51:14

time you say that, yeah, yeah, everyone sucks here. A lot

51:16

of people are getting screwed here, but it's worth saying though.

51:18

I think it's worth saying for another reason,

51:20

which forget the tone policing in addition to

51:23

the baton policing that's going on.

51:26

I think it matters not just because of

51:28

how it makes people feel, but

51:30

my sincere view, which I've expressed many

51:32

times in various forms on this and

51:35

other podcasts, is that the

51:37

most effective way that advocating,

51:41

chanting from the river to the sea, making

51:44

it this struggle

51:46

between colonialists and anticolonialists, none

51:48

of it puts actual peace

51:51

for actual human beings closer.

51:53

And actually I think if

51:55

it is effective, it puts those

51:57

things farther away because there's no

51:59

answer. to this problem that

52:02

involves ratifying those kinds of ideas. They are far

52:05

from it. And that to me I do think

52:07

is important. And not just because I don't like

52:09

what they're saying, I don't like how it makes

52:11

people feel, how Americans currently feel is not the

52:14

most important thing. I think it is because the

52:16

larger struggle, that peace

52:18

in this larger struggle requires rejecting those kinds

52:20

of ideas. Yeah. You

52:22

just have me on, you just wanna just peel

52:24

away the onion and just, you know, you're like,

52:26

I wanna bring up tariffs, I

52:29

wanna dunk on progressive protestors,

52:31

like let's talk about, dude, motor, you're just, every

52:33

time I'm on, Don't characterize it that way. You're

52:35

trying to do it. Don't fucking characterize it that

52:37

way. You're doing it for, you're intentional. I get

52:39

it, that's fine, I'm happy to do it. I'm

52:41

happy to be your little, I don't know, token.

52:44

Okay. Pods

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55:03

One last crass political question

55:05

about the situation, which is Republicans

55:08

like this. They like the chaos. They

55:11

like trying to drive a wedge between Democrats

55:14

and their Jewish constituency. How worried about it?

55:17

And what would you do about it? Many

55:19

constituencies, not just the Jewish constituency, youth, Arab.

55:25

Just broadly people of color, I think. There's a

55:27

lot of folks that have genuine unhappiness and concerns

55:29

in the situation. It's a wedge. And

55:31

so, yeah, look, I think that the Republicans

55:34

do see this as a political opportunity. They

55:36

did not see any, with maybe the exception

55:38

of like the one or two random libertarians

55:40

who are in there. Our friend

55:42

Justin Mosch is gone, so maybe there aren't any good

55:44

ones left. They

55:47

don't mind seeing the cops with their batons

55:49

going in there and knocking some heads. They

55:52

think that's a winner for them. Donald

55:55

Trump once, I think,

55:57

bleated in the protest now.

56:00

there is no nuance here. You

56:02

know, Jared Kushner is talking about, you

56:04

know, building, building Mar-a-Lago, you know, on

56:06

the strip in Gaza. So

56:09

I think it's a winner across

56:11

the board. They might be right. And

56:13

I think that it's concerning, you know, it's

56:15

like, it is concerning if there are, you

56:18

know, young voter like, like Joe

56:20

Biden has a very fragile coalition,

56:22

which includes people that are quite

56:25

Israel sympathetic in the democratic coalition,

56:27

but also kind of the swing

56:29

voters, you know,

56:31

who left the Republican Party over

56:34

Trump that are not happy

56:36

with him. The young voters are in

56:38

his coalition, Dear board voters are in

56:41

his coalition. I mean, so he has

56:43

to navigate a very broad

56:45

and wide coalition that has very different

56:47

views on this. Republicans are

56:49

happy to take advantage of it.

56:52

Meanwhile, Donald Trump's coalition is like

56:54

mostly either pro Israel or totally

56:56

anti-Semitic. So it's a little bit

56:58

less, it's like less of a tightrope. Yeah,

57:01

well, that's it is, but

57:03

it's interesting that it is less of a tightrope because of

57:05

what you just said. But I do think what I was

57:07

getting at, right, is that, yes, this

57:09

is an issue that what

57:11

is happening in Gaza is

57:15

potentially alienating key constituents by the

57:17

needs like our voters

57:19

and young voters,

57:21

while at the same time, the

57:24

Republicans are trying to exploit the

57:26

protests without really regard for the

57:28

views of those young people or those

57:30

our voters in Dearborn, they're trying to

57:32

go for, they're

57:35

trying to kind of use the chaos, they're trying

57:37

to say that Jews are unsafe, right? They're trying

57:39

to go after that constituency specifically. For sure. Yeah.

57:41

And I think it's working. It's

57:43

alarming to me, but anecdotally

57:46

speaking, you know, this is

57:48

this 1%, is this 2%? I

57:50

don't want to overstate how big of the audience this is.

57:52

It's a pretty small demographic. But it

57:55

could be important in Atlanta, could be

57:57

important in Philly, which is,

57:59

you know, Wall Street Journal reading

58:02

conservatives who are either Jewish or

58:04

kind of have strong foreign policy

58:06

hawks that were turned off by

58:08

Trump because of his

58:10

dabbling in anti-semitism and because of his isolationism,

58:14

that you hear them saying anecdotally,

58:17

like, I don't know, I don't like

58:19

what's happening, Trump will defend us, maybe

58:21

I have to go back to Trump.

58:23

The whole Dan Sinner who works

58:26

for Paul Singer, who used to be a Never Trumper,

58:28

who is a big donor who went back to Trump.

58:30

Paul Singer is already back at Trump. It seems like

58:32

Dan is sympathetic to that. You

58:34

see this and I was

58:36

actually just with someone today who

58:39

said that they're friends, who's Jewish, who said that they're

58:41

friends, they have

58:44

friends that feel this way. So is that going

58:46

to change by November? You know, will cooler heads

58:48

prevail? Hopefully. But I do

58:50

think that there is a small demo

58:52

of group voters that were traditionally Republican,

58:54

that were gettable for Biden, that

58:57

are, you

58:59

know, that are starting to lean back towards Trump over

59:01

this. I find that asinine, just to be, I'll be

59:04

very clear, I find that asinine and insane that you

59:06

would, that on the issue of anti-semitism, you would go

59:08

back to the person that had lunch with Nick Fuentes

59:10

and Kanye. I find it ludicrous and

59:12

the extreme, but that doesn't mean that it's not

59:15

happening. So

59:17

Biden, there are also people trying to

59:19

lay what's happening on a campus in New York, on

59:21

a private university campus at Biden's feet, I think, often

59:24

in bad faith, but nevertheless, Biden has

59:26

a difficult square to circle

59:28

here. He needs to assuage the

59:30

concerns of that part of

59:32

his coalition that is concerned about these

59:34

protests and where he had anti-semitism has

59:37

to assuage the concerns of people that

59:39

are deeply unhappy with his policy and

59:41

that requires a policy change that requires something to

59:43

actually shift on the ground for sure. But what

59:45

would you like to see Biden say if there's

59:47

anything he's not saying? And

59:50

this is going to be a very untimmed thing. This

59:52

is on the Podbro podcast. It should be you guys

59:55

saying this, but we could really use

59:57

Obama on this because it's so not he was

59:59

really good. at this stuff, like going out there

1:00:01

and talking. And this was this whole bit starting

1:00:03

in 04, like there are red

1:00:05

states and there are blue states. We can be,

1:00:08

we can think about the, we can be empathetic

1:00:10

towards the other side while also understanding the policy

1:00:12

ramifications. He was talented at this. Biden's like, that's

1:00:14

not his strength, man. Like he's got strengths, but

1:00:16

like, that's not it. And I think that right

1:00:19

now there are people that are like, where is

1:00:21

he on this? And, and, and

1:00:23

a lot of what they've been doing has

1:00:25

been relegated to written statements, which are usually

1:00:27

pretty good, by the way. If you read

1:00:29

the Biden administration, White House's written statements,

1:00:31

they usually are very empathetic, very

1:00:33

nuanced, very thoughtful. But,

1:00:37

but they're not letting him loose on it.

1:00:40

And maybe for, maybe for good reason. I don't,

1:00:42

I think that it's a really, it's

1:00:44

dicey. And, but I do think that he needs to

1:00:46

speak out more. And you could speak out from first

1:00:48

principles. And the nice thing about having a speech at

1:00:50

a press conference is he could speak more just about

1:00:53

the thing, like you can be, the inverse

1:00:55

of my original statement, where we started this,

1:00:57

everything's an asshole. You can, you can be

1:00:59

the positive version of that, which is I'm

1:01:02

worried about Gaza. We're trying to get

1:01:04

food in. I'm worried about antisemitism on

1:01:06

campuses in America. We should have that

1:01:09

stopped. I'm worried about free speech rights.

1:01:11

Kids shouldn't be getting knocked over by police

1:01:13

officers when they're at, you know, I saw,

1:01:16

he could do that, but it's

1:01:18

not, there's going to be people he doesn't please if he does

1:01:20

it, but it's probably, we'll

1:01:22

see. If it doesn't get any better, it's going to be

1:01:24

something he's going to have to figure out how to do.

1:01:26

Yeah. I think that's right. I do think that in moments

1:01:28

like this, when, when

1:01:30

the rhetoric is heated, when people are talking

1:01:33

past each other, and when

1:01:35

Republicans are trying to exploit it for the

1:01:37

chaos, I do think sometimes that does lower

1:01:39

the bar a little bit and turns just

1:01:41

stating first principles, sort of where we started

1:01:43

this conversation into something that

1:01:45

I think is calming and relieving and actually goes

1:01:48

a long way. Before we let you go, Tim,

1:01:51

Vice President Kamala Harris went

1:01:54

on Drew Barrymore show on Monday, talked about

1:01:56

a wide range of topics. But

1:02:00

at this moment, I don't think you've seen

1:02:02

it, and I think we'd like to get your live reaction. I

1:02:04

have not. I've been thinking that we

1:02:06

really all need a tremendous hug in the

1:02:08

world right now, but in our

1:02:10

country, we need

1:02:12

you to be mamala of the country. Oh.

1:02:27

They made me very uncomfortable. They made me very

1:02:29

uncomfortable. They made Kabbalah very uncomfortable. I know, I

1:02:31

like that. I like this thing. What is going on?

1:02:33

Like, isn't she about to touch me? It's,

1:02:37

everybody, we don't need any

1:02:39

politician to be mom. We don't need to

1:02:41

be mamala. We don't need to be dadala. We

1:02:44

don't need a national dad. We don't need

1:02:46

any of that shit. It's

1:02:48

a city where they go to

1:02:51

write laws and regulations and

1:02:53

to implement policies that

1:02:55

affect our lives. They're not dad.

1:02:58

They're not mom. I hate that

1:03:01

shit. Me too. We need a

1:03:03

head of government. By the way, this

1:03:05

was like, this is fundamentally American, love

1:03:07

it, that where you're gonna get. Like,

1:03:09

this is John Adams wanted to name

1:03:12

the president his excellency or some shit,

1:03:14

and George Washington was like, fuck that.

1:03:16

Mr. President. Mr. President, we

1:03:18

could have a Mrs. President, hopefully soon.

1:03:20

That's it. They're one of us. They're

1:03:23

of the people. We do not need a mom.

1:03:26

They're not like the royal family. They

1:03:28

don't need to be anything special. That

1:03:30

does bother, I'm with you on that.

1:03:32

Also the touching. Also

1:03:34

the touching. Because you had a moment

1:03:36

where Carrie Lake touched you. It was very similar. It

1:03:38

was kind of similar. It was kind of similar. I

1:03:41

don't mind if you touch me on the shoulders. I

1:03:43

don't know. Drew is kind of the good

1:03:45

angel version of Carrie. It's like the same

1:03:48

energy, but like the light versus the darkness

1:03:50

kind of with Carrie or Drew. But they

1:03:52

both did the double hand thing. Yeah,

1:03:55

too much. You can touch me on my

1:03:57

shoulder. We can hug, but there's something about

1:03:59

the full. like eight

1:04:01

fingers. Remember when George W. Bush

1:04:04

lost himself for a second and tried to give Angela

1:04:06

Merkel like a shoulder rub? He got got it. It

1:04:08

was just like he like mischaracterized this like he just

1:04:11

he just did something he might do like to a

1:04:13

relative or a loved one But he just he just

1:04:15

like kind of as he was passing gave her a

1:04:17

quick shivers Like I've

1:04:19

never seen a person shiver The other piece

1:04:21

of this too is like politics is emotional

1:04:24

because it's serious and the stakes are very

1:04:26

very high But we actually

1:04:28

don't need these figures to assuage It's

1:04:31

actually the mirror of the people people

1:04:33

who say like they don't find Joe Biden

1:04:36

inspiring. Okay It's funny. I

1:04:38

get wanting Joe Biden to inspire other people

1:04:40

because you want politics to have outcomes But

1:04:43

you don't need to be inspired because

1:04:45

if you say I want to be inspired It's

1:04:47

a little bit like I don't know like Louis

1:04:49

the 14th being like bring me a show I'd

1:04:51

like to see something bring me bring me a

1:04:54

lovely cake and a show It's like that's not

1:04:56

what this is about like if you're feeling worried

1:04:58

and anxious about politics It's not

1:05:00

Kamala Harris's job to assuage you it might be

1:05:02

valuable for others But if it's

1:05:05

for you sort of should be an

1:05:07

embarrassing thing to request Yeah, go volunteer

1:05:09

if you ought to be inspired, you

1:05:11

know, go out in society and find

1:05:13

somebody inspiring That's not what the let

1:05:15

you know the head legislator of the country.

1:05:18

That's it's nice It's a

1:05:20

nice bonus You know if you get all

1:05:22

tingle up your leg with the president talks

1:05:24

like that's not that should be a bonus

1:05:26

You know a little cherry on top. That's

1:05:28

not a median requirement Yeah, the idea that

1:05:30

like and I get where it's just a very like I don't

1:05:32

know just a very Hollywood Oh the

1:05:34

country needs a hug right now. The country

1:05:36

doesn't need a hug So that's one of

1:05:39

those people me hugs from their loved ones

1:05:41

in their own private lives. The country needs

1:05:43

effective governance and

1:05:45

and to defeat a Despicable

1:05:48

Authoritarian movement the country needs hugs after

1:05:50

go watch Finding Forrester. That's nice. You

1:05:53

know, go find a girl watch a

1:05:55

movie about Young

1:05:57

man overcoming challenges, you know

1:06:00

Whatever find go find something that's fine. You don't

1:06:02

need a mom From

1:06:04

Kamala. I know this is we're very aligned

1:06:06

on this job of it. We're we're look

1:06:08

you and I we began

1:06:11

by Tim

1:06:15

Miller you know him from

1:06:18

the bulwark Send all

1:06:20

your negative comments at him as

1:06:23

always great to see a Tim and And

1:06:26

if you're the one person out there that agreed with all

1:06:28

my takes today the board I

1:06:34

spent an hour for you. All right,

1:06:36

John. I miss you and if Tim is in

1:06:38

your cup of tea Don't worry Dan and John

1:06:40

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1:06:45

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1:07:00

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